MTG Legacy General

>>48893506
>>48893534


By fun I mean crushing people with Standard's Greatest Hits™

>>48893712

Muh nigga

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>>48894366
Veteran Explorer is my favourite standard powerhouse.

Jund needs over drive cards. I don't know what but it needs to be something good. Let jund reclaim it's throne!

>>48894196
>What reprints are you hoping for in Conspiracy 2?
Engineered Plage.
Careful Study
Cephalid Colisseum
Spore Frog
Mind Twist
Diabolic Edict
Just some stuff that has never been printed non-foil in post-8th borders.

>>48895161
>it's
>it is

>>48895181
You know what I meant, cuck bucket!

>>48895194
>cuck bucket
>exclamation point
hmmm

>>48895161
Like jund needs any more cards. You have deathrite shaman, bloodbraid elf, and the punishing Grove combo. Learn to play jund.

>>48894196
Grindstone! Imperial recruiter (I can dream right) make painter great again!

Dicks Out for Kird Ape

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Rate my goblin deck?
CREATURES
>4x bloodmark mentor
>4x chancellor of the forge
>4x goblin arsonist
>4x goblin bushwhacker
>4x goblin chieftain
>4x goblin king
>4x goblin wardriver
>4x raging goblin


>4x brightstone ritual
>4x Dragon fodder
>4x krenkos command
>4x quest for the goblin lord
>12x mountains

>>48895396
Props for Bowied

>>48895449
Wat?

>>48895469
>Goblin King

So /tg/ do I foil out my Esper miracles or do I get DnT deck?

>>48895629
Save some cash and get a foiled out version of this guy's goblin deck >>48895396

>>48895811
...maybe

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Well boys it's...it's beautiful. I absolutely fucking hate this card but, I'm so glad wizards are reprinting it

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>>48895396
>12 land
>raging fucking goblin
>brightstone ritual

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unban recruiter

>>48897220
Yeah, naw

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>>48894196
I'm just hoping for something like dig through time

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>>48897852
>alters

>>48898209
Those aren't alters, they're KMC Character Guard triple sleeves.

>>48897578
Recruiter is not a broken card and would create a new tier 2 deck.

>>48898209
>>48898827
one of the forces is altered, but I purchased it that way because it was cheaper for being "damaged." they're triple sleeved to make sure judges approve that alter for use.

>>48896552

Wait, are they giving Show and Tells away at pre-release events?

>>48898827
>new tier 2 deck
Teir 1, the card is good enough so goblins auto wins any non-combo matchup. I've tested with it before, and think it is a significantly riskier unban than earthcraft or mind's desire which I've also tested, and I'd be surprised if it wasn't more powerful than memory jar and mind twist.
It might be able to come off, but there are more deserving unbans than it by far.

How viable is reanimator with shocks instead of duals?

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>>48899910
You might try darkslick shores if you need a cheap option. You don't need much more than two lands at one time. Including a shock to have something to fetch is alright but will mean slimmer margins when activating G-money.

>>48896552
>50usd card
>Deck defining card
>Hand them out as promos to everyone who shows up

The price is gonna tank so fucking hard.

>>48900141
Fuck sneak and show players

>>48900185
This desu senpai

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>>48894196
>Playing the máster race deck
>Paired against storm
>Won game 1, i lose g2
>On g3 i have 18 cards on grave for T1.
>T2 i have him at 11 life
>He kills himself with ad nauseum
MFW

>>48901589
This is why I don't play ANT.

>>48901760
Isn't it cool to just run Dark Petition and Past in Flames instead of AN nowadays?
You have me torn between building DDFT and ANT.

>>48901589
>>48901760
He obviously took a risk when he shouldn't of

>>48901982
How the fuck would you know that? It sounded like he'd likely be dead in a turn, not to mention the interactive pressure if dredge mills a therapy.

>>48901982
it's hard to know without seeing the whole board, but it sounds to me like casting AN was actually the right play. At 11 life on turn 2, 1 more turn and you're either dead or far too low to Ad Naus. I'm assuming the Ad Naus player took a calculated risk, assuming chances were better with an Ad naus from 11 life than hoping to topdeck whatever piece was missing to just chain tutors. From 11 life you'll draw ~7 cards, maybe more. I think the chances are good, especially if you have mana floating.

>>48902079
>>48902149
Jesus what's with the hostility guy. I'm just saying that becuase I've only ever killed my self with Ad nauseum is when I'm in a hard place and I make a bad decision or get greedy with Ad nauseum

>>48902250
>Hostility
Giving a sane opinion is hostility now?

>>48900141

Good, this is should discourage investing in MTG.

>>48902295
You were very rude about it

>>48902149
>>48902079
He was pretty dead if he didn't stormed right there. i had 6 zombies in play, and 3 ichorid in graveyard. he did what he needed, but anyways failed. i was in fact fearful that he had in hand an echoing truth.

>>48902250
>>48902149
I wasn't trying to be hostile. It's hard to know anything without knowing the whole gamestate. But Ad Naus from 11 life is much better than Ad Naus from 2.

>>48901971
I think the best course of action is to start with ANT. Doomsday is fun once you learn to not kill yourself, but it has a steeply logarithmic learning curve. ANT has a more linear learning curve. No to mention the decks share like 80% of their cards, so if you own ANT, you're like $50 away from owning doomsday as well. I don't want to discourage you from starting with DDFT if you think you'll really love it and are willing to put the time in to tame the beast. That's what I did.

>>48902498
Oh sorry DDFT guy, I forgot to clarify but you weren't the hostile one

>>48900141
Good, the prices of most legacy cards are just silly.
>>48896552
If this is the promo I might pay for some friends to join me

>>48902516
>>48902250
You were being mean to the AN player (your post basically said 'obviously he was stupid'), so I felt the desire to reprimand you.
I don't like it when people hear about someone they don't know doing something they don't know about and their first response is to assume that they didn't have a good reason for doing what they did.
It's like, the assumption that people are stupid leads you to assume they don't have a reason for what they're doing which then confirms your assumption that they're stupid; I see that kind of thing happen everywhere it annoys me every time.

>>48900185
B-but why?

>>48901971
>Isn't it cool to just run Dark Petition and Past in Flames instead of AN nowadays?
AN is needed for speed. Usually the choice is between AN and Empty.

I'm gonna repost this in the new thread because no one got it. Hope my spamming of random DDFT puzzle isn't annoying.

Puzzle featuring scary new card Sanctum Prelate:

it's main phase in your 4th turn vs DnT of the future. They played Sanctum Prelate on their previous turn and choose 2 like an asshole.

Your hand: Dark Ritual, Doomsday, Brainstorm, Probe, Underground Sea, Abrupt Decay
Your field: Bayou, Island, Island.
Can you kill them right now?

how is anyone who didnt grow up with a trust fund supposed to be able to play this format

>>48903102
You save money.

blazing wish guy here reporting on my duel for the dual tournament. 14 people so 5 rounds cut to top 4. beat slivers, painter, and manaless dredge, lost to eldrazi stompy and sneak and show. made 6th place, which felt a little bad, but mostly I was happy to get to play paper legacy. I got 4 packs of bfz, didn't open anything of value. manaless dredge guy to me I was his only g1 loss all day.

>have all of RB reanimator built besides reanimate and entomb
>no one in my area has them
>no one on pucatrade wants to send them

This is some bullshit. Is there any other way I'm missing out on that isn't just straight up buying them?

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>>48903199
RB
Nout superior UB

>>48902999
Usea Dark Rit Doomsday for:

LotusPetal Probe Probe Probe MadLad

although that Doomsdaying for a bunch of Gitaxian Probes and LadMan seems really lazy, what's the optimal way?

>>48902771
Oh I see, we just had a misinterpretation of words. I was just trying to point out that in my experience he made a mistake, like everyone else does.

>>48903199
I think you'll just have to buy them. If you have cards you were going to trade for them, trade them in for store credit somewhere and you'll save some cash on the purchase.

>>48903199
Pucatrade is incredibly shitty when it comes to getting legacy staples. You're better off selling/buying through Ebay.

>>48902852
It's the single most braindead deck in the format

>>48903102
Get a job that pays above minimum. Save your beer money. Don't eat out for a couple weeks. A million ways really

>>48901982
*have

>>48903102
https://youtu.be/SvseDNbzPtM

>>48903472
Paying 8 life after doomsday may not even be possible much of the time. I'm also not sure your pile even works without passing another turn and using your draw step to win. But you've just paid 8 life so at best you'd be at 2 and dead on board.

Here's my solution: play the underground sea (I realize I wasn't totally clear that you hand't played a land yet). Tap the bayou for ritual, doomsday.
Pile: Brainstorm, LED, Maniac, Brainstorm irrelevant.
Now you have 3 blue mana sources left. Tap one to cast brainstorm, and put back Abrupt Decay, then Maniac. Now your hand is Probe, BS, LED. Play LED. Then pay life for probe, hold priority, cast brainstorm, keep holding priority, and crack LED for UUU. Brainstorm resolves, and you draw Maniac, BS, Decay. Put back decay and then maniac. Probe resolves and you draw maniac. Cast maniac off the UUU, and you have one blue source left to brainstorm with only 2 cards left in the deck.

>>48901971
ANT is more competitive, DDFT is flashier. AN lets you essentially roll the dice and try to find a win when you otherwise would not. Empty is a reasonable substitute, but AN from 15+ life with 1 mana available is usually a . value AN is also a reasonable play in certain matchups

>>48894196
>pay to win general

>>48904169
I think you meant to say, "ANT is more widely played, but DDFT is inarguably cooler"

>>48904169
I have played against ANT and TES, i know how to disrupted them. I have never played against DDFT so the surprise factor would hit me, but if i thoughtseize and see a Doomsday i think i would discard it

>>48904216
This is almost always correct. I always chuckle a bit when people don't do this. DDFT has a hard time winning without resolving Doomsday.

>>48904284
Can DDFT realistically win without Doomsday?

>>48903102
Proxy a deck before you drop any amount of cash on the pieces no matter how cheap. Make sure you like the deck you are building. Put a little bit of money aside each paycheck and eventually you'll be able to afford some duals or fetches or whatever it is you need. Cut back on other formats, or try to find budget alternatives to use in the short term. Lots of ways really. You just need to be patient and saavy. Don't even feel bad proxying a deck for a while as you begin to assemble it, I and most other legacy players don't mind if it's printed paper proxy because we appreciate having to someone to play the format with. Plus 9 out of 10 legacy players will understand the struggle/time involved in saving up.

How can Monarch mechanic change Legacy? Any Monarch card that can be slotted in a established deck already?

I think it can be a source of card advantage to decks that doesn't have any, but who knows. The drawback of being hit can be bad.

