Imperium Asunder: not another /tg/ heresy

>>48140604
But this explicitly is another /tg/ heresy

Shit, ACTUAL old thread link: >>48120294

>>48140617
Yes.

A different telling with new characters and a new outcome in the same old 40k universe.

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>>48140617

>>48140617

It's not THE /tg/ Heresy. If you want them, go here >>48106503

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Crimson Warhawks

>>48140725
A bit darker but yeah, you nailed it.

If I had any painting skill i'd upload pictures of my models.

"Everything is in place, my liege. The warmaster has given the signal." The warrior was clad the colors of Enoch's own legion, but Enoch's small cadre knew this stranger was not a true son of the primarch.

"No. We had a plan. This was not part of the plan," Enoch chewed his knuckle nervously, as nervously as an immortal son of the Emperor could, anyway. "The artillery, that a was precautionary measure. A last resort."

"The warmaster has spoken, my liege. The time is now!"

"No! I can parley with them, I can show them the error in their ways, they'll see! I'll make them see!"

"I speak for the warmaster, Enoch! It is an ORDER!"

Enoch glowered at the liason. "You are not the warmaster, nor would obey that order even if you were."

The confrontation was interrupted by the sudden silence of the crowd, and Enoch's attention was drawn back to the arena. He smelled blood.Far too much of it.

"No... No! Zaul, keep an your watch on this meddling spy. The Judgement Bringers will not fire a single round until I give the command." Enoch jumped down into the arena where he could hear what could only be the insane cries of Garmon, and the shocked and confused shouting of the rest of the arena. He walked toward the action but with mere seconds gone by, Enoch heard a sound that made him tremble. The unmistakable whine of dozens of incoming whirlwind missiles. He trembled and shook in his rage, at the insult the warmaster had smacked across his face, and the pitiful waste of astartes life that was fractions of seconds away, at the insubordination of his sons. Before he could mutter a word, everything was deafened and loyal marines were being tossed about like children's toys. The earth literally shook and heaved under the abuse of the Judgement Bringers, true to their namesake and masters at their craft. And through the barrage came striding, resplendent in his hatred, glorious in his fury, the Emperor's Storm. Engerand.

>>48140778
"ENOCH!!" Engerand roared. A single word that carried with it volumes, and was all that was needed. Enoch said nothing as he drew his blade and rushed to meet his brother. The time for words was over. He had made his choice, and he would see it through to its bitter end.

and with that I'm calling it a night.

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Sky Serpents

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Angels of Light

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Here's a gift from your old father. A proper Legion Mk II Colourable. So you can make detailed proper Heresy/Crusade era Marines in your Legion colours.

>>48140823
Totally going to use this, thanks.

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Fists of Mars

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Undying Scions

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Knights Exemplar?

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Warp Raiders

>>48140907
Where do you do these?

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Paladins of Kor

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Oathsworn?

I'm making some of these up as I go along cause I can't find any info for them.

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To help figure out the Heresy and the relationships between the Legions, should we perhaps figure out who was where during the Great Crusade.

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>>48140942
>>48140962
Ah, that explains that then. Paladins look more like pic related, but at the same time I really like what you did...

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Judgement Bringers

>>48140982
I'll redo it

>>48140778
>>48140792
Hell yeah!

>>48140898
KE are white with a black trim, Maybe something fancy like a red helmet, How do you do these by the way?

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>>48140982

>>48141031
Thanks, anon. I love the way these look, but my virus protection won't let me use the Russian shit.

>>48141021
Program called chapter generator.

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>>48141021
It's a russian program called Chapter Generator.

Knights Exemplar?

>>48141062
Thanks, Looks great, And i'll have to check that out.

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Iron Hearts. It looks gold but it's supposed to be dull corroded bronze.

>>48135766
>>48135753
So i'm the fists of mars guy and i kinda feel ignored by all this, as my legion is heavily integrated with the cult mechanicus and hosts them in exile after the herasy. I don't really know what to say about it other than that i'm not sure if you're supposed to be an ally or enemy of man post heresy

posted last thread just as it died, also >>48140854
I love it, thanks alot for going through the effort to make it by the way as i tried to sort something out and couldn't make it work

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Bloodhounds

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Silver Spears

>>48141109
I agree, you should put forth some content so we can discuss what fits in the Asunderverse more aptly.

Im pretty sure the collective is with the traitor forces, certainly they are the Warmaster at the tournament.

So what would you put forth as an alternate to what you posted?

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Second Sons?

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Bohemoth Guard?

>>48140967
with the tournament and the hunt set up we already pretty much know where everyone is at the onset of the heresy

>>48141353
Im talking about before that, thats the point that almost everyone comes together.

But the galaxy is a big place, its possible if not likely that some Primarchs may never have met, or if they did met only a handful of times - being deployed to other sides of the Crusade.

The attitudes and relationships of the Primarchs would depend largely on who they worked with and such.

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What do you think about this? Switched up the colours a bit.

>>48141109
The Collective is an ally at first up until the heresy occurs at which point they side with the Warmaster. Thus the Collective would be one of the Fists of Mars most hated foe due to the enmity in their past.

The reason the collective remained an independent ally rather than joining the Imperium proper is that had they joined they would have effectively destroyed the Mechanicus's monopoly on all things technological. If they lost this they would effectively lose their autonomy and make the two headed eagle single headed again.

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>>48140809
>

>>48141190
Bad ass.

Also, what do you guys think Gengrat should drive around in? Stormhammer, Stormlord, or Mastadon?

>>48141525
love it.

Really gives off the knightly knight look.

Working on a Wikipage right now. How do you add a picture?

And so far as the Tournament goes, I'm thinking Xun brought:
+Tzolk'in Ahau (Chief Librarian) Illuyanka Chaac of the Threefold Gate, with a contingent drawn from the ranks of the Threefold Gate and a guard of Jaguar Warrior Terminators.

Working on the rest...

Is it ok to do writefaggotry about the tourney? or are we waiting on a more general consesus.

>>48141887
Write up something and post it if it sticks it sticks, if not maybe others can add or refine it.

>>48141914
I'll let it hang in the air for a short while longer.

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>>48140874
The Undying Scions are more of a dark purple. Otherwise you nailed it.

Terra writefaggotry incoming.

>>48142123
Awww yeah. Looking forward to it.

>>48141846
+Legion Champion Yukua Beifong, Lord of the North Wind and a contingent from the Vth Chapter.

Also, what do people think of this:
Xun Tohilcoatl landed on Tepectitlan, a bronze age world in the midst of an ice-age. Xun was brought to the lord of a kingdom and raised to rule. He became fascinated with the calendrical system and how the stars regulated the seasons.
In trying to understand how better to dig canals and set the planting season to feed his people, his close observation of the stars led him to experiment further with mathematics, already an well developed in his society (ala Mayan and Aztec math).
In improving the bronze age infrastructure of water wheels and the like, he ended up developing basic physics, etc etc. By the time he was found 100 years later, he'd managed to unify most of the planet and advance the infrastructure to a proto-industrial level.
After being rreunited with the legion, he became fascinated by imperial technology and the warp, which he tried to explain using a hybrid of the math of his homeworld and the expertise of the Imperium. (Xun is of the opinion that there are random, meaningless aspects to the universe, and Chaos is chaotic in the scientific sense.)
Anyways, the idea is that he's not quite in line with the Cult Mechanicum, though he probably is very close with the likes of Koriel Zeth, maybe he brings her with him on a campaign or two.
So he's not as tech savvy as The Fists of Mars' Primarch, but he does get a lot of it and is more inclined to experiment, for example, putting volkites on everything.

I'm also thinking that he'd be a good one to have experimenting with Imperial theurgy, trying to figure out how to leverage the power of the Emperor Ascendant against chaos, so I think him being a powerful psyker would work quite well.
The drawback would then be that he's quite polarizing. He's in favor of using sorcery and adamant about the God Emperor, which sets the parts of the mechanicum and the less psyker-friendly groups on edge, as well as ones who are less comfortable with the God Emperor concept.

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>>48142163
>Beifong

As Klaus stood on the bridge of the recently commandeered battle barge 'Shining Spire', the bodies of traitor marines and their serfs lay strewn about, and working the cogitators were his sons, Proudly displaying the cross sword sigil.

He scratched his chin and ran his fingers through his beard as he took stock of the situation, they had simply arrived too late, the Terran ground to air defences were active and there was no way he could land enough marines on the surface to put up a fight using conventional means, drop pods would be shredded and strike craft shot down, this left unconventional means.

He was a bit split on this part of the plan, it would either work, and it would work well, or it could end up getting him killed, nonetheless he gave the marine standing infront of the navigators station a nod, "Fire up the engines," he said calmly as Terra got bigger and bigger on the viewscreen.

He admired the view for a few moments the eyes of his sons on him as they awaited the second part of the order, finally he broke the silence, his voice connected to the ships vox system, "Reroute power from auxilliary and weapons systems to void shields and the engines," he leant forwards and gripped the railing infront of himself, "all brothers move towards the airlock, i dont want any of you on this ship when it hits the surface," he closed his eyes within the helmet and cut off the vox for a moment, letting out a sigh, now it all came down to timing.

>>48142176
So he's technical like how Vulkan or Gorrillaman was technical. Not one of the first guys you think of, but definitely makes nice shit.

And he's not the crazy powerful psyker like Magnus, his rules would be more like Lorgar Transfigured.

In a duel, he's fast. Kind of picturing a Taiji Master style. Or Bagua.

>>48142221
> Gorillaman
> My sides

>>48142225
You mean you don't know the myriad nicknames of rawbutt girlyman?

>>48142258
Never heard Gorillaman before, The gillman with the coat of stars is a favorite though.

>>48142176
God those names are hard to pronounce.
Otherwise I like it.

>>48142189
>>48142163
Yukua Beifong is known for his stubbornness and resolve to the point where his brothers chide him that he's perhaps of the XIIIth. To these jabs, Yukua simply laughs, as he does at most things,and practices his form with his massive glaive.

Others in his Brotherhood of the Blade use different weaponry, such as the curved Daota or the legion favorite Macuahuitl.

>>48142207
Looking good so far.

>>48142276
Mekleth. They use the Mekleth too. >_<

>>48142273
What's the matter? Don't you speak Nahuatl, K'ich'e, and Chinese?
(And maybe some Klingon.)

>>48142301
Thanks i'll try and have a page for the KE/BB up by tommorow morning, Sift through the threads and gather up the bits and pieces i've done so far.

>>48142221
Towards that end, I'm thinking of them being armed with odd weapons usually limited to the Mechanicum. Volkites are considerably more common than in most other legions. Some Heavy Weapons squads field weapons like Lightning Guns. The legion also fields many Sicarans and Predators, with troops almost always being equipped with a rhino or deployed from a Storm Eagle. Fire Raptors are also very common in the legion and are seen as flying symbol of the legion.

The legion often fields despoiler pattern tactical squads, and favors dedicated transports over either bikes or jump packs, with a particular fondness for airborne transports. Malcador tanks are also a common choice in the legion, prized for their speed and heavy armament.
There's also an elite terminator force, typically deployed by deepstrike for decapitation strikes. Not sure how to explain them, but they'd be like the terminator equivalent of destroyers, rad missiles launchers as an option, rad grenades, no phosphex though, macuhuitl in one hand, volkite in the other.

>>48142273
Xun Tohilcoatl, assuming Nahuatl phonology, is pronounced /ʃon toʔilkoat͡ɬ/ or "shoon toe-*full stop*-eel-co-a-tl"

Tepectitlan is "teh-pehk-tea-tlan"

the /t͡ɬ/ sounds halfway between a "ch" sound like in beach and the "tle" in beetle.

>>48142460
>Fire Raptors are also very common in the legion and are seen as flying symbol of the legion.

I don't want to seem clingy but the Fire Raptor / Storm Eagle spam was kinda the Warhawks shtick.

Doing the whole air superiority thing.

>is pronounced /ʃon toʔilkoat͡ɬ/ or "shoon toe-*full stop*-eel-co-a-tl"

thanks but ill probably just keep reading it as toe-hil-coat-el - its just easier for me.

>>48141190
Repost for thoughts:
One of the legion's most widely known campaigns was the Valsos Rift Compliance, about 20 years before Ullanor.
The worlds of the Valsos Rift were held by a recalcitrant human culture, mutated far from the genetic baseline by centuries of half-mad experimentation into something barely recognizable as human. The Imperium had been vaguely aware of a void-faring society in the Rift and had sent a rogue trader flotilla to investigate and negotiate. Thus, when the Behemoth Guard fleet dropped out of the warp over the fortress world of Kolgrad, it was with some idea of the enemy they would face.
Well aware of the welcome the Imperial negotiators had received, Gengrat dispensed with the more customary statement of intent and broadcast of a fleetwide oath of moment by approaching the world at full burn and initiating bombardment the moment the fleet was in range.
Detractors of the legion claim this as evidence of an unstable temperament, but the statement that the mutilated bodies of the Iterators made was quite clear. The time for talk was over, and Gengrat was a man of few words.
The skies of Kolgrad blazed as melta torpedoes detonated orbital weapons platforms, even as others fell to boarding parties of the notorious terminator clad Lamashtu, deployed from teleportarium into the midst of the platform's command bridge, or deposited on the outer hull to bore their way inside with melta-torches and chain blades, slaughtering even as compartments were vented to the outer void. The defenders of Kolgrad had been entirely unprepared for the violence of the attack and even as their defenses tried to compensate, even as the Ghidorah Rex, flagship of the legion plowed its way through frigate picket lines deployed to shield the orbital facilities from the legion's wrath.
Even as the orbital battle turned into a slaughter, the orbiting cruisers unleashed their deadly payloads. Kolgrad was virus-bombed in the opening hour of the engagement.

