/asoiaf/ General

Bets on what Euron does to Oldtown? Does he become a god?

>>48612559
I think the Dothraki were largely intented to die in huge numbers while causing lots of infrastructure problems that each Kingdom would have to face along as King's Landing would get cut off, in addition to loyalist lords (such as the Crackclaw Point Houses and ALL of Dorne) basically made the situation even harder for them.
I think the Dothraki were meant to mostly die in huge numbers but be a huge pain on the ass, then suddenly a pair of Targaryens come out of fucking nowhere to save everyone from the incompetent Baratheons and Lannisters would couldn't protect their own people.

It's a plan that is both callous and unecessarult duplicitous and complex, which therefore means of kinda fits Varys perfectly.

>>48612678

Archwizard Hightower would strike him down.

>>48612678
No, but he'll kill a lot of people, further eroding and distracting the Reach and Tyrells (who are more or less the least hard hit by the war in their own territory) which makes everything shittier for everyone and makes it harder for the Tyrells to mobilize and stop the Golden Company and Connington with their overwhelming numbers.

>>48612717
What was the plan after Viserys died? Can't claim to bea saviour when you're married to the Dothraki warlord.

>>48612722
>Euron: "Haha! My ships will ruin your city? What defense to you have against that?!"
>Archwizard: "I'm the only 20th level Wizard in the entire planet. Everyone made fun of me. Now magic is back and I have a SHITLOAD of prepared Meteor Swarm scrolls and spells to ruin your fucking shit."

>>48612808
Daenerys was never intended to be the savior, Aegon was.

Unless, of course, Varys is just a faceless man/merman trying to kill as many people as possible.

>>48612846
"The Targaryans shall save you from the Targaryans!"

I'm starting to believe the Merman theory.

>>48612837
You really think Euron isn't also a high level wizard? He was Bloodravens last protege after all. He's gonna summon a kraken or some kind of blood tidal wave to destroy Oldtown. He has no where near the ships needed to take it.

>>48612808

After Viserys died Dany just kind of went along with whatever Drogo did. He planned to attack Westeros eventually because of the attempted assassination on Dany.

It wasnt until Drogo died and she lost her child she actually got some ambition

>>48612808
Viserys wan't an important part of it anyway, it was all about Egg 2.0 and Dany, hence Illyrio basically placating Vyseris constantly and letting him in on almost nothing at all of it.

But their plan was basically too convolutioned and fell apart, not the least of which because Dany grew a spine and hatched some dragons.
Dany's been ruining EVERYONE'S long-held plans just by doing that.

Her messianic delusions might be false, but she IS correct in that she's changing the world dramatically; she just is mostly unaware of how she's doing it and she's not really directing the change at all.

>>48612678
That's what he's planning, but I think it's far too early for him to become that powerful

>>48612938
He's been sailing around the darkest most mystical corners of the world for his entire life friend.

Narratively, late in the penultimate act is definitely when you want to start pulling out all the most extreme shit.

>>48612979
Well yeah, but if he gods out at the start of the book every character will have him hanging over them and will undoubtetly drag down the plot

>>48612979
>He's been sailing around the darkest most mystical corners of the world for his entire life friend.
Didn't he only get exiled 3 years before AGOT begins?

>>48613014

That's a considerable chunk of time to go globe-trotting

>>48613014
Even earlier, only one year, according to the wiki
>>48613069
The guy claimed that he's been sailing " around the darkest most mystical corners of the world for his entire life" when it's literally just 2 years

>>48613010
Naw. He won't god out the first time he does super mega-black Magic. But he might be at some point. Still, he's gonna super mega-black Magic the shit out of Oldtown now.

>>48613110
Long enough for men from Ib to Assai to prey when they see his sails. Realistically, one year is barely enough time to get from Ib to Assai. So what then?

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>>48612979
>>48612889
>>48612837

>Euron has been sailing all over the world picking up mystical secrets (and artifacts) from the ruins of Valyria, Yi Ti, Asshai and more
>Hightower has spent decades locked in at the top of his literal wizard tower built ontop of a labyrinth from a pre-human civilization pouring over every piece of material he can find on the arcane

Fuck, if those two fight it's going to tear a hole open into the Warp.

>>48613134
GRRM has admitted to being shit with numbers, most likely that

>>48613138
Hasn't he only spent the last few weeks up there?

>>48613227
nah he's spent a decade locked up inside the Hightower. there's a reason but i can't remember why

>>48613227

I exaggerated, but according to the wiki he's been up there at least a decade.

Although actually locking himself in with his daughter was more recent and in response to the Ironborn attacks.

>>48613278
Ah. Alright. I remember the locking himself up there being recent, but forgot that he's spent a good deal of time alone up there before. The high towers are an outrageously important house with very little fleshing out.

>>48612889
Betcha twenty bucks he doesn't.
Oh he's got magic of SOME kind, that's for sure, but he's crazy as fuck and doesn't really know what he's doing with it.

Also, I'm starting to doubt that he ever actually went to Valyria himself.
Literally the ONLY thing that seems to shake is otherwise unflappable craziness is mentioning that, and he sort of acts like someone who knows he's lying and gets crazy angry when people call him out on it.

>>48613304
i could see the Hightowers and the Velaryons making their way back into relevance again after the wars are all done and the former Great Houses are weakened

>>48613327
He has the Valyrian steel armor. He also hasn't verifiably lied through the entire story.

>>48613364
Lied about Balon's death

>>48613423
But anon, No One pushed Balon off the bridge.

>>48613138
Honestly it was a joke on my part.
I think Euron will do the same thing the Ironborn have done since second book; cause a lot of damage collaterally with raiding and violence, but ultimately accomplish very little in the long run.

They'll just do the damage more efficiently with Euron because he seems to be better at giving them a real target then Balon's ridiculous whole "just raid everywhere I guess" strategy.

>>48613480
>man who's literally sending shockwaves through space and time
>accomplish very little
The bleeding star bespoke the end

>>48613480
Ultimately I think Euron and the Greyjoys as a whole have shown up far too late in the story to actually be narratively important. At least compared to characters like Jon, Daenerys, Cersei, and the like.

>>48612553

>Second Greyjoy Rebellion
>Not Greyjoy Rebellion 2: The Squidenning Edition

>>48613586
Not "Grejoy Rebellion 2: Even stupider this time"

>>48613506
Some people love the Ironborn so much they want them to succeed even if it makes no sense and runs contrary to all logic.
These people have been dissappointed since the second book and will continue to be disappointed.
>>48613533
They also kind of were aimless initially.
The Ironborn are FANTASTIC at causing damage to things, but seemingly their very culture rails against taking steps that would consolidate their kingdoms. The one Ironborn lord who WAS good at that, Harren the Black, was actually hated by his own people for being such a tyrant despite giving them greater successes that they've ever had as a culture, though the World book also claims that he might have been religiously tolerant which would piss a lot of them off.

It seems a LOT of Iroborn history is "progressive ruler shows up and then the Drowned Priests start acting shitty and help a more conservative ruler who raids like crazy and then gets his shit packed in is kinda the recurring cycle they go through.

>>48613613

>Not Greyjoy Rebellion 2: Drowned God Boogaloo

>>48613637
Ultimately, as much as I agree that they won't have much place in the world by the end of the story, Euron has already sent shockwaves through the psychosphere of the setting. Much the same as the Red Wedding did.

>>48613637

Ironfag here.

I have no problems with the Ironborn losing all the time. What appeals to me is their authentic dedication to what honestly is a fun (as in fun to read about, fun to talk about, fun to laugh about) culture. They're scrappy underdogs going up against guys who'll always beat them, and who would have a much better time if they just compromised their ideals.

Which they won't. And that kind of stubbornness is appealing even if laughably stupid.

>>48613683
Honestly, in some ways the Ironborn are more like the Mongols then the Dothraki.
They're a highly skilled warrior culture of idiot savants at mobile fighting (sailing rather then horseback) who previously under a visionary ruler established large kingdoms that fell apart into a smaller areas because while they love conquering they aren't really very good at the work of ruling it afterward and don't WANT to get better at it either.

>>48613683
Ditto. It's like reading about orcs, complete with the stupidity.
Asha's just the one orc who recognizes how stupid everyone else is being.

>>48612553
>>48613586
>>48613638

Technically this is like the forth Greyjoy Rebellion. The Lord Greyjoy at the time of the Dance of Dragons took advantage of the chaos from that conflict to start shit only to get slaughtered as soon as the kingdom was reunited, and another Greyjoy went reave-happy at some point between that the DoD and Balon's first rebellion and got his shit kicked in as well.

>>48613797

Then you have characters like Victarion who's so far down the kraken hole it's like reading about a fucking alien. From his cursing monkeys as demonic creatures to his conclusion he should worship R'hllor because double the gods means double the power.

These guys are fucking great.

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Is it bad that I REALLY want a Koei-made Dynasty Warriors-style game using ASoIaF characters?
Like, complete with the shitty English voice acting and massively incorrect plotline and turning every character into an overblown animeized version of themselves and just butchering the shit out of the entire plot?

I just think it'd be fucking hilarious to play and a lot of the characters in the novels would fit really well into the Dynasty Warriors character mold.

>>48612808
I think Young Griff was meant to do shit. I doubt anyone besides Viserys & Dany saw Viserys as anything but a little shit.

>>48613876
>"Demonic creatures!"
>"Treacherous as a woman!"

God he's such a fucking idiot.
I actually really respect Gurm for managing to so convincingly write a character who's so stupid that it doesn't even occur to him how stupid he is.