>>48904316
Only through a line where they can cast a burning wish for tendrils. Double top triple LED 2x dark rit wish or something

>>48904209
ANT is more widely played because its more competitive. As for which is cooler, I prefer the deck that can pull off more t1-2 kills and has a couple different paths to victory

>>48904527
I could see it being playable as an anti-miracles/lands tactic. If there was a 3 drop that with 2 or less power in white that made you the monarch it might actually be good in painter. I wouldn't rule it out at least, but I haven't critically analyzed any cards

>>48904527
>Any Monarch card that can be slotted in a established deck already?
D&T is almost certainly playing Palace Jailer, I can't believe D&T got 3 different extremely powerful cards in a single set, I can't imagine it not being tier 1 once it is released.
Nothing else so far looks playable.

>>48904636
4 mana is a lot, but it actually does seem like it could be good enough. I'll try it at the very least

>>48904613
>>48904636
Yes, i'm looking into the Number Crunch right now and only Palace Jailer seems playable at the moment. He turns you at the monarch and have an immediate impact. If you play it on your turn, it draws you a card already. Or, if for some random reason you Vial up to 4, you could flash it as a trick.

>>48904674
>4 mana is a lot, but it actually does seem like it could be good enough. I'll try it at the very least
Palace jailer is a 3 for 1 to start with and only gets better from there, just through maintaining the monarch or flickering it. All of the lists I've seen that try to incorporate recruiter were already playing banishing priest maindeck I can't imagine Jailer not replacing it.
A lot of people on the source were discussing playing some amount of chrome moxes because
The curve of the deck is significantly increasing otherwise (recruiter is effectively a 6 drop, split over 2 turns).
and
The cards that D&T have gotten practically make it unbeatable in midrange battles
I don't know if maindeck chrome moxes are going to be a thing (although I'd guess they will be) but because of prelate and recruiter I think chrome moxes are actually more important than ethersworn cannonist against storm (I say this having tested for a decent bit) and other fast combo.
At this point I think the only big deck that D&T is going to not be able to at least metagame itself against effectively is elves.

>>48904577
It's fine if you think that. My experience with DDFT has shown it to be plenty competitive. The main reason it's not widely played is because ANT has an easier learning curve, and the pros of DDFT weighed against the cons plus the extra effort required to become competent is not worth it to most people. It was for me. It's not for you.

>>48904814
My feeling on chrome moxen is that they're bad cards that the deck doesn't need, and balancing the curve seems more important. As much as I love the source, some truly terrible ideas get latched onto. I think if the deck wants to go for this turbo midrange strategy, it should add 1 dustbowl, and just lose to Delver, Elves and Infect all day.

That said, I do think that the deck will change a lot. I don't think cutting all your early game cards and trying to make up by running bad acceleration is the solution.

>>48904846
I take umbradge with the notion that Ddft is a deck that's impossibly difficult to learn and held back by the world not being ready for it. Optimally playing ANT is harder than DDFT. Memorizing piles is flashy, but ultimately easier than knowing how and when to play the odds.

If you want to talk pros and cons, ANT has a lot of upside that DDFT doesn't.

>>48904893
>and just lose to Delver, Elves and Infect all day.
I don't see how you're going to become a teir 1 deck by losing to half of the meta. The chrome moxes might be sideboard, but I can't see them not being in the deck.
>My feeling on chrome moxen is that they're bad cards that the deck doesn't need, and balancing the curve seems more important
This is something that sounds nice, but doesn't actually make any sense. You are going to want to play 3 or 4 recruiters because of how good they are, it is effectively a 6 mana investment card most of the time. Stoneforge mystic is either a 6 mana investment or a 4 mana investment, prelate is good enough to be a 2 of almost definitely, and then you have several 3 mana spells beyond that along with rishadan port and wasteland. It is a very mana intensive deck that is only getting more mana intensive. It also has a huge amount of card advantage (and has just gained even more) and can afford to lose some.
I also think that chrome mox is slightly underrated even in grindy matchups, because of the inability for people to accept that it is not a spell, but a land. The amount of times I have heard some variation of 'it is terrible late game' when in the situation that they described a land would be just as terrible leads me to believe that they don't understand its role as a card.
>it should add 1 dustbowl
I think horizon canopies are more realistic than dustbowl, I've played dustbowl quite a lot and I think it far too slow to be useful in any situation for D&T.
>cutting all your early game cards
People are only considering cutting revokers, there was some discussion on cutting mom, but consensus was that it didn't make sense. The other cuts tend to be serra avenger, flickerwisp and the other 3 drops.

>>48905170
>The amount of times I have heard some variation of 'it is terrible late game' when in the situation that they described a land would be just as terrible leads me to believe that they don't understand its role as a card.
It's technically worse than a land, because if you want to use it you have to dump another card. If you don't need more mana, though, then it will just sit in your hand just like a topdecked plains.

>>48905151
I'm not all that interested in arguing, actually, so i'll drop it after this. But you've misrepresented or misinterpreted what I was saying. I've repeatedly said in previous threads that DDFT is not actually that hard to play. It does have a steeper learning curve than ANT. That's not the same thing as saying it's harder overall. DDFT sees tournament success in proportion to the number of people who play it. Compare it to TES, which is played far less than ANT, but sees success in the hands of people who are dedicated players. DDFT has advantages and disadvantages relative to ANT. I don't think it's better or worse than ANT. I think it's different, and I have more fun playing it.

And for the record, there is very little pile memorization involved in learning to play DDFT.

It seems like a good time to sleeves up dredge. Everybody will be sideboarding for DnT or playing DnT.

>>48906283
Time to dust off my copies of Teferi's Response from Masques/Invasion standard. Fuck Rishada Port.

>>48905170
Cutting Avenger and Revoker is what makes Delver and Elves bad.

As for cutting flickerwisp, I don't see why we want to cut our best card. That's a different discussion that happens with time.

On Chrome Mox, i agree with you that being a bad topdeck isn't a great reason not to run it. The reasons I don't see it being good are these:

1. The deck does not have an increased need to make 2 drops on turn 1. Unless the speed of the format increases, I do not see the point.

2. With 21 lands and 2 moxen, you will still draw a lot of hands with 2 mana sources. Mox + Land puts you up 1 mana total in a 2 mana source draw. There will be hands where you open 2 lands, then the mox being your 3rd land is bad.

3. Other cards can interact with it that are already good against you. Null Rod is great against you. Making it potentially stone rain you is terrible. Abrupt Decay etc. you when stuck on mana will suck. Flickerwisp on a mox is a beating.

>>48906489
>1. The deck does not have an increased need to make 2 drops on turn 1. Unless the speed of the format increases, I do not see the point.

But not getting your relevant hate online on T1 IS one of the big weak spots of D&T.

T1 Thalia, Ethersworn Canonist or RiP can make the difference, especially on the draw.

The card disadvantage and dead top decks are the main problems of Chrome Mox. Being able to be faster would actually be a good thing.

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>>48906402
>Teferi's Response
That is some sick technology, I've never seen that card before.

>>48906489
>I don't see why we want to cut our best card
Flickerwisp is a great card (and I meant cutting copies, there are still 2-3 in each list I've seen, revokers cut to 1-2) but thalia is the best card in the deck. The reason is, it is slow, and you'll have access to it when you really need it.
>Cutting Avenger and Revoker is what makes Delver and Elves bad.
I don't think that avenger is all that good for the delver matchup, better than the average card, but it usually just trades for a delver. Cutting revoker makes elves worse, but I'm not sure if it is possible for elves to be good for a mono white build without comically tailoring the deck against elves. Elves is the one matchup where I think it is wise to just completely give up.
>2. With 21 lands and 2 moxen, you will still draw a lot of hands with 2 mana sources. Mox + Land puts you up 1 mana total in a 2 mana source draw.
This is a good point, however, in that situation the acceleration can still be potent, spirit guide isn't terrible if it is in your opening (I know this sounds like it contradicts what I was saying earlier about it being a land, but the fact that it does curtail sooner than a land is a valid point)
>There will be hands where you open 2 lands, then the mox being your 3rd land is bad.
Agreed, from that perspective the way that chrome mox would add value over previous versions is if it increased its total mana source count, if it dealt with the card disadvantage better or if it could use its acceleration better than it previously could.
I think it is clear it will deal with the card disadvantage better.
I think that increasing the total land count is certainly possible (horizon canopy also compliments mox), thought likely not a huge deal.
I also think that due to the presence of prelate the acceleration is more significant than before.
Mostly though, I think it is the best card against storm and other fast decks which is why I think it would at least be good in the side.

>>48906682
I disagree. I'd love to have t1 hate against combo. Out of the sideboard, I would rather have a couple of lotus petals. Being down cards is a legitimate cost, even against combo. I don't think prelate is going to lead me to trim on other hate.

>>48907740
Thalia is certainly the best card against cantrip decks, but Flickerwisp does a lot of really powerful things in a ton of matchups. Being able to tutor it is nice, but unless you have 2 vials on 3 that's not going to cut it.

Avenger does often just trade for a delver. With 6 total removal spells, that's all you need sometimes. Maybe it's no longer necessary, but I do think that the newer lists look really soft to delver. Elves sucks, but I don't think we should just give up.

Try the moxen out, but I think they'll be significantly more potent if you run them in addition to, rather than instead of, lands

Yo steppechild/beezy, if you want to play again just post in thread.

>>48895396

>raging goblin

Is this nigga forreal? I wouldn't run that shit in Modern Gobboz.

>>48907476
I like this card's design. It does one very very niche thing, but does it VERY well.

Not Legacy but damn, this is why I always look forward to LSV cube draft videos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_1109283&feature=iv&src_vid=HGXN9rnfDQU&v=jS6e2Gu8bXg

What made everyone here pick their legacy deck? For me it was a combination of wanting to play a control deck and watching BBD and Philip schnoegger (sorry it'll that's wrong) slay with miracles. But I refuse to not play my favourite color combination in my favourite format so I opted to play Esper miracles.

So what's your guys small/big stories?

>>48904007
What is Eldrazi and Burn.

>>48911555
>(sorry it'll that's wrong)
Sorry if that's wrong*

>>48904577
>he thinks people pick up the more competitive storm deck instead of the one everyone else is playing and that has a lower learning curve

>>48911567
Ehhh at least with burn you have some AMAZING mind games with ANT. I'd put sneak and show up there as well as far as brain dead decks go.

Did we ever figure out if Show and Tell is the promo for conspiracy? Because I'm gonna have to buy into that like a mother fucker if so

>>48911555
they banned Dig Through Time, so I sold Grixis Pyromancer and bought a sick mountain bike and Death & Taxes.

>>48905454
While you don't literally memorize piles, you do quickly learn that your piles all follow pretty simple heuristics.

>>48911587
ANT is likely the hardest of the storm decks to optimally play. TES and DDFT are played by a devoted but smaller playerbase. They're both decent decks, have pros and cons, but aren't as well positioned as ANT.

That doesn't mean the decks are bad and shouldn't be played, people play their pet decks to good finishes all the time, see Legends miracles.

If we want to play our pet deck because we enjoy it more, that's all well and good. Let's just not resort to assuming that everyone else is dumb. There's a reason why ANT sees the most play, and it's not because the deck is easier to play.

