OSR General - Troll Gods Live Edition

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>>48409511
CAN I HELP?
Yes! In fact, Troll Gods Needs You!

The more content that gets submitted, the easier it will be for TroveGuy to keep up a regular release schedule.

Check out pic related for a general rundown, or the submission guidelines on the site for specifics.

http://trollgods.blogspot.com/2016/07/submission-guidelines.html

Resposting question that got locked away with last thread.
I made a doc full of houserules and classes from a bunch of blogs. Can I get in trouble if I do not sell it and only share it around online? I did include attributions to who did what.

>>48409602
If you're giving credit, linking back to the blogs you got it from, and not making money from it, I can't imagine anyone would raise a stink.

Are there any guidelines anywhere for converting a normal OSR-system character to DCC?

>>48410502
And by converting I am mostly referring to level changes.

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Asked in the PDF share thread to no avail.
Looking for this, much appreciated!

Hello folks, I am soon to be running a LoTFP game soon, what. I just want some simple, easy monsters/foes to be able to throw at my players from time to time, what system would be easiest to use to grab such things as LoTFP doesnt have a bestiary (except for the excellent Esoteric Creature Generator). Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated

>>48411898
S&W

>>48411898
Swords & Wizardry, Senpai
Check out the Monstrosities book in the /tg/rove

Anyone have the DCC Judges Screen PDFs?

Random Table Entries:

> What's stealing all the corpses from the graveyard?

>>48411898
most OSR bestiaries should work fine in LOTFP with minimal adjustment

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>>48412255

>1d4
1. The unknown underground village that burrows tunnels to freshly planted coffins to loot for meat and textiles.
2. Graverobbers under the employment of an affluent, neglected and lonely child. He plays pretend necromancer with them in his parents basement.
3. New chef in town with an absolutely astounding pot-pie you just have to try.
4. A powerful Golemist living on the fringes of the woods. He is collecting enough bodies to create a 50' tall Corpse-Golem to unleash physical and psychological hell on the local town.

>>48409511
Had fun contributing. Glad it came together so well in the end!

>>48412255
>amnesiac necromancer widow who keeps forgetting who her husband was and keeps digging up the wrong guy
>escaped flesh golem looking for new parts to replace what is rotting off
>town watchmen trying to stir up the village so they get paid more to watch overtime
>cult that believes souls are only freed from the mortal realms if the body is dissolved
>illusionist conmen who need new faces no-one will recognize in the big city
>savage humanoids who secretly sell the bones to various tribe's younger warriors as fake battle trophies
>a private investigator/witch has been hired and needs to interrogate witnesses from long ago
>bandits accidentally unleashed an ancient horror and they are placating it with corpses, but they're running out and will have to start making fresh ones soon

Hey guys! You may remember me from a few threads back, I asked which OSR game would be best for a group of guys who hadn't gamed for 2+ years. The answer said the most was Lamentations of the Flame Princess, so today I ran my first RPG in two years! Most of the original gang (except for one) who I had actually wanted to run this for bailed on me last week so I had to find new players. Luckily there were a bunch of guys I had met this past semester at college who were open to gaming, and we had a blast.

Should I tell you all the story?

>>48413220
of course!

>>48413251
>>48413251

Alrighty then!

So, a bit on the world and the lore: I used a homebrew setting called Pendowmin. I had drawn a shitty sketch of a map last week which my sister is currently turning into a full-on painting. I stole a lot of lore points from Christianity and Warhammer 40K. Basically, there were four Chaos Gods long ago who created the universe and magic, as well as four servant gods called the Starspawn. But the Starspawn had a good nature and overthrew the Chaos Gods, turned them into dragons, and cast them down to Pendowmin in a deep slumber. Time passed, and a lot of things happened. Firstly, the main religion, Hariosis, broke into four sects, each worshipping a certain Starspawn as their main deity. Some think the Starspawn will be incarnated to wage a final battle against the Chaos Gods, and others don't.

Also, there was a war waged by humans against demi-humans which lasted about 493 years (Note: That war marked the start of the Third Era, and the game starts 7 years after the war ended. So it's the 500th year of the Third Era and there's still plenty of racism). The war wiped out a vast majority of Dwarves, Elves, and Halflings.

Anyway, there's plenty more than that, but that's the basics.

The party consisted of a Fighter, a Cleric, an Elf, and a Halfling. Since most of the players were new to RPGs I started off with the most basic opening ever: "You all are in a tavern..."

So the PCs were in a small tavern when four very experienced looking adventurers walked in with sacks of gold and offered to pay for everyone's meals and drinks.

I was kind of hoping that someone would ask them where they had gotten their gold from, but none of the players did, so I had the leader of that higher-level adventuring party gather the whole tavern around to brag about how he and his party had found the gold (from a nearby dungeon). One of the players got the hint, and started to ask the other players if they'd want to form an adventuring party.(1/?)

>>48413505
Honestly, you can't go wrong with a Tavern intro, haha

>>48413505
The Elf, the Halfling, and the Fighter were arguing at first and spouting in-game racism at each other, which was great to see how easily they all got into character. But the Cleric calmed them down and said that they should work together and go find some treasure.

"Even if it's just for one dungeon, at least we'd have gotten something."

The players asked the other adventurer how much of the nearby dungeon he'd cleared out with his party, and the answer was that most of it was cleared but there were still some rooms unexplored.

At this point it was about 5 in the evening in-game so the players hiked for about a mile and made a campsite with the dungeon in eyesight.

The next morning, they went in and very quickly learned to check for traps and use a 10 foot pole; I had them go into rooms with disarmed, but still slightly functional traps which did no damage, and a room with a trapdoor that had been activated by a previous explorer.

As they went through the dungeon, they used the 10 foot pole to poke the walls and activated a secret button. It made a trapdoor open in front of them, but none fell in. It also caused the main door to the dungeon close (they couldn't see it but could hear it clank). At first they started to panic, but another, secret side door opened. They went inside and found a room with 3 Kobolds.

The Kobolds nearly killed the Halfling, who wasn't wearing armor, but he was healed back to full health by the Cleric. The Fighter then cornered the Kobolds and rolled a Natural 20. I went ahead and said all three Kobolds were killed by it, just because I wanted the guys to have a fun time. They all loved that and gave each other high fives.

In the next room, though, was a starving Vampire and a huge pile of gold. They fought the Vampire and killed it easily. They then got the gold and left the dungeon. But they also realized that they hadn't left the same way they came in. (2/?)

>>48413676
Luckily though, they were by a trade road. They hitched a ride with a trade caravan consisting mostly of Elves, so the Elf player was able to get some good roleplaying in there to convince the caravan that the others meant no harm and they just wanted a ride to the nearest town.

By the time they reached the town it was night, and the only things open were an inn and a small shop. They went into the shop first. I had actually made a prop of a blank scroll, and so the Cleric bought it with the intent of using it to write his own spells with it.

They then went to the inn and stayed the night. Next morning, the Cleric wanted to walk around town while the others ate breakfast. The Cleric PC was a Cleric of Hario (one of the Starspawn), and I happened to plan for the church in town to also belong to Hariosis. So he went in and talked to a monk there.

The monk noticed how ragged the Cleric looked. The Cleric then explained he had been adventuring with a party and that they had slain a Vampire. The Monk was taken aback. He told the Cleric of a prophecy which said that "when the creatures of evil begin to resurface, the Chaos Gods will soon awaken. The only ones who can defeat them are the Starspawn!" The Monk began to weep, saying that the End Times were coming because the Starspawn had yet to be incarnated in the way the prophecy foretold.

The Cleric promised that he and the party would find the Starspawn and help them destroy the Chaos Gods.

He then went back to the inn and told the other PCs what they were in for.

And that was the end of our first session! Lasted from about 6:30 to 10, and everyone had a blast. I plan for many twists and turns in the story.

I had lots of fun. It feels good to get back into gaming.

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>>48409511
So, experienced my first OSR game today. Ran half of a session of Dungeon Crawl Classics, just me and the forever GM, to give him a break and let him play.

We both loved it. Only got to the mouth of the underworld, but half the team is already gone and I tossed in an encounter with Death and the Deck of Many Things for added chaos--only every single card drawn was beneficial, go figure.

DCC is so much fun, guys

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>>48414049
Damn right it is. Did you run a 0-Level Funnel or him playing an actual class/race character?

Does /osrg/ ever have sessions or anything? If so I'd love to join

>>48414769

I'm planning on running a game very soon, about a week or so. But you will have to play with my very snowflake homebrew game system.

>>48414873

can you give me a more in depth description? I'm interested, of both campaign and a bit of a description of the system.

If troll gods is looking for some ideas of things to post, they could post hex crawl stuff. But specifically single hexes at a time that people could throw into their adventures. In the way they will post only one or two monster entries per issue.

I think I'll submit some now.

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>>48412430
>A powerful Golemist living on the fringes of the woods. He is collecting enough bodies to create a 50' tall Corpse-Golem to unleash physical and psychological hell on the local town.

So sort of like this guy here?

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>>48414941

Sure. The system is pdf related; Fearsome Gods. It features a to-hit and damage roll in one combat system, races not as classes, and a magic dice system for mages.

As for the campaign, that was a bit the part I wasn't sure of. I know I want to have all the PCs hail from the same village, or maybe all hired from the same baron to do some minor task, or something. I'm always terrible with the start of a campaign kind of stuff, but I want dungeons to be the focus so maybe just a kind of random dungeon crawl that can grow a story as it goes?

>>48415318
Oh and speaking of;

Can anyone take a look at the 10 basic spells I have for utility spells in here and tell me if I missed any of the real basic adventuring stuff? Because I tried to cover all the major bases.

>>48409602
Basically you can't possibly get in legal trouble if you don't charge money, because rules can't be IP. If you give credit for your shit you won't get into community trouble either because the OSR scene is chill.

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I want to run an idea past the thread.

How about taking some traditional video game-y concepts, and putting them into OSR? and I don't mean the gameplay or anything, but one specific thing I don't know I've seen in OSR games.

Basically- add socketable items and special gemstones or runes that can give properties to otherwise mundane gear. This gives you more stuff for the party to spend their money on; and can give some more small bonuses and personality to player gear.

Also; give anyone playing a Dwarf race-as-class a chance to socket these gems into items so they don't have to spend money on a crafter.

Also could give an interesting option of either keeping or using the gemstones, since they tend to be very valuable treasures (high value but small and easy to carry). Interesting choices for players to make.

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>>48414087
Ran the Sailors of the Starless Sea funnel, yeah. Had him make eight characters and I made another eight, with both of us controlling two people to fake a four-person party.

Of course, since he was the only player, he got by with pushing my peasants in front of all the traps. But now my guys are all dead, so I'm excited for what comes next.

>>48416609
>rules can't be IP
Mechanics aren't copyrightable, but their presentation through text or visuals is. The idea of rolling 3D6 to generate an attribute is not copyrightable. The rules text, "Determine each attribute by rolling 3D6," is.

If you are just straight up taking something someone else did and reproducing it without explicit permission to do so, then it's a violation of copyright regardless of whether you charge money or not. If you were right and "rules can't be IP," it wouldn't matter if he charged money or not.

Please don't go around giving people bad advice about the law. Even if a person is unlikely to ever get in trouble for it, promoting misinformation is incredibly irresponsible and damaging to movements that seek to reform intellectual property law.

