Dungeon Exploration.

>>48460996

B/X

>>48460996

Dungeon World and Donjon are both good.

BD&D.

Get the Rules Cyclopedia and pick and choose which rules you want to use.

>>48460996
Any 0e-based OSR system. I would recommend Lamentations of the Flame Princess or Swords & Wizardry Complete. You can ask for more information in the OSR General here: >>48409511
>>48461025
Never played Donjon, but Dungeon World isn't as good as just playing an old school system.

>>48460996
How hipster am I because I bought Maze of the Blue Medusa?

>>48461077

Donjon is just a random generator with lots of random dungeon generating stuff

>>48461082
It's not hipster to like awesome things. I have a pirated PDF and would buy it if I had the money.

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Dungeon World

It's pretty much objectively one of the best currently out there. It has fast easy to use mechsnics and is perfect for beginners, it's a lot cheaper than most of these other rules bloated systems that cost fifty dollars. There is no reason for extra rules when it is he role playing that matters. Dungeon World is fast and innovative and still feels exactly like the spirit of ADND before DnD 3.5 destroyed the hobby and ruined a generation of role players.

>>48461015
Came here to post this.

>>48461131
Doesn't it have all kinds of crap that's mechanically focused on your character's backstory and personality and "narrativist" (even though GNS theory is bullshit) crap like that, which isn't necessary in a dungeon crawl at all?

>>48461131
Literally a shitshow compared to AW. Enjoy that munchkin XP treadmill, watered down bonds, and lack of moves that build on top of each other cleanly.

The GM advice is well written but not unique, and it is worth reading over, but it is the single most overrated TTRPG on be market basically earning AW's same accolades over again for the same reasons.

>>48460996
I desperately want to do some hardcore dungeon crawls with Classic Fantasy. Combining RuneQuest 6's combat and "common sense" approach with AD&D turned out really solid.

It is super crunchy though.

>>48461166
>Doesn't it have all kinds of crap that's mechanically focused on your character's backstory and personality and "narrativist" (even though GNS theory is bullshit) crap like that, which isn't necessary in a dungeon crawl at all?

Yeah maybe it does! Please explain EXACTLY what the fuck is wrong with that? I'm waiting.

>>48461249

Shut the fuck up. Dungeon World takes Vincent Baker's fledgling idea and turns it into a true system using mechanics from the most popular RPG of all time. Dungeon World is an actual evolution in roleplaying games. It is UNEQUALED in its quality as a beginner's game, and for play much later on.

Last session in Dungeon World my human fighter wrapped a vampire in a bear hug and wrestled him out a window. This is real roleplaying we're talking about here, not babby 3.5 shit. Can you say the same about your AD&D games? Or any of the other shitty dungeon crawlers you are shilling in this thread?

>>48461312
OP wants "dedicated dungeon delving." That is, a game where you go in holes and try to steal treasure from monsters. A game that focuses specifically on doing that, and success or failure at doing so.

So a game that focuses on that kind of stuff is not what OP is asking for, as per the EIGHT words you had to read in order to be able to accurately answer the question, but apparently chose not to in favor of shilling your favorite system.

>Can you say the same about your AD&D games? Or any of the other shitty dungeon crawlers you are shilling in this thread?
Yes. Do you think that kind of shit doesn't happen in old school D&D games? That Dungeon World innovated the idea of player improvisation?

You seem incredibly butthurt.

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>>48461166
>>48461249
Don't feed the trolls.

Just like when this pasta shows up in the 5e thread, yes. The answer is always yes except for 3.pf games which no one will recommend in this thread.

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>>48461312

>>48461377
Normally this faggot refuses to respond to legitimate criticism, so it used to not hurt. I'll avoid the (you)s

>>48461393
>Whats the best system for dedicated dungeon delving?
>yes.
What?

>>48461015
I don't recognize that acronym.

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>>48461312
>Shut the fuck up. Dungeon World takes Vincent Baker's fledgling idea and turns it into a true system using mechanics from the most popular RPG of all time. Dungeon World is an actual evolution in roleplaying games. It is UNEQUALED in its quality as a beginner's game, and for play much later on.

>Last session in Dungeon World my human fighter wrapped a vampire in a bear hug and wrestled him out a window. This is real roleplaying we're talking about here, not babby 3.5 shit. Can you say the same about your AD&D games? Or any of the other shitty dungeon crawlers you are shilling in this thread?
Pic related.
>>48461430
Basic/Expert. It's one of the early D&D versions. Google for more info.

>>48461361
>OP wants "dedicated dungeon delving."

Yep. That's Dungeon World.

> That is, a game where you go in holes and try to steal treasure from monsters.

Again, Dungeon World does that. That is exactly what the game is about.

> So a game that focuses on that kind of stuff is not what OP is asking for, as per the EIGHT words you had to read in order to be able to accurately answer the question, but apparently chose not to in favor of shilling your favorite system.

Nope because I gave OP a recommendation that EXACTLY fits his criteria.


