Ammo management

What system are you using

>>49044213
go to
>>>/k/
for a month, develop frightening levels of autism regarding weapons, go from there.
Or
Use real ammo to count

>>49044365
An obscure system called Mutant Epoch. It's based on the earlier Gamma World.

>>49044401
/k sounds like the opposite of an enjoyable tabletop experience.

>>49044420
well i guess it all depends on how much detail you and your players are willing to go to.
If you want realism just use real world gun calibers .
If not i would say just use low caliber, Mid caliber and high caliber as ammo types.

>>49044213
Here's the most important advice on ammo management: make sure you're using a system that requires enough ammo to dispatch the enemies for ammo to matter. Some combat systems are so deadly and use up so little ammo, that you can campaign with 50 shots forever.

>>49044213
Use tallies to track ammo consumption of each type. Keep the tallies in parenthases next to a number representing the total count, periodically clear the tallies and update the count. It's easy as fuck.

You can break it down to tracking individual magazines this way if you feel like being a huge dick about it. That way players have to worry about both ammo types and magazine counts.

>>49044401
Nogunz detected

>>49044455
>tabletop
>hyper-realistic unless done by an extremely talented GM
>enjoyable
pick two

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>>49044455
They make for excellent worldbuilding inspiration though.

>>49044213
Do what METRO does.

Make ammunition the currency.

There's nothing players track better.

>>49044506
????
is it because counting ammo with reall ammo would be expensive in a game like Fallout?
Let me clarify
I mean count the number of rounds you will be taking with you, which should be a small amount, and keep them on the table until fired.
actual stockpiles should be just counted on paper.

>>49044213
as someone who frequesnts /k/, the best middle ground is probably splitting each into a few calibers so that your players weapon choices matter more.

don't go fucknuts with it, but common nato calibers would be a good split, and make sure you remember and enforce that SMGs usually use pistol-class cartridges.

example might be splitting rifle ammo into 5.56, 7.62, and .50 bmg

by doing the above it means you can make the .50 rounds for very heavy machineguns scarce and limit the heavy firepower of your party, while keeping generic 7.62 more readily available (in most rifles you can use .308 win and 7.62 nato interchangeably, so its pretty plentiful sateside as it's a common hunting caliber) and make 5.56 for things like military rifles medium-rare (inb4 AR15 crew complains, but buying decent 5.56 just walking into a shop is getting harder so its not out of reality)

you don't need much granularity, just enough to differentiate and make it so they need to be conscious of the choice.

>>49044524
If my experience with the game is anything to go by, the players will ignore ammunition alltogether and just get really good with throwing knives.

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>>49044213
You can use the default system's generic ammo types if you want, though it may cheapen it a bit of the players are always conveniently compatible with their particular gun, regardless of how rare that ammo is in real life.

I would personally just mark down common ammo types (9x19,.40S&W,.45ACP,.223,.308, etc, etc) and not treat the weapons any differently than they are stated in the rule book (An AR-15 and an AK-74 doing 2d6 despite using two different ammo types) so there's not too much crunch getting in the way and bogging things down.

Whether or not to use real calibers is more of thematic thing, if the game takes place in a fallout style setting then I'd say a mix of both, but if it's real life earth I recommend using actual calibers.

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>>49044213
Would those shells be considered live ammunition?

>>49044589
Throwing Knives can't destroy the brain of a zombie. Melee weapons, sure, but getting into melee with zombie hordes just requires one good roll from the DM.

How much ammo do you expect your Pc's to have? What one anon suggested, using literal ammo at the table, sounds like it would actually be a good idea. You use believable calibers and it gives the players something physical to fret over. I'd only use this for very small ammo counts though.

>>49044631
This, throwing knives will never be better than even a good sling shot.
relevant.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLxnNP-ycVQ

>>49044670
Not OP, but I don't want anyone to walk in on my gaming group laughing and talking about shooting people, with a table covered in fucking live ammunition. We had enough problems planning a shadowrun heist at school, with nothing more than dice and minis.

I'd probably use real world ammo types and maybe split it into pre apocalypse grade and shoddy wasteland reloads of spent brass. Give the home made higher jam chance or some such.

>>49044698
>Good
This man doesn't make GOOD slingshots.
He makes exceptional slingshots.

Though ypunraise a good point. Its all well and good forcing players to track ammo, but players are players. They will just invest time and effort into means that aren't guns to kill Zombies.

Such as elastic powered toilet brush cannons.

>>49044670
>How much ammo do you expect your Pc's to have?

I don't want to be stingy, but if they never ran out sometimes (or think twice about using their last few rounds) there really wouldn't be any reason to keep track of it at all.

>>49044743
i remember that, who would have thought?

>>49044751
>if they never ran out sometimes (or think twice about using their last few rounds) there really wouldn't be any reason to keep track of it at all.

The amount of ammunition remaining does matter if your system cares about things like burst-firing.

And it's a resource drain like anything else, which should matter in the post-apocalypse unless you're literally just running it as a weird western.

Although with the number of people the average PC kills each session, simply scavenging half-broken shit off enemies should make them pretty well off after a while. For that reason, you probably want to enforce encumbrance too, although I suggest using one of the OSR-style simplified encumbrance systems rather than tracking everything by the pound.

>>49044867
How unspecific of you.

>>49044896
i mean the toilet brushes, that is just bizarre to me.

>>49044995
Sharpen them up and give them enough thrust.

>>49044698
That's pretty amazing.

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>>49044213
Use pistol, rifle, and shotgun.

Get spent casings from a range, buy unloaded shotgun shells and ask them for empty boxes. Fill the ammo with Playdo for heft and a somewhat loaded appearance. Hand them out as players find them (you can cheat larger numbers by filling boxes with paper and just counting them en bloc).