>>48413788
The start of a new campaign is such a great feeling. Sounds like your players had fun. You'll have to keep us posted.

>>48415091
One of the better things in the last issue was that neat side quest thing with the fish. Encounters and locations seem to fit very well in the theme.

>>48417339
I could see it working if that's your taste. I tend to like my magic items rare, weird, and wondrous, but if you're playing a setting where they were more minor and mundane I could see that working as a system.

>>48410697
Found it right here:
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/102457/Perils-of-the-Sunken-City-DCC-RPG

It's less than $4.

>>48418027
Yeah man, definitely. I've been thinking of making a blog to document all the group's adventures. What do you think?

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Share some quality 1-2 page Dungeons Crawls plz.

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>>48419984

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>>48419984
>http://blog.trilemma.com/search/label/adventure

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>>48419984

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>>48420687
the only two I saved.

>>48419025
Couldn't hurt anything. If nothing else, your group will get a kick out of it later. Half the fun of this sort of thing is reminiscing about stuff after the fact.

Does anyone here have PDFs of the Designers and Dragons series that chronicles the history of RPGs?

>>48420969
You have now been in at least 3 threads. You could always google a torrent, anon.

>>48420969
I got you, senpai. Gimmie five minutes or so.

>>48421110
Thanks, anon.

>>48421110
Trove Guy, I'm adding you to my game - a mysterious but extremely helpful scholar with books on any subjects the players need so long as they pay with rare books, scrolls or tomes

>>48421267
It's now under /!GM Resources/Designers & Dragons
There are ultimately 25 items in there, including the four core books in every format I could find, and the platinum index in three formats. Also some ads? or something.

>>48421268
..Awwe shucks. I'm touched. You clearly need to name him Tigerious Gyre or some other /tg/ initials.

I'm a bit confused about healing rules in OSR systems and D&D systems in general. It seems like characters should heal at most 1 or 2 hit points each day of rest, but doing that can make a break in an adventure last like a week. Could anyone help me understand the justification for this? Is something supposed to happen during this time? Is it just a way to punish players and telling them to act more careful?

>>48421753
Different people will house-rule this in different ways, but I think the whole idea is to use it as a resource tax.

When you're level 1, 2HP can be a third of your total health, easy. So that's a big deal. If you're later level, you probably have access to potions, healing magic, and so on.

You don't want to make natural healing too strong, because part of the natural limit of "how much can be done on this expedition" is your access to healing supplies. It helps keep the pressure on the party and forces a point where the adventurers will need to go back to town.

Between adventures, though, it doesn't matter so much. Healing 1 or 2HP per day just means your adventurers might take a week or two off between one expedition and the next -- which is exactly what people would do in real life. Rest, blow of steam, spend their ill-gotten gains, etc. This is doubly handy if you're running a sandbox or west marches style game, as you can then turn around and charge living expenses per day between adventures -- which provides a gold sink that incentivizes people to get back out there and do some more adventuring.

>>48421581
>Tigerious Gyre
Done!

Does anyone in /osr/ host online games? I want to give old school a try

>>48423322
Any system you are feeling partial towatds?

Dear Cavegirl.

Update your blog.

Sincerely,
Anon.

>>48423788
Not particularly.
I just want to feel challenged and actually have a real chance of dying for once.
In modern systems even if you have an "unforgiving" dm they seem designed to keep you alive.

I want the "roll new characters until you're grateful a character survived to higher levels" feeling.

Give me the top 10 most useful Wizard spells for OSR

>>48412255
> What's stealing all the corpses from the graveyard?

> A furious widow swore her adultering husband would never rest in peace. A botched curse keeps the dead awake. They aren't being stolen, they are wandering the countryside in search of some grave that will grant them sleep.
> A sentient swarm of tunneling black beetles has devoured the corpses, one by one, consuming bones and all. A recent bout of plague has given them plenty of fresh meat to feed upon... and they've developed a taste for it.
> An adventuring party has tracked down the burial place of a famous bandit who late in life decided to go straight. Rumor has it that the only clue to the whereabouts of his equally famous treasure was buried with him, but they aren't sure in which grave he was buried.
> The land is a meeting point between two dimensions. Any creature, man or animal, living or dead, that spends two consecutive nights in the graveyard wakes up Elsewhere. Until recently, graves were not left open long enough for anyone to notice.
> Kharus, the servant of death, has made a terrible mistake and crossed over someone whose time had not come. Unfortunately, he can't remember who it was.
> The bodies are being stolen and sold to masked men who are members of a secret society. The grave keeper takes their money, even believing they are part of some dark cult practicing vile necromancy. In actuality, they are a society of debutantes, aristocrats, and rich provocateurs. The stolen corpses are for a transgressive art display on the futility of reverence.

>>48423322

Check out B/X for a pickup game.

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just reposting my tiny lil hexcrawl map.

How do I DCC it up and make it fucking cray?

>>48425579

Did you make this anon? It's really good.

>>48425814

They're from the 1-Page Dungeon Contest. There's a bunch of cool free shit there.

>>48409561
What type of magazine and content are you aiming to put out? Something like Dungeon Magazine where its a bunch of different small modules for DM's to use, or just different and interesting ideas that can be incorporated into any campaign?

Jesus Christ. Every thread on /tg/ about D&D that isn't the OSR General is a shitshow.

Hey /osrg/, were any of you around for the BugWorld threads that popped up here earlier this year? I've been planning on taking the setting and fiddling with it to make it more OSR. If any of you happen to have any of the art from those threads it would be greatly appreciated. I think the setting really fits as an OSR game, really disappointed that the threads died out.

>>48427680
True that. They either devolve into edition war bullshit or guys stroking over certain rules and builds.

>>48427103
Check out the last issue for reference, but it's basically a grab bag of ideas. Encounters, items, monsters, whatever. It's meant to be a creative inspiration and a drag-and-drop source of content. If you wanted to do one-page dungeon kinda stuff to include, so much the better.

>>48427680
>>48427867
I don't bother with other threads anymore.

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>>48428180
>I don't bother with other threads anymore.
I still check out the CYOA threads on occasion but beyond that, yeah, very few others.

>>48417339
That sounds doable. Maybe have it so that magic items are all powered by runes/gems, so the magic of the item can be transferred to something else if you have the expertise.

Also you could have gemstones for weapon enchantments and runes for non combat weapons, such as a magic torch or a helmet or waterbreathing.

>>48412255
1. An ancient, elder thing beneath the graveyard is starting to wake up, and is raising the dead. Why? To get the highly complicated ritual implements to put itself back t o sleep until the stars are right.
2. A vampire in fear of local vampire hunters has started putting corpses in coffins all over its castle to throw them off in hopes of a successful ambush.
3. They're starting to aggregate into one grave to complete a vile metamorphosis into a horror of flesh and coffin wood.
4. Damn local teenagers getting into black magic.

>>48429672
5. Thieves steal mystical sword and replace it with a replica. Sword actually had divination aura so town guard can track down thieves of the sword.

>>48429711

And the sword's magic was keeping the corpses in the ground, I guess?

Bumping with content creation:

Sideplots
> D100 secrets of a sleepy village

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>>48430550

Not what you wanted, but relevant. There's cults all over this table.

>>48423322
[email protected] thursdays 1700-2000 GMT, voice requred

>>48423322
Are you looking for a live game, or would play-by-post suit as well?

>>48431155
Not the same anon, but I would be pretty interested in a pbp game.

>>48431367
There are a couple of active pbp games over at http://snw.smolderingwizard.com/

>>48430550

1. Everyone in town sleeps 14 hours and are up 8 hours every day.

2. The villagers have accessed the dreamscape and are living out a perfect reality there while being mindless husks just doing what they're supposed to in the real world.

3. Shrieks from the underground caused by an unholy purge makes sleep difficult.

4. The sun is "artifically" white around the village, and so is the moon. This suppresses melatonin and makes the villagers tired and strained, but they refuse to admit it.

5. Everyone in the village sleeps on the job, but nobody admits it, not even to the other villagers.

6. All the coffee in the village is decaf. All sugar is artificial.

7. The villagers believe they are vampires, and sleep upside down like bats. There are no normal beds at all. They're not actually vampires and sleeping really sucks.

8. The villagers use dreams as fuel for odd rituals, and children have the most potent dreams. Therefore they keep the children asleep for the most of every day.

9. A house in the middle of the village is called the sleephouse, all villagers sleep there in a big pile. There is no such thing as private sleep.

10. A law in the village states that if a person sees another person sleeping, he must be punished through 100 whiplashes after being forced to be awake for three days.

That's all I can come up with for now.

InDesign question:

Is there a way to make InDesign make new text boxes automatically when I make a new page so I don't have to match up 2-4 boxes on ever page every time I add some? I feel like it's costing me tens of minutes each session collectively.

>>48432356
There is probably a more professional way to do this, but the way I tend to do it is to design my default spread before I put any text down at all, just putting boxes where I want them to be by default for the two pages. Then I go into the pages window, select those two pages, and then drag them down to the new page icon, duplicating them boxes and all. Then I drag those four pages down and do the same. Now I have 8 identical pages. Then 16 and so on until I figure I'll have all I'll need for the project. Only then do I go back and start placing text where I need it and linking boxes together for flow-of-copy. That way you only ever have to do the default layout once.

>>>48430550
>1. Everyone in town sleeps 14 hours and are up 8 hours every day.

Now you brave adventurers need to find out what the hell happens with the remaining 2 hours.

>>48432352
Anon.. are you having trouble sleeping?

So a lot of people have made

Somethingation of the Something Princess games. Has Raggi taken an official stance on people basically reskinning his game and selling it? I know Machinations of the Space Princess is actually a commercial product.

>>48433850
Well considering LotFP is a reskinned B/X I don't think he cares much.

can anyone post the highest resolution picture they have of that black and white image of a bunch of colorful characters standing in line behind a table of who I presume are two player characters? it is an image from one of the old d&d handbooks and I believe and I'm putting it on a "players wanted" ad for my local shop

> What's stealing all the corpses from the graveyard?
> D100 secrets of a sleepy village

Let's try this game in reverse. Suggest questions/topics for random tables!

>>48409511
The zine is pretty cool, good work. Looking forward to the next one.

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Are there any OSR games that use a d6 only? I have some friends interested in paying RPGs but I don't want to "overload" them with tables upon tables and dice of all varieties.

>>48424213
I think Permanency is one of the most useful.
Shape change too, since it grants you spider climb if you ... well, turn into a spider, and can also grant you flying.
I think I'll go by LotFP, so Read Magic is definitely needed.
Magic Jar, so you can extend your lifespan by sacking a younger body.
Animate Dead or Animate Dead Monster for that sweed shambling army.
Charm Person is also nice.
Comprehend Languages to have communication with everyone possible.
Contingency to have some safeguard that triggers on harm.
Creation, Major, to get utility things you need easily.
Mnemonic Enhancer, to get a few more spell slots.
Ah, damn. I wanted to put secret chest, Telekinesis and Teleport on here. And some kind of Polymorph. Polymorph others or Polymorph any object. I think it's obvious that Polymorph any object is more versatile and this more useful, so I guess I would take that.