> Yes. Do you think that kind of shit doesn't happen in old school D&D games? That Dungeon World innovated the idea of player improvisation?

It did not "innovate" it as that is not the proper verb there, but it basically did invent it as a core roleplaying mechanic. As well as partial success and consequences for failure. There are many original ideas in Dungeon World. What original ideas does D&D have? Oh, that's right, ZERO.

>>48461502
>Basic/Expert. It's one of the early D&D versions. Google for more info.

It's also complete shit. Dungeon World takes everything good about basic / AD&D and makes it 100% cooler with mechanics that encourage roleplaying and backstory development, and reward players taking creative action. As opposed to D&D, where just to grapple a dragon I have to pass a shtiton of rolls. But it won't matter because I didn't take the feats that would allow me to grapple, and I'm also not the right class, so fuck me, right?

No, I say, FUCK THAT SHIT

Dungeon World represents a new era in gaming where you are free to play the way you want to; not the way some faggots at Wizards of the Fucking Faggot Ass Coast want you to.

You are such slaves it is astounding to me. Keep deepthroating WotC cock. Dungeon World is an evolution of roleplaying and will destroy D&D as it gains momentum, which it is doing more and more every day.

>>48461510

Without D&D where would we be?

>>48461541

The splats are incredibly restrictive in my opinion, I like the system, but feel I lack much customization of my character.

>>48461510
>What original ideas does D&D have? Oh, that's right, ZERO.
It invented RPGs.
>>48461541
There were no feats before 3e. You'd roll one time to grapple the dragon. As far as backstory development, it's not ABOUT your fucking history. It's about who you are now. About the fact that you're the asshole crazy enough to go into a dungeon and steal gold from scary, horrific things, and will live and die by that decision. Also, B/X was made by TSR, not Wizards. You can play a B/X clone (as found in the OSR thread) without Wizards getting a cent.

>>48461586
>It invented RPGs.
Before you get pedantic with me here, what I mean is, the invention of D&D was the invention of the RPG.

Please do not respond to the Dungeon World fag.

He is trolling. That should be apparent by now.

>>48461608
But I'm bored.

>>48461510
>Whats the best system for dedicated dungeon delving?

> best

>>48461586
>It invented RPGs.

Yeah and if Gygax hadn't invented them, the idea would have been created eventually. We owe him nothing. If he had died in 1970 the world would be a better place. Maybe we'd have gotten a better-designed game, like Dungeon World, as the world's first RPG, and RPG design would start 30 years ahead of where it started out.

>>48461570
>I like the system, but feel I lack much customization of my character.

Dungeon World offers more customization than any other game. Want to be an orc paladin? Homebrew it. Want to have a laser machine gun? Homebrew it. Dungeon World offers all the tools to be the most homebrewable game out there. It certainly doesn't force you to conform to its autistic rules the way D&D 5e does, using outdated mechanics like hit dice and healing surges that have nothing to do with what matters, which is the roleplaying and storyline. That is what matters, not your stupid character stats.

>>48461675
Name one thing about Dungeon World that:

1. Is objectively a good thing.
2. Wasn't already present in at least one edition of D&D that was released before it.

A dungeon crawl is about surviving or dying. It's not about your half-orc warrior's depression because he lives in an oppressive society or the fact that your wizard can't get laid. Nobody gives a shit.

It's about getting treasure and getting out alive, and you win or lose based on how good you are at playing the game. It is a game of skill to be won or lost.

Any game that doesn't offer you the chance to win or lose based on your ability to appropriate respond to threats and challenges is a bad dungeon crawling game, and any game with extraneous bullshit about the trauma your dwarf has because he saw mommy and daddy fucking is wasting player time on shit that DOES NOT MATTER.

>>48461694
>with what matters, which is the roleplaying and storyline
Story is only good in a dungeon crawl if it happens to emerge from the events which occur in the pursuit of the treasure in the dungeon. Trying to make a story happen for the sake of it is a surefire way to ruin the game. Which is why Dungeon World is a shitty game for hipsters who think PBR is anything better than the most drinkable pissbeer.

>>48461705

1) Bonds, which 5e ripped off from DW
2) Fast combat
3) Rules light (don't even pretend OD&D is rules light)
4) easy to home brew (unlike D&D's autistic constrictive rules)
5) Fuck you
6) Fuck you

You can not play Dungeon World and wallow in your 5faggot shit hole if you want to, but DO NOT DARE POISON THE MINDS OF NEW ROLEPLAYERS ON HERE LOOKING FOR GOOD SYSTEMS. THEY ARE LOOKING FOR QUALITY, NOT YOUR BABBY D&D SHIT. HOW DARE YOU RUIN THEIR ROLEPLAYING EXPERIENCE FOR YOUR OWN FUCKING SELFISH GOALS.

I fucking hate D&D players. I really hope the next ISIS attack is at a D&D convention. Fucking faggots.