So far, so dire. But you can take it further. For starters I'd wear some of the boxes a little with vinegar, sunlight, repeated humidity, sandpaper. Do the same to snack packs, soda cans, and MREs. Also age some canned tomatoes, beans, and spam. The players won't eat those but they still can be handed back for a replenishing meal, emptying the party bags. Oh yeah, tell the players to each bring a bag.

The bullets and shells can be worn as well. Try nothing them with a chisel or clogging the primer with sticky gunk. You can also get matching magazines, but a small box will do: have each player set their magazine with those bullets. And when they fire, have them hand back the bullets one by one. Now when you get a damaged one, roll for malfunction.

Please be aware that primer in unloaded shotgun shells is still a dangerous explosive and must be handled with a little caution. Instruct your players. It will add tension to the game.

Now get some flashlights, half empty extra batteries, maybe an old Gameboy with Tetris, pocket knifes and multitools, binoculars, etc.. Connect them all to some in game goody, like +1 repair or some such. Then hand them out when players find stuff. And turn out the light when it's night so the players have to use their flashlights to roll.

Or hand out toy guns with limited ammo strips.

>>49044576
Gamma World is future apocalypse, so modern calibers might not have any more validity than whatever the fuck they were using two hundred years ago. Given that a plethora of other gun types exist (lasers, blasters, needlers, slicers, magnetically-impelled slug throwers, black ray pistols, etc.), having a standardized pistol bullet might not be too crazy. That's assuming, of course, that Mutant Epoch has the same basic setting as Gamma World.

>>49046807
Well, old timey guns are just considered pre-apocalypse relics, but I see your point

>>49044213
go to a local shooting range.

ask them if you can have spent brass and cartridges.

use the brass as counters.

for more complexity you could divide it out such that
>a 9x19mm or .38 special cartridge is one shots worth of pistol ammo
>a .45 ACP is five shots worth
>a .500 supermag or .50 AE or .454 caull round is ten

do the same with rifles
>a 7.63x39mm or a 5.56x45mm or a .223 is one
>a .30-06 or a .30-30 is five
>any really large hunting round is 10

shot-shells can go by color

either that or you can get a whole bunch of poker chips and divvy them up between the players maybe glue little icons on them so you know whats what in terms of rifle, pistol, or shotgun ammmo.

with cases of specialty ammo(dragons breath shot-shells for example) you count that shit off carefully.

>>49048899
>>a 9x19mm or .38 special cartridge is one shots worth of pistol ammo
>>a .45 ACP is five shots worth

What do you mean by this? A .45 costs 5 times as much to shoot?

>>49048938
no, they're clearly bigger

I'm basically suggesting the use of counters.

a player declares an attack by throwing down however many shots-worth of ammo(in counters) before they roll dice

(at my locality)it's more like 3 times as expensive to shoot than 9mm but that depends on your local market.

>>49048938
He's saying the ammo could be used as physical tokens for keeping track of ammo, with some of it representing multiple number of rounds, 1, 5, and 10 respectively.

>>49048899
My question is where spent .22 brass falls on the spectrum.

>>49049022
probably should have that marked as singles of the most prevalent ammo moving one scale or other up the ladder

>>49049022
>>49049004
>>49048938
and I was suggesting that you pick up a bucket of spent brass to use as counters because they are thematically appropriate and frequently free to take away from the ranges...

I don't like using single bullets to represent a number of them. It takes out the whole resource management haptics and is little more than crossing off ammo boxes on a sheet.

When a player has six bullets in from of them they should FEEL how their character only has six shots left.

And if it's a zombie apocalypse make that 5 plus sleeping pill.

>>49049085
meh, it was just an idea for covering larger numbers of available rounds.

you could just as easily go 1:1 with necked rounds being for rifles, un-necked rounds for pistols and shells for shotguns

>>49044213
Keep things as simple as you can.
Light pistol ammo.
Heavy pistol ammo.
Light rifle ammo.
Heavy rifle ammo.
Shotgun shells (shot).
Shotgun shells (slug).

And that's it apart from the odd barrel loaded grenade or rocket.

For pistols, anything over .357 is Heavy. .357 Magnum should also count as Heavy.

SMGs use mostly light pistol rounds.

Most rifles use Light Rifle ammo, especially assault rifles that are less than 7.62. Anything larger is Heavy Rifle ammo.

Machine guns mostly use Heavy Rifle ammo (in reality, many use slightly different loads for the same caliber, but it's not worth it unless you're worried your players are going to hoard ammo for their HMGs). Miniguns use Light or Heavy Pistol ammo.

This isn't very realistic, but it will save you a ton of bookkeeping, and will make it easier for you to distribute ammo to your players so they can meet the challenges you want to throw at them.

If you want to simplify things even further, just create a variety of generic gun types and give them stats.

Hold-out revolver.
Hold-out semi-auto.
Light revolver.
Light semi-auto.
Heavy revolver.
Heavy semi-auto.
Machine pistol.

Submachine gun.

Double barrel shotgun.
Sports shotgun.
Semi-auto shotgun.
Fully automatic shotgun.

Varmint rifle, semi or bolt.
Hunting rifle, semi or bolt.
Sniper rifle, semi or bolt.
Anti-material rifle, semi or bolt.

Assault rifle.

Light machine gun.
Heavy machine gun.
Minigun.

That should cover 99% of your actual weapon category needs. Feel free to add small modifiers to any given generic weapon to make them feel different.

"Long barreled heavy revolver adds 10% to its range", "Sawn-off double barrel shotgun has 75% less range, but deals twice the damage" or stuff like that.

With guns you either go simple and generic, or full blown /k/. There is no sensible middle ground that will please everyone.

>>49044631
He's making a joke.

The throwing knives in Metro are OHK on any part of the body when facing human opponents and smaller monsters.

They're also silent. If you can get decent at aiming them they're insanely OP.

>>49049123
My .357 is grumbling in the safe, but alright.

