Warhammer 40k General

word bearers a shit

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>Orks are a melee race!
>I2

>>47893009
Indeed, because they are heretic scum.

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>>47893021
MOAR! DAKKA!

>>47892793
Better question, what do we want from 8th edition?
Well 40k general? Your in complete control of the basic rule set of 40k for 8th edition. What changes do you make so that it's balanced, good and fun ?
Anything and everything goes, even a complete overhaul. But you can only change the BRB, not the dexes

>>47893001
I like this new OP image

What FAQ are we getting tomorrow?

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>>47893001

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>>47893035
>BS2

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>>47893075
For the Emperor indeed. But Gork'n'Mork are also good.
>>47893074
Playtest for months before release. That's it.
>>47893113
meme related

>>47893001
I laughing more than I should

>>47893073
Change assaults and morale to work like AoS. Remove all points, let the community do the work. After 3 months decide that the most popular fan points system is now the official points system.

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>>47893131
FRANK THE FRANK

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>>47893141
>Remove all points
Too skubtastic. Too risky.

>>47893074
CSM and Orks.

Neither will get their Dreadnought attacks updated, Green Tide will be disallowed again, and CSM Hatred (Space Marines) will be Errata's to only work against Codex: Adeptes Astartes: Space Marines.

>>47893141
Points are in the codexes though.

>>47893141
Jesus Christ, that's about the worst thing you could do.

>new general before the old one is even at page 10

but why

>>47893385
Because OP wanted to make sure his dumb meme image was the one in the OP.
If a genral is created before page 8, this is always why.

What glue do you guys recommend as a citadel substitute?

>>47893395
Testors

>>47893073
>But you can only change the BRB, not the dexes
Half of the shit that's broken is due to content in the codexes, you twip.

Unfucking the assault rules won't fix the shitty armies.

>>47893392
General picture war II when?

>>47893395
Superglue brand superglue gel.

It's leagues cheaper and more reliable than GW and ZapAGap shit.

>>47893392
Yes.

I checked out my LFGS today.
Everyone is playing for fun and apparently there's only one WAAC player in the local scene and nobody plays with him.

>>47893424
The shitty armies wouldn't nearly be as shit if it weren't for some of the overpowered bull other armies can whip out

>inb4 "b-but the free razorbacks are balanced!"

>>47893538
Orks, CSM, and Nids were shit even before SM and Tau got new toys.

>>47893538
>"b-but the free razorbacks are balanced!"

Does anyone seriously believe this? Must be the same people who believe that the Imperial Marine is balanced too.

>>47893527
good shit man

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r8 my orky banner

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I bought a chaos Rhino on a whim.

Is it any good? Should I build the Rhino or the Predator? The Predator looks way cooler desu

WHERE IS DUNCAN?? REEEEEEEEEEE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7XPpxvox5U

>>47893583
Ways to fix Tyranid Warriors without buffing or nurfing them too much. T5 W2 is somewhat less durable though more resistant to ID and T5 W2 3+ is too durable

>>47893001
In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only Frank.

>I4
>All weapons under S7 get +2 shots, all weapons over S6 get +1 shots
Are Orks fixed?

>>47893141
>let the community do the work

well fuck if I'm making the game then I better be seeing some of those GW profits since I *am* GW now

To address the guy from the last thread about a new Deathwatch Codex:

>>47893220
Source? I've heard nothing about that.

Also, new player here:
Why should Deathwatch be playable?
Isn't their fluff about them being specialized towards one Xenos race per group of DW?
How would this be cool if they fought anything else?

Not shitposting, genuinely curious.

>>47893832
No.

As funny as 120 dice from 30 shootaboys could be, it's not a real solution.

>>47893854
>Isn't their fluff about them being specialized towards one Xenos race per group of DW?

No, they are specialists in killing xenos, all of them, every marine is an expert in killing them and shares his experience with the Deathwatch which makes every marine that more knowledgable in the murder of the alien. A crimson fist may know more techniques for killing orks and a space wolf may know more on killing Eldar, together they become more than they used to be.

>>47893854
They could have a Chapter Tactics type thing for Deathwatch. Tailor your tactics to your opponent, just like they do in the fluff.
It'd be pretty broken, but it's not like GW gives a fuck.

>>47893854
>how would this be cool if grey knights fought anything besides chaos daemons?
>how would this be cool if sisters of battle fought anything but traitor marines?
>how would this be cool if dark angels fought anything but chaos marines?

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>>47893709
Build both.
Just don't glue the top door so you can flip flop between Predator and Rhino whenever you want.

>tfw bought CSM Battleforce for super cheap and the goddamn Rhino sprue was missing

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>>47893950
Oh, I wasn't sure you could do that. Cheers ears.

Are either any good on the table? I bought it to add to my Dark Vengeance Chaos Space Marines.

>>47893854
Deathwatch is just the xeno hunter chapter. Similar to how GKs are daemonhunters.

As to why? They've had rules in the past and considering Overkill, now have plastic characters. Repackage them for 20 bucks a pop. Add in a Deathwatch conversion pack similar to the Dank Angles, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and Ultramarines. Boom you have an army.

>Although I'd rather they be Allied Tier like Assassins that is tacked onto an Imperium faction with their Detachment Deathwatch Kill-Team: being 0-1 HQ and 1 Elite.

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>>47893981
>CSM anything
>good on the table

>>47893981
A Rhino is a Rhino. Haven't fielded my Chaos Predator yet, so you'll have to let another anon answer for ya.

Also good on the Dark Vengeance kit.
A lot of folk give it hate for the mono-pose figures, but there's insane value in there, especially if you also play Dank Angels like I do.

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>>47893998
I only play with my friends in my basement. It'll mostly be CSMs VS Orkz.

>>47893709
If you bought the Rhino, you can't build a Predator. It's missing the turret.

Rhinos are pretty decent, especially if you put a Dirge Caster and Combi-Weapon on them and hurl them at the enemy. They get cool toys that Loyalists don't, like Havoc Launchers and Destroyer Blades.

A Rhino with Destroyer Blades, Combi-Flamer, and a Dirge Caster will fuck squads up that it charges, and then any other unit that also charge it after the Rhino Tank Shocks will be able to charge it Overwatch-free. Alternatively, put a Melta on it and sneak around and pop a tank from the rear. You can also have it block a fire lane and then just have it shit out Havoc shots once it's dropped its unit off at an objective.

TL;DR they're useful.

>>47893934
>how would this be cool if dark angels fought anything but chaos marines?

Chaos marines is a funny way of spelling Loyalists.

>>47894020
where's your trip Salazar

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If you had to redesign 40k from the ground up, what would you do? What BRB changes would you make, what niches would you assign to each army, would you combine any codices etc.

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>>47893735
something that people gloss over when talking about how powerful 5th grey knights were is how powerful daemons were. even before the white dwarf update that made screamers and flamers OP they were powerful.

remember how the masque used to able to move models? remember how skulltaker used to rend and instant kill on 4+? remember how screamers and flamers killed everything? there's a reason why chaos daemons got a weird update

>>47894018
>Chaos Predator
I've taken chaos predators in numerous occasions over the past few years, and I can tell you they are 100% useless and a complete waste of points.

>>47894068
>FIRST thing you do
Release every mold as a plastic kit
Including IC
I don't give a fuck how much it costs.

Second thing I do is release Codices for 8e in the general same time area like WMH does while also making all pdfs free. Pirates gonna pirate, might as well give it to them.

Third thing I do is keep everything for [insert faction] in ONE book.

>>47893878
What's the real solution then?

>>47894144
>[insert faction] in ONE book
One book for Chaos, one book for Imperials, one book for Eldar and so on?

>>47894068
Tau don't get Invulns because they lack any sort of Higher Power to worship
Tau units are mostly infantry, current GCs are now MCs

>>47894068
Make tye monstrous creatures type limited to daemons, nids, and actual beasty things like a squiggoth.

>>47894068
Make cover reduce BS. Or cover stacks / interacts with armour saves.

Something to make it that Cover isn't a free invun save...

Also Ignores Cover becomes Ignores Cover (x), where it's no longer and all or nothing.

>>47894068
Figure out how many, say, space marines should be in a list. Assign points value to a a generic space marine. Have one large team work on all the codexes at once using an actual points formula like a normal game company. Keep special snowflakes to a minimum to ensure the formula works. You now habe a solid base for further additions. Remember special rules are like playing with a grenade they can fuck you up.

>>47894187
How would you represent shield generators then? Would you give them AV12 until it breaks?

>>47894162
For the most part, yes. I do think a good exception should be Imperial stuff since half the Codices out there are for Imperial.

But all these supplements and War Zone books getting spit out left and right trigger my autism.

It'd be swell if SW, Champions of Fenris, and Wulfen was all in one book.