>>48461791

I think its a fun simple game, I think it could probably be improved upon. Not sure if its best for what OP is asking though.

>>48461803
>Bonds
Irrelevant to dungeon crawling.
>Fast combat
Combat that takes time is only bad if combat is not enjoyable or interesting, which depends on the DM.
>Rules light (don't even pretend OD&D is rules light)
Aside from EXP, it is, though.
>easy to home brew
Old school D&D is easy as hell to homebrew.
>Fuck you
>Fuck you
I'm glad we're being civilized here.

>5faggot
But I play Swords & Wizardry.

>>48460996
B/X
Various OSR games; see OSR thread for more info
4e, if you crave the video game feeling

Avoid:
3.5/pathfinder (For reasons we all know)

Dungeon World (it's a "dungeon crawler" based on a system for hardline interpersonal drama, tries to fit things like meat-point HP into a "narrativist" system, essentially a lazy mishmash of two different systems that misses the point of both)

>>48461889
'In all the dungeon world games I played I only think one actually involved a dungeon.

>>48461541
>You are such slaves it is astounding to me. Keep deepthroating WotC cock. Dungeon World is an evolution of roleplaying and will destroy D&D as it gains momentum, which it is doing more and more every day.
You know there are more games than just Dungeon World and DnD 5e, right? You should probably try something less restrictive than class based fantasy focused systems like GURPS or Savage Worlds.

Yes I know your'e a troll. But you deserve a (you) you're going all out.

>>48461283
Mythras Fantasy will have everything you need friend.

>>48461925
Well, OP wanted good dungeon crawlers. If none of your adventures involve dungeons, you're not playing a dungeon crawler, now are you?

>>48461925

I've run a few DW sessions myself, and I'd say it does dungeons pretty well, actually. And unlike the troll I actually like Dungeon World I feel it's better for that than generic fantasy adventure, as the rules are geared towards dangerous situations where stuff gets out of hand quickly.

But I'd still recommend Basic D&D for most folks dungeon crawling -- it's what I came into the thread to say.

Well, actually it depends, I guess. If their idea of dungeon crawling is more heroic fantasy with protagonists cutting down bad guys left and right then maaaybe I'd point 'em toward DW, but if they want a more gritty Darkest Dungeons kind of thing where foolish people go down into the murder-hole and either get rich or die horribly, Basic is the shit.

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This system doesn't specialize in Dungeon Crawling, but it manages it fairly well.
The formatting, page layout, and page style are balls though.

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Anyone here ever play Dungeon Crawl Classics? I got the beta rules at Free RPG Day probably five or six years back, and I remember it seemed like it had some interesting rules, but I never got around to playing it.

>>48462012
>The formatting, page layout, and page style are balls though.

Huh know where I might be able to find this game? low fantasy it looks like? something i might be able to get into

Did the troll leave or is s/he just really putting a lot of effort in and taking time to make the shitposts just right?

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>>48460996

WHAT DO THE POKEBALLS MEAN!?

>>48462048

Try the OSR trove. If it's not there, post in the thread, and I'll upload it.

>>48462086

I think he left, I'm the reasonable Dungeon World guy.

>>48462103
Why is the dm advice in Dungeon world so fucking good?

>>48462094
They're doors. The colors mean different things like one way, locked, or opening only from one side.

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>>48462150
DM's advice in narrativist games is always good because those are the only games where the designer put any thought into helping the GM beyond "here's mechanics to referee, fuck you"

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>>48462094

>>48462010
>as the rules are geared towards dangerous situations where stuff gets out of hand quickly.
One of the complaints I've heard about DW is that it is just too easy to do everything. Something about a dragon's HP or something. I was only kind of paying attention. So is it super easy or crazy hard out of hand times?

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>>48462177

YES I GET THAT BUT WHAT DOES EACH TYPE OF SYMBOL MEAN?! RED MUST BE TRAPS BUT WHY ARE SOME OF THE POKEBALLS RED AND THEIR BOXES WHITE AND OTHERS HAVE HALF-RED BOXES? AND WHAT DO THE GREY POKEBALLS MEAN AND THE BLACK ONES?! WHY ARE SOME SIDES OF THE POKEBALLED COLORED AND OTHER NOT?!

FUCKING MAP MAKERS, THIS IS WHY YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO ALWAYS PUT A FUCKING KEY ON YOUR SHIT REEEEEE

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>>48462186

Oh okay, WAIT! BLACK IS TRAPPED AND RED IS LOCKED!?

but seriously, thank you.

>>48462150

I dunno. Some of it is obviously inherited from Apocalypse World, but in some places it's noticeably better. (AW notably doesn't bother to explain jack shit about what "be a fan of the players" means, which led many folks to think it meant pander to them or give them what they want or something.) I think it just comes from LaTorra and Koebel being good GMs?

>>48462183

There's also that. I really hate it when a game's dm section is like "I dunno, do some gm type shit or something. Make it up, you're in charge!" Of course I'm in charge, but what should I do to run YOUR fucking game specifically so it doesn't just fall over?