>>49049213
lots of people aren't aware of the variances of ammunition, just leave it at that.

>>49044213
Honestly the more specific you get, the harder it is to balance it.

Just leave it at generic rifle pistol etc.

Add in AP or whatever, but don't add specific caliber.

Better yet, let's say they have 2 rifles

1 sniper rifle large caliber
1 lower caliber assault rifle

Do this:

1 sniper rifle (x)
1 assault rifle (y)

That's how many rounds he has FOR THAT RIFLE. If the gun breaks he can't add the ammo to the assault rifle, it's specifically the snipers ammo. So he needs to find another sniper rifle.

Ammo costs the exact same, just make them write how many rounds they bought, and which gun they bought ammo for.

I'd just use 1 ammo of each type, don't even specify it. Then, if you have a player who wants a /special/ gun they also have to find special ammo for their tiny advantage.

But unless the player initiates it I wouldn't even specify the guns. Just call them police pistol, ancient revolver, hunting rifle, or pump gun.

Hmm. Maybe it's just me but I don't see much difficulty in the book keeping, of using many calibers and guns, mostly because I know 90% of automatic rifles are going to use one of three calibers and a pistol is likely going to do the same.

It probably helps that I frequent /k/ and thus can automatically connect ammo to it's proper weapon.

>>49044213

One of the biggest appeals for post-apocalypse, for a lot of players, is how much of the game ISN'T made up. They get to apply their real-world knowledge of guns and vehicles and engineering, in a way that is usually discouraged in other games.

So, yes, I think your players will expect you to talk about real ammo. I don't think it's a big deal if you make a decision to abstract over that but explain your decision early. Having abstract ammo doesn't stop you from making ammo management important, players will understand that they only get to go boom so many times before they run out of boom, which is the important part.

>>49049403
yeah, but most players aren't as cross-literate in /k/nowledge so they might not make the connection...

>>49049188
Unless you hit one of the jingly metal parts on their bodies. That happened to me in one of the stealth sections when a knife of mine deflected off of a flask or something. I was surprised, pleasantly because the devs thought of that, unpleasantly because it alerted the guy I was aiming at.

>>49049520
Yeah, I can see how it can be an issue, un/k/nowledgable people wouldn't know the difference between a glock 17 and a glock 22, while someone more /k/nowledgeable like myself would hear the name of a gun and immediately think of the possible caliber options.

>>49049403
>>49049513
I think the problem is that the more realistic you get, the more information has to be set in stone.

If you have real guns, with real ammo, they need parameters that are statted out to differentiate them somehow.

Someone who isn't completely knowledgeable about guns is going to have a hard time statting up accuracy, range, and damage profiles for 5 most common revolvers, 5 most common semiauto pistols, 5 most common sport rifles, 5 most common assault rifles, along with extra things like shotguns, smgs, sniper rifles, holdout pistols, etc.

Even if you did have someone who did that, there'd probably still be someone else who would find fault in some of those numbers, which could ruin the feel of the game.

>>49049740

Well, marking the performance of individual weapons is 2 or 3 steps more fiddly than tracking ammo types. People on /k/ argue about which weapon of a given type is the best but they can all agree on which weapons fire .45 ammo.

My metric for a good post-apocalypse system is that it handles different weapons or vehicles in a way that is detailed enough to be satisfying, so that PCs discussing their resources sound like they're in a movie and not playing a game, but still abstract enough to be playable.

>>49049740
Like this >>49050309
Anon brought up, tracking every possible facet of a weapon is a much greater endeveour than just saying AK-74, SKS, AR-15,, Glock 17, Sig P226 and so on and making similar weapons have the same damage (as they reasonably would within their expected combat ranges) when you start adding in accuracy and specific damage profiles for each weapon you stop being able to abstract and might want to move towards something with far more crunch like GURPS or, if you're REALLY doubling down on the simulation Phoenix Command.

Couldn't the post-apocalypse setting be used to justify a relatively small variety of still-functioning firearms with decent supplies of ammunition? All kinds of tragedies or unforseen issues could weed out certain weapons groups or their supply of ammunition.

You could easily use that to make gun logistics a little less terrifying. Just have two or three weapons in each category (pistol, automatic rifle, shotgun, sniper), all of them use the same ammunition as others in the category, with clear hierarchy of weapon quality. Maybe each category can have a homemade/shitty version, a reasonable quality version, and one that's considered endgame-tier.

>>49051548
That's highly dependent on the apocalypse in question and the time between the big end of humanity and when the game starts. A firearm kept out of humidity and not submerged or subjected to the elements would probably last at least 50 years on it's own with no care before it begins to become unreliable, even more so if it's in a climate controlled room and preserved properly before the end. As long as you prevent the weapon from rusting it's good to go forever.

>>49051659
>That's highly dependent on the apocalypse in question and the time between the big end of humanity and when the game starts

That's more or less what I mean. The GM could tweak these details and others to achieve the desired mix of weaponry. For instance, certain weapons might have been popular near the beginning of mankind's return to the world, but by now most of their ammunition is gone. Or there were secret preserved facilities for manufacturing certain ammunition types, but some of those might have been damaged or destroyed in wars between tribes (making them less common), while others might have persevered (making them more abundant as a result). And so on and so forth.

>>49051902
Well that would only work with future or fantasy guns, as in a real world setting people with the skills would be manufacturing guns and ammo like mad and making a profit off of it.

If i remember right in fallout NV the gun runners find an old weapons factory and start churning out pre-war quality weapons and stuff using the blueprints they find. That'd be likely be happening in a realistic apocalypse setting as well, except it could easily happen out of some dude's little workshop (albeit in much smaller numbers) and people would eventually start manufacturing powder and reloading brass, making their own brass... and so on until they make their own self sufficient ammo supplies.