>>47894187
>invulnerable saves only represent faith and wards
SoB pls go. Power fields, storm shield and iron halos are all examples of science-based invulnerable saves used by the Imperium of all armies.

>>47894302
>Power fields, storm shield and iron halos are all examples of science-based invulnerable saves

Or are all those idols to the Emperor abd that is why they provide invun saves...

It explains why Tyranids have no invuns.
No Gods = No Invuns

>>47894367
Zoanthropes in 5th edition have 3++ invulnerable saves.

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>>47894068
I'd start by bringing in the best and brightest in game design and let them work on the BRB/Codices. GW has a lot of money, they can bloody afford it.
Secondly, consolidate Assassins, SoB, Inquisition, Grey Knights and Stormtroopers into one mega codex, call it Agents of the Imperium.
Thirdly, cut it out with the Astra Militarum/Adeptus Astartes bullshit. The codices are Imperial Guard and Space Marines.
Fourthly, reduce the scale of the game. Individually based 28mm models are great for platoon/half company sized engagements. Use Epic or somesuch for anything past that.


I'd like to make all the rules free via pdf, reduce model prices and actually advertise the game, but that's outside of a designer's wheelhouse.

>>47894399
>putting stormtroopers in with all the other inquisitive models
W8 are they part of that group?

I always assumed they were a branch of Astra Militarum since they were in the AM codex.

>>47894434
have you not seen that they have their own codex for some reason now?

>>47894434
They're part of the Departmento Munitorum, not the IG proper. They're deployed in support of Imperial forces that have need of elite tacticool operators.

>>47894434
Storm Trooper regiments that are at the beck and call of the Inquisition have always been a thing.

>>47894434
They're both, sorta. The IG has Kasrkin, Krieg Grenadiers and all other manner of regimental stormies. The Inquisition also has stormtroopers, which are attached to an Inquisitor's retinue.

I figure the best solution is to keep Regimental stormies in the IG codex, but meld the Stormtrooper codex with the other Agency related codices.

>>47894399
they don't need the best and brightest; just some people that give more then a few fucks, play the game, and will spend time playtesting.

>>47894367
Firstly, that's some shit bait.

Secondly, then, explain Eldar rune armour. They worship dead gods, aside from Khaine who can't do anything but manifest as a shit MC and Cegorach who gives no fucks.

>>47894068
I'd add an index.


There is only one page for the units which includes fluff, their wargear, statline, and points cost. No double page later on in the book which has what you need in it. Saves space too.

>>47894511
You don't need the best and brightest, but why wouldn't you? Why not make 40k the best designed game on the market?

>>47894520
>Isha

>>47894581
Sorry, I was talking about gods that aren't the literal captive sluts of Chaos Gods.

>>47894542
Going on this:
>remove all fluff from Codices

I mean I know it's nice to flip through the fluff every now and then, especially for noobies, but we have lexicanum. A book of 100% rules would make me cum buckets

>>47894764
You could do a "BRB has all the rules for everybody and everything, but the codices are just fluff" type thing.

>>47894799
Would make less people buy codices.

>+1 S to all hotshot las/volley guns
>change lasguns to assault 2, possibly make volley guns assault 4 but you'd have to shrink it to 18" range for balance

I feel like this could really help stormies deal with, well, everything T4 and above that they currently struggle against.

>>47894764
No, that's a step too far. I just want to remove the redundant pages and merge them.

Plus, Lexicanum has too little fluff, while you can't really trust the other wikis.

>>47893878
In what way is it not a solution? In /tg/'s opinion, what are the problems with Orks?

>>47894824
I'm opposed to the rulebook having ALL rules in it. It would be very large.

Release the Codices with only rules at half price softcover, then release the hardcover ones with fluff, picture gallery, and hardcover for standard price.

Boom, everyone's happy.

>>47894962
orks are outclassed in every aspect of the game, even their random isn't that good and i play chaos daemons.

>>47894764
Make paperback faction rulebooks and hardbound codices. Or include all the rules in the boxes so codices aren't necessary to play the game.

>>47893774
T4 W2 +2 eternal warrior.

>>47894984
4 shots per model at BS2 is the same as 2 shots per model at BS4, which brings them into line with much more expensive Space Marines. They're already better in Close Combat than SM, point-for-point, so what do they actually need to be good?

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New player here.
I play space marines and, unsurprisingly, a lot of people in the store do too.

What are some fluffy reasons for two loyalist chapters to open fire on each other?

While we're at it, since half the factions are Imperium, why would they fight amongst themselves?

>>47895062
invuls would help a lot

>>47895074
Have you even read the fluff? Internecine conflicts abound, mere accusations of heresy can start wars, and the Adeptus Retardes can and do fight with each other over >muh honor.

>>47894918
You're a fucking retard

>>47895074
>Training mission
>Commander A suspects Commander B of heresy.
>Commander A is butthurt about something Commander B did.
>Commander B found some sweet loot that Commander A wanted.
>Daemon/Xeno tricks Commander A into attacking Commander B
>Commander A is an asshat.

All of them are fluff examples of Imperium on Imperium conflicts

>>47895074
Training exercise.
Muddled orders.
They have a bad history with each other.
Those guys just went full heretic.
Alpha Legion.

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>>47895095
Show me your honor!
My honor demands it!

>>47894068
>what niches would you assign to each army
Well first off fuck the tau, I'd add some tasty ways for chaos and admech to be more effective against them, make chaos add penalties to enemy leadership checks(to counterbalance their current shittyness), and give some quasi-psychic powers to the admech(screeching in machine code for weapons to be less accurate or something),

>>47893845
Fans don´t expect profits. Sure GW wouldn´t be able to profit from producing it´s rules, but on the other hand more people who want to play a good game would buy more miniatures.

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>>47895303
Come, show me what passes for honor among your misbegotten kind!

>>47895062
except the marines are shooting better guns. And have various options that give them better shooting.

>better in Close Combat point for point.
no. There are a lot of factors coming into play for this. Attacks, hit and wound rolls, saves, initiative, etc, but orcs are not actually good in close combat atm. Marines being unsweepable, and orks being sweepable and mob rule being a disadvantage more often than an advantage adds to this.

Various solutions have been proposed. Fixed mob rule is top of the list. Base S4 comes up, but I'm personally not a fan, as I feel the S3 T4 statline is an orc thing, but could be fixed by making Choopas S+1 with maybe an AP value.

>>47895140
don't forget, just plan bad info. The actual deception might be 10 lines of interspace telephone back, or not exist and just be terrible miscommunication.

Clear chains of command and lines of communication is not strength of the Imperium.

>>47894399

They changed the names for IP reasons. I think they had trouble getting ownership of the terms since they existed before GW....

>>47895344
You're relying on the idea that fans will
A) produce an actual usable point system that's balanced.
B) fans actually will be ok with you using their ruleset. If something gets big enough to warrant using it as the official point system, it highly likely it's gone beyond a popular homebrew, and there will most definitely be proof that you just stole their ideas. Sure, it's possible that everything will be ok, but it's highly likely that people won't be happy with blantant theft, and could result in a negative reation from the fanbase
Hell, I can already imagine the reactions now:
>why the hell does GW even bother making a system if they're just going to steal someone elses ideas
>If GW just steals their rules, then I might as well just get them from the fans directly.
Congratulations, now you're fired, because you were able to both make fans amd and lose a source of revenue for the company.

>>47895118
y tho

>>47895416
Orks get Bolt Pistols and Storm Bolters. Grey Knights get the same weapons and are far from the worst codex in the game. Leadership is an issue, but that's just as much a problem with Space Marines as it is with Orks.

>>47894399
>I'd start by bringing in the best and brightest in game design and let them work on the BRB/Codices. GW has a lot of money, they can bloody afford it.
>Secondly, consolidate Assassins, SoB, Inquisition, Grey Knights and Stormtroopers into one mega codex, call it Agents of the Imperium.
Both very good points
>Thirdly, cut it out with the Astra Militarum/Adeptus Astartes bullshit. The codices are Imperial Guard and Space Marines.
While I agree, that was for IP reasons. You can't copyright imperial gaurd and space marines.
>Fourthly, reduce the scale of the game. Individually based 28mm models are great for platoon/half company sized engagements. Use Epic or somesuch for anything past that.
I don't know about this. I feel that what GW is planning on doing is probably best: having both the actual models for regular 40k scale, and having epic. There are times when you don't want to deal with giant models and want to just do somthing like epic, and there are times when you want to work really hard on something like the warlord titan, because even though you'll rarely field it, it's a awesome fucking model and fun as fuck to play (at least it looks fun to play). Current system allows for both tastes, and maximizes profit by having more models for people to buy.
>I'd like to make all the rules free via pdf, reduce model prices and actually advertise the game, but that's outside of a designer's wheelhouse.
Advertising the game is a must, but currently the models aren't actually that expensive, in fact most other games are more expensive per model, it's just that 40k requires alot more. As for free ruleset, I think there is a middle ground: have essentially 3 differnt rule books: a quick start one that's not very complex, and good for quick games and introducing new players, a rather cheap version of the BRB and codexes, that just the rules (think like the BRB from dark vengeance) and the current ones they sell, for more dedicated collectors and players.