>>48142562
Even as the atmosphere burned, drop pods descended, securing a landing zone for the armor. Encased in their legion plate, the legionaries were proof against the searing, unbreathable toxin fog the atmostphere had become. With the foe reeling from the disproprtionate violence of the assault, customized and void shielded mastodons, decorated with the aspect of a snarling beast thundered across the plains towards fortress walls, now cleansed of life by the life-eater virus. What fire came from the bunkers glanced harmlessly off of void shields. Where bulkheads had been sealed in time, Mastadon prows rammed through metal walls and unleashed the Behemoth Guard breaching teams into their midst to gun down the survivors.
The only significant obstacle on the planet was the central fortress on the planet's southern continent. More a mountain clad in adamantium than anything else, the higher security protocols had protected the occupants from the initial blast and potent void-hardened weapons arrays protected the fortress from an armored assault by land.
For this pinnacle of the Valsos' defensive architecture, the Behemoth himself descended, flanked by his Unspeakable Court.
Gengrat chose the manner of the citadel's fall with the care of an artist, deciding to deploy Ordinatus Hydra and Ordinatus Dagon, screened by an un-ending horde of the IIXth Grand Company's automata. This was as much for the enemy as it was for him, and he decided to enjoy himself.
He lay back in his dark throne and directed the bellicose machine spirits in the legion manifold, a thousand screaming voices all crying out for blood and singing the ecstasy of destruction.
When the outer wall broke beneath the relentless artillery from Hydra and Dagon and a chorus of lesser guns, Gengrat himself lead the armored assault across the no-man's land in his personal transport, Ancalagon.

With Kolgrad in ruins, Gengrat pushed for the next planet.

Is there a chaotic version of the Imperial Guard in the chaotic Imperium? If so, who would be in the guard?

>>48142535
>Flyer spam
Yeah, that's legit, The Sky Serpents more see it as a means of supporting their ground armor, whereas you guys are fighter aces.

You inter your dead in fighters, the Sky Serpents inter their dead in regular dreds.

Does that work?


>Names
That's a totally fair way to approach it.

>>48142579
The rest of the campaign was not nearly so swift as it had been on Kolgrad-- with the enemy aware of his willingness to use exterminatus class weaponry, further precautions were taken to ensure that fortifications could survive such a first strike.
None the less, faced with such a foe, many worlds capitulated outright and were brought easily into compliance.

However, many held out, their ruling classes knowing that they would never be accepted into the Imperium. These worlds felt the wrath of the Behemoth Guard as they were cleansed in holy atomic fire. These battles became legendary for their bloodshed, as unnacceptably deviant abhumans were herded onto the battlefield by the Behemoth guard to clear minefields and make feints for thrusts. Whenever the world was of little productive capacity, Gengrat polluted the environment, effectively turning the planetside engagements into a perverse parallel to void warfare.
On other worlds, such as the final battle of Valsos Prime, The Behemoth withheld atomics and the greater alchemical weaponry, opting instead for a conventional siege and armored assault.

>>Thought
What do you guys think of Gengrat having the title Behemoth? Too obvious?
Also, what sort of tank his personal pimp-mobile, Ancalagon should be? I was considering a Stormlord, for the Mastadon level transport capacity, but it strikes me as lacking in siege-level dakka, for which I'm thinking of a Stormhammer.
That or he might just have a Mastadon, but it doesn't seem grandiose enough.

>>48142599>
You inter your dead in fighters

The Hawks don't inter their dead at all. Feeling it traps the spirit.

just reading that paragraph kind of gave me the impression the Serpents were almost uniquely heavy with the fliers, rather than play up the whole encirclement & sorcery thing.

Its cool either way, in saying that - im off to bed, Ill check in on the thread tomorrow.

>>48142582
There would have to be, Infernal Enforcers or some such.

As for who, slaves and cultists mostly I guess.

>>48142691
>it traps the spirit
That's the idea, yeah.

>>48142691
Gotcha. Nah, Sky Serpents love their Fellglaives and Sicarans too much to be flyer centered. It's just that Fire Raptors are faster than conventional artillery and dev squads and Storm Eagles allow deployment as swift as a drop pod, but let you redeploy. The flyers are the fangs and fire of the serpent, the armor and infantry in their APCs are the coils and claws.
Both legions employ aircraft, but in very different ways.

>>48142701
Hahaha.

>>48141582
>>48141109
>>48141582
Hey so fist of mars here, here to ask for some help really. I don't know what to tell you about my chapter as i'm not to involved in the events of the herasy. I'm still looking for someone to strike a mortal blow on me in a fight for the fate of mars during the herasy but it seems mars isn't much of a priority to others. Other than that i think iv set up my post herasy nicely, i think i'll work on an opinions chart for the others legions/primarchs for now and see where that goes.

One other thing, i looked on the wiki and my primarch is listed as [master of mars] however that is the title given to the head of the legion after the primarchs death, his name was Marcus Sinistrum but i don't know how to change it

>>48142460
>>48142691
>>48143168


Alright, let's try that again:

The Legion's tactical doctrine of swift encirclement and mobile warfare means that mobility is highly valued. To this end, nearly every squad is assigned a dedicated transport of some sort, with these vehicles being preferred over jump packs or bikes. Most commonly, this is the rhino. (When the Razorback becomes available, Xun falls in love with it. Volkite razorbacks.... mmmm...)
However, the legion is also well stocked with Land Raiders and Spartan Assault tanks, preferring the latter for deployment of 20 man despoiler squads.
Another common means of transportation for 20 man despoiler squads is the Storm Eagle.

Squads are deployed in notional units of 20, the number of completeness in Tepectitlani culture. When deployed by rhinos or other such transports, the two squads of ten then support each other and fight as one.

The chapter is known for its deployment of armor, preferring Malcadors, Sicarans and Predators over the much slower legion artillery. When Vindicators are deployed, they are usually fielded in a stripped down configuration to allow for greater speed. (Like how Alpha Legion fields them in Book 6)
To augment this arsenal, the legion also makes use of aircraft such as the Fire Raptor.

In the legion's thought, the airborne infantry and weaponry are the Fangs and Fire of the Serpent, to snap out of nowhere and deliver a killing blow. (The teleportarium deployed terminators also fall into this category)
The tanks and mounted infantry are the Coils and Claws of the Serpent, confining and disembowling the enemy.

>>48143340
Hmm, well, what do you want to do during hte heresy? I think Gengrat would probably make a pretty great foe on Mars, have you looked at the stuff on him?

>>48143340
Is the Master of Mars unnamed?

>>48143408
The Legion shows a marked fondness for Volkite weaponry, and devotes a great deal of effort to maintaining and producing the otherwise arcane weapons. This is because the legion sees Volkite weaponry as an idea solution to the problem of how to deal with foes with extensive numerical superiority. Because the legion's deployment is mobile, it runs the risk of being cut off and unable to take a defensive posture. Volkite weaponry has the range and destructive capacity to hold off a foe while the legionaries dig in.

The exception to this general mode of deployment is seen in specialized linebreaker formations, which are generally held in reserve until the killing blow is to be struck. This is where the legion fields its Mastadons and Typhons and Dreadnaughts, as well as terminators and breaching units.

Psykers are relatively common in the legion, and are deployed as widely as possible. I'll type up a bit more later, but basically they do scrying on the enemy and communicate with one another to enhance cohesion in addition to killing yaks at 500 yards with MIND BULLETS. So how the Storm Seers of the White Scars are Chaplains + Librarians, these guys are Vigilator/Master of Signals + Librarians.

Basically, if we were to write up crunch, they'd have a unique consul type for them--still working on the name.
They might even have a rule like the Word Bearers Burning Lore or be able to upgrade a Praetor to a psyker for XX points like an Iron Warriors War Smith.

They'd probably have a rule to upgrade a tac squad to volkite for XXX points as well. And probably their LA rules would include scout. Really, it would probably look a lot like the White Scars with a provision that their compulsory troops must have DCs.

Likely in this universe, it's the Sky Serpents that invent the Damocles, which will have to get a cool Mesoamerican or Chinese sounding name.

>>48143593
While I'm at it, I'm thinking there's an elite terminator guard, that I'm oh-so-cleverly thinking of calling Jaguar Warriors.
I'm imagining that the legion as a whole makes widespread use of glaives and macuahuitls, and these Jaguar Warriors would have a volkite in one hand and a macuahuitl in the other, and probably rad grenades/rad missile launchers, since these guys are for breaching and storming the gap.

I also imagine that they make widespread use of modified destroyer squads, since their weapons provide a means of compensating when outnumbered. They'd seldom use phosphex, but make use of rad weapons and maybe flamers or better, those mechanicum rad cleansers.

In a similar vein, they'd probably be fond of Lightning guns, but that's mostly for the visual and symbolic effect, rather than any strategic benefit.


So I'm thinking that they're distinct from the Angels of Light in that the Angels do much more jet-bikes and straightforwards assaults,
from the Behemoth Guard in that they are heavy armor and nasty weapons straight to the face partying like it's 1916,
from the Second Sons in that they aren't nearly so "dirty" with their weaponry,
from the Warhawks in that their air cav is part of a two pronged approach with their ground forces and the focus for the Sky Serpents is 'confine the enemy with speed and confusion and then hit them like a ton of bricks' rather than 'ambush from ten sides', the effect is similar, but for the Sky Serpents, confusion is the weapon and speed is a good way to achieve that,
and from the Fists of Mars by not being cyborgs, but I don't know enough about what they fight like to really go further.

>>48143837
Atlatl pattern whirlwinds?

>>48143958
Yes!
Think that would be in addition to the Scorpius Pattern or a new pattern?

>>48143837
>>48143958
>>48144067
Speaking of tank patterns: Storm Hammers have been depicted with something similar in concept and capabilities to the Baal Predator and Land Raider Crusader in their 'sample organization' pic.

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>>48144067
I'd make a new pattern.

Speaking of patterns, the Undying Scions are capable of constructing dreadnought sized power swords and grav weapons, because their primarch had them.

>>48144100
Nice. Mind sharing the STC? :p

Also I'm thinking that when Engerand and Xun became close, Xun forged him a hammer with a better name than the Storm Hammer. Malleus Tempestuous?

>>48144110
Hell yeah. You guys are probably experienced enough with enterment to make effective and prolonged use of the Leviathan pattern.

>>48144268
Oh, definitely. Hmm, what do you all think of dreadnought sized force weapons?

>>48144457
Precedents exist in canon and the Sky Serpents could fabricate them and have the psytek expertise.

>>48144595
How about specialized dreadnought arms that are made to grip things but aren't necessarily weapons. The dreadnoughts are active for longer than those in any other legion so they'd need to be able to do more than just fight.

>>48144974
Don't see why that isn't possible, in Betrayer Lotara places cards with a dreadnought. Granted he can't hold the cards in his big robot claws of doom, so they use a servitor intermediary, but I'd imagine that if they hardwired a servitor brain or two to the fine manipulators to reduce cognitive strain on the occupant, a dreadnought could be awake full time and have (relatively) fine motor control.

>>48141109
>>48141169
>>48143340
>>48143408
>>48143487
So 1st the master of mars is as of now unnamed. His character isn't overly important until after the heresy and most other people are still talking about what their doing during the heresy.

Gengrat and the behemoth's are pretty cool and i agree that he would make a good foe in the fight for mars if he wants to be a part of that. Also as part of that whole thing i was wondering what everyones opinion on the void dragon and mars ultimate fate is, Mars could either be destroyed in the fight or taken for chaos and either way that could wake the void dragon which would be a very big deal.

Many people are talking about their legion wartime capabilities and tactical preferences. My Fists of Mars specialize In two things.

Their most signature tactic is combined mechanical warfare, air and sky heavy ordinance. Powerful tanks, many types of rhino such as the predator and whirlwind. as for the sky the use heavily outfitted thunder hawk gunships although air superiority is not their priority

Their infantry tactics heavily rely on use of devastator squads using weapons such as the heavy bolter, lascannon, plasma cannon and rarer examples of missile launchers. As the fists of mars make heavy use of technological improvements it is most common for marines to have a combination of utility and ballistic mechadendrites used to help reload their heavy weapons and for defence during said reload periods

The marine forces of the fists are supported by Skitarii squads in place of scout marines and in many cases mixed into other squads as needed

all this being said the due to the mechanicus forge worlds and high productions capabilities the fists enjoy a great deal of flexibility in armaments and can make use of this to alter their preferred combat tactics to fit the needs of their foe's when their is time to plan ahead


I know i said id do a relationship chart, that's still coming

Gotta say, Asunder doesn't sound like it's more grimdark than standard 40k. The Emperor is an actual warp deity protecting humanity with a fuck huge warp storm, We have noblebright Kor who are all peace and love with Eldar, Tau and fucking chaos worshippers. Oathsworn are basically Dark Angels with their half of a legion is helping chaos, the other loyalists, and their primarch is MIA and unable to give orders to either of them.

The warmaster is a keikaku manlet. and the Storm Hammers are Sigmarines. The Angels of Light, despite their stupid fucking name, at least have a sense of brutality and are pretty good eastern roman empire analogues to the fallen west. Not to mention all the pro-psyker primarchs I can't imagine a council of Nikea. Yet somehow even with massive warpstorms and people unable to hold the Imperium together without the astronomicon, we get soul binding and other psyker restraint methods passed out to the legions.

>>48146067
I agree with the spirit of this post, no astronomicon should be a way bigger deal and i gotta say i feel the Kor, Extropian Collective and Oathsworn are all really not 40k enough. everything else is pretty good in my eyes though

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More of this stuff. With a screencap for recap. Again, all input welcome. It's taking me a while to get on to how these guys could relate to everyone else, mostly because I'm building them from scratch here.

(1/4probably)

PHYSIOLOGY

As an Archeotect ascends in favour and personal power, less can be said for sure about the intricacies of his physiology, as the nation as a whole encourages – even requires, in many instances – further and further levels of self-experimentation. The long term effects of vitae usage have, however, set the nomadic explorers apart from the rest of mankind. Even before their first alterations are programmed into their flesh, Archeotects tend towards tall, lean builds, their skin generally paler than perhaps normal. Millennia of gene therapy and careful eugenics have increased their baseline lifespan immensely and enhanced most of their physical functions. Every Archeotect is born with a cluster of self-replicating vitae nests located in the vicinity of his or her heart, waiting for the day they come of age and have the nanobots activated, initiating the first of many metamorphic processes to come.