Unrelated to that: What's meant with 'dweomer'? I read it here and there in LotFP, and I think I'ver seen it in LL.
And another LotFP-specific question: What is the duration of spells with the "instant" duration descriütion? Like Creation (Major, Minor)? I get that it takes effect instantaneous, but how long does the created object persist in that case? Forever (or at least until destroyed)

And another Question: Which OSR game would you actually recommend? I like, that LotFP is quite light on the rules, quick to learn and everything. But once you are firm in the rules there doesn't seem to be much expansion to it. No new classes or something like that. Which game is comparatively light and easy but has more content supplements? Like, not adventures, which seems to be the only thing there is for LotFP, but character options and such.

>>48435338
Swords & Wizardry Whitebox and Delving Deeper only use d6 and d20 dice, which could give a lightweight introduction to the different types of dice.

>>48435428
You could just steal things from ACKS and other BX/BECMI/RC clones

>>48435473
I'll check them out, thans.

>>48434876
1d6 random tables to make

1. 1d100 odd things in the night sky

2. 1d100 more stuff in pockets after exhausting yet another "stuff in pockets" table

3. 1d100 weird dimensions that portal just opened up to

4. 1d100 royalties and their personalities

5. 1d100 free items with every sale at the general store

6. 1d100 things at the very very top of the tallest tower in the city

>>48435742

>>48435782
Try again...

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>>48435338


>>48435338
dweomer. Noun. Alternative spelling of dwimmer. (fantasy, games) The magical aura on an enchanted item; or more broadly, the aura of a magic spell having been cast while active.

>>48436204
>>dweomer. Noun. Alternative spelling of dwimmer. (fantasy, games) The magical aura on an enchanted item; or more broadly, the aura of a magic spell having been cast while active.
I think you meant me >>48435428 . Thank you.

>>48435480
Alright, I'll look into that, thank you.

>>48435742
>1d100 odd things in the night sky
Nothing. Nothing at all

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Stepping away from the usual core abilities for a moment, what does one really need to track when it comes to their core capacities?

> Athleticism (probably called just that)
> Knowledgeably ("Knowledge" or "Education")
> Melee Combat Skills ("Combat" )
> Ranged Accuracy ("Accuracy")
> Social Skills ("Presence" or "Diplomacy")
> Sneaking/Intrusion skills ("Subterfuge")
> Wilderness Survival Skills ("Survival")

assuming there's magic
> Magic Potential (Probably called "Attunement," or something)
> Spellcasting
> Use Magic Devices

Going more the GoT RPG route of just having some basic abilities that are summaries of both talent and experience, would there really need to be anything else to track?
Not in a hardcore rules-lite sense either, where the goal is to have as few as possible, but more so to have them be more acute that your usual basic abilities, but more inclusive than a list of specific skills.

>>48436770
Should there be some sort of awareness or perception skill, or could awareness and knowledge of specific things be linked to the appropriate skill?
Such as looking for traps being subterfuge, tracking/spotting animals being survival, and gathering information being Presence?

>>48435742
elfmaids and octopi guy?

>>48436770
so ability scores with different names?

To some extent, all of these already exist in other systems. If you wanted all characters to be able to do things like sneak or use magical devices, simply scrap the rogue as a character and use a d&d ruleset.

>>48436770
> Athleticism (probably called just that)
strength
> Knowledgeably ("Knowledge" or "Education")
intelligence
> Melee Combat Skills ("Combat" )
strength, and add weapon proficiency
> Ranged Accuracy ("Accuracy")
dexterity
> Social Skills ("Presence" or "Diplomacy")
charisma
> Sneaking/Intrusion skills ("Subterfuge")
1/6 to succeed or dexterity as rogue-type
> Wilderness Survival Skills ("Survival")
wisdom

> Magic Potential (Probably called "Attunement," or something)
intelligence or wisdom, assuming you mean maximum spells
> Spellcasting
intelligence or wisdom, assuming you mean ability to cast. you should really just combine these two.
> Use Magic Devices
wisdom

>>48436833
>Should there be some sort of awareness or perception skill
wisdom.

I see no need for separating these into different categories, since it just needlessly complicates what already exists. Do you intend for these to be determined in character generation before class selection? If so, than you could scrap and the rogue class, and base sneaking and magic item use off of the dexterity and wisdom scores respectively. Perception could simply be determined by a 'roll-under' or '1/6+mod determines success' roll.

>>48437203
> so ability scores with different names?
Ability scores with the exact same name (They're the Basic Abilities and they have Scores, which work as modifiers in the conventional sense), but more importantly with more specific uses. If anything it's taking out core abilities and replacing them with general skills.
> to some extent, these already exist in other systems
...duh?

>>48437342
The point is to have all of the same abilities covered, but not in vague broad super-stats that cause your character to get better at casting magic by learning how to read goblin, or what have you.
It's also doing away with Scores + Mods and just having Scores which function as mods and are used to calculate the secondary statistics.

>>48437393
>...duh?

so I'm right? Just reword ability scores, dump the rogue, and save yourself the work. There isn't necessarily anything wrong with what you're doing, it's just already been done, or easily can be done for something that already exists.

>>48437520
The assumption that argues the opposite point of yours is that spellcasters generally are much more intelligent than other classes, and are bound to know more languages. If in your world that doesn't exactly apply, you might be able reason a change, but then again, your player doesn't HAVE to take extra languages, and doesn't HAVE to act like a genius due to his intelligence score. Scores+mod is an inherently OSR rule supplement, so I don't see a point in doing away with it if you're goal isn't to simplify the game.

I'd build further on these points, but I'm sure you know where I stand and where my criticism falls. It's been done, and can be easily homebrewed into a game to save you the effort

So, I usually play in a 5e game on Thursday nights, but my DM and one of the players will be busy this week, so I'm thinking of running a one-shot for the other two (plus maybe another friend or two to round out the party a bit).

What short adventure can you recommend to give them a taste of the wonders of OSR?

I was thinking of using S&W Complete as the system, just because it's the OSR system I know/like best, but it's also the heaviest version of S&W and I'm willing to consider other suggestions.

Regardless, please help me out.

>>48437930
Keep on the muhfuggin Borderlands.

classic OSR and all in one contained book.

>>48437930
If you think S&W Complete is too heavy for a one-shot, you could consider playing S&W Core or, even more minimalist, S&W WhiteBox.

>>48437930
Seconding this. >>48438053
B1 and B2 are the best intro modules, in my opinion.

>>48438053
>>48438111
The Keep on the Borderlands for a one-shot, though? The Caves of Chaos are fucking huge.
>>48438085
I don't know that it's too heavy. I just know it's been called too heavy in these threads before, and I'm trusting you all.

>>48438127
>The Keep on the Borderlands for a one-shot, though? The Caves of Chaos are fucking huge.
Even more: you could base an entire campaign on the Keep on the Borderlands. Still, it;s great advice: KotB has such rich content that you're bound to have fun playing it just for one night. Sure, you're not going to clear the Caves of Chaos, but that's not the point of the module.

I don't think S&W Complete is too heavy: it will take you considerably less time to set up a character than with 5e.

>>48437930
I'm going to say that B2 is pretty boring if you're already playing 5E. The Kobold>goblin>hobgoblin>orc thing shows up there a lot, right?

I'm not sure what else could be used as an intro to OSR though. White Plume Mountain maybe? Or Tower of the Stargazer if you want to try modern modules.

>>48437930
run Tower of the Stargazer using LotFP. It's pretty short.

Or a 0-Level DCC funnel.

>>48438342
White Plume Mountain is great but don't expect to play through it in one night as well.

>>48438342
>The Kobold>goblin>hobgoblin>orc thing shows up there a lot, right?
A bit. I've been wanting to run Tower of the Stargazer, so I'll probably go with that.
>>48438371
Alright, I'll do Stargazer and LotFP, then.

>>48438336
One-shots don't need a beginning and end. You never know, your players may love it, your DM may need another day off, and bam. Continue yours.

>>48438539
Exactly. My group has been playing KotB on and off for about a year now.

>>48437930
I'm going to be different and say In Search of the Unknown.

>>48437930
I'm a firm fan of Death Frost Doom

I have the idea to allow players to store magic spells in trinkets called fetishes that they can later cast- the idea is to give the players another resource that slowly dwindles as they go through the dungeon, as they can get back their spells per day but not fetishes.

Is there any good number I should be shooting for them to bring with, or should it be more like one per MU level kind of thing?

>>48439912
>I have the idea to allow players to store magic spells in trinkets called fetishes that they can later cast- the idea is to give the players another resource that slowly dwindles as they go through the dungeon, as they can get back their spells per day but not fetishes.
...Is the word you're looking for "scrolls"?

Well, in any case, it's been attempted once or twice and seems to work okay.

Got a long drive tomorrow, and I'm looking for some good audiobooks to pass the time. Any recommendations for /osr/ related listening material? Already thinking about getting some Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser stuff, but other than that I'm out of ideas. OSR-y music would also be good, if anyone's got ideas i that direction.

>>48440163
If you can get audiobooks about Conan or John Carter of Mars if you want pulpy OSR goodness.

>>48440214
That was my first thought, but I've already read pretty much all the original Howard Conan. I'll see what Burroughs I can find, though!

>>48440163
Look up "Appendix N"

Have a fun and safe trip, anon.

>>48440353
That's where most of my own personal reading comes from to begin with! I was mostly wondering if there was anything less well-known or especially good in audiobook format. I listened to some of the first Dying Earth novel, and even narration couldn't really help me get through it, so I know some stuff doesn't translate super well to audiobook.

>>48440163
Have you heard of the band "Freedom's Call"? Most of their songs seem very D&D/OSR styled.

>>48436770
The issue with broad groups of skills and having a discrete knowledge section is that it doesn't always make a distinction between theoretical knowledge (i.e. knowing how to skin a rabbit) and actual practical experience (actually having skinned a rabbit).

The other issue is that some of these groups are a little uneven. Wilderness Survival often gets lumped into one undifferentiated mass, but can encompass some pretty diverse skill sets, like camp discipline, latrines, mountaineering, hunting, fishing, foraging, etc. which are arguably far more diverse than the other categories save maybe knowledge.

>>48440163
Mercedes Lackely has many fantasy related songs, most of which I believe are related to her books. they have a very folky, d&d vibe.

>>48440163
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsDz5qphC3c
This is what OSR sounds like, in my head.

>>48440163
Do Fafhrd and the Mouser. Skip to Ill Met in Lankhmar if you haven't read their stuff before. Their solo backstories are much better if you already care about the characters.

>>48441016
I've read most of Swords and Ice Magic and the first volume of the Mignola comics, so I'm already a pretty big fan. Is there a better place to start, given that, or just at the very beginning?

>>48441340
In that case, just read in (in-universe chronological) order, starting with Swords and Deviltry, and forward from there.

I forced myself to read in chronological order despite not knowing the characters yet, and it did make some of the later stuff slightly more rewarding, but Fafhrd's backstory was a slog up until the awesome moment about 2/3 of the way through.

>>48440945

YES

Stoner/doom is OSR as hell.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95h9BISMTuc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViWgZ9168a4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEsmxJvgcjU

>>48441442

It's funny that you guys are talking about that, because I literally started reading F&TGM this week, and looked up a lot of info on the best stories to start with.

Ended up going with Ill Met at Lankhmar, and following the list in this article:

http://blog.fantasyheartbreaker.com/2010/09/05/where-to-start-with-fafhrd-and-the-gray-mouser/

Great job on the magazine, Trove Guy, I plan on downloading it to my tablet and reading it at the park tomorrow!

>>48440163
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChmm356a5qe1luUsoatAgjA

How cross-compatible are Flame Princess and Basic Fantasy? They seem to use about the same scaling, and I'm wondering if anyone else has tried hacking them together before.