>>47894068
>BRB
Update vehicle rules. Right now the vehicle damage chart is close to as damaging as it was before you could just hull point something down.
Subtracting remaining HP from the chart has work it the few test games I've done, and seems generally liked.
Give options for pintle weapons and maybe some others to be fired at secondary targets, and possible overwatch.

Charge range is 6+d6. Disordered charges are 2d6, and certain situations that said no charges are now disordered charges. Arriving from reserves, emergency disembark, etc.

Cap on number of dice that can be used for Psykic powers and Deny the Witch. A high cap, like 8 or more, but enough that the daemon army doesn't just get to auto shut down the opposing psykic phase.

Several special rules changes.

I'm actually against having armies be purely a niche. That design is too narrow.

>combined codices.
BA, DA, both get rolled into C:SM. They, and other founding chapters, and stuff like Dark Templar, get formation and detachment options that let them take their more unique style of play. Each gets 1-5 unique characters, and 1-5 unique units.

>>47894190
Wraithlord did nothing wrong.
Wraithknights problem is it's point cost.
>>47895327
>fuck the tau
in their current incarnation, yes.
Back when they started, as a combined arms cooltition force, mixing different types of aliens, ground troops, vehicles, and suits being just another component of this combined force. That was interesting.

>>47895584
>3 different rule books
Pretty much the best way to do it. I remember a decade ago my friends refused to buy codex's and just pirated them and printed out the relevant pages anyway.

Trying to explain to someone new they have to shell out additional money for what used to be a flimsy ass codex to even play was a massive turnoff for getting new players, as minor as it was to scale for how much they would be spending anyway.

>>47895611
There's no reason to fuck with the vehicle damage chart. For every vehicle, it takes the same number or more hits to explode a vehicle as it does to wreck it.

>>47895327
Tau are awesome, mechs are awesome. Why would and should GW not cater to that market. I also don´t understand why more people on /tg/ don´t like mechs since 4chan started out as an anime site.

Sure it´s a bit jarring that Tau started out as the reliastic guys with "giant mechs are dumb", but the thing people forget is that small mechs are equally dumb, so the Tau were never that smart to begin with.

Literally the only problem is the rules, not the theme.

>>47895584
>While I agree, that was for IP reasons. You can't copyright imperial gaurd and space marines.
but you don't need to copyright those things. Just like they didn't need to change it to Orruks and Aelfs to get a copyright.

Other companies have had elves and dwarves and been fine with copyright.

You can't copyright 'Imperial Guard', but if you can copyright 'Warhammer 40k: Codex: Imperial Guard'.

>advertising
according to their reports, changing this and increasing visability is thing they are pursuing.
While model costs, in general, aren't as insane as some say, the entry cost is too high. But again, changing this with getting started kits, snap and play kits, box sets etc.

The price difference between kits, per content, does vary pretty massively though.

>scale
While having apocalypse as an entirely separate game was probably unnecessary, they could do more to try to help the game work at different scales.

Having missions and army building guidelines for <1000pt games, and 2000+ pt games would be better than having one set up for everything.

>>47893001
What do the rules for that Spawn of Cryptus special Broodlord look like?
I was thinking of picking up the new Broodlord to go with the new Genestealers I'm getting from Lost Patrol and was curious if I should go for the special rules as well.

>>47895681
>For every vehicle, it takes the same number or more hits to explode a vehicle as it does to wreck it.
that is simply untrue, especially when you add in that immobilized and weapon destroyed results can make a vehicle useless even if it's technically still on the table.

>>47895794
Do the math. It takes like 0.4 more Meltagun shots to explode a Land Raider as it does to wreck it. It takes almost 2 more Lascannon shots to explode a Land Raider than to wreck it.

Or are you one of those "probability doesn't matter because there was one time I killed a Bloodthirster with a Bolt Pistol" retards?

>>47895062
BS3, +6 Waaaagh save

>>47895712
three bits. One, tau used to be more than just suits. Now they are becoming all suits all the time.

Second: what made tau unique was that they had small scale mecha. Big giant robots had existed in other factions for a while. Having tau use big giant robots actually makes them less unique.

Third: having those giant suits be monsterous and gargantuan creatures makes no sense lore wise, and creates a massive imbalance rules wise.

tl/dr; it's not that giant robots are bad, it's that the tau did giant robots bad.

>>47895712

Fix the fucking ankles, fix the fucking open-topped GMC.

>>47895831
That´s not how math works. You work out the probablity of it exploding after a number of shots. So a vehicle might have a 10% probability of blowing up after 1 shot, 18% after 2, 26% after 3, but then at 3 you also have a 4% chance of wrecking it.

>>47895838
+2 shots is way better than +1 BS.

>>47895873
Orks can't outfire Space Marines.

Give them that DA special rule as well.

Necron Decurion:

Reclamation Legion:

Overlord (warscythe, res orb, veil of darkness)

5x gauss immortals
2x10 warriors

6x tomb blades (shield vanes)
6x tomb blades (shield vanes)
5x tomb blades (shield vanes)

Destroyer Cult

Destroyer Lord (solar staff, res orb)

3x destroyers
3x destroyers
3x destroyers

2x heavy destroyers

Judicator Battalion

Triarch Stalker
5x praetorians with rods
5x praetorians with rods

That's 1850pts. Look ok?

>>47895831
oh, you're doing the expected value thing.
First, as said, other results can make a vehicle off the table.

Second, that's not the case, as hull points to likely hood of explodes results differ between vehicles.

Third: averages lie, or at least deceive. The expected value doesn't tell the whole story. The vehicle damage table as is means that there exists the possibility that one shot from a 15pt gun/model removes a 300pt model.
That creates a level of swing that is not good for the game. And it combined with the other results on the vehicle damage chart lowering a vehicles usefulness, means that vehicles have reduce value for their point cost, compared to non-vehicle options.
This problem gets worse as you go up in point cost of the vehicle.

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>>47895732
>What do the rules for that Spawn of Cryptus special Broodlord look like?
You can get them Stealth and Shrouded if you pay for a very badly kitted out Warrior brood and a semi decent Carnifex tax

/tg/ I'm seriously debating quitting 40k and selling my orks.

My local TO group just decided to ban any FW stompas, and so I went into this last tournament with a 45-bike Zhadsnark list. I lost all 3 rounds due to Ignore Cover/Psychic Shreik, and in one game, I got tabled by turn 3. (turn 2 I had 7 bikes left).

I'm struggling to see how I'll be able to win any games except against beginners again.

Help me make up my mind, should I sell my orks? I have around 5000 points of Orks, but with the FW stompa ban and so much ignore cover (as well as our book being the absolute worst in the game) I'd basically be showing up to lose by turn 3.

On one hand, I've had the army for years, and I like Orks. On the other hand, I'll never have them be viable again in any sort of local tournament.

>>47895955
Have you tried arguing with the store?

>>47895955
Don't play tournaments, hang on to your army. Things will turn around eventually and if you have that many orcs I'm sure you've put a lot of time and effort into them. At some point you will be able to find people that are more fun to play against or your codex will become more playable.

>>47895955
>selling my orks
Just stick them in storage until the next codex makes them broken then sell them at a premium

>>47895840
First, no they are not. GW has been developing the least developed part of Tau, big mechs. Why? Because it sells, big mechs are awesome, even without the bullshit rules. Could they have added 3 more minor units? Sure, and that would be great, but big mechs should come before the 3rd and 4th alien auxiliaries IMO. So GW did nothing wrong themewise IMO.

Second: Except for the fact that the big tau mechs are as unique as the small tau mechs. The small Tau mechs are just terminators with jet packs, the big ones are just dreads/knights with jet packs. I do agree on the uniqueness part.

Third: Rules, as I said, are shit, concept is fine. They could have easily been vehicles.

We can agree that the rules are bad, but Eldar mechs have a very unusual aesthetic, while pleasing, just isn´t what I as a mech anime fan am looking for. No army could have these types of mechs, the imperium is too clunky and the eldar are too lithe, the Tau have the right amount of clunkyness and grace to make them just right.

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>>47896023
>Just stick them in storage until the next codex makes them broken
>Orks

>>47895955
Keep orks, don't play tournaments, play fluffly games with good friends, narrative campaigns (if you have someone willing to put time into putting them together) are extremely fun.
Just wait a while. Orks aren't competive right now, but that's no reason to quit the hobby all together. Tournaments and competive games aren't everything.