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>>48146157

(2/4probably)

The first of these changes are purely practical. Alterations to the cerebral cortex and nervous system enhance the Archeotect’s coordination and reflexes, as well as connecting them to the electromagnetic means of communication utilized by Archeotects. Biological muscle is threaded with artificial reinforcement, bone is hardened, and senses are fine-tuned. At this stage, an Archeotect is considered a citizen proper of the nation, bestowed the rank of neonate, and is deemed fit to participate fully in the great archeology.

As an Archeotect ascends in rank or station, they have access to further, more elaborate programming and physical reinforcement, and greater freedom to do as they choose with their physiology. It is not uncommon for Archeotect nobility to display terrifying feats of celerity and strength, or demonstrate hosts of integrated systems, from simple power blades to sophisticated nanotech swarm weaponry. Many of the most advanced Archeotects have left their human forms behind entirely, transforming bodies into shells of shifting adamantium and flowing vitae.

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>>48146170

(3/3)

OPINIONS

A rough outline of how these guys would feel about the other factions. I’m being general here, because I’d like to withhold opinions about specific Crusader States and such until I have a fuller understanding of how they all function.

The Crusader States: All astartes, no matter how personally valorous they may be, are remnants of a great folly, and genetic mistakes of the highest order. Archeotects can personally like a Marine, even respect them for their qualities, but when all is said and done, they view the astartes as intrinsically flawed as a result of their heritage. They are better neighbours than the forces of Chaos, but they have to go eventually.

The Dark Imperium: Proof of the Emperor’s failings. A mistake that must one day be fixed. Only through the search for perfection will mankind prevail over this terror.

Orks: Clearly genetically tampered with, for a specific purpose. Fascinating, though attempts at replicating a similarly tenacious warrior race have been disastrous. Endeavours to drain the innate knowledge of ‘mekboys’ have been far more profitable, and are encouraged whenever possible.

Eldar: The tell-tale signs of genetic engineering are here too. It would be advantageous to understand how psychic potential can be fine-tuned in such a way. In many ways, the Eldar are preferable allies, and have more in common with Archeotects than many humans. House Gehennict and House Voldare in particular have regular dealings with certain corsair or Commorite fleets.

Tau: Very promising. Far too naïve, however.
Necrons: Yet another fallen empire, no doubt responsible for its own demise. Still, there is much to be picked from their bones…

Tyranids: Flesh must be tempered with the cold efficiency of adamantium to be truly worthwhile. Still, they are a wellspring for fresh ideas.

>>48146141
No Astronomicon is a big part why we have fractious crusader states. You can only "safely" travel short distances near an Astral Beacon, so you end up with independant isolated states who rule their corner of the galaxy.

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>>48141003
>>48141525
It all looks badass but right now the Judgement Bringers and Knights Exemplar look too similar. For reference this was my idea of what they looked like post-heresy I guess

>>48146009
Yeah, totally down for that. Throwdown on Mars.

ARE YOU READY TO RUMBLE?

Buy your tickets now for the M31 WWE ASTARTES BOWL! The traitor rebels of redacted challenge raigning Champ, Klaus Staffer to a cage mage with stakes that COULD NOT BE HIGHER!

Available on pay-per-view and Blu-Ray.

Guess we're running out of steam here.

>>48148708
Hekatonkires aren't getting any work because the guys of the Hektor Heresy had a spot open for a legion, so I jumped over there and got to work.

>>48148708
Wednesday afternoon isn't exactly a very busy time for posters.

>M41

Marius waited in the council antechamber. While his actions at the battle of Callathrax were brutal, they were very necessary, and he intended to prove it.
"You may enter." came the monotone voice of the retainer servitor at the door. Their previous audience had not taken long; the councilors were impatient for his trial.

"Sergeant Marius", the dreadnought boomed, "You stand accused of destroying Primaris Hive on the planet Callathrax by way of orbital bombardment. This is a very serious charge. What say you?"
"I committed the charges laid forth against me, but if given the chance, I would explain my actions." The council gave pause. It was obvious that they were considering Marius's words. Pollux spoke:
"We have decided to hear your explanation, but speak carefully sergeant."
"The planet was under assault from an insidious xenos race. Their attacks came not from the stars, but from within the planet itself. The only way to halt their advance was to destroy their base of operations, which laid beneath Primaris Hive."
The councilors remained silent for some time, no doubt convening in private via an internal communication device. After several minutes, the High Councilor spoke with a solemn tone.
"We know of what you have seen. This is not an isolated attack and these are no mere xenos minoris."

>>48148854

If it doesn't work out, we'd love to have you back. Leave the old farts and their project and come join the shiny newness.

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>>48148934
GEEEEEEENESTEEEEALEEEEEERS

>>48148934
"Their attacks seem to come at random, and they leave naught but dust in their wake." The gravity in the High Councilor's voice was palpable.
"Why hide this information?" asked Marius, "Why leave the worlds of the Vigil vulnerable?"
Because we have reason to believe that some of our brothers are in league with the aliens". Marius could not believe it. Astartes had turned on one another before, but betrayal from within the same legion? This was unheard of.
"Their culture seems to be obsessed with death. They awake from vast tombs that by all accounts have been sealed for eons." Deplorable as the thought was, it made some amount of sense. A race that could cheat death would hold some allure to the impulsive members of the legion.
"Marius, you are hereby absolved of all charges. However, we will assign you to a mission of utmost secrecy. You must seek out these "tomb worlds" and mark their positions for our loyal brothers to destroy. Sending entire battlegroups would make our Martian neighbors nervous, not to mention let any traitors in our midst on to our suspicions. You will be assigned a strike cruiser and a full company of marines who are ensured of loyalty to the fullest extent." Marius took a knee before the masters of the legion.
"I am honored by this, my lords. I will pursue this mission to the death if that is what it comes to. I will not fail you."

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>>48149172
NEEEECROOOOOOONS
DEAD MARINES AGAINST DEAD ROBOTS
IT'S EVEN BETTER THAN I IMAGINED

are necron sympathizers really a thing?

>>48149241
They are now.

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>>48149395
Forgot pic

>>48143340
Well if possible, can the Hawks help you out - in my background Ive got them fairly reliant on the Fists for help regarding the maintenance of their armouries and I think it would help if we set up some close ties before hand.

>>48143340
Ill change the name if it hasnt already happened, that was my fault - I couldn't find a name so I just put that there to fill the gap.

>>48144268
>>48144457
Depending on when the weapon is forged, rather than just name it storm hammer in latin - if its after the heresy consider perhaps something like Retribution, Justice,

if before maybe Stormguard, Conqueror, or Starfall.

>>48146067
>>48146141

I agree, Kor, Extra collective, and the medic marines make no sense for this universe at all.

Kor makes more sense to sell itself as noble bright and even try and actually be it, but unfortunately for them to only way to get close is to have a hyper secret sect (Inquisition) that tightly monitors EVERYTHING. Making them exactly like the Warmaster - just with better intentions.

The Extra Collective aren't led by a Primarch, why are they even in the 40k world? All they do is drones, good luck writing stories when it always boils down to DOOMBOTS. Besides this they are essentially tau/dark mechanicus without any downsides at all.

And Medic Marines? It was said earlier that they hold the genebanks of other legions? Are you kidding - the most vital and sacred treasures of a chapter they just give to someone else - someone who very clearly is not on their side? Its retarded and goes against everything in the 40k mythos.

You people need to start adding flaws into your characters, so much sue in these legions. 40k is literally defined by how shitastic it is.

This one seems to be playing up that its worse but you have more loyalists than you do traitors and somehow lost?

IT GROWS
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Tournament_of_Blades

We might possibly maybe want to scale back the amount of legions who are there. There should probably be legions who aren't present for Anders to rally and bring to Terra.

>>48148983
So do we move the Herakites to the side for now?

>>48149892
>Kor makes more sense to sell itself as noble bright and even try and actually be it, but unfortunately for them to only way to get close is to have a hyper secret sect (Inquisition) that tightly monitors EVERYTHING. Making them exactly like the Warmaster - just with better intentions.
IMO The Paladins of Kor work as a fringe group who are barely holding on at the edge of the galaxy. Their Idealism makes them a poor fit for the harsh realities of the galaxy, so they hide from it. Their story is quite tragic.

>The Extra Collective aren't led by a Primarch, why are they even in the 40k world?
There's more to 40k than space marines.

>And Medic Marines? It was said earlier that they hold the genebanks of other legions? Are you kidding - the most vital and sacred treasures of a chapter they just give to someone else - someone who very clearly is not on their side? Its retarded and goes against everything in the 40k mythos.
They *always* had the genebanks because the Emperor entrusted them with that task from the beginning. The Astartes never learn the secrets of how to manage their own geneseed, so they don't have a choice.

>You people need to start adding flaws into your characters, so much sue in these legions. 40k is literally defined by how shitastic it is.
Agree.

>>48149946
>So do we move the Herakites to the side for now?
DESU I always thought they were boring with a silly name.

>>48148934
>>48149172
This is the first time I've really written anything before, wouldn't mind some critiquing.

>>48149927
Currently the Astartes-Bowl is:

Judgement Bringers, Silver Spears, Iron Hearts, Behemoth Guard, and Eyes of the Warmaster.

vs

Warhawks, Knights Exemplar, Paladins of Kor, Second Sons, and Storm Hammers.

That leaves the Sky Serpents, Angels of Light, Void Lords, and Fists of Mars to be rallied by Anders after !Garro escapes. Two of those are indisposed by the attack of the Bloodhounds.

This means after the heresy the Fists of Mars and the Sky Serpents will be the most numerous legions.

Seems like this narrative is coming together, lads.

>>48150098
Scions can be wherever you need them, as long as they're at Terra before the Emperor's death.

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>>48150142
mfw I literally forgot the undying scions

fugg. Did I miss anyone else?

>>48150161
The Oathsworn I think.

>>48150205
Ah yeah. I think someone (possibly even me) said they'd be there as medicae for tourney accidents rather than as competitors. Given their nature I imagine there's Oathsworn in every astartes fleet during the heresy.

>>48149927

In attendance:
The Judgement Bringers, Warhawks, The Knights Exemplar, Iron Hearts, Paladins of Kor, Silver Spears, Second Sons, Storm Hammers, Bohemoth Guard, Sky Serpents, Eyes of the Warmster,

> Which actual PRIMARCHS are in attendance though.

Set up:

The Primarchs sitting together in essentially a VIP balcony, or maybe two? If 2, the above question is really important.

The legion attendees in booths and stands above the arena. Im thinking something like:

Warmasters (centre) - Sky Serpents - Iron Hearts - Hawks - JB - Paladins - Knights - S. Spears - Storm Hammers - Behe Guard - Second Sons -> back to Warmaster.

>We really need more bad guys in attendance, in military doctrine surprise (while not technically measured) typically adds x3 Multiplier for force ratios, but I imagine against Astartes that would be far lower, as they are always armed and armoured + superior reaction times & military minds.

Samandrial & Garmon enter the arena, Samandrial with his sword grasped loosely in one hand, Garmon with an ornate spear twirling around him. (I see them as showmen, correct me if im wrong).

The crowd goes wild with excitement and cheering.

The fight starts, the two more like dancers than warriors, the Spears range giving a marked advantage, but Garmons movements whilst fluid demonstrate an excess, he spins and flips when a simple backwards step would suffice - he twirls his spear to parry a single strike. Garmon is elegant and inhumanly swift, but his excess is his weakness - whether he is overconfident or has just given himself to the show it matters not, Samandrial counters, parries, and dodges with a clinical economy - when he strikes - he commits only what he must, and slowly but surely he manages to close. True to his primarch's teaching he launches the finishing blow - not at Garmon, but at the spear - cleaving it in two.

With a swift kick he knocks Garmon to the ground. - The crowd again roars.

>Part 1

>>48150440
>part 2


[[all the while, in silence forces of the Behe Guard and/or Ironhearts move to block the exits, their weapons strangely loaded though not at the ready.
Mean while, the JB, Silver Spears, and Eyes - begin to ready their weapons whilst "watching" the match below.]]

Samandrial lowers his blade, and walks over the Garmon who is laying on the arena floor. Samandrial pauses, offering a hand to his defeated brother - which is easily accepted, as Garmon reaches his feet - a flash of silver - too fast for mortal eyes and even some of the astartes to track. the arena turns dead silent as Samandrials head begins to roll off his shoulders, caught by the treacherous Garmon - he raises it above his head and screams "FOR THE WARMASTER, NOW MY BROTHERS! NOW!

The arena erupts in fire, each loyalist legion being flanked by 2 traitors. The stands erupt in fire, as the Zachariah rushes to Garmon blade drawn.

As the loyalists steady themselves and move to leave they are met with fire from the blocking behe guard & iron heart forces. Surrounded and confused the tell-tail sounds of Vengeance missiles in flight fills the arena - mere moments before explosions wrack the centre.

The arena turns into a charnel house of death and gore,

Bannroud Tenriel having noticed the strange movements of the Ironhearts had already notified his honour guard to ready themselves "as a precaution".

At the outbreak of the battle, he strikes first, his breaking through the blockade of the Ironheart troops before suffering the devastation wrought by the traitor ambushes. Bannroud and his men escape to orbit, and bring news of the Heresy to Anders Kor.


> Will modify more with details of Primarchs when I figure out who was actually there

>>48150440
>>48150455
reread the page for a few changes since last night but overall this is good stuff

>>48149971
>fringe group who are barely holding on at the edge of the galaxy.

Oh so sort of like the Tau? Idealists but without the means to actually expand or do anything, stuggling to hold on to their domain as it is? - I like that. coolio.

