/cofd/&/wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness General

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Spirit of Cannibal Penguins

Viable antagonist?

In 1e of Scion, you fought Titans and Titanspawn, which were like evil Scion. I assume that 2e will have a similar central conflict, but probably in a slightly different form.

A question: when the Kickstarter drops, would that be the right opportunity to start a Scion general? I wouldn't mind making one.

>>48535927
>not a protagonist
What's the point?

>>48536127
I hate that cunt

>>48535880

Scion is ostensibly about fighting the Titans and becoming a God yourself, but 2e is apparently opening that all up a bit more.

>>48535880
This threads was almost so spooky I didn't wan't to post in it.

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>>48537156

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>>48537195
mfw

I understand that Gangrel gain animal features over the years (or is it when they use one of their disciplines?).
Is there any unique way to go about this without just going wolf like?

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The new Mage 2e errata leaves spells like Space 1's The Outward and Inward Eye ambiguous in a critically important fashion, Time 2's Veil of Moments system-breaking by RAW, and Time 4's Prophecy completely Social maneuvering-destroying, but let us focus on something even more egregious that was completely untouched by errata: Fate boons being able to grant Steadfast.

How did this receive no errata at all? Let us see what is still possible with a middling Fate-user with Gnosis 2, Fate 2, an Order Rote Skill at 4 dots, and a Rote for Exceptional Luck. Since the Informed Condition is sketchy on its RAW validity, we will be eschewing its usage here.

For context, according to DaveB, if you are casting magic under time constraints and/or pressure and fail, you take a cumulative -1 penalty on subsequent attempts. If you are under neither time constraints nor pressure, you must use the "down and dirty spellcasting" rules, which prevents you from using Yantra bonuses or spell factors:
https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/47565839/#47571978
https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/47565839/#47572307
https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/47565839/#47572307
https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/47565839/#47578204

Additionally, Fate 2's Exceptional Luck costs Mana in order for it to grant a bonus beyond +5:
https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/47578117/#47579868

Neither was included in the errata, but neither was denied by the errata either, so let us assume DaveB's rulings above still apply.

None of the following were changed by the errata either:
• Page 111 of Mage 2e says, "The penalties to spellcasting can exceed the normal –5 penalty cap to dice pools. In cases where the penalty would reduce the dice pool beyond 0 — and thereby a chance die — by an additional –5 even after including bonuses from Yantras, the spell is too complex for the mage to cast and it automatically fails." This should not be an issue if the final pool is -5.

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>>48537885

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>>48537898

• The rule concerning spell stacking in page 118 concerns "multiple spells [affecting] the same aspect of the character," which does not prevent a single spell from buffing the dice pool for the same spell about to be recast.
• Page 119 tells us that "a mage can draw upon one Yantra as a reflexive action when casting a spell."
• According to page 134, a single hex/boon can have its Potency split up to cover multiple effects. However, this is still a single hex, just like the example with "a Potency 4 hex allows the mage to levy a penalty on the subject's next two actions, as well as apply the Blinded and Leg Wrack Tilts" shows us. Likewise, "boons that affect the same skill do not combine their effects (only the highest bonus counts)," but this should not be a problem if we are relying on only one boon and are not actually trying to stack numerical bonuses together.
• Page 136 lets +2 Reach allow the entire boon from Fate 2's Exceptional Luck to affect spellcasting rolls, and another +2 Reach and 1 Mana can allow the spell to be cast as a reflexive action.

Let us examine four scenarios.

~~~

Scenario A: The mage is in a calm situation and would like to succeed at a mundane task—any mundane task at all, even something absurdly difficult such as succeeding on an unskilled roll with an additional -5 penalty for difficulty.

Step #1: Cast Exceptional Luck. One Reach for instant action casting, one Reach for Advanced Duration, one Reach for Advanced Potency. One leftover Reach. Mudra Yantra, but no bonus from it.
Dice pool: Gnosis 2 + Fate 2 = 4 dice, for an ~75.22% chance of regular success and a ~0.77% chance of exceptional success. If this roll fails, since this is a calm scene, the spell can simply be reattempted.
Result: Potency 2 Exceptional Luck lasting for an hour. Allocated to 9-again or chance-die-to-regular-die on the next dice roll and the Steadfast Condition.

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>>48537912

Step #2: The mage now attempts the task with a 100% chance of earning at least one success. No matter how many penalties are levied against them, the boon will always convert a chance die to a regular die, and if that fails, Steadfast can trigger for an automatic success.

~

Scenario B: The mage is in a tense scenario and would like to cast an extremely powerful spell, not necessarily a Fate spell. They are completely out of time; they need to cast the spell this very instant, during their turn, perhaps because they are embroiled in combat.

Step #1: Cast Exceptional Luck. Two Reaches and 1 Mana for reflexive action casting, two Reaches to affect spellcasting. Mudra Yantra.
Dice pool: Gnosis 2 + Fate 2 + Mudra 5 = 9 dice, for a ~78.69% chance of regular success and a ~17.27% chance of exceptional success.
Result: Potency 2 Exceptional Luck lasting for a turn, affecting spellcasting. Allocated to 9-again or chance-die-to-regular-die on the next dice roll and the Steadfast Condition.

Step #2: Cast a spell as an instant action. The mage can take enough spell factor penalties to push themselves down to -5 and then automatically succeed thanks to their boon.

Cost of the above: 1 Mana, assuming no exceptional success occurs.

~

Scenario C: The mage is in a tense scenario and would like to cast an extremely powerful spell, not necessarily a Fate spell. However, they have two turns (six seconds) of prep time, possibly because they are not actually in combat.

Step #1: Cast Exceptional Luck. One Reach for instant action casting, one Reach for Advanced Duration, two Reaches to affect spellcasting. Mudra Yantra.
Dice pool: Gnosis 2 + Fate 2 + Mudra 5 = 9 dice, for a ~78.69% chance of regular success and a ~17.27% chance of exceptional success.
Result: Potency 2 Exceptional Luck lasting for an hour, affecting spellcasting. Allocated to 9-again or chance-die-to-regular-die on the next dice roll and the Steadfast Condition.

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>>48537926

Step #2: Cast Exceptional Luck. One Reach for instant action casting, one Reach for Advanced Duration, two Reaches to affect spellcasting. Mudra Yantra. -10 spell factor to improve to Potency 7, -4 spell factor for three turn duration.
Dice pool: Gnosis 2 + Fate 2 + Mudra 5 - spell factors 14 = -5 dice, turned into an automatic success by the previous boon.
Result: Potency 7 Exceptional Luck lasting for three turns, affecting spellcasting. Allocated to 9-again or chance-die-to-regular-die on the next dice roll, the Steadfast Condition, and a +5 bonus to the mage's next five spellcasting rolls.

Step #3: Dismiss the first instance of Exceptional Luck.

Step #4: Cast a spell as an instant action. The mage can take enough spell factor penalties to push themselves down to -5 and then automatically succeed thanks to their boon, and the +5 bonus to spellcasting gives them even greater leeway.

Cost of the above: Two turns.

~

Scenario D: The mage is in a tense scenario and would like to inflict premeditated murder upon someone. They have no prep time at all; they are embroiled in combat and need to inflict murder right here, right now.

Step #1: Cast Exceptional Luck. Two Reaches and 1 Mana for reflexive action casting, one Reach for Advanced Duration, one Reach for Advanced Potency. Mudra Yantra.
Dice pool: Gnosis 2 + Fate 2 + Mudra 5 = 9 dice, for a ~78.69% chance of regular success and a ~17.27% chance of exceptional success.
Result: Potency 2 Exceptional Luck lasting for an hour. Allocated to 9-again or chance-die-to-regular-die on the next dice roll and the Steadfast Condition.

>>48537885
It can be any animal feature for a predatory animal. They have one to start out with, and gain one each time they frenzy depending on the rules (sometimes the frenzy ones are permanent, sometimes temporary,but you always have your one). There are things like permanent (but blunt and non-combat) claws, bat ears, bat nose, animal eyes...

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>>48537944

Step #2: Cast Exceptional Luck. Two Reaches and 1 Mana for reflexive action casting, one Reach for Advanced Duration, one Reach for Advanced Potency. Mudra Yantra. -4 spell factor to improve to Potency 4.
Dice pool: Gnosis 2 + Fate 2 + Mudra 5 - spell factor 4 = 5 dice, for an ~81.17% chance of regular success and a ~2.02% chance of exceptional success
Result: Potency 4 Exceptional Luck lasting for an hour. Allocated to +4 bonus to next four [Athletics, Brawl, Firearms, or Weaponry] rolls.

Step #3: The mage commits premeditated murder and provokes an Act of Hubris.

Step #4: Even if the Storyteller levies penalties that reduce the mage's dice pool for degeneration down to -5, the first Exceptional Luck's boon transforms the roll into an automatic success, preventing Wisdom loss. As a cherry on top, "Any time your character risks Wisdom degeneration, she gains an Arcane Beat. Exploring the depths of hubris can be enlightening."

~~~

I do think that the above is enough to warrant the replacement of Steadfast in Fate boons with something more reasonable. After all, the above requires only Gnosis 2 and Fate 2, nothing more.

>>48537885

There's a whole bloodline of Gangrel who live in the ocean and adopt shark features as they age.

>>48537898

Nobody wants you here. Please post this on the official forums if you absolutely have to post it anywhere.

>>48537901
... Can they reach that far back in time to do something like that?
Because if so I would gladly go full on dinosaur-vampire.

>>48537898
Fuck off and die you absolute faggoty double nigger.

>>48537963
>>48537944
>>48537926
>>48537912
>>48537898
>Brandishes houserules.
Begone creature! Back to the foul pit from whence you came!

>>48537967
>full on dinosaur-vampire.
I love everything about this idea.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a24m9Z6LeY

>>48537964
I'll take someone who contributes over your whiny ass any day. You're the one who should leave.

>>48537898
Please leave.

I don't like that the ST I game with has given practically every vampire clan the option for sorcery. It takes away from the Tremere when any other clan can pop out a blood wizard.... Even if they are supposedly 'rare'.

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>>48537986

House rules are one possible fix. Official errata would be even better, if the Mage development team is intent on repairing the game's flaw.

I should also add that Steadfast should not just change for Fate boons, but for all spells as well, since the creative thaumaturgy subsystem arguably allows for a two-dot Ruling spell to create Steadfast.

>>48538059
I was making a reference to Atlantis:TLA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T2luwLcfeg

While the concept might fit MtAw, I can see it being more of a Hunter game with some loose connections to Atlantis. Also Rourke would be a pretty good Gangrel

>"I consider myself an even-tempered man; it takes a hell of a lot to get under my skin. But congratulations—you just won the solid gold Kewpie doll!"

>>48538047
>contribution
How is rules autism contribution?

>>48538156
>Pointing out rules that can potentially be abused is bad
Are you retarded?

>>48538220
With a shit ST maybe.

>>48538047
>>48538220
>Expecting a game to be impossible to abuse.
>Implying anybody who pulls this kind of shit would even be able to stay in a game long enough to reach this Gnosis 2, Fate 2 requirement, without the other players kicking them out for all this autistic rules-lawyering long beforehand
>Implying it's an issue that a player can potentially make themselves auto-succeed on an attack spell by spending a mana and succeeding on a roll that they have no guarantee of success on as a reflexive action.

The abuse has been strongly curbed, with the Errata. At this point, he's basically just pointing out that the spell is capable of doing what its designed to do.

>>48538376
While before he pointed out cadaverous heaps of rules-bending and literally read stuff, here he doesn't do any of it. It's a rather straightforwardly used spell, just written out -very- meticulously and rigorously to illuminate his point.

>>48538047
I probably wouldn't mind if it wasn't for his obnoxious avatar-fagging.

>>48538376
Or an ST who doesn't know of this issue to begin with.

>>48538427
>Expecting a game to be impossible to abuse
Pointing out a game's problems isn't expecting it to be flawless, you fucking dumbass.

>Implying anybody who pulls this kind of shit would even be able to stay in a game long enough to reach this Gnosis 2, Fate 2 requirement, without the other players kicking them out for all this autistic rules-lawyering long beforehand
>Throwing people out for using a prewritten spell

>Implying it's an issue that a player can potentially make themselves auto-succeed on an attack spell by spending a mana and succeeding on a roll that they have no guarantee of success on as a reflexive action
Yes, it is an issue for a 2 dot spell, especially since something like this is only encountered in one Arcana.