>>48911555
I picked up Parfait because
>I though the concept behind the deck was neat
>It was inexpensive for an interactive deck
>It seemed to have a high skill curve so I wouldn't get bored playing it all the time
>The Enlightened Tutor toolbox allows you to have fairly even matchups against the field - the deck doesn't have any huge weaknesses or unbeatable matchups

>>48895396
what in the hell

>>48911927
I know I said I would drop it, but I'm actually curious and I want to bump the thread. So, what is it about ANT that makes it harder to play optimally? I'm not able to play ANT optimally (not DDFT either, frankly, but closer to optimal than ANT), so I don't feel qualified to judge.

Again, I'm not trying to claim DDFT is harder. I literally don't know. My original claim was that it has a steeper learning curve, i.e. It takes more effort to stop killing yourself and start winning games with DDFT, but then the improvement rate declines after you pass that hurdle.. ANT has a learning curve closer to linear, in that you can more quickly pick up the deck and start winning, but you also steadily become better the more you play it.

one more thing:
>your piles all follow pretty simple heuristics
realistically, about 90% of the time this is true. once you know the basic pile forms, you can have fun and win games and not feel like it's entirely your fault when you lose. The reamaining 10% is the fun part.

>>48911555
For me it was shortly after I got back into the game after about 5 years away. I discovered the random card feature on gatherer, and, looking for inspiration for a new kitchen table deck, I clicked it a couple times. Doomsday popped up and I thought, "what is this horseshit? Why would someone do that to themselves?" I've been playing variations of it ever since. Started as a janky kitchen table deck with an Erratic Explosion/Reverberate/Emrakul kill (plus shelldock isle to beat countermagic), and then I played a maniac oath/doomsday hybrid brew in some proxy vintage tournaments, and then I started saving up to get duals and LEDs so I could play in legacy. The end.

>>48911567
You clearly never played Burn nor Sneak and Show if you think that.

>>48913792
Playing out winning hands of ANT is easy, the hard part is knowing when to use cantrips. Playing variance is able to increase your kill speed by entire turns. Knowing when you have enough mana in hand to make using lotus petals on cantrips is not really obvious, but it when its correct to do so it will gain enormous advantages.

Ad Nauseum is also a skill intensive card. Using it from 20 with 1 mana floating or when under pressure is easy, you flip till you win. Playing it when not under pressure or for value is more difficult: you need to know when to stop, which is a function of the contents of your hand etc.

The reason why I think that ANT is tougher is because you have to work with more unknown information. Doomsday does not have non-determonistic kills. When you're going for it, you need to have constructed a scenario where you win if your opponent has no interaction. With ANT 's non-deterministic lines, you need to play odds and make risk/reward determinations.

To summarize, Doomsday requires you to use available information to construct a winning line. ANT uses available information and playing variance

>>48914921
What about the claim that ANT is a more competitive deck? I'm interested in the reasoning behind that, beyond the fact that more people play it.
I'm here wondering which Storm deck I should buy to better win Legacy weeklies with, I like them both.

>>48914921
I defintely agree that Ad Naus can be a complicated card, and it's an aspect that DDFT lacks. Personally I find the fact that there are only deterministic kills an appealing aspect of DDFT. Most of my experience with casting Ad Nauseam comes from playing it in Modern. Knowing when and how to value Ad Naus is certainly easier there, but I know how it can be skill testing.

I think the cantripping is comparable between the decks, though they cantrip a little differently. I definitely find that in like 50% of games I lose, I maybe could have cantripped differently. Doomsday generally runs fewer lotus petals, and so you don't come across the situation you described very often. But you often need to conserve cantrips to draw into doomsday piles, whereas ANT can use cantrips a little more aggressively. But in both decks you still want to maximize the number of cards you see. DDFT also plays more Divining Tops, and they are more integral to how the deck functions.

If you know your deck and your opponents decks well, you can make an informed decision when dealing with the non-determinism of Ad Nauseam. I can definitely see why you'd consider this the thing that makes ANT harder. I'm not sure I agree, but that's fine. It's an aspect DDFT lacks, just like having to freestyle piles that don't fit the usual heuristics is an aspect that ANT lacks. I think that despite ostensibly being similar storm decks, they play differently such that a direct comparison isn't really apt.

>>48915272
I guess I'd give you the old "proxy them up and see which you like better". if you are familiar with your metagame you can make a better decision.

In general, and ANT Man can help me out here, ANT is slightly faster, probably by about half a turn to a turn on average. This can be a big advantage, meta depending. Doomsday is better at beating permanent based hate (for example it can almost totally ignore things like gaddock teeg and Leyline of sanctity, even game 1., heavy discard, and is less vulnerable to graveyard hate. it also plays more lands, and often more basic lands, which can be valuable depending on what you're up against. Their matchups against blue decks are similarly strong, although I think DDFT has a <slightly> better Miracles matchup, and a slightly worse delver matchup, especially vs UR delver. If you expect a lot of Burn, don't play DDFT.

But really you should just buy the pieces for both decks because there's not much difference, cards-wise.

What are some decks you wish more people played? For me it's
-Aluren
-Spanish Inquisition
-Zoo

I think Aluren might undergo a renessaince of sorts with the new tutor being printed in Conspiracy, but I'm not sure. Thoughts?

>>48916630
I'd like to see more hard control other than miracles.
and stompy decks. love me some stompy.

>>48917019
I'd pop a big ol' stiffy for non-miracles hard control decks. I wonder if there's any in the format that are viable? Maybe retool the UB Atog Control decks of yore?

>>48917289
I don't know exactly what 'hard control' means, but standstill decks are your best bet for counter heavy decks.
If counters aren't necessary mono black pox is pretty hard control.
Neither are all that good, but both have had results.

If I have two Karakas, a mana crypt, a Playset of Stoneforge Mystic, and single Jitte and Batterskull, about how much more will I need to spend to make DnT complete? Are there more budget options for remaining big ticket items that don't murder the deck? Or do I just need to bite the bullet

>>48918258
>about how much more will I need to spend to make DnT complete?

Wastes and Ports will hurt your wallet badly. Everything else is kinda affordable.

>>48917019
I wish mono blue control were a thing.
I just want to slam Back to Basics onto the field every game.

>>48915864
DDFT definitely has a better miracles matchup, but its pretty strong for either deck. ANTs primary defence against permenant based hate is speed. Most permanent based hate comes down turn 2, so OTP especially you can kill them before it becomes relevant. Furthermore, because ANT doesn't run a wishboard you can run dedicated anti-permenant slots.

DDFT has better matchup against the decks which ANT is favored against, but is worse against the decks which ANT struggles with. Its matchups are more polarized, so you end up with more inconsistent results.

DDFT usually needs to be in a good position (cards in hand, draw available) while ANT can win from behind with a PIF or AN off the top

>>48895396
Garbage

>>48919393
For the uninitiated, which decks are DDFT/ANT good against?
Is Miracles actually a favourable matchup for Storm?

>>48919542
I think a lot of experienced storm players would say that the miracles matchup is even to favorable.

>>48919393
>ddft generally has to be in a good position (cards in hand, way to draw)
I disagree to some extent. Ddft can go off from very few resources, and SDT makes it so that even when reduced to top decking you're still in the game. I think it's ability to come from behind is comparable to ANT. I agree about it's matchups being more polarized, to some extent. Especially matchups like burn or UR delver.

>>48910773
Stay mad, I could beat you in 3-4 turns.

>>48919542
Miracles is generally even game 1, probably 60/40 in ANTs favor game 2. Its also a very skill intensive matchup, so the better player usually wins.

Death and Taxes is a good matchup for ANT, despite Thalia being a turn 2 kill. Id say around 65%. DDFT struggles more, it's slow enough that they have to deal with the hate pieces, and will have to contend with Vial on 2. Revoker is also way stronger against DDFT.

Delver is a poor matchup, all varieties. Counters + fast pressure is really tough to beat.

Sneak and Show is pretty even. They have a lot of counters and fast pressure, but you can win past an emmy or put in a city of solitude and win through Griselbrand.

Eldrazi is bad. Fast clock combined with permanent based hate leads to one of the decks worst matchups.

For each matchup, you can generally break it down into types of interaction and clock speed. Decks which pack a fast clock and disruption are generally bad. Decks with a lot of disruption and no clock will generally be possible too grind out

>>48920264

>gobboz doing literally anything at all to miracles

But Raging Goblin has haste with no drawbacks! Strictly better than Goblin Guide.

>>48920507
Goblins is actually a pretty good deck against Miracles and clearly favoured. Of course, I'm talking about the deck with Matron, Ringleader and Cavern of Souls.

>>48920608

That's an actual goblin deck. Not gobboz.

>>48920327
It's worth noting that DDFT can beat resolved chalice or thalia more easily game 1, and the fact that it plays 17+ lands means you can grind through hate pieces. I do think ANT has a slightly better average vs DnT. I anticipate doing some sideboard rearranging if DnT becomes significantly more prevalent post-conspiracy.

>>48921604
It definitively is better positioned to beat hate pieces game 1. The real one that I'm worried about is Vial 2, which is an absolute killer.

As a DnT player, I'm thrilled about the new cards. I think they'll give is a huge boost against grindy midrange decks and miracles. I don't think the make the deck too strong: they're 3 drop creatures. They don't make the bad matchups any better

>>48906283
yeah, dredge is still good
I had to sell all my other stuff and I just had dredge left and I accidentally became a dredge dark wizard. It's still in a good spot in the meta because it can actually do alright against miracles if you tech it with 4 ichorids and 4 pimps to just grind them out

>>48911555
I used to play magic with some friends at a local library once a month. This was back in like 2012 and I wanted to build dredge because it was good and cheap at the time, but I was like 15 and didn't have any money. I also had 0 idea how to play the deck.
One day when I was playing my shitty standard WU delver with puresteel paladin deck at the library, some new guy came in with a giant tackle box filled with the top legacy decks. he showed me how to play dredge and he played elves and i really liked what dredge could do.
Fast forward to this last year and I finally had a job that left me with extra money and I actually bought into ANT but I had already bought the stuff to play dredge so I played mostly ANT in college and messed around with dredge. I had to sell my duals/fetches to pay for college at the end of the semester because shit came up but I still kept the LED's because I had made enough money to be ok.
So basically I just ended up with dredge (and All Spells) even though I guess my heart is more in ANT. Dredge is still fun though and it's in a good spot so we'll see what happens

Well I did my Legacy intro-day with the proxy decks I printed off. Huge success. My playgroup adores the format and I'm now organizing a proxy free-to-enter league at the shop I work at. At the end of the five weeks we're gonna buy the winner 2 EMA packs or a piece(s) of their deck as long as it totals less than $30. Hopefully this jump-starts the scene locally.

>>48922594
That's a really cool idea, I wish I had more than 8 players at my LGS let alone more than 1 other person that plays legacy.

>>48922594
Good for you. Getting to play legacy every week in tournament form is absolute blast. Proxys make sure you get to try variety of decks against variety of decks. It makes sideboarding hard, but hey.... It simulates big tournaments as you have to just make guess what you are going to face a lot and build to be able to battle variety of things rather than getting into stagnant meta.