>The Astartes never learn the secrets of how to manage their own geneseed, so they don't have a choice.

I don't like the sounds of that for a few reasons but primarily, the genebanks need to be around the legions. Without access to them at will, how can they have any control over recruiting? monitoring purity?

I don't mind the idea of an Apothecary Legion, but to give them wholesale control of the foundation of every other legion is abit much. Besides the fact it makes no sense for the Emperor to decree because then it provides a logistical bottle neck for the Crusade.

The legions were designed to be self-contained armies - thats why they had their own apothecaries, techmarines, and consuls.

Just my 2c.


>>48150098
Each force there was only 100 or so, which means even those that are at Astartes-bowl doesnt mean they can't be rallied by Klaus and !Garro.

Reposting this badass shit:

"Everything is in place, my liege. The warmaster has given the signal." The warrior was clad the colors of Enoch's own legion, but Enoch's small cadre knew this stranger was not a true son of the primarch.

"No. We had a plan. This was not part of the plan," Enoch chewed his knuckle nervously, as nervously as an immortal son of the Emperor could, anyway. "The artillery, that a was precautionary measure. A last resort."

"The warmaster has spoken, my liege. The time is now!"

"No! I can parley with them, I can show them the error in their ways, they'll see! I'll make them see!"

"I speak for the warmaster, Enoch! It is an ORDER!"

Enoch glowered at the liason. "You are not the warmaster, nor would obey that order even if you were."

The confrontation was interrupted by the sudden silence of the crowd, and Enoch's attention was drawn back to the arena. He smelled blood.Far too much of it.

"No... No! Zaul, keep an your watch on this meddling spy. The Judgement Bringers will not fire a single round until I give the command." Enoch jumped down into the arena where he could hear what could only be the insane cries of Garmon, and the shocked and confused shouting of the rest of the arena. He walked toward the action but with mere seconds gone by, Enoch heard a sound that made him tremble. The unmistakable whine of dozens of incoming whirlwind missiles. He trembled and shook in his rage, at the insult the warmaster had smacked across his face, and the pitiful waste of astartes life that was fractions of seconds away, at the insubordination of his sons. Before he could mutter a word, everything was deafened and loyal marines were being tossed about like children's toys. The earth literally shook and heaved under the abuse of the Judgement Bringers, true to their namesake and masters at their craft. And through the barrage came striding, resplendent in his hatred, glorious in his fury, the Emperor's Storm. Engerand.

>>48150569
>Each force there was only 100 or so, which means even those that are at Astartes-bowl doesnt mean they can't be rallied by Klaus and !Garro.
That's just the forces there to COMPETE. The Primarchs bring their legions (or major portions of them) to watch.

>Without access to them at will, how can they have any control over recruiting? monitoring purity?
Legions have Oathsworn at the ready. The Oathsworn don't travel in their own fleets, instead their companies swear oaths of service. Everyone's got a few oathsworn laying around. Think of them as literally apothecaries, just with loyalty to the apothecarium rather than their patients.

>>48150591
>"I speak for the warmaster, Enoch! It is an ORDER!"

possible replace with

"That was an order!"

and

>"You are not the warmaster, nor would obey that order even if you were."

"You are no Warmaster, do not suppose to order me"

again just my 2c. I just think its abit smoother.

>>48150646
>That's just the forces there to COMPETE.
I misunderstood, The Hawks wouldn't send that many, they would only send a small detachment to compete and anyone already attached to the Legions.

>>48150646
>Think of them as literally apothecaries, just with loyalty to the apothecarium.

Does that mean that real apothecaries don't exist in this canon?

>>48150684
>Does that mean that real apothecaries don't exist in this canon?
That's sort of the idea. They outsource their apothecary tasks to Oathsworn.

>>48150740
Thats going to be a severe point of contention with the Hawks.

Also, anyone have an up to date version of the galactic map?

>>48150740

How the hell would the Oathsworn deal with the really warped traitors, where the Geneseed has been corrupted beyond redemption? Or the habit of some traitors to eat the gene-seed of defeated loyalist foes as the ultimate 'fuck you' to them?

>>48150804
Good question, is the Oathsworn anon around?

>>48150804
I imagine they probably just don't swear oaths to those groups.

>>48150591
Aw shucks. The last little bit:

"ENOCH!!" Engerand roared. A single word that carried with it volumes, and was all that was needed. Enoch said nothing as he drew his blade and rushed to meet his brother. The time for words was over. He had made his choice, and he would see it through to its bitter end.

>>48150684
It makes the conversation more natural, but it muddies the intent. Enoch is saying "I don't care if there the warmaster himself was standing there giving me that order"

>>48150918
In which case they become the #1 target for all traitor forces. I mean the genebanks were always going to be top priority for traitors but now its a requirement to continue their Legions.

>>48150963
Wouldn't he care though, wasn't he the pitiful dude who was looking for someone to follow?

or have I confused the personalities of another Primarch?

>>48146067
>>48146141
>>48146469
>>48149892
>>48149971
>>48150569
>>48150569
>IMO The Paladins of Kor work as a fringe group who are barely holding on at the edge of the galaxy. Their Idealism makes them a poor fit for the harsh realities of the galaxy, so they hide from it. Their story is quite tragic.
That works but it needs to be played up more
>>The Extra Collective aren't led by a Primarch, why are they even in the 40k world?
>There's more to 40k than space marines.
there may be more to 40k than space marines but they have no faults and go in a completely different direction to the point of the the entire project

>>And Medic Marines? It was said earlier that they hold the genebanks of other legions? Are you kidding - the most vital and sacred treasures of a chapter they just give to someone else - someone who very clearly is not on their side? Its retarded and goes against everything in the 40k mythos.
>They *always* had the genebanks because the Emperor entrusted them with that task from the beginning.
The Astartes never learn the secrets of how to manage their own geneseed, so they don't have a choice.

they cannot have control over everyone else's geneseed, seriously that's way to much of a big deal

>>You people need to start adding flaws into your characters, so much sue in these legions. 40k is literally defined by how shitastic it is.
>Agree.
Agree

>>48149971
>>48150569
Yeah, I think as long as Kor is really being undone by their idealism it'll work.

And for the Oathsworn, presumably they've been around since the beginning so the legions never even stopped to consider it odd that they don't do their own gene-seed stuff. The question is though, once the warp becomes unstable, how the Oathsworn will get to the various legions. Will they be trained in situ?

>>48150646
>>48150684
>>48150740
>>48150977
>>48150918
>>48150831
>>48150804
>>48150775
But in the era of crusaders states everyone just lets the non loyalist marines just keep this gene seed thing a secret and keep letting them hang out in their legions? that makes no sense

>>48150918
But then if the Oathsworn refuse to play ball with those extreme groups, they'll be unable to persist, yeah?
The Oathsworn ought to be able to dictate legion policy via threatening to withhold gene seed.

>>48151049
>they cannot have control over everyone else's geneseed, seriously that's way to much of a big deal

"The apothecaries can't have control over our geneseed, it's too much of a big deal!"
That's how silly you sound right now.

The Oathsworn are like barely a legion. They have no surviving primarch or overarching command structure. A cadre of oathsworn swears fealty to a particular legion, and serves them until their oath is up.

>>48151106
>everyone just lets the non loyalist marines just keep this gene seed thing a secret
They're not non-loyalist. They're not traitor. They're not even neutral. They're not a singular body which can have a unified stance on something.

>>48151049
>The Astartes never learn the secrets of how to manage their own geneseed, so they don't have a choice.

Thats a logistical nightmare

>they cannot have control over everyone else's geneseed, seriously that's way to much of a big deal

I agree. Or if they do, we have to play it up to be the massive issue it is.

>You people need to start adding flaws into your characters, so much sue in these legions. 40k is literally defined by how shitastic it is.

I'll work on it, I can't speak for other Legions but ill start to add more grimdark.

Thanks anons for keeping it real.

>>48151157
So I think the question then becomes, why are they a legion? Why not just have some sort of distinct class of genetically augmented battle medic, rather than a legion with a primarch?
Or why not have a human medical corps in orbit/at field hospitals and have marines trained in combat medicine and gene-seed extraction on the battlefield?

>>48151203
>why are they a legion?
Well, when I primarch daddy and a test tube mommy love each other very very much...

>>48151139

They might get the Crusader states to play ball, but what about the Chaos legions? Most of them have Gene-Seed so corrupted by chaos it barely qualifies anymore, and they don't need a steady flow of reinforcements either as they remain with higher numbers and in some cases have sorcererous or chaotic replacement systems for Gene-Seed.

Would the Oathsworn want to give Gene-Seed to them knowing that Gene-Seed will be debased beyond repair in a short period of time? Or that they have a habit of eating Loyalist Gene-Seed, because it’s cannibalistic desecration? When you’re fighting other Astartes (an enemy that can’t feel fear) the best you can do is let them know that if they lose, you’re going to do some absolutely horrible things to their dead bodies, and a vicious way of ensuring that your enemy knows his death will never serve his Chapter.

>>48151203
For real though
> Why not just have some sort of distinct class of genetically augmented battle medic, rather than a legion with a primarch?
Why make an entirely new tool for something when you already have a perfectly good one?
>Or why not have a human medical corps in orbit/at field hospitals
Humans can't handle Astartes physiology. I've never even heard of a human doctor working on a post-human in all the fluff.

>and have marines trained in combat medicine and gene-seed extraction on the battlefield?
They do this. They're called Oathsworn.

>>48151006
You've got him right. He is deep down a ptiful figure that NEEDS attachment to something. He hates the emperor because he felt scorned by him, and the warmaster became that psuedo-father figure. Enoch is also sentimental; He loves all of his brother even if he also hates some too. He is willing to do what must be done, but disagrees with the warmaster that its come to that point.

There's also the fact that when he says he wouldn't obey that order even if it came straight from the warmaster, that he's actually lying. After all, the warmaster isn't there. I like that possibility.

>>48151157
>"The apothecaries can't have control over our geneseed, it's too much of a big deal!"
That's how silly you sound right now.

I disagree, the apothecaries in traditional canon are dedicated to their chapters/legions. They live to preserve its linage. They are the protectors of the legions MOST VITAL aspect. They are like mothers caring for their children.

Without that loyalty to the chapter they would never be given such an important task. More to the point, if ALL legion genebanks are kept by 1 organisation that makes them the single most important target for loyalists and traitors alike.

As noted above, they can threaten to withhold the geneseeds and force every faction to do what they want, because they can just blow them up. Then what? The legions have no way to replace the losses and no knowledge of how to manage the existing geneseeds.

>>48151265
>Humans can't handle Astartes physiology. I've never even heard of a human doctor working on a post-human in all the fluff.

I have. The World Eaters had a female human Apothecary, because all of the marine ones were dead.

>>48151265
>Why make an entirely new tool for something when you already

Because the Primarchs are demi-gods of war. Remember they are purpose built by the emperor to be generals, soldiers, and statesmen - its in there genes.

Why make a medic? When any astartes can do the job.

>Humans can't handle Astartes physiology. I've never even heard of a human doctor working on a post-human in all the fluff.
I think it happens in the Night Lords series actually, Talos keeps a doctor slave for the very purpose.


At the end of the day, we can make it work, but as it sits it doesnt make sense - maybe before the heresy, but afterwards not so much.

In fact, I might write up a little story about the Hawks launching a raid on Oathsworn to secure the Hawk geneseeds. mmm, yes. much fun. much grimdark.

>>48151271
Disclaimer: it's not my legion and I don't know shit about fuck
>More to the point, if ALL legion genebanks are kept by 1 organisation that makes them the single most important target for loyalists and traitors alike.
I think you misapprehend the idea of the Oathsworn.

There is no central Oathsworn command. There is no central Oathsworn command. There is no Oathsworn fleet. There is essentially no Oathsworn legion anymore.

A fleet goes out to conquer Xenos World #8295729157. On that fleet is a squad of Oathsworn. The Oathsworn have sworn fealty to the commander of that fleet and by reputation will keep that oath unto death. They are loyal to no one except their oath.

>>48151197
Hmm. What do you say we go through and list some character flaw ideas for the primarchs and legions?

I'm thinking Xun's big issue is that he tends to assume he's got it together, which ordinarily wouldn't be that big a deal, the usual sort of stubbornness, but because he disagrees strongly on some significant points with Alexios and other other primarchs, it is a factor that prevents effective cooperation of the legions.
Also maybe a dash of the Khan's 'nah, you come to me'. And maybe a tendency to play devils advocate too much.

>>48151265
It's more 'what does the Oathsworn primarch do'? He'd have no legion to lead. The oathsworn could just as easily have been generated from a standardized genestock or various geneseeds.
Or why not have them centrally trained on Luna like techmarines. That way you still have a brotherhood that stands apart, but don't have to deal with the issue of what their primarch does all day.

>>48151328
I don't think The Emperor made the Oathsworn with their future in mind. I think it's more like he made them, Faustus was hyperfocused on doctoring, and the Emperor put him to the best use in the Crusade as he could.

Faustus is from Luna and is the second primarch found. It seems like a plausible story to me that, in the absence of other primarchs, the Emperor would teach Faustus the secrets of geneseed and task him with the maintenance of the legions' genestocks. Once the Primarchs are found, they could have hypothetically started their own apothecarians, but the Oathsworn were trustworthy and skilled, so why bother?

>>48151384
>'what does the Oathsworn primarch do'? He'd have no legion to lead.
He'd crusade amongst other expeditionary fleets instead of managing his own. It's not unprecedented.

>>48151399

A Legion's job is to expand the boundaries of the Imperium. If one Legion is not doing that at all, then that's slowing down the Great Crusade. Why make a Legion if that Legion is never to be used as a Legion? And not all 100,000 Marines in the Oathsworn would be Apothecaries either. What about the rest of them? The Line Brothers, the Terminators, the Heavy Support, the Armored forces?

>>48151433
>If one Legion is not doing that at all
Keeping literally all the other legions alive is a pretty big boon to the ability of the imperium to expand its boundries, m8.