This entire post is a pinnacle of developer dick sucking. You went from "games aren't flawless" to "not a problem at my table" and finally to "this isn't a problem at all". If you move the goalposts any further you'll make a full circle, and none of it even proves that what was said is somehow wrong.

>>48538427
>The abuse has been strongly curbed, with the Errata.
No it hasn't.

Not again

Regarding Forces ●●● "Gravitic Supremacy", what could be some sort of guideline regarding what "real-life" numbers that effect would boil down to? What's the potency to make an area with Jupiter's gravity, or something?

The -effect- balance-wise, as it is, is fine and dandy, but it only effects "actors" in the scene (modifying their effective attributes, Speed, and such) and isn't really conducive to interesting things that logically should be able to be done with it.

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>>48538059
Conditions have been addressed already.
In brief, they fall in the same category as the p91 box on crossovers, in that it's up to the individual storytellers.
>We’re not prepared to publish a full breakdown of the different Chronicles of Darkness characters and how they appear to Mage Sight, for two reasons. First, it’s simply impractical and we have better uses for the page count. But second and more importantly, the kind of interpretation that such a discussion would entail is a perfect Mystery for a cabal of mages.
The same argument applies.

That said, Steadfast could do with some clarification as the first use is done after the roll and the second is done during. You can't autosucceed on a dramatic die. If your ST cares about the minutia of wording, applying a 9-again boon only TREATS the chance die as a regular die, but does not replace it with a regular die like Steadfast's second use does. The autosuccess use of Steadfast requires that it be a failed regular roll, not a failed dramatic die, treated as a single regular die.

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>>48538762

The Fate-user is opting to activate this effect first:
>If used on a chance roll, the subject does not gain the 9-Again quality, but the chance die is treated as a single die instead of as a chance die.

The mage is then activating this if the die fails:
>When you’ve failed a roll, you may choose to resolve this Condition to instead treat the action as if you’d rolled a single success.

The third sentence of the Steadfast Condition's description is irrelevant, because the Fate boon had been used beforehand to treat the roll as a single regular die. Steadfast is brought in only afterwards.

>>48538543
>>Throwing people out for using a prewritten spell
>Not throwing people out for stopping the flow of the game to break out the books and their tablet so they can prove that the dev said that THIS IS CORRECT GUYS STOP TRYING TO STOP ME FROM HAVING FUN LET ME ABUSE THE RULES

>Yes, it is an issue for a 2 dot spell, especially since something like this is only encountered in one Arcana.
Fate isn't the only Arcana that can give conditions. It has the easier time with it, because that's literally its job, but you can give conditions with EVERY Arcana
Steadfast could be given with Mind just as easily, Life could give you bonuses/dice tricks to physical actions, Prime could probably give you bonuses/dice tricks to spells

>"not a problem at my table"
I never made this argument

>none of it even proves that what was said is somehow wrong.
His points aren't wrong, that's totally possible
But the example he's giving is unlikely to happen in a real game

He's basically saying "this extremely hypothetical situation which has never happened and might not ever happen is a problem that is actively ruining the game because i noticed that there is a potential for it to happen if the ST is a push-over"

>>48538560
It has. Before, he would have gone on for several more posts pointing out a ton of issues with other spells, but most of the abuse potential has been nipped out by Errata.
Even with just Exceptional Luck, the thing he was previously making the biggest deal about and constantly repeating, giving yourself increasingly huge bonuses, has been nipped by the hard cap of +5 from mudras.

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>>48538759
Spellcasting is focused on intent. If the intent is to "change the area to Jupiter's gravity", then it's up to the group to figure out what exactly that will do.
If the intent is to drag everyone down to earth, then the spell gives you the mechanical implications.

Remember, physics is part of the Lie and Gravitic Supremacy is just an example of what Weaving Forces accomplishes. What you CAN do is spelled out under Weaving. If you want an itemized list of what you can do to carry with you into problems, you're making unnecessary work for yourself.

Spellcasting always starts with declaring intent. It literally spells out
>Don’t focus on how the magic will do what you want for now, just focus on what you want it to do.

>>48538841
>boon had been used beforehand to treat the roll as a single regular die
>treat
>not replace with
That's the whole argument. It's dumb and petty and only useful for shutting down rules lawyers at the table.
>You rolled the die and it was treated as a regular die, but it still WAS a dramatic die, so you should have popped Steadfast earlier. The Acamoth eats your dreams.

>>48538939
>I never made this argument
To expand on this, what I *was* saying is, the kind of rules-lawyering you have to do to realize this kind of shit is possible will get you kicked out of most groups, because it breaks the flow of the game and leads to arguments and basically ruins the fun
The kind of person who actually tries to do this kind of bullshit in a game is the kind of person who doesn't understand the golden rule of "above all, have fun", and thus the kind of person most people won't want to play with for very long after they try this shit

How many times am I going to have to tell you people to just talk about other things? You knew he was coming back because of the errata, and he's not going to leave. How do you people keep falling into this hole?

>>48538953
>You rolled the die and it was treated as a regular die, but it still WAS a dramatic die, so you should have popped Steadfast earlier
That's just your interpretation of the particular rule, another ST might think otherwise. If only there was some kind of way to make this issue immediately and unquestionably clear for everybody at the table...

>>48539020
It's not an issue for all STs. See the stance on conditions and crossovers.

So, let's talk GenCon. Whose going? What do you think's getting announced? Are you excited that the Hunter submissions you wrote will finally be judged next month?

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>>48538939

>Steadfast could be given
That is why I point out in >>48538059 that Steadfast should not just change for Fate boons, but for spellcasting globally.

>It has. Before, he would have gone on for several more posts pointing out a ton of issues with other spells, but most of the abuse potential has been nipped out by Errata.
Space 1's The Outward and Inward Eye is still ambiguous in a critically important fashion, Time 2's Veil of Moments is system-breaking by raw, and Time 4's Prophecy completely destroys Social maneuvering.

>>48538953

>You rolled the die and it was treated as a regular die, but it still WAS a dramatic die
The chance die is being treated as a regular die. There is no evidence that supports "the chance die is treated as a single die instead of as a chance die" being selective in such a virtual replacement.

>>48539000
>trips
It is law


So, how would you guys react if a player brought a character to the table with a built-in personal Mystery that is linked directly to them?
My specific thought is something like Penny from The Magicians; a character who seemingly randomly teleports to other places, when in reality he's unwittingly casting spells to teleport himself to wherever he's thinking about at random points in time.(Obviously, he'd have to be a Mastigos with Space 3, at the least)

>>48539082
Will Secrets of the Covenants ever be released?

>>48539067

I'm really bummed that I can't make it out this year because a ton of cool stuff is going on; fingers crossed for next year. I think we're looking at a Dark Eras 2 and some more concrete Deviant news.

Scared shitless about my submission though.

>>48539082
>built-in personal Mystery

Isn't that what your Obsessions are supposed to be, a ready-made plot hook for your ST? I've got a Guardian obsessed with discovering her own past lives.

>>48539099
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXe-5mUeLC8
>>48539121
I see most people interpreting it as just 'a specific Mystery you're obsessed with, not necessarily remotely connected to you at all'

Whats a good tetriary arcanum for an obrimos?

>>48539154
Any

There's no good way to answer that question more specifically without knowing more about your character/the game you're playing in

>>48539154
Fate 2, get Exceptional Luck.

>>48539074
I recommend you take your argument to the OP forums. It's more likely to be seen by Dave, and thus receive actual credence/lead to further errata or fixing.

>>48537912
>>48537926
>>48537944
>>48537963
>>48538059
What even is the point of you repeating this ad nauseum?
>I do think that the above is enough to warrant the replacement of Steadfast in Fate boons with something more reasonable
The difference is that no one else does.

>>48537986
It doesn't even require houserules. This is a situation that only comes up if you force it to come up.

>>48538220
>>48538047
>>48538543
Saying something he's said before and that no one really agrees with him on is not really contributing. There are far more ridiculous--and equally kick-worthy--shenanigans you can get up with without even using Fate. I'm sure he's willing to tell us some that he's noticed, or at least thinks exist.
I'm also pretty sure that this doesn't work the way that he thinks it does, which I'm pretty sure someone pointed out to him on the forums, but he ignored.

>>48539074
It's not really that ambiguous, you just treat it as if it were because you like to weasel and cheat. You're a rules lawyer, so anything that isn't written in legalese you treat as ambiguous. You feel that all conversation should be treated as if no one is going to cooperate with what's stated. You basically ignore the Gricean Maxims and think everything should be written for robots.
And, ironically, you feel that way precisely because you will bend the rules over backwards if you have any opportunity. If there's the slightest implication that you *can* do something, you will. You can't play a game normally, you have to break it.

>>48538998
This is basically the core of it. Whether it's in the rules or not, it's the kind of thing that requires a complicated multistep process that quite a few GMs are going to disallow, for the same reason they'd disallow breaking the economy of D&D with magic item creation instead of actually playing the game.

>>48538841
If you activate one of the effects, the Condition is resolved and goes away. This isn't Magic. There is no triggered ability placed on the stack. That does not work the way that you are implying it does, there is no reason to assume that it would, there is no indication that it would. You are arguing for the sake of argument, and in all likelihood you either know that you are not arguing in good faith or are simply incredibly misinformed about how this game works.

>>48539121
>I'm really bummed that I can't make it out this year
I could have gone, but I wasn't willing to GM six Pathfinder modules at last minute for the first time in over a year.

>>48539166
Read the comic for Storm Front and Fool Moon instead of the books. Then again, I'm the kind of person who hates missing out on story, so that's just me. You could skip it no problem.

>>48539644
>No one agrees that this is a problem (except for the people that do) so that means the problem doesn't exist!
Okay.

>>48538953
>Spellcasting is focused on intent. If the intent is to "change the area to Jupiter's gravity", then it's up to the group to figure out what exactly that will do.
>If the intent is to drag everyone down to earth, then the spell gives you the mechanical implications.
>Don’t focus on how the magic will do what you want for now, just focus on what you want it to do.

So what, if I intend to make an area of higher gravity and I don't make the imago in terms of how I want to affect people, but in terms of what celestial object's gravity I want to emulate, I only need 1 success to create it? What if I wanted a zone of Sirius gravity instead?

I am not asking what that will -do-, I am asking how to -get- there.

>>48539779
The people who agree that it's a problem mostly seem to be doing so because people are telling Touhou to get out, and they want to be contrarian. I honestly doubt most of them could actually explain what the problem is, to be honest, and if they tried it in a game they'd likely tell the ST something totally works that clearly doesn't.

Which is, of course, why it's not a problem.

>>48539879
>Okay, I admit that there are people who agree that it's a problem, but they're just contrarian!
Keep moving those goalposts my man.

>>48539716
>If you activate one of the effects
The spell stays.

The spell vanishes only when the codition resolves.

>>48537885
I want to fuck a cute Gangrel. Any tips? How do you approach one without startling her or causing her to attack?

>>48540202

Present yourself as prey.

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Gehenna when??

>>48540232
Do cute Gangrel girls prefer outdoorsy types as prey, or hapless city slickers out of their element?

>>48539909
People who use the phrase "moving the goalposts" are often idiots who force people to use small words because they can't understand figurative language.
Do you really think that when someone says "no one cares" that they literally believe no one in the entire world cares? I'm aware there are people who agree that it's a problem. I just don't give a flying fuck because most of them seem to know nothing beyond "it's a problem!" and can't actually explain *WHY* its a problem.

>>48540100
This isn't Magic. You don't activate an ability, put it on the stack, and wait for it to resolve. At best there are reflexive actions that let you interrupt another action. When you "pop" the Condition, that's it, it goes away. You don't get to use Steadfast to treat a chance die as a regular die and then gain a single success on that die.
For fucks sake it literally says INSTEAD. As in, if this condition is met, you do this, not that. If it is a chance die, you literally cannot use the ability to give yourself an instant success. It does not work that way, period.