>>48462229

It's as easy or hard as the DM wants to make it -- difficulty is largely decided by what you're rolling and when, and the DM is in charge of that, within the rules.
If the DM is lazy, hasn't read the DM rules, or whatever. then it can be a cakewalk. But one thing I like is that I can really put the screws to a party in DW, in ways that would cause an instant TPK in Basic, and they can probably, with effort, pull themselves out of it.
The Apocalypse engine does escalation really well, and rather than death happening in the blink of an eye, you get a sort of slow motion feel of a train careening towards a cliff, and desperately trying to pull the handle and stop it.
Players are tough and can take a beating, but when the rolls start going poorly and the DM starts making moves, it becomes difficult for players to stop the downward slide.

>>48461541
You are exactly the reason people hate DW.

>>48462183
>narrativist
No such thing. GNS theory a shit. Besides, the AD&D DMG was huge and is so awesome that people use it for inspiration in running totally unrelated games.

>>48462313

He's a troll pretending to love DW. Stop feeding him.

>>48462042
>>48462042
I just can't really see what it brings to the table that's worth keeping over other, lighter retro games. I found it plays like a well worn set of someone's BECMI house rules: it probably worked well enough for the original audience.

The level 0 meatgrinder is amusing and is probably the only thing I'd directly crib, but only for a certain type of game (the kind where the player doesn't care if you decide his or her background and profession).

The tables of lelwhacky wild magic, fumbles and crits feel like imports of the very worst parts of 2e, and the combat in general just is complicated by things like the spellduels (get ready for more tables), dice chains and luck. The deeds are alright, but probably things i would just ad-hoc during play anyway if my players wanted to take creative actions.

The luck mechanic, as presented, is alright and reminiscent of hackmaster honor. For a game played as written it's kind of necessary as padding against the possibility of hitting a landmine result on a crit, fumble or magic table.

The boner for zocchi dice is just fucking stupid. I know you can get around it. That doesn't make it any less stupid.

With so much else to choose from, I couldn't find any justification to keep bringing it into long term play over any of my other nostalgia-motivated games.

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>>48462345
>The level 0 meatgrinder is amusing and is probably the only thing I'd directly crib

Go for it, DCC borrowed it from TSR's module N4 - Treasure Hunt.

>>48461694
>the most homebrewable game out there
This has to be on some greatest hits of the most retarded things posted on this board.

>>48462241
It's not my map. And the source does have a key. You'll find that key here >>48462186

>>48462103
Whats the OSR trove?

>>48462408
https://mega.nz/#F!3FcAQaTZ!BkCA0bzsQGmA2GNRUZlxzg!jJtCmTLA

>>48461541

>so fuck me, right?

Indeed!

>>48462408


The trove for the OSR general: >>48409511

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>>48460996
>dungeon delving
Dungeons and dungeon ecosystems make absolutely no sense, unless they're a fever dream pocket dimension created by a wizard with a boner for infinitely large dank crypts or castle basements.

Fireballs and dragons seldom test my suspension of disbelief. But dungeons... what are they even doing there.

>>48462314

GNS theory holds up when classifying game design types because some designers have bought into it - there's an entire sub-set of game designers who not only buy into it but actively try to avoid doing "narrativist" things in their games in favor of being "Simulationist".

(Like I swear to god this is the problem with a lot of Paizo's fucking bullshit as people are that company not only buy into GNS theory but feel that "narrativism" causes penises to roll up into their owners bodies and give them menstruals. Which just goes to show you that even a stopped clock is right once a day)

>>48461803
1. As a new person to the thread, Holy fuck you're butthurt.
2. Even if you don't like d&d, dungeon world is shit. It's a shit spinoff of a mediocre system.
3. It's a fucking storygame, not a role-playing game. It's not about getting into and role playing your character, it's about collaborative story telling, which is why you can influence the world as a player outside of your characters direct actions.
Storygames are fine , but they're a different type of game entirely. You play as a writer/director, not as your character. The focus is different.
4. Id rather play fate any other apocalypse world engine game than dungeon world.

That will be all.

>people still taking obvious bait

Man, /tg/ never learns, huh?

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>>48462464

What if the rooms of a dungeon were so large that they were mistaken for countries and their walls for mountain ranges?

>>48462464
Your pain will be legendary, even in hell.

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>>48462519

What if we learn but it's our fetish?

>>48461803
This is slightly updated copypasta, right?

>>48460996
>Best Dungeoncrawling
OSR Games, several flavors of unisystem, gurps dungeon fantasy, fantasy craft, openquest, rq6 classic fantasy, maybe harp, 5e, 2e, to some extent 3e.
Seriously anon, there's a ton of options, many of them quite good.

My personal favorites are gurps dungeon fantasy and cinematic unisystem.

>>48462519
>>48462569
>Nobody *actually* believes dungeon world is any good, and that pasta is very stale!
Op might not know that, and pointing out how shit dungeon world is, is fun!