Legacy will never get successful as non proxy among the new players on the format. Reserved list makes sure it's not even possible in hypothetical situation where there is surge of new players due to physical limit of cards.

>>48922212
Uhhh..... Stop makes sure your ichorids are not as good as you hope for. Flash in snapcaster makes sure you are having hard time with your bridges. Terminus makes sure you are having bad time in general. Karakas makes sure your animation targets lose value. Sideboarding RiP will make you hope you are not playing dredge.

I thought fighting miracles with dredge was all about speed.

>>48923475
Thanks, I got tired of having my Tin Fins and Canadian Threshold decks fully done but no one to play with. Plus people at the shop were getting tired of modern and standard.

>>48923483
Yeah, I had to talk to some people about that. A lot of them are fine with the cheaper pieces but it's the duals that get people uncomfortable, however any progress is good progress.

>>48923689
I can understand buying cheaper pieces for legacy deck, but in the end it's pointless if you can't finish it because of duals and such extremely pricey cards. Just make sure nobody is bitching about 100% proxied decks and tell everyone at least proxy in good quality prints to ease playing.

If it wasn't for proxy tournaments, I would have stopped playing this game a long time ago.

>>48923689
A follow up: for anyone who wants to try to do the same thing. For the crash course intro to legacy I proxied up
-Shardless BUG
-Grixis Delver
-Sneak and Show
-Nic Fit
-ANT
-MUD
-Eldrazi
-Imperial Painter
-Miracles
-Grixis Delver
-Oops all spells
-Dredge
-Death and Taxes
-Lands
-Burn

I found this composition gave everyone a good idea of the depth of the format as well as spark discussion about the differences between the formats they were familiar with. I also let people try out my Tin Fins and Threshold decks.

>>48923788
Yeah, and a few of them actually were talking about saving away to buy duals. Everyone is cool with them being printed proxies, and it's a point I stressed. I have a few friends with fully built lists that are also going to come to our league nights. They are as happy as I am to finally be able to play our decks more than once in a blue moon.

>>48923922
One thing I'm not sure about tho. We have a nominal fee to make a price pool in each evening, but as you are doing a season... Doesn't it bring some issues with actually winning? Wouldn't something like redeemable credits in each evening accelerate getting cardpool bigger among players as chance for getting credits for different people grow?

>>48924054
That's what I was thinking, and we are still considering it. I think we will poll the players and figure it out what everyone wants. My rationale behind doing a season was to get people comfortable with the format first, however I do like the idea of people getting a credit amount each night. So that way even if you don't take it all, you can still redeem it towards your playset of probes or what have you.

>>48899017
Are you joking? Mind's Desire is absolutely busted, I'd place it easily in above almost every other banned card. It's on the same level as Yawgwill.

Mind Twist would not see play, Earthcraft would not see play, Recruiter would make Goblins mediocre which would be nice.

Goblins will also never be viable in it's current form when Miracles and combo decks exist. The deck has the same problems as Elves, Elves just has game because it has a fast and powerful combo to fall back on. Why shouldn't Goblins have the same?

>>48925499
Goblins is actually pretty favored against miracles
You run cavern of souls and your threats are significant enough that only one or two of them on the board will force out removal and you run enough of them that eventually you'll manage to deal 20.
Combo does wreck them though

>>48894196
>This legacy thread is looking pretty dead...
Hey there.

Being played the standard game, being happy with modern, now I'm curious about legacy.

For a beginner what would you consider some of the "Staples" to have for legacy/vintage? Barring the Power 9, dual lands, and fetch lands.

Starting off slow so no 2000$ Black lotus: What are some must haves that are under or at least around 50$ each? If there are some higher priced cards that are absolutes-must-gets, that's fine, mention them, but please also mention a to-get 50$

>>48915272
don't play storm, if you want to win just play DnT
>>48919393
The real difference is that In ANT you lose to your own Ad nauseum when in DDFT you die because they remove your laboratory maniac. now i play dredge, Shardless Bug and Miracles, and if i had to choose which deck to use against any storm, it would be Shardless

>>48925561
Save yourself a lot of money
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvseDNbzPtM

>>48925561
Brainstorm, Gitaxian Probe, Ponder, Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Reanimate, Entomb, Dark Confidant, Sensei's Top, Monastery Mentor (played extensively in vintage), Wasteland, Swords to Plowshares, Mother of Runes, etc etc

Hey guys my friend is thinking of making a budget legacy deck and he wants to turn creatures sideways a lot so I suggested goblins. What's a pretty stock list for them and then I might need help picking some goblins that are cheaper if any are super expensive

>>48925561
>i cant google

might as well call yourself a beginner in internet

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/format-staples/legacy/full/all

>>48925712
Thunder spirit?
Erhnam Djinn?

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>>48894196
Why is Death and Taxes the master deck?

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>>48926155
Because thalia is format queen and purest waifu

>>48926155
because WOTC loves giving them new shit

>>48926155
Because Mono white control is amazing

>>48926155

WotC wants to make the game Creatures: the Tappening at all levels.

This makes sense from a business decision - to your casual onlooker, more things on the board means things look more interesting. It's bad in modern now where every deck is aggro or midrange creature strategies, but it's especially bad in standard.

Legacy will look more and more like modern as they print better tools to nerf spell-based decks in under the guise of "interactivity" and "exciting board states." It will never get as bad as the other formats because of the power level of cards and because of FoW, but except more and better creatures in the next few years.

>>48926664
i wonder if people will eventually make special rules for legacy, like "all legacy sets up until this set" if creatures get out of control.

>>48926851
>>48926664

People like creatures. standard and modern are at his max popularity right now. don't worry, all autist can still play storm though

>>48926851
Legacy will probably already be dead before it reaches that state.

>>48925696
I think both ANT and DDFT are favored against Shardless.

>>48926922
Just if you don't draw FoW and Hymn. extra points if you get Hymn with Shardless

>>48926851
It's called old school. We meet Saturday's at the pub.

>>48926664
The error with this is that DnT is a prison deck, the only strategy more hated than hard control. WotC pushing it now flies in the face of most previous decisions about the format.

"Creatures: the Tappening" has always been more of a concern about shit like siege rhino and Reality Smasher: where its just a body that attacks and nothing else

>>48926942
While force and hymn are fine against Storm, Shardless' inability to apply fast pressure is why its a great matchup for storm

>>48928074
Now what if they printed a 1 drop with cascade and/or a 2 drop with cascade?

>>48928159
A 1 drop with cascade would be exceptionally easy to break (it will always hit hypergenesis, restore balance or Ancestral Vision.)

A 2 drop would be less easy to bust, but still pretty ridiculously good.

>>48928260
Yeah I wasn't overly serious considering that they'd be ridiculous in a dedicated cascade deck, even if they were bad themselves

>>48928260
>>48928604
I don't know why I don't play Shardless BUG becuase cascade is my absolute favourite ability by far in magic. I guess that control lyfe is the lyfe for me

Playing ANT the other week, new with the deck

Up against aggro loam, post board, on the draw

>He drops Leyline of the Void and Chalice on 1 T1

>I draw something irrelevant, go land, petal, petal, cabal ritual, cabal ritual, LED, infernal tutor into ad nauseum, beat him turn 1

wtf I was told this deck was real, but seriously?

>>48929259
Don't expect it everytime, and sometimes ad nauseum will just kill you or you'll get a bit greedy and kill yourself

>>48903102
I bought duals and FOWs and some fetches in the early 2000s when I was in middle school.

Cost me all of my pocket money, and probably cost me getting laid from ages 14-16. Never got rid of them.

>>48929267
Yeah, honestly, Ad Nauseum has been a fucking house for me lately.


I'm getting better Ad Nauseums now than when I was on TES, which is surely just variance, but I think I just had bad luck before, because they seem pretty reasonable now.


Then again I've been up against infect a lot lately, and Ad Naus is fairly safe in that matchup.
Back on the U/B Omni for a bit now, so I'll worry about killing myself with my own spells later.

>>48929309
I wish I played magic in middle school or wasn't all "20 BUCKS FOR A CARD THAT'S TOO MUCH" in highschool

>>48928260
The reason Wizards haven't printed any Cascaders at two is that there's no real cost involved if you always want to hit one specific card with it in most formats. With the cheapest ones costing three you have to get creative to achieve the same effect as you can't simply skip your one drops but play all the 2-mana spells you could wish for.

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>>48929358
The thing was, I WAS like "wtf that's too much money" at the time.

My buddy (same age) browbeat into buying them because "they will only increase in value".

Irony is, he doesn't play anymore (though he still has his collection with a fair few duals and a playset of FOW, plus much more I'm sure)

>>48929380
Yeah I know, like I said it's was a joke and I sincerely hope they don't print cascade cards at 1 and 2 mana unless they have severe drawbacks

>>48925499
>Mind's Desire is absolutely busted
I've argued with so many goddamn people on this board, and no, it is not busted at all, it pretty much only works in high tide, and likely doesn't even make that deck tier 1 due to it folding way to hard to permanent interaction and still being at best a turn 3 deck (usually turn 4).
It is close to useless in ANT (sideboard card to replace AN in some matchups at best, and I don't think it does it as well as empty) and barely improves TES's wishboard.
>Mind Twist would not see play, Earthcraft would not see play
Glad we're in agreement? They might see fringe play, but I agree not much.
>Goblins will also never be viable in it's current form when Miracles and combo decks exist
Recruiter would make goblins signifigantly different than its current form, as I said, it likely could come off, but unlike mind twist or earthcraft where there is basically 0 risk, or mind's desire where there is negligable risk, recruiter is actually risky. A 2 mana card to automatically win every 'fair' matchup is not a fair card, and riskier than anything else that can be considered for unbans.

>>48930401
Did you play when Desire was legal? Here's why it shouldn't be unbanned: although people might not be able to immediately build a broken Desire deck, the threat of an absolutely busted deck is still real. To make Desire busted, you only need a deck that can generate 4UU on turn 1-2 easily. The problem with unbanning Desire is that if this deck can be built, it will be too good, and it isn't that far out of the realm of possibility

>>48930622
>Did you play when Desire was legal
Desire was literally never legal in legacy, it is the only card in history to ever get preemptively banned. It was legal in extended and standard, and never got banned in either of those formats (it was only a meme deck in standard). I've played the extended deck, though only after it rotated out.
>To make Desire busted, you only need a deck that can generate 4UU on turn 1-2 easily
I want to replace the word desire with empty the warrens and reflect on that statement some more. Belcher is not a good deck and it only needs to get to 3R (or 4RR with burning wish, or 7 over multiple turns with belcher) to basically garuntee winning the game unless the opponent has a force or a fast sweeper and red mana is significantly easier to produce than blue mana and that deck gets to run 11 threats instead of 4 (running tutors just makes the already largely unfeasible mana cost even worse) and 8 of those threats can utilize LED. I have to ask why you would think that mind's desire has any potential to be better than belcher if built to be a blisteringly fast deck? What would it potentially have going for it?