>>47895845
Tau have hooves, it´s only natural that their mechs are similar is it not? I don´t get what you mean by open-topped?

>>47896035
>GW has been developing the least developed part of Tau, big mechs. Why? Because it sells, big mechs are awesome, even without the bullshit rules. Could they have added 3 more minor units? Sure, and that would be great, but big mechs should come before the 3rd and 4th alien auxiliaries IMO. So GW did nothing wrong themewise IMO.
Your opinions are shit.

>>47896006
Yeah, there's a powergamer there (who is friends with the TO) who complained that my stompa was Overpowered because his Daemon summoning list wasn't a good matchup for it.

That tournament was a while ago, and after that, they announced that they would not be allowing FW stompas anymore. Seeing as I am literally the only ork player for miles around, I assume it was just spite.

This store is the only local one that does tournaments. The other ones are far smaller and focus more on MTG.

>>47895924
Tomb blades should have ignores cover if you want to maximize effectiveness per point.

It´s a very strong army anon, I hope you are brining it against someone who knows what you are bringing?

>>47895712
When I want mechs, I go and play Battletech. Also, that market that GW caters to happens to be full of the most carcinogenic players this hobby has

>>47895938
You can ammend this rather easily by not making Land Raiders cost an absurd quarter thousand points.

>>47896023
Yeah, no. Orks tend to skip updates (7 years without a new book) and each book after third has just been making Orks worse. Our units stay the same or get more expensive, and every other book gets power creep.

I don't feel like Orks are getting a buff to competitive anytime soon.

>>47896082
Probably gonna have to air your problems out to other tournament players and gang up on the organizer as to how you got singled out.

>>47895732
>What do the rules for that Spawn of Cryptus special Broodlord look like?
It looses all the upgrade options in exchange for Preferred Enemy. Isn't he special?

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>>47896081

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>>47896065
>I don´t get what you mean by open-topped?

>>47896107
doesn't solve the problem. The swing is the problem.
If you bring points down too much, they become too good unless you get the swing result.

Point costs should be adjusted, but some effort to reduce that swing are needed, or on a broader note, something to make vehicles not strictly worse than a similar non-vehicle unit. Or at least reduce the scale of that disadvantage.

>>47895955
>YA DON'T PLAY ORKS FOR DA WINS, BECUZ DA ORKS ALWAYS WIN! ANY GROT KNOWS DAT.

seriously bro. Orks always win if you're having fun. Find some people who don't power game, amd keep on keeping on.

Tl:Dr don't quit

>>47896126
They won't give a fuck. The TO lives like 70 miles from me, and would only see me at tournaments.

I don't have anyone to gang up with.

For context, I'm in a university town(student), and the tournament store is a building that is zoned as a Warehouse that is 30 minutes away.

I could try to convince the other students to boycott, but there's a chance that the yokels there would actively appreciate that.

>>47896145
What are you trying to prove? That mechs aren't shit, esspecially weeaboo ones in a setting that's heavily influenced by western history, gothic everything, metal of all forms, lovecraft, Tolkien, dune, starship troopers, 2000 A.D., warhammer fantasy obviously, alien, terminator, etc, ect?
Mechs are shit, and tau mechs are shit and out of place in warhammer.

>>47896203
Yeah just play with the other students I guess, if space is a concern building your own zone mortalis board could work.

>>47896035
>mech are awesome and everything should have more mechs.
Look, if you like mechwarrior, go play mechwarrior. Not everything should be the same.

>just as unique
>The small Tau mechs are just terminators with jet packs
first, just plain untrue. Second, being jetpacks fundamentally changes the way they move, and movement is an important part of the game.

>the big ones are just dreads/knights with jet packs
then they should be vehicles, just like dreads and knights.
Also, the difference in movement goes away for the GC. So it's just the GC vs vehicle difference. It's just a knight. So no uniqueness.

>concept is fine.
Disagree, but on this I'll admit it's a matter of personal opinion.
Not expanding on the combined army aspect of the tau and just making them all suits makes them more bland to me.

Tau's uniqueness came from them no only having small mech suits, but them being the army without giant robot suits. Now they are more samey internally, and externally.

>>47895840
>One, tau used to be more than just suits. Now they are becoming all suits all the time.
There are the flyers, but it is getting a bit lopsided, true. It's a great shame that GW is not expanding on the alien allies of the Tau. There's so much fertile ground there for creative units (in gameplay and model design).

>Second: what made tau unique was that they had small scale mecha. Big giant robots had existed in other factions for a while. Having tau use big giant robots actually makes them less unique.
Eh... No. What made Tau unique was many, many different factors, of which battlesuits were only a part of. Whilst 'suits play a bigger role now, I'd say that they're still different enough. Only the Taunar is truly aping Titans.

Third: having those giant suits be monsterous and gargantuan creatures makes no sense lore wise, and creates a massive imbalance rules wise.
Lore-wise, Tau plug into battlesuits like the Matrix, using them as they would their body and going so far as to mentally suffer when taken outside after prolonged periods in the suit. I'd concede that Stormsurges should probably be walkers, but either way any imbalance is solely down to points cost. For instance, I think Dreads should just have dropped in points, rather than being given more attacks.

>>47896199
Literally the last 5 games I have played, and the last 7 with the list that I would have to use, I have been tabled, usually by turn 4 or earlier.

I can't seem to move out of a 5th edition mindset of listbuilding (I only go single-CAD, I spam troops(the list is all Warbikers and Zhadsnark with Gunwagon Tankbusta support with Deffkoptas)) , and every time I play someone not at the university-town store, I get to see stupid shit like 'riptide wing, 2 stormsurges, 3x1 crisis suits, commander with drone brigade'

I organized a tournament with rules designed to discourage cheese, and no-one showed up besides the people who show up every saturday, to the point that we had to cancel the tournament.

>>47896259
Not him but
>mechs are shit
>but dreads and titans are okay

Is 1d4chan down or is it just me?

>>47896259
not him, but the tau were originally about having lots of aliens allied with them and people expected to have more than just kroot as allies

instead GW realised that (mainly because they were more effective AND cheaper to buy) crisis suits were very popular, so they just went full throttle mechasuit race

>>47896299
no it's down for everyone.

>>47896259
>no place
I'm going to disagree here, and I'm a guy who hates the new bigger mechs.
40k doesn't have a single consistent aesthetic. It has a broad range of aesthetics, something not being the same as those existing parts can just be an expansion of that range, rather than a contradiction to it.

Also, giant robot suits of many different types was a part of the setting.

was it just in 6th edition that grenades hit walkers on 6+? or is that in 7th edition?

>>47895872
Marine w/ Meltagun vs Land Raider at 5":
>1 shot * .66 hit chance = .66 hits * .72 glance chance = .48 hull points per shot
>4 hull points / .48 = 8.33 shots to wreck

>1 shot * .66 hit chance = .66 hits * .58 pen chance = .39 pens per shot * .33 explodes change = .13 explodes per shot
>1 explosion / .13 per shot = 7.69 shots to explode

Marine w/ Lascannon vs Land Raider:
>1 shot * .66 hit chance = .66 hits * .33 glance chance = .22 glances per shot
>4 hull points / .22 = 18.18 shots to wreck

>1 shot * .66 hit chance = .66 hits * .17 chance to pen = .11 pens per shot * .17 explodes chance = .02 explodes per shot
>1 / .02 = 50 shots to explode

Marine w/ Meltagun vs Land Speeder Storm from 5":
>1 shot * .66 hit chance = .66 hits * 1.0 glance chance = .66 glances per shot
>2 hull points / .66 = 3.03 shots to wreck

>1 shot * .66 hit chance = .66 hits * .97 pen chance = .64 pens per shot * .5 chance to explode = .32 explodes per shot
>1 / .32 = 3.13 shots to explode

Marine w/Lascannon vs Land Speeder Storm:
>1 shot * .66 hit chance = .66 hits * 1.0 chance to glance = .66 glances per shot
>2 / .66 = 3.03 shots to wreck

>1 shot * .66 hit chance = .66 hits * .83 chance to pen = .55 pens per shot * .33 chance to explode = .22 explodes per shot
>1 / .22 = 4.54 shots to explode

Still think Explodes! is too powerful?

>>47893774
Would T5 W3 be too much as well? Could always give them a purchasable +1 to their armor like in 4e too.

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I just noticed this re-rading the CSM dex.

Apparently all 20 primarchs we found.

>>47896260
Yeah, it's just that doing so would limit me to a group of 7 players, instead of 40+

>>47896353
Yes, and the lost primarchs were lost again. It's implied SW dealt with one (or perhaps both) and I don't remember what happened to the other, but I do remember reading about it.

>>47896271
>only the taunar
Storm surge. It's a fucking knight titan.