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>>48613935

Hell, I still want my aSoIaF fightin' game.

>>48613935

I would have no problems playing as Eddard Ice-in-hand button-mashing my way through Targaryens on the Trident

>>48613976
>aSoIaF fighting game
I pick Strong Belwas.

>>48614019

If he doesn't shit on defeated enemies they shouldn't even put him in, though.

>>48614039
>implying that won't be his victory animation
BlazBlue had Terumi kick the shit out of some of his opponents if he won.

>>48613980
It fits RIDICULOUSLY well.

>North
>Jon is Brooding Pretty Boy Hero, like Edward the Black Prince in Bladestorm
>Robb is Sun Ce
>Arya is Sun Shang Xiang
>Ned is Sun Jiang; important at the beginning, dies early on.
>Caitlyn is....I dunno, someone. She probably cries all over everything as her weapons.
>Greatjon is Zhou Tai/Taishi Ce

>Lannisters
>Joffery is "leader"
>Tywin is real leader, a Cao Cao-type character.
>Cersei is Zhenji; hot sexy seductress.
>Jaime is Cao Pe, looses literally ALL character subtly to just be Edgelord Swordmaster Douche.
>The Hound is Xiahou Dun

>Tyrells led by Renly
>Loras is Flaming Gay, like Zhang He level
>Brienne is taller then the other female characters, but insanely hot. No explanation
>Oleanna Tyrell shoots Laser Thorns.

>"Neutral" Faction
>Varys shooter Spiderwebs and shit. Kinda Zuo Ci-ish, mysterious appearing and disappearing.
>Petyr Baelish literally throws coins at people and talks about CHAOS a lot like Kotaro Fuma in Samurai Warriors.
>Khal Drogo is that one annoying third faction guy who shows up every other mission and ruins everything.
>Dany is Diao Chan

Gregor Clegane is Lu Bu.

>>48614086
>ASTRAL FINIIIISH!
>Belwas drops trow and shits on your corpse.

>>48614134
More Planetos-turned Dynasty Warriors knockoffs.

>Barristan Selmy is Huang Zhong, ancient as fuck looking but still an awesome character who never actually gets killed. Bonus points if he even says "THERE'S STILL LIFE IN ME YET!" when he does is Musou.
>Oberyn Martell is a character who switches factions a lot during his storyline. The Dorne faction is almost entirely his family.
>Tyrion first is with the Lannisters, then is with the King's Landing faction, then joins Dany's faction. His weapon is, of course, a crossbow. Every time he gets done using a Musou attack he takes a drink from a bottle of wine and breaks it on the ground.

>>48613772
The Dothraki are more Great Plains Indians, just with horses instead of buffalo. High and mighty assholes who are a holy terror to the locals, smaller civilizations, and passing travelers. But more of a pain in the side than an actual threat to larger more stable groups.

>>48613976
Can you imagine the butthurt when Syrio isn't in it?

>>48614350
I'd be more butthurt if they exclude Ser Arthur Dayne or Barristan Selmy.

>>48614407

>They include Dayne
>but he dual wields

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>>48614523

>>48613772
Mongols held their conquests for a while tho. Mostly because they were not idiots, unlike the iron fags.

>>48613935
I love how little Cao cao's fucking design has changed over the entire series

>>48613327
>>48613423
>>48613364

The only verified lie we have from him doesn't show him getting mad about it, he just carelessly denies it, knowing that everybody knows he did it but they won't do anything about it

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>>48614523
>Dayne
>Dual wielding

no seriously WHY IS THIS A THING?

>>48615013

D&D thought it'd look cool.

>>48614557
They never managed to hold what they had as an entire army or nation though, partially because they didn't really want to; the Mongol Horde broke up into the Yuan Dynasty, the Golden Horde, the Chagatai Khanate and the Illkhanate.

>>48615013
Because HBO is literally for Plebs, the lowest common denominator, the mouth-breathers, the rubes, the common man, the peasantry, the proletarian, the working man.

The Lowest Common Denominator.

>>48615385

As my friend once so eloquently put it: "It's HBO! It's for people who don't read!"

>>48615013
Not enough wanking to his sword in the series so they needed a shorthand for him being awesome.

Would have been much cooler if he did it all with one blade and no shield.

>>48615418
Fairly accurate these days.

>>48615436
They also either have the single most horseshit fight coregrapher on TV or D&D literally decide to never listen to him even a little, so any attempts at "cool" sword fighting would just look fucking dumb as hell.

Even one of my fairly moronic and non-reading friends thought the Jon vs FOOKING LEGEND fight looked like two retards slapping their dicks around when all one had to do was use his longer goddamn sword.

>>48615436

Or even better if they'd given him the proper two-handed space sword he actually used.

>>48615508
They didn't give it enough development for viewers to be all like "Holy shit, that's motherfucking Dawn! Dudes gonna fuck shit up!"

Really they should have given Valyrian Steel a visual cue, like a blue sheen or something, to help mark the swords out from normal blades.

>>48615691

Well I mean, I don't think it would have mattered. It really is one of those things that only people who read the books would really appreciate.

Like, Maisie Williams opted to learn left-handed sword-fighting because she knew bookfags would sperg over right-handed Arya.

>>48615709
Bull, it's because left-handed water dancing>right-handed water dancing.

Source: I do both.
My form is an absolute mess right-handed, but I just can't win lefty.

Is it just me or are these threads rather active of late?

>>48615741
I find left easier for attacking and right easier for defending, it's kind of weird

I kind of want to see what Randall Flagg would do in ASOIAF, but honestly, I'm pretty sure he'd look around and go "fuck it".

>>48616341
>"You know what? You guys don't need a Satan analogy. You're shitting things up enough by yourselves."

>>48613533
>>48613637
You could say the same of Ramsey Bolton and Roose Bolton only really turning evil at the end of a Clash of Kings. Due to a theory on here, I think the books have a three arc structure;

>Game of Thrones, Storm of Swords, a Clash of Kings
The titles refer to materialistic objects and the covers focus on items to be fought over; thrones, crowns and swords. Mostly politics based. Main badguy was Tywein for these books. He got axed by Tyrion. Both were excellent at politics and both were worthy foils and opposites to each other.

>A Feast of Crows, A Dance of Dragons
Both of these refer to extremely bloody, violent events. These books talk about human good and evil. The broken men speech. Lots of references to the horrors and costs of war. The main antagonists for this part (or those who tended to dominate that role) were the Boltons and Cersei. All three are absolute evil cunts who are feeding off the corpse of Westeros and use their power to enable their desires. For Ramsay Snow and Roose Bolton, Jon Snow is the perfect foil and spends the whole book trying to do humanitarian shit, fulfill his duty and obligations and protect the realm. Parts of what were planned for these two books were put into TWoW so we'll likely see this plot line wrapped up real fucking quick.

>The Winds of Winter, A Dream of Spring
These refer to the seasons and may have a spiritual bent, what with the return of magic, arrival of the Others, the usage of dragons and the summoning of Krakens. So far, Dany hasn't really affected Westeros much so when she comes in, she's going to need a fitting antagonist. Another person who uses and abuses magic, is the focus of prophecy and is shown to be as unnaturally evil, greedy and selfish as she is shown to be unnaturally good, charitable and selfless. Euron fills all of these goals quite well and, right now, he seems about as likely to conquer Westeros as Dany does with all the shit they are dealing with.

Wish I had the image.

You know, I'm not positive but I think I've figured out the seasons thing, at least for Westeros anyway, which so far seems most affected by changing seasons of only because Essos is so much farther south comparatively.

>>48615013
>>48614523
>implying this wasn't actually the best way to show his skill
>implying the message wasn't "he's such a great fighter he can handicap himself by dual wielding and still kill motherfuckers left and right"
>implying it wasn't a show of arrogance on his part, trying to mock the lesser known Stark boy

>>48616729

>implying Daenarys isn't the antagonist.

A couple threads ago one anon rather brilliantly analysed how Dany very well could be a Sauron-style Dark Lord in the making.

>>48617388
Given what we know about Dayne a "display of arrogance" sounds out of character

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Is there a single more Neutral Good character than Ser Garlan Tyrell currently alive in the books?
The guy is the broest of bros.

>>48616237
They have been, and I'm enjoying it. My major gripe was that a week ago, people were posting on here like once an hour, but now people are posting every few minutes. I hope it sticks like this, I really don't want to go back to /tv/ to discuss the cancerous show

>>48616729
I mean this is a neat theory but I don't really buy it that much. It seems to rely too heavily on what GRRM may have described the original outline of being like, rather than what the series actually grew to be. It was supposed to be a three part arc, but really the series developed into a long chaotic history book, with plotlines entering and leaving without any clear structure, no central focus besides the North, Kings Landing, the Riverlands, the Wall and Daenerys always getting special attention, and also due to "three main villains and three main heroes" doesn't really sound like something GRRM is writing (at least now, anyway. He's always saying how all of his characters have big parts to play and how this is a sprawling cast. Maybe it was different in the outline)

I do like some things the theory proposes- such as politics having a more central role in the first few books, the "feast for crows" having important in the next few to show the aftermath of war, and that the last few are about magic returning, darkness and death. But I don't think it was structured completely this way, since the first few books do use a decent bit of magic (Wights, Melisandre, House of the Undying, Bran's dreams), and the next few books also use a lot of political story (Jon, Daenerys, Cersei and Stannis more than anyone else)

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I want to stat up my favorite House for a campaign. Do you think it's feasible to (a) create it using the standard system, adjusting things to suit canon or (b) ignore the rules and just build it to suit what I'm after?