>>48930821
>What would it potentially have going for it?
Not that guy, I have no idea if the deck would be good or not, but presumably you get to run FoW and a bunch of cantrips.
Also if you cast it for like 6 storm and it fizzles you've probably reloaded somewhat through free brainstorms and probes.
Of course, running cantrips and protection makes you a lot slower, but eh, I really don't know enough to actually say anything.

>>48930821
Just want to chime in mentioning that Mind's Desire going off is a chain reaction, where you can go and hit more copies of Mind's Desire, leading to a quite high storm count.

>>48928159
Turn 1 hypergenesis?

....ohhh god

dead format dead thread

>>48935157
Rather no posts than modern thread level shit show.

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Is anyone's meta as Miracles focused as mine? Last FNM I went to, I literally was the only one not playing Miracles or some close variant to it. What's a good deck to abuse this homogeneity?

>>48935233
12 post, manaless dredge or jund

>>48935233
Combo decks, or if you want to watch them call you a faggot with no skill and is playing a deck gat should be banned (the deck is fine) play cloud post

>>48935276
>>48935276
>>48935291

Might try manaless dredge, since grave hate is not as prevalent as it used to. FYI, I was on Reanimator last time, which wasn't the best choice all things considered. I just love my Entombs to death though.

>>48930821
Belcher is an all in deck that can't run cantrips or interaction. 7 of belchers win conditions allow the opponent to untap.

A Desire deck would be able to run a huge pile of cantrips and forces, and going off would not allow the opponent to untap

>>48933020
I assumed that for turn 1-2 version of the deck, I've tested several versions of the deck with 4 mind's desires and other than high tide (where I still think that the correct number around is 2) all of those decks sucked on comical levels.
>Belcher is an all in deck that can't run cantrips or interaction
If you are running cantrips or interaction you are deluding your deck, I'm not saying that that wouldn't be the correct way to build the deck (obviously it would), I'm saying that mind's desire doesn't measure up to empty the warrens for a fast kill.
>7 of belchers win conditions allow the opponent to untap.
I'd guess with equal storm a turn 1 empty has a greater chance of winning than a turn 1 MD despite the latter being much harder to do.
>A Desire deck would be able to run a huge pile of cantrips and forces...
Forces (barring high tide) are incredibly bad when trying to get to 6 mana, there is a reason ANT doesn't run force, and it isn't because its blue count isn't high enough. As for cantrips and interaction ANT already does that and it does it better.
Lets say you resolved an infernal tutor and have 6 mana floating, most opponents are going to have dealt 2 damage to themselves with fetches and the like (if it is so early in the game that they haven't that means you can almost always go for AN), meaning you can infernal tutor for another infernal if you are at 8 storm meaning mind's desire can only be used if the storm was <8: I'd guess the 50% win rate for MD with 0 mana floating for ANT is around 6 storm, but it is even more situational; PiF wins the game from that spot with 4 mana in grave, meaning MD is pretty much only useful if your opponent has grave hate. A version warped to MD *could* make the chance of winning from 5 storm over 50%, but it still wouldn't even measure up to PiF or AN.
If you have a list I can test it like I did to all the terrible lists before, but MD can't get broken.

>>48937567
meant to reply to >>48935865

>>48937567
What about using MD to cast a huge spell like Emrakul?

>>48927234
DNT is a beatdown deck with disruptive elements to fight unfair decks, none of its pieces say "you don't get play" like Lantern+millrocks or RIP Energy Field with counter backup does. Siege Rhinos don't line up too well Charbelcher and Tendrils so they have to print the next best thing, dumb beaters that also buy you time vs said cards.

>>48937663
Kek, can't tell if you're serious.

I'm getting in to legacy from modern and I have a question.

I keep hearing that knowing a deck well is very important (which I understand), since there are so many interactions and different cards in legacy.
But I also hear that you can win with "any" deck if you know it well and that you can't really apply the "tiers" concept to legacy.

Is this true or just a meme?

Can I just pet any competitive deck and win with ir?

>>48937702
Oh yeah, I forgot the shuffle.

For what it is, Mind's Desire does seem fairly hard to break.

>>48937741
Legacy has tiers and anyone who tells you otherwise is delusional, but there's plenty of opportunity to place with rogue decks.

>>48937685
>none of its pieces say "you don't get play"
Rest in peace and ethersworn post board, new sanctum prelate, but OK for the most part: in any case that is a silly definition of prison, I'd call standard GW astral slide a prison deck, but it still 'allowed its opponent to play' it just made it more difficult, just like mother of runes, or thalia does
I agree that wizards is printing more hatebears for bad reasons, but it isn't 'we want legacy to only be creatures' more than 'we want legacy people to buy our product, but printing things that make for non-creature decks generally goes against our design philosophy and might piss off casuals'.
In any case I'm more annoyed at young pyromancer and monestery mentor as those allow and create decks that literally do nothing but attack with practically vanilla creatures.

>>48937741
Legacy definitely has tiers, some decks are just outright better than others or more consistent. However, local metas vary a lot more in legacy so if you do build and refine a deck of your own; you can do well in a local tournament if you are skilled with it

>>48937685
DnT is a mana denial deck. It preys on Blue decks that arec looking to cantrip into mana primarily. Its draws are looking too make the opponents deck not do what its supposed to do. Each of its lock pieces attacking for 2 is what makes this strategy possible.

Hatebears allow a prison deck to exist in the format that's extremely interactive, which is ultimately good for the format.

>>48937567
So, to reiterate the point: although a busted Desire deck may not be initially obvious, the threat of it is too great for it to be unbanned. It's not a 1 of in ANT. It's a whole deck onto itself.

Also, I think high tide wants the full set of 4UU: you win the game.

>>48938780
>It's not a 1 of in ANT. It's a whole deck onto itself.
I literally talked about how I have tested with different versions of Desire decks, generally with 4 desires and how they all failed horribly, it wasn't 'this is suboptimal, but I could see it being decent' it was 'this shows legitimately less promise than than mono blue martyr'.
>Also, I think high tide wants the full set of 4UU: you win the game.
Time spiral basically already is that, and it is better to go off with. Mind's desire can be used as a hopeful time spiral in a pinch, but generally you want to use it once you have already spiraled at least once. Usually you go off either going: high tide, timespiral (2 storm if desire) or, high tide, turnabout, spiral (3 storm) mind's desire becomes roughly equal to spiral at around 6-7 storm (you can't cantrip into a business spell with mind's desire like you can with spiral) and high tide variants already generally win when they resolve spiral already.

>>48939682
1. "I couldn't find the deck =/= the deck doesn't exist". Making 6 mana is easy. Making UU is not. If this is all that's holding the deck back, its not safe.

2. If the card is either useless as you claim or broken as I claim, why would you want it unbanned

3. Time spiral usually leads you to victory, but the next hand needs to have a way to keep going off, usually another Spiral or way to find Spiral. Desire can be worse your first time around, but after your initial Desire is significantly better.

>>48940171
>"I couldn't find the deck =/= the deck doesn't exist"
The deck isn't findable== the deck doesn't exist though, and me (and everyone else in this thread and several others) not finding the deck or anything close to it suggests that it doesn't exist, yes.
>Making 6 mana is easy
Considering you can't use LED and have to run cantrips, protection and the spell itself: no, no it isn't.
>If this is all that's holding the deck back, its not safe.
OK great. Everything holding back every other storm deck is also holding it back. Sounds like it wouldn't be broken.
>If the card is either useless as you claim or broken as I claim, why would you want it unbanned
You could literally say that about any card on the ban list, and I don't think that it's useless, I think it will see play in high tide, the wish board for TES and maybe as a sideboard card for ANT as I've said several times.
>Desire can be worse your first time around, but after your initial Desire is significantly better.
Yes? Which is why you would want 2 of them instead of 4? You *might* not want any, for reason it is largely a 'win more' card but I think 2 would be reasonable, I just don't like it as much as spiral and don't want 8 6 mana spells in the deck.
I don't understand what about the card you find potentially broken. Seriously, explain what you think *could* happen and why mind's desire could fill some role better than any other storm enabler or storm card.

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Played in SCG Legacy Classic on July 31st. Finished 2nd of 118

I built the sideboard to be solid against Eldrazi and Miracles, hence the second path and two walkers. The second path should have been a dismember (one colorless mana is much better than 1 white). I also found that the opponents running land hate targeted my white sources almost exclusively, so cutting the path and avoiding double white (elspeth) spells is probably a good idea, though miracles won't disrupt your mana. New Tamiyo might be better in that spot, fine against miracles, excellent against shardless, etc... though almost any walker or card advantage spell is probably fine for the purpose.

Round 1: RUG Delver (W 2-0), Started off strong. He started with T1 goose, which is not scary. My dorks were able to give me solid mana. Threw some test spells into the maw of daze and force (stoneforge and clique) to allow me to stick library and TNN. Game 2, Brought in path, decay and flusterstorm. He again started with T1 goose and I was the bigger control deck, sitting back, putting down road blocks and taking him off of green mana.

Round 2: Lands (W 2-0), As I have said, I love this matchup. My opponent had just finished his deck before the tournament so was not yet fluent with the deck. G1 I stuck an early deathrite, followed by library and wasteland. With library I floated white source and plow. When I tapped the wasteland to play a TNN he took his chance on his turn to gamble for one combo piece and rotate for the other, making the 20/20. I untapped used the libary to draw white source + plow and put him up to 35. Wasteland and deathrite meant he never got going again, and I quickly killed him. Game 2 I brought in 2x path, 2x mage, 2x surgical, 1x RIP, 1x invasive surgery, +1 grip, +1 decay. -4 plow, -1 sofai, -3 daze, -2 mystic. Didn't see sideboard cards just built an army and disrupted long enough with waste, deathrite and 2 hard cast forces on life from the loams to keep him from doing anything.

>>48940763

Round 3: UW stoneblade with thought-knot (2-0), He had apparently seen me playing in the earlier rounds and sat down sulking, not wanting to deal with TNN. His mana draws were poor both games so I didn't have to do much. After seeing the decklist, it looks very interesting but I did not get to play against this deck when it was performing well. Game 2 had a memorable blow out where my one-of post board, on-the-draw daze countered his batterskull. He did well for the rest of the day, so the deck likely has chops but when we talked he said it wasn't quite there yet. One to keep an eye on.

Round 4: Eldrazi aggro (2-1), Sitting down I new he was on Eldrazi. Game 1 I mulliganed an ok hand, since I knew it wasn't good in the matchup, and was rewarded with a hand that cast mystic on T2 and was swinging with Jitte on T3. He made a string of chump blockers but couldn't keep the jitte at bay. He showed me two basic wastes in game 1 which I thought was interesting. Game 2, brought in paths (despite the wastes), decay, grip, and garruk, I again mulliganed to 6. Kept trop, waste, deathrite, and his early wasteland took me off colored sources long enough for him to run me over. Game 3 he didn't do a ton. Jitte and TNN were enough.