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>>48461131
This pasta have been through the microwave too many times.

>>48461944
I agree, bro. The Classic Fantasy supplement made me goddamn thirsty for that Mythras release.

>>48462520
Okay, in the post apocalyptic Earth, rats replace humans as the flagship species, and a ragtag group of adventurers wander into the ruins of the Burj Khalifa. Rumor has it that an newly discovered, indigenous chicken/snake chimera has been spotted, and the king fancies the idea of his soldiers riding them into battle. Worst case scenario, they open a Kentucky Fried Chickensnake franchise. Little do our heroes know, a neurotic djinni has taken residence in the Burj, indulging in pre-war nostalgia. Can our fluffbutts navigate the illusionary horrors of 21st century life? What will they make of the Middle Eastern remake of Seinfeld? Tune in next session, where slap bass is rediscovered, and the party's druid reconsiders the appropriateness of her attire.

>>48462150
It basically is a good "how to GM a sandbox" advice. Forming memorable foes, designing living campaigns, etc.

It then gives the GM the rules to enable that in designing fronts and giving them their own sets of moves.

>>48462303
The problem is that modern D&D already has that same feeling of slowly losing control when things go wrong, along with a lot of game that are not D&D. DW really just makes it possible for a DM to fudge everything intelligently - because the DM has no dice.

>>48462842
So why does everyone pretend modern D&D is the only D&D?

>>48462842
>The problem is that modern D&D already has that same feeling of slowly losing control when things go wrong, along with a lot of game that are not D&D

While this is true, the mechanical focus on escalating tensions that's built into the apocalypse engine makes this stuff really sing IMO. But hey, that's just my opinion.
>DW really just makes it possible for a DM to fudge everything intelligently - because the DM has no dice.

Yeah, and I enjoy that. Running DW is a nice change from those other systems where I need to stat out a bunch of shit beforehand. It runs so smooth. (I still run other systems, though)

>>48461839
>Aside from EXP, it is, though.
XP isn't complicated. The worst it gets in the TSR editions is either 2e's individual XP bonuses or 0e's fractional system, depending on whether you find keeping track of odd things worse than multiplying by fractions.

>>48462378
It also appears in Greyhawk Adventures, if you want a slightly refined version.

>>48462889
Fuck if I know. I just pointed out "HP bloat" is there to slowly snowball defeats instead of making it feel like rocket tag. 3e failed miserably at it, 4e went too far pre MM3, and 5e has a good balance if you like lengthy boss encounters.

>>48462905
I just don't like DW compared to something that takes advantage of the social dynamics PbtA games are actually designed for. DW would be a lot better if it wasn't shoehorning AW stuff into D&D and just made a retroclone with BRP partial failure concepts.

>>48462889
Old d&d is clunky and lacks sufficient character customization options.

I prefer 3.pf (if i have to pick a d&d) because of the vast assortment of character options, prebuilt opponents, and prebuilt adventures.

These days, most of the time i lean toward something with point-buy creation and the ability to make/modify powers and magic on demand, to accommodate that.

GURPS and Unisystem are both good for that.

And i can homebrew for Pathfinder/3.5 pretty easily these days if I'm running that for whatever reason.

>>48462993
Degrees of success /failure are one of the best innovations in game design, for sure

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>>48463952
>bloat is characterization

>>48464414
>muh: pathfinder has problems so there's no possible chance there might also be things people like about it, or that they might choose Pathfinders shortcomings over the shortcomings of another game!

Are there things anybody should be able to attempt stupidly locked behind a feat wall? Yes. Are there balance issues? Also yes.

If older d&d had less clunky mechanics and ACFs/archetypes and more races (or reasonable point - based rules for making your own races), and more special abilities (or again, solid point - based rules for making them yourself)?

Maybe I'd be playing ad&d or an ad&d clone instead of Pathfinder plus various non d&d games.

>>48464582
I don't *need* half a dozen books of character options if the core rules are flexible.

If i want to build a mediocre swordsman who transforms into a huge dragon for short periods of time, can i do that in ad&d? Not really.

Can I do that in m&m, gurps, hero, and Pathfinder? Yes.

>>48461312
Hi DWirt

>>48461803
Fucking lol

Torchbearers.

>>48461312
>when the bait is just right

>>48464610
>can i do that in ad&d? Not really.

Elf / dual class fighter|Wizard. Cast polymorph on self.

>>48465388
That's a Wizard who can polymorph, not a character whose defining ability throughout the campaign is dragon transformations. Most of the campaign, the character you describe can't even do it.

Pathfinder he'll only have 1 form he can do until higher levels (Synthesist). In the other games mentioned you can build the transformation power right at the beginning, and both improve it and pick up extra forms as you level up.

Pathfinder isn't perfect but any means, but it does have the most plausible character options for building exactly the character you want in d&d, even if it also has problems (including the shit options to avoid).

Plus there are still compatible monster and class mechanics for any 2e setting i might want to run.