>What about the rest of them? The Line Brothers, the Terminators, the Heavy Support, the Armored forces?
They swear oaths of service in the same way and shoot some fukken xenos?

>>48151328
Oh, btw Raydon, did you find >>48143408
>>48143593
>>48143837
to work for you?

>>48151448

A legion is supposed to be autonomous. The Oathsworn remove that autonomy. What if a Primarch wants to have his own Apothecaries and doesn't want to have to rely on the Oathsworn? What if he trains his own Apothecaries?

Oathsworn anon here, lets get started!

>Why are they a legion
In lore, the Primarch landed on Luna and became a master of genetic manipulation there. That became the focus of his legion past the initial thrust where more Primarchs were found and thus more generals were brought into the fold. Due to his utter knowledge of genetics and being the second Primarch found soon after the Warmaster, he was trusted with the utmost secrets of the Emperor's gene projects and given command of the Apothecary Corps to train. While his own legion continued to fight, he sent out detachments of his rather large legion to each other fleet with marines to take care of them. It's their traditional role, and no one I assume at the time had a problem with it. Think of it as Navy corpsmen in the Marines.

>What ARE the Oathsworn?
Originally known as the Hospitaliers, the legion quickly grew to one of, if not the largest due to the early find of their Primarch as well as their mastery of biology. With their master's knowledge the hospitalier gene-seed was exceptionally pure and pliable with the highest rate of successful implants. However, due to their roles as Apothecaries as well as standard legion warfare, they were incredibly spread out across the galaxy and were relatively decentralized. Each task force of Apothecaries swore Oaths of Loyalty to the Emperor, the Primarch, and then their new commander. This and their arcane knowledge of medicine is what earned the trust of their commanders to work with the gene-seed. The Faustus Oath as it was called would be seen as something as holy and sacred as the Hippocratic Oath today.

>Why would they serve the traitors?
Mostly because of their earlier oaths. Working so closely other legions and far from their Primarch, many fell into a place half apart from all. Not quite part of their attached legions, yet never fully Hospitaliers due to their adoption, they all but inevitably fell when their attached legions did. Those that didn't were slain.

>>48141085

love the bronze but kind of don't like it with "Iron" in the name

>>48151342
I understand the idea of decentralised command, but you still need a command structure, and if there is a command structure there is a commander.

If its a council, or a person, or a senate or whatever - there is still someone.

I mean, who determines the amount of oathsworn who are attached to each fleet. Who determines promotion, who supplies the oathsworn with the training, recruitment, and material they need.

They likewise would need facilities, somewhere to store the geneseeds.


Ack, you're not the Oathsworn anon, but these are questions that need answering - because they hold a serious amount of power in this canon as it is, arguably they would have more sway over the traitor legions than the War master.

>>48151384
The Hawks biggest flaws as I imagined them are his insular and untrusting nature, his constant battling with his inner darkness - which leads him to brooding and post heresy, drives his eternal hate, for both him and his legion.

>>48151515
>Ack, you're not the Oathsworn anon, but these are questions that need answering - because they hold a serious amount of power in this canon as it is, arguably they would have more sway over the traitor legions than the War master.

Most of the traitor Legions, at least those who have drowned themsleves in the Chaos Kool-Aid, wouldn't give a shit. Their Gene-Seed would be so warped and corrupted the pure stuff would no longer function for them anymore, so they would no-longer have any use for it. Their numbers would remain greater than the loyalists and those most debased wouldn't care about recruiting anyway (World Eaters and Emperor's Children in canon don't recruit at all.)

>>48151385
> why bother?

As said, because its a logistical nightmare. Imagine trying to coordinate the entire crusades worth of hospitals, medics, and supplies.

The Legions had to operate with in as much of a self-sustainable fashion as possible in order to maintain the crusades tempo and flexibility.

Besides each legion had their own personas and traditions, it seems likely that the Oathsworn would have had to adopt these in order to be accepted, at which point they just become Apothecaries.

I just wish Oathsworn anon was here to provide clarification.

>>48151591

Isn't this him?

>>48151489

>>48151515
They could store the gene-seed in situ, sending back a tithe to Luna, as how Geneseed is handled in the prime universe.

>>48151489
How are the Oathsworn themselves trained post-heresy, or are they totally dispersed, pursuing autonomous directives?

And does their Primarch then go on crusades on his own? What does he do post-heresy, or is he slain?

>>48151458
Yeah man, awesome. I think it provides a clearer distinction - hope I didnt rain on your parade too much, if I did, let me know and ill rain my crying in.

>>48151472
Exactly what I see several Primarchs doing.

>>48151626
No problem, I want the legions to be distinct and interesting as much as you.

>>48151472
>>48151489
>What if a Primarch wants to have his own Apothecaries?
They would have a tough time. Much like other secretive orders such as the tech-priests of Mars or other guilds, the Apothecaries make it a point of both pride and practicality to maintain sole knowledge of the gene-seed. Though the Magos Biologos and similar personal would have a head start if they decided to learn, the Emperor entrusted Faustus and his legion alone with the forbidden, esoteric knowledge necessary. For a comparison, consider when the Emperor gave Corax the information to raise his legion in Deliverance.

>What if he trains his own Apothecaries?
He'd have a tough time. Though many things have changed, the later Oathsworn hold true to the Faustus Oath. For the traitors, it is to keep a monopoly of power among the barbarous heretics. For the loyalists, it is out of tradition and faith in the Oaths. There is no widespread education, only master to apprentice.

>A legion is supposed to be autonomous. The Oathsworn remove that autonomy.
I'm not sure I agree. They're Oathbound to serve, and serve they will. Only their secrets will they never spill.

>It's more 'what does the Oathsworn primarch do'?
Leading at the front. They're one of the most populous legions, and as people said, they're not all Apothecaries. Faustus simply hasn't had a lot of focus compared to his brothers or the Apothecaries of the legion. He's one of the first Primarchs found and a good general. A better scientist to be sure, but that brilliant mind is as clinical and detached as a surgeon on the battlefield. Rather than overwhelming wars, his marines act as precision scalpels later marines might be known as. Managing the fleets across the galaxy, fighting on the front, and creating the latest cures or xenophages to exterminate species without firing a shot. These massive and widespread fleets are what will allow the future Oathsworn to tend to the fractured Crusaders States and Traitors.

>>48151561
>Their numbers would remain greater than the loyalists and those most debased wouldn't care about recruiting anyway (World Eaters and Emperor's Children in canon don't recruit at all.)

Good points, but there are also canon examples of Chaos legions that do recruit, and often have to utilise stolen loyalist geneseeds because theirs is as you say so warped it can't be used.

>>48151611
Yeah missed it while typing. my bad.

>How are the Oathsworn themselves trained post-heresy, or are they totally dispersed, pursuing autonomous directives?
Good questions.

>>48151706
I totally understand you don't want your legions gimmick to be taken, but how do you expect POST heresy, for the legions not to raid the shit out of the Oathsworn genebanks to secure their futures?

>A legion is supposed to be autonomous. The Oathsworn remove that autonomy.
>I'm not sure I agree. They're Oathbound to serve, and serve they will. Only their secrets will they never spill.

They do though, the oath is literally named after their own primarch, and they swear oaths to A: the Emperor, B: their own Primarch and C: the commander of whatever force (local commander I guess?)

Thats a lot of divided loyalties that generals couldn't allow. In their force, consider how distrusted Techmarines are and they only have a single division (mars and the chapter), this has 3.

The amount of distrust and the influence they hold is so much it would detract from their purpose.

>They're one of the most populous legions, and as people said, they're not all Apothecaries.

So at the Heresy who do the fighters back?

>>48151515
>I understand the idea of decentralised command, but you still need a command structure

Before the Heresy, yes. Most Hospitalier commanders were entrusted due to the nature of their mission and warp's frequent hampering of communications to carry out their mission as they saw fit. However, they still were required to report findings, flaws, and discoveries to higher command when attached to other legions. Faustus was not a man of words or direct love. Even his direct combat abilities paled compared to others like Balthazar. His talent was in his genius, whether in SCIENCE! or strategic operations. Not logistics per say, but putting the right man in the right place and being able to coordinate it enough with proper delegation.

That said, after the Heresy and Faustus went MIA covering everyone's escape via Luna, all bets were off. The legions highest commanders, or at least those that were of mind enough, used what pressure they could assert and back door communique to their opposites on the otherside. No one knows what was said or how agreement was met, but the Hospitaliers were no more. They became Oathsworn, and left to follow their own rule. All that matter were their Oaths: to the other legions, even in damnation or in doom; to Faustus, and the pursuit of knowledge. For heretics, this meant there was no boundary any more. For loyalists, that they might gather, preserve, and help others. For both, that none could be trusted with Gene-seed.

>Facilities
I would imagine that much like Apothecaries in 40k would have ways of taking care and protecting them in fleet chapters, they would do the same only with much more secrecy and protection.

>>48151616
Post heresy Oathsworn are trained master to student, much like the Black Templars. Whether this means Tactical Marine, Heavy Support, Tanker, or Apothecary, you learn from your master.

>>48151706
>>48151789
So as many people point out you would be raided to hell and back but heres what i see happening, some one is going to try hard to get this under their own legion and out of your hands and its going to work or work well enough. then everyone is going to see they can do it and the oathsworn are going to become those guys the give the chaos marines their gene seeds and your going to become an enemy of man

>>48150012
Anyone?

>>48151789
>They do though, the oath is literally named after their own primarch, and they swear oaths to A: the Emperor, B: their own Primarch and C: the commander of whatever force (local commander I guess?)
Post heresy two of those guys are dead.

>>48151515
>but you still need a command structure, and if there is a command structure there is a commander.
No you don't. Each Oathsworn unit is 100% autonomous. After the death of the primarch they basically cease to be "a legion" and just become thousands of small independant bands of oathsworn.

>>48151932
I posted the reaction images. It's good stuff. The prospect of Dreadnought Pariahs gives me a hardon.

>>48149172
I like where it's going.

>>48151789
>Thats a lot of divided loyalties that generals couldn't allow
For the heretics, Chaos is a hell of a drug. Even in canon all marines swore loyalty to the Emperor first, but we saw how well that worked out. Those that resisted were killed, and those that didn't were shown the eightfold path.

For the surviving loyalists, remember that the Emperor is dead and most believe the same of Faustus. A few believe him to still be alive, fighting on Luna somehow or in the Eye of Terra. Worse are the traitors who think he's become a traitor and still alive. No proof on any of that though. That just leaves loyalty to their Oaths, and through that their local commander.

>for the legions not to raid the shit out of the Oathsworn genebanks to secure their futures?
I have no doubt they do, except for the most part that just mean raiding other legions. 60-85% of the legion was destroyed, leaving only roaming fleets of combatants that are trying to rebuild and apothecaries who swore Oaths to other legions.

>So at the Heresy who do the fighters back?
The Emperor, mostly. The fact they were so widespread meant that plenty were individually corrupted though, even if most weren't. The closest analogue I can think of are the Dark Angels and the fallen, or how the Iron Warriors had outposts and garrisons across the galaxy.

When the Heresy began, Faustus was at Luna preparing some secret science project or another. As soon as it started, he hit the recall button. The Eyes of Luna fucked that all to shit though, and despite holding Luna he was unable to stop the initial siege. However, due to his quick actions and home base, most of the legion did arrive and helped attain orbital superiority for the Encircling. When the Emperor fell and the legions began to flee, it was Faustus and the largest concentration of his mainline fighters who held the line for the others via Luna. Their fleets were sacrificed whole sale, and all the great weapons of Luna aimed at Terra.

>>48152033
Marines died in droves, slaughtered by the endless hordes of daemons. Each minute squads were rent from the universe, and within 12 hours over 200,000 marines were sacrificed to the dark gods. Rumor is it that at the very end Faustus tried to crash the moon itself into Terra, yet none know his true fate. All that remained were the disparate commanders and bands of the Hospitalers, soon to be Oathsworn. Of a legion reckoned to peak at an astounding 300,000, less than 45,000 remained. Most were detachments of Apothecaries and their guardians to other legions. A few scant warfleets, unable to return home in time roamed the galaxy on Oaths of Vengeance. None were happy with their new freedom and independence. Thus the Oaths came, a sense of duty to bind and unite them, to give a purpose to these empty lives. The Oaths of loyalty, the Oaths were all.

>>48151958
If each unit is autonomous. They are in groups the size of a size squad. Treating a company equivalent. They have no means of communication and no way to resupply or recruit.

I know if i was in charge i would torture yhe fuck out of them until they showed me how to do it without them. Or just command them to tell me, i mean im the commander and they swore there oath to me. Right? More to the point if each groups autonomous how do they keep the geneseeds? Amd where?

It was said earlier they dont even have a fleet or a command structure. So how do the "fighters" deploy to warzones?

This makes less sense than the cripple primarch.

If they are autonomous like you say there arent a legion. They might have been once but now they are apothecaries as normal, in which case its kinda pointless having them at all instead of normal apothecaries.

>>48151932
Likewise, I rate it.

>>48152033
>that just mean raiding other legions. 6
thats the thing with this version of 40k.

The Imperium isnt a thing, the Crusader states are loose alliances/tolerances of each other. They would war with regularity so thats not much of a reason not do go in an take your geneseed back, if anything a smart commander would try and take someone elses as well, to force political alliances or as a gift to gain friends.

>>48152125
Mostly because of their histories and traditions. They have one Oath above all, and that's to never share. If you torture them, well, there's a reason the modern chaos codex doesn't have apothecaries. Because people who do that lose any loyalty from the Oathsworn and probably lose their geneseed.

Yeah, they're not really a legion anymore. They work like Chaos warbands do in 40k. That doesn't mean they're not dangerous: CSM warbands wreck shit all the time in 40k. Their fighters did have command structures, and even their deployed groups did if you read what the guy wrote. They were just entrusted in smaller groups to make commands. Do you think the Alpha Legion are stupid for having tactics that didn't need their primarch? No one is saying they were still crazy effective fighters like the Blood Hounds, they just filled strategic holes and acted as Space Marines do in 40k with company up to chapter sized elements. And guess what, people kick ass in 40k too!