Do you guys ever talk about the tabletop too? I just started a campaign and was curious about character creation/ good fundamentals. My guy is a dual wielder who uses a braavosi blade

>>48617541
>>48617675
The books have very much followed a three act structure and Martin's always tried to keep it that way. It's grown certainly but you can still see that the narrative has a very clear sequence. When Joffery and Tywein both die, that results in a massive power shift and the end of act one; after that fact, the entire narrative has changed and all of the characters that aren't dead have undergone at least some kind of shift in views.

Seeing as how AFfC and ADoD had to bleed into WoW we see this change has only mostly occurred but once Stannis has beaten Roose and Ramsay, we will again see a complete change in situation for most of the characters and the story reaching its climatic point.

I mean, once Roose and Ramsay are dead, who becomes the main antagonist? Aegon? Dany, who is clearly a protag? Cersei, who's lost nearly all her power? The High Sparrow, who has no real capability of threatening Stannis' armies or even the Tyrells armies? The Tyrells? The Others, who won't fully appear until the last book?

Also, you do make a fair point about how there has been a bleeding through of effects but the Wights, Melisandre, House of the Undying and Bran's dreams have all really only hinted at things to come. We don't start getting POV views of magic itself until the later parts of those and A Dance of Dragons. And while politics does still play an important role in the book, it lacks master-strokes like Tyrion's revealing of the spy or the Red Wedding; instead, it looks at the application of power for positive and negative ends.

GRRM has always had a concrete vision of what he wanted and has allowed bloat to obscure that; but that's only because he wanted to explore the full passage of time rather than rely on timeskips (like how we've been forced to deal with Bran for ages even though the payoff has only begun now.)

GRRM has always looked at ASoIaF as a fairy tale, a fantasy story. This implies he always had a vision for how things would turn out.

>>48617876
>GRRM has always looked at ASoIaF as a fairy tale, a fantasy story.
Could I have a source for this? It sounds interesting. From all I've heard in interviews etc, ASOIAF is more the love child between High Fantasy and Historical Fiction.

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>>48614134
>>48614222

>>48617781
>Do you think it's feasible to (a) create it using the standard system
Why not, though the more older the House get the more you'll have to fluff it with realistic details.

>ignore the rules and just build it to suit what I'm after?
Just remember to give them flaws so they don't feel game breaking OP

>>48617959
I can't explain why, but somehow Koei has figured out how to apply the Dynasty Warriors formulae to EVERYTHING.
ASoIaF is just weirdly suited to it already.

>>48613797
Yeah well, you don't got a willy you don't get the silly.

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>>48613674
This, honesty. Throughout A Game of Thrones and A Clash of Kings, we REPEATEDLY got imagery of a banquet of corpses, a feast for the dead. We saw corpses of northmen, and a man with a wolf for a head sitting at the end of the table. This was all cosmic foreshadowing for one of the bloodiest events in the series so far, I imagine Walder Frey may have inadvertently activated some blood magic.

Now, we're beginning to see a LOT of cosmic foreshadowing again. This time, it involves a mass of swirling tentacles, a monster with a great black eye and ten long black legs, and already two mentions of a red sea of blood. This means Euron is no red herring.

What Euron does in the next book will legit be terrifying.

>>48618024

Asha still has her own problems, namely her unapologetically demanding sexual appetite

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>>48618301
>Tricks her brother into fondling her- while he's totally unaware but she's enjoying it
>"lol it's just a prank bro ;)"

>>48618021
>Keoi Berserk in development
Can't fucking wait.

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>>48618346

Really the Greyjoys are one of my favorite houses. Every single named member taking part in the narrative has at least one insane hangup.

>>48618088
Man, he's probably going to turn out to have been a student of Marwyn as well and the binding of the dragons will accelerate the return of magic. Shit will get weird, capital W.

>>48618393
Victarion's chapters are some of the most fun in the entire series. The Greyjoys, outside of Asha, are real entertaining to read about.

>>48618301
I keep hearing this, but in the books her appetite seems to pretty much revolve around that one guy and JUST him.
Like, she's into sex and enjoys it the way any other person does but she isn't exactly not picky; that Harlaw kid was described as pretty good looking and she literally displayed zero sexual interest in him at all, and seemed honestly to kind of look down on him.

Asha's primary problem is that she has a vagina and thus this behavior is kind of controversial amongst the Ironborn.
Also, that she's actually a rational human being amongst a culture of complete idiots.

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>>48618414

I feel like I'm one of the only people in these threads who genuinely enjoys Asha's character. Mainly because she's a warrior girl who's so authentic in who she is and what she likes. I dunno, for me she's a more interesting Brienne.

>>48618414
Asha's chapters I think are there to give the Ironborn some kind of eventual ending that doesn't involve the paragraph
>"And then the King/Queen, finally tired of their bullshit, scoured the Iron Islands clean of life with dragonfire. They all burned to a man, their women and children died, their entire culture having accomplished nothing in the last three centuries. Nobody mourned them, and nobody cared, and everyone forgot about the sad, pointless people eventually."

I mean, I'd like the Ironborn to have SOME kind of at least semi-decent ending.

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>>48618301
>Asha draped the furs across her bare shoulders and mounted him, drawing him so deep inside her that she could not tell who had the cock and who had the cunt.

>>48618428
It always astonishes me that despite all of Balon's flaws, his utter stupidity and his form of cultural supremacy that Quellon attempted to do away with, that Balon manages to prefer Asha as his heir. A woman, in the most patriarchal society in Westeros, by one of the most patriarchal men in this society. This is something Tywin Lannister wouldn't do, nor Hoster Tully, nor any other mainland Lord where their daughter is the eldest child.

>>48618445
I never had much love for the baseline Iron Men. They all seemed too hideously moronic while also being complete assholes for me to enjoy. Though I won't begrudge anyone their enjoyment of them for the exact same reasons.

So I liked Asha the most of them, but I can't really recall too much of my more specific feelings about her. Been forever since I read the books. Should probably find out when Winds of Winter is supposed to be coming out hah so I can figure out how much time I'll need to set aside to reread them for it.

I enjoy moralfag characters too much to like her over Brienne, though.

It's a shame the end of the story is going to all be about Starks and Targaryens, I'd much rather a story all about the Greyjoys, Baratheons and Lannisters

>>48618487
I think to some degree it was desperation on his part.
His other kids were dead (his fault), or hostages (his fault), and his conquest had no only failed utterly (his fault), he had actually dramatically weakened both House Greyjoy and the islands as whole (his fault) with nothing to show for it.

Basically his entire goddamn life was a series of miserable failures outside of his successful and highly insinuated murder of his father in the World book, and he needed proof that SOMETHING was going right somewhere.
Asha was smart, had solid judgement (better then he did anyway), was a woman, but was still fantastic raider with a strong mind for both politics and war.
She was not only the competent son he never had, but she was the competent son HE never was.

>>48618473
>when she says you're a few copper short for her iron price.

>>48618428

See >>48618473. It may just be that one guy, but boy does she like him a lot.

>>48618487
Considering his only alternative was Theon I can see why he favored her. Asha was much better at being an Ironborn than her brother.

>>48618487

>I enjoy moralfag characters too much

I generally prefer outlaw characters, or at the least characters who are more self-centered. The only moralfag characters I've really been able to enjoy are Eddard, Jon, and I guess Jaime. Or can we count Arya as one too?

>>48618445
I like Asha well enough as a character and her "Husband and suckeling babe"-speech was great back in ACOK. I just don't find her PoV chapters very interesting, and if there's something cool in them it's rarely because of her.

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>>48618533
>when she sees your longship

>>48618507
The Baratheons especially, since we know next to nothing about them.
Though what I can glean from the history is that historically they were fairly violent sorts of people who also were pretty good fighters and all seemingly a lot less nice then Robert was as a younger man.

>>48618473
It's such a waste to make her a dyke on the show.
Though I wouldn't mind if she got it on with Dany.

Assuming he doesn't die before finishing it, I really, really hope he does a prequel series. Conflicts between Asshai and Old Valyria, maybe.

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>>48618552
>Though I wouldn't mind if she got it on with Dany.
I fucking love the idea of her domming Dany

>>48618538
I liked her chapter in AFFC. It was cool finding out about the Harlaws and Botleys.

In ADWD, Asha suffers because she doesn't have much to do, since she's either an exile or a prisoner. However, she does work well as the Stannis PoV, similar to what Davos was in previous books. I liked seeing Stannis from her perspective, since before her we'd only really seen him from the view of a guy who idolises him.

Now that Theon and Asha are both the Stannis PoV, I've got a feeling one of them is going to die, the PoVs will just merge and be told by one character, or they'll split up and go to different plotlines.

Hopefully, it's the second option. I like Asha as a character but I prefer Theon as a PoV so I wouldn't mind if Asha's PoV became less used and she would just appear in Theon chapters.

>>48618537
>See >>48618473 #. It may just be that one guy, but boy does she like him a lot.

Hey, she found someone she really enjoys to have sex with. That's not really very uncommon.
Also, the phrasing there kinda suggests to me that she maybe just a little bit wishes she wasn't born a woman if only to make her life simpler. Seriously, everything would be working out pretty fine for the Ironborn if she was a man. Other then that she's got a pretty good mental attitude about her culture's gender issues.
>>48618561
He said if he WAS going to write a prequel it would just be one book about the week long tourney at Harrenhall who's events come up over and over again in the series and basically apparently sparked off everything that happened afterwords.
Apparently so much happened in those seven days that he cannot explain within the limited POV context of the main series that he can turn it into a novel.