>>48940789

Round 5: Grixis Delver, turbo angler (2-1), Ben is an outstanding player. I knew he was playing Grixis but was very much caught off guard by a snapcaster in game 1. In game 2 we played a low resource game trading wastelands. Luckily for me he made one glaring error in this game, on my turn I wasted him off of colored lands, but he had an angler and a wasteland of his own in play. He used his waste in his next pre-combat main phase to hit one of my trops. I floated blue. He then attempted to pass into combat. I used my floating mana and noble + second trop to cast clique. He revealed a hand with a decay (which I took), a daze and a polluted delta, along with some other cards he wasn't near casting. Had he played the delta, I could not have cliqued and he almost certainly wins. Game 3 we play another low resource game but I am able to get a better mana footing and TNN plus exalted does the job.

Round 6: D&T (1-2); At this point, I am feeling great, one of only 3 5-0's, paired against another 5-0 and based on the standings we can both double draw in. I do a poor job of explaining this however and my opponent decides he wants to play. I tilt HARD. My opponent is playing the new Thalia which is annoying for my deck, so I attempt to plow it completely missing that my opponent played a Karakas the previous turn. I later miss a vial activation with known information... just a mess. I win game 2 off of a zealous persecution and game 3 he has double waste, double port and a plow for my dork and I never do much. His sword of fire and ice did a lot of work in all three games. Crestfallen, I examine the standings for as long as possible before the next round is called.

>>48940814

Round 7: D&T, ID. When sitting down I know a draw locks in my opponent and puts me at >90% to top 8. Of the people on 15 points I had the highest breakers by a mile (all three categories) and even better against the people with 13 points. My opponent had 16 points, so a draw locked him in for top 8. I took that risk that a draw would put me into 8th rather than 9th (some truly weird breaker stuff would have had to happen). My strong start to the day allowed me to get away with this, making the 8th spot with room to spare.


Top8 :same D&T player from round 6 (2-0), He got me in round 6 but I played these games tight and they were not close. His success with SoFaI and new Thalia in our previous round blinded him somewhat I think. Game one I had a nice play. He had an active mystic (sofai in hand) with 3 mana. I had deathrite, stoneforge, TNN. He attempted to plow my deathrite so I cast daze to put him to a decision, get rid of my deathrite by paying for the daze or activate his mystic this turn. He tanked for a while. Without the daze, he would have been able to force me to chump with my mystic and then would have started getting hits in with the sword, racing my TNN +jitte (in hand). He let me keep the deathrite choosing to get his sword into play. My mystic blocked his so sworded guy the following turn, I then put in and equipped my jitte and attacked getting counters. A chump with my deathrite and string of nobles I drew put him too far behind to recover and a StP for the revoker he eventually put on jitte locked him out a few turns later. Game 2 he started slowly but had a needle for my two deathrites. I found the third deathrite the following turn (sigh). Triple Deathrite beat down accompanied by a string of removal spells and a Kgrip to remove the needle late in the game was enough to get the win. After round 6, I must admit this one felt very good.

>>48940835

Top 4 ANT (2-1), As the 8 seed I was on the draw throughout top 8. I knew he was on ANT, so I was unsurprised when my mediocre 6 card keep and scry to the bottom got killed on T2. Game 2 I mulled to 5 and thought I was truly out of it, but trop, noble, daze, canonist were enough to make my first 2 turns very good. I found a meddling mage for T3 and 2/2 beatdown did the job. Game 3 I had a very solid hand and again including a T2 canonist with counter back up, so when he didn't kill me on T1, I was well positioned and took it relatively easily.

Finals Grixis Delver, turbo angler (1-2) Rematch of round 5. Game 1 I had a strong start but his wasteland, bolt and force all on T2 put me way behind. I was able to stablize at 4 life with a mystic into batterskull and a counterspell for his dismember. G2 I mulled to 6. It was back and forth but he got it. Game 3 I kept a mana heavy hand (2 noble, tundra, trop, wasteland) figuring that as long as he didn't have forked bolt this hand would let me have the mana advantage throughout and I would be in good shape. On his T2 when he wastelanded my tundra and forked bolted both of my nobles I fell way behind. My remaining tropical island didn't cast the string of white spells I drew and when I found another land it was my basic forest. A brainstorm lock a turn later was the writing on the wall. He killed me with 2 gurmag anglers.

Other than losing my head in round 6 I am happy with how I played. I continue to love the deck, and like other deathblade decks it is infinitely tunable which is nice.

>>48940579
Just yelling from the backseat.

After your testing it in high tide, you don't think it's broken as fuck? Pretty interesting to me since making 6 mana really isn't hard in dedicated deck and making a card that's easier to storm off than any other storm card is pretty much.

>>48940814
>I tilt HARD
>After round 6, I must admit this one felt very good.

what do you exactly mean by these?
if there's one thing i hate is draw fags complaining other people dont wanna draw.

>>48940579
Why Desire is the best storm enabler:
1. Uncounterable. You do not need to run protection in a Desire deck, they need to counter mana rather than business

2. Lethal storm is around 5-6 in the right deck. As such, you do not need to run other cards to enable it to be lethal like you do with tendrils.

How much high tide have you played? Not needing to go through multiple Spiral hands or run shit like meditate makes the deck way better. Desire is win more in the way that PiF is win more in ANT.

>>48928260
>1 drop with cascade
But we already got an Ancestral Recall reprint in Treasure Cruise, why would you want a better one?

>the people winning legacy events in my area are playing stuff like manaless dredge, imperial painter, belcher
midwest is weird

>>48941605
>1. Uncounterable. You do not need to run protection in a Desire deck, they need to counter mana rather than business
Not really. You need to run protection in a desire deck because being anything faster that a turn 3 deck is unrealistic due UU mana and you otherwise lose to any combo deck or deck with permanent interaction. Needing to counter mana rather than business is not as good as it sounds, and is a situation that already happens in ANT due to playing discard spells. If your opponent waits to counter your second ritual, your first will often be wasted.
Mind's desire is also weak against stifle, normal storm doesn't have to worry about it as much as they will be able to cast a discard spell when going for either AN or PiF but it is serious against Mind's desire, countering the spells after mind's desire is also not negligible.
>2. Lethal storm is around 5-6 in the right deck. As such, you do not need to run other cards to enable it to be lethal like you do with tendrils.
You need a kill condition: so yeah, you do. This also just doesn't make sense as an argument, I ask 'why is this card better than AN or PiF with tutors to grab them' and you reply 'because it doesn't need AN or PiF'? Ok, AN and PiF don't need Mind's Desire. I acknowledged it can kill from 5 storm earlier, so does PiF.
>How much high tide have you played? Not needing to go through multiple Spiral hands or run shit like meditate makes the deck way better
Haven't played enough high tide I'll admit, but in the hand before a spiral (which from every indication that my minimal experience and general logic gives me) is the most important hand, and in the first hand the mind's desires tended to just rot there, to be pitched forced or brainstormed away.
>Desire is win more in the way that PiF is win more in ANT.
From what I have played of normal high tide I agree Mind's desire's capacity to close out the game is significant, but I wouldn't put it that far.

this togores guy looks like a dick
typical storm player

>>48942792
where are you seeing him? last time I remember him being on camera was GP Prague.

>>48943906
he was streaming when i said that, /togorestcg i think

>>48942365
Hey I checked out the SCG Legacy tournament from this weekend and Manaless Dredge took 2nd place.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=3&start_date=08/21/2016&end_date=08/21/2016&event_ID=36&city=Somerset&state=NJ&limit=50
How does that even happen?

Buddy of mine is already throwing together a Spy Kit/Mask of the Mimic deck bent on turn two Blightsteel/Terrastodon/Inkwell Leviathan

>>48944208
Dredge, manaless more specifically benefit from her as much as they are disadvantaged by it. Their is often high periods where hate is high, and it does poorly on the meta. This ends up dying down as dredge stops showing up only to come back again with little hate against it

>>48944374
Benefit from hate*

>>48944374
>their
There*, Jesus my phone's auto correct is cancerous

>>48944208
Because the Twin Cities and Wisconsin have weird metas
A lot of the top players I know play stuff like Jund/RUW control (not miracles) and stuff like imperial painter
There's a few tryhards here but a lot of people love playing fun combo decks. People are so polite here they don't run that much hate

>>48911555
Elves is my favorite tribe and you don't need the duals for the deck to function. Although I have considered buying into something else. Maybe miracles, but fuck the cost of dual lands.

>>48944901
>RUW control (not miracles)
What does this look like now that DTT and Cruise are banned?

>>48945010
It was weird, he basically just modified his modern deck with extra legacy cards. It ran stuff like Bolts, Snaps, Swords, like 2 PtE, Forces, Daze, Spell Snare, Jaces, an Elspeth, Brainstorms, and he tried to win with celestial colonnade. I forget what else the deck had but it was weird, it was kinda like a delver deck sans delver. Think it had an Ajani Vengeant too iirc
It was really fucking weird, but he teched it to fight whatever minimeta the shop had that day. he was a great player, i don't think anyone else could have done it

>>48945076
That sounds cool. I wish non-Miracles control decks were more viable in Legacy.

>>48945076
To me that sounds like there is still another control deck to be played in legacy that isn't miracles. (Not that I'd stop playing it, damn I love it)

>>48945108
He broke it out when people brought a ton of midrange decks, it was funny to watch people struggle with it

>>48945108
Like I said >>48945111 here, I do think there is another U/W/x Control deck out there, I think it just needs the right meta to shine out, a player to champion it and maybe 1 card that's really good that miracles can't play

>>48945178
>maybe 1 card that's really good that miracles can't play
Stoneforge?
It might work if you ran like 2 mentor too. Mentor is usually a weak play on turn 3 in control but this deck would do other things early on and since it ran so many cheap cards it was really easy to make use of it the turn it came in
Something like a RUW Stoneblade maybe, idk just spitballing

>>48945354
I think the deck would just become jeskai Stoneblade at that point, which can be very controlly but I mean a dedicated control deck. I was thinking something that maybe prevents you from using alternate casting costs? I.e miracles and or deny the counter top mini lock out somehow and being a resilient creature/artifact/enchantment. It would also have another upside but I'm pretty bad at making up cards so I don't know where to go from there

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>>48945111
>>48945178
Years ago Adrian Sullivan played this pile to a respectable finish at an Open.

The Baron:
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Lord of Extinction
1 Urza's Factory
1 Miren, the Moaning Well
1 Crucible Of Worlds
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Polluted Delta
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Swamp
2 Island
4 Innocent Blood
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Counterspell
3 Fact or Fiction
4 Brainstorm
3 Wasteland
2 Gaea's Blessing
4 Force of Will
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea

Sideboard
1 Consuming Vapors
3 Thoughtseize
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
1 Putrefy
1 Tsabo's Decree
1 Blue Elemental Blast

Legacy has changed a lot since then, though. I still think the idea of using pic related to add card quality and inevitability to a control deck is really cool. I might try building Adrian's deck for the next /tg/ tournament to see how it stands up to current decks.