>>48442094
There should be a few tables (there are on the Grindhouse Box books anyway) that describe how to convert between them if you want to be pedantic about it and not just use stats and things straight off (or hang on, does Basic Fantasy use descending AC? In that case I guess you p. much *have* to convert). It's not that hard, it's typically trivial, in fact.

>>48442094
>>48442394
Uhhh, sorry, just realized I forgot to answer your actual question. Sorry, anon. The answer is they're extremely cross compatible. There are some differences that end up pretty major, but you can just pick and mix, for the most part.

>>48442432
BFRPG has ascending AC, which is actually one of my favorite things about it.
What are the major differences that you mentioned? The only thing I can really think of is the skill system, which would be pretty easy to hack into BFRPG, as well as fun.

To be honest, the more I think about it, the more a BFRPG/LotFP hack sounds really, really fun to do.

>>48439905
Shitty adventure by a shitty writer.

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Alright. How do I turn a tabletop RPG into a drinking game? I've got a mat and some simple figures and plenty of dice.

It needs to be quick, *incredibly* simple, and only use 2d6 for anything. Its for a housecrawl a bunch of friends are doing.

>>48443545
Find searchers of the unknown, set it up for 2d6, use exploding dice because when you are drunk its incredibly fun when you keep rolling doubles. Have everything you need on a single piece of a paper, have the super simple stat-lines for the players and monsters per-prepared because drinking and mathing don't happen. As for the drinking, you hit, you drink, you explode your dice, you take a shot or just drink, whatever, you kill something, you take a shot, you die, everyone else drinks and you contemplate your actions.

>>48443545

Just get Red Dragon Inn man. Your character takes a drink, you take a drink.

>>48444244
Not the person you were responding to, but I am going to have to buy that game now. I wanted to thank you since I always love to find a new fun game like that.

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>>48444146
>>48444244

It has to be even more basic. Even more so than SotU. What I decided to do was this:

There are 4 teams. Each is a race/class, just for flavor. They roll 3d6 stats down the line.They go into a dungeon. Each room is a test of ability (there is a massive iron bound door stuck. Use your strength to bash it down!). Roll d20 equal or under to pass. When successful, you chug a beer, move your Mini to the next room, and your teammate goes. The next room is a test of another ability. Roll d20 to pass, Etc etc etc.

Its less of an RPG and more of a simple dice game with chugging beer. I'll prolly do 10 rooms.

>>48443545
http://dungeonsanddrunkards.com

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what OSR would help capture the vibe of Stranger Things the most?

>>48445462

I don't think any game about delving into dungeons and slaying monsters for loot will be able to capture the vibe of "80s kids investigating mysteries" of the series.

I'd say go with FATE, WoD or CoC.

>>48423881
cavegirl has a blog?

>>48445462
I've been thinking about this too, and I was thinking of reskinning/adapting Into the Odd.

>>48445706
http://dyingstylishly.blogspot.com/

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goodnight bump

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>>48443407

Have a pity (You).

Aside from ACKS, are there any other games that have a more eastern flavor to the tech level?

>>48432356
make Master pages for each of your standard text box layouts. You can quickly copy-paste another page then delete the text for a quick and nasty way to do it.
Then you just create new pages with the master, right click on the page and "override master page items".

>>48415456
Not even getting there, but man, you need a proofreader. There's more than a few typos, and a good amount of vague passages that could be fleshed out. For example, I don't know how far you've gotten, but the entire Arcana section just isn't there after the first table. Wrack as a spell talks about dealing damage, but has no way to actually figure out how to do that.

As for the actual request:
>Transformation - dunno how far long towards a bestiary you are, but it would be nice to know exactly which monstrous abilities are retained. Also, a variant could be made a War spell to be used offensively, as how many stories (folk or otherwise) are there that have someone transformed into a frog or whatever?
>Restoration - I get what you're saying, but it could be made clearer for those of us who don't have 20+ years of RPG experience.
>Transport - how is the load carried? just dragged on the ground behind, on some magical floating construct, or something else?
>Conjuration - you mention item values, and a small list of items with values. Is this list the limit, or do you plan to have a full item list in the future? Your current one only lists the Loads, not any actual cost for the items.
>Levitation - Again, you could (and probably should) make a War variant that can be offensively used, leaving out the part about unwilling creatures on the Utility version. Maybe also have a way to soften the fall for the Utility version (though probably not the War variant...)

All in all, a few fixes should be in order, but yeah, I'd say the general bases are covered w.r.t. common magic effects.

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>>48449111

Thanks. I appreciate the help. I am still in the middle of editing everything, but your suggesting were added in this slightly fixed version. I don't know if I'll detail the exact uses of all these spells in such a restrictive way, it's one of those things that made me always like traditional DnD and Vancian magic is the restrictive rules, but maybe a sort of rule 0 passage about spell usage may be a good start.

How does /osrg/ feel about usage dice?

I really like the mechanic and I'm constantly changing items to use the system. It fixes a lot of equipment annoyances.

>>48445892
I don't update it much these days. Real Life happened to me.
I should probably get on that.

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So I definitely see merit in having an incremental to-hit progression where you advance more smoothly in one point increments rather than only periodically in leaps of 2 or 3 points. Assuming you agree with me on that, do you think it's worth doing something similar for saving throws, or is that more hassle than it's worth?

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>>48450980
In order to simplify things a bit, you could have something like this to guide advancement, indicating which saves you add a point to when you reach that level rather than having to deal with a line of numbers you have to check against another line of numbers for disparities.

>>48445462
Just roll a 14 or over to beat the demogorgon.

>>48450848
What's that, like roll a d6 after combat to see if you're out of arrows? Because I like that system.

>>48448394

I'm not sure what that means, but Labyrinth Lord's Crimson Tide setting is fairly Eastern. Yoon Suin is a full-on "tiger-headed opium nightmare" mysterious east setting.

>>48451773
Basically that. Rolling a 1 either removes the item or decreases it to a smaller die depending on how you do it. For arrows I let them roll each time they shoot one, with food each time they eat, with torches they roll each turn. I think it's a flexible system that ties in well with the whole adventuring feeling.

>>48452378

Like in black hack right? I think it's pretty cool. I love d6 for coins too, like "5d6 gold coins", and then you have to set up camp or be somewhere safe to count them and add them together.

>>48450905
Real life happens to everyone. Man, do I know.

>>48450980
If you're doing it for attacks, I don't see why you wouldn't do it for saves as well.

Personally I prefer the +2/X levels thing since it lets you have more variance amongst critter groups without making the math that much harder to keep track of, but that's personal preference. You can have a group of first-level Fighters lead by a third-level one and everybody uses the same numbers outside of hit points.

>>48452378
So they say, I buy a d8 of Food (for example), and then everytime they eat, they roll a d8 and if it's a 1 they decrease it to d6?
I think I could like that. Sounds interesting at least.

I think that could be used to make a whole abstract, but not too abstract, ressource management system.

>>48452982

Needs some math though. How much does a d8 of rations cost, versus a d6? Versus a d12?

>>48452998
Well of course it needs that.

But off the top of my head I might use something like the following.
Use the same for gold. So you have XdY of gold. And if you buy a dZ of anything you roll ZdY gold. So if you have 5d6 gold and want to buy 1d8 of food you roll 5d6 gold and then the remaining 3d6 of gold, increasing your chances to get a 1 on one of your 5 gold dice.
Or maybe food only costs silver dice, and every gold dice yields 10 silver dice of the same size. So 1d8 Gold = 10d8 Silver.
If you roll a 1 on a d4 that dice is gone.

The system might be totally fucked, but that's what I could think of just now. It's probably too much bookkeeping once a few of your dice get downgraded. 5d4+3d6+2d8+1d12+1d20 Gold seems fucky to write down and keep track of. But ultimatively you could choose which dice to throw on a aquisition, so on the d8 Food buying example, you could throw the 5d4+3d6.

>>48452998
Let's see. Let's say that one day of rations should cost 1 gp.
Then:
A d4 of rations could cost 4 gp, since it should on the average be usable 4 times.
A d6 would then be 10 gp. d8 is 18gp, d10 is 28 gp and d12 is 40 gp.

Does this seem fair?

>>48452885
THAC0's pretty easy to update every level because there's only a single value you have to reference, but there are five different saving throw values, so they're at least a bit more involved. I'm guessing that this is the reason why games like Labyrinth Lord, which advance to-hit in single point increments, retain the same "leaps and plateaus" method as old school D&D, itself. But that method can lead to some weird results when you start mixing classes with different XP requirements with at least a bit of variation in the XP earned by different characters (particularly if multiclassing and level caps are involved) and going in 1 point increments feels less artificial to me.

>Personally I prefer the +2/X levels thing since it lets you have more variance amongst critter groups without making the math that much harder to keep track of
That's a good point, though when it comes to chance to hit, monsters actually have smooth advancement, unlike player classes. And it seems like if anything, it should be the other way around.

>>48453094
That seems better than what I came up with.

>>48453094

Huh. In retrospect, this pricing should have been obvious, but wasn't.

>Does this seem fair?

Totally. Thanks, anon.

>>48452982
Is that really saving you that much trouble though? I mean, if you do d6, then gone (or 1 more until it's gone), then I can see that saving you some trouble. But if you're going d8 to d6 to d4... at that point, why not just record the exact numbers?

>>48453144
I'm with you on this one. It's become a popular idea in OSR circles to do usage dice so you don't' need to track stuff being expended, but especially for stuff like ammunition it seems like extra work for no real improvement. Instead of just erasing "20" and writing "19".. I'm now rolling an extra die every time I loose an arrow and then erasing my d8 and making it a d6.. then erasing the d6 and making it a d4. I'm not sure I gain all that much here.

>>48453526

I like it for torches and lanterns, since it means you don't know precisely when it will go out. But I don't think I would use it for something you could reasonably count in-world.

>>48453144
>>48453526
Fair point. I guess it would be a better idea to just have one die and the item is expended once you roll a one.

>>48411898

There's also the Basic Fantasy RPG book (which has a small bestiary section) and the Fantasy Field Guide (for same) which is a more extensive bestiary. They also have a downloadable article that gives advice on converting monsters from other editions.

>>48453684
I do like the idea of "1 more shot" so things don't sneak up on you quite so quickly. So instead of suddenly discovering that you just shot your last arrow when you roll a 1 on your ammo die, you instead discover that you're *now* down to your last one.

>>48453526
I personally would only roll for arrows after an encounter.

>>48445462

Into The Odd and Beyond The Wall both have things that could work. Into The Odd for being, well, odd/strange. Beyond The Wall for small village youth character generation being built in.

>>48453684
>>48453814
>>48453932
> Dude buys a sheaf of arrows to go adventuring
> There's a fight! He looses two!
> Rolls a 1 on ammo

My reluctance with ammo dice tends to be as a player not knowing when they will run out. My character would have known before he set out he only had two arrows in his bag. Worse is when you buy arrows, thinking you got a shitload of them, only to through bad rolls run out after 4. Was my character sold a bag full of twigs, or did I just not notice that there were only 4 arrows in there?

>>48454072
Depends on how abstract you want it to get with descriptions of combat and if damage for bows is actually 1arrow=1d6. My group's fine with d8+ amounts being lots, d6 being enough, and d4 being probably not enough, but we describe combat as a series of actions rather than individual swings and shots most of the time. Abstracting resources has to mesh up with how your combat runs otherwise it gets bag-of-twigs. Honestly if you want to track specific numbers its not hard with dice either, just use d10s and count down, write totals at the end of each session.