>>49051659
>>49051976
Assuming there is some time between the apocalypse and the game start, and guns from before exist concurrently with guns made in certain workshops. What would be the most reasonable way to distinguish them, should older guns be better?

>>49044213
well in real life, depending on where you live you could have a very simple time finding right ammo (Warpac nations for example are all gonna be slavshit so finding the right ammo would be easy as there's little variety). America on the otherhand hand would be a nightmare. There's an absolutely stupid amount of variety in types of ammo here, and only certain types work with certain guns. Single shot or revolve type weapons are more flexible, for example a single shot 22lr can shoot 22 short, 22 Magnum, etc, while something like a .357 Magnum can fire 38 special as well. A more complex weapon would be more picky. It's an interesting wrinkle that would give a player a reason to hang onto a "worse" gun because it'd be easier to feed. In addition, these simpler revolvers and rifles would hold up better over time.

I'd say keep a few common types, like 9mm, 10mm, and 45 for pistol, and just roll every time they find ammo to see what type. Maybe make it where a 1 means its something none of their weapons take, like 9x18 mak or 7.62 tokarev, to further up the tension. I probably wouldn't count every single bullet, but I'd you want to make every shot count go for it.

>>49044213
Is anyone seen any good systems that represent scarcity of ammo without having to have you tracked every shot fired each round round.

Gamma world 4e (ie based off fourth edition done doesn't dragon technically the seventh edition of the game) had an interest in system where you could either fire once in combat or multiple times and be classed as out of ammo by end of it.

Are there any games that have a similar abstract? Hopefully not *as abstract* but still get the point across

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Either you track ammo as a central theme
>I shot him with the bullet we found in that cellar last week.
or you don't mention it unless it becomes central
>You held them off all night, but dawn is still an hour off, and each of you only has 2 magazines left, including the one in the weapon right now.

Anything in between is just tedious.

>>49056848
Is tracking ammo really much more tedious than hitpoints? You can use a pair of d10s for either.

>>49054045
Quality of the the craftsmanship, most workshop guns should be a sorta quickly made single shot zipgun or pipe rifle with no rifling, then a handful of decent quality manual action weapons that may or may not have rifling and then finally at the end tier you have wasteland manufactured pre-apocalypse quality firearms that are nigh indistinguishable from the real thing.

>>49058995
So just create some low quality variants for the sake of realism and simple variety?

>>49060379
Most wasteland manufactured weapons should be low quality variants yeah, but make sure there are plenty of higher quality post-apocalypse weapons as well.

>>49046510
>Or hand out toy guns with limited ammo strips.
Brush this actually sounds like a great idea, get a bunch if capguns and let them keep track of their ammo using caps.

Though the noise and smell may get annoying

>>49060521
Yup. Only makes sense in games where there is maybe the occasional exchange of gunfire, but no cover fire battlescapes.

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>>49044213

Basically one system I've seen that was interesting was the "1 scene/1 clip" rule, where you don't count bullets in fire fights except in terms of "how many shots does this gun have before I need to take a turn to reload" (so there's basically "infinite bullets" in the scene itself, like shadowrun), but each fire fight or scene where a gun is fired uses up at least one clip from the party's supply for every gun used.

In the AFMBE campaign I used this in (zombie setup was: anyone who dies becomes a zombie regardless of a bite, unless headshotted dismembered zombie parts could sometimes continue moving around of their own accord and would still strive to kill the living - "zhands" were a recurring threat) it led to one major change in player behaviour once things got down to 8-10 clips for 4 guns:

If there wasn't a MAJOR zombie hoard or they weren't dealing with heavily armored and beligerent survivors, they would do ANYTHING rather than use their guns.

It was kinda fun GMing these people in their weird elaborate traps set up, sneaking attempts and tendency to start singing the "yub-yub" ewok song every time a trap worked as intended. Even if it was essentially being done for metagaming reasons.

>>49060687
>essentially being done for metagaming reasons.
Conserving ammunition is not a metagaming reason anon.

>>49060687
I personally don't like that sorta system. Considering it just groups up all the ammo into one weird chunk and sorta breaks the immersion of "ammo is scarce" if the players end up expending several magazines worth of ammo but only use 1 or 2 chunks from the stockpile and sems like it makes parts where the players only expend a few rounds of ammunition count against them pretty heavily. I seriously don't see how it's better than just counting each individual rounds and subtracting from the group stockpile only when people reload their magazines (IE during downtime).

>>49044615
Fuck off carlos.

>>49044213
If it's more than a hundred years into the future you should feel free to just make up whatever. It's not like anyone really uses a ton of 19th century stuff today.

>>49062443
>the moment when you realize nuclear powerplants are just fancy steam engines
>the moment when you realize the internet is a complicated telegraph network

>>49062509
>the moment you realize coal and oil are still the primary sources of energy in the world, just like they were at the end of the 19th century

>>49049165
Op here, thanks for the thorough and reasonable response, I think I'll go with this one.

It has enough variety that should fulfill the requirement of some ammo scarcity, as well as the decision of trying to keep a lower quality gun that has easier to find ammo versus a higher quality gun that has rarer ammo.

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>>49061197

It's "at least 1" clip per gun per scene - if scenes go particularly long the GM can subtract more clips, and PCs can spend clips for special shooting maneuvers.

First type of maneuver that comes to mind is "suppressing fire" - basically if you're counting individual bullets how many bullets does laying down covering fire use up? In a less specific system that's just "one clip per use of the maneuver".

Admittedly,devolves into just a repurposed "magic point" based casting system for gunplay, but that doesn't mean it's bad per se

>>49064640
Well depends on the system, some system have covering fire as a specific action that fire x amount of rounds from the magazine. To simplify covering fire and automatic fire all you have to do is set a fixed amount of shots fired by that weapon autofire being five for example and covering fire being 4 to 10 shots.

>>49064640
>16 shooter

kek

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>>49066501
It's not that far off from reality.