>>48618614
Oh, well, then I hope the fat fuck chokes on a dick and dies early so everyone else can suffer too.

>>48618624
I'm not sure what you were expecting.
A guy who clearly prefers to write in a vaguely pseudohistorical medieval setting would somehow make the suddenly switch to Antiquity despite a clear disinclination to do so in his part?

>>48618614

> it would just be one book

Didn't ASoIaF itself start out as a trilogy?

>>48618614
>Also, the phrasing there kinda suggests to me that she maybe just a little bit wishes she wasn't born a woman if only to make her life simpler.
Maybe, but it could just be a case of a little penis envy. Lots of girls say they wish they had a dick cause it looks cool to have.
Asha doesn't really seem resentful about being a girl at all, she's very boisterous about being a warrior with tits, and is especially chirpy about the Kingsmoot being her Queensmoot

>>48618647
Yeah, pretty much. A man can hope. I'd always just assumed that old Valyria and the like were almost equivalent in technology and culture to the present era, given how easily technology is lost and what we've seen so far.

>>48618649
Like I said, the gender itself thing seems pretty okay for her.
Arguably she is one of the most mentally functional and healthy people in the entire POV cast honestly because she has no illusions about who she is or anything or anyone else in her life and only dislikes loosing, which is something common to everyone.

Given how fucked up her culture is it's honestly kinda remarkable she's so sane.

>>48618648
The books were originally planned as a trilogy, with the first book ending with the Red Wedding.
You can find GRRM's initial notes to his editor about ASoIaF online. It's quite interesting to see how different certain plotlines turned out.

>>48618664
A good point Preston Jacobs raises is how fucking advanced historical civilisations were.
The Wall, Storm's End, Harrenhal, Pyke, Casterly Rock, The Eyrie, Sunspear, The Hightower, even Winterfell, are all marvels of structures, such architectural feats could not be accomplished during the time setting when the books are set. It's almost like Westerosi advanced building has regressed.

>>48618664
I actually never made any assumptions about Valyria myself if only because we have next to no information about them.
The worldbook lightens that somewhat, but not on what they were actually LIKE, you know? Just the state of their empire.

They kinda remind me superficially of Moorcock's Melniboneans, especially in how they are clearly human beings but frequently words like "inhuman" we're used to describe their appearance and beauty and how they were not precisely the same sort of human the others in the Moorcock novels were.

>>48618715
Eh. We know they had a developed noble class, with slaves, civil servants (and enough attendant bureaucracy to support them). They could build in fairly hostile locations and create enormous stone structures. Their advancements on the mystic end, while pretty much obscured, suggest they had a magocrat class as well, so scholars weren't uncommon. It always came off as a mix of various eras of Greece and Rome, but with dragons and an extra helping of murder.

>>48618677
I'd argue a big reason is parenting. Despite Ironborn culture being fucked up, it seems that Balon raised Asha well (or Alannys did). Being loved and favoured by both parents probably resulted in Asha having a very happy adolescence, especially since she got to enjoy the attention of being the only child at home.

Compare to Tyrion, Theon, Cersei, Dany and Jon who have very uneasy relationships with their parents or guardians, and as a result get fucked psychologically because of it.

>>48618694
That's true, but from a fantasy standpoint all but the Wall is flatly in defiance of basic physics and logic.
The others suffer from basic fantasy castles being unrealistic, which is not uncommon in the genre and not the first such thing in the series; the logistics of Westerosi armies are flatly impossible, the complications of keeping people fed over winters that last years, and the several mentions of knights engaging other knights in plate while still carrying shields and using swords commonly is pretty unrealistic too, as is the ridiculous technological disparity between the various nations atimes.

>>48618694
I like the theory about the Maesters intentionally holding technology back and misrepresenting certain parts of history to further whatever their agenda is.

>>48618744
The importance of not being a raging asshole and properly raising your kids comes up again and again as a subtle theme of the novels.
All the Great Houses coming from supportive families are extremely mentally healthy (if frequently unlucky) people) compared to many characters.

>>48618566
the main issue there is that they're both doms, they'd either have to agree to take turns, end up wrestling, or bring in a third person as sub

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Do you think GRRM will ever confirm that Theon lost his kraken in the books too?

I know it's implied, but I'm still hoping it's okay and didn't get the snip-snip like in the show. Renly&Loras being lovers was actually confirmed by Martin in like 2003 or something, so it would make sense to confirm this implication too. Apparently all he's said on the issue of Theon's manhood is "keep reading" and "Reek, Reek, it rhymes with peak".

>>48618894

I remember Theon explicitly referred to Ramsay taking away "that other part".

>>48618445
Asha is my second favorite POV, behind Jaime. She's hilarious, shes a "warrior woman" but feminine in her own way and shes the most reasonable Greyjoy.

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>>48618884
>they're both doms
Dany is very much a sub. Her form of sexuality is by pleasing Drogo and Daario in every way she can.

Which makes me think- is Daario literally the luckiest sellsword in history? Every lowborn mercenary dreams of one day seducing and fucking a Queen- Daario actually got to do this.

>>48618938
>Daario actually got to do this.
Well yeah but now he's been kicked to the curb (in the show anyway)

>>48618938
It depends on if he dies horribly or not, and if she kills him because he does something monumentally stupid like stabbing her in the back.
Not to say that he's incapable of successfully stabbing her in the back, just that Dany seems the type who's stop at pretty much nothing to at LEAST horribly kill the person who pulled it off before she died, as she definitely shares a serious temper with her brother.

Speaking of; I would not want to be that guy she was marrying once she gets back to Mereen because even if she does take the hint and leave afterwords pretty much all the only fates I see in store for him are being eaten alive slowly by a dragon or being burned alive slowly by a dragon.

>>48618953
He's not in the best situation in the books, either. He's a hostage of Yunkai, who have just started catapulting corpses over the city walls.

>>48618953
>>48618997
I thought he actually got killed in the books, his head fired back into the city with a catapult and everything.

Guess I got the names mixed up.

>>48618938

And he achieved it by dressing in the most flamboyantly gay fashion possible.

>>48618938
Daario is Euron.

>>48618926
Could be his smile.

I know the implications are large but until I get an explicit confirmation for the books I'm holding out that Theon's heavily traumatised but still existent ironcock lives on

>>48618938
for some reason I have trouble imagining Dany (as she currently is) giving up power to another person so I can't imagine her being dommed by Asha

>>48619083
Dominant people aren't always dominant in the bedroom.

Date a feminist some time. It's enlightening to see how submissive they can be under the sheets.

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>>48612889
>He was Bloodravens last protege after all
When the fuck was this mentioned/implied, or is this a theory?

>>48619013
The only flamboyantly gay thing in times like that of the book represents is specific forms of behavior.
Bright flashy colors were not gay in medieval times, they were EXPENSIVE. Expensive meant success if you had a lot of expensive shit, as it does now.

Daario's golden-hilt weapons (deliberately crafted in such a way that they have to have been custom work), his jewelry, and his brightly colored clothes is basically him flaunting his wealth and his success in his trade.

Combined with his total "I don't give a fuck" attitude, his casual aura of danger and overwhelmingly masculine behavior, basically Dany is 100% following the pattern of every teenage girl and falling for the dangerous gangster type.

>>48619120
>Date a feminist some time
I'd really rather not.

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>>48619120

>Date a feminist some time.

>>48619141
Not even him, but he's 100% correct.
It's not even here to deal with; you just need to not act like a troglodyte and treat her exactly like you treat every other human being, but in bed sometimes they're into all kind of weird shit because they often REFUSE to feel guilty about sex even one iota because that's a patriarchy thing I guess, even if they protest women as sex objects.

I've dated two (one of which I am still with) and both were into all kinds of weird shit in bed, up to and including crazy rape fantasy stuff.

>>48619120
>Date a feminist some time.
Honestly, I'm curious as hell as to my current GF's mental reasoning for our rape fantasy stuff, but I'm kind of nervous about asking because the GF BEFORE that I asked and she got all huffy because she never really could come up with an actual reason beyond it turned her on.
My current gf is far more reasonable mind you (not to mention genuinely fairly eloquent), but also if she withholds sex I'm kind of afraid how stupid I'll get for it since she kind of has me hooked on it.
I've never even enjoyed sex that much, so it's kind of doubly embarrassing.

>>48619214

>t. Qarl the Maid

>>48619214
It's taboo, and breaking sexual boundaries and taboos is at the very heart of a feminist ideology. It's in her consciousness. Maybe there's some weird Freudian shit going on, but I think a part of it is just the mentality.

GRRM has written three fairly feminist characters, Dany, Asha and Arianne, all seem to have fairly healthy sex lives and enjoy it rough. Keep in mind George has pretty much exclusively dated feminists throughout his life, and while a few have treated him like shit, I'm pretty sure his experience and knowledge of women come from these romances he's had.

>>48619268
No, though someone on here DID accuse me of dating irl Asha Greyjoy, though said gf is far more fond of Arianne as a character.
>>48619276
Arianne also sexually experimented with her cousins too I think according to the Winds of Winter sample chapter.
Them Dornish girls though.

>>48619121
>When I was a boy, I dreamt that I could fly. When I woke, I couldn't... or so the maester said. But what if he lied?
>Perhaps we can fly. All of us. How will we ever know unless we leap from some tall tower? No man ever truly knows what he can do unless he dares to leap.

