Why are dwarfs always the same?

Because Tolkien established a collection of tropes people zealously follow.

>>47722594
This.

How would you change up dwarves, OP?

>>47722594
But orcs and elves have changed a lot.

>>47722585
Because they don't need fixin, you bloody wanker.

>>47722585
Bitches love dorfs.

>>47722585
Because they have no potential or appeal. Unlike elves.

>>47722594
Tolkien wrote them more as short jews. Pop culture has them as short alcoholic vikings.

Because if its aint short, stubby and bearded its a halfling or a manlet

>>47722650
As have dwarves. They're much taller than they used to be, and much wider and stronger-looking as well.

>>47722709
Those are just minor physiognomic differences. They still dig, are greedy, live underground and forge things.

>>47722629
>>47722745
Not OP, but if you want change... Make them insectoid.
Ants are quite dwarfy: dig holes, build, dig more holes, drink mead. I don't see why they wouldn't craft and mine if they were sentient. Dorfs in pop culture tend to stick to their clans - antmen stick to their hives.
I guess we should keep the beard. Beard will be... a traditional ornament, that can tell social status, achievements, which clan this "dwarf" is from, etc.

>>47722745
And orcs still raid, are ugly, and no one likes them, while elves are pretty, long-lived, and like forests.

Dwarves have changed subtly, but they have been changing, with some of their features diminishing (their shortness is understated now) while others are more pronounced (the beard business has almost gotten out of hand).

>>47722774
Orcs are often misunderstood noble warriors now and the physical difference is more extreme. From the weak goblins to huge mountains of muscles. Elves lost a lot of their connection and closeness to the divine and often fall into the distinctive high-, wood- and dark-elf subraces, which are never so extreme with Tolkiens elves.

Dwarfs are just a bit less obvious jewish and sometimes better at technologies. They are basically the same in every other regard.

>>47722585
Same reason why dwarves do anything.

TRADITION!

>>47722840
>sometimes better at technologies.

You mean full-blown steampunk and guns?

There's also "evil dwarves" like the duergar, and Faerun has a number of distinct dwarf subraces. Beyond that, dwarves went from originally being distinctly magical in the original Norse, to hating magic and basically being anti-magic, to now being a bit more relaxed but still being against most forms of magic.

Dwarves have changed. Perhaps not as much as Orcs and Elves in some media, but it would still be quite a scene to see a "modern" dwarf appear in Middle Earth.

>>47722770
Ants with beards.
Well alright then.

>>47722901
>Perhaps not as much as Orcs and Elves in some media
I can live with that.

>>47722745
Well,I think is quite hard to find another cultural niche in which dwarves can fit. The mining,forging and warring stuff has extended to engineering and rune magic in fantasy settings, and into electronics and general techonology in cyberpunk and futuristic. I think it's their association with earth and tunneling what makes it hard to radically change them.

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>>47722585
Why paladins are always the same?

Why are neckbeards always the same?

>>47722901
Original Norse sources don't distinguish between dwarves and svartalfar, and them being short seems to have been a later folkloric addition.

Also, they pull double duty as the settings elves and dwarves depending on caste, but I actually like Mountain Folk from Exalted as a way of doing the classic fantasy races in a recognizable but new way. Magitech stone people who live underground and fight the endless hordes of things that have been banished from the light of day while worshipping their absent Primordial artificer/machine god.

>>47722629
Go the dwarf fortress route and make them more prone to random violence and workplace accidents than ever thought possible for such a stout race of builders

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>>47722770
>>47724560
>>47722629
I like dwarves like these

>>47724676
>blocky fists
>thick ankless
>copious body hair

If only shoulders and waist weren't that thin

>>47722629
Two main ways Dwarves can be changed.
First way is simple: make them gnomes. Focus more on their tinkering and creation of odd contraptions rather than their smithing, drinking, and axe-weilding. Do not establish dwarves as tough, stout humanoids, but rather small and weedy; they avoid and are bad at melee combat.

Second way is to focus almost entirely on terrestrial dwarves. Push the angle of traveling caravans of dwarves trading between the various dwarf fortresses and/or human lands. Go back to Tolkien's original inspiration and make them like traveling Jews, peddling their wares in foreign lands and struggling to survive in unfriendly human kingdoms.