Which is, again, why I don't care about people who agree with Touhou. None of them even understand what he's trying to argue, and what he's trying to argue isn't even right.

Snake ghouls: yea or nay?

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>>48540303
nay

>>48540390
How do I horse pussy in CofD?

>>48540441
Purified

>>48540280
>There are people who agree that it's a problem, but I just don't care!
It was explained why it's a problem: it's too strong for its level. The spells allows you to boost all of your other magic to otherwise impractical levels and succeed without even having to roll dice. And that's with a 2 dot spell that doesn't have anything comparable to it in any other Arcana. But it wasn't explained why that's not a problem, though. Ignoring it is neither a solution nor an explanation, by the way.

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Anyone have the V20 Ready Made Characters?

Could i use a knowing forces spell to get exactly how long a fire has before it burns out?

>>48540585
yes

>>48540468
It literally does not work the way that he thinks it does.

>>48540585
>>48540609
Knowing Matter, too

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>>48540469
https://www.sendspace.com/file/onk5cp

Ive seen a few trailers for stranger things,is it as WoD as it looks?

>>48536016
>which were like evil Scion.
what? I remember the antagonist section being full of weird monsters. Dragons and megaladons and giants and even angels from this one guy.

>>48540468

New Anon here. I was going to jump in on this argument, but in a way, it is both too early and too late to discuss it.

A few threads ago I made a big deal of trying to get DaveB to answer if we could contribute to that discussion of "hacks" that we thought would make Mage 2e better. He heavily implied that it wouldn't make a difference.

So how about we wait and see what changes the final version makes, and if it doesn't fix the balance between Arcana, I will gladly brainstorm with you about what can be done about it?

>>48540949
Not so much.
It's very CofD though.

>>48536016

I'll be there if you can make it last. All my Scion threads have died.

Whoever publishes Vampire these days does not want or care about new players.

DnD has this down to a science: you've got a starter set, free basic rules, a very nice book for around 25-30 bucks on Amazon. Say what you will about 5e, but they have made it very accessible to anyone who wants to pick up that game can do so and get a lot of content for a decent price.

With VtM, they fucked it all up. Now, you have two Vampire the games (which, thankfully, they are trying to fix) so you'll have people buying VtR when they really want VtM and vice versa.

Then you have the fact that it is literally impossible to buy a new VtM game at a bookstore or gamestore. Hell, when I was starting out I had to make due with a used Revised rulebook. If you want the newest VtM rules in a book of similar quality to the 5e rulebooks you have to pay a hundred fucking dollars plus shipping *and* wait two weeks for them to print and ship it.

I actually really like the new anniversary editions of WoD, but they fucked up so bad by pulling the Kickstarter deluxe card paired with the print-on-demand option. I'm sure it does well for them as a business, but jesus christ I cannot think of a worse model for enticing new players.

>>48540673
>It literally does not work the way that he thinks it does.
In what way does it not work the way he thinks it does?

>>48541270

It's a 25 year old game primarily marketed as a nostalgia product. Very few people are getting into WoD; the anniversary edition stuff is aimed at longtime fans.

CofD is there for the new players and has simpler rules and no decades of metaplot to catch up to.

>>48541270
They literally renamed nWoD into CofD to avoid confusing new players, and they've got cheaper PDF versions, including the recently Humble Bundle.

I think they very much care about new players, it's just their working with some fairly hefty constraints. Please remember you're talking about a 25 year old game.

>>48541040

Shit, I think you're right. I might have just been thinking of one specific kind of Titanspawn.

>>48541127

I'll keep it in mind then. I should also probably get around to writing an FAQ for this general.

>>48541334
>>48541317

It helps to remember that there's two "owners" of the various properties. While Onyx Path only licenses the IP from Paradox, they might as well be the de facto owners of the CofD and Exalted properties. White Wolf AB doesn't really seem to care much about anything besides WoD on a business level.

Can a Nagaraja eat human flesh that has been cooked?

Did hurt locker ever get released?

>>48541717
It says raw flesh.
Cooked isn't raw. Well... Mostly.

>>48541764
According to last week's Monday Meeting Notes, it's in Art Direction.
http://theonyxpath.com/buttons-and-bows-monday-meeting-notes/

>>48541280
Primarily? Steadfast doesn't work the way he's arguing it does. There was also errata that says no to adding Mudra bonuses over 5, which prevents the thing he keeps harping on.
More than that, it works (insofar as it does) by having an incredibly in depth knowledge of the system and assuming the ST will roll with that "because the book says". Which is really just poor form to start from in any discussion of mechanics. It's not a thing you can just stumble into.

>>48541270
>This larger company with better resources is able to do things SO much better than this essentially indie company!
The reason you can't buy V20 in a store is because they literally cannot afford to do that.

>>48541764

Not yet. A lot of some seems to have slowed down before Gen Con; it's that way for most RPG companies.

>>48541802
>Steadfast doesn't work the way he's arguing it does.
You need to be a little more specific, because I'm not seeing it. How doesn't steadfast work the way he's arguing it does?

>>48541317
CofD also doesn't have the name recognition that WoD has, at least in terms of Vampire.

Also, you say:
>Very few people are getting into WoD

Might that be because it's literally impossible to buy an affordable copy of one of the rulebooks?

I don't buy the 'nostalgia product' bit either. DnD has been around for 42 years and, while it has a much bigger name attached than Vampire: The Masquerade, they take the steps I listed above to make sure they get new players coming in. There's no reason VtM can't do the same.

>>48541334
>They literally renamed nWoD into CofD to avoid confusing new players
I said as much in my post, though I suspect the name change was more due to pressure by WW.

>they've got cheaper PDF versions, including the recently Humble Bundle
PDF versions may be fine for role playing vets looking to try every system that comes out, or for quick little rulesets, but your average consumer who wants to play a tabletop RPG is going to want a physical book.

>Please remember you're talking about a 25 year old game.
You say that, and yet 3.5 is currently one of the most popular, best-selling systems in the world. Hell, the Tunnels and Trolls relaunch had better logistics than recent WoD.

>>48541870
>DnD has been around for 42 years and, while it has a much bigger name attached than Vampire: The Masquerade, they take the steps

I'm gonna call bullshit on this one. People aren't walking out and buying AD&D books off the shelves; they're buying 5th Edition. Each edition of D&D is practically a standalone game and has the same gulf of mechanical difference that WoD and CofD have if not greater.

>>48541317
I don't get why my friend won't play it and he went straight for WoD.

He's an older guy who browses rpg.net and for some reason he's got it in his head that CofD is the most broken system ever or something (but not in the way 2hu does)

>>48542001
Well there's your reason.
Also quite possibly because he's older, and was around when VtM came out and/or sees the comparative lack of concrete mythos in CofD as a failing compared to WoD's very definite metaplot.

>>48541861
His argument is that you can take a chance roll and use Steadfast to give it a single success. That isn't how Steadfast works. You gain a single success on a failed roll, OR if the roll is a chance die, you can roll it as a normal roll. One or the other. Not both.

>>48541870
>Might that be because it's literally impossible to buy an affordable copy of one of the rulebooks?
It's about 60$. JUST the Player's Handbook is 50$, and you'd need the Dungeon Master's Guide as well.
>There's no reason VtM can't do the same.
Is "the fact that they are not financially capable of doing that" no reason?

>PDF versions may be fine for role playing vets looking to try every system that comes out, or for quick little rulesets, but your average consumer who wants to play a tabletop RPG is going to want a physical book.
I disagree. In fact, I disagree so strongly that I'm pretty sure the reality is the exact opposite. More casual people want the cheaper easier to use format, while core hobbyists want the nice coffee table piece or something to go on their shelf. Casual fans would rather have something to read on their phone or tablet or laptop that can be searched.

In fact, that's true of most people that I know.

>>48542001
Well he's an idiot.

>>48542149
>His argument is that you can take a chance roll and use Steadfast to give it a single success.
If you knew how to read, you'd know that this isn't the case.

>>48537912
>Allocated to 9-again or chance-die-to-regular-die on the next dice roll and the Steadfast Condition.
>>48537926
>Allocated to 9-again or chance-die-to-regular-die on the next dice roll and the Steadfast Condition.
>>48537944
>Allocated to 9-again or chance-die-to-regular-die on the next dice roll and the Steadfast Condition.

The chance die is converted into a regular die, and then Steadfast is activated for an auto success.

>>48542284
What a shocker, Aspel didn't read the argument and just got shitty to be shitty.

>>48542284
>>48542530
Okay. You're right, these aren't the same arguments he was making last time.
These are even dumber, because they effectively say "Exceptional Luck can make you exceptionally lucky!". It also relies on a ridiculous amount of Reach, and if used repeatedly, a lot of mana as well, though I can already hear the arguments of "just buy the Hallow merit and an Artifact and you'll never have to worry about Mana, because if the game lets you purchase something the ST has to allow it". To which I say shut up, stop acting like you should be allowed to get your way no matter what and that the game is simply filled with numbers and not actual consequences.

The only thing close to an argument I'm seeing here is this one >>48537963 which also relies on the ST allowing you to just get away with whatever you want. That goes back to the "sit in your Sanctum cutting yourself and then use Steadfast to succeed your derangement roll" argument, where the game is turned into an MMO where you sit around grinding instead of actually playing the game, begging the question "why are you playing this game at all if you just want to sit around abusing the system instead of actually playing".

But here it is. I've found the post where he argues Steadfast can give autosuccess to a Chance Die. >>48538841
This is also the one I replied to originally pointing out that it doesn't work that way >>48539716 (though I could have been more clear; this is magic. This isn't Magic: the Gathering).

You're right, though, maybe that wasn't what he was saying. It's difficult to parse him.

But regardless of his particular arguments, most of it is completely meaningless jerking off with the argument that the system is somehow broken for not being able to survive being hit with a hammer.

>>48541270
>new players
>Buying physical sourcebooks
Pick one.

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>>48540262
Depends, some like to play with their prey but only if they're decent enough to provide a bit of interest.

If you're just stupid they'll kill you
If you're too good they'll get competitive and kill you
Gotta go slightly clueless but surprising when it counts.

>>48542149
>More casual people want the cheaper easier to use format,
More casual people don't know that DTRPG is a thing.

>>48542806
And how often do you have this little chat with him, Doug? How many times have you and touhou done the run around and how many more times are you going to bitch about his character molesting yours?

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>>48542806
>These are even dumber, because they effectively say "Exceptional Luck can make you exceptionally lucky!".
Jesus christ.

>It also relies on a ridiculous amount of Reach
No it doesn't. Having it as a rote gives you 4 Reach. He never goes over 4 Reach in any of the examples.

>a lot of mana as well
Again, no. You won't be in the situations that in his examples require mana often, and not using mana will suffice for most purposes as well, and you never spend more than 2 Mana in any of those situations. Also, you can get 3 Mana back by Scouring your pattern, and you can do this every day, and then there are Oblations, exceptional successes, and all sorts of other shit that lets you get mana back.

I don't even know what the rest of your autistic post is trying to say, it's difficult to parse you.

>>48542806
Saw this post on the front page.

Familiars are an insanely good way to get mana back.

Two dots for Channel Essence and you can have borderline infinite mana.

Essence fountain it's literally infinite, but at that point you're spending enough XP that you probably should use other methods if you aren't a spirit mage.

>>48542971
How many times do you have this little creepy stalkery moment?

>>48542906
Casual people don't go to dedicated specialty stores. Checkmate.

>>48542991
>Jesus christ.
Then tell me what his argument is. Tell me why I should give a shit. Tell me why this should be changed.

>you never spend more than 2 Mana in any of those situations. Also, you can get 3 Mana back by Scouring your pattern, and you can do this every day
Have you ever actually played the game or what? This gets into arguing as if you've always got exactly what you need no matter what and you're never ever challenged for resources.

>I don't even know what the rest of your autistic post is trying to say, it's difficult to parse you.
Parse deez nuts, because no one actually gives a shit about this argument. It's asinine and pointless, and is the kind of shit come up with by people who don't actually play the fucking game.

>>48543041
This is basically the same argument for why you can make infinite money in D&D with magic item creation.
God I would hate playing with people from these threads. The whole game would apparently be spent abusing the lack of diminishing return rules to get infinite mana and infinite experience and infinite everything except for fun.