>>48619294
There's two explanations; either that Bloodraven wanted him as an apprentice or that he's just crazy. I'm not yet discounting either, but there's already a lot of evidence stacking up on the side of crazy.

Doesn't mean he doesn't know magic though, though "knowing" magic seems a shitload easier then actually DOING magic in Planetos.

>>48619292
Winds of Winter is revealing a lot of sexual experimentations. Euron and his little bros were always at it.
Them Ironborn boys though.

>>48619325
Actually, he only pretends to be insane, so people underestimate him, so far he's been shown to be a shrewd politician and military genius

>>48619330
Yeah, I strongly think that Euron was more "at them" rather then anything consensual.
Euron mostly seems batshit crazy to me, and crazy people do things like rape their younger siblings and impregnate naive girls just to sacrifice them for laughs and throw literally irreplaceable dragon eggs off a boat in fits of pique and give away all their treasure because what they get off on is killing people in raids, not material things.

>>48619376
>he actually thinks he threw the egg in the sea
>he doesn't realize that giving away most of your plunder is a good way to assure loyalty

>>48619370
>>48619376
Euron sounds like he's a shit poster.
>I was only pretending to be retarded
>Shut the fuck up you fucking faggot suck my dick

>>48617666
his bro willas.

>>48619370
These things are not mutually exclusive.
Besides, so far he hasn't been militarily tested at all since the Ironborn have been raiding almost completely unchallenged since the war started more or less because naval forces are allocated elsewhere, and while Euron's good at getting people on his side he seems to largely do it by saying "take all my loot, I don't want it anyway!".
He doesn't seem very good at manipulating people, but he's aware that the Ironborn raid not for whatever bullshit religious reason Aeron wishes they did but because they like loot.

He promises them all the loot. Literally all of it. His speech is basically
>"I'm not going to explain the plan or back up my claims or help you follow my logic, but I'm going to give you Literally All The Loot and also folks who don't agree with me are faggots!"

It's vague, stupid, nonspecific, not helpful, not realistic (assuming no magic of course), and vaguely deranged sounding, but fortunately for him he's promising it to a culture of idiots.

>>48619325
I'd guess that given the way we've seen magic 'work', the less ambient magic there is in the world, the more skill and magic you need (magic in the form of blood, usually) to perform a trick. Melly likes to bang randoms to steal chunks of their life force, etc.

So Marwyn can probably do a bit on his own, but he'll rapidly find his power increasing in the future. And compared to the 'old' magic users, he'd likely be about as powerful as your average raw apprentice. And Euron would be similar.

I can't help but think the Doom was probably what signalled magic dipping in the world, rather than the loss of dragons. Probably a natural cycle.

>>48619172
Can confirm.

>>48619376
Next up: Sea dragons in the service of the drowned god.

>>48619443
His arguments during the Kingsmoot basically WAS shitposting.
He just made fun of people and then said he'd be better because he'd give them the entirety of the Seven Kingdoms without even explaining how, just that it was totally going to happen guys.

He's like modern a politician who preaches that he will fix literally everything but actually explains none of how he'll do it and then spends the rest of his time making fun of other people rather then actually coming up with a plan of any sort; it works, but only if the people you are appealing to are fucking idiots.

>>48619493
There's a theory out there that Euron is more or less attempting to sacrifice the entire Ironborn people in some sort of vast genocidal sacrifice to unlock his way to godhood.

Achieving CHIM in ASOIAF involves a lot of bloodshed.

>>48619545
make the iron isles great again lads

>>48619560
I'm not sure gods actually exist the way we think of even D&D gods in the setting. I think even the Great Other is really just a powerful physical being of another species (albeit a very strange one) and much like the Forest Children they can still be killed by anyone with the knowledge and the methods.

That might be his PLAN, but that doesn't mean it will work, only that he thinks it will work.
That said the practical result is the same; a shitload of people die for a single person's ego.

>>48619545

>then said he'd be better because he'd give them the entirety of the Seven Kingdoms without even explaining how

Balon made that exact same problem like what, three times?

>>48619586
Is that what that Trump guy is like?
I was actually thinking of Nigel Farage.
Kind of disappointing that TWO such fucking morons can show up in two different countries at the exact same time.

>>48619493
>made the plan to burn the Lannister fleet at port during the first rebellion
>sailed to the west before falling on the Shield Islands by using the sunset as a cover
>used a distraction to catch their navy in a trap
>while everybody thinks he captured them because he's planning to sack Highgarden, and is mobilizing men to take them back, it was all a distraction and the real blow will fall on Oldtown

>>48619460
Mace and Alerie has raised some pretty great kids. Willas is set to be a benevolent and competent lord, Ser Garlan is the epitome of chivalry, Ser Loras is (was?) a great tourney knight.

>>48619325
>he's just crazy
I'd like this. It's honestly one of my favorite parts of the series, people with visions of grandeur and importance and destiny getting revealed to just be garden variety delusional. Everyone's individual, and self serving, prophecies about the comet were my favorite bit of this.

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>>48619626
>when the Remain butthurt hits
It's been a month now lad, let it go

>>48619605
Twice, so far. But a couple of other Greyjoys did it too, like the Red Kraken.
The Ironborn are fucking idiots.

>>48613935
I've daydreamed about and thought about character campaigns myself. It just fits so well.

>>48619643
It's actually fairly telling that Oleanna has nothing but nice things to say about Willas when she has nothing but barbs for seemingly everyone else.
And since Willas' primary virtues are his studious nature and intelligence, that suggests he is very bright indeed.

>>48619648
>tfw Scotland and Northern Ireland leaves the UK to stay in the EU

>>48619680
Fuck off Salmond you had your chance

>>48619603
Well yeah, I don't see Euron literally becoming a god, but sacrifice does seem to do something- Burning Varys's penis awoke some spiritual voice, Dany sacrificing her womb kept Drogo alive and burning Mirri Maz Duur along with Drogo's corpse and dragon eggs awoke dragons, and something weird did happen at Summerhall involving lots of death and fire.

So I reckon he'll awaken some fierce magic and powers. It's usually in the penultimate part of the story that the apocalyptic shit starts entering, and I think Euron will be a key part of this. Will he claim a dragon of his own? Likely. Will he awaken a kraken or a sea monster or the Drowned God by sacrificing the Redwyne Fleet and his own? It could happen. Will he awaken the ancient race of half-man half-fish creatures known as the Deep Ones? Possibly. Will the water around Oldtown boil red and the air become toxic? I don't know, but maybe.

Will Euron become a God? I don't think so.
Will he be hailed as one and temporarily worshipped? Yes. I think this is definitely happening.

>>48619648
Hey, I'll live anon.
I'm Scottish and we're already making deals with Europe to stay friendly.
It's the English who were so dumb as to believe a guy who claimed that by leaving the Union they could find healthcare and then literally immediately retracted that horn he tooted over and over and blatantly misrepresented facts.

>>48619722
>would fund healthcare

>>48619493
Sounds like he's good at manipulating people, then.

He's just tailoring his approach.

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>>48619626
Haha yeah I was referencing Trump but I actually like Farage and voted Leave. I don't think our situation is that dire. FTSE has us doing even better than before the referendum, that drop in the market after the first day went back to normal quickly, plus free trade deals are being offered repeatedly.

I don't really want to get into this now though, but I'm glad /asoiaf/ has a diverse political opinion and it isn't a hugbox or a circle jerk in here.

>>48619700
Chances come around when the pound drops and everyone disagrees with what you did.
That said I think leaving would be a bad idea, as it's certainly not the first stupid cock up folk over in England have done that we've all had to live with and pull through with our gracious help fixing the mess they made.

It's called "being the responsible one", I believe.

>>48619781
As an outsider I just don't see what the UK has to benefit from leaving. If you want to keep all the benefits the EU gives you you'll still have to follow all their rules and regulations.

>>48619796
It's going to be back on track in a few months or so, but opportunistic shites like Sturgeon saw the chance in the fear and panic and immediately started preaching "MUH INDEPENDENCE" but based iron lady 2.0 slapped her shit down.

Reminder: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1tJJO_pVvQ

>>48619781
The shit I keep hearing about Trump sounds difficult to believe to me honestly.
I've family in Seattle I was planning to go stay with for awhile in a few months but to me the man sounds like an unbelievable shitlord who SOMEhow got put in charge of half the fucking country.

Even Joffery was able to be superficially charming, what does he have?
A crap hairdo and a face that looks like he's perpetually in the middle of taking an exceptionally painful shit?

>>48619680
It's probably for the best considering Scotland just goes against whatever England does, I think half the Scots that voted just did the opposite of what they thought the English would do.

>>48619852
I actually voted to stay part of the U.K.
I think leaving is a piss poor idea and would just be decades of effort for not much real payoff at all.

>>48619841
America will do fine. Both Hillary and Trump are so fucking disliked that whoever wins will either be impeached, or at the very least won't get reelected in 2020 and a more responsible President will emerge. It's only 4 years of a corrupt puppet or a vain madman.

>>48619841
>unbelievable shitlord
Back to tumblr

>>48619852
One of the reasons Scotland voted to stay in the UK during their last referendum was becaus they didn't want to go through the process of joining the EU as an independent country. Everyone could see from a mile away that Scotland would vote stay.

>>48619830
People have deluded themselves into thinking that the EU decides all of their laws for them and they didn't think through the consequences.

Essentially, they thought that as soon as the referendum was over, they'd be able to kick all of the Muslims out of the country and they'd never see a brown face again.