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How can one person be this fucking wrong?

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>>48454887
They were born in the long summer. They've never known anything else.

I want to design an adventure module based on a combination of "Keep on the Borderlands", "Isle of Dread", "The Savage Coast" and adding in near the end some domain management rules.

Any suggestions? The idea is that they go from levels 1 to around 12 to 15 or so in a wild and largely lawless area called "The Fallen Realm of Aerkost" which has vast forests, hills, mountains and swamps to explore as well as the only center of civilization, the city of Falinta.

>>48455155
It sounds good. I'd just start scavenging through different modules to steal content. Give it a reskin and throw it in your homebrew.

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>>48454887

>skills
Blatantly false.
>classes being too restrictive
To an extent with equipment, lore and stat requirements, but having fewer classes and no feats really help in OSR.
>levels and HP being too arbitrary
Well they have to be somewhat arbitrary, it's a game.

>system mastery
>Caster supremacy

These, sadly, are both true. OSR had system mastery in the form of meta game knowledge as to how to deal with obstacles and monsters of some types- even though it's completed out of character and there's no way your character would know that, it's part of the 'game' to do that.

And casters are still OP at higher levels. Changing XP requirements is a kind of stupid and still not very good way to balance them. This is mostly the fault of the developers for not improving the wizard's spells in terms of flexibility and per day usage but decreasing the power.

>>48453115
>>Personally I prefer the +2/X levels thing since it lets you have more variance amongst critter groups without making the math that much harder to keep track of
>That's a good point, though when it comes to chance to hit, monsters actually have smooth advancement, unlike player classes. And it seems like if anything, it should be the other way around.
That's because monsters have less variance than classed critters.

You meet 1d6 goblins more often than you meet a mix of goblins and orcs - however, what about a mix of low-level Fighters and mid-level Fighters? Or low-level Magic-Users and highish-level Magic-Users? That's a classic arrangement.

Also, it lets you keep hireling stats within a range.

More complicated games (or advanced ones, heh) obviously complicate things further. Multiclassing is weird and dual classing even moreso.

>>48453624
I am of the mind that knowing precisely when your torches, arrows, rations run out is better for strategy and suspense.
It gives players agency. They know exactly when they need to bone out.
Watching things tick down creates tension. Do we press on, or do we head back because we're getting low on torches?

Played Darkest Dungeon? That.

>>48457566
Then again, there is a lot of randomization in Darkest Dungeon. I think that stuff creates tension while the stuff you're sure about reassures you more than anything.

>>48457566
>>48457730
I think that's about where I sit. Especially the latter. The game is already so full of random shit and random rolls, a ton of ways for your character to be screwed that you have no control over.

Does the possibility of my equipment falling short add anything to this? I'm not sure.

>>48457785
Alright, I understand what you mean then. I thought you meant that not having usage dice would create more tension.

I guess it comes down to how good and willing the players are at accounting. My players (and me) constantly forget small things like erasing arrows shot so the usage dice helps a lot.

>>48457933
I think usage dice could be really handy in a game where you're aiming for a more heroic/questy kind of thing, because supplies aren't that important. When does the fellowship run out of food? uh. Whenever. When does legolas run out of arrows? When it's dramatically interesting. The focus isn't really on supplies because of the nature of the campaign.

In a hardcore dungeon dive though, or a campaign based on exploration, managing supplies is more important and a slightly bigger deal.

I don't think usage dice are a bad thing at all, I think it just depends on what you want to emphasize on the game.

>>48457982
I fully agree.

>>48453094
>A d4 of rations could cost 4 gp, since it should on the average be usable 4 times.
Not accurate. On average, a d4 of rations will be usable 2.5 times. So it should cost 25 sp. And so on down the line, of course.

>>48458146
Could you explain in more detail? I'm pretty shit at math.

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How do you determine sight range or visual range in a wilderness hex crawl? I can find precious little and it seems pretty vital to letting characters see the next few hexes around them.

>>48454887
Kek
I have to just laugh at this. It's so wrong it's not even irritating.

>>48458256
The odds of rolling a 1 is 25%. Therefore the odds are 75% that you get to keep the die after each roll/meal. One fail is enough to lose the die, thus we calculate the chance of succeeding a certain number of times in a row.

The cumulative probability of keeping the die is:
1st meal: 75%
2nd meal: 56%
3rd meal: 42%
4th meal: 32%
and so on.

On average then, we'll have lost it by the third meal.

I have to admit my initial estimation was sloppy, the average isn't exactly 2.5 times (and I've actually forgotten how to calculate it precisely, so hopefully an anon can help out). But the point is the rolls are cumulative, so just because you have a 1/4 chance to roll a 1 on *any given* roll, that doesn't work out to getting four rolls on average before you roll a 1.

>>48458269
Humans on earth can see about 3 miles due to the curve of the surface and our baseline stats. That's why most hexes in traditional crawls are 3 miles across, letting players get to a high point and see most of the hex in rough outline. You could do hexes at 1 mile each and have a sighting radius based on height, weather, wilderness skills and the like.

If I could find a good 0e psionicist class, as opposed to just the random chance of having psionics that replace class abilities in other classes, I may straight up remove the magic-user.

Though I'd also really like some more strange, ritualistic magic like in Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser. Once the Lankhmar box set comes out for DCC, I may steal the magic from it and slap it down in S&W with whatever minor changes are necessary.

>>48458275
It's basically somebody assuming all DnD is just like 3.x
Personally, I barely count 3.x as even being DnD, and 4th even less so. It just doesn't /feel/ like the dungeoncrawly goodness I associate with the game.
That said, 4th was a pretty neat little game in its own right. 3rd... less so.

>>48458146
Nah, you're thinking about it the wrong way. 2.5 is the average roll, but we aren't looking at the face value of the numbers. Rather, we're looking for the chance for a particular number to occur. There are 4 sides to a d4, so there is a 1 in 4 chance of a certain number coming up with each roll. Given 4 rolls, that means we'd expect a given number to turn up an average of once.

As a starting point, assume that the die gives you perfectly balanced results, with each number represented once. So you roll a 1, a 2, a 3, and a 4. One of each. Note that out of those 4 results, you get a single 1. Of course, you can't expect your results to be evenly distributed, but you are as likely to roll fewer 1s as you are to roll more of them. So you're still at an average of 1 result out of 4 rolls.

>>48458553
No, see here's where things balance out. There's a 57% chance that you will have run out of ammo by your third roll. But, this doesn't mean that the average result is less than 4. Yes, you are more likely to roll fewer than 4 times (57% chance) than 4 or more times (43% chance, obviously), but there's a small chance that you could roll like 10 times, or 20 times, or even 30 times, extending infinitely. So you can roll many more than 4 times on occasion, but never more than a few less times than 4, which balances things out to an average of 4.

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>>48459062
And just in case you doubt me, I simulated 10,000 different ammo dice chains, "rolling" each until it scored a 1. Then, I recorded the number of rolls that was for each, and took the average of those results, which approaches 4 (you're only going to get perfect results with infinite rolls, and 10,000 dice chains is still little enough that you're going to see a tiny bit of variation down in the decimal points).

>>48451037
Why were those kids rolling a d20 for spells?

>>48459399
4E?

I haven't actually seen the show, but there's certainly a few cases out there where offensive spells want a d20 to be rolled by the caster. Including the d20 system, for obvious reasons.

>>48459399
Because they paid about as much attention to the rules as people playing chess in TV shows do (you know, where they'll move a king across the board, or jump over another piece with a queen). Notice how there wasn't really any other play involved--no other dice rolls. The monster shows up, no initiative or anything, and one kid needs to roll a 14 to beat him with his fireball.

>>48459488
Nah, it was set in the 80s. I think they showed a Mentzer Basic book at one point.

>>48457982
I track expenditure one at a time for things that are used up in discrete batches; arrows, rations,, water supplies, flasks of oil, stuff like that.
I use dice rolls with descending sizes for things that degrade over time. You can tell when your rope's wearing thin or your torch is flickering, but not exactly when it stops working.

>>48460146
It would have never occurred to me to even track rope wear. That's both arousing and horrifying.

Anyone working on anything for the next Troll Gods issue? If so, what? It'd be neat to know what we have and what we'll need.

>>48459585

I thought the 14 was for some weird initiative system. Like, you need to get this spell off crazy fast before the Demogorgon can close with you and eat your face.

>>48459585
Not to beat him, to hit him. Like, maybe they houseruled in to-hit rolls for fireball?

Also it was a 13.

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How do you make fey true terrors in your game?

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What die roll do you prefer to use when constructing a random table?

A lot of OSR resources and blogs seem to use 1d6 or 2d6 tables (sometimes with subtables), but I've always found it way easier to do d100 or d20 tables since I can set up the percentage chances with more precision - if I want a common encounter I just give it more spaces on the d100 table. It also allows me to cut down on sub-table rolling by assigning variations of a similar encounter along a spectrum of 5% increments - I just need to do one roll.

For the people that prefer 1d6 or 2d6 tables, any particular reason why? I'm wondering if there's some advantage I'm missing.

>>48463835
Personally i like d12.
Enough options to be interesting.
Not too many options that i run out of ideas.
No need to make dozens of minute variations on one thing.
Aint nobody got time for dat d100 shit.
An excuse to use the d12.

Im not usually fussed about tweaking prescision ratios. I am lazy. Payoff isnt worth it at the table.

>>48459585
>Nah, it was set in the 80s. I think they showed a Mentzer Basic book at one point.
It's also "a demogorgon", from what others posted here - considering that the only version in BECMI is the Immortal one from '86, I'm going to assume that it's the AD&D one. Mixing the Monster Manual with Basic books wasn't exactly uncommon, from what I understand.

And considering that that version still has 95% magic resistance, -8 AC, and in any case is a deadly unique monster... Yeah, it's just them playing Movie D&D, where everything is made up and the hit points don't matter.

>>48463835
I've got a certain affectation for the d66 table, myself - it gets you 36 results, which is less than a d% but still more than enough for variety. Also, it uses d6's. Everyone's got a shitton of those lying around.

For random encounters I'm kind of interested in AD&D's 1d12+1d8 rolls - that flattened bell curve is really appealing, mathematically. It helps solve the issue of a small flat graph by giving you ranges of probability and also lets you have multiple "common" monsters in a way that a standard 3d6 bellcurve wouldn't.

>>48464236
>Aint nobody got time for dat d100 shit.
That's the thing though, a d100/d20 table can be short as two entries or as long as 100 - it's all a matter of assigning relative ranges.

You can also approximate a bell curve more precisely by assigning certain results more weight. For example: Wandering Monsters: 40% goblins, 20% orcs, 20% hobgoblins, 10% ogres, 10% trolls gives you manageable amount of options with a bell-curve like result, and you can come up with it in like 2 seconds.

>>48463835
It depends entirely on two questions.
1) do I want linear probabilities or a bell curve?
2) how many items are going on the table?

Using multiple dice and adding them (2d6) creates a curve. Results will clump around the middle. The more dice, the more rare any high or low end result will be.

If I want a linear probability, I'll use a single die where possible. The size of the die depends on how many table entries. This works anywhere from 3 to 20 entries and can still be weighted.