>>48540262
Cute Gangrel girls are not a monolith. There are plenty of cute Gangrel girls who prefer the challenge of stalking and hunting a man who knows his way around their forests, but just as many cute Gangrel girls like to punish pathetic city boys who don't even know how to break in their boots or to bring enough water and a flashlight with them.

I would recommend figuring out if you actually have a cute Gangrel girl or if you actually have a werewolf or koldunic qt before deciding how to proceed, though.

>>48540303
Probably nay. Snakes are actually incredibly chill, lazy animals. I'm not sure how useful they would be.

>>48542906
If you google a game you want to play, the link is usually on the first page.

>>48543092
It's... not really abuse, angry bro.

Familiars can give you their essence and you receive it as mana. That's a core part of the rules.

Fill the familiar up with essence and it can give you mana.

It's, like...

a basic intended function of the system, friend.

>>48543092
Wow, Aspel is particularly grumpy today. Did his mom turn off the power again?

>>48543092
>Then tell me what his argument is. Tell me why this should be changed.
For the third and last time, Exceptional Luck is overpowered. It makes every other 2 dot spell pale in comparison to what it can do.

>This gets into arguing as if you've always got exactly what you need no matter what and you're never ever challenged for resources.
I'm not sure what your problem with Scouring is, but I hardly even need a Hallow because of it. I get by without using Mana because I mainly rely on my Ruling Arcana, and I rely on my Ruling Arcana because my mage is too low exp to have any non-Ruling Arcana at a particularly useful dot rating. There is like one spell that requires Mana expenditure, but I don't use it that often and I have it as a Praxis, so sometimes I don't even spend the Mana.

>Y-You don't even play the game!
Yeah, you're done.

>>48543248
>There is like one spell that requires Mana expenditure
In my ruling Arcana, that is.

>>48543248
>It makes every other 2 dot spell pale in comparison to what it can do.

What about Psychic Domination, where you can make someone kill themselves at two dots?

Or drop their spells.

Beat their grandmother.

Whatever, really.

>>48543248
>>48543363
Or what about Hung spell? Only Time 2 and you can load up rituals in there and release it with a reflexive action.

>>48543125
"Infinite mana" is pretty abusive.

>>48543248
>For the third and last time, Exceptional Luck is overpowered. It makes every other 2 dot spell pale in comparison to what it can do.
No it isn't. Exceptional Luck can, when used as in these examples, give you a single success even if you're at -5.
Other two dot spells let you reshape liquid, transform your features, turn invisible, interact with ghosts, control various forces, protect myself from caustic chemicals, fire, ghosts, mind control, etcetera, control the mind or body of other living beings, imbue my words with bone-deep Truth, view far away locations, command spirits, and even cheat my way out of metaphysical contracts.
Forgive me if "you can autosucceed!" doesn't have me freaking out. Yes, it probably shouldn't allow you to use it on Spellcasting rolls, and I don't feel you should be able to effectively get Steadfast twice. But it is far, *far* from cause for concern at the level that Touhou and others have been clinging to it.

>I'm not sure what your problem with Scouring is
It's not that scouring is a problem. It's that you're arguing that the thing the setting considers as a scarce resource should be easy to get because you can just do this or that thing that is mechanically simple but narratively should be treated with a little more care.
For instance just focusing on scouring, that's like stabbing yourself in the thigh every two days in exchange for a ten dollar bill.

>>48543363
B-but it gives you an autosuccess! That makes it the most broken!

>>48543363
It's Withstood.

Though, if you back it up with Exceptional Luck, there's pretty much nothing out there that can Withstand it because of how much Potency you can pump into it without a chance of failing the spell.

>>48543534
You can set potency to 6, impossible to resist unless you have 6+ stats, for only -6. That's really easy to offset, and you don't even really -need- to put it that high.

>>48541945
The fact is, if somebody wants to play DnD they absolutely can. You can't say the same with V20. I don't buy the whole thing about the rules being old, or the publisher being too small.

Also, hilariously I *do* see AD&D and 2e books at my local bookstores and game stores. WotC published reprints - affordable reprints - and they are doing quite well.

>>48542149
>It's about 60$. JUST the Player's Handbook is 50$, and you'd need the Dungeon Master's Guide as well.
You don't need a DMG to play DnD, only the DM does. A newbie group only needs to spend 13 dollars for the starter set on Amazon and, if they want more, it's less than 30 dollars for a PHB and like 20 some odd dollars for a cheaper used DMG. This is all for the newest edition.

>Is "the fact that they are not financially capable of doing that" no reason?
They're not financially capable of putting an RPG to print without it being on PoD? I think they absolutely are, it's not like OP is just handling WoD on their own anymore. If they and the IP owners wanted to they could easily put the V20 core rulebook to print and ship it to specialty stores. Easily. Small house publishers with no large financial backing whatsoever do this all the time.

>>48543558

Yes, and WotC is also drowning in disgusting amounts of MtG money. OPP has like three permanent employees. It isn't really comparable.

>>48543552
A Prime mage can pump their Withstood rating at will with Wards and Signs. But that's not going to save them against EL unless the Prime mage in question also used EL to pump the Potency of their Wards and Signs to an otherwise unlikely extreme.

>>48543558
>You can't say the same with V20. I don't buy the whole thing about the rules being old, or the publisher being too small.
You absolutely can say the same thing about V20. But, again, the publisher is small. There are hundreds or even thousands of books that you'll never see in an actual store simply because the publisher can't afford to go that route.

>You don't need a DMG to play DnD, only the DM does. A newbie group only needs to spend 13 dollars for the starter set on Amazon and, if they want more, it's less than 30 dollars for a PHB and like 20 some odd dollars for a cheaper used DMG. This is all for the newest edition.
The PHB is necessary, the DMG is necessary. That's close to 100$ right there to play D&D. You can find it on Amazon easier because more copies physically exist in the world. You can also find a copy of VtM for like 12$. You can't find a cheap copy of the Anniversary Edition because *it wasn't supposed to be cheap*. Or, you could just buy the PDF. Which most new players are going to prefer.

You're arguing here while ignoring the reality of the situation or understanding what things are for.

>I think they absolutely are
I'm going to be honest here, it doesn't matter what you think.

>>48543558
>only the DM does.
Not even that, really. You can technically play any edition of D&D past 1e with only the PHB.

Anybody have any general advice for building a Toreador for the BNS edition of MET VtM LARP? Are there any traps or must-have options? I know the STs have banned some of the OP merits and weirdo bloodlines so I don't expect to be thrown into a pit of minmax powergamers, but still, I don't want to make a useless dude.

>>48544042
>MET VtM LARP

If you're not besties with the ST I doubt you'll get to do anything interesting anyways. Unless they do some ritual RP hazing of your character.

>>48543686
It doesn't much matter what you think either by that merit.

>>48544082
That's true, but what I think is what the company has said themselves. What you (or that anon) says is basically conjecture.

>>48544064
They seem like a fairly reasonable bunch of adults, it doesn't feel like it's going to be that bad. And I'm going with a couple of people I know so at the very least we can hang out in one corner drinking Clamatto and pretending to be too cool for everyone else.

>>48543578
OPP isn't really the big guy in this picture, White Wolf is. And I know damn well their previous owner could have afforded to print those books if they wanted to and I know for a fact that Paradox can, though I doubt highly that they will print any books for the WoD line outside of LARP stuff.

>You absolutely can say the same thing about V20.
Bullshit. If someone wants to go play DnD it's like 13-25 bucks on Amazon. The equivalent to V20 is 100 dollars.

>I'm going to be honest here, it doesn't matter what you think.
I await any evidence you have that WW cannot afford to pay for books to be printed.

>>48544212
>I await any evidence you have that WW cannot afford to pay for books to be printed.
White Wolf will print VtM4. But they don't really care about Exalted or CofD.
Onyx Path on the other hand has repeatedly said that they can't afford to.
> The equivalent to V20 is 100 dollars.
It's 50$ for a PoD copy and currently only 5$ for the PDF, usually 30$.
Most people are not buying hardcover books. That is not what the casual consumer is purchasing. I'm pretty sure you can get that kind of statistic from DrivethruRPG.

>>48544286
I suspect that they could have afforded to, had WW's parent company fronted the cash. That they didn't want to is very telling about how they viewed the brand.

>That is not what the casual consumer is purchasing.
Citation needed. Also, the 50 dollar PoD books from DTRPG suck ass. 100 dollars is the equivalent to most good-tier RPG books.

>White Wolf will print VtM4.
Sometimes they say they are, sometimes they say they aren't. I hope you are right.

I've been watching Dexter, and I can't help but wonder who he would be in CofD. Lone Iron Master, member of a lodge with criminals as their Sacred Prey? Slasher? Anakim Punisher?

>>48544401
A normal, garden variety psychopath

>>48544401
Just a mortal without an integrity check for murder.

>>48544346
>Citation needed
I want you to cite why you think the casual consumer is going to buy a more expensive hardcopy over the much cheaper and easier to use PDF.

>That they didn't want to is very telling about how they viewed the brand.
CCP didn't care about the WoD. It needed more "psssssh".

>>48544401
He's pretty clearly a Slasher. Though I think the actual Slasher templates are stupid.

You could, of course, play that kind of character in anything. Iron Master based on Dexter could certainly work.

>>48544401
Avenger-creed Hunter.

>>48544577
>I want you to cite why you think the casual consumer is going to buy a more expensive hardcopy over the much cheaper and easier to use PDF.
I don't think the average person likes reading books on a computer or a tablet. Assuming most casual consumers of a game like VtM even have a tablet is a stretch, IMO. The core VtM book is fairly thick and full of content/art and it is best presented in physical form.

And most importantly, where are most newbies/casuals going to look for new games to play? Game stores and book stores. They don't check humble bundle, or Drive-Thru, because they don't know what those things are (rightfully so, IMO, but that's another issue I won't get into here). Googling 'Vampire the masquerade' garners no results from either OPP or DTRPG, by the way, and neither does 'buy Vampire the Masquerade'.

>>48544780
No results on the first page, I should say.

>>48544780
>I don't think the average person likes reading books on a computer or a tablet.
I don't think the average person likes spending money on physical goods when they don't have to. The average person is also going to be incredibly accustomed to reading things on screens at this point. In fact, every time I've been to a physical gaming event, everyone has had at the very least a smartphone capable of storing a PDF.

>And most importantly, where are most newbies/casuals going to look for new games to play?
The internet. Places like /tg/, and r/rpg. RPG.net. This is 2016. It's not "rightfully so" that people don't know about those things, and those places are where they're going to learn about them.

>Googling 'Vampire the masquerade' garners no results from either OPP or DTRPG, by the way, and neither does 'buy Vampire the Masquerade'.
That's because the video game is more popular.

I feel like you're basically arguing "What *I* would do..." when you haven't the power or ability to do those things and neither does the company. They've even said before that they wouldn't be able to do these things without the Kickstarters because they wouldn't have any way to raise awareness.

>>48544917
Your definition of 'casual gamer' seems to be different to that of >>48544780

>>48544917
You don't like spending money because you still live on allowance from your parents.

>>48544917
>I don't think the average person likes spending money on physical goods when they don't have to.
Man, 30-35 dollars for a nice book is not a huge amount of money.

>The average person is also going to be incredibly accustomed to reading things on screens at this point.
No, they're not. Reading a website or blog or whatever, even a novel, is a lot different than reading a reference book.

>The internet. Places like /tg/, and r/rpg. RPG.net. This is 2016. It's not "rightfully so" that people don't know about those things, and those places are where they're going to learn about them.
Your average casual/newbie isn't going to know what any of those places are. The closest is reddit, and even then their starter guide recommends just as many physical products are online products, and directs new players to a store.

>That's because the video game is more popular.
Which means that a game store or book store is more likely to be someone's first exposure to RPG resources. Honestly it would not surprise me if most people didn't even realize VtM was more than a single video game, but that is a topic for another day.

>I feel like you're basically arguing "What *I* would do..." when you haven't the power or ability to do those things and neither does the company.
You are crazy if you don't think WW has the power to publish books at a semi-decent production level and, at least, have them sold online for a decent price. Hell, 60 dollars for a nice book would be better than what they're doing now.