Thread got off a little off track.
Let's refocus to more relevant matters; do you suppose Dornish girls take it up the ass?
If yes, how often?
If no, why are you such a downer?
If maybe, why yes, and how often?

>>48619928
I guess Dornish girls take it up the arse about as much as Dornish men.

>>48619830
There's a lot of reasons, both for leaving and for remaining. For me, leaving was about the opportunity to negotiate our own deals with the rest of the world, get out of a Union that was heading forward towards integration rapidly involving an EU Army that wants to get even more involved in foreign crises, something I have no desire for, and it would mean a chance to reform our immigration system which is in heavy need of reform as we're already suffering a housing crisis and frankly the country is getting a bit too full.
It's not in the EU's interests to cut trade with the UK because most EU countries rely on trade with the UK, so we have an almost guaranteed deal there.
I don't really like the EU in general though, and I hope it splits after more countries potentially leave the union in the next few decades.

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>>48619928
Yes
On a semi-regular basis

>>48619952
This too I suppose

>>48619928
I see anal sex in ASOIAF as a form of avoiding pregnancies and bastards- I don't think this would be too much of a problem in Dorne as bastards are treated relatively well.

I would assume though that affairs between nobles in most of the Seven Kingdoms involve a fair amount of anal sex

Did /got/ die or something?

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>>48620016
What is dead will never die, but will rise again, shittier and even more spam-ridden.

>>48620016
The Branfags and shippers killed it. It somehow became tumblr.

>>48620038
>tripfag wank
No need to bring the shitposting over here

>>48620078
None of those trips have been active for years

>>48619928
Dornish women are all anal sluts for valyrian stallions

>>48620001
Only if you can't get moontea

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>>48619884
Why doesn't Trump fuck his daughter again?

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>>48620133
Friend I believe he has on numerous occasions

>>48620128
Is Moon Tea like a morning after pill and Tansy like a full on abortion?

Or am I mixing things up? I know a lot of noblewomen drink moon tea, but Lysa's womb got fucked up because of whatever she had

>>48620161
Tansy is what Lysa had. Daddy didn't want Petyr sticking his littlefinger inside her.

>>48617666

I just reread the series and couldn't tell you a single thing he accomplished

>>48620119
I still can't believe we finally got the HDW

If Dorne and the Martells throw everything behind Dany, who's going to fill the power vacuum if they fail?

>>48620298
He rode the van in Tywin's cavalry charge during the Blackwater, wearing Renly's armor. He inspired the legend of "King Renly's shade defeating Stannis"

>>48620350
Well they don't need to be attained, they could just take a few hostages and that'll be it, and if not, the Yronwoods or the Daynes

>>48620350
Fuck Dany shes annoying in the books and the show. I'd rather the sand snakes pull a full retard moment on her.

>>48620350
In Dorne?

Probably the Yronwoods. At least in the northwestern parts with all the stony finish, might even break off into their own kingdom. If the Martells fail full stop, I.e. everyone relevant dead, I think the eastern part of Dorne will fall to chaos for awhile. One or two of these Sandsnakes might survive and be able to rally sandy/salty dornish to them, but it wouldn't be the same sort of power and influence House Martell originally had.

>>48613138
>wizards vs sorcerers

>>48620350
It looks more likely that Dorne will throw their lot in with Aegon. I think Arianne will be his Queen, and the main objective will be for her to convince Aegon to adopt Dornish Law for all of the Seven Kingdoms.

Will based Princely come back to us now that Obama's run as president is at an end?

Or are we forever doomed to never know who he marries?

>>48620813
Well atleast he made a appearance in Malroy Quest

>>48620890
That was pretty neat, Paxter buying him a present from Brynden, the reference to a son and his ridiculous gold machine made me smile. Wish we could have had an actual moment with him, looked like he was getting nervous about the iron born getting restless.

Quick, give me the top 5 swordsmen in Westeros right now.

>>48621410
Jaime Lannister
Arthur Dayne
Hotpie
Syrio Forel
Loras Tyrell
Wubwub

>>48621426

He said "right now", and half of those characters are dead or crippled as of ADoD

>>48621426
THey are still the best as of right now.

>>48618507

The end of the story is gonna be about lannisters too for sure

Fuck the greyjoys anyway, and as far as baratheons go, who's left but stannis? Stannis might die at the beginning of WoW

Stark's targaryens and lannisters are the most interesting groups anyway

>>48621960
Yeah I'm certain that like nearly all of the great famillies will be extinguished by the end

>>48622285
The Lannister still have a horde of cousins and that is not even bringing in the cadet houses.

>>48622337
Well. that's why I said nearly all.

I think them and the Tyrells will survive, due to all the relatives and such, but the rest are fucked

>>48622285

I'm fairly certain when Book!Jon comes back he'll take up Stannis's offer of becoming a Stark. Considering according to RAW he no longer has to serve the Watch.

>>48622364
RAW?
Also, following the letter of the law and not the spirit of it doesn't sound like Jon, who had conniptions about sleeping with Ygritte

>>48622402
His sworn brothers stabbed him to death, I don't think the watch still has the same appeal.

>>48622402

Rules As Written. The Night Watch oath binds a person until death. Guess what qualifer Jon just met?

Plus rejoining the Watch will be very difficult for him, considering they killed him. I doubt they'll want him back, and he has shown he'd rather become Jon Stark than stay on the Wall. It's just he knew his oath took precedence. But he's fufilled that oath now, and more importantly given the Night's Watch betrayed him rallying the Northmen around him might be his best chance at repelling the Others right now.

Jon's a complex character. He really does have Eddard's sense of morality. I can see him leaving the Watch behind if he feels he'll do his duty better ruling the North.

>>48622465
Half a dozen of them did, so he'll abandon them all, Pyp and Grenn and Edd and all the rest? Not like him
>>48622468
Again, following the letter of the law, not the spirit. If the first lord commander knew that people could be resurrected he'd write "forever". It's pure fanfiction faggotry
>He really does have Eddard's sense of morality
Thus he'll keep his oath, even if it kills him
>I can see him leaving the Watch behind if he feels he'll do his duty better ruling the North.
The entire point of ADWD is him trying to tell everyone that the others are coming, and no one listening. If he's resurrected, it's not like the Others will go away

>>48619048
Nah

Remember theres a part where theon is put into a sexual situation and says "I don't have" or something like that

>>48622552
Nah, he stutters out something like "M'lord, you know, I can't do it" but Ramsay cuts him off, so it's still in the air

>>48622538

>The entire point of ADWD is him trying to tell everyone that the others are coming, and no one listening. If he's resurrected, it's not like the Others will go away

Which is why he might get a better defense going by appealing to the North as Eddard's heir instead of going back to and begging for help from the people who murdered him.

I'm not gonna die on this hill, I'm just saying I can see Gurm taking the story this way. The fact is the North is essentially leaderless right now, and the only person who has any kind of authority is a guy everyone else there hates. It's a pretty large loose end.

>>48622622
There's still Rickon, who Manderly sent Davos to fetch. Jon wouldn't steal his true born brother's position

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>>48622662
>tfw little bitch Lyanna Mormont talked shit about based Pieman

>>48622693

When was that?

>>48622693
>season 7 premier
>the best bear pie you've ever tasted my friends. Wash it down with Arbor gold and savor every bite. I know I shall

>>48622745
I'm quite curious where Show-Arya found the Manderly cookbook.

>>48622693

You know, memes aside I really did love Wyman. As the books build up to him, all the alarms go off. Fat lord. Southernmost holding in the North. Worships the Seven. Freys in his court.

And then what does he say to Davos?

"The North fucking remembers"

>>48622776
Nah, incompetent bitch fucked it up by having a big fucking finger in the middle of it. At least Pieman minced the meat up

>>48621465
>no garlan

>>48622790
>tfw you were worried as fuck that davos was dead
>you hear what an oathbreaker and coward Wyman is.
>pappy lannister doesn't think too highly of him
>the bloke on the finger hates him
>"The North remembers Ser Davos. My son is home."
I was so fucking erect.

>>48622776
Classic example of D&D not understanding what made a scene awesome.

The awesome thing about the pie scene in the books isn't the part where the boltons and the freys eat their relatives, it's that everyone thinks that Wyman is a fat, stupid coward, and during the entire scene he's mocking them (calling for the rat cook to be played, loudly belching)
>>48622840
Most overrated faggot ever

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>>48622790
I built a fleet in order to support the Starks, in secret even while Willas is being held by the Lannisters. I baked Symeon, Rhaegar & Jared into pies, and the Boltons & Freys didn't even realize they dined on their kin. I gambled & sent Lord Davos Seaworth to retrieve my liege lord, though he was being kept in the horrors of Skagos. Tell me, Lady Mormont, what have you done that compares?

>>48622885
>Most overrated faggot ever
that isn't oberyn
>>48622909
"I wrote a letter to my rightful liegelord! xD"

>>48622693
>>48622909
Am I the only one that feels that he has ulterior motives other than loyalty? I mean, keeping his part of the ancient pact may be sweet, but I suppose it's just a coincidence that he'll most likely rule as regent seeing as Rickon is 5?

>>48622953

Probably a bit of both. But I like to the think at the end of the day Wyman is unambiguously a good guy.

>>48622953
Just about everyone has them. Even Robb's bannermen requested things like ships in exchange for their services in the War of the Five Kings. Manderly had an entire ACOK chapter where he discussed how he thinks White Harbor should be in charge of the mint for the new Northern independent currency.