Because d100 is generally more of a hassle to look up quickly, I don't use the format unless I have more than 20 entries on something, or for whatever reason feel as though I need really precise weights (read: something needs exactly a 2% chance of happening).

I will admit to on occasion using d66 tables or even d666 tables just for the goofy fun of it. D88 is similarly entertaining.

>>48463563

Everything is illusions.

The spaghetti dinner? It's snakes.
That shiny new armor? It's made of tree bark.
That wooden log you've added to your pack for firewood? It's a block of ice that's now putting out your camp fire, and since you can't tell them apart you've got to throw them all out.

Also childlike fae beings of great power. You've got to do the imaginary tea party, or the fairy will turn you into a very real newt. There's a whole article about it on Goblin Punch, very well done.

Opinion piece:
Paladin is an unnecessary class. Clerics are already crusaders for their god, and in most editions are nearly as good as fighters in melee until higher levels when the gap between the fighter's AB pulls away from the cleric's.

It there any good reason not to just drop the weapon restriction on clerics, remove paladin as a thing, and then emphasize the crusader/templar aspect of the class?

>>48465598

I agree.

But my double opinion- I don't like clerics either. Take a fighter and fluff as crusader, take a wizard and fluff as priest or healer, take an expert and fluff as scholar or herbalist or inquisitor.

Just my personal opinion. I like distinct classes, and that helps.

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>>48465010
>>48459585
Just confirmed that they do, indeed, show Mentzer Basic -- the Expert booklet, to be exact.

>>48461531
Note: none of the spoilers spoil much of anything. I just used them out of an overabundance of caution, in case people didn't want even the slightest hint of peripheral things that they might extrapolate from to draw some vague conclusion about how things turn out.

>Not to beat him, to hit him.
I think he just said "you need a 13" (and yeah, you're right, it was a 13), but they acted like it was much more than just a to-hit roll, and note what happened later in the series when they fireballed the thessalhydra: he rolled a 14, and it died.

>It's also "a demogorgon", from what others posted here - considering that the only version in BECMI is the Immortal one from '86, I'm going to assume that it's the AD&D one.
Yeah, I do think '86 is too late. At the end of the show, they talk about maybe getting an Atari for Christmas, which I'm gonna assume is a 2600. By '86 the NES was out, we're talking about something that's happening after all the stuff in the show and they faced the demogorgon at the beginning, and they probably wouldn't have gotten the Immortals set the instant it came out. You could be right that they're using the Monster Manual with Basic--though there is no evidence of any hardback books that I can recall--or that they weren't actually using the booklets he had in his binder for that matter. Still, somebody on the internet claimed that the demogorgon has been around since '75, so maybe they're using some OD&D version of Demogorgon from Dragon Magazine or something.

>>48465598
I don't think we need to boost the fighting ability of clerics by giving them access to magic swords (and generally boosting their damage with mundane weapons, for that matter). As you said, they already fight almost as well as fighters and we don't need to narrow the gap.

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>>48465665
The Vale of Shadows is supposedly from Forgotten Realms though?

>>48451008
So nobody is like: "that's a terrible idea"?

>>48465636
>expert
Why include a thief-alike rather than just gutting the class and spreading the giblets to the magic-user and fighting-man?

Or, y'know, kill off the skill system entirely and just let the classes do whatever makes sense.

>>48465665
>which I'm gonna assume is a 2600

Actually the 7800 came out in 86, but honestly I think the writers just didn't give a fuck, or couldn't get a license to use Nintendo.

>>48465636
I'm a big S&S kind of person, so my games usually work better with fighter, thief, and mage as archetypes.. but if you're in a setting where divine magic is a thing, then clerics are appropriate to some degree. Fluffing a fighter or an expert doesn't grant them influence with the dead or healing abilities. You'd have to do more fiddling to get the same archetype working.

>>48465674
It's hard to sell cleric as a crusading knight archetype if they can't use a sword. The idea of the "blunt weapons only" thing was extremely stupid from the outset and hideously mismatched with the fluff even in-world. You're telling me in a game that off the bat is like "no, you can be a priest of Odin" I'm not allowed to use a spear? The original conception of the game has the lovecraftian and Elric mythoses as options for gods I can worship, and you're telling me the old ones and the literal gods of chaos forbid spilling blood?

No. Every part of that is absurd.

>>48465716
At the point where you only have two classes, you have to start asking yourself whether there's a point in having classes at all.

Quick Question for LotFP:
The book says
>Fighters begin with the best combat capabilities in the game, and are the only character class to further improve in combat skill as levels are gained.
But I don't really see them being much more skillful at combat than even a wizard. The only thing that seems to improve is his HP. But his ability to fight seems to stay the same. I could not find any indication, that for example his class level gets added to to-hit rolls. the only thing I found is that he can take 2 stances (one giving +2 to-hit -4 AC and the other +2 AC -4 to-hit)

So, where exactly does the fighter "improve in combat skill as levels are gained"? If a Wizard and a Fighter both have +3 Str their bonus on the d20 attack roll seems to always be the same, that doesn't reflect the training a Figher (should) have at all.

>>48465728
>I'm a big S&S kind of person, so my games usually work better with fighter, thief, and mage as archetypes..

Mein Neger

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>>48465739

>>48465723
>Actually the 7800 came out in 86
He does talk about his friend already having one though.

>honestly I think the writers just didn't give a fuck
That's probably the case. But if you had to make an argument for something based on the facts, I'd argue against it being '86 or later. A counterpoint to this, however, is that his expert rulebook looks kind of beat up. Still, they're kids and I could see them handling the books somewhat less than gingerly, so maybe that wouldn't have taken that long.

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>>48465739

Got you senpai.

Page 7.

>>48465749
I'm presently developing a whole OSR system around Howardian style S&S with those three as the classes.

>>48465757
Oh shit. I'm an idiot. Always looked at the class page of the fighter and the combat section.

Thank you!

>>48465770
It happens. I think it might have made more sense to put the fighter AB advance on the class chart the way everyone else's class features are on their chart.

>>48465766

Nice. I'm doing something similar, going for a more Frietz Lieber/Moorcock S&S feel.

My thieves are more close to Tunnels and Trolls thieves than D&D, where they're a mix of Fighter and Wizard, like the Grey Mouser, and every character has traditional Thief/Adventurer skills, like lock picking and stealth. You distribute the points after choosing a class, using the LotFP specialist system, but thieves get a bit more. They're like a Jack-of-all-trades. I'm building the system focused around small parties, of 1-3 PCs, so I'm trying to make all the classes fun to play and self reliable without ruining the whole synergy between the class archetypes.

>>48465728
I agree that I think that limiting them to blunt weapons is silly in concept, but I'm talking about mechanics here. Keep in mind that clerics level faster than fighters. So let's compare a 12th level cleric to a 11th level fighter in B/X, both of them at 500,000 XP. Fighters have +2 to hit on clerics and about 30% more hit points. That's not insignificant, but I don't think that, by itself, in any way makes up for daily spells that look like: 5/5/4/4/3. If you want to put some sort of other restrictions on clerics, then by all means do it. But they don't need to be stronger in a fight than they already are.

>>48465825
We're going after a similar feel, in many ways. I'm working on a system to allow task-resolution without needing to tack on a full skill system..and I've reworked magic to be a broader thing to make it work more in an S&S fashion.

As it stands, everyone gets better at fighting, everyone gets better at task resolution (sneaking around, bushcraft, etc), and everyone has the potential to learn spells.. But fighters get far better at combat than anyone else, thieves/specialists get way better at the task resolution stuff than anyone else, and MUs are the only ones who can cast spells reliably and repeatably.

As a note, I can't come up with a naming scheme I like, as everyone can kind of do a little bit of everything to some degree. I'm almost tempted to go a little more new-school with the names and go with descriptors for classes rather than names.
> Violent
> Cunning
> Wise (Weird?)
Instead of the more straightforward (but slightly misleading) warrior, rogue, mage.

>>48465047
now tell me why any of that makes a significant difference at the table?
Not many tables are rolled on enough to make a bell curve have a meaningful effect at the end of the day.
Personally I just want something to happen. I don't care what and I don't care how often. What kind of person wants to see goblins more often than trolls? A DULL PERSON. THAT'S WHO.

>>48465860

I think new-school names can work, for what you're trying to do. Descriptors instead of class names sound pretty unique,

>>48465900
> hat kind of person wants to see goblins more often than trolls? A DULL PERSON. THAT'S WHO.

Not that anon, but that would be a good example of a place where a bell curve is pointless. On the other hand, if I were making a list of spell failure probabilities and wanted to have some that were kind of ordinary, a couple that were horrifically bad, and a couple that were actually somehow beneficial it would be entirely appropriate for you to decide to put the really bad shit on one end of the results, the really good shit on the other, and then the spectrum between towards the middle knowing that the dice will tend to congregate there.

>>48465665
Demogorgon was also in Supplement III: Eldritch Wizardry, but at that point I'm starting to wonder how the hell you get Eldritch Wizardry in the mid-eighties. Also, still strong as fuck.

The Forgotten Realms first got published in '87, but I know that Greenwood did some Dragon articles on it before then.

I'd chalk it all up to anachronisms and the prop department not caring too much beyond grabbing old supplements.

>>48465732
Ayup. I'm partial to dumping the magic-user and just letting the remaining fighter-esque class use scrolls and other magic items.

>>48465728
The D&D Cleric is Christian as fuck, unless you're playing 2E in which case it's so ridiculously flexible that I'm not even sure that it HAS weapon restrictions.

Case in point: Sticks to Snakes, Turn Undead being straight out of hammer horror movies, the holy symbol literally being a cross before they changed it (IIRC in response to the whole satanic panic?), the whole "healing touch" thing they've got going on, all the other biblical miracles, shit like that. They might've put a bunch of other pantheons in Gods, Demigods and Heroes, but they sure as fuck didn't do a good job with integrating them with the Cleric class. And then B/X and BECMI came along and made things all nonreligious with Clerics, leaving all the detailing to AD&D.

If you want a Cleric of Odin, don't just change the weapon restriction with no regard for game balance and call it a day - do something more like the Druid, which is a more "proper" conversion of the Cleric to a non-Christian setting.

Or, y'know, go mess around a bit with 2E's Specialty Priests and see if you end up with anything interesting.

>>48465900
A person who cares about the encounter frequency of weak monsters vs. strong monsters and can expect to literally use that same table for years in a megadungeon or other widely-applicable spot? Encounter tables are pretty damn reusable, and having some rigor behind your tables helps having a fun game.

>>48465949
> Ayup. I'm partial to dumping the magic-user and just letting the remaining fighter-esque class use scrolls and other magic items.
How do your players handle just having 4 mechanically identical fighters in the party? Part of the reason class-based games work is they let people provide different roles. The characters feel different in how they play. Classes are a short-cut that stands in for picking what your character is good at. If you only have one class, you basically have a classless system... but how do you then differentiate what your people can do?

> The D&D Cleric is Christian as fuck
That was exactly my point. The restrictions are (rather unnecessarily) in service to a christian archetype in a world that's clearly not christian, even in the examples given.

> If you want a Cleric of Odin, don't just change the weapon restriction with no regard for game balance and call it a day - do something more like the Druid, which is a more "proper" conversion of the Cleric to a non-Christian setting.
Could you elaborate? I don't see any reason a priest of odin would be restricted to leather armor and wooden shields. More importantly though, if the original point of discussion was "Paladins are redundant, treat clerics more like templar knights" they are never going to be able to meaningfully evoke the archetype if you say "you can't use iconic knightly weapons and/or armor."