>>49044507
>>hyper-realistic unless done by an extremely talented GM
>>enjoyable
How would this work?

>>49067201
It'd be playing Phoenix Command with someone who knows the tables and rules like the back of his hand.

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>>49067235

What about a man with a bionic hand with all the rules and tables written on its back?

>>49064699
Honestly in a count-every-bullet set up I'd make them roll to see how many shots they fire in a full auto spray-and-pray attack, if they want to conserve ammo use fixed burst or semi-automatic, fools.

>>49067437
Then that guy would have a REALLY big hand, unless it's got some sort of mindlink LED screen that shows him the rules when he thinks of them.

And yeah, that's another way of doing suppression or automatic fire, making them roll a die to see how many rounds they expend (unless they take a talent or something to counteract it)

>>49063871
You're welcome. I've spent decades running Shadowrun, so every time we play a game that isn't so anal retentive about guns I've pulled out that system and it has worked wonders. It's simple, flexible, and minimizes bookkeeping as much as possible without trivializing resource management.

>You have a quiver of arrows
How many is that
>As much as you need until you crit fail an attack then you run out. After combat you easily find what you need to make another quiver full of arrows again.
What if I fail right after making a quiver full of arrows?
>Then your string breaks. After combat you easily repair it
What if I crit fail again right after that
>Then the dice gods hate you and your bow snaps in two. You can repair it when we go to town if it has magical properties and you can craft a simple bow with no magical properties in the mean time right after combat easily enough

>>49068182

>What about special arrows and the such
Keep track of how many of those you have given their inherent nature obviously.

>What if I silvered arrows
Treat them the same as regular arrows, but a crit fail means you will have to make some more silvered arrows as you ran out of them. You can make them by melting down a silver coin for each head, so 25 silver should do it.

>>49044213
My advice is to keep an organized pad of paper with all player names, how much ammo they have and what kind of weapon they are using. From experience players will not keep track of their own ammo. However, I kinda like being able to go "click, you're out" after they roll an attack roll.

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I think that you guys vastly overestimate how much trouble it is to track ammunition counts.

If you just use something like a bracket of tallies next to your total bullets, it's basically brainless. You just mark down tallies for each bullet you consume, then at the end of each fight you clear the tallies and reduce your ammunition number by the number of tallies you had. I have done this for just about every consumable in RPGs for years; it's quite easy and accurate.

>>49068862

Tokens is a fairly simple of way of doing this, or use pennies.

>>49068832
>I kinda like being able to go "click, you're out"

Evil, but I like it.

>>49067235
>phoenix command
>completely realistic combat game

tldr: You got shot? You're probably dead or dying. Sucks to be you.

>>49070504
Yeah that sounds about right. I don't see the problem here.

>>49070504
That sounds like the opposite of fun. I think they missed the most important part of 'game'.

Hitpoints might be a stupid system, but at least they can let you have a somewhat enjoyable combat.

>>49070819
Well, the game is more of a skirmishing system than a roleplaying system. But to give you an idea of how survivable your average grunt will be I'll look up the rules real quick...

An average grunt with some experience will have a health (ability to recover) of 10 and a will of 10 (ability to withstand fear and unconsciousness) with a Knockout Value (KV) of 20. Using the advanced damaged tables, our hapless grunt getting shot in the gut by an m16 will take 186 points of damage +10 shock, adding damage shock together gives us 196, well over three times the grunts KV so he has a 99% chance to be incapacitated.

Depending on a d10 roll he can be incapacitated from anywhere between 25 phases (about 50 seconds) to 25 minutes. To determine his Damage Total and see how likely he is to die we multiply the actual damage he took (186) by 10 then divide by health (in this case 10) leaving him at 186, since this is below 200 we use the 100 line on the table. Using the base medical rules, with no first aid he must roll in 31 hours to see if he dies, a 36 percent chance of dieing. His chances improve exponentially if he gets decent medical attention.

To contrast the same soldier getting shot in the heart takes 26,000 PD and will die in a single phase.

>>49071039
Of course, I think the system could be improved so that the KV of people is somewhere between 70 to 100 instead of 5 to 40 at best, that way the people are getting shot in the leg or chest and at least get a fighting chance to keep fighting on instead of having a 99% chance of falling over and being unable to do anything for the rest of the battle.

Considering even the most grievous wounds for the (less artery filled parts) of the legs cap out a 200 and the arms cap out at 120, although they still disable the arm preventing their use.

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>>49044213
My /k/ senses are tingling. How have none of you fuckers posted this yet?
Anyway OP, i'd say borrow a bit from the Metro series in regards to ammunition. With enough time there's bound to be a few folks in the wasteland that have learned to make bullets that can be fired without having the gun turn the wielder's hand into shrapnel and meat salsa. It's likely going to be pricy, but it beats the alternative of getting "recycled" rounds (damaged or heavily used shell casings, duds that were tinkered with to the point of instability, etc.) or trying to scrounge every little scrap of ammunition from corpses. In terms of pricing, I would imagine that generic rounds would have prices based on caliber whereas shotguns may have prices based on the load they carry. Rifles and pistols might have very little range across the board when it comes to cost, but shells might range from a cheap ass shell filled with whatever was lying around, to a dragon's breath round that could cost as much as pre-apocalyptian ammo.

Speaking of pre-apocalyptic ammunition, it should still be around, however depending on the time that this is supposed to take place it should have varying degrees of scarcity. Regular pre-waste ammo is a valuable thing to have on hand as it's likely even more reliable than the home made stuff. Military grade ammunition should be even more valuable, potentially to the point that it can be used as currency.

>>49072138
Speaking of pre-apocalypse ammo, does properly stored ammo expire in some fashion over time?