>>48620360

Oh I thought it was loras wearing renly' armor?

>>48622953

It's all the same thing

People are loyal because loyalty is rewarded by good leaders

He wants the starks back because the boltons and freys are lying scum with no appreciation for his loyalty to the north, he knows once the stark's are back that's good for him

>>48623469

This. A big part of the reason the Starks endured for so long is they're typically pretty good at rewarding loyalty. Eddard himself was pretty popular with just about everyone except Roose.

>>48623469
Mormonts and northern hillbillies are loyal as well, yet Manderly is going to reap the most benefits

anyone have a link to the chronicle starter? It's not in the mediafire folder

>>48623487
Even Roose came when the banners were called however, it's not his fault that Robb fucked everything up royally, the man just tried to salvage the situation

>>48623594
>the man just tried to salvage the situation
Even when Robb was winning, Roose was doing shit behind his back.

>>48623487
Even Roose was actually loyal up intill Robb thought sieging Casterly Rock was a great idea.

>>48623528

That's not really manderly's concern is it?

If the mormonts and other hillbillies want to have a higher place in the northern hierarchy they can make their case to the king in da norf

>>48623594

Robb didn't fuck everything up at all you stupid fuckin shit eating piece of garbage

He fucked one thing up and was defeated by disloyal bannermen that plotted against him from the beginning

>>48623626
>sieging Casterly Rock was a great idea
If anything, it sorta was. Robb BTFO Tywin pretty hard, capturing Jamie & even destroying Stafford's army.

>>48623651

To be fair the one thing he fucked up was a pretty big fuck-up. He burned a guy who he absolutely needed on his side simply because he started thinking with his dick.

>>48623622
Roose only started plotting when Robb lost the North, broke the marriage pact and Stannis was defeated at Blackwater; he knew the northerners were fucked
>>48623651
>all this rage over a fictional character dead 16 years
Yikes, the autism is real.

Anyway, he made more than one mistake, stop lying

>>48623626

Robb didn't siege casterly Rock though, nor do I remember him ever saying he definitely wanted to, nor was that even the worst idea, nor was Roose actually loyal up to that point, Roose was plotting from the beginning

>>48623685
>he absolutely needed on his side
The Freys? Nah. By the time they crossed the bridge, Robb was free to flip them off however he wished. The other Tullys contributed far more men to Robb's cause.

>>48623688
>Roose only started plotting when Robb lost the North
>Battle on the Green Fork

>>48623651
Two things. Killing Karstark was a mistake, he should have sent him to the wall at the very worst.

>>48622909
>horrors of Skagos
Man my every hope and dream is that they just go full balls to wall batshit crazy with the Skagosi. I feel like the timeskip GRRM wanted to do would have benefited Rickon so much, let the "Wild Wolf" grow up and begin to come into his own. Amass an army from Skagos decreeing they'd be allowed to sail again and building a navy to compliment Manderly's, take a wife from one of their Houses assuring loyalty, have kickass unicorn Calvary. Fuck man.

>>48623688

The northerners weren't fucked until Roose and the freys fucked them, Roose also planned to betray the starks from the beginning but he had to wait for an opportunity

I actually have autism so I'd appreciate you not making fun of me purely on that account

>>48623735
I say letting Edmure stop Tywin was the worst. Robb had layed a trap & Edmure prevented Tywin from springing it.

>>48623685
Oh, we're talking about the show here, not the books where Robb shotgun weddings himself.

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>>48623747

>I actually have autism so I'd appreciate you not making fun of me purely on that account

>>48623730
In what ways was that plotting? Robb ordered him to give battle and distract Tywin while he attacked Jaime, Roose did a night attack and retreated immediately after, if he really was plotting he would have sacrificed the entire army
>>48623706
The Freys took an enormous risk supporting him, lost the heir apparent and gave him 4000 men, and he shat on them. Based Walder just took the trash out
>>48623747
>Ironborn have half the North
>Karstarks deserting
>Stannis defeated, + they have the Reach on their side
Roose did the right thing
>>48623763
Another one of Robb "the genius" Stark's mistakes

>>48623812

I want Ramsay to leave.

>>48623812

Roose did sacrifice all the troops not loyal to him

The freys were supposed to be loyal to their bannermen, aka the tullies

You're so fuckin retarded it's unbelievable

Everybody knows the iron born couldn't really keep the north, also that wasn't Robb's fault

Also the reach are known to change sides

There is no fucking excuse for what the boltons and freys did, they betrayed their bannermen in the hopes of being rewarded by the wealthy and powerful lannisters, both houses will soon be completely eliminated for their retarded mistake, proving you to be equally retarded

Also edmure being a fuckup is not Robb's fault either

>>48623812
>if he really was plotting he would have sacrificed the entire army
Nonsense, taking losses that big would be extremely eyebrow raising. Heck, the losses in the battle were mainly non-Bolton men.
>He glimpsed the bull moose of the Hornwoods, the Karstark sunburst, Lord Cerwyn’s battle-axe, and the mailed fist of the Glovers . . . and the twin towers of Frey.
In Tyrion VIII, where were the Bolton men in the front lines?

>>48623812
>The Freys took an enormous risk supporting him
They're Tully bannermen who were lucky to have negotiated a deal as good as what they got. Robb had to cross to save Riverrun from Jamie yet the Freys responded "We're sworn to help our lords but I'm not going to actually do so unless you marry us."

>>48623888
>Roose did sacrifice all the troops not loyal to him
Nope
>The freys were supposed to be loyal to their bannermen, aka the tullies
And when the tullies shit on them, they're supposed to eat it all up and ask for more? Fuck off, respect goes both ways
>Everybody knows the iron born couldn't really keep the north, also that wasn't Robb's fault
Catelyn FUCKING tells him that Balon is not to be trusted, and if he insists on sending him a message at least keep Theon as a hostage. He tells her to fuck off, and loses Winterfell
>Also the reach are known to change sides
Yes I'm sure they'll support some random northern wacko
>There is no fucking excuse for what the boltons and freys did, they betrayed their bannermen in the hopes of being rewarded by the wealthy and powerful lannister
You're so fucking small minded you can't see it through their perspective
>northern barbarian comes through
>promises to marry daughter
>give him heir and nearly all your army
>heir dies on campaign
>most likely lose some men as well
>northern barbarian breaks deal
>now you're fucked since you fought against the crown, but you're also fucked because the horny teenager broke the deal

>Also edmure being a fuckup is not Robb's fault either

Robb the Retard should send clearer messages next time
>uncle I want you to hold Riverrun
>dude wtf why did you hold Riverrun

>>48623935
They don't have to do shit. Robb and Hoster are legally considered traitors, Walder has a loyalty to the crown

>>48623763
>Edmure was a mistake
t. the Riverlands

>>48624013
>Walder has a loyalty to the crown
He sworn to House Tully, not House Lannister nor Baratheon. Legally, he is sworn to Robb by extension.

>>48623996
>Nope
Reread Tyrion VIII.
>when the tullies shit on them
Yes they are. They're bannermen.

>>48624072
Who are sworn to the King. If he goes traitor, the rightful thing is to stay loyal to the King. Stannis talks about this

>>48623996

>the tullies shit on the freys

Being a liege lord =/= "shitting on them", the freys have no fucking excuse

Keeping theon as a hostage would not have stopped the iron born from doing what they did, they had plans already, and I agree they should've been prepared for what happened but there was no choice, they had to march south

The reach don't need to be loyal to a northern wacko to be against the lannisters, aka what they've been 100% of the story

You can make excuses for the freys and boltons all you want but we fuckin read the books it's all in there

There should never have been a marriage pact in the first place, the freys should've marched to riverrun but they hoped that their liege lords would be defeated by the lannisters and they could swoop in for the spoils, they are scum and always have been

The freys were not anymore fucked by what happened than any other house

>>48624107
>Who are sworn to the King
The hand is attached to the arm. If the arm is removed from the body, is the hand still attached to the body or the arm? Besides, the King in the North is their king.

>>48624107

>meanwhile stannis is a traitor to the crown

The right thing to do is to be loyal to the more local higher up first

>>48624111

Trips confirm.

By all accounts the Tullies were remarkably gracious to the Freys, what with allowing them to freely extort anyone who wanted passage over their bridge and just sort of writing it of as a mild inconvenience.

>>48624089
Only thing that proves is that Roose wants to use other men during battle, which is completely reasonable.
>Yes they are. They're bannermen.
Feudal contract goes both ways. You respect your liege, but your liege respects you as well. If one party breaks that contract, the other one is free to tell them to fuck off. This extends to horny teenage kings as well, who might find out that the consequences of breaking this contract is getting a wolf's head sewn on you

>>48624111
>Being a liege lord =/= "shitting on them", the freys have no fucking excuse

I'm talking about Robb breaking the contract.

>Keeping theon as a hostage would not have stopped the iron born from doing what they did
It would have stopped the fall of Winterfell and the "deaths" of Bran and Rickon
>The reach don't need to be loyal to a northern wacko to be against the lannisters, aka what they've been 100% of the story

Why would they wage war against the Lannisters? They earn nothing from that

>>48624139
>house of the Riverlands
>sworn to the King of the NORTH
lmao
>>48624160
There's a reason why "only following orders" is not allowed in court

>>48624170
>Only thing that proves is that Roose wants to use other men during battle, which is completely reasonable.
It proves that he held back his own men from the fight, a good quarter or so of the men, cavalry & more he had. Just look at the insane tactics Roose uses. When the Lannisters send their archers, Roose decides to send infantry to meet them instead of his own archers. The friendly fire there's a problem too, arrows were hitting Lannister & Stark men alike.