I think you mean why are dwarves always the same since Tolkien, just like the first reply said, Tolkien established a set of tropes that people follow, but before that they were different, just look up mythological dwarves.

Because most dwarves are caricatures of Gygax's dwarves, who were caricatures of Gimli. We basically have a race extrapolated from one individual who's traits have been writ large over time. They all seem like the same person because they essentially are

>>47722770
And they are no longer dwarves.

>>47724967
Who decides what is and isn't a dwarf? Or an elf? As far as I'm concerned, so long as they hit some of the main points of dwarfness, they're dwarves

>>47722585
Because if they weren't, they wouldn't be dwarves.

I feel like too few people actually make their own races, and the ones who do tend to make shit ones.

>>47722770
>copy conquest of Elysium
Okay then

>>47724676
That's not a dwarf that's a beastman of some fashion

>>47722673
You knew non-alcoholic vikings?

>>47724989
If I take wood ants and call them dwarves I can talk like this "Did you know that Dwarves can carry up to 200times their body weight"

Now nobody will fucking know what I'm talking about. Because that's not how language works you dumbshit.

>>47724994
A lot of people don't make their own races because some people (especially here on /tg/) whinge and complain if anyone has anything original in their setting, and try their damndest to convince people that no one is interested in their dumb special snowflake bullshit, and to just use the cliche races/classes/cultures

>>47725041
Its a made up race , you dip. Use your imagination

>>47725041
I think you're taking the idea of "like ants" further than the poster meant it to be taken.

>>47725057
My dwarves are purple three-headed fungoid centaurs that stand 300 feet tall and worship fire. They also can't drink because they have no mouths and can't grow body hair because they are fungus.

See, there's a reason someone uses the word 'dwarf', and it's to give people an immediate understanding of a recognized race without having to explain as much. Deviating too far from the norm invalidates giving them the recognizable name and you may as well call them something else.

>>47725101
Pretty sure as long as they're short creatures fond of drink and industry, and follow a few other key things like tending towards beards and underground homes and not being bubbly fucking gnome/kender shits, you can do backdrop details like social structure however the fuck you like.

>>47722594
>a collection of tropes
>Tolkien Dwarves use magic, swords, spears, bows, some don't even have beards

>>47725129
It's no wonder people complain they can't find games to play/run when someone can seriously argue that a race of ant-people should be called dwarves.

Are all the wheels in your setting not actual wheels but icosahedrons instead?

>>47725365
Play Conquest of Elysium. That has ant-dwarves and they're plenty dwarfy.

>>47725101
See, now you're just being obtuse. What people are saying is that so long as you keep the major dwarven tropes/feel, you can change things up quite a bit. For instance, tall but squat looking fungal centaurs with bushy sensitive mycelium on their 'faces' and a knack for making powerful fungal intoxicants would probably work

>>47725365
See again
>>47725083

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>>47722585
>Why are dwarfs always the same?

They're not. Japan turned female dwarves into lolis instead of thick women with beards.

>>47725397
>Make them insectoid.
>Ants are quite dwarfy:

Sorry but Insectoid dwarves can no longer be recognized by people as dwarves, give them a different name and bring up the similarites between your "super original homebrew race" and dwarves.

If you don't like classic fantasy there's no reason you have to play in it, but making up things that are vastly different in almost all regards from its base materials and pretending that it can be called and understood as the same thing is completely inane, and just shows how desperate a hipster is to be original.

We can make SKY DWARVES. They cultivate rain water and have big wings. They're also best friends with all the races and are not prone to violence.

That a big enough change for ya?

>>47725410
Another reason to bomb it again.

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>>47722629

Space ships.

>>47725505
So Squats?

>>47722585
Reminds me of an exchange in the Inheritance Cycle. So strange that scenes from such a forgettable series keeps cropping up in my memory.

The conversation went (roughly) as such:
Protagonist: Wait, you Dwarves have cities ABOVE ground?
Dwarf: Uh...yea? Why wouldn't we want to live in the sun? We gotta get our food, trade, and vitamin D somewhere!
Protagonist: I just assumed you were an entire race of mole-people.
Dwarf: No, that would be incredibly claustrophobic. Now stop being racist so we can go back to drinking shittons of bear and obsessing over our traditions and honor.