>>48945431
This is interesting but I feel like the combo Matchup would be dreadful

>>48945431
could be updated with flusterstorm and decay
don't know if it needs DRS, if it does idk if it would want 4, maybe 1 or 2 tops

>>48945530
Top doesn't seem great in the deck, same with counter balance. Maybe it just needs 1 piece of something...I honestly can't put my name on it. This deck does look fine though and would probably do amazing if combo decks weren't prevalent. I could see the deck easily running DRS and Lilliana and being great.

>>48945496
>>48945530
Here's the article, if you guys are interested.
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/19810_Sullivan_Library_The_Baron_in_Columbus.html

>>48945955
it just seems like the deck was a progenitor to shardless, which begs the question why play this over that?
Gaeas doesn't seem better than Deathrite in any scenario
Lord is cute in that it gets around top but that doesn't seem like enough
Innocent blood is underrated
Deed is cool, decay might be better though
Tar Pit is probably better than the factories

Overall it still feels to slow but I'd have to try it out

>>48945955

Yeah, I fished out the article, I had it favourited lol. Makes me wonder if he'd actually try fixing it and see if it'd any good

>>48942673
1. Stifle is just as good against Minds Desire as it is against regular storm. Worse actually, you still get to flip a card. As for the deck being slower, when you build a whole deck around generating 4UU you can do it before turn 3.

2. Minds Desire is the kill condition. You flip some cards, if you hit a Tendrils or Desire you win. Why is it better than AN or PiF? Several reasons. Its not life total, CMC or graveyard dependent, it cant be forced or spell pierced, and its one mana cheaper than either of them. You don't need to set anything up, just cast a Desire, eventually flip a Tendrils and then win.

High Tide is extremely durdley. Initially going off, you usually need one of everything including a business spell, which is not always easy to set up. In each subsequent hand, if you don't have the Spiral you need to cantrip into it. In any of those hands, if you cast a Desire you just win. Hell, even if you just go with an initial Desire for 5 you can pretty easily flip a Desire or a Spiral, which should be enough to win.

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>>48945108
Mono Blue Control when?

>>48946885
When they print a UUUUU cost repeatable stifle
or when top gets banned ;^)

>>48946913
If top gets banned I doubt mono-blue control prop up and take its spot. It would probably be a U/W/x deck still

>>48946856
>Stifle is just as good against Minds Desire as it is against regular storm
Did you literally not read what I wrote? No it isn't, seriously reread my last post and address what I said there.
>As for the deck being slower, when you build a whole deck around generating 4UU you can do it before turn 3.
Except you can't build 'the whole deck' around it because you need interaction and consistency, the only viable way to get an extra blue source is lotus petal, and you aren't going to run into to one of those every game.
>You hit a Tendrils you win.
IT SOUNDS LIKE TENDRILS IS THE KILL CONDITION HUH?
>it cant be forced or spell pierced
When the fuck would spell-peircing a ritual ever be significantly worse than the final spell? the ability for you to be able to go off can't possibly change. Have you ever played belcher? Or storm?
>and its one mana cheaper than either of them
Including the tutor? The tutor adds the ability to use LED (although PiF could use it already I guess) and gives versatility, people could just play a bunch of tendrils and PiF (which is what you are basically doing with desire) but you're criticizing ANT for having a better option than that?
>Just cast a Desire and then win.
Please just fucking test your stupid fucking ideas already. Explaining how a deck should function when everything is working well is not the same as proving it to be good.
>need one of everything including a business spell
I've played high tide before, just not much. You need a high tide and a spiral; it is preferable if you have more tides and turnabouts but those aren't even always needed.
>In any of those hands, if you cast a Desire you just win
In all my time playing high tide or against it the only times that the high tide player lost after resolving time spiral was when there was a hate effect in play, the high tides got surgicaled, or there were only 3 lands. Pushing a 80% win scenario into a 100% win scenario isn't going to break high tide, let alone 95 and 98.

I don't understand why them stifling your storm trigger earlier rather than later is better. You can still run disruption in a MD deck. You need to clear stifle with any build.

>he only viable way to get an extra blue source is lotus petal
Lotus Petal, Filer Lands, Chrome Mox, Pentad Prism, Manamorphose. Its almost like if you build a Desire deck, you would want to be able to cast Desire.

>IT SOUNDS LIKE TENDRILS IS THE KILL CONDITION HUH?
Yes, Tendrils is LITERALLY the card that kills you. Minds Desire can find it and cast it, and when it does the other cards you flip bolster your storm. This point is probably the stupidest point you've argued.

>When the fuck would spell-piercing a ritual ever be significantly worse than the final spell? When is it worse to have your tutor spell pierced than your ritual? Every time. It takes a business spell out of your hand.
(which is what you are basically doing with desire) but you're criticizing ANT for having a better option than that?
Ok this is really confusing. Im not criticizing ANT. Im talking about an infinitely better storm engine. LED is clearly better in ANT, and the whole deck is pretty much built to maximize its usefulness. When you have the ability to build your whole deck around a different card, with less restrictions, you run different cards. Really not sure what this sentence means.

>>48947303
>>48947761

>Please just fucking test your stupid fucking ideas already
While I would love to sit around and spend a week optimizing a deck thats not legal in any format and never will be legal, I just don't have the time. I've played storm, I've played with Desire. I know what the card can do. I don't care that some guy on 4chan couldn't break it in 30 minutes, the card is very easy to bust.

>In all my time playing high tide or against it the only times that the high tide player lost
Im glad you're so lucky. Fizzling with High Tide happens, as does Spiraling them into interaction. Desire gives you additional Business spells and an instant kill condition, which the deck sorely lacks.

>>48947761
>I don't understand why them stifling your storm trigger earlier rather than later is better.
Because the card that needs to resolve for ANT is AN or PiF and once those resolve you can almost always afford to use a discard spell to take the stifle away, which is exactly what I said in my previous post.
>Chrome Mox, Pentad Prism
These don't even count as cards. Chrome mox is terrible for desire.
>Yes, Tendrils is LITERALLY the card that kills you. Minds Desire can find it and cast it, and when it does the other cards you flip bolster your storm
You fucking complained about how ANT "need to run other cards to enable it to be lethal like you do with tendrils." My point was if you are counting Minds desire as the kill card you need to count PiF or AN as the kill card. I don't care if you call MD a kill card or what, but if you are than so are AN and PiF. They aren't "other cards"
>Really not sure what this sentence means.
You said that PiF and AN costed more than MD because you usually tutor for them. I was pointing out how stupid that was due to the fact that the reason MD wouldn't play tutors isn't because they wouldn't be good but because it is unfeasible, you were acting like that weakness was a strength.
>I've played with Desire. I know what the card can do. I don't care that some guy on 4chan couldn't break it in 30 minutes, the card is very easy to bust.
I really haven't even made an honest effort in a while, the last few decks I've tested were made by retards like you who thought that the card was busted only to get disheartened.
>Im glad you're so lucky.
And everyone I've played against is so lucky too!
>Desire gives you additional Business spells and an instant kill condition, which the deck sorely lacks.
The most important thing is resolving spiral. Even if your win rate post spiral is 80%(lol) and you think MD would raise it to 95 it wouldn't break high tide. It's a tier 3 deck currently.

>>48948299
So you live in a world where 80% of the time Spiral gets there and ANT always has mana for extra discard spells. Stifle is still a relatively weak card against desire.

Not needing tutors to work is a downside? PiF does nothing without a tutor to go with it. Try playing a deck with multiple AN's. They suck.

"MD sucks because making UU is too hard!" "These cards that solve that problem are bad"

You seem to place a lot of weight on this notion that you've "tested" desire and proven beyond a shred of doubt that its 100% awful, while you've also indicated aversion to outside of the box thinking. In order for your "testing" to make me care, I'd like to see something more than "someone built a deck in ten minutes and it sucked".

>>48948490
>Stifle is still a relatively weak card against desire.
What world do you live in? do you think 4UU: cast a random card from your deck is good?
>and ANT always has mana for extra discard spells.
Yes, ANT usually will have a single extra mana after resolving a PiF or AN. Are you trolling?
>Not needing tutors to work is a downside?
MD decks would LOVE tutors, specifically Dark petition. Tutors are awkward to use for them because they break the one strength of the deck (that MD can't be countered normally) and they make MD's already problematic mana cost even higher. Because you are trying to leverage MD's uncounterable nature running LED is contradictory (otherwise you would just cantrip into it cracking LED in resp). It needs tutors to work, it just can't use them so it doesn't work.
>PiF does nothing without a tutor to go with it.
No.
> "These cards that solve that problem are bad"
I've tested both chrome mox, pentad prism and manamorphose before you suggested them anon, chrome mox and pentad prism are bad. They just don't sufficiently solve the problem. I'm sorry that things don't always work out the way you want them to.
>You seem to place a lot of weight on this notion that you've "tested" desire
Because I've seen problems with it that you think are merely ephemeral.
>while you've also indicated aversion to outside of the box thinking
I tried testing it in TES, ANT, high tide, with mizziks mastery, a UR variation with countermagic, A UB version built on dark petition, a UB version with infernal tutor and a UBR version with manamorphose and cantrips. I have tested every single idea people have given me.
>I'd like to see something more than "someone built a deck in ten minutes and it sucked".
I'd like to see something more than shitty decks and shitty arguments too, but it hasn't happened yet.

>>48948646
Against Desire as a deck.

A single mana, which it uses to cast rituals and another tutor. It often does not have extra mana or access to extra discard spells

MD doesn't need tutors to work at all. The reason ANT needs tutors is because having ten spells in hand for tendrils is not feasible, so it needs ways to get additional spells to cast. MD doesn't need tutors because all it needs is MD + Rituals.

"PIF doesn't need a tutor to go with it" Oh boy, I love going RIT RIT PETAL PIF RIT RIT pass the turn.

Yes, the rigorous testing that decks not legal in any format go through. Seriously, I do not care that you played 5 games with a shitty version of a deck. "These cards are bad. I know cause I know" . Im sure ANT was built in 5 minutes as well. If you want to build a good combo deck you need to run a lot of numbers and do a lot of testing. I do not believe that you spent days working on these decks. I do not care that you built terrible decks and played them. Im not going to waste my time trying to convince some retard on the internet that Minds Desire is a broken card, its clearly never getting through.

Mind's Desire is a card for 4UU that says "If you cast 5 or more spells this turn, you win the game". If you can't see why that's broken, you need to learn card evaluation

>>48948811
>MD doesn't need tutors to work at all. The reason ANT needs tutors is because having ten spells in hand for tendrils is not feasible, so it needs ways to get additional spells to cast. MD doesn't need tutors because all it needs is MD + Rituals.
Not that guy, I've never tried the card, but is 5 or 6 storm really a safe amount to effectively guarantee a win?
The way I see it, you basically need to reveal another Desire to guarantee a win, which means you have 3 hits in ~50 cards. If you have 6 looks, that's somewhere around 30% to hit another desire, unless my casual estimation is off. It won't be that uncommon to hit 2 lands, a lotus petal, a git probe, a ritual and a brainstorm etc.
The odds of actually winning from there are a bit higher than the 30% to hit desire, you can hit tendrils at any point after lethal storm, and I guess its possible that you draw into enough mana and another desire to just go off again, but, without having tested at all it doesn't really seem like the sure thing its being represented as.