>>48624170

>extort a marriage contract from your lawful superiors despite already showing deliberate disloyalty
>contract is broken, therefore you get to assassinate your lawful rulers after inviting them into your home under false pretenses

What would a fucking Frey know about respect? Fucking nothing, and neither do you, you're basically a Frey at this point, except in real life

Have fun with the whole extinction of your house and what not, while the Starks and every other loyal house survives

>>48624217
>There's a reason why "only following orders" is not allowed in court
That's why you might need to switch to the strongest side, because winners don't get tried for war crimes. Stannis is weak right now and the outlook is not good.

>>48624217

The river lands swore an oath to the king in the north

The Tyrells were literally about to wage war against the lannisters before renly was assassinated, the only reason they didn't was because stannis is retarded

>>48624217
>Riverlands
Reminder that the Tullys were not allied with the Lannisters, they were fighting them. In fact, before Robb was declared King in the North & the Riverlands, Riverrun was under seige from the Lannisters. The Starks were riding to save them. The Freys denied their lords help by holding back the Starks.

>>48624217

>It would have stopped the fall of Winterfell and the "deaths" of Bran and Rickon

Roose would've gone loose on Winterfell regardless of the Ironborn's presence there. Every other ironborn tried talking Theon out of attacking it at every opportunity.

Winterfell was doomed from the start, and it wasn't because of Theon.

>>48624281
LAWFUL superior? Robb is nothing to them at that point. And as I mentioned, in feudal times you were expected to swear loyalty to your liege lord, who swears to the king, but if that chain is broken, by rights you're supposed to revert to the king.

>contract is broken, therefore you get to assassinate your lawful rulers after inviting them into your home under false pretenses
A lie for a lie, a broken contract for a broken contract

>Have fun with the whole extinction of your house and what not, while the Starks and every other loyal house survives
You do realize we're talking FICTION, right? How the fuck do you function through life? Did you go catatonic when they killed Ned or something?
>>48624323
Remember, we're talking before Robb was crowned KOTN, which means they're still sworn to the Tullies, but since they're in rebellion they're sworn to Joffrey.
>>48624340
The Tully's were considered traitors (not that I agree btw), Thus, the Freys were loyal to the king

>>48624390
>The Tully's were considered traitors (not that I agree btw), Thus, the Freys were loyal to the king
>Tully Bannermen are loyal to the Lannisters
Next you'll call everyone a traitor for not killing the Baratheons in the name of the Targeryans.

>>48624390
>but since they're in rebellion they're sworn to Joffrey
Their oaths to the Tullys take priority.

>>48624416
By that point, Joffrey was still considered a rightful Baratheon.
>>48624437
Nope, read a book sometimes

>>48624476
>By that point, Joffrey was still considered a rightful Baratheon
And Dany is still alive. Should everyone be like Selmy?

>>48624390

Wait are you unironically saying the red wedding = broken marriage contract? That's a fair exchange?

How about all the other stark loyalists assassinated at the wedding?

You're fuckin retarded dude, actually no, you're just being devils advocate, but still, goddamn

ASoIaF is real man, I can't wait for you and shit house to go extinct you fucking Frey piece of shit

The freys never swore any oath to Joffrey

Did you forget that Royal succession is supposed to be ratified by the lesser lords? Why do you think they ask people to come swear fealty? Because you're not really a king to anybody that hasn't sworn fealty to you

>>48624323
Renly was the idiot. It was blatantly apparent that Stannis was never going to produce a male heir. Renly should have sat on his ambitions for a decade and taken the throne when it came to him.

Fuck, why would you even want to be a winter king? Dump that shit on Stannis and enjoy becoming king when the summer rolls back around.

>>48624476
Reminder:
>“It was the Trident all over, damn the man. Her brother Edmure had called the banners; by rights, Lord Frey should have gone to join the Tully host at Riverrun, yet here he sat.”

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>>48624544
>Wait are you unironically saying the red wedding = broken marriage contract? That's a fair exchange?
Ye pretty much
>How about all the other stark loyalists assassinated at the wedding?
Unfortunate casualties
>ASoIaF is real man, I can't wait for you and shit house to go extinct you fucking Frey piece of shit
Oh god stop it already

>>48624578
That's what the emotionally compromised Catelyn thinks; in reality, he's supposed to revert to the king

>>48624551
This right here. Renly had it all but fucked up harder than anyone who's not Balon. He didn't know about the shadowbabies but he's too much of a warmonger to speak peace.

>>48624612
>in reality, he's supposed to his sworn overlord
Who is a Tully, not Baratheon.

>>48624551
>>48624617
Reminder that Renly's chief military adviser was Mace Tyrell, the man who lost Robert's Rebellion for the Targaryens.

>>48614134
>>48614222
As an amateur scholar of the Three States era I find these superficial comparisons between fictional characters and actual human persons who had their own dreams and lived and died to be idiotic, disrespectful, and offensive.

Question. If you got a character how would he/she be if they sat on the Iron Throne.

Got a aging knight who was the bastard brother of the former lord. Grumphy fat bastard who constantly complained about his wife who he is certain was unfaithful to him.

He would probably be assassinated within the first year after yelling at every courtrier in the castle to get off out of his throne room.

>>48624637
Again, going by real life feudal contracts, he swears to Tully who swears to Joffrey, but if that chain gets broken he's supposed to swear to Joffrey directly until the rebellion is over; medieval kings knew they had the risk of disloyal dukes so they wrote this stuff to minimize the damage of rebellions

>>48624551

Renly was stupid too but stannis should've put aside his autism until the lannisters were defeated

Instead he had his brother assassinated and alienated possible allies

>>48624665
I wonder how many feasts he had in front of Storm's End he had before he realized he lost.

>>48624612
This was not yet an active rebellion. The Freys had been called to help defend against the unlawful predations of the Lannister forces who were, for some reason, marching against the Riverlands in response to a Stark dragging a Lannister off to the Vale.

>>48624677
>real life feudal contracts
Where is this coming from? The Lannisters attacking the Tullys happened before Robb declared for independence.

>>48624578
Treason is merely a question about dates.

>>48624677

But because the tullies never swore to Joffrey (and therefore neither did the freys) this does not apply

Joffrey was never the rightful king of the freys until after the red wedding was planned

Kings don't just get to be king because they claim to be the true born heir of the previous one, it has to be sealed by oaths from lords

>>48624592

>Hide Frey Threads
>Ignore Frey Posts
>Do Not Respond to Frey Posters

Guys, what do you think happened to Dacey mormont? She was my battlefu
>>48624390
>he didn't go catatonic after seeing the red wedding on TV
They did the entire thing incredibly well, especially the direwolf on robb's head.

>>48624691
IIRC by that time Tywin was hand of the king and he had already declared the Tullys rebels for seizing a member of the royal family

>>48624677
>going by real life feudal contracts
By ASOIAF feudal contracts, various lesser houses are sworn to their liegelords. The Manderlys for example are sworn to be Stark men & not men of whomever the Starks serve.

>>48624741
She made a lovely (naked) hanging corpse.

>>48624682
12, one for every month of the siege, obviously.

>>48624680
Allies with...whom? Renly basically gave the ultimatum "let me be king or I'll sic my army on you". The Tyrells had no interest in following Stannis because Renly was more popular in Highgarden/easier to control. The North wanted out of the whole affair all together, Dorne was trying to get themselves on the throne via Targaryen restoration.

The man didn't exactly have a great plethora of options.

>>48624691

This right here

The fucking Frey faggot's bullshit all falls apart when you realize that this stuff started before Robert even died, the freys had already planned to betray their liege lords and scoop up some Lannister bux

But they failed, the lannisters don't need lying scum like the freys (the freys didn't take that into account) and the freys are now reaping the rewards of their retarded plots

>>48624718
Yes, but immediately after Robert died Tywin became hand and retroactively made the Tullys traitors
>>48624721
You can't claim your rebellion is justified because
>lol old one died

>>48624773
If they had planned to betray their liege lord and scoop up the Lannister bux they would have invited Robb and his lords for dinner then seized them

>>48624756

No you misunderstand

Stannis' mistake started way before it even got to that point, he should've been upfront from the beginning and working together with Ned and renly

>>48624780
>retroactively made the Tullys traitors
This means before the Tullys declare Robb their king the Freys should have betrayed their lords? It's like saying the Starks should have been killed at Robert's Rebellion by the Baratheons.

>>48624811
By the time Robb gets to the Twins Tywin has already justified his invasion. From their PoV, their overlords are traitors

>>48624799

They literally did do exactly that, they just waited until they had a better time, where they could ensure they could kill not only Robb but also much of his fighting force, like they did at the red wedding

>>48624843
Yes, after he broke the contract and got their heir killed.

If they wanted to betray them from the start, they would have killed them when they first crossed at the Twins

>>48624805
Ned, maybe. But at that point, Jon Arryn was already dead and Stannis had good reason to assume that King's Landing wasn't the safest place.

But Renly? Nah, Renly was making his own plans to put himself on the throne, he and Stannis had barely spoken in years. The chances of them working together was nigh zero.

>>48624755
did they do that to her?
is it mentioned anywhere?
frey genocide by wolf when?

>>48624836
>By the time Robb gets to the Twins Tywin has already justified his invasion
Retroactively? The Tully bannermen are supposed to respond to when the Tullys raise their banners. All the others went when Edmure raised his. Edmure even did so before Robert was dead.