>Lore-wise, Tau plug into battlesuits like the Matrix, using them as they would their body and going so far as to mentally suffer when taken outside after prolonged periods in the suit.
so do fucking Titans.

>solely point cost.
No, rules for vehicles GCs and MCs are different enough that it's not just point cost. Though point cost is a problem.

Now, I will admit that the riptide could be okay with some significant rules changes. point bump, save changed to 3+, removal of several upgrade options.
The ghostkeels shouldn't be MCs imho, reduce their wounds, and make them jet infantry.

>>47896353
We already know that.

>>47896353
I think that's been known for a while. According to the Horus Heresy books, something happened before the Heresy that led to two Primarchs being wiped out/exiled. Wolves may have been involved as executioners.

>>47896324
I was merely arguing that the math shown wasn´t good for anything. Because you are not going to explode a vehicle after x number of shots or going to wreck it after x number of shots. You are going to have a chance to blow it after every shot and a chance to wreck it (no earlier than after 2-4 shots).

>>47896413
>Storm surge. It's a fucking knight titan.
No it's not. From a rules stand point, look stand point, and even a lore standpoint, the stormsurge is nothing like knights, save for the fact that both are walkers

>>47896352
>Would T5 W3 be too much as well?
Kinda, It's an obvious buff which is something I would like to avoid because I wouldn't wish to see Warrior point cost going up. They are fine as they are but that damn Strength based ID.

Perhaps it would be better to make it so that you would need x2 +1 Strength to ID things. It would help all armies instead of just Tyranids

>>47896401
Seven isn't so bad, in fact smaller clubs are generally more personable and less WAAC.

>>47896422
>>47896421
I always understood it eith one as having never been found.

>>47896401
sell your orks and try out 30k instead. pre-heresy world eaters are pretty much the closest thing 30k has to orks. either way it'll be better than 40k orks

>>47896408
Both were killed by Leman Russ, for two different reasons.

Sanguinius feared that his legion would have meet the faith of one of the lost one if the Emperor discovered their geneflaw.
So one of the lost Primarchs were killed because was corrupted in some ways.

One seems to have been killed because he committed some serious atrocities.

Also Lorgar became a very close friend with one of them, so one was probably some kind of wise /well educated primarch like Magnus.

>>47896492
One was too aberrant and the other too unwilling I think? Something like that.

>>47896465
3 of them own less than 1000 points.
>>47896508
I actually have 3000 points of Raven Guard and 4000 points of Taghmata. This just leads to the issue of me being the only 30k player locally, and the semi-local group spergs out at the mention of 30k.

>>47896443
>from a rules standpoint
the rules a fucking problem, because the damn things a walker.

>look standpoint
given that it probably the worst looking tau model, not helping your case

>lore standpoint
It's a giant robot with guns for arms, that's a fucking titan. I suppose it having just guns for arms means it's different from the knights, by being more like the other forms of titans.

Now, by bigger problem is, why does it have legs and not just being a tank if all you want is a giant thing covered in guns.

Unless it's to give it the much more powerful GC rules, which are a problem.

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>>47896565
>It's a giant robot with guns for arms

it doesnt have any arms...

>>47896455
or you know, the old synapse rule which said it couldn't be ID by double strength.
It is kinda dumb that they had the solution, then decided to get rid of it.

>for all armies
no. I'm going to come down and say stop this again. Nids need protection against this, but keep the damn x2 strength is ID for everyone else.

>Storm surge. It's a fucking knight titan.
Very different. Stormsurge is more of a mobile artillery platform whilst Knight is a top-tier shocktrooper.

>so do fucking Titans.
You're right, I forgot my Titan fluff. Maybe the walker rules are better to represent "slower" mechs? Though probably, someone decided that the Riptide should just be an upsaled XV8, keeping the non-vehicle profile, and then someone else decided that that's just how all battlesuits will be.

>No, rules for vehicles GCs and MCs are different enough that it's not just point cost. Though point cost is a problem.
I'm afraid I disagree. I believe that most things wrong in 40k balance could be fixed by better points costing. Vehicles and MC rules are very different, yes, but the points should reflect that.

>Now, I will admit that the riptide could be okay with some significant rules changes. point bump, save changed to 3+, removal of several upgrade options.
I've always thought that the Ion Interceptor should just be an Ion Cannon. That and a points bump is all it really needs I think. Or just the 3+ armour.

>The ghostkeels shouldn't be MCs imho, reduce their wounds, and make them jet infantry.
Eh, they're Carnifex-size though. In my opinion, they're balanced as they are, outside of the Optimised Stealth Cadre.

>>47896544
jesus christ, people will bring undercosted wraithknights, grav spam, and skyhammer formations out the asshole but STILL have a problem playing against 30k armies?

>>47896614
what are the things to the left and right of the upper torso.

>>47896659
They had to be petitioned to let me bring Taghmata to Apocalypse.

>>47896663
missile pods, this raises some questions though

do you know what arms looklike?
do you have any arms?
if you dont have arms how are you typing? i'm honestly impressed

>>47896633
>or you know, the old synapse rule
This, I totally forgot that this was a thing.

>>47896427
Melta vs Land Raider
>Explodes
1 shot = 13% chance
10 shots = 75% chance
>Wrecked
1 shot = 0% chance
10 shots = 79% chance

Yes, there's a chance of having your Land Raider exploded in one shot that's high enough that it can't be ignored. But it's still not the most likely way to lose your vehicle, and it adds a reason to stay the fuck away from people with Meltaguns.

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Serious question:

Can a space marine impregnate a woman?

Thanks.

>>47896614
As a tau player I really wish they made it some kind of super hammerhead rather than another mecha. Would have fit the firebase theme better, make more sense for tau mobility, would make sense to have hammerhead crews, use vehicle rules, and not look completely retarded.

>>47896746
Unknown, but presumably not. If it is possible, the children are humans rather than Space Marines.

>>47896746
Ywe don't know but probably not, and at any rate the child would be just a normal human

>>47896656
>stormsurge is a mobile artillary platform
why that's not a tank becomes a question.
Why that's different from a titan becomes another.

>slower mechs
no, they work fine for titans too. Mechs are walkers.

>just solve everything with points
you suck at game design then.
Points are an arbitration, and that arbitration can occlude the actual ways rules are interacting.

It can create situations where there is no good point cost.

See the 'one shooting a land raider' problem. The problem is wild swing in terms of how that plays out. No point cost can solve that swing. While very cheap units can work with the posibility of being taken out by one shot, those units are also typically vulnerable to a wider range of hits, and have less potential offensive output if that shot fails.

Having a land raider that was cheep enough that the potential one shot kill wasn't a problem to take it would me that it now becomes in being too good because of it's immunity to a lot of other shooting, and potential offensive output.

Points are a very limited vehicle for fixing things. While point costs should be a factor in fixing a lot of 40ks problems, several things are problem of type and adjusting points would not be the effective means of solving this problem.

>>47896759
I play tau aswell and wish that there were more than one fucking tank design

I love choosing from:
Devilfish
Devilfish with railgun
Devilfish with Ion cannon
Devilish with seekermissiles

I really need to get myself a rail hamemrhead and fuck around with longstrikes BS5 hilarity

>>47896702
>what do arms look like
things coming off the upper right and left of a humanoid torso.

>how are you typing
so a warhound titan doesn't have arms and therefore the stormsurge is a fucking titan.

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>>47896702

>>47896843
the warhound has guns for arms

the stormsurge has missilepods for shoulders

>>47896851
this is amazing

>>47896811
Hammerheads are a lot of fun, I do agree with you about variety though. GW is just going to push out more suits instead of updating vespid models or producing different vehicles or auxiliaries though.

>>47896724
but is that chance good for gameplay?
If it was just meltas, and needing to avoid them, maybe you'd have a point.

But the chances that brightlance immobilizes (ie removes from usefulness) or explodes a land raider on a pen is still 33%. and 'staying away form' that isn't an option. Even bringing in chance to pen, that's 22% chance of an incidental shot from a cheap long range gun removing a high point cost unit.

So, is this adding something good to the game?

>>47896565
>It's a giant robot with guns for arms, that's a fucking titan. I suppose it having just guns for arms means it's different from the knights, by being more like the other forms of titans.
No, not it's not. The tau mechs act as tanks basically, you have a giant gun on it which it shoots.
Knights are not substitutes for tanks, they're giant infantry. They move like a human does, can engage in combat like a human does, shoots their massive guns like a human would shoot a normal gun, and is literally linked to and direclty controlled by the mind of a human. Knights aren't just walking gun platforms like tau mechs, they're DAoT humanity's response to not having extremely large and powerful infantry, and having massive foes like wraithknights, stompas, and certian ork warbosses that are essentially massive infantry.