>>49044213

>How much granularity / detail should there be in specific ammo types?
shotguns, rifles, pistols at the minimum should be different, you could have generic "shotgun shells", "rifle rounds", and "handgun rounds"
and only bring up specific calibres when someone uses an uncommon rounds like the .338 lapua, used only on sniper rifles

>Should I use real world ammo types? Made up ammo? Some broad categories? Something in between?
most popular rounds are 12 gauge goes in the shotgun, 5.56/.223 in AR weapons, 7.62/.308 in hunting rifles these are your "generic" rounds

pistols have a bit more variety, the 9mm,.45ACP,.40S&W, and .38special, are the most used, so realistically there will be a real chance your bullets dont fit. you dont need specific models since if they use the same bullet, then they kill people at the same rate, but you can just have generic "9mm pistol (10-15 rounds), .45 pistol (7-10), .40 pistol (10-12), .38 revolver (5-6)". but if you want, you can assume everyone uses the 9mm


>Could use some input on the best way to implement a bit more crunch without bogging everything down

important bits: number of rounds total, number of rounds inside of the gun
important for many people:weight of bullets, calibre of rounds
important for some people: tracking spare mags
important for that guy: rounds in mags not currently in use, number of rounds not inside mags, location of rounds on your body

>>49072933
technically, yes
but if stored to the letter, it will last a while
like WW2 vintage still works

>>49072933
Yes. The biggest issue tends to be things like primer corrosion, however the rest of the round can suffer just as much if subjected to too much heat or humidity. That's why it's generally recommended that you store ammunition somewhere cool and dry.

>>49044213
My solution for this in my wild west D&D setting was to take every available weapon damage that could be dealt by firearms (2d4, 2d6, 2d8, 2d10, and 2d12) and just have each damage die be tied to a arbitrary caliber of bullet and gauge of shotgun shell, then have them totally interchangeable in complete, flagrant disregard of reality.

People already think that caliber = damage, might as well run with it.

So, for example, a pistol that deals 2d8 damage and a rifle that deals 2d8 damage use the same caliber of bullet, and all shotguns that deal 2d8 damage use the same gauge of shell.

>>49073159
they will last between a year or a week, depending on how humid it is and whether or not it gets rained on, if stored improperly

>>49044213
Ops & Tactics, dude.

It has a damage breakdown for basically any calibre you can think of. And it's free. There's even rules for guns jamming or overpenetrating, plus a decent set of feats and weapon proficiencies.

That said it isn't post-apoc, and I haven't played a game using it.

>>49073364
Ops and Tactics, not having any fluff, could easily be run for any type of game. The three most obvious ones being contemporary operating, contemporary fantasy operating and sci-fi operating (with optional magic).

>>49068862
For immersion, handing out brass to each player would be kinda cool.

If your PCs are able to resupply their gear immediately after the fight then you don't even need to bother. Just assume they restock after.

>>49073412
It's also got three levels of complexity.

1. Generic and easy.
2. Common and fiction-famous guns.
3. /k/ taken flesh

>>49073458
Well to be fair the rules aren't super indepth and even though there's over 1000 guns not all of them are completely unique.

>>49073470
oh another thing I just realized, is the game probably isn't best for a long running gritty game. If the players get high in level getting shot rapidly becomes trivial to them, especially if one of the players chose the tanky "Tough" archetype.

By level 5 the smart dude will have 21 extended HP (hits that didn't count) and 12 core HP (meat points) assuming a CON of 10. The tough dude will be even worse assuming a CON of at least 14 with 47 extended HP and 19 core HP.

For scale 9mm and .40 do 12 damage maximum, .45 does a max of 14, .223 a max of 20, .308 and 12 gauge a max of 30 and .50 BMG is a max of 80.

>>49044455
Do not be afraid my child, a fabled /k a/tg uy is here.

And yeah seriously make ammo general between certain weapons. Don't go 9mm, 9x19, 9x18 and all that retardation. Do, like, 3 pistol calibers, 4 rifle calibers, and 2 shotgun gauges. Thats it. More is confusing. Less would make ammo too easy maybe. Fine tune the number of calibers for each type, but I'd use
9mm, .45, and .38 for your pistol calibers
.223, 7.62x39, .308, 30-06, and .45-70 gov.
If I have to say 12 and 20 gauge are best for generic shotgun, I'm a little sad but that's ok. But thats it. If you need to know the comparable rarity of rounds in your universe, look up modern ammo costs. Most people try to buy guns they can shoot a lot for cheaper, so more guns and ammo will be available for cheaper rounds.

>>49044743
You'd be surprised. Slings are an ancient weapon my friend. They can absolutely destroy a zombie brain. And only rocks are needed. Now they're slower and Less accurate by far outside of maybe 30 yards, but that's not a bad option for the party.

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>>49074057

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I'm gay so I just use 4 types- SMG bullets, Shotgun shells, pistol rounds, and rifle rounds.

However 'special' types are rare in my game world and are treated somewhat like magic items/rare and valuable consumables. 'Heavies' are a regular bullet type but pack more punch. 'Greasers' don't jam up your guns. 'Firebugs' are incendiary. 'Banshees' scream and scare people, where as 'Hushers' are silent.

And yes those are all those official names. But that's ok because all the guns and bullets are made out of scrap metal and garbage.

>>49075690
SMGs are pistol cartridge weapons; that scrap Thompson is chambered in .45acp, same as a 1911.

>>49075738
Fucking this, I hate when games make "pistol" and "SMG" ammunition two separate categories.

>>49075754

While it was my idea at first to make them the same ammo type, I kind of wanted ammo to be scarce and specific. And since most players would be starting with either at least a pistol or a pistol + a better gun I didn't want them to have to think they are wasting their precious pistol ammo on an actual SMG.

Actually I'm just going to add in some shit one handed shotgun or something and make them the same ammo type. That way its easier to choose.

>>49075888
Just make them the same ammo type, a pistol's inherent usefulness comes from how small it is and how it's easy to carry and conceal. an SMG on the other hand should be better for fighting overall and be a main go to weapon, until they run out of ammo then they need to fall back to their handgun.