>>48537898
>>48537912
>>48537926
>>48537944
>>48537963
>>48538059
>>48538841
>>48539074
God fucking dammit, can't you fucking take your faggot autistic cuntiness somewhere else?

Which is better: the Transylvania Chronicles or the Giovanni Chronicles?

>>48544780
>I don't think the average person likes reading books on a computer or a tablet.
that might have been true a while ago, but im honestly seeing it way more frequently today. Especially when smartphones and tablets are all over. Hell every GM i can think of has had a laptop or tablet open at the table.

>>48545215
Being a GM using resources on his laptop aside from (but maybe including) rulebooks is a lot different than a casual/newbie learning the rules for the first time. Like I said, a quick google search doesn't even show those PDFs exist.

>>48541270
Why the fuck would a new player fuck with VtM? That sounds awful.

>>48545288
>WoD is my secret Grognard club
You are the cancer killing tabletop gaming.

>>48545317
>Grognard
I don't think that means what you think it means. I'm literally saying playing the old version sounds awful.

>>48545455
Oh, okay. Well V20is only like 5 or so years old. I am all full a full-fledged update (without changing the lore so radically like VtR did) but at this rate, I don't think 4e will ever happen.

>>48544942
My definition of casual gamer is the kind of people who casually game, and aren't going to care to splurge for non-essentials, like physical books. Of all the people I've met, only the hardcore fans owned physical books. Most of the people I know own (or have pirated) PDFs.

>>48544957
And other people don't like spending money because they've got bills and shit.

>>48545135
Again, most of the people I've interacted with who are the kind of people who play RPGs are not going to be buying physical books unless they want something nice on the shelf.
>Your average casual/newbie isn't going to know what any of those places are.
They're also not going to go to specialty stores, so basically the only RPG a casual newbie is going to know about is Pathfinder or D&D or Shadowrun, because that's what they carry at the Barne's and Noble's.

>You are crazy if you don't think WW has the power to publish books
WHITE WOLF might. Onyx Path doesn't. White Wolf is not making the books at the moment.
I also feel like you're basing this on gut feelings. I'm not actually sure if Gamestop is still a big thing, but I don't feel that Paradox's Grand Strategy games are going to be found there, and certainly not Walmart.

>>48545215
>>48545257
Everyone I've encountered in real life uses their phone for gaming, except for the person who printed out a folder of FIASCO scenarios.

And most of my gaming has actually been online, with people who are often new to gaming.

This hypothetical newbie/casual seems to be someone ignorant of the very existence of roleplaying games, and apparently how the internet works. Meanwhile we get plenty of people to these threads asking about how to get started, /tg/ as a whole gets many people asking how to start, and many sites on the internet have exactly that.

Does book of spirit gets a second edition or is most of it still applicable?

>>48545499
>They're also not going to go to specialty stores
Sure they will, if they know a store in their community carries RPG resources.

>WHITE WOLF might. Onyx Path doesn't. White Wolf is not making the books at the moment.
White Wolf dictates what is published by OPP, at least to a point. They could easily front the cash needed for even a mid-size print run for online distro on amazon or their website or whatever, at an affordable price.

>I don't feel that Paradox's Grand Strategy games are going to be found there, and certainly not Walmart.
You can still by affordable copies of their new games in physical form. Games are a bit different though, since they're made exclusively for the computer world.

>Everyone I've encountered in real life uses their phone for gaming, except for the person who printed out a folder of FIASCO scenarios.
I have never, not once, seen a person use their smartphone to play an RPG.

> This hypothetical newbie/casual seems to be someone ignorant of the very existence of roleplaying games, and apparently how the internet works.
No, they're just not going to go through the channels (including this one) that an experienced RPer is going to know about. They'll probably do a quick google search, Amazon, maybe wiki, and check the bookstore where they remember seeing some D&D stuff and/or their local game store.

>>48544780
I looked up vampire v20 it was the first result .

And my grandmother owns a tablet. So does my 3 year old nephew.

Tablets are a thing.

>>48545736
A casual newbie is not going to know there was a V20 book to begin with and the second they saw those prices for the physical book, if they wanted a book, they're going to find themselves hitting the red 'X' in the corner of their browser very quickly.

>>48545684
>Sure they will, if they know a store in their community carries RPG resources.
You act like everyone knows those stores exist. I'm curious how your complete newbie even knows about Vampire in the first place.

>I have never, not once, seen a person use their smartphone to play an RPG.
I think you're lying. I've watched people GM Pathfinder using their phone, tablet, AND laptop.

>>48545766
All the new players I've met used other people's books in their group until someone shared pirated PDF files with them, desu.

And you're kind of assuming that someone has no clue how to find out anything about a game they want to play. For Requiem drivethru is on the first page of results. If you want to look up masquerade, google autocomplete gives you "Vampire the Masquerade PDF," which gives you drivethru on the 4th result down.


And few casual new RPG players just start randomly researching some new game they just heard about- most meet someone who invites them to join a game. That person can recommend resources.

Most of my group plays on laptop or tablet. Not many people use their phones because the screen is so small. I've met very few people who use physical character sheets. And although some friends prefer picking up books if they like a system and want to play it often, they are usually the die hard RPG type who won't let anything stand in their way if they want to try a new system.

>>48545871
>You act like everyone knows those stores exist. I'm curious how your complete newbie even knows about Vampire in the first place.
How about the popular video game? Or a wiki search? A casual mention on a message board? Also, one thing that is easy to search for is 'game store' followed by your zip code.

>I think you're lying. I've watched people GM Pathfinder using their phone, tablet, AND laptop.
No, I have never seen someone use their smartphone to play an RPG.I see a lot of laptops, mostly for GMs, and maybe the occasional tablet, but 9 times out of 10 it's a physical book.

>>48545916
I feel like you're making a lot of assumptions about how people get into RPGs. When I learned about RPGs and decided I wanted to get into them, I found 7chan's /tg/ board and did research to find GURPS Lite and pilfered some old Monopoly dice. Most of the people I've played with have been introduce to RPGs by someone, possibly me. I've run WoD IRC rooms where people would wander in and say they'd heard about it and were interested in learning.

In fact, I've taught a lot of people RPGs through sharing the PDF with them. That seems to be how a lot of people get started. And that's when they're not learning to play from an older relative or friend who's into them.

People aren't really even going to specialty stores or even book stores. Especially since those places are dying out.

>>48541802
>Primarily? Steadfast doesn't work the way he's arguing it does. There was also errata that says no to adding Mudra bonuses over 5, which prevents the thing he keeps harping on.
But he's already taking both into account.

>>48543363
>>48543475
EL is broken because you can take all the other broken spells and make THEM even more broken.

Like, EL + Psychic Domination is a shitwrecker against anything.

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So why's there such a focus on balancing mage when you're supposed to be a supernatural being of unlimited potential?

I understand scale: you don't want a Rookie Mage nuking a Headmaster.

But what gives? Is onyx path just set on making crossover games more accessible?
Just make a simple freeform magic system and call it a day.

>>48546078
>If your ST allows it
I mean, I'm not saying the rules are perfect, and for a certain degree I agree with the complaints, but ya'll are acting like this thing that is not exactly easy to stumble into and not exactly either intuitive or meaningful is somehow the equivalent of leaving the Ultima Weapon in a chest next to the starting point.
Even if it is broken, it isn't as broken as you're treating it.

>>48546177
One of the big issues of WoD was that the different splats allegedly co-existed, but the mechanics and fluff for each line were largely incompatible.
One of the things CofD did was have each gameline more firmly rooted in the basic/core ruleset, allowing people to play crossover games without ruining the ST's life.
It's... better that WoD did, but still not quite there.

>>48546181
This is literally just using two rotes out of the book.

>>48546260
Yes, in a very specific way to do a thing that many STs are likely to disallow, because "its in the book" does not mean you can 100% do it no questions asked.

I'm not even against it being changed (hell, I think "you can cast until you're at -5" is pointless and dumb and encourages shenanigans). But it is not as big a deal as its being made out to be.

>>48546177
>>48546236
People misunderstand game balance and what it means. This even includes Matt "game balance is a myth" McFarland.

>>48546334
Supercharging all of your spells is a big deal to me.

>>48545621
I think it all still works fairly well in the new system.

Will scion 2e have more rules for making magical items? I want scions of Hephaestus to actually be able to make cool stuff

It's really funny that we're having all this talk about who could publish what, since Paradox straight up republished one of White Wolf's old fiction anthologies from when they were also a publishing company.

>>48540237
Who needs Gehenna, when you can just play a normal campaign set in the Australian outback.

Also having a Moros Legacy based on the War Boys might be cool.

Best place to find a V20 game online?

I am a newbie.

Hey anons.

I'm relatively new to PnP RPGs, but I've been in enough games to know I can decently DM a campaign without shitting the bed. Mage: the Ascension appeals to me and my group of three (nWoD's Changeling: the Lost does too, but I suspect that would quickly turn into Edgelord: the Suicidal). Now, 1d4chan tells me that the magic rules are twisty as fuck and I should just cannibalise Awakening's via the Translation Guide. Is this true? I'd say yes, but it can't hurt to make sure.

Which version of the rules do I pick up? 2e, Revised or M20? What changes got made the setting? From what google can tell me, 2e was all global conspiracy, chessmasters and factionalism, and Revised is about street-level dudes all freaking out that their bosses are dead, with everybody grabbing scraps and trying not to die. I know fuck-all about M20.

Any general advice or tips? Anything I should watch out for as a DM when we're all WoD newbies?

>>48548086
Roll 20 or try a VtM FB page, there's one that has thousands of people in it and sometimes always posts looking for group

>>48544042
What generation are you looking at? That'll determine what you can really do with your build.

>>48544064
That really varies by the game. The older organizations like Mind's Eye Society and One World by Night tend to have that problem much deeper, the newer ones like Hidden Parlor and Underground Theater have energy and seem to be more self-aware. Standalone games vary wildly, of course.

>>48546177
So you think it's fine for the Fate Arcanum to be mandatory for any and all Mages intending to go against other Mages? Yeah, I suppose that's fine since there's no need for balance.

>>48550148
Eh, the worst effects I have seen described for Fate are the ability to get a few more points Spell Factors via exceptional Luck (useless in most situations, as you rarely need that many anyway I'd rather have that Spell Control Slot for something else), or guarantee success on a spellcasting roll (when you are rolling 6+ dice anyway, so who cares?), and have an all purpose Clash of Wills in Sworn Oaths.
Nice to have, but in Mage vs Mage i'd say Prime and Mind (Incognito Presence) are more important.

>>48550224
Incognito Presence got hit with errata.

Fate makes EVERYTHING better.

>>48550250
>errata

Wait, Mage 2e errata is out?

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>>48550224

Fate 2's Exceptional Luck makes Mind 2's Psychic Domination nigh-irresistible, and Prime 2's Wards and Signs virtually impregnable unless the target scores an exceptional success (granted, not impossible with a Praxis).

>>48550250
>Incognito Presence got hit with errata.
Yes, have you read it? Because it's really fucking powerful.
If you think those diceboni Fate offers are more powerful than what Mind offers I really don't know what to tell you.
Except that you never had an actual Mage/Mage conflict happen in one of your games. We had, and wasting actions on Fate is utterly useless compared to stuff like Mind or Prime.

>>48550294
>Fate 2's Exceptional Luck makes Mind 2's Psychic Domination nigh-irresistible
Except Spells aren't resisted, they are withstood. Unless you are an absolute noob Mage Layering Exceptional Luck on top of your already assured succes is an absolute waste of both an action and a spellslot.

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>>48550381
>wasting actions
You can cast it as a reflexive action.

>>48550416

+2 reach to affect spellcasting, +2 for Reflexive casting.
So you can do it, but would need the Rote or Fate 5 to do it.
Also you are burning 1 extra mana each time you cast this way.

>>48550381
>Except Spells aren't resisted, they are withstood.

Extra dice in your casting pool can offset the casting pool penalty of -2 per extra point of Potency.
This isn't as crazy as I thought since I just found the rule that you can only boost the potency by [Arcanum dots -1]

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>>48550381

>Yes, have you read it? Because it's really fucking powerful.
It is excellent for infiltration and evading notice (obviously), but there is nothing in its current wording that would make it especially useful against someone trying to actively attack you. A turn is three seconds long, and it hardly takes that long a glance to take aim and swing or shoot.