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>>47896452
hope im doing this right

>>47896145
Is that fucking Aldnoah.Zero?

>>47896811
It's a running theme for GW with tanks.

Eldar have:
>Falcon
>Falcon with gay shield instead of pewpew laser
>Falcon with crystal gun
>Falcon with artillery

Marines have slightly more variety:
>Rhino
>Rhino with turret
>Rhino with bigger turret and sponsons
>Rhino with a gun
>Rhino with artillery
>Rhino with AA
>Various flavors of Land Raider

I could go on, but my point is even IG only really have two main tank patterns unless you count the Taurox and FW, althoguh the Chinera chassis sees some actually apparent modification in some configurations (Hellhound, Basilisk).

>>47896865
>the warhound has guns for arms
The war hound is also a scout titan, something extremely different from every other titan or any of the giant tau mechs

>>47896913
Tau should've been about having a wide variety of xeno races and units, which would give them a semi-unique playstyle, not mechs that aren't even walkers. Give me more Kroot, Vespud, and other xenos, not Generic Mecha #471

The mechs should be Walkers, not Monstrous Creatures.

>>47896913
that's an argument for why the warhound titan and stormsurge titans are both different form the knight titan.

So I will admit, that the stormsurge titan is not like the knight class titan.

>>47896174
Am I the only one who misses the days of 5th edition when vehicles actually felt durable? I ask this because this weekend I played at the Clutch City GT in houston and the only way that my AV13 vehicles were killed was by being glanced out by massed strength 7. I remember when I started this game if you wanted a vehicle dead you brought serious antitank.

Just wondering if I'm the only one who finds the current lack of vehicle durability frustrating.

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Does anybody else feel like 40k should be fixed at a BRB level, rather than trying to balance a decades old rule set?

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>>47896917
Fair enough.

>>47896910
I agree that the lower results on the table can also be crippling, but subtracting 2-4 from the pen table rolls doesn't meaningfully change the chances those results. Only full HP Land Raiders will be able to push Weapon Destroyed off the table, and Crew Shaken and Crew Stunned are devastating for non-transports. A better fix for vehicles is to leave the table as it is, but make 1-3 have no effect.

>>47897027
Whoops.

>>47896961
while I totally agree with the limited number of tank chassis being a problem, at least with forge world they seem to try to expand the patterns

Tau are just getting more suits, when they should be getting another tank body.

>>47897001
Vehicles should indeed be durable, but the points need to reflect this. And there's no way in hell Games "Free Rhinos" Workshop is gonna do that.

>>47897012
40k needs to hire Alessio or... really anyone and have them re-do the ruleset.

I could definitely do a better job than 40k is in in it's current state.

>>47896981
>that's an argument for why the warhound titan and stormsurge titans are both different form the knight titan.
Are you seriously using the warhound as your argument for why the stormsurge is like a titan?
The warhound is a scout. It's job is to scout ahead, and to draw enemies to the much larger titans.
Guns on the warhound are really secondary. It's about movement first and foremost.

It's purpose is nothing like the mobile gun platform that is the stormsurge.

>>47897027
>Fine leg
>Square Leg
Do these positions have leg requirements?

>>47897048
Well that I agree with. Whatever happened to the rumor that Tau were getting a big fuckoff tank from FW? Was it proven false? Was it just the Barracuda rerelease?

>>47897001
I don't exactly miss it, because stripping off weapon by weapon, then immobalizing, then finally getting the wreck result wasn't fun.

The reason I like the subtracting remaining HP from damage results is that it captures some of that feeling of wearing down the vehicle, without the 'for the love of fuck how much do I need to shoot at this' sort of durability.

An idea that was floated to me recently was swapping the glance and pen effects.
Glances roll on the table at -2, while pens roll and remove a hull point. So pens are compromising the internal hull, even if they didn't make a significant component break or explode.

>>47896961
To be fair, many real life milltaries also use the same chassis on many of their tanks, and for good reasons.

>>47897032
I disagree here, because weapon destroyed is signficantly less crippling than immobalized, even on things with a single primary gun they have other guns that give an effective 'save', and you've pushed that to a low likelyhood, of happening.

Crew shaken/stunned are temporary. and that's a very different thing. It requires that you keep hurting the vehicle, or it's an effective thing the next turn. It's much closer to pinning or moral checks when regrouping is likely.

IMHO the big problem is the chance for one shot to permanently disable/remove an expensive target. Which is a problem unique to vehicles. You're proposed fix does nothing for that.

>>47893073
Every unit has half of its normal save as an invuln save when resisting shooting. A 2+ becomes a 4++, a 3+ becomes a 5++, etc.

Now everyone can have as much shooting as they want without it cracking the game.

Vehicles all have a save to convert pens into glances, 5+ for normal vehicles, 4+ for heavy, 3+ for super heavy.

So what exactly is the problem with veichle durability, and how could it be fixed?

>>47897080
okay, so the stormsurge titan is like the reaver class titan.
Or at best, the stormsurge titan is new class of titan.

>>47897200
just have Toughness across the board and scrap AV

>>47893141
>remove all points
kill yourself

>>47897215
Either way, its a titan

So I checked out my local game store today, and the people are super friendly and I really wanna start with the hobby again now.

The store manager tried to get me to buy the Dark Vengeance set even though I wanna play Imperial Fists, instead of buying Betrayal at Calth because DV has the rules and templates and a 30 € coupon and shit. I can't really choose.

What would you do?

>>47897178
What militaries have a gorillion variants of the same chassis? Aside from the former ComBloc states who have a thousand different T-XX and BM variants.
Most NATO nations have different chassis for different roles, rather than using the same frame for everything (as far as I know).

>>47897242
Buy the army you want to play and get the rules from the mega link in the OP.

>>47897194
>everyone gets invulns all the time
that's maybe the worst suggestion I've ever heard.
I mean, it makes cover irrelevant, while most people complain that they wish cover did more to help armored infantry, rather than being more pointless.

>all vehicles convert pens to glances.
I've though of having 'tank' be an actual class that did more than just give 'tankshock' and gave an extra protection, especially in the front arc.
But this goes way to far, and fucks with a lot of other army specific rules.

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>>47897229
The bait is weak and cold, why respond?

>>47894023
That is an impressive array - will pass note to friend trying to make up mind on what sort of heavy support to pick up and magnetizing a predator can make it a very versatile thing indeed.

>>47897226
>implying that's the problem
If you wanted to cut out the having different values for different facings, which is one of the few things that makes vehicles feel like vehicles.

or do you want to keep that, but now have to include different toughness values.
Are we going to allow everything to be poisoned? Oh, what about toughness checks, if you're going for multiple values, how do you resolve this?

Or did you actually mean the vehicle damage table is the problem?

>>47897215
Once again, nope. The reaver, like knights, is essentially massive infantry. It can be out fitted for melee or for shooting, and is officially a "multi-role titan".
Just give up. Their is litteraly no titan that serves the same function as the stormsurge, because unlike the tau, DAoT man wasn't stupid enough to use a walker in place of a tank.

>>47897271
No, it doesn't. Cover saves are going to be better than the invulns on the vast majority of cases, this just allows armies to survive the unmitigated bullshit that is "give everything high strength and low ap." A 6++ invuln lets guards and Orks actually have a chance in the game, something they currently lack.

Most of those army specific rules are dumb and will be changed no matter what happens. Fixing the game requires making structural changes, the problems go deep.

>>47897242
Betrayal at Calth will be better since its the army you want to play and has decent value in and of itself. Just buy the templates, use the mega for now, and pick up a physical codex when you can.

>>47897320
You can have different T values for each facing, with vehicles being immune to most toughness checks. if there is a T check specifically for a vehicle, it would be resolved using the facing nearest to the model, as normal.

then have wounds, and after taking X wounds in one round, it is stunned/shaken

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>>47897294
>ika musume and kodomo no jikan

Not only are you a weeb and a pedo, but also a one with shit taste.

>>47897416

nope

>>47897242
Get Betrayal at Calth. It's about 1,000 points by itself, plus it's not monopose models and has special weapon upgrades.

Another bonus is that you can play 30k with it as well.

>>47895611
Charge range should be 2d6, can swap one d6 for I value if desired.

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Yo guys after lots of digging I've finally found a bunch of the chinamen.
After a bunch more digging I figured that only one of them actually carries the model I'm looking for, and it's probably the most expensive one.

So I got to ask, how are miranda's casts?
Are the okay? Passable at least?

This is my last hope but I don't want to just throw my money away if its garbage.

Fighting psyker armies be boring

>>47896086
Nope. Against my buddies Ork army. He really loves foot slogging infantry, and I'm a piece of shit

>>47897468
>nope

Great fucking retort, how very typical of a shit taste weeaboo.

>>47897556

Miranda is alright. What do you want to get?