>>48465716

The expert has enough stock in pop culture and myth to make it a distinct class.

It helps that in my homebrew their unique mechanic besides skills is luck dice.

>>48466016
>Could you elaborate?
If you take the Cleric and let 'em use whatever weapon they want, you're still left with an undead-turning plate-wearing Moses/Jesus hybrid that just also happens to worship Odin and wield a spear. Where are the divinations? Where's the illusions, the charms, the shapeshifting?

Fuck, I'm pretty sure that the fucking Magic-User would make a better priest of Odin. Just give 'em a spear and they're pretty much there as-is.

Fuck it, I'll go skim through the Complete Priest's Handbook (that's the one, right?) and see if I can't piece together some Priest of Odin.

>>48466125
>Fuck it, I'll go skim through the Complete Priest's Handbook (that's the one, right?) and see if I can't piece together some Priest of Odin.
Actually, you know what, fuck that I don't know nearly enough about how 2E works to make a proper version.

As an aside, I just peeked at Odin in Legends & Lore and it's kind of hilarious how they literally cribbed the whole Odinsleep thing from Marvel and also for some reason made him incapable of raising dead when that was literally one of the spells he bragged about having in one of the poems;
> I know a twelfth one if I see, up in a tree,
>a dangling corpse in a noose:
>I can so carve and colour the runes
>that the man walks
>and talks with me.

Resurrection/Raise Dead. Does it neuter the threat of the game? Seems like once you hit the level where you either have sufficient gold or a cleric in the party with the spell, character death is kind of shrug-worthy.

>>48466016
It's not about what characters "can" do, it's about what players choose to do. A big part of OSR was a rejection of the the post-3E "your options are what is printed on your character sheet" attitude.

>>48466680
> A big part of OSR was a rejection of the the post-3E "your options are what is printed on your character sheet" attitude.
Okay, sure. But even the LBB has three classes base, plus four races - effectively giving players six options to distinguish themselves from the rest of the party. Having different characters able to do different things mechanically is not post 3e. It was there from the very first breath of the game.

If everyone has the same chances to do everything as everyone else and there are no mechanical ways to distinguish your characters and the only at what point do we even need a system?

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Deep 1 : The Prison
Deep 2 : The Quiet Place
Deep 3 : The Underwoods & The (Giant) Hornets Nest
Deep 4 : The Witch's Swamp
Deep 5 : Raining Grottos & Goblintown & Goblintown Too
Deep 6 : Ogre's Lair
Deep 7 : The Maze & Somewhere Dark
Deep 8 : Veteran Village
Deep 9 : Dragon's Lair & The Well

D1 : The Prison
Signature Enemies : Crazy Inmates & Sadistic Guardians
Sight : Chains, bloodstains, grey walls of worn limestone
Smell : Blood and sweat
Sound : Echoes of tortures and lamentations of the desperate
Taste : Salted meat, fresh and unidentifiable meat

D2 : The Quiet Place
Signature Enemies : The Walking Dead and a Vengeful Wraith
Sight : Abandonned halls & makeshift graves
Smell : Violet, gases & decay
Sound : Nails against metal, rattlings of chains, dead moanings
Taste : Vermin, Unclean water

D3 : The Underwood
Signature Enemies : Wolves & Faeries
Sight : Overgrown plants piercing through stone, gardens
Smell : Moss, grass and bark
Sound : Strange birds chirping and distant howlings
Taste : Fresh berries & clear water

D3 : The (Giant) Hornets Nest
Signature Enemies : Giant Hornets & Their Queen
Sight : Hexagons and other patterns in paper & glue
Smell : sugar and wet paper
Sound : constant buzzing, only growing louder
Taste : honey and insect flesh

D4 : The Witch's Swamp
Signature Enemies : Shadows & The Witch
Sight : An old cottage in a forgotten marsh, muddy water
Smell : old air, old water, like it's the past
Sound : echoes of ancient words and melodies, her laughter
Taste : everything here is poisonous to those from Above

D5 : Raining Grottos
Signature Enemies : Giant Worm & Insects of Various Sizes
Sight : Odd Mushrooms and Rocks, lots of rocks
Smell : Something wet and terrible
Sound : A low echoing white sound, actually the worm
Taste : The worm or the many many many (tiny and bigger) insects

>>48466648
That's the point, though, innit?

Character death is shrug-worthy at level one because you'll just replace them with a new first-level dude who also happens to be the legal heir and thus keep the first guys shit, character death is shrug-worthy at level four because you just replace them with your third-level henchman or - in case they're also dead - a first-level dude who just so happens to be written into this here will and testament, and a ninth-level character who dies is just raised again so you don't need to worry about that shit anymore.

It's like how once you become name level and build a castle in the boonies you no longer need to worry about taxes, since you're now on the other side of the transaction. Or how you no longer need to worry about the dangers of the wilderness, on account of having a decent-sized army to go wargame with.

Also, once you're at name level your guy actually matters a bit more in the long run. Who cares if Joe McSwordsman dies, but if your Lord is gone forever then goddammit you put effort into that castle.


Also, it helps fix the experience math. Up until name level, getting from level seven to eight lets the first-level guy catch up to level seven - the flat progression after name level means that by the time you go from twelth to thirteenth they're at ninth, though. Henchmen also start falling behind more and more as their half-XP schtick no longer keeps them fixed a level behind you.

It all just serves to make the PC actually feel like they matter more when they reach name level.

>>48466877
D5 : Goblintown
Signature Enemies : Goblins & a Mage
Sight : Apocalyptic Carpentry, Upside Down and Insane Designs
Smell : Old Socks & Night Scares
Sound : Goblins talk backwards or in whispers when people are near
Taste : Various strange fruits and insects from the Raining Grottos

D5 : Goblintown Too
Signature Enemies : More Goblins
Sight : The Arena, The Marketplace, The Crazy Square...
Smell : Gypsy Fare
Sound : Carnival and Loud Music, Mirorrs being broken and Doors
Taste : Same as Goblintown

D6 : Ogre's Lair
Signature Enemies : Ogre
Sight : Dutifully crafted yet awful artworks
Smell : Badly cooked soufflé
Sound : Annoying whistling
Taste : How did he put that apple in this elf?

D7 : The Maze
Signature Enemies : Demon & Angel
Sight : Strange and ancient shrines to forgotten deities
Smell : A faint hint of despair
Sound : Distant choruses from Another World & Time
Taste : Nothing

D7 : Somewhere Dark
Signature Enemies : The Darkness
Sight : Shifting walls and corridors, deadly traps
Smell : Mildew and loneliness
Sound : Absolute silence
Taste : Nothing

D8 : Veteran's Village
Signature Enemies : Escaped Inmates & The Paladin
Sight : Anarchytown held back by fear of smite
Smell : sweat and unwashed bodies
Sound : Dirty jokes, curses and cynicism
Taste : Mushroom soup, mushroom "beer", some rats

D9 : Dragon's Lair
Signature Enemies : A Motherfucking Dragon
Sight : Huge amounts of treasures, a magical library, a dragon
Smell : sulfur & gold
Sound : the fake snoring of the curious, amused and evil beast
Taste : Nothing

D10 : The Well
Signature Enemies : None
Sight : A Pit to Unknown Depths Below
Smell : Childhood Memories
Sound : Solemn Silence and Echoes
Taste : Nothing

>>48466125
>>48466585
fwiw, I'm currently working on my own cleric overhaul. I'm using an extremely heavily houseruled LotFP, but the basic gist of my cleric is more of an anti-wizard and demon hunter. As in, their abilities specifically counter chaotic magic (M-U's and Elves in LotFP are Chaotic), undead, demons and devils.
They no longer cast spells, but most of the highlights of the spell list are special abilities now. All of them are optional. Each level you can pick a new ability or increase the effectiveness of one you have already. This way you can tailor the class to whatever specific archetype you want (healer, paladin, witch hunter, etc).

>>48467204
So the Monk approach, then? Skip the spells and make 'em static abilities instead?

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LotFP: 1-in-6 for everything, some classes get bonuses, Specialist can add points here.

DCC: No skill list. Anyone can try anything; d20 if they'd be familiar, d10 if not. Roll against DC. Thieves get bonuses to thievish shit.

Which do you prefer?

>>48467404
Lotfp.

Arbitrary target numbers are a pestilence on this land.

No skill list is good though. Just let players make up what they have an x-in-6 to

>>48467404
Are you asking about the systems as a whole, or the way thieves are handled in particular?

I lean towards LotFP for a few different reasons, including ease of play. I prefer LotFP specialists in concept over about any thief variant I've seen in an OSR game. I love that the one class can be anything from Indiana Jones, to an assassin, to a traditional thief, to a ranger, etc. Pre 2e thieves and most OSR thieves are very.. stiff by comparison. DCC at least gives you three advancement paths (based on alignment) but I would still way prefer to just spend those points myself.

Also, I hate DCs. Purely personal preference, but I hate them.

>>48467204
Neat. Will you share it when it's done? Because that sounds interesting to me.

>>48465728
I assume that the cleric given in, say, b/x is a cleric of a specific deity - there's a strong defensive/healy theme to their spells along with the 'no bloodshed' restrictions on weapons.
For different deities, i'd swap some of those spells out for something fluffy (a priest of neptune should get some water-based spells, for example), and alter their weapon choice to something equally restrictive but more flavourful (such as giving the neptune dude tridents but no slings, maybe?)

I'm thinking of taking S&W Complete and doing the following:

>no more magic-users
>no more clerics
>paladins can turn undead, but doing so means giving up lay on hands for that day
>add a psion class
>add powerful ritual casting that anyone can do if they know how, but that is dangerous and difficult

I'm hoping this will make magic more strange and mysterious to players. Thoughts?

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How do you feel about fighting abilities and thieves/specialists/experts? As in, do you like your thieves as what are essentially slightly worse off fighters or utterly incapable of combat?

I was thinking about a system that allows Experts to treat certain forms of fighting as a skill- but they had to specialize against a certain foe or with a certain weapon, and fighters didn't. They could deal some reliable, but low amounts of damage similar to how magic users can with cantrips in other systems, but instead based on a skill roll instead of a regular attack roll.

Any ideas?

>>48467704
Thieves should be able to fight in a decent capacity. They aren't soldiers, but they should absolutely be able to break a few knees. Backstab is pointless if they can't actually hit the thing they are attacking.

The .. combat styles thing could work, depending on how you wanted to handle it. I'd just be careful it didn't get too fiddly.

>>48467704
Personally I think the game is better off without Thieves, but if they need to be a thing I feel like the whole slightly-worse-than-Clerics thing they've got going is alright.

Being able to use a sword and backstab for large multiples of damage doesn't quite make up for leather armor and a d4 hit die - they're not worthless in combat, but to contribute they need to act in a sneaky way and take opportunistic attacks without exposing themselves to danger.

And if all else fails, well. They can join the Magic-User in the corner tossing daggers at anyone who comes too close.

They're an out-of-combat class. Not everyone needs to be able to contribute in combat, especially when OSR combats are so fast.

>>48467814
>Personally I think the game is better off without Thieves.
So do you not have locked doors, or players can only smash them open or leave them alone, or what? Genuinely curious.