>>48149892
>The Extra Collective aren't led by a Primarch, why are they even in the 40k world?

Because why not? The point of this is not only to have fun but to also reimagine what could be.

>All they do is drones, good luck writing stories when it always boils down to DOOMBOTS. Besides this they are essentially tau/dark mechanicus without any downsides at all.

Their also deckers/hackers and drones are not autonomous, they require a human controller. For all the Collective's advancement in the field of computation they have still not figured out how to make a safe AI. The riggers are also generally more interested in showing each other up with cunning plans than being pragmatically effective since they fight from relative safety. Post-heresy when they can just be restored from a backup.

As for downsides, well I'll admit i do need to work on that but I am not going to anywhere close to turning-into-gibbering-monstrousities stuff that is occurring in the rest of the Dark Imperium because doing so is creatively bankrupt. If you have suggestions I'm open to them but if all you have to say is whining about how this doesn't meet your standards for slavish moldfitting then don't bother.

>>48152231
Im sorry it just makes no sense.

I get that the traitors don't get help anymore, yeah sweet.

But in this universe mistrust is everywhere, even between the crusader states - who knows what the other states are trying to do. Who knows what is just another plot from the Warmaster.

There is NO way that they don't turn on the Oathsworn and take back all their geneseeds.

No way, even if they are forced to practice how to use it themselves, even if they need to rely on the 1 or 2 guys who actually betray their oaths and teach the legions every. single. option. makes MORE SENSE for the Legions than to let this "neutral" faction just sit off to the side with their genetic heritage. their means of recruitment, their means to wage war.

>>48152316
The best compromise on the Oathsworn issue I can think of is that the majority splinter units remain dedicated to a particular successor legion in in perpetuity to become a sort of symbiote within their host. Several could decide to band together to create their own organizations based on their location where they could offer their services based on whatever criteria they choose.

>>48152289
I like the idea that not everyone has to be descending into overt grimdarkness. But, I dunno, it seems like there should be some element of horror to most 40K factions.

>>48152316
Well, maybe your legion did. And hell, lets say he did get a few to break that Oath. Psykers, Chaos, torture, whatever. Then you really do have every other Oathsworn and everyone they could ever put pressure on to wipe you out. Not to mention they are the OG plague masters. They have one thing, mastery of biology. This means Apothecaries, and horrendous horrible shit from the Dark Age of Technology or other Dark Eldar tier monstrosities. Just make a super virus keyed to your geneseed. Only one other legion is as good as super viruses as them, and you're out of your highly skilled, super loyal medics. The Eyes of Luna could get away with it, sure. But they're GMPC anyways.

Maybe I'm coming across too strongly, and if so I'm sorry. But ten thousand years of tradition, and knowing if you fuck with them your entire legion is gone, is one hell of a gun to the head. Plus, they're not a 'neutral' faction. They're not a real faction outside of their commonalities.

They're more like the jews than anything, except instead of /pol/ saying they're trying to take control, they're in charge of your geneBANKS and have no homeland. Yeah they have some small groups that consider themselves still a legion or at least directly connected to what was lost, but most say 'We're Oathsworn, not Hospitaliers, let us fulfil our fucking Oaths.'

They are your damn apothecaries, they just have a different fucking origin.

>>48152419
There is an element horror but I don't want it to be immediately obvious. They're posthumans in the Eclipse Phase sense, not the CSM sense. They don't value life, only ideas, because death is something that can be easily undone for them so long as they remembered to update their backups.

Of course each restore sees them grow a little closer to something far more like a daemon in mindset. This continues until they're something far removed from humanity wearing a human shaped robotic shell. So long as you don't dare to peek behind the curtain everything seems somewhat normal. Disregard the experiment that went wrong and turned an entire building to a mass of writhing flesh and machine-cells, that was an isolated incident.

>>48152427
I dont have a legion anon. Just pointing out how they dont fit.

And the fact they can put pressure on other factions enough to have them group together is enough to say there are as powerful as the warmaster. Probably more so.

>virus keyed to geneseed

I can see why the loyalists would want this faction just sitting in there territory being "neutral".

>they are your apothecaries

Except as you say they are literally holding a gun to every legions head. It boggles the mind to imagine a faction like that being allowed to exist.

>>48152427
> Just make a super virus keyed to your geneseed.

>nowing if you fuck with them your entire legion is gone, is one hell of a gun to the head.

The way I see it - day 1 of the Warmaster deciding he is going bad, these are the first guys he has corrupted.

Either through spies, replacing key personnel, or just straight up chaos corruption. I mean they are the ones in charge of purity - who better to start with, not to mention they are disconnected so they are easy prey.

They would either be gauged immediately in an attempt to turn, or if somehow immune to chaos - cause why not - then the spies and infiltraitors the warmaster has in their ranks would sabotage all the gene banks of anyone he thinks is going to stay loyal. Its his MO after all.

The simplest solution to all this I think is to remove the genebanks from their possession, if you do that they stop being such a serious threat to everyone and go back to being bio-science specialists that during the heresy acted as apothecaries.

Any issues with that? improvements?

>>48152684
I would rather use a combined solution.

Some splinters fully integrate as apothecaries into their host legion while others go separate and attempt be medecins sans frontieres (with limited success) or go full bio-science warriors.

>>48152729
Yeah the two ideas aren't mutually exclusive. Your suggestion has to do with what they do day-to-day and where they are.

My suggestion is more to do with the assets they have. That is at the heart of the issue as I see it.

>>48152585
Without a doubt! Between being the second Primarch found, their massive homebase on Luna, and their influence with other legions, they were the number 1 target. Consequently, due to this and they're widespread nature, they were the loyalist legion with the most heretics. When Faustus hit the 'SHIT HIT THE FAN' Button and recalled literally every legionare and other loyal legion to Terra, even the Kor, it got sabotaged hard. So hard that even being on Luna when the Warmaster had to come all the way from Cadia, the Warmaster still managed to get to Terra first and lay siege with the other traitors. Eventually the counter siege hit and hit hard, but the damage was done.

Ultimately, the closest parallel I can think of is the Martian Prieshood and their Tech-Marines among the Space Marines. They hold onto ancient, unknowable secrets from the Dark Age of Technology, and have their own dark equals with the traitors who delve into what was not meant to be known. Like a smaller, internal empire, they have connections and 'power' everywhere. The fact is, legions have to trust marines trained by this powerful organization in order to function, as the Emperor set forth at the beginning of the Great Crusade. Hell, given he went to Luna before Mars, even more of a precedent for him to entrust a group with so much power. You could torture techmarine to teach your chapter and people everything they know, but then you're pulling the trigger on the gun to your head. You might get some, you might even get a lot of knowledge and how to use it. Except now all of the Mechanicus/Oathsworn are out to get you. They're not as obviously big or powerful, but the gun is so much more dangerous because of what it is. No legion could wage effective war without their warships, their weapons, their armor, or even the ability to travel among the stars. Similarly, no one can fight with someone to maintain their gene-seed. Seriously, this is the best comparison and justification possible.

>>48152543
>>48152427

>They are your damn apothecaries, they just have a different fucking origin.
The issue there isn't so much that your oathsworn are bad its that their pointless, why is one of the factions that's taking one of the limited legion slots boil down to backstory for apothecaries?
I can understand and infact think it would be really cool to have a new backstory for apothecaries but i can't understand why they would be considered a faction since they can't do anything. oathsworn will never have a great victory or defeat and will never be a part of diplomatic action, there power armour probably has a another legions left shoulder and the oathsworn marking on the right. Why are they considered a faction unto themselves?

From the sound of it I got the impression they're large enough to have to their own fleet in addition to having attachments to every legion.

>>48152855
Because for one they have a few roaming space fleets containing chapters to do their own thing, and for second, that's just what I find man. I like playing the bards and heal bots in games. All the justification I need.

>>48152876
They were, once. Now post heresy they got demolished and have a few, harried chapter sized fleets going around and trying to put out fires/start fires depending on their loyalties.

>>48152826
On that note, FoM here.Tech marines are baseicly sold and traded by the fists in the sence that if i want something from another legion i will offer to take on X amount of marines to be trained in the holy rights of mars

>>48152826
> recalled literally every legionnaire

what? thats within his power? He can just recall all of the Apothecaries?

> but the gun is so much more dangerous

Yes.. thats the point.

>Seriously, this is the best comparison and justification possible.

So how do you feel about
>>48152684
>>48152729
>>48152809

The issue people have (and I have concerns myself). Is that they hold way to much power and effectively could control the loyalist forces. Hell since we are writing the story, your guy makes a more plausable warmaster.

I mean its an unparalleled about of power. Look at what the other anon said earlier.

>super virus keyed to your geneseed
>you're out of your highly skilled medics
>recalled all the legionnaires

Before the heresy, its a lot of power but cool, the Emps said it so people go along with it, afterwards though? No deal. When paranoia and fear is running rampant and brother is fighting brother?

>>48152911
>>48152855
> I like playing the bards and heal bots in games
except you're not because the oathsworn can't do anything, their incredibly important but are owned by other legions, that's their thing right? they swear an oath to my legion and i take them onboard to be my apothecaries then they follow my commands and heal my men, in exchange i give them a new home.

>>48152991
Raydon is right/smart listen to him

>>48153007
>they swear an oath to my legion and i take them onboard to be my apothecaries then they follow my commands and heal my men, in exchange i give them a new home.

Pretty much standard vassalage 101. I don't see a problem with it.

>>48152855
Thats also a good point.

But in the Oathsworn defence, if they lose the whole "we are the apothecaries" thing they are still a cool legion that focuses on bio-warfare.

>>48152957
It adds a nice dynamic, but you aren't creating a divide in loyalty, just offering a niche training to their already loyal battle brothers (if I understand correctly?)

>>48152957
Yeah, but the Fists don't have sole right of techmarines, do they?

>>48152991
1. Of course not, but doesn't mean he wouldn't try to call literally everyone including the other legions. Fucking warmaster has gone rogue and Earth is under attack. Then basically Luna starts exploding with sabotage and traitors left and right like it's the fucking Martian Civil war.

2. I agree, kind of the point

3. It's not what I want at all, but I'm willing to work with you guys because it's a collab effort. Mainly the reason I'd see people trust them, is because they've always trusted them. The point of the Oaths is so that people continue to trust them. Like any doctor, you trust they have your best interest at heart. The Hippocratic Oath, the Hippocraticus/Faustus Oath, whatever. It does need to be grim darked up, and part of that is why their legion is so wrecked it isn't effectively a legion in 40k.

They have control over stuff, but they're just too disassembled to use it even if they wanted to. Faustus would never have been warmaster, he'd have turned it down because he was all about science and medicine. Plus, he was probably hated because he was basically an autist about biology.

If we have other people control their own gene banks I think I'd be fine with that as long as they get to remain the sole Apothecaries though.

>>48153052
Yeah you mostly understand, they are still indoctrinated into the cult mechanicus ideology but separate to the politics and hierarchies as well as entirely separate to the fists of mars. Although the would likely train along side many fists members and gain a certain loyalty to them in an informal sense

>>48153040
Aww shucks.

>>48153045
The issue isn't the day-to-day marines. Thats simple as you say and the FoM dude has a perfectly workable parallel.

The issue and i've said it a few times, and other anons have as well, is that they HOLD THE GENEBANKS.

Its like if the FoM held all the replacement parts to vehicles. One breaks down and you want it repaired not only do you have to go to them and ask, but they can say no, and even if they say yes, now they need to send it to you, and THEN you can start to fix your rhino. Except its not a rhino - its every damn marine in your legion.

>>48153093
Exactly, he just offers a training package, each legion would have their own marines that train their own, but over time people loses skills, casualties occur, knowledge is lost - thats where he comes in, the FoM are a bastion of technological knowledge - but if you want a piece of the pie, you gotta pay (or so I understood his post to mean, feel free to correct).

>>48153112
>If we have other people control their own gene banks I think I'd be fine with that as long as they get to remain the sole Apothecaries though.

This idea is workable. Its essentially the same then as FoM anon. They provide the expertise, but use the legions materials and are monitored, their loyalty would be to the legions, each Oathsworn band sworn to a different legion.

- now that ive written an essay and feel like im putting in way to much, imma take a break and let other anons add to the creativity.

>>48153191
>The issue and i've said it a few times, and other anons have as well, is that they HOLD THE GENEBANKS.

Well then maybe scratch holding the genebanks entirely, though we could say the Oathsworn hold a backup genebank.

>>48153093
>>48153162
>>48153052

Well you may have marines trained to use the tech you have but the fists are the hosts of the cult mechanicus in the western imperium and the two organizations have become intertwined in the post herasy, as such if you want real admech training you need to go through us.

One exception to this is that it can be assumed there is a small cult of the mechanicus within every legion made from tech marines that survived the herasy and passed down the learning within their own chapter although they wouldn't be as skilled as tech marines taught by the fists and mechanicus.

>>48153191
>>48153235
Not that anon, but doesn't Mars hold onto vast storages of gene-seed in 40k? You have to send them tithes of seed for testing and storage, and if you don't you get fucked up like the Astral Claws? There's kind of a precedent, at least for outside organizations holding on to larges amount of back log gene-seed.

>>48153315
Oh, yeah I am pretty sure that is the case.

>>48153315

Yes. Because no one organisation is allowed to have complete power over the ability to create Space Marines. So the question is why don't the Fists of Mars evacuate the Magos Biologis from Mars who specialize in Gene-Seed and set up their own rival service to provide Gene-Seed to the Space marines?

>>48153315
In the traditional canon though everyones on the same side, in this canon its everyone for themselves.