That said, Exceptional Luck can supercharge Incognito Presence by helping push its Advanced Duration to one year, thereby making it difficult to overcome in a Clash of Wills.

>We had, and wasting actions on Fate is utterly useless compared to stuff like Mind or Prime.
A Rote for Exceptional Luck and spending 2 Reaches and 1 Mana is very helpful.

Exceptional Luck can also serve as a near-perfect defense against most forms of damage by using it as a reflexive action to gain the Charmed Condition and push down damage to 1.

>Except Spells aren't resisted, they are withstood.
Which is why pushing up Potency via spell factors is quite useful, and Exceptional Luck directly helps with that.

>>48550639

>So you can do it, but would need the Rote or Fate 5 to do it.
Considering how effective Exceptional Casting is, taking a Rote for it is an incredible deal.

>Also you are burning 1 extra mana each time you cast this way.
A small price to pay to supercharge a spell.

>>48550639

>This isn't as crazy as I thought since I just found the rule that you can only boost the potency by [Arcanum dots -1]
No. That is the automatic, free increase to primary spell factor. Refer to page 113.

"After penalties have been applied for the desired spell factors, the player may move the primary factor up its chart a number of steps equal to the character’s rating in the spell’s highest Arcanum minus one. For example, a Forces spell with a primary spell factor of Duration would last for 5 turns when cast by a mage with her Forces Arcanum rated at 3 and a –2 penalty to her casting roll."

>>48550676
>No. That is the automatic, free increase to primary spell factor. Refer to page 113.

Had to re-read it a few times to get it. At least I think I get it.

A spell with Primary Spell Factor of Potency starts at 1 potency, boosts it by taking X -2 dice pool penalties, and after all the spell factors got applied, gets an extra boost of [Arcanum -1] for a total of [Arcanum + X]

Thank you for clarifying this for me, the wording in the book could definitely have been clearer.

You really seem to know your stuff. Can I have you make sure I understood other parts of the rules correctly?

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>>48550863

>You really seem to know your stuff. Can I have you make sure I understood other parts of the rules correctly?

Feel free, although I will admit that I have not read through the rules particularly thoroughly. Compared to other RPGs, this is not quite a game I have invested too much thought into.

>>48550148
You people have strange ideas on what is or isn't mandatory.

>>48550294
So I guess Prime is also mandatory,

>>48550639
Everyone knows that mana is meaningless and resources are never scarce.
>This isn't as crazy as I thought since I just found the rule that you can only boost the potency by [Arcanum dots -1]
What? Are you sure you're not thinking of the fact that spells default at Potency 1 and get Arcanum-1 Primary Spell Factor when you cast them?

>>48550863
>You really seem to know your stuff. Can I have you make sure I understood other parts of the rules correctly?
Please don't encourage him. He only knows how to break the game.

The only thing they need to errata is all the SJW propaganda they forced into it in the first place.

>>48551046
Errata more SJW propaganda, you mean.

You know where talk of the boogeyman goes >>>/x/

>>48550286
As of just over a week ago, senpai
http://theonyxpath.com/awakening-2e-errata-mage-the-awakening/

>>48549915
Neonate. Just the one dot.

>>48552047
>Just the one dot.
That's on or off, defines what is and what is not?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QWsh92A7qg

>>48551076

I am confused, do you think that people who think that white cishet males are the enemy don't exist, or do you think that it isn't a problem?

Also what is your opinion of Men's Rights Activists?

>>48551046
Wait what? This is the first time I heard Mage being accused of being SJW propaganda.

>>48551016
>Please don't encourage him. He only knows how to break the game.

Knowing how something might break is step one in fixing it.

But there are many reasons besides that. A stable set of rules is what gives new players the feeling of security and familiarity that allows them to enjoy the game.

Think of it like this - Why do you not play as Archmaster Mages? Mostly because the limits of their powers are too poorly defined, they feel 'too mooshy'.
Even Mage in general gets criticized as a system for being too liberal in handing out power to it's players.

So while the mentality that you should kick all munchkins out of your gaming group seems like a wise solution within the scope of your own group, it inherently shrinks the number of people who are playing the game.
>Good riddance, we don't need them.
But you do. Because they buy books that pay the dev's salaries so that they can put out high quality content.

And it costs very little, the whole mentality of the game does not need to be changed.
In fact if done well, I bet that clearly worded, internally consistent rules could be written in the same amount of space as are currently being used.

>>48551010

Specifically I am trying to understand how to form the dice pool for Mages who are using teamwork rules to help with ritual casting.

I like the base idea - roll a pool of dice, add successes as bonus dice to the casting pool of the primary caster.

Those who have dots in the correct Arcana but not enough of them seem clear enough
>gnosis -3

But for those that could cast the spell, it says that she
>rolls her own casting
but what does that include?
Obviously Gnosis+Arcanum
but
>Yantras?
and if so are the spell factor penalties subtracted?
>Extended casting bonuses?
And if so, whose Ritual casting time is used, the Primary caster's or each individual participating?
>anything else?

>>48553007
Personally, I'd say Yantras are used, extended casting can be done, and it uses the individual ritual time of all participants.
>Yantras
Because a group of shamans standing in a circle, beating drums and singing, around another shaman, who has his arms raised to the sky, in order for them all to teamwork the magic for a rain storm, is a cool image, in my opinion.
Also because you could swap out the shaman and the effect/what their yantras are for anything else and the image still remains cool. For something more modern, lets say a group of Libertines who all have Hacking as their Techne, sitting at their computers miles away from each other, typing away and sending the code to their friend, who compiles all their coding together in order to hack a big ass meteor into missing the planet. Or something.
>Extended Casting
Because while G1 hacker/shaman is powering up his 3-hour ritual casting to give the bonus, the G3s could each get an extra two dice to their 1-hour ritual casting, and the G5 leader of the group could get a full +5.

>>48553007
>>48553295
The helpers aren't casting. Just Gnosis+Arcanum with a ritual time scale of the primary caster. Signs of Sorcery will have expanded ritual mechanics, including grand rituals.

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>>48553007

I truly would not know. The core Chronicles of Darkness rules are quite vague on just what modifiers apply to teamwork actions:

>Teamwork: When two or more people work together, one person takes the lead. He’s the primary actor, and his player assembles his dice pool as normal. Anyone assisting rolls the same pool before the primary actor. Each success from a secondary actor gives the primary actor a bonus die. If one of the secondary actors rolls a dramatic failure, the primary actor takes a four-die penalty.

Page 119 of Mage 2e says "rolls her own casting" with no mention of Yantras or spell factors.

There is no clear, RAW answer to this, and I hope Signs of Sorcery will elucidate this.

>>48552668

Mage 2e acknowledges that maybe gender isn't such a big deal to a bunch of reality changing wizards in a sidebar. That's the big culture war scuttlebutt around it, I think.

>>48553398

Is this DaveB posting without his trip?

I like the answer though, simplifies a lot of things.

>>48553696
Same for Werewolves (Lasting duration Gift) and Demons (covers). Something like 4% of chargen mages are Disciples of Life and capable of functional changes and growing claws, tails and tentacles.

>>48554058
>Something like 4% of chargen mages are Disciples of Life

Where are you getting these statistics?

>>48554216
There are 5 different Arcana spreads for chargen mages. 2 of them include being a Disciple of an Arcanum (40%). Assuming an equal distribution for all the spreads and 10 Arcana, you end up with 4%.

>Knit: Has an extra Reach effect; "+1 Reach: the spell heals one lethal damage per Potency instead of two bashing"
Awesome, you no longer have to wait until Gnosis 3 to be able to heal Lethal.

>>48554278

Ahh, I see.
I thought there might have been a poll or something.

What is the last update we had on VtM 4e?

>>48552680
>A stable set of rules is what gives new players the feeling of security and familiarity that allows them to enjoy the game.
Yes, but the rules are stable. The argument seems to be that because this *potential* problem exists, a) this option is clearly the best no questions asked, b) everyone will take it regardless of other options, and c) this is the only outcome.
None of that is true. And it certainly isn't some new player issue, either. From what I can tell, new players are getting turned off by this implication that everything is impossibly unplayable.

>>48553007
They roll their own casting pool. As in, the pool they would use to cast the spell. The primary actor is the one actually casting, their time is used.

>>48553492
>The core Chronicles of Darkness rules are quite vague on just what modifiers apply to teamwork actions:
It's vague on what modifiers apply to anything. It's always been that way.

>>48553696
You remotely imply that gender or sex are different from the assumptions most people have drilled into them since preschool and suddenly you're an SJW manhating boogeyman. Even though it's been repeatedly proven true. But SQWs have to come in bashing their shields for the status quo.

>>48554542
Aspel please go.

>>48554687
You first

>>48543100
I want one to hang out in my Haven and bite nerds that annoy it. Would that be viable?

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>>48540691
Thanks, Brobama

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>>48537898
>>48537912
>>48537926
>>48537944
>>48537963

Addendum: You might notice the Mana costs here. They are quite low, but Mana costs in general are quite irrelevant in Mage 2e it is are presently written.

It is trivial for a mage to regain Mana and Willpower in a calm scene simply by spamming a spell they have a Praxis for. As per DaveB, failing on spellcasting rolls outside of tense situations does not incur the cumulative -1 penalty; they do use the "down and dirty" spellcasting rules, but that does not prevent Praxis usage.

It is baffling that was never addressed in errata. Mages should not be able to regain all Mana and Willpower with a minutes-long breather.

>>48554897
Depends on where your Haven is. And maybe if you are willing to pay.

Gangrel are practical like wild animals.


I don't know why you don't just make a ghoul or two for this purpose, though. That's what ghouls are for, and they'll be more trustworthy.

>>48554542

>SQWs

This is never going to catch on for a number of reasons. All it does is legitimize the playing field your political opponent established. It's also just as dumb a term as the other one.

>>48554527

V20 IS officially VtM 4th edition now. White Wolf AB considers One World of Darkness to be the 5th edition of the setting. Otherwise, expect no news until The Grand Masquerade later this year.

>>48555034
>they do use the "down and dirty" spellcasting rules, but that does not prevent Praxis usage
Down and Dirty Spellcasting is not a spellcasting roll. It's an exception case without Dramatic Failures or Exceptional successes. Success on the roll simply means that the spell goes off, with successes only mattering for scale.

>>48555362
Where does it specify that?

>>48555320
That is not at all what they've said.

>>48555034
The way that you continually fail to understand how the game works due to your inability to grasp non-mechanical aspects is really irritating.

The use of Down and Dirty Spellcasting was explained to you as if you were a child, yet somehow you still don't understand it. You treat rules of thumb as hard and fast laws, and try to abuse them. You fail to understand why the mechanics work the way they do, and while that might be partly the game's fault, I never see other people arguing in favour of casting a random spell for no reason just to use the Praxis bonus to get free mana. Most people understand that when the game rewards you with something for playing the game, you have to actually play the game to get that reward. But you? You see it and find another system to abuse.

>>48555459
>p117
>In these cases, just have players roll Gnosis + Arcanum. Success on the roll equals a successful casting.
No reference to it being a spellcasting roll or using its result table.

>>48555556
Aspel please go.

>>48555556
Yes, they did. Even the OPP devs have said it at one point.

https://youtu.be/hjTzdoXMwFU has the video where it talks about it.

>>48555555

>>48555641
Instead of watching that I'm just going to believe you.

>>48555599
I feel that's spurious logic of the kind Touhou uses, but fight fire with fire.
You clearly aren't supposed to be using Praxes and all this shit, though. You're also not supposed to be gaming it. It's explicitly to move the plot along, not push button receive bacon ad infinitum.

>>48555723
Yup. If you're going to get into the word salad of "it doesn't say I can't", then you also get into the issues of "this is literally all it says".

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>this thread

Keep being the most good rules-hating general on /tg/, guys.

>>48555838
It's not our fault Touhou keeps coming in here to shitpost instead of taking his rules concerns to the OP forums, where people who matter might actually see it

>>48555888
He's not the problem.

>>48555838
No one hates the rules. No one hates good rules, either.