>>48465666
I mean, yeah, if you add more qualifiers like that, sure, but I'm going to go ahead and say that there's probably some method to do that in AD&D anyway. Shit got crazy with splats.

>>48465717
Thought it was clear I was going for a breath of fire thing, and that the main thing the character did was turn into scary dragon forms, and was otherwise fairly unremarkable.

I picked it because it's a concept I've wanted to play a few times and had to give up on because whatever system we were playing had no way to build such a character.

Point is, there's more viable options in 3.Pathfinder, which is why it's the d&d I play.

But you're right, 2e does have more options than most d&d.

These days i really do prefer a system that (instead of just a list of options) gives you the building blocks to design your own.

>>48465802
Point is, neither AD&D or PF are really "flexible building block" games, so it's kind of a sore thumb on your list.

>>48465666
I mean I understand where you're coming from, but when you have so many special [thing]s running around, it just sort of becomes a comic book version of fantasy. Concepts like that only work for me if they're actually woven into the game world in a meaningful way.

>>48465833
No, neither one has "flexible building block" chargen, but my point is that Pathfinder has enough available options that I am fairly satisfied even without it, and going to a more constrictive system like ad&d is less fun for me. 2e is passable but still more limited than 3.P.

Additionally, gurps dungeon fantasy, one of the other dungeon crawling games i mentioned, is compatible with the rest of gurps and it is a flexible building block system.

Though it's worth noting that they could have achieved a greater deal of diversity and better balance, in fewer books, in Pathfinder, if they had taken the flexible building block approach.

>>48465957
>Comic book version of fantasy.
I mostly see that as a good thing.

I mean, if i made a breath of fire type character in a d&d campaign (since that was my example), I'd work with the gm to work it into his campaign world. Maybe make an order of dragon shifter Knights, or a cult around them, or something, rather than being a unique being... Unless the gm wanted me to be the only one, then I'd come up with a "unique character" backstory.

More often than not its more like wanting to tweak a class to adjust the flavor and abilities, or custom facial writeups for something that exists in - setting but isn't a standard playable race, or whatever.

Pretty easy, doable stuff in Pathfinder, often without needing any homebrew.

>>48466030
Racial writeups *

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Lamentations of the Flame Princess, obviously.

>>48461102
No, I'm sure anon is talking about THIS Donjon: http://open.crngames.com/src/donjon.html

>>48466030
I actually wouldn't mind seeing all the options of AD&D/2nd side by side with 3.PF. It more or less invented the splatbook creep, 3.PF merely continued the tradition.

>>48466030
I mean I like comic books and all that too, but there's stuff like that you can do within a much less overloaded framework. Niche ideas, and such. I kinda prioritize the setting over other bits of a game, so I mean, I can see how that works, but I'm not sure I'm big on relying on the DM to rewrite too much because of something each player found in a musty PDF in the lost reaches of 3.PF. Limits what can be done elsewhere.

Though I think I'd be more into the concept of Pathfinder itself... functioned better. For something whose only big redeeming factor is flexibility, Pathfinder has a way of locking you into magical-items-per-level curves and other crude power processes that dictate the entire flow of a game (and have a couple of fundamental issues of their own).

>>48466079
2nd's major handbooks and such hardly gave you any rules to add onto something, a lot of the time, they just gave you more guidelines on how each class works already.
I mean, there got to be a lot more than just the Handbook series, but still.

>"Hey, what system should I use if I want to simulate people in a fantasy world robbing tombs and stealing from monsters?"
>"You need mechanics based around player characters circlejerking about their tragic backstories or else you're behind the times!"
>"No, you need to be able to turn into a dragon at will or else the system is too restrictive!"

>>48464682

Were you there when Virt put on his "obnoxious DW shill" persona, then forgot to take his trip off? That was hilarious.

>>48460996
Stripmining the entire thing from the top down

>>48466203
>"You need mechanics based around player characters circlejerking about their tragic backstories or else you're behind the times!"

Actually, DW has none of that. Like, explicitly. It has character relations, but they are a sentence each, and are only used (once each) for getting XP, and as a modifier for using one of the actions I forget the name of (it's something like assist/detract).

>>48466250
>for getting XP
That seems dumb.

>>48464165
I strongly disagree, and it's an obvious red flag that a system has been vastly overrated or is pandering to a certain type of player.

Degrees of failure has been a thing for as long as TTRPG DMs started finding better ways to tell stories (so in 1e), and the only system that encouraged 100% success and 100% failure in mundane tasks is/was 3.pf.

>>48466261
Meh. While I like it, but you can entirely remove the whole thing and no one will notice. You have many other ways of getting XP.

>>48466261

It's a light reward for moving character development along. You have a bond that says "I think Robard is keeping a secret from me." Later on you and Robard's player play out finding out his secret, or that there was no secret and you should have trusted him, or whatever to make that statement no longer true or no longer important, you take 1 XP.
It works pretty well, though it wasn't enough reward to make my autist player write a single bond ever.