>>49075916
>SMG on the other hand should be better for fighting overall and be a main go to weapon, until they run out of ammo then they need to fall back to their handgun.
>run out of ammo and fall back to their handgun
>When the SMG and handgun use the same ammo

m8

>>49076068
>what are magazines
What are you simplifying the system so much that each gun just shares a pool of bullets and if the pool empties the other one is magically empty?

>>49076086

>Simplifying the system so much that all SMGs and pistols can use the same ammo interchangeable
>But autistically keeping track of mags is good

Alright. I'll meet you half way though, since I like the idea of combat reloads being tough or really dangerous, people switching to their pistols will be how to deal with that.

>>49076139
>tracking magazines is autistic
When will this meme die. It's not that hard, just have the players write down how many magazines they have on their person, how much ammo is left in the gun and when they swap out reduce one magazine from the pool and add one empty one (or partially filled one) to their inventory.

I'm not saying "Make 17 different magazines unique to each particular gun" just make a generic "Pistol/SMG/Rifle/Shotgun" magazine they can find on corpses or laying around.

>>49076176

But not every gun uses the same type of magazine, nor does all guns use magazine.

Like I said, some guns in this setting use revolver chambers, literal bullet clips, drum magazines, stick magazines, literally a funnel box with a hole in the bottom for big ass machine guns, etc.

>>49076295
Well naturally, but you're the GM you can arbitrate what fits what, if you don't have like 100+ guns then it shouldn't be hard to ad in magazines.

>>49075738
>>49075754

Yeah SMGs generally run from 9mm to .45, nothing heavier - in theory you could have a world where pistols and auto pistols use such light ammo, SMGs use 5.72 nato intermediates and assault rifles using .303 or .5 full rounds.

>>49077037
>SMGs using intermediate rifle cartridges
>Assault Rifles using full size rifle cartridges
>this triggers the /k/ommando

>>49071039
>>49071245
Sounds interesting, is there a link to this?

>>49078322
Here's a link to a Phoenix Command mega anon
https://mega.co.nz/#F!b5tgXRwa!mzelRNrKPjiT8gP7VrS-Jw

>>49078386
keep in mind >>49078322 this includes the majority of the supplements and some unnofficial things as well.

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>>49077037
>assault rifles using .5 full rounds.

Are your PCs wearing power armor?

>>49076068
>>49075916

The problem you two are having is in game balance terms, an SMG is often a "light" machine so if there's a character who isn't specc'd out to hand "heavy" guns they can act as fire support for pistol weilding character - however to fit this niche, what then happens is that SMGs have to do less damage so that pistols are the "slow firing, high damage per shot" alternative (like how shotguns/sniper rifles are the spike damage dealers for heavy gun users), which in turn neccesitates a different calibre, like all all SMGs are running fletchettes or .22 while all guns are DIRTY HARRY cannons.

>>49080377
Why should pistols be as good as SMGs in the first place?

>>49080564
In OP's postapocalyptic setting where ammo can be limited or expensive, firing big bursts with SMG's is pretty wasteful by definition.

>>49081053
>firing big bursts with SMG's is pretty wasteful by definition

That sounds like a mitigating factor.

You could have SMGs be simply better than pistols for most purposes (that is, they can inflict several times as much damage when multiple shots connect, and despite lower hit chance for individual shots, their overall hit chance is higher when they put more bullets in the air), but have that counterbalanced by their automatic fire settings being expensive in terms of bullets consumed.

ARs could similarly be even more damaging and have better range, but their use requires both hands (can't use one while hanging off the side of a wasteland vehicle, for example), the bullets they use would be less common, and as such might cost the players more than pistol ammo if they tried to buy them from a trader.

>>49044507
you should have left your exception out of the green text. it's kinda confusingly worded as is.

>>49046510
that is all amazingly immersive and If I had a dedicated space that i owned or could rent I'd be all over that.

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>>49080203
No.

>>49081053
>where ammo can be limited or expensive
I'm a big fan of player's having to decide whether it's worth using ammunition or whether they should conserve it in some way and either avoid an encounter or figure out some alternative means to dispose of enemies.

>>49082196
>Effective firing range: 100 metres (330 ft)

Let's take all the advantages of a .50 caliber bullet and just completely fuck it up.

>Russia

>>49085113
>Caliber of the ASh-12: 12.7x55
>Caliber of the M2 Browning and Barrett M82: 12.7x99mm

It's a subsonic round designed for used in suppressed weapons, for spec ops n shit. Originally designed for use with the VKS sniper rifle. The idea is to overcome the subsonic speeds by increasing the mass, increasing the amount of energy the projectile carries.

>>49085253
Trying to suppress assault rifles is silly. Doing that for a weapon that's used by the FSB in anti-terror operations is even sillier.

>>49085369
>Trying to suppress assault rifles is silly
M8 u best b jestin'

We've built many weapons and cartridges from the ground up for the sole purpose of being suppressed, and many of them are whisper quiet, it certainly makes a huge difference.

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>>49051548
Pretty much this, add in some exotic calibers though.

For example, hunting rifles can use some pretty exotic caliber you wouldn't know about otherwise, then there's all the custom shotgun rounds which you can create.

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>>49085369

Basically to understand what that's about you have to understand a key element of soviet era departmental nonsense, to wit:

>Traffic Police were subdepartment of KGB

so one thing this means is that modern russian traffic police get the same equipment as the FSB, which includes state of the art bullpup assault rifles from AK, and russia put a lot of r&d into subsonic munitions in the 80s for those state of teh art wetwork guns so now traffic cops in russia use special subsonic munitions designed for KGB wetwork too.