Good rules will not solve any of the problems here, because no system will ever stand up to Touhou. Even the ones he says he loves, he's chased people away by pointing out all their flaws.

I would honestly like to see Touhou make a game. Not in a petty "YOU try it" sort of way, but in a "I honestly want to know what this would look like" way. But much like the True Fae, he cannot create.

>>48555911
No, you are, when you create this strawman of everyone "hating good rules".

>>48555928
>Even the ones he says he loves, he's chased people away by pointing out all their flaws.
>loving a system = ignoring its flaws
K, Aspel.

What book did the Assamite clan first appear in?

>>48556012
Again, I don't know how to be clear about this in a way that you will understand: I do not ignore the system's flaws.
I have repeatedly talked about parts of the system I dislike.
I've repeatedly talked about suggestions of how to handle it.
I do not think the system is perfect.

But I also understand how the system is meant to be used, and what it wants to do, what it doesn't want to do, what it cares about, and what it doesn't care about. These are not even difficult things to understand, so that's not exactly an accomplishment.

It's not that people are ignoring the flaws, it's that they're not even understanding them. It's that they're expecting the game to be written as a technical manual that treats the players as if they are going to look for exploits, as opposed to people who want to have fun playing elfgames. It comes from a place of antagonism and abuse. Looking for ways to argue and weasel isn't conducive to good rules, it results in bad playing.

>>48555556
>I never see other people arguing in favour of casting a random spell for no reason just to use the Praxis bonus to get free mana.

See this is the essence of what a Mage game is about to me.
You are unraveling the mystery that is the Universe.
Understanding the rules that govern it is supposed to be what your character is about.
If you can regain mana by drawing down the perfection of the Supernal, by embodying it in your will made manifest so perfectly, that none of the Fallen World's Lies can touch it, this is a fun basis for an interesting story to me.

But then again I bet you have never played with people like my gaming group.
Back in AD&D 1e we used the rule that a character gets a keep at tenth level to use captured monsters to level up while within sight of a Great Wyrm Dragon.
>Player points at the sky - I want my keep right there, above where the dragon is hovering.
>Splat
many lols were had

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>>48555362
>>48555556
>>48555783

Mage 2e makes no reference to the possibility of a spell being cast without a spellcasting roll.

For example, in page 115:
>Aimed spell rolls happen after spellcasting rolls and Paradox roll results have been determined, but are reflexive — they happen on the same turn as the spellcasting roll.
(Aimed spells are not just for combat. They are also for casting spells at a distance without having to spend Reach for such.)

If down and dirty spellcasting is not a casting roll, then the game enters an invalid state when an aimed spell is cast.

One could argue that the option to perform an aimed spell is located in the main spellcasting rules and is thus invalid for down and dirty spellcasting. However, the rules for Withstanding are within the same section and under the same degree of rules section header (in fact, they are immediately before the rules for aimed spells), so a down and dirty spell would never bother with such a rule.

In other words, whether or not down and dirty spellcasting's roll counts as a spellcasting roll, there are murky and/or questionable rules in play that could stand to be added to the errata.

>>48556344

I love your posts, but why do you have to avatar-fag with those pictures.

It's not like people will not know who you are when you post.

>>48556344
You seem knowledgeable

Spells with an effect that would happen instantly, when case with a longer duration, recur on every round of your ritual casting time. So shooting a fireball at Gnosis 3 with an indefinite duration would cast a new fireball every hour until the spell ended

But how does that affect aimed spells.Does the taret get hit every hour, or do I shoot ire every hour at whatever I'm pointing at at the time?

>>48556344
>>48556264

If we are going to be talking about it, we might as well write a Fan-Hack netbook of Mage 2e's rules.

With 2Hu's rules analysis, we can try to find brief and common sense ways to express the rules in a way that makes them internally consistent.

From what DaveB said, we are not going to get any more improvement to core Mage rules now that the rules errata is out.
3e, if it ever comes out, is 10 years away.

While Mage 2e's release is still fresh in everyone's minds, now is the time to do the necessary hacks to make it better.

We will all have to explain and house rule issues as they come up in our games, and all of us will be able to do it better than each of us separately.

>>48556304
The rules exist to serve the narrative, not as actual physical laws that the characters are governed by. That's stated time and time again.
>If you can regain mana by drawing down the perfection of the Supernal, by embodying it in your will made manifest so perfectly, that none of the Fallen World's Lies can touch it, this is a fun basis for an interesting story to me.
You regain mana by getting an exceptional success because you're reinvigorated by the skill and talent that you managed. It's hard to be impressive when you're picking your nose REALLY well.

Also, you do know that "you get a keep" doesn't mean that it physically appears, right? Understanding what the rules represent is as important as understanding the rules.

>>48556344
Adslahnit the problem is that you can't understand what the Down and Dirty system is. You think that it's a physical law that the reality of the world abides by, when really it's a narrative handwaving so that the story can progress. It's just like Down and Dirty Combat: it simplifies what would otherwise be a long and complicated process to move the story along. It is not meant to be used so that you can abuse that subsystem for receiving free mana.

You know those "insane troll science" images? That's essentially what you're trying.

>>48556455
He is not knowledgeable.
Also, you'd get a flaming ball of fire in your hand, essentially.

>>48556521
>Fan-Hack netbook
What?
Also, I don't feel that any major changes are necessary. There are things I'd houserule, but none of them are things that I feel break the system. Most people don't even try to play the game the way that Touhou treats it.

>>48556344

What do you think, If you use the Fate spell Monke's Paw to add a boon enchantment to a Yantra, and the +2 Reach to make it apply to spellcasting, can I use the benefit when using it as my 1 Yantra for Instant casting?

>>48556585
>He is not knowledgeable.
>Also, you'd get a flaming ball of fire in your hand, essentially.

And if I cast it at sensory range, and then let, would it still work, or again fireballs somewhere I can see every hour?

>>48556585
Can you stop posting? Your posts take up a lot of space but they don't contribute anything.

>>48556219
Please respond.

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>>48556455

The rules for recurring spells are almost uselessly vague and have no clear rules or guidelines by RAW. To wit, page 113 says:
>If a spell would logically have an immediate effect but is cast with Advanced Duration, the effect recurs at every multiple of the character’s Gnosis-based ritual casting time, until the Duration runs out. For example, a Gnosis 1 character’s healing spell with a Duration of a day heals its Potency in Health boxes every three hours. The highest level of the Advanced Duration chart is “indefinite,” meaning the spell lasts until dispelled or the caster cancels it. Moving to indefinite requires a second Reach, and the caster must also spend a point of Mana.

This does not cover how targeting will work, since spells can come in all forms of ranges (touch, sensory, aimed), subjects (one person, many persons, an area of effect).

For that matter, there are actually no rules on what happens when Scale is used to have a spell act in an area-of-effect. Are the targets still subject to any duration-dependent effects when they leave the area, or is the area itself what provides the effect for those who linger within it? Page 113 is totally unclear on this as well.

There is nothing left here but Storyteller interpretation, and that is a shame considering that these are some of the more powerful tools in a mage's arsenal.

>>48556588

I do not think a Yantra counts as a "lifeless object."

You are almost always better off directly using Exceptional Luck to hypercharge your spellcasting.

>>48556628
Neither do yours.

>>48556624
I feel at that point you're in the territory where it's left up to the ST to decide. Though personally I think it would just keep lighting on fire, whether you're there to stare at it or not.

>>48556650
http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Assamite#References
Here's their write up, if that's what you're looking for
https://spillklubben.samfunnet.no/vampireassamite.htm

>>48556585
>Also, you do know that "you get a keep" doesn't mean that it physically appears, right?

As a kid just getting into TTRPGs being able to find ways to use the system to achieve something far beyond your supposed abilities.
And everyone understood we were being ultra-literal, and everyone was having fun, so everything was ok.
The real adventure started once we got to the Dragon horde, since it was full of cursed magic items. And we had to act fast just to get some of the treasure out before all of the scavenger adventurers learned of the Dragon's demise.

I am just using this as an example from my own life experience, when taking the rules to insane conclusions proved fun.

>>48556708
>There is nothing left here but Storyteller interpretation, and that is a shame considering that these are some of the more powerful tools in a mage's arsenal.

This kind of stuff right here is why I am proposing writing a Fan-Hack guide to 2e.

Creating sensible limits to what Mages can do, not to quash their potential, but to be able to make sense of it all in a consistent manner.

>>48556708
>For that matter, there are actually no rules on what happens when Scale is used to have a spell act in an area-of-effect. Are the targets still subject to any duration-dependent effects when they leave the area, or is the area itself what provides the effect for those who linger within it? Page 113 is totally unclear on this as well.
That's not at all unclear.

>Scale
>The scale of a spell is how large the spell is. Mages must decide when casting whether they are targeting specific subjects or a blanket area of effect. Aimed spells (see below) must use area of effect, centered on wherever the mage aims.
>If the mage uses Number of Subjects for Scale, the factor determines how many subjects may be affected and the Size of the largest subject. Once decided, a mage can affect fewer subjects than the scale of her spell permits.
>If using Area of Effect for Scale, the factor instead determines how large the area covered by the spell is, applying the spell effect to anyone or anything within. A mage cannot single out specific subjects in the declared space unless she uses the spell Warding Gesture (see “Fate,” p. 136).
I am like 90% certain that you've had this explained to you previously, possibly even by Dave.
If you use Area for Scale, then everything and everyone who is a valid subject is targeted. You would want to use this if, for instance, you want to fill your Sanctum with an enchantment that effects everyone. Subject on the other hand is for choosing or excluding particular people (you wouldn't want to cast your heal spell as an AoE in the middle of combat with foes... they'd get healed as well)

>>48556748
That's fine and completely valid and if everyone is having fun then that's good, but it's important to keep in mind that arguing that the system is meant to work that way and it needs to be spelled out that you can't have a castle magically appear in the air is pretty facile. That's sort of what keeps going on here

>>48556801
But he's wrong

>>48556801

Now what I am suggesting isn't to write Errata, but clarifications.

We can suggest possible errata for STs to consider, but I think we should be trying to stay as close as possible to the rules as written in the Mage book.

>>48556708
>I do not think a Yantra counts as a "lifeless object."

What? Is a wizard's staff alive?
Maybe not all of them are objects, but there are obviously examples of lifeless objects being used as Yantras.

>>48555092
Cute Gangrel girls will stay cute forever, even long after I'm gone. Cute ghouls just don't have the same longevity.

>>48556923
You use objects as yantras, but they are not themselves yantras. They're mnemonics, not objects of power.

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>>48556856

Suppose I cast Mind 1's One Mind, Two Thoughts with Advanced Scale, affecting "a large house or building" (poor wording there, implying it could affect a skyscraper).

Does everyone in the "large house or building" receive the benefits of One Mind, Two Thoughts at the time of the casting, even when they move out of the area, or does the effect apply to anyone who happens to linger within the area?

Likewise, if I cast a Potency 5 Exceptional Luck on multiple targets to grant a +5 bonus to the next five spellcasting rolls, is that five rolls for each of them or five rolls in total?

>>48556923

Casting Monkey's Paw on, say, an Order or Path Tool would improve the item's equipment bonus. As far as I am aware, that is irrelevant to Yantras.

>>48556983
>Does everyone in the "large house or building" receive the benefits of One Mind, Two Thoughts at the time of the casting, even when they move out of the area, or does the effect apply to anyone who happens to linger within the area?

You could do both.
Whichever way you imagine it in your Imago.

>>48556983
>One Mind, Two Thoughts
Effect for those in the area. You could target each individual in the area instead in which case they would get it for the duration of the spell, in which case no one else gets it by entering the area.
>Exceptional Luck
Each of them.

>>48556983

I think the first part should be deciding on what everyone agrees are the good parts of the system, and don't need to be tweaked.

Should we make the list by Concepts - like 'Rotes rules are fine as is.'
or by page ranges - like p.93-98 are ok?

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>>48557014

That could stand to be clarified, then. This is a major tool in a mage's arsenal (one Reach to affect a "large house or building" is a tremendous augmentation), and it deserves elucidation.

>>48557062

What is the rules source for these rulings?