>>48466261
It is. In the original system (AW) they slid on a scale of building positive of negative relationships, DW turned it into a meaningless XP grinding system.

>>48466250
Why not use gold for xp? It fits dungeoncrawling like a glove.

>>48466299
Because D&D did that and it's not THE NEW HOTNESS like DW shills think their pet game is.

>>48466299
It does.

Bonds are just one of the other things it also uses.

IIRC it uses Failed skill/Defeating a strong foe/Finding a large hoard/ Uncovering a big secret as the others.

>>48466299
It has that. In DE you get XP each session for:

Learning something about the world
Defeating a notable opponent
Discovering unique treasure
Resolving bonds

During play you get XP each time you fail a roll

>>48460996
A computer system running an oldschool roguelike.

Prove me wrong faggot?

>>48466308
Like I've said many times, DW is the most overrated game in the industry.

It's not that it is even bad, it's just that it's not innovative, unique, or particlairly well constructed.

>>48466337
NUH UH DW IS SO COOOL

DW IS BEST *FART*

>>48466358
I met one of the guys that made the system and he was super cool and the only reason I heard of it pretty early when I was new to tabletop, and this is me >>48466337

>>48466398
I don't think anyone is saying the creators of DW are awful human beings or wishing them unhappiness. In fact, the shittiest thing anyone has said in this thread was >>48461675 saying he wished Gygax had died in 1970.

Pro-skub/anti-skub shittery aside, Torchbearer is pretty cool for dungeon-diving.
Basically all the games systems are designed to simulate being a dirt-poor, desperate, crazy person who steals things from caves for a living.

It also discourages rolling for things, as every time you roll the dice in the adventure phase you're a step closer to your torches burning out, and a step closer to needing to eat again.
This helps to encourage the old-school experimentation approach to problems, rather than relying on ones character sheet to see them through

>>48466398
Just go play a fucking roguelike already.
Much better at pure dungeon crawl than tabletop. Personally I recommend Angband.

>>48466854
Cool. Find me a roguelike I can play with five friends that lets me improvise as much as D&D does.

>>48467761
>Find me a roguelike I can play with five friends
They just told you, Angband. It has a good multiplayer version.
TomeNet is also a decent choice. And just about any MUD works.
Maybe SS13? Bit of a stretch, but it's rogue-ish.

>that lets me improvise as much as D&D does.
The above (up to and including a fair chunk of MUDs) are very detailed and robust.
You can't improvise things, but you wont't always notice that.
>as much
Impossible within the medium.

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>>48461131
/tg/, we really, REALLY need to talk about the recent surge in popularity of "Dungeon World" around here, especially the trend of recommending it as a good system for "introducing" players to our hobby.

I understand that there is an obsession with being subversive and finding the most super specialest alternative to D&D possible, but having finally taken the time to read into Dungeon World and the reasons why this game has caught on around here and other forums I feel the need to be frank: this NEEDS to stop. I try as hard as I can not to be a "badwrongfun" style curmudgeon, but this is not a role playing game. Full stop. This is not a role playing game, and this disingenuous promotion of it as such is legitimately dangerous to this hobby. This is an exercise in self-congratulatory free form group storytelling.

This is a "game" where the danger of literally any challenge is by design arbitrary, not just from encounter to encounter, but from action to action. There's no actual combat or tactics at play, everyone takes turns basically describing a "cool fantasy battle" and resolve everything through "dodge danger" and "hack and slash" rolls triggered at the GM's whim. This is a game proud of being anti-structure, where the goal is to explain to the GM how many cool things your players do instead of actively overcoming any challenges in your way.

It's chaos. Consequences of certain failures are decided collaboratively. The GM is encouraged to be more of an antagonistic player than an actual referee of any rules. At /tg/'s suggestion I watched a few videos of people playing this. At one point the *GM* asked the *PLAYERS* what rumors they had heard in town.

I get that the people involved in this game by admission shill it everywhere, but please stop pushing this as a system for beginners. It's dangerous to our hobby and the behaviors it promotes encourages entitled players with disruptive expectations for how parties are meant to work.

Stop.

>>48468158
Now everyone gather round! This is copypasta has been preserved since times immemorial!
See how the incredibly high amount of salt has dried out the pasta, embalming it for future generations to marvel at

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>>48468158

There's nothing wrong with storytelling games, but they shouldn't pretend to be D&D+.

>>48461541
I like DW and I still think you're full of shit.

I guess I could ask here, but what other systems aside from D&D and its derivatives are good for dungeon crawling? I've actually been considering Mini Six with bits taken from the D6 Fantasy book for a dungeon crawl game.

>>48466265
So. You disagree that degrees of success /failure are good, and then go on to bitch about Pathfinder not having them?

I don't understand

>>48467761
Ntgb Neverwinter Nights with Infinite Dungeons was pretty fun.

>>48470126
>>48462659
Answered before you even posted.