>>48948811
>A single mana, which it uses to cast rituals and another tutor
It casts the rituals first THEN casts the discard spell. How dense are you? They can't stifle the rituals.
>MD doesn't need tutors because all it needs is MD + Rituals.
Please just try and play some version of the deck, it really doesn't. I can't convince you of this without you trying some version of it for yourself.
>"PIF doesn't need a tutor to go with it" Oh boy, I love going RIT RIT PETAL PIF RIT RIT pass the turn.
I've won several games by casting PiFs without a tutor either through cantrips or simply using a few discard spells. Like how you can just stop prematurely with AN and then win the next turn, something you wouldn't really think of just looking at the deck but inevitably happens when you play it like you claim you have.
>Seriously, I do not care that you played 5 games with a shitty version of a deck.
I literally listed 8 different versions.
>Mind's Desire is a card for 4UU that says "If you cast 5 or more spells this turn, you win the game". If you can't see why that's broken, you need to learn card evaluation
>"Show and tell is a card for 2U that says "if you have a bomb in your hand, you win the game" if you can't see why that's broken, you need to learn card evaluation"
Jesus, you really don't get the concept that it only wins with 5 spells if the deck is crippled by making desire good do you?
I've built other decks before, I've built other combo decks before. I built a version of modern ur storm years ago before I knew about the ur storm archetype in modern, the deck could consistently kill turn 4 and sometimes turn 3, like the normal version of the time; despite not being at all optimal it showed obvious promise. When I learned about ur storm I saw that promise come to fruition. When I build several mind's desire decks and they shows fucking no progress at all saying 'b-but they're suboptimal' becomes a strained excuse after a while.

>>48948914
>>48949012
You two are doing a great job of bumping the thread, keep it up because I know we'll eventually get more traffic

>>48924914
A guy in my community organized proxy tournaments with entry fees and put up Fetches and other staples as prices. It made people enter the format, and helped them flesh out their decks.

I like having my opponents suffer. Is there anything close to mono black discard/sacrifice decks in legacy that makes your opponent wish they weren't playing against you?

>>48949886
Mono black pox fits as a sacrifice/discard deck, but imo it's one of the most fun decks to play against in all of magic.
Eldrazi is never fun to play against if you really just want to be masochistic, really any stompy deck with chalice will frustrate people, goblin stompy also gets blood moon.

What's an old ass Legacy deck that I can play? Like pre 2000 era. Right now I just got Kavu Cure.dec

Maybe Aluren?

>>48949955
I honestly have no clue, that seems real hard. You aren't working with a whole lot of cards there

>>48949907
I searched around and found this deck:
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=13004
It seemed cancerous so I'll test it on Xmage

>>48950256
If you want a really cancerous deck play mOno red sneak n breach. You get to be a brainless combo deck and still play 4 chalice and at least 4 moon effects.

>>48949955
A really bad version of solidarity could "work".
What reason do you have for wanting a pre 2000 deck?

>>48949955
That's even before Onslaught, so no fetches even. I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish here.

>>48903102
my dad played when it came and out throughout the 90s, and then I started playing around 1999.

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>>48948914
You just need to flip over 2 Searing Winds and they're dead.

>>48949955
10-land stompy
I have an old version from like 03 but it's still not that good

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>>48949955
Ignore the Consults, we can replace with something else.

Also I hope you like scooping to burn.

>>48953377
>replace the consults
NONSENSE IT'S PERFECT

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>>48953473
banned in Legacy though :s

>>48953377
looks sweet, but needs more Recurring Nightmare+Mindslicer action

>>48953377
Patrician taste in dark rits.

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>>48953377
>>48953893
i prefer mm, but tempest is a close second.

hymn is patrician taste too.

>mfw we'll never see cool art like this again

>>48954062
Patrician Hymn is having one of each art in your deck.

But I'm a huge Rebecca Guayfag so I agree on MM rits.

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>>48954252
>having mixed-art non-lands in the deck

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>>48954358
Only for Hymns, and only if you're based.
It's the way Fallen Empires would have wanted it.

>>48954394
From gaming point of view, using mixed art puts you at a disadvantage. A very slight one, but still.

>>48953540
I was running a list similar to this except I had Giant Growths in and took out the Ridgebacks for Mtenda Lions and the River Boas for Ghazban's
Really fun list though, wish it was better

>>48954420
It's a disadvantage that can be mitigated or invalidated by not casting the dog hymn when you're opponent has only seen the guys at the table hymn. As long as you are aware of what info your opponent knows, it really dosent matter. And you should be aware of it anyway since it let's you make better play choices.

Source: me, my decks are ugly as fuck.

>>48955302
My fucking phone putting apostrophes and shit where they Dont belong.

>>48955319
And left them out of where they were needed, apparently.

>>48955337
Goddammit

>>48955302
No, there are ways where it is impossible to avoid providing extra information.

Scenario:
>you have Hymn-1 in your opening hand on the draw
>opponent duress you and take something else
>you draw Hymn-2
>opponent uses his hymn on you, randomly hitting something + Hymn-2

Now you opponent knows you drew a second Hymn and that you have an extra Hymn on hand, something he would not know if you used indistinguishable Hymns.

>>48955409
And then you beat him anyways because you are a baller who plays with all of the Fallen Empire Hymn art.

>>48955409
That's why "mitigated or invalidated", meaning that it is not always possible to avoid giving away information, but that frequently you can reduce that info to 0 or very near it. Plus if your opponent is playing a bad pox deck, which they seem to be in this carefully constructed scenario, you'll probably win.

>>48956638
Duressing each other in the smallpox mirror is a powerful play.

>>48956681
Ive never played the mirror. I don't play pox that much anymore. My pox deck is pretty uniform though. Except for the hymns. Cause I'm a baller.

>>48957265
Is pox fun? I've been thinking of proxing it up

>>48958774
I've found pox to be outmoded by the glut of cantrips and high value spells floating about the format. You'll blow your hand and thoroughly choke a bitch in the first turns of the game before getting out top-decked the majority of the time.

>>48959045
Hmmm, this is interesting. My friend has a B/R pox like deck and it's essentially a modern deck save for 4 cards. He always makes sure I have at least 4 cards in hand am he never runs out of gas becuase of waste not. His deck made me want to try out a legacy pox deck but I guess it'd probably differ a lot becuase of the format

>>48948914
You need to flip a Tendrils or a Desire, so 7/50. Each flip is about 20%, so 5 is the minimum. If you miss, you can still hit cantrips to refuel.

>>48949012
Mana in ANT is usually tight. A lot of times you don't have the additional mana. MD can run force or fluster, the point is pretty moot

Yes, you technically can win without a tutor. A vast majority of the time you won't.

Modern storm is pretty easy to build: play the only legal tutors that are on color with all the legal storm enablers. Grest job.

MD requires more to make work, and if you do the payoff is way higher. I'm not sure how a deck like that is "crippled" by playing a pile of the best spells ever printed, and being able to ignore all traditional, but you appear unable to comprehend why a storm enabler that's also a finisher and combos with itself is even potentially broken.

>>48959260
>play the only legal tutors that are on color with all the legal storm enablers
?
>You need to flip a Tendrils or a Desire, so 7/50
?
>MD can run force or fluster, the point is pretty moot
?
>and if you do the payoff is way higher
?
>but you appear unable to comprehend why a storm enabler that's also a finisher and combos with itself is even potentially broken
?
I'm done, everyone else can just realize how fucking retarded you are. If you want to know why you are wrong, try building the deck for yourself. I've got a feeling you have your head too far up your ass to try and do that but whatever, at this point it's clear you either are just a troll or you can't be reasoned with anyway.

>>48950256
I've played against this on cockatrice, I thought I was being trolled when my opponent played t1 peat bog. The ophimancer tech is cute but...stax just really isn't a good deck anymore

On an unrelated note, will /tg/ finish their first legacy tourney? It would be cool to do a weekly/bi-weekly thing but that is unlikely to happen if we don't even finish the first one

Okay guy Esper miracles guy here I'm quite drunk and I need done to know what I dhulould by gtomc the unlike stores places for cards. I'm going to spend at least 400 dollars. Tonight and I'd rather it be cards then dakimakuras

>>48960144
What I should buy from the card places* my 9honr is trying to auto corr3ct as much a spossiblr but it'd trying get very hsrd

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>>48960144
Do you even remember whos turn it is?

>>48960407
FUCK is it my time?

I DON'T NEED TO lock the door to poop I'm durmk


Holy fuck just rheese capthas are hard as fuck when drunk

>>48950506
>>48950587
>>48950224
>>48950587

>Why would you do this?

Honestly it's just for shits and giggles. It doesn't necessarily have to only contain cards pre 2000, just that the deck's origins have to be ancient as hell. I hate to say this but at 32 I am the oldest player in the store(outside of the owner) so I wanna show up with an old ass deck that people have probably forgotten about. My store is literally all just random tiered decks like Delver variants, Shardless, Show n Tell(Sneak and Omni variants), GW Maverick and one guy running Lands. Oddly enough nobody is running pure combo decks like Storm.

>>48961443
Dream halls is funny but not that old
the gate maybe? cephalid breakfast?

>>48961653

>Cephalid Breakfast

Now there's a classic. Gate looks interesting too.

>>48961855
some kind of team italia works too if you want to go older, running classic discard like cabal and hymn and stuff like swords/bolt/vindicate for that oldschool flavor and then pick your finishers

hey ddft guy, when will you be around to play our round 2 match?

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>>48959260
>Each flip is about 20%, so 5 is the minimum.
That's kind of not at all how statistics works

7 successes in a population of 50 cards with a sample size of 5 puts you at a little over 50% to win

>>48962888
Yeah sorry I've been meaning to reach out. Been mad busy doing things like getting needles stuck in my ass. I'll be around tommorrow evening, probably starting around 5

>>48960144
>>48960161
>>48960407
<3.

>>48959077
Here's the thing about pox. It'll likely never be a tier 1 deck because the blue card drawing spells are so good. But! It's a good format entry point if the deck appeals to you. You can build a mono black pox deck for really cheap, especially relative to the rest of the format. It will win you matches especially against fair decks. Then you can get lilianas and beef it up, then get some duals and wastes and build holy pox or loam pox. There are several pox variants. If you're into that play style, the deck will keep you busy for a long time.

Who vintage here?
Thinking of buying all the inexpensive pieces and just getting professional looking proxies for the moxen, power and library. Maybe a few expensive real cards. Then get a few friends to proxy up their decks and play vintage on Friday

>>48964206

I play exactly two decks in Vintage.

Grixis Thieves and "creatures that attack for 2.dec" aka hatebears. Well sometimes they attack for 3.

>>48964206
Vintage is pretty amazing. I have had fun with it in the past but there isn't really a deck I want to play. It's a largely unexplored format and I'm not sure it will ever be explored.

>>48964206
Vintage is dope
Wish I could afford 4 Bazaars but it's a cool format, even though it's got moxes it still feels like the way the game was meant to be played