>>48467834
The wonderful thing about telling the Thief to fuck off is that suddenly everyone can do whatever the hell they want. Maybe you smash the lock, or you break the door, or you find the actual key, or you pick the lock, or you ignore the door in favor of easier targets - there's a lot of options there.

>>48465665
Does anyone recognise the other book in the pic, the one on the left? It almost looks like a module, judging by the back-cover art.

>>48466904
>>48466877
Is this from something in particular? Because I like it.

>>48467893
How do you mechanically handle the picking of locks?

>>48467899
It's a BD&D module, I think? The first line specifically mentions the DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Fantasy Adventure Game, the two lines below being "Unknown)" and "Borderlands)" is pretty obviously B1 and B2...

This page here actually has a text that looks pretty damn identical, so lemme go look for which back art matches.
>http://tomeoftreasures.com/tot_dnd/modules/x2.htm

>>48467899
>>48468013
Actually wait, nevermind, that's X1 Isle of Dread. Because of course it is. The damn thing came in the Expert box, for fuck's sake.

>>48467949
X-in-6 chance, once per turn, you need the appropriate tools for doing so and if you don't have them then good luck. Maybe add something about breaking lockpicks, I dunno.
Not every door needs to be opened, and honestly for most doors being locked doesn't make much sense.

There's also my preferred option, which is secret doors. They're safer than locks, in some ways, although less so once they're actually found for obvious reasons.

Why are the majority of DCC modules level 1-4 and why isn't there a level 7, 9 or 10 module? Why is there only one level 8? What

>>48466736
There's a difference between the finicky restrictions imposed by some more modern games, and OSR's broad strokes, I think. OSR still values skill in play over skill in character creation.
That said, I'm ok with clerics being the class with the most restrictions on how they act and what they can do: you play a cleric knowing it's going to be the most RP-heavy class imho.

>>48467264
I can't believe it took me this long to realise that monks are just clerics with automatic abilities rather than spells.

>>48467404
Goddamn, I want those funky dice so bad. Sucks that it's so hard to get where I live.

Anyway, I enjoy LotFP's skill system a lot but I've started to like DCCs a bit more. I haven't really tried it yet but I think that "no skill list" is more fun for the players and thief bonuses make players feel more thievish.
Also, LotFPs language skill has been nothing but trouble for me.

>>48468124
They're a subclass of the OD&D Cleric for a reason, y'know.

I think that reason is mostly just religious, but it's a reason.

Is Mega working for everyone else? I get "Decrypting folder data" infinitely. Tried multiple browsers.

>>48467814
>They're an out-of-combat class.
This. If you want to play a character good at fighting, then the Fighter is the class for you. Thieves are about dealing with non-combat stuff.
Hell, I don't give the thief equivalent backstab at all. Firstly, because thieves shouldn't want to be in combat in any capacity. And secondly because a fighter should want to be backstabbing enemies just as much as anybody else.
That said, I can see room for a glass-canon type assassin character with backstabs, poison, misdirection and stealth but not much else outside of combat. Basically a 'violence before a fight kicks off' character rather than the fighter's 'manly violence' character.

>>48467949
>How do you mechanically handle the picking of locks?
Without a thief class?
Roll under intelligence. roll 4d6 if you've not got proper tools at all, 3d6 for proper tools or 2d6 if you've got the full set of gadgets and spend ages on it.

>>48468187
>That said, I can see room for a glass-canon type assassin character with backstabs, poison, misdirection and stealth but not much else outside of combat. Basically a 'violence before a fight kicks off' character rather than the fighter's 'manly violence' character.
Ah, yes, the Assassin.

So for those who are "thieves shouldn't be able to fight," what happens at high levels? Especially given that thief skills are meant to be like saving throws after getting the same base chance at things as everyone else.

Basically that seems to mean that there's nothing your character actually DOES that other people don't do.

>>48468135
It's working for me, but Mega is periodically spotty. Wait a day--or even just a few hours--and it'll probably be working fine for you.

>>48468034
>Actually wait, nevermind, that's X1 Isle of Dread. Because of course it is. The damn thing came in the Expert box, for fuck's sake.
Ah. Thanks!
(Not recognising the old-style art threw me off - I had the Mentzer boxes, with the new colour-scheme and art, including for X1. Or I *did* have them, until some jackass 'borrowed' my B/E boxes in high school and moved out of town without ever returning them....)

>>48468237
High-level Thieves literally get spells and their backstabs just don't stop scaling and they can read treasure maps and they become basically invisible given their high skills.

Seriously, a high-level Thief can climb up a wall, sneak around in complete silence unnoticed, and then stab a guard in the back - and the only thing they need to worry about is that last attack roll, and even then they get a hefty bonus to it.

However, none of that is COMBAT. If a Thief gets in a head-to-head fight, they're only slightly better off than the Magic-User.


Also, the saving throw thing still means that they're way better than everyone else at doing those things.

>>48468364
Thieves do excel in ranged combat though.

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>>48467949
You could implement some sort of rudimentary expertise system.

>>48468135
I'm having this problem too.

>>48468129
Yeah, Languages as skill are quite stupid.
I'd simply give starting characters a handful points to spend on languages, probably derived from their int.
Then have Languages progress through three stages:
0 - Don't know the language at all
1 - Somewhat able to speak (and read if in the same alphabet) and understand the language. Some details or parts of sentences might not be understood by the character
2 - Quite Fluent, errors practically don't occur.
And they spend those points mentioned to progress languages there. And of course start with 2 in their natural language.
You could of course adjust all that, according to how important languages are in your campaign,

Determining how much points a character gets might be as simple as taking the int modifyer. So someone with an int mod of +3 could be 'Quite fluent' in one langauge additional to his own (costing 2 points) and 'somewhat able to speak' in another additional language (costing 1 point)

>>48468609
I can see the logic in language as a skill. It means that everyone always has a chance when they encounter some strange thing to know what it says. The players will have never heard of Duvan'ku to have the meaningful option to select it as a language until the moment it's introduced in the module or whatever. With it being a skill, you wind up with a 15% chance to know any language as it comes up in the plot. When you think about it, even putting two dots into it is pretty powerful for the specialist, as you're going to be able to read 50% of all languages you come across.

The problem is, of course, that prior to sinking points into it, it effectively means no one feels like they know -any- languages.

>>48466648
>Resurrection/Raise Dead. Does it neuter the threat of the game?
Yes. Absolutely. I like games without them, or where you at least have to go on some quest to fulfill them.

>>48466889
Because people invest themselves in their characters and the threat of losing those characters make the game more exciting. With that said, I do like to give PCs a bit of a safety net in the form of a death check, or something like that.

>>48468673
I think that problem can be fixed by having a skill about deciphering words rather than learning the language. DCC has a skill like that for thieves.
And also, isn't there an item in Death Frost Doom that allows the user to read Duvan'ku anyway?

>>48468962
In DFD, yes. In other modules where it shows up? I'm not sure.

But regardless of that specific instance, outside of the most predictable gygaxian setting in which players can reasonably assume they will bump into orcs, kobolds, and so on, languages become ever more difficult to employ.

To give players a meaningful choice in any kind of homebrew, sword & sorcery, or otherwise non-standard setting, you'd have to create a complete list of every language they'd possibly run into and then tell them which they are most likely to actually use. It does me zero good to take Ancient Cthonic as a language when the DM has already more or less populated his sandbox and there are zero instances of it coming up.

>>48465598
>Paladin is an unnecessary class.
I like the BECMI Paladin. I also like the BECMI Knight and Avenger.

But besides that I agree with you.

>>48469031
That's why I'm against using languages as skills, just to avoid the whole hassle. I prefer players just giving a generic idea what their characters could reasonably speak, like a wizard or cleric knowing an ancient language or a guy who has traveled a lot knowing a couple of words of every one etc.

>>48469031
I think that a better solution would be to have the language skill be called "decipher strange language" or something. I can understand needing the skill for Duvan'ku and the like, but it's weird when a character suddenly knows Spanish because it just happened to come up.

Either that or be prepared to let the wizard have a decipher language spell ASAP.

>>48469117
> but it's weird when a character suddenly knows Spanish because it just happened to come up
I could see this going either way. Look at any tv show or book ever. You never know anything about the character until the first time it shows up in the story. In an OSR game you know nothing about your character's background until the first time you bring it up.

It doesn't feel that much weirder to one day go "oh, no, my character totally learned spanish in seminary" than it is to one day decide "my character was an orphan."

>>48468442
Cleric attack table, brah. Also, depending on the edition in question they may or may not actually have access to good ranged weapons - the AD&D Thief only has the sling, dagger and dart, for instance, OD&D's Thief can only use magical swords and daggers (so no magic bows, crossbows, slings or throwing hammers), B/X's Thief can use any weapon, and BECMI has access to all ranged weapons and all one-handed melee weapons.

Whatever they're proficient in, though, they're worse at ranged combat than the Fighter. They're better than the Cleric, but that's just because the Cleric has fuck-all for ranged options. They're better than the Magic-User, but that's the Magic-User.

They're alright, but I wouldn't say that they "excel".

>>48469357
The cleric attack table doesn't put them that far behind fighters, at least not in B/X, and at low levels they're the same. Plus the thief can pump up his Dex, meaning he's more likely to have a ranged attack bonus.

>>48469069
>Avenger
Why did that class never show up again? It was pretty boss, for all that it was an evil Paladin.

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>>48465766
>Howardian style S&S

Fuck yes!

>Mage playable by PCs

Well you tried your best.

Seriously though you should look at the Ritual Casting from Beyond the Wall, and maybe the Arcanist (I think thats what it was called) class from Iron Heroes that 3.x variant.

I personally don't like PC casters in my S&S, but I feel like that class did about a good a job as I've seen for a D&D ruleset.

>>48471941
> Well you tried your best.
Because it would be loads more fun if there were totally magic rules for sorcerers and sorcery was one of the big archetypes in the setting but players weren't allowed to have them because Conan didn't have sorcery.

>>48465598

Lets argue the reverse. Clerics are unnecessary. Paladins are a better historical example to use for a holy fighting man than the fighting abbots who weren't supposed to shed blood.

If we're going to use the hammer vampire hunter archetype, wouldn't a mage variant be more appropriate? Wasn't van helsing a scholar and not a plate wearing templar/crusader.

Also while the crusader archetype is strong thematically it's one of those ideas, someone driven by their faith and conviction that D&D doesn't enforce mechanically well at all. So in other words you can just have a fighter fluffed out to be a crusader and it probably more accurately fits the historical archetype.

Personally I'm fine with both. I have no problem with a 3/4 fighter 1/4 cleric mechanically, but I prefer a 2e kits or ACKS model where concepts that could easily be covered by the big 4 are given more weight mechanically.

Sure it can lead to some overly specific classes, which is what I'm interpreting your argument against paladins is, but shit theres always B/X or OD&D.

>>48471986

Were there any protagonist sorcerers or magic users of any kind? Serious question, I can't remember any.

imo one of the staples of the genre was that sorcery was evil.

>>48472161
Well not protagonist. But a 'good' sorcerer. I think in The Scarlett Citadel. That guy helped Conan to get back to his palace in time, by summoning something to fly him there.

>>48472161
Elric immediately comes to mind as a protagonist. Mouser was a failed sorcerer's apprentice and casts the occasional spell. The guy in the Scarlett Citadel. In Solomon Kane, the african sorcerer dude whose name completely escapes me.. and that's off the top of my head.