Almost like that was the thread topic!

>>48471790
I think he disagrees that DoS is an innovation.

>>48471976
They are not in basic d&d. I don't remember them being a thing in 2e, or in old editions of rune quest.

Someone had to have come up with them some time since the first run of d&d. That's an innovation at some point in rpg history right there.

>>48471976
He says having degrees of success is badly overrated or pandering to a certain kind of player.

>>48471976

Except they are. Dungeon World practically invented them.

>>48462345

I've played easily 300 hours of DCC and I love it. The core classes are well balanced and I feel like the mechanics are presented in a nice way compared to some of the basic clones. Also, I know it gets flak for it but I love the magic system. I've never played it without using the purple sorcerer app, but I can see how the tables throughout the game could get annoying for a player though the Judge is supposed to manage that for the most part.

>>48468158
Post the vocaroo

>>48474506
I... No. No, it did not. Degrees of success, as a game mechanic, were, to my knowledge, "invented," by World of Darkness. Even at that, FATE had Raises, which are basically the same thing, before Dungeon World ever existed as a twinkle in the eye of its developer.

God, I'm feeding a troll. I feel so shitty right now.

>>48460996
I'm not mad, OP, but you got my hopes up that this would be a Maze of The Blue Medusa thread...

>>48472071
>I don't remember them being a thing in 2e
They were in some parts of 2e.

Ability checks (NWPs, etc.) were performed better the higher you rolled, but it was almost never relevant outside of opposed checks.
Interesting though, because those checks were passed by rolling below "your ability score +/- modifiers".

>>48476001
Several different action resolution mechanics mashed together in one game.

This is one of the reasons people say old d&d is clunky.

>>48474506
What's worse is I know this particular post isn't bait. I know that DW players are literally the Paizodrones of storytelling.

Next you will be telling me FFG Star Wars is the most innovating game in recent years.

>>48474506
>World of darkness 1e in 1991 has them.
>Unisystem had them in 96
>Shadowrun has them and it's first edition was in 89, and while i haven't played sr1e, I've heard it has them.

So degrees of success have been a thing since 91 at bare minimum, more likely 89 or before.

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>>48476938
>this particular post isn't bait

>>48460996
B/X as has been mentioned. I personally suggest Labyrinth Lord, which you can get for free! It is a truly lovely clone.
http://www.goblinoidgames.com/labyrinthlord.html

Also, Searchers of the Unknown or 1974 style.
http://retroroleplaying.net/content/searchers-unknown-rpg-collection
http://rpgsociety.org/1974-style/

Also, come to OSR general, we are pretty chill there and love dungeon delving.

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>>>48477330 which you can get for free!

Post cool dungeons.

>>48461944
>>48462769

I want them so bad, but I'm a cheap bastard who refuses to buy either of those until I can get my grubby mitts on a PDF first.

>>48466435
I want to love Torchbearer, but I just cannot seem wrap my head around the mechanics.

>>48466398
>>48466416
>>48466854
I swear to fuck this exact same chain of posts happened last time we had someone bait DW this hard.

>>48468204
Don't clap at the pasta you idiot.

>>48477146
Marvel Super Heroes had it in 84. Game was a clusterfuck but there were some fun times despite that.

>>48475613
It's never too late to make it one.
So...lich falls in love so hard that he starts radiating life instead of death. Also he writes terrible poetry.
Also there's crazy art exhibits being viewed by cannibals.
Among other great bits of insanity.

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>>48478975

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>>48480227

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>>48480240

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>>48480255

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>>48480316

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>>48480330

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>>48480362

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>>48480371

>>48480371
Cool, but...
Were multiple flailsnails necessary?

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>>48480425
Yes.
Always.

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>>48480417

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>>48480644

>>48479519
84 then.

Degrees of success are old as balls.

bampo

>>48474506
>degrees of success were invented in 2012
>What is RTD

So wat this thread taught me is that dungeon crawling a shit

>>48483971

>replying to yesterday's troll

Dude, literally no-one believes that Dungeon World invented degrees of success. The newest of the new might think it was a recent deelopment, but seeing as how DW is a hack of Apocalypse World, it's blindingly obvious that it didn't invent DoS, as its own parent game already did it.
That guy only posted that shit to goad retards into replying.

>>48483988
If your bait got any weaker it would just be a line floating in the water.

>>48484276
Its more of a comentary on this thread being awful

>>48483988

No, but what it should have taught you is thatt, if you do want to play dungeon crawling, then Dungeon World is the best game for the job

> light rules
> open play
> fast combat

You CANNOT do better than that.

>>48485818
Torchbearer.

>>48461510
World of Dungeons, the 3 page joke rpg made by John Harper does a better job of old-style dungeon crawling than dungeon world.

>>48485818
Awww, DW shill you woke up, did you have a nice bedtime? Did your mother make you some pizza rolls for din-din?

>>48485818
Dw still is still not a roleplaying game, and still not even a good game in its own category, storygamea, shill.