>>48557085

Many of the issues you would encounter are grounded in the Storyteller system itself, which is deeply archaic and absolutely does not suit the "interesting story first" approach the new Chronicles of Darkness developers appear to wish to embrace.

Revising Mage 2e would be a lost cause when Storyteller is the decaying core of the system.

>>48556983
>(poor wording there, implying it could affect a skyscraper).
It's not a poor wording, you're just looking for anything you can weasel more out of than is intended. It's an intentionally vague example. You know what it means.

>Does everyone in the "large house or building" receive the benefits of One Mind, Two Thoughts at the time of the casting, even when they move out of the area, or does the effect apply to anyone who happens to linger within the area?
It effects people who are in the area.
If they leave the area, are they in the area of the spell's effect?

>is that five rolls for each of them or five rolls in total?
Each subject within the Scale is effected by the spell separately, just as you wouldn't cast an Area damage spell and only have it hit two of them because the Potency is 2.

>>48557014
If you want it to linger, you'd need to target the people, not the area.

>>48557085
I don't really think that any of the system needs to be changed, and the tweaks I'd want would be for my group only. For instance, Yantras are perfectly serviceable, but I'd add more variety, so that you have more options for Yantras that give free Spell Factors (like the Rote Factors in ToM), mitigate Paradox like Personal Tools, or function like Prelacies; on top of the boring +1s.
I'd also make certain that Yantra feel unique, as opposed to interchangeable.

>>48557147
The Scale mechanics.

Do you think it would be reasonable to refund someone's Willpower Dot should a fully relinquished spell be destroyed?

>>48557147
>That could stand to be clarified, then.
>What is the rules source for these rulings?
Because that is literally what the book says.
>If using Area of Effect for Scale, the factor instead determines how large the area covered by the spell is, applying the spell effect to anyone or anything within. A mage cannot single out specific subjects in the declared space unless she uses the spell Warding Gesture (see “Fate,” p. 136).
You apply the spell effect to anyone or anything within. If something stops being within, it... stops being effected.

>which is deeply archaic
It really isn't.
In this case the system isn't the problem, your attitude and approach to gaming is.

>>48557206
>In this case the system isn't the problem, your attitude and approach to gaming is.
No, your autism is, along with the system.

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>>48557152

>It's not a poor wording, you're just looking for anything you can weasel more out of than is intended. It's an intentionally vague example. You know what it means.

"Large house or building" can mean one or two things:

"Large house, or building" = Skyscraper is still valid
"Large house, or large building" = Skyscraper is likewise still valid

What they probably meant to write was "large house or small building."

>>48557190
>>48557206

>applying the spell effect to anyone or anything within

This is deeply ambiguous as to whether or not it can apply to anyone who happened to be within the area at the time of the casting.

>>48556940
Yes, but cute ghouls are much easier to get rid of if you get sick of them, or if the two of you fight, or if they start thinking it's their territory instead of yours.

It's not like you can't make more ghouled qts or even breed your own line of them.

>>48557287
Again, you're looking for weaseling. You're trying to rules lawyer when it's clear that it means a moderate sized building that would be comparable to a large house, but not larger than a warehouse or parking lot. It's not unclear, you just pretend that it is so that you can quibble.

>This is deeply ambiguous
No, it isn't. It is at best shallowly ambiguous, but you, ironically, have no sense of scale, so you treat every issue as if it were the Crack from Doctor Who.

>>48557266
K

>>48557376
Aspel please go.

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>Striking Looks 4

>>48556733
I'm looking for the name of the rulebook they first appeared in.

>>48557865
It would likely be one of those that's listed in the References section.

>>48557772
>4
Also, the first female? Weren't Peach and Zelda in the original Smash?
Is she even in the heavy-weight class?

>>48557152
>I don't really think that any of the system needs to be changed
>>48557147
>Revising Mage 2e would be a lost cause when Storyteller is the decaying core of the system.

Well you are in luck, because I am naive enough to try to make the best of Mage 2e.
Unlike Aspel I think it can be improved.
Unlike 2hu I think that it isn't a hopeless endeavor.

Mostly because I love the 10 Arcana spell classification system. I think that it is closest to what I want in a General Spellcasting System.

Not that there is any hurry, since there aren't any people that share my interest, ill just tweak it as a hobby for my own enjoyment, and post it here to make sure that I am incorporating everybody's advice.

>>48558066
>Unlike Aspel I think it can be improved.
I didn't say it can't be improved. In fact...
>and the tweaks I'd want would be for my group only.

>>48557988
Those books are all post-Revised and the Assamites appeared long before that.

>>48558096
Player's Guide in 1e

Hey can anyone tell me about Lodge Sorcery for Werewolf the forsaken? I keep seeing references to it but idk what books its from.

What day's gen con again?

>>48560632
August 3-7

>>48509754#p48519910

I'm a long time GM of other games and just got the Promethean book a week ago.

Should I study up and run a group for you guys? Is there any interest?

>>48561555
>>48519910
Let's try that again.

>>48561555

You're gonna have a tough time finding a group right now, and doubly so; Promethean 2e should be coming out within the month.

>>48561818
>Promethean 2e should be coming out within the month.
Feck.

Well, good thing I bought it used,

>>48561853

Thankfully all of the fluff should carry over, and the entire Promethean line makes for fantastic reading. If you can hunt down a copy of Saturnine Night, it' a masterpiece.

Anybody else wanna share Promethean stuff? I've got a couple character concepts I'm sitting on at the moment.

>>48561900
Well, I'd love to read your stuff. I've been mostly reading the lore so far before I dig into the crunch.

Would like to hear some characters.

>>48561934

I've got two. Angel is Galateid whose creator (mortal, not a Promethean; apparently 2e is opening things up to mortal creators that aren't demiurges) thought he was bringing his lover back to life and reacted poorly when a stranger wearing his boyfriend's skin stood off the slab and insisted on being a woman. Her Pilgrimage is largely focused on understanding how love (and trying to find it in all the wrong places), exploring Promethean as a game about queer identities, and dealing with having to wear someone else's face.

Israel is an Extempore (they're in a later book and will be in 2e core, Prometheans created by random natural accident rather than conscious birth) who awoke after a volcanic eruption in Hawaii. He's intensely distrustful of mortal society and prefers the wilderness and the waves, struggling with the friendly ideals of Hawaii and frequently conflicting with the sizable organized crime element on the islands.

Oh my god. I am so pleased that Touhoufag has returned to torment you all, like the bird pecking out Prometheus' liver each day.

Because rest assured, he is needed.

And rest assured, you have committed a crime.

>>48562077

Does that mean we need a shitposting Heracles to rescue us?

>>48562077
What I'm going to do to your asshole hasn't been a crime since 2003.

>>48562077
Shut up, Amy.

Why must mage always be broken?

>>48562866
because you cant balance open ended powers?

>>48562884
It's not about balance.
The game don't even fit in the horror of Wod/Cod

>>48562909
Yes it does. People who say this are dumb, and don't understand either Mage or CofD or maybe both.

>>48562866
Because they are the best.

>>48562909

I personally like Unknown Armies more than Mage, but it's still a fun game with a great setting.

>>48540202
i've played with a "fox gangrel" and i was malkavian. it was my first game freshman year of college.

the game went so well, i bought her coffee, and then a few beers, and then i found out she had a tail dildo in her dorm room that she insisted in wearing during intercourse.

my advice is real-life charisma.

>>48563507

Why would you be surprised by a Gangrel player having furry tendencies?

>>48563514
i was not surprised. i was "pleasantly surprised"

i was just satisfied she didn't have a fur suit, but just a tail. i can work with just a tail.

>>48563507
Fuck, I just have one dot.

>>48563514
The only gangrel player I ever met had paw prints tattooed all over her body and was over 40. She tricked my naive malkie into being bloodbound to her and her husband the GM tried to turn it into a threesome, but neither were attractive people.

>>48563594
Get a better haircut and have at least 1 but no more than 3 units of alcohol and you'll get a temporary boost. Use willpower if you have to!

>>48562077
Get hype for Promethean 2e :3

>>48562044
Do you know anything about Zeka being in 2e? Or I guess anything about Zeka in general, they probably sound like the most interesting lineage but also the most difficult to play.

>>48563824


Zeka aren't in the 2e core but everyone else is. Expect new Lineages in Dark Eras.

>>48538939
>His points aren't wrong, that's totally possible
But the example he's giving is unlikely to happen in a real game

How does this make sense? Everything in his example can be achieved trivially by a starting character. Why can't I just join a game and do this combo immediately?

When will we get some GenCon spoilers?

>>48563507
>then i found out she had a tail dildo in her dorm room that she insisted in wearing during intercourse.
I'm not seeing a problem.

>>48563530
>i was not surprised. i was "pleasantly surprised"
Ah.

>>48563917
Because the ST will likely tell you "I don't like you doing this all the time, please refrain from doing it, it makes the game less fun for everyone involved."

>>48563917
Because 9 STs out of 10 will nip that anti-fun shit in the bud after the first time.
If you wanna have fun, try playing the game instead of breaking it.

>>48564016
Alternately, they'll just not care.

>>48543475

>It's not that scouring is a problem. It's that you're arguing that the thing the setting considers as a scarce resource should be easy to get because you can just do this or that thing that is mechanically simple but narratively should be treated with a little more care.

That's completely false. Scouring is not treated as narratively dangerous. I believe it was Tome of the Mysteries that says it doesn't even have to be painful. The whole player assumption that it's dangerous is completely unfounded.

I agree with you that mana should be scarce, but by the rules it's unlimited, which I think is really dumb. I'm slightly peeved that there was no errata to fix it.

For example, to create unlimited mana, you can:

Cast Create Essence on your familiar ad infinitum, then convert the essence to mana.

Cast Channel Essence on your familiar ad infinitum, then convert the essence to mana. Requires an easily renewable source of essence that's compatible with your familiar. Otherwise you'll turn it into a Magath.

Cast a praxis over and over again so you get exceptional successes, restoring your willpower and mana.

Cast Create Truth repeatedly. This one I'm fine with since it has consequences, and also requires a high initial investment.

>>48563979

Probably when Gen Con starts?

>>48564067
>A mage can Scour her Pattern for Mana, literally tearing apart some of the building blocks that maintain her physical form. This shreds her mortal body, but the resulting release produces Mana. In game terms, she reduces a Physical Attribute (and all traits derived from it, such as Health for Stamina) by one dot for 24 hours, or suffers one resistant lethal wound. This produces three Mana.
You're right, nothing painful or uncomfortable about that. It certainly isn't dangerous to stab yourself or weaken yourself.

>by the rules it's unlimited
No, by abusing the mechanics its unlimited. The ST should put a stop to that. Just because the mechanics don't have rules for diminishing returns doesn't mean you should be able to pull the ol' "Drink a ghoul with Producer, give them a point of vitae, have them heal, repeat" trick. And neither should you be able to ignore one of the aspects of the setting by doing all of that. The game shouldn't even *need* rules to prevent that.

>Cast a praxis over and over again so you get exceptional successes, restoring your willpower and mana.
This one especially is just asinine. You have to actually *do* something, not sit around picking your nose and casting Tune In over and over. You aren't reinvigorated spiritually by doing stupid shit without effort or trouble.

>>48564079
Yeah, but that's like in a week. I mean when during that week will they announce stuff? Didn't they give out a flyer on day one last year? I'm hoping to learn if we'll get Geist 2e. Then again, I feel like they definitely need to not put more things in the pipeline.

>>48564154

Brochure at some point and then like six panels. I'm really jealous if the Scion pins they'll be handing out.

Some panels:

Panels

SEM1686450: Freelancing for Onyx Path
Crowne Plaza Hotel Indianapolis-Downtown, Grand Central Ballroom
Thursday 2:00pm in EDT

SEM1686451: Storytelling Tips & Tricks for Onyx Path Games
Crowne Plaza Hotel Indianapolis-Downtown-Pennsylvania Station A
Thursday 5:00pm in EDT

SEM1686453: What is Chronicles of Darkness?
Crowne Plaza Hotel Indianapolis, Grand Central Ballroom A
Friday 3:00pm in EDT

SEM1686454: What is Dark Eras?
Crowne Plaza Hotel Indianapolis-Downtown, Grand Central Ballroom D
Saturday 10:00am in EDT