>>47897257
Stryker chassis is used for a whole bunch of shit (granted, it's not an MBT). Abrams chassis is also used for the wolverine. It's not uncommon at all.

>>47897556
In terms of quality she's probably one of the best, just generally more expensive than the others.

I say go for it.

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>>47897588
I thought the picture kind of explained that.
Need that Noise.

>>47897601
Alright, that is at least comforting to hear.
I'll probably end up ordering it regardless.

>>47897371
>>47897491
Thanks guys.

>>47893709
>anything chaos
>asking if it is good
What would you put in it?

>>47897581
>you

>>47896917
Fucking britbong.
Vote to leave already so I can cash in on a huge FW order for cheap

>>47897373
that doesn't sound like 'just being Toughness'. That sounds like a change to vehicle damage table.
And of course doesn't address the poison, haywire, melta, armor bane problem.

>>47897632
>>47897601
>>47897588
GW punitive expedition to the Chinese Empire when?

>>47897553
>yoked-up Librarians with d6+9 charge range

Trying to piece together a first list, so far I've only got a Heldrake and two CSM squads in Rhinos, equipped with dual melta and dual plasma.
Would it be less bad to have the Lord take a Jump Pack and join a squad of like 7 Raptors, or have him in Terminator armour footslogging with a squad of Chaos Terminators? I understand that a bike would probably be the best choice, but which is better out of the options above?

>>47897670
Is that as game breaking as Tau/Eldar shit now?
And I was thinking more no more failed 3 inch charge (unless Tau or Orks but fucking over Orks is just something that happens to them always)

>>47897339
this doesn't sound like an argument in favor of the stormsurge titan. or an argument that it isn't just another class of titan.
and certainly not an argument that it shouldn't be a super heavy walker like all other titans.

>>47897553
so punish orcs more?

>>47897666
Well true, but now i like this idea. Vehicles are immune to fleshbane/poison, haywire counts as poison vs vehicles, lance reduces toughness by 2, humm Armour bane is tough, maybe shred?

>>47897706
>failed 3 inch charge
That's my favorite sex position because it's the only one I'm capable of

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>>47897645
>can't think of an actual response so he just starts shitposting

Now you're just embarrassing yourself. You should propably stop at this point.

>>47897706
well, your change doesn't do much for tau who don't charge, and makes eldar better chargers than everyone else.

And the 6+d6 change solves that problem too, it's just a bigger boost to assault armies (who need it), and fair across all armies (rather than punishing orcs).

What's the single most powerful unit in the Space Marine codex? The Land Raider?

>>47897721
or, or, or.
Change the vehicle damage chart. Then you don't need to make all those changes.
Change one part of the rules instead of a dozen.

>>47897714
>and certainly not an argument that it shouldn't be a super heavy walker like all other titans.
It isn't supposed to be. It should definitely be a superheavy walker.
My point was simply that it has very little in common with titans save that both walk on two legs.

>>47897751
Gravbike + SS command squad with Apothecary and Iron Hands tactics. 3+ invuln, 4+ FNP, T5, get kek'd.

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>>47897742
>having a problem with shit posting
>on a Brazilian am dram site
okay, you are a retard for respond to shitty bait, when it was HOURS old, and then getting mad about some random anime reaction pic i pulled from 4chan a week ago, so have another shitpost

>>47897751
are you joking?

And gravcenturians in the base codex, tied with bike command squad, with grav guns.

>>47897776
well, you did do a good job at the same time of pointing out how different titans serve different roles.
So while you did a decent job of showing that the Stormsurge titan isn't like other titans, at the same time you've shown that not all titans are the same, and the Stormsurge is a new class of titan.

>>47897786
>claims not to have shit taste
>posts Umaru
Not even him, but anon, you have absolutely no argument now.

>>47894367
Necron wraiths.

>>47897772
The VC isnt the problem, you still need ap2/1 to pop a tank, and the chart is like 50% minor shit. the main problem is HP, which probably need increasing across the board ( or some other better fix i cant think of at 10 to midnight)

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>>47897786
>umaru

Have you considered suicide?

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>>47897824
>not liking that webm
never watched the anime its from, but you gotta love that dynamic entry

>mfw I remember that some people serious watch anime
>mfw I just riff JoJo with my weeb friends and make fun of them but actually end up liking more of the show than I expected to

>>47897860
Anon, you really really shouldn't post stuff you don't know the orgin of, esspecially if you don't want people thinking you have shit taste.

>>47897902
Fuck man, i tired to watch jojo the other day, after a 4 years anime break. Its so shit. So is everything else i used to watch. guess i am an old man now

>>47897940
Seems like it man

>>47897930
Frankly it dosen't matter either way: people hate good things, people hate bad things, its just who randomly sees your posts

>>47897940
I liked the first season more than the second or third. I like the art design and the shit they did with the colors. When Zeppeli dies, everything turns into an LSD trip and it didnt even draw me out of the immersion.

>>47897831
>increase HP across the board
okay,
But you've still got a 300pt unit that can be removed by a single shot from an incidental weapon. And that effect becomes more pronounced if you up HP.

>>47897786
>>47897846
>>47897824

i just read the wiki article. i dunt geddit. she's like a loli shapshifter? what? this seems dumb

>>47897785
Reclusiam Command Squad with that loadout, bike chaplain with Tempered Helm and some shooty relic unless you're some kind of nerd that uses the FAQ ruling. Get your free Razorback and use it to shield wall for you in between raping people with relentless grav

Centurion Assault Squad in Drop Pods.
Y/N?

>>47897984
depends on the vechle. at 300 points, thats a spartan/LR, which has AV 14, so a marine with a las cannon has what, a 2/3*1/6 to even pen? it gets easier with things like melta, but still. 99% of my vehicle deaths are hull point deaths (double so, when lay ad mech, damn grav bullshit)

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>>47897581
>weeb
>posts anime and knows characters

>>47898029
shit model, shit tactic

>>47898029
naa, cents are only good in grav form

>>47897192
The total chance for a vehicle to be immobilized or exploded by a Meltagun remains 13% and 6%, respectively. That's not an unreasonable number for a dedicated anti-tank weapon. If the problem is that Melta is too common due to its effectiveness against MCs, maybe it should be S2 with 2D6+6 armor penetration.

>>47898164
>melta
>effective against MCs

costanza.jpg

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>>47898164
>lets indirectly buff MCs even more
Tau jew confirmed

>>47898052
Bright lances
>ibf eldar are broken
that's not one of the parts of eldar that's broken.

And it's still a problem at 200pts, or even 150pts, which gets you into a lot more common territory.

I don't think everything about the vehicle damage table is bad. But I do think having very real chances of destroying or permently disabiling (because lets be clear immobilized is enough in many cases) a vehicles of an incidental shot from long range common options is not a positive thing, if vehicles are also supposed to be able to be worn down just like infantry/MCs.

It's a 'strictly worse' problem, and a massive amount amount of swing.
There are a variety of solutions, removing the +1 for AP2, so you cut down a lot on the incidental types of shots, because of how common AP2 is now.
Subtract remaining hull points.
4-5 is stunned, then count up from there as before.

And those are if we want to keep the primary way of removing vehicles to be hull points, and glancing to death.

>>47898164
>1 str 8 shot
>effective vs MC
oh lawd

>>47898164
Mate, it's main use is to kill vehicles and instagib multi-wound infantry.
You want plasma for monsters, not melta.

How do you counter two lords of change and Fate weaver with horrors with heralds? That's like 39 psychic dice

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>>47898215

>>47898052
See: >>47896324
Lascannon has 1 in 50 odds of destroying a Land Raider in one shot. Melta (from under 6" away) and Grav are the only things in the SM arsenal that have a meaningful chance of disabling a Land Raider in one shot.

>>47897706
Librarians can get +5 I from the right power combo
Can Eldar get a psychic power combo to boost them to I9?
Their other melee units will get more than Marines, but I was just pointing out an unintended consequence of that idea (not necessarily a bad one)

>>47898164
>for a vehicle
that seems odd that you are including all forms of vehicles here. I'm pretty sure the pen chance differs quite a bit. And it looks like you're including chances to hit in there, which makes it more interesting.

>effectiveness against MCs.
well, they can't be one shot, unlike vehicles, and so the limited range and limited number of shots makes me think you wrong, as plasma and other options are actually better if you just want to kill MCs.

>>47896324
Many players use methods to augment their to hit chance, what's the number of hits to explode when not factoring in to-hit chances with the melta?

>>47898215
If you are list targetting inquisition can best that. 20 points for two acolytes and 1 psyker as a band, plus 25 for a base inquisitor for every three bands. At 1850 you get 48 psydice a turn.

Is it any good? No. But man would it be annoying.