>>48153191
>Its like if the FoM held all the replacement parts to vehicles. One breaks down and you want it repaired not only do you have to go to them and ask, but they can say no, and even if they say yes, now they need to send it to you, and THEN you can start to fix your rhino. Except its not a rhino - its every damn marine in your legion.

I'm thinking about this: It's exactly how the mechanicus works. Genescience isn't an oathsworn secret, Legions keep their own genebanks. However, Faustus' developments in genescience make his Oathsworn legion very good at managing genestock. They're highly skilled mercenaries. Is your legion dying out due to fucked up mutations like the Flesh Tearers? Call the Oathsworn and they'll help you as best they can.

They hold nothing hostage. Every legion has its own apothecarion which manages genestock and stores the master genetic copies. The Oathsworn are more like...problem solvers.

Once the heresy breaks out and their primarch vanishes into the Eye of Terra, all sense of authority among them breaks down. Those who escape east past the firewall form migrant fleets like the Warhawks, roaming Crusader space as Knights Hospitaller.

>>48153396
The Oathsworn open themselves up a lot to the concept of successor chapters. They shatter after the heresy into pieces, which each form distinct cultural identities and heraldry.

Imperium Minorum is definitely full of Angel successor chapters. Alexios maintains a theme system where captains can charter a chapter to conquer/colonise/defend specific areas of space. Lots of different successor chapters, like Ultramarines.

>>48153315
Indeed, the issue, I think, is that the moment Luna falls, the legions are going to want to pull the repositories and hold it under their own facilities and that in a culture of paranoia, you're going to see them wanting to ensure that their apothecaries have primary loyalty to the legion.

>>48153255
That makes sense. The Fists would have the higher arcana of Mars and presumably have the Fabricator General among them, though what if a legion sends their marines to another, more local Forge World?

>>48153376
I like that, and it actually brings the oathsworn down to manageable power level if they have a rival although being said i don't want the fists to be to powerful either.

that being said
>>48153191
>>48153235
>>48153445
Seems to wrap it up nicely i think

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I leave for 2.5 hours guys

>>48153255
opps i mean the eastern imperium.
>>48153507
>>48153162

To be honest i had forgotten about the scaterd forge worlds when looking at the map and my "forge space" I think the more disconnected forge worlds would have been either forcibly taken despite the fist contingents on them or be threatened to be taken after the herasy. Then ,if taken, the forge world would still function but would no longer have access to the larger cult mechanicus and as such risk falling into disrepair, heratec and rebellion from the more fanatical followers. Due to these issues the fists enter dealings with others legions, you let us keep our world in your space and we tithe a certain amount of production to your crusader state. As such the question of tech marine training on these planets doesn't change much, you could also have training of tech marines be the tithe although the fists would haggle much harder on that

all that being said there may be some legions we would refuse to deal with and they would get their mechanicus from enslaved forge worlds which we would be fighting to take back, if thats a story element we want to use

>>48153445
on the note of successor chapters i'm not sure just when we will be going into the stagnation that marks 40k as a setting but if we progress any further than it is i was thinking the bureaucracy and fanaticism of the fists and ad mech combined may lead to splintering into chapters each of which has a different opinion on the wishes of Marcus Sinistrum and his steel coffin as well as some who now believe him to be a divine aspect of the machine god.

For all this talk of mistrust and paranoia, when the hell has anything come from it. Like the only reason the crusader states aren't the East Coast Imperium before of limited talking range. Give us in fighting, give us inter legion hate, give us something fun to fight instead of good vs bad guys. I thought this shit was supposed to be grimdark.

>>48153918
Thats the subject of writefaggotry mostly.

So far they are just setting up crucial timeline events.

>>48153895
I've been thinking, what relationship should the FoM have with the Undying Scions? I'd imagine that it would be somewhat friendly if they need their dreadnoughts maintained, but the might also have their own specialized marine units for that to cut down on any reliance on the Fists. Your thoughts?

>>48154046
Fits in with what the FoM and other anons were saying earlier.

They control the bulk of the knowledge, but each legion would maintain the small sects from before the heresy that would pass on their knowledge, which would be more specialist based.

In your case - very good at maintaining and fitting dreadnoughts, in the warhawks case, capable of running void ships and fighter.

But in their pursuit of speciality they would have lost the wider knowledge. whereas the FoM would have all of it, maybe even have a techmarine or two that are better at it than the techmarines of those legions.

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>>48153918
this guy brings up a good point really and although >>48153967 is right i hope to get something down on the right path. On that note i was wondering if anyone had ideas for rivalries between loyalists and if there were any chapters i might have reason to hate.

>>48153895
Another thought on the topic of the forge worlds is that if we want to get real grimdark and follow the advice of above when other chapters try to take the forge worlds the fists may have done their best to defend them and when knowing they were beaten transport as much as they can back to the forge space before destroying those forge worlds they could not defend.

>>48154046
I expect that you would have your own specialized marines to cut down on any reliance as you say but also maintain a working relationship with us to help with that, as the latest map update had you and me both on the border of the tempus gap i imagine we would be as close allies as one could have in these days and as such id like to delve back into the herasy a bit as i actually have almost nothing about what i was doing in that time. perhaps we were always close?

>>48154202
this guy gets it also just want to say im glad everyone thinks the fists work and that

>>48154315
I think the fists might hate the Kor protectorate for their dealings with xeno and as such refuse to have dealings with them which might give the kor an interesting situation where they have to use alien tech to subsidize their legion equipment as they have very limited mechanicus access

>>48154315
The Hawks would have varying degrees of dislike for the loyalists (excluding the Blades and the FoM)

As they think of them all as having turned away from seeking vengeance.

As for Kor they would see them as outright traitors - a faction thats on the list, just not near the top.

>>48154202
Thats how I saw them working as well.

>>48154389
Makes sense, the Mech would never abide that.

>>48154315
I have very little on that too. Maybe our legions worked together very often and that's how the US were able to maintain that many dreadnoughts through that many active warzones.
>>48154398
Scions too?

>>48154473
>>48154389
This is why I thought it might be beneficial to work out who was fighting where during the great crusade - to figure out the bonds that would have formed.

>scions too?
Take this with a grain of salt, but I think most if not all legions would have issues with them working with xenos, let alone protecting them.

>>48153507
You're at the Tournament, right?

What would you say your personal fighting style is?

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>>48153895
>on the note of successor chapters i'm not sure just when we will be going into the stagnation that marks 40k as a setting but if we progress any further than it is i was thinking the bureaucracy
I've always operated under the assumption that >>48154315
this map was the galaxy as it is in M41. By that time no legion is a legion anymore. Think of the crusader "states" more like alliances of a thousand little alliances. It's feudalism.

Despite our attempts to hash out the timeline of the heresy because muh wiki, I think I might write some more about the XIIth crusade between the Kor Protectorate and Imperium Minorum over "The Tau Question."

>>48154546
Sorry? I never said anything about the Undying Scions harboring xenos. I was asking if the Hawks disliked them for some reason if I wasn't clear enough.

>>48154546
>to figure out the bonds that would have formed.
We did that two threads ago.

>>48154585
Fair enough and go ahead every bit of lore and writefaging is precious, i can't wait to read it

>>48154622
Some of us did but the fists certainly didn't

>>48154667
>the fists certainly didn't
True, true.

>>48154585
I think the legion division into chapters would be a case by case basis, it fits more for some than others.

An alternate might be political sects rising in the Legions, warmongers who want to take up the eternal crusade, expansionists that want the legion to take over more space and more resources, conservatives who want to consolidate what they have and prepare for the inevitable chaos assaults, and a million more.

>>48154600
I meant most factions wouldnt like the idea that the Kor Protectorate harbours xenos - not you. sorry.

I imagine they get along well enough, the hawks would look disfavourably upon the idea of not continuing the crusade, but look favourably that you are the first line of defence along with the Blades.

They would not understand the use of dreadnoughts (for spiritual reasons) but have a strong ancestor /worshipping/ culture - so at the same time they would invariably respect a legion based around the wisdom of the ancients.

TLDR: it would no doubt be complex, but ultimately good relations.

>>48154622
I don't recall reading where everyone was fighting during the great crusade, ill look up the old thread but if you can link to the posts id be thankful.

>>48154727
>I think the legion division into chapters would be a case by case basis, it fits more for some than others.
Ehh, I don't think so. It's not so much about what the leaders want as much as it's inevitable. Leadership breaks down, and legions are fucking huge in terms of numbers. As the primarchs fade away, authority fades away as well.

IMO most primarchs shouldn't be around in M41. Maybe one or two east of the firewall, plus a few mythological loyalists and of course the daemon primarchs.

Alexios might die in the XIIth crusade. Mite B cool.

>>48154745
Fists here Id love that to, I went to

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive.html?tags=Imperium%20Asunder

but only found the 1st thread

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>>48154745
I meant talking about bonds between primarchs.

Mapping out expeditionary fleets could be quite cool, though. Here. Add to this empty map the expeditionary fleets your primarch/legion accompanied. Keep in mind most legions didn't travel in a single fleet, but several, conquering multiple worlds at once and often working with other legions.

>>48154810
>As the primarchs fade away, authority fades away as well.

Which is what I meant by more fitting for some than others.

>IMO most primarchs shouldn't be around in M41. Maybe one or two east of the firewall,

I agree, Raydon most certainly wont live anywhere near that long.

- should we discuss who the 1 or 2 survivors are? That way we can figure out who is dying and then can start working on how they die.

> dead primarchs
Klaus
Raydon
Alexios

>demon primarchs
Enoch and Warmaster almost certainly.

>lucky survivors
possibly the Dreadnought Primarch - gives him an excuse not to be overly active, needs his rest after all.

>>48154745
>>48154823
I postulated at the start that the Emperor sent Enoch and the Judgement Bringers to fuck off to the galactic north and conquer it alone and with little support.

>>48154901
>should we discuss who the 1 or 2 survivors are?
Anders Kor for sure. He should live until the Tyranids come and show him how much of a fool he is for trusting xenos.

Other than that, it could plausibly be Alexios if he's sort of like an old sage almost nobody ever sees and very occasionally with years of ecclesiarchal rites someone of great political station can get twelve words his advice. He'd have a massive as fuck library though. Books upon books.

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>>48154915
Cool works for me.

I wrote up the Hawks as outriders for the main fleets, ranging ahead. So i've marked in pic related where the biggest fleet out have been. (probably with the Primarch for the most part)

>>48154980
Makes sense, no normal mortal has the stubbornness to ignore everything he has too.

They would make compromises.

>>48153918
"Fists of Mars, I get that you want to be the new mechanicum, but Koriel Zeth came and crashed at my place and I've been using Tindalos as my primary forge world for the past century or two, and you keep yelling at me when I put volkites on stuff or build a Razorback, so I'm going to just stick with my guys. No offense."

"Alexios? Yeah, Xun here. I know you're big into the whole imperial truth thing, but according to my Empyrean analysis and my calendric augury, the Emperor is a God now, so I'm going to repeal Nikea in its entirety and also Institute Emperor worship. I talked it over with Engerand and he agrees with me that it's probably a good idea. Hope that doesn't cause problems."

"Kor, frankly I think it's time you pulled your head out of your ass. If you don't take care of those heretics in your borders, I will. If it wasn't for the fact that they were serving as a warp conduit to my realm, I'd let them yank a planet or two of yours into the Warp, just to show you what the rest of us, who live in a little place called 'Reality' are dealing with on a daily basis, but I can't take that risk and I'm tired of getting raided thanks to your negligence."

How's that for a start?

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>>48155060
I added my idea of Alexios' path during the Crusade. I gave him and the Warhawks a conjunction at Octavios as an opportunity for stuff.

Warhawks and Angels in the sky against Ork fighta-bombas and zeppelins with flak cannons and orky forts on the ground?

>>48153918

Wait until the Council of Titans, when the Loyal Primarchs have the biggest falling out ever, with words and fists flying, and then war breaking out along the vaguely defined borders between the Crusader States.

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>>48155079
fukken five star post

>>48154901
>>48154980
Maybe Xun ends up going to seek the God Emperor, and makes sporadic 'apparitions' afterwards, akin to a daemon primarch, but whether he's ascended or lost in the warp remains unclear, but the Jade Empire believes that he sits beside his Father.

>>48154901
>>48154980
in one of the other threads i detailed that Marcus Sinistrum primarch of the Fists of Mars was mortally wounded fighting for mars and had his brain sealed in a grand coffin on a forge world in the forge space (not sure which world) where thousands of computers are hooked into the brain and and high level tech priests attempt to divine his wishes for the chapter

>>48155199
Xun should become obsessed with learning about the Firewall. It's a massive warpstorm and while he's no magnus he's probably the best sane psyker east of the wall. It could become a sort of obsession, trying to learn when openings will occur, or even to make his own openings. One day he sails into the wall and is never officially heard from again.

>>48155131
Oh I forgot, the X near Terra is when Raydon intercepts (and meets) the Emperor and the X far away is where he is when he hears of the Heresy.

>>48155199
Do you attend the tournament?

>>48154901
I never really thought of Enoch as a demon primarch due to how much he hates warp fuckery, but some 40k yeah it makes sense. No apotheosis for him, just a gradual transformation into something inhuman as he spends millenia in the eye of terra. Finally his physical self reflects his inner self, in that he hates what he has become, but cannot undo any of it.

Why are so many of you guys going "oh, xenos are bad, Anders is bad for associating with them" when the Emperor himself didn't hate xenos? I always thought the real xeno-hate came from the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition (2 things that don't exist in this setting). The attitude I'd have expected is "why are you treating them so well?"

>>48155131
>Warhawks and Angels in the sky against Ork fighta-bombas and zeppelins with flak cannons and orky forts on the ground?

Well the Warhawks were divided into a lot of fleets, spread out among the other Legions (as they work best as a supporting effort in actual battles)

So no need to force junctions unless you wanna deal with the Primarch himself.

In saying, maybe we should do up an "EMPEROR WENT THIS WAY" route, and have everyone shoot off of that, to make it more consistant.