Note thirdly that because the munitions are subsonic already, "suppressors" only have to have expansion chambers for the escaping gases

>>49086717
>now traffic cops in russia use special subsonic munitions designed for KGB wetwork

Russia is a scary place

>>49044213
>detail

I use simplified RL calibers and actual costs in USD for reference.
A post-apocalypse menu for a techno-bedouin leadmonger:

22LR 130/1000 RIM
9x19 220/1000 FMJ
7x39 240/1000 FMJ
12ga 250/1000 SHT
5x45 400/1000 FMJ
7x51 500/1000 FMJ
12ga 750/1000 SLG
~
>>!!!ULTRA-RARE!!!<<
HPs Now Available!
Ask About Our
MATCH GRADE SPECIALS!

Note that I listed only the calibers common enough to be universally
valuable due to demand. If a PC somehow manages to get a 50BMG they
found (frozen in carbonite or something) operational, off-menu ammo
should only exist at all at GM discretion and be painfully expensive
- short of a 5-finger discount - and in VERY small lots. ALso, buying quantities smaller than 1000rds causes Achmed's prices to go WAY up.

HTH

>>49044213
>post apocalyptic
>ammo management
what about food? I mean you can live without ammo right?

>>49088592
One can assume that he was able to wrap his head around food management.

But perhaps you have some sort of insight you want to share about doing food management in some interesting way.

>>49060687
You're supposed to track ammo in shadowrun. That's why each ammo type tells you if it is a magazine, a clip, a cylinder, loose and whatever.

>>49072933
Ammo is relatively simple except for modern powders and primers.

Modern day powder, from WW2 and newer, is truly a miracle of modern science. There are chemicals that preserve the propellant, neutralize chemicals that occur from dissolution, burn rate control elements.....

The big thing is that gun powder and black powder are made into uniform flakes that are 'big' relative to other grades and there for burn slowly, but those big flakes often shatter from being handled and turn into 'smaller', fast burning powder. The energy that would have burned throughout a long rifle barrel now burns in a pistol length volume. This has led to many fine guns becoming bombs.

So even perfectly preserved ammo may have powder that is too fast burning and will have to be disassembled and thoroughly inspected. It would take a sophisticate organic chemistry lab to replicate modern nitro-gun cotton powders.

Primers are likewise sophisticated, the old mercury primers having been replaced by a lead based primer. Replication would require a similar sophisticated lab set up.

Going back a generation, black powder and mercury primers is something a regular knowledgeable person might be able to make.

Post apocalypse may mean a technological regression to easier manufacture and lower knowledge base.

>>49074039
American Caliber numbers give me aids.

>>49091179
well, other than the .45,.38, and .40SW, and .22LR, there arent that many calibre that would really matter unless you were a collector or hunter

What my group did was kinda simple but kinda not.
>mags are divided into numbers used on a single die. 30 round mags are 10 groups of 3. 32 round mags are 8 groups of 4 and you get the idea.
>obviously weapons with small magazines get the right size since they are easily recorded. 20 rounds is 20. 7 rounds is 7 and so on.
>weapons that use clips use clips as magazines that can only be inserted into a gun. If you have a few rounds left, reloading a clip will make you lose those rounds in the gun. (You keep the empty strips though)
>magazines/clips can be refilled by boxes. Magazines are classed in size so small magazines can be refilled 10 times, medium, 5 times, large, 2 times and huge like an m249 nutsack takes a whole box.
>Obviously shotguns are an exception. Shotgun shells are individual shells which can be loaded into the gun. A shotgun box will contain X rounds depending on size. Shotguns with magazines use normal rules used by other weapons.
Holy jesus that is quite a read...

>>49088917
Maybe he means the vidya.

>>49089618
>made into uniform flakes that are 'big' relative to other grades

What does that mean exactly?

>So even perfectly preserved ammo may have powder that is too fast burning

Over what sort of time period are we talking about that happening, and what sort of mechanical effect should represent it in game?

>Post apocalypse may mean a technological regression to easier manufacture and lower knowledge base.
What sort of functional difference would there be in that easier to produce powder and primer? After all, it's not like ww2 era guns couldn't accurately kill people.

>>49088528
>buying quantities smaller than 1000rds

Once you get into thousands of rounds you're really missing the point of post-apocalyptic survival in ruins and wastes or the need for ammo management.

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>>49093456

Didn't early gunpowder mostly use shit and piss based nitrates? That seems a good tech level for a post-apochalyptic gun setting, hydrolic empires of shite fighting over heavily armed and slave powered fertiliser and waste reclamation sites that keep the wastelands armed and loaded in these, our danger days.

>>49094514

Yeah but outside of the vast vaults filled with diamonds and .22lr owned by the De Beers cartel, you're unlikely to have more than 1000 rounds on you at any one time.

>>49048899
>go to a local shooting range.
>ask them if you can have spent brass and cartridges.

Hah, just saw this thread over on /k/ >>>/k/31167680

>>49044511
Well, now i know what kind of locals i want in my new planet

If they use 'ammo' they get a onus to accuracy and dmage.

If they don't they are using flashlights. (Quake II basic weapon perhaps.) Less damage and accuracy. Also max is medium range.

>>49044511
This crop is stage 4 prostate cancer

>>49100208
>If they use 'ammo'

How would they not use ammo? Either ammo exists, or you're in some sort of action movie where the heroes never have to reload or run out of bullets.

>>49103069
>or you're in some sort of action movie where the heroes never have to reload or run out of bullets

I think this is one of the things people mean when they use "cinematic" as a positive quality in games.

>>49103069

wand recharging wouldn't be "ammo", mass effect style "heat cool downs" don't have ammo (SHUT UP mass effect 2/3!)

>>49103287
>ME heatsink firearms to avoid tracking ammo
I'd use it in a scifi RPG

>>49095251
>hydrolic empires of shite fighting over heavily armed and slave powered fertiliser and waste reclamation sites that keep the wastelands armed and loaded

I'd play in that campaign.