>>47898188
>>47898189
>>47898207
>>47898214
My point wasn't that Melta is the ideal weapon for killing infantry or MCs. My point was that maybe the reason there's so much Melta out there is because it's a fairly versatile weapon that can hurt anything. Maybe pushing it more toward a dedicated anti-armor role will make it slightly less common.

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30 CSM with Mark of Slaanesh, Icon of Excess and Fabulous enhancements, possibly with a Lord on a Steed of Slaanesh for some outflanking and extra killiness.

Yay or nay?

Alternately, can Typhus turn cultists from other formations into zombies? For instance, respawning cultists?

>>47898255
>for a vehicle
Sorry, I meant Land Raider. Other vehicles are more likely to be disabled, but also significantly more likely to be wrecked from other sources in a round of shooting.

>>47898274
1. the number is 1.
Oh, you mean the expected value. The thing that obscures the point that the problem is single instance swings.

Because whats the chance that one melta shot instant kills a MC? What's the chances one melta shot instant kills a 100pt infantry squad?

The maths really easy in case you are wondering?

>>47898305
there is so much out there because it is good vs tanks, whilst also being available on a vast range if units, from about 5-7 factions

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why the fuck are space marines so popular i seriously don't get it

i'm not even hating if you think that's cool good for you 'cause i don't

>>47898305
No it wouldn't, it would just give Marines more of an excuse to spam grav and make armies without grav (particularly CSM) cry even harder.

And speaking of grav, it's anti-heavy-infantry that also does great against MCs, and is rather excellent anti-armor on the side, if you're going to complain about a given special weapon being too powerful against everything then it should be that. The only thing grav can't kill is hordes, and with grav-amps it can even do that.

>>47898215
Culexus assassins are your friends. You can't start them in allied transports anymore (at least I think that's how the new FAQ works) but you can still have him board a rhino and scoot up into "fuck you and all your dice" range.

>>47898322
>wasteofpoints/10
but you are taking fabulous bill, so its a casual game, do what you want
>>47898344
they are cool brah

>>47898274
Multiply all of the final results by 1.5 to get the chance per hit instead of chance per shot.

>>47898344
because they're a generic template and you get to build your own chapter of Your Dudes based on what you like in an army.

>>47898333
well you're either including chance to hit, or wrong.

Because melta's explode on a 5+=33.33%. and pen AV14 on a 7, and the chance of rolling 7+ on 2d6 is greater than 50%.
So you can only get 6% by including a to hit chance. And now you have a thing that differs by model, and buffing.

I just re-installed Soulstorm.
Time to play some Vance motherhecking Stubbs.

>>47898349
>fixing grav
against vehicles 6s cause crew stunned, no hull point is lost.
Grav amp restricted in availability or removed.
Cost of grav cannons higher on relentless chassis.

>>47898397
Install some mods anon. It really breathed new life into the game for me such that I've played over 500 hours in the Steam version and countless more before DoW hit that platform.

>>47898305
Making it so hyper specialized brings up the 'skyfire problem'.

Skyfire weapons are generally worthless unless the enemy brings flyers or skimmers, if you invest in skyfire and the enemy doesn't bring this these you're at a disadvantage.
So people ask you before each match, "Are you bringing flyers, should I bring skyfire?"

It would just end up being similar to that, "Are you bringing vehicles? Should I bring melta? I don't want to invest in something worthless because that doesn't make for fun games."

>>47898425
did that 30k Taghmata mod ever come out? I stopped following it after the first year of delays.

>>47898338
Is it really that unacceptable for an anti-tank weapon to be good against tanks? If it's only taken to counter tanks, then its occurrence will be directly proportional to the number of tanks that are played. If no one brought vehicles, no one would bring Melta. If Melta was a magic bullet that invalidated vehicles just by having one your list, no one would bring vehicles. It's a regulating mechanic that is working as intended.

>>47898349
Grav is completely fucking broken and a boring mechanic that makes the game less dynamic. It should be removed from the game and maybe replaced by something more focused on killing MCs and less focused on killing everything in the game. Better yet, balance MCs so Plasma can actually handle them as intended.

>>47898387
See: >>47896324

>>47898422
>Melta and grav nerfed in to the ground
So they go back to spamming plasma with their ability to deal with heavy armour stunted.
But what about eldar with all their strength D?
But what about CSMs who are even shitter due to a nerf aimed at their loyal brothers?

You're playing whack-a-mole, each change just brings more imbalances, it's easier to say 40k and it's rules need to be redone as a whole.

>>47898446
Still in development and not about to be released any time soon if ever, although there is a 40k Mechanicus mod floating around that's been lively lately.

>>47898509
Yeah, I looked it up right after I posted. It's a huge shame they didn't at least push to release with the limited list they used to have instead of adding more and more shit without finishing anything. I really wanted to blow shit up with Thanatars.

>>47898355
Can't use them as orks, well I can just gotta make a lot of leery eye rolls

>>47898434
The problem with Skyfire is more that it isn't accessible. If any unit could take a "choose to have Skyfire or not" wargear like Tau can, flyers would be a lot more balanced. Instead, you have to take entire additional units, usually vehicles, to handle flyers.

Plus, S2 AP1 or S5 AP1 would still be more useful against Power Armor and Terminator Armor than Skyfire is against ground targets.

>>47898570
S5 ap1 with a +3 strength bonus vs vehicles sounds more reasonable than wounding guardsmen on 5+.

Still, think of the poor sisters players who will take a massive nerf bat to the face over this.

>>47898570
Actually, I guess S2 would be just as bad. S5 AP1 12" Melta(2d6+3) would be a weapon that's dedicated anti-vehicle without being useless against infantry.

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>>47898570
>S2 or S5
This kills the SoB. They would have LITERALLY no method of dealing with MCs or even fucking terminators outside of the already-spammed Exorcist.

>Dominions, Penitent Engine, Repentia
Expensive, close combat, shit and also close combat with no in-codex assault transport

>>47898620
SoB are already broken and in desperate need to be fixed. This would break them a bit more, but I'd prefer to see both vehicles and SoB fixed instead of neither.

>>47898638
>this change would break this faction notorious for not getting updated
>but that's ok because an update would fix them

>>47898656
>It doesn't matter because GW isn't going to fix either
>But we can still talk about ways to fix both

>>47898677
Then how exactly would you fix SoB in a fluffy way after nerfing melta to an even more niche role than it already is?

>>47898602
>>47898620
>>47898656
Also, robots should be Walkers rather than MCs, which means MCs would be much less common and less of a problem for Sisters. Also, the MCs that are left should be rebalanced, which will probably involve a substantial reduction in Wounds. Tyranids will be hurt, but Tyranids are already trash and in desperate need of an update as well.

>>47898503
>back to spamming plasma.
grav is still better at taking down 2+ and 3+ saves due to number of shots. So it means that it's a specialist weapon, where plasma is more generalist, and has gets hot as a downside.

This was the intent.
>stunted against heavy armor
If you meant AV, being able to deal with everything was the problem. Plasma is also pretty bad against high AV. Now they need to take dedicated anti-tank if they want to be able to deal with heavy tanks.

>Eldar D
back to old distort rules. Which, to be clear, most long term eldar players who liked the fluff want this to be true.
Wraithknight can keep D for it's guns if it goes up to the proper point cost for a superheavy with strength D guns.

>CSM
not made worse by the changes to grav.

>You're playing whack-a-mole, each change just brings more imbalances,
except for that not being true.
Reducing the ability of grav to be great against everything doesn't somehow make CSM worse.
Upping the cost of Wraithknights doesn't unbalance the rest of the game.

I actually disagree with the statement that all the rules need to be redone.
There are sections of the BRB that should be changed, mainly assault range being to random, and vehicle damage rules.

But most of the codexs, particularly the over powered ones, are best fixed by spot fixing the problem units.
Fixing the 4 biggest problem units in the eldar codex improves the balance of the game.

Same with weapons and psykic powers. The big issue is a few problem stops, fix those and balance improves.

How can I maximise my chances of funning with Space Marines?

>>47898570
>>47898602
>>47898620
>meltas being an okay option at dealing with MCs is a massive problem.
lets go with no. They are worse at that than Plasma and other options, to trade off for being better at killing heavy vehicles.

This is an example of creating new problems by trying to fix a problem. Except this isn't actually a big problem, so it's more like creating a problem for no good reason.

>>47898701
Giving them an Assault Transport and fixing Assault would help quite a bit (and help out Orks, Nids, CSM, etc). Also, Penitent Engine should be Agile (runs twice) and in Fast Attack. Seraphim should have a special rule that makes their Invulnerable save a 5+. Immolators should have a choice between TL Autocannon, TL Multi-Melta, and Flamestorm Cannon. Exorcists should have D3+1 shots with Armorbane from 24-30". Celestians should do something useful. Also, >>47898744 will help.