>>48155284
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Tournament_of_Blades

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>>48155079
>I approve of this message.

>>48155317
>unless you wanna deal with the Primarch himself.
yeah that's the idea

> "EMPEROR WENT THIS WAY" route,
Emperor is all over the place. This is the dude who literally IS the astronomican we're talking about. He travels with ease.

>>48155140
> Council of Titans

The name stuck!

Good morning everybody.

>>48155284
Yes.
>>48155235
That sir, is a good idea. That's about the only thing that could get him to abandon his empire, particularly if he thinks he can find the Emperor or bring him back.

>>48155386

It's a good name. The Primarchs are often described as Titans of myth, and it is the last time all the surviving Loyalist Primarchs are together in one place.

Question is, what planet does the Council take place on? Was it a proposed capital for the Eastern Imperium before the dream of a united front against the Dark Imperium fell away?

>>48155422
>The Primarchs are often described as Titans of myth,
This gets very frustrating in one of the HH books because there are primarchs and titans on the same battlefield and the moron writer uses the word titan to refer to primarchs.

>>48155419
>Yes.

Then may I have (and write) this dance?

>>48155079
"Hey Faustus? Oh yeah..."

>>48154873
Since Klaus was invented yet at that point we might want to define his relations with his brothers.

>>48155317
So both the Oathsworn and the Warhawks are support legions and roaming around now?

>>48155483
Haha, of course, good sir. I'm thinking he'd wield a glaive or a jian, but I'm not sure.
I'm imagining him having a feathered cloak and having a significantly psychic presence, not quite as strong as Magnus, but still clearly numinous like him or Sanguinius.

>>48155235
Sounds cool,

>677.M34 Reports start streaming in from Astropaths and Psykers throughout the Eastern Imperium that the Firewall is weakening.

>691.M34 Incursions from the Dark Imperium and the followers of chaos increase dramatically.

>704.M34 The Primarch Xun investigates the Firewall, his reasons never clear, though rumours about that he foresees its time at an end.

>714.M34 The Primarch Xun is seen on the Planet Bobqesdt Prime the closest habitable planet to the fire wall. This is the last verifiable account of a sighting of the legendary psyker.

>715.M34 The Waning Firewall mysteriously stabilises, as stable as it has been since its creation almost 5000 years previously. No cause is yet identified.

>725.M34 A small cult arises heralding Xun as the Emperor Reincarnate, claiming he sacrificed himself to fuel the Firewall. Now they conduct ritual slaughter of psykers in his name, in an effort to feed the Firewall to prevent further instability.


>104.M39 A demonic incursion of unprecedented level occurs in vicinity of Bobqesdt Prime, the warp tearing open to spew forth thousands of demons, and spirits that possess latent psykers. Later known as "The Purge" it takes the combined might of 3 crusader states to quell, and over 2 decades to bring and end to the incursion.

>208.M39 An investigation reveals that the slaughter of psykers by an unknown cult led to the warp breach, not an active summoning.

>> laughing tzeentch.jpeg

>>48155217
That is awesome, wish I read it when you first posted.

>>48155601
>Later known as "The Purge" it takes the combined might of 3 crusader states to quell, and over 2 decades to bring and end to the incursion.
Could be a numbered crusade.

>>48155284
Im tracking that so far

Klaus
Engerand
Xun

are the loyalist Primarchs in attendance.

Kashaln
and the Warmaster are the only traitors to say explicitly that they will be there.

Most have only sent tribunes.

>>48155598
And personality/fighting style wise? Would he try to ace the fight with psychic powers before it started?

>>48155655
No Balthazar?

>>48155315
>literally no response
ok

>>48155315
I certainly remember a quote from the Emperor saying that Xenos are bad, Im trying to find it but not having much luck.

More to the point I think it was from a codex which is obviously from the Imperial point of view so ofc they would have him say that.

TLDR: the 40k I know and love has Imperial Hate for Xenos and thats what I signed up for haha.

>>48155079
>>48155499
Hahaha. If you insist.

"Hey, Faustus, I'm honestly like your whole medical ethics thing you've got going on and after what you did over Terra, I trust you. But there's someone that I don't trust. The Warmaster. He's a sneaky git, as you well know. And given that you've got a guys all over the place, I'm not going to be sending my guys to you for training anymore. There's just too many moving parts where an imposter could slip into the system. Your boys with me are fine, I'm not going to evict them or execute them unlike some legions who shall remain nameless, but don't send me any new guys... actually you're dead, aren't you. Bummer. Well, in that case, I'll just address it to the local Oathsworn. So, your daddy is dead and no one will ever replace him. But you've been with this legion for over a century and you've been with us through the Heresy. You're one of us. You're Sky Serpents. What I'm saying is, I'm your daddy now and my house, my rules. Got a problem with that, there's the airlock that you can't go out. Love, your daddy."

>>48155564
No, the Warhawks were rangers for the fleets in the same way the White Scars were.

MOST were doing their own thing, but maybe 1/3 were attached to the other legions as specialists, advisors, and strike teams. (and as it is revealed later the Hawk uses them to stay up to date with what happening as he is so disconnected)

>>48155729
Everything I've read says the Emperor actively tried to negotiate with xenos. I mean, look at the Jokaero. All the actual hate comes from the Imperial Cult, not the Imperial Truth.

>>48155217
Reminds me of the machine spirit in Talon of Horus whose central processor is the main character's little sister. Half mind, half machine, except it's more like 99% machine.

Where do people land on Alexios' fate?

A: The XIIth crusade elevates to total war between the Angels and Paladins. Alexios and Anders face each other on some tau world. They both try to parley and convince each other to "see reason." Things get heated, and Alexios gets killed. In a sort of easily avoidable accident sort of way. A jibe baits Anders too much and he reacts without thinking, or something like that. Regret and self-loathing fill Anders, and Alexios' with Alexios' death armistice is reached, the Paladins retreat in sorrow, and Tau gets the ol Exterminatus.

B: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoetGnTIjWY

He sits in his library of ten billion books in total seclusion as time marches on, an immortal far too old to care about the passing trivialities of an empire. If you pray for years and have a high enough rank and make the right offerings to Ecclesiarchy, they might maybe put you on the 200 year waiting list. If you somehow finally manage to see him, you will be marched past his ten thousand scrivener servitors into his dark, musty officium, where he will hear your petition and offer twelve words of advice.

>>48155734
I hope Faustus anon has him come back as a daemon prince of the Emperor all fucking glowy living saint/Angel of Mercy to fuck with y'all for taking his kids.

>>48155601
Awww hell yeah.

>>48155668
Depends. If it's a tournament bout, then no, he'd fight 'fair'. Otherwise, yeah, he'd totally use psychic trickes.

>>48155678
I thought he was off chasing 2 other legions?

the Red Road to Terra or somesuch. Or did that happen after?

>>48155655
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Imperium_asunder

>2.1 Warhawks
Primarch is absent
>2.2 Knights Exemplar
Primarch is present
>2.3 Paladins of Kor
Primarch is absent
>2.4 Second Sons
Primarch is present?
>2.5 Storm Hammers
Primarch is present?

>>48155734
Do me, do me.

>>48155655
Enoch and Engerand and currently on track as having their confrontation there, a duel which ends with Engerand losing a leg. (I'd say it got asploded off from a stray missile because Enoch isn't much of a fighter) see >>48150591
and >>48150963

>>48155774
I vote A.

Primarchs existing and not doing anything is one of the most annoying parts of the normal 40k canon.

>>48155778
I thought all pretense of fairness was dropped after Garmon killed the other dude.

>>48155793
the Red Road to Terra is where legions at the tournament fight their way to terra trying to be the first ones there so they can protect/kill the emperor or protect/kill terrans.

Balthasar is off fighting Graha'nak and Alexios in the eastern fringes of space so they can't aid Terra. IMO the Sky Serpents and another traitor legion should also be locked in combat somewhere distant from Terra.

Not everyone was at Istvaan. 5v5 is pushing it.

>>48155668
He's going to tend to keep mobile, I suppose he'd fight a lot like the Khan in that regard. He knows he's not the best duelist among the primarchs, but he has custom crafted bling that he forged to make the most of his strengths.
He is likely to make use of prescience during a tournament, particularly since he knows other primarchs like Raydon have similar abilities.

He's the sort to analyze his opponent and then go for it, like in the first Sherlock Holmes movie. It will either be brutal and work great or it won't work and he'll have to get out of the way to avoid the return blow.
I think.

>>48155854
Wait, is this during the actual tournament or is this after the betrayal is clear?

Well there was a suggestion in another thread that the tournament is only the first step in betrayal, not the Istvaan.

Like.

1. Tournament - Silver spears reveal heresy.
2. Everyone gathers to punish the Silver Spears
3. The attack is launched on the Silver Spear homeworld by (say 2 loyalists and 3 traitors)
4. REVEAL
5. Loyalists forces destroyed almost to the man.

>>48155919
I know its abit of a cop out, but you could have the fight go against Xun and him just use his psychic powers to I donno collapse a building on Kashaln, whilst Xun and his marines escape?

>>48155944
I prefer the original plan. One hoodwink is enough for our poor loyalists.

>>48155919
After the betrayal. You're not a traitor are you, because then I would be embarrassed as fuck.

>>48155813
>_<
Unfortunately I think the two more or less see eye to eye.

"Raydon, I know you're out in the danja zone or whatever, taking the fight to the enemy, but get your ass back here. You're not going to bring down the Warmaster by yourself. Come back, if not to coordinate, then maybe to smack some sense into Anders and some of the others. But mostly Anders. And if you're not down for that, at least for resupply. I've finally figured out how to wedge a volkite weapon onto a Stormhawk Interceptor and I think you'll love it. I mean I love it, but that's because I love volkite. And I'm pretty sure you love volkite too, because really, who doesn't like volkite? It's awesome. Choom choom mothafukkas."

>>48155968
Hahaha. He'd totally do that, too.

>>48156018
Ah, gotcha. Then yeah, he totally uses mindbullets. Leaping around like Yoda, but more dignified.

>>48156021
>Choom choom mothafukkas.

Litanies of Xun, Book II, Verse I

>>48155601
I could see the Broken Blades seeing 104.m39 as the end times and running to wherever the breach is.

>>48155841
Now that I think about it, maybe A and B. Tau emerge pretty late, so Mr Librarian old wise man Alexios gets killed by grumpy old curmudgeon Anders?

>>48156114
I just wrote that up as abit of fluff for Xun, but yeah we can definitely make a thing out of it.

If the Blades called, the Warhawks would answer - though they might be abit far away - rockup late and such.

>>48155944
>>48156018
Well TECHNICALLY the small tournament was the original plan because it originated to this tidbit I posted in the 2nd thread
>Enoch was there at the earliest treachery, an event that came to be called the Liar's Game. Six legions were invited to a good-natured tournament to be held on a world recently conquered by Enoch, but when three of the delegations made planetfall, the full might of Enoch's artillery was directed at them. The battle lasted no more than an hour, and at its end some 300 loyal marines had been slain. Tragically for the loyalists at large, the news of what precisely befell the tournament delegations was a mystery, and so they were yet unprepared for betrayal. Although much larger battles and massacres would soon follow, scholars mark the relatively unknown Liar's Games as the start of the heresy.

Since then the tournament of blades (much better name) has evolved into a much bigger thing. I did like the idea that there was the relatively meaningless massacre that TECHNICALLY started the heresy (I mean obviously I liked it I wrote it originally) but consensus seems to be the a big tournament is a badass backdrop for the REAL start to the heresy.

>>48156114
So what's the deal with the Blades after the Heresy? Do they die off with their father? Do they claim crusader state territory? Do they disperse among the other states? What's the dealerino?

>>48156141
I just imagine them reacting to it like it was the habbenings.

>>48156198
I imagine they try to fight the traitors wherever they are, Someone discussed the other crusader states giving them a sort of tithe after the heresy, In recognition of their sacrifice.

I think they have a few planets at most as their holdings with half or so of the legion attaching themselves to the Warhawks as they take the fight to the enemy, the other half split up between garisson and recruitment and holding the tempestus gap.

I dont think they ever get great numbers though, Maybe 1500 or 2000 marines at their peak.

As far as immediately post heresy the chapter is made up of the Prexes I garisson which didnt turn up at Terra, and marines wounded during the red road to Terra who Klaus didnt take with him.

I think in the absence of their father they would form a council made up of the different Knight commanders (Chapter masters) to lead them, Potentially with Detlef Adler leader of Klaus's inner circle at their head (In dreadnought form).

>>48155655
>>48155807
So im tracking

Klaus, Engerand, Xun, and Saul (for the Loyalists)

Kashaln, Enoch, Rubinek, Gengrat, the Warmaster (?) being there.

Good 5 v 4.

Enoch and Engerand squaring off.

Xun and Kashaln squaring off judging from his questions,

I dont know much about Saul but Klaus is meant to be top tier fighter so I think he could fight maybe the Warmaster & one other for a time (since the war master is more of a backseat leader than a front line fighter)

which leaves Saul fighting the last person.

== or we can grimdark it up and have loyalists fighting loyalists as well as they are confused as fuck.

>>48156268
>Maybe 1500 or 2000 marines at their peak.
For the record canon legions have 100,000 to 250,000 marines at their peak. What happened to all your dudes, bro?

>>48156269
Klaus dueling the Warmaster could actually be pretty kickass. It sets him up as a big deal before he falls.

How would the Warmaster, a master of stealth and infiltration to put Alpharius to shame, fight?

>>48156296
Well, I assume we're going off standard legion strength during the heresy which leaves us at 10k marines, I'd say 5-700 survived at most, The loss of their gene seed and equipment along with a marked fall in morale, But if we're going off legion numbers multiplied by 10 then they could always be 15k-20k strong.

>>48156332
>Well, I assume we're going off standard legion strength during the heresy which leaves us at 10k marines,
That is incorrect by a factor of 10.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Marine_Legion#Number_of_Legionaries