>>47725459
Yes. Lamassu-dwarves who live on mountaintops and craft weather. They're well liked due to the usefulness of their craft, and prefer to concentrate on religion and crafts over martial skill

>>47722585
There's almost nothing else to add to them. At their core, they are craftsmen and have always been described as squat and 'ugly' although we all know that most-all of /tg/ instantly gets erect when they gaze upon a stoic dwarven visage, from mythology and folklore to Tolkien's glorious birthing of modern fantasy.

The form they have assumed now is just the pinnacle of their development next to other fantasy races: They have a very clear-cut role that they fulfill that doesn't intrude into other territories, while leaving them with the potential of individual characters when handled by a competent writer.

In a sense, they have become the perfect fantasy trope that doesn't need reinvention, anymore, because they've become everything they need to be. Whatever difference there exists in various settings is just subtle variations of emphasis on all the things that make up dwarves.

>>47725020
>Man
I see somebody is new to the fetish.

Don't worry young'un, you'll learn.

I would definitely play that race in a game.

>>47725410

Is there anything Japan hasn't cutiefied into oblivion?

>>47725721
Truly they are ahead of us in every aspect of life.

>>47725721
Cockroaches.
Eldritch Horrors.
Goblins.
Car parts.
Battleships.

>>47722585
The same reason all human campaigns will always have better character interaction and development than a hodge podge of midgets and animal people.

>>47725829
Only because of autists who insist on substituting race for personality, if which fittingly dwarffags are the most guilty. 9/10 times when someone wants to play a dwarf, what they mean is that they want to be Gimli 2, and base all possible actions on what would stereotyped gimli do

>>47725829
I like this post.

You see it seems at the first glance to be yet another HFY shitpost, but then you realise that what he's actualy saying, is that "they aren't" becasue just like how "all human games" are almost universally shity exercises in masterbaiting to "muh realism", dwarves do indeed have their subtle differences from setting to setting.

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>>47725800
>Cockroaches

>>47725800
Eldritch Horros

>>47725800
>battleships
Anon...

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>>47725800

Battleships and eldritch horrors they already have. I just found about the cockroaches. As for car parts...

I guess they prefer their orcs porcine and ugly for the most part, but I've seen a few cute orkoid girls.

>>47724177
Because only autists and /pol/fags play them

>>47722890
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWSoYCetG6A

>>47726319

My American of African descent, please.

>>47725410
Is this an actual thing or are you just trying to rustle our jimmies,anon?

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>>47722585
Are they?

>>47722585
They're not always the same, just because they're all short and usually bearded doesn't mean they always act the same. Many settings have subtle differences in their Dwarfs.

>>47725356
You know how people sometimes complain about modern geeks not bothering to actually read the fucking source material?
That's not a modern thing; that's always been true. So, the tropes we think of as 'tropes established by Tolkien' (or Howard or whoever) were actually, much of the time, cargo cult-ed together by people who never did the reading.
Through geek history, geeks talk out of their ass about 75% of the time.

>>47725800
>goblins
https://youtu.be/Tc8iu0XFUQc

>>47726237
And for the whole shebang:

http://en.rocketnews24.com/2016/01/19/toyota-goes-full-otaku-makes-40-kawaii-mascots-for-every-part-of-the-car/

>>47725531
No! Don't mention squ

>>47722840
The thing about orcs is that they're almost always a stand-in for humans that the author doesn't like.

While tolkein's orcs physically resembled debased caricatures of Mongols, culturally they were compared to post-industrialization Europe ("we were all orcs in the Great War") in that they were callous, honourless despoilers of the natural world with minds fixated on machines and industry, to the point that they could forge better steel than any of the humans save the men of gondor.

tolkein was unique in his dislike of industrialized people, but his notion of "orcs as a stand-in for my least favourite race" persisted when other authors would start using the creature.

It's just that most of them have no beef with industry, and instead their least favourite human is THE SAVAGE DARK RACES, and so all of a sudden you have orcs who far surpass humans in physical strength, are of a nearly bestial intelligence, are "closer to nature" or shamanistic, never surrender or run from battle, wear animal skins and loinclothes, and have a conspicuous desire to purloin and breed with human women.

>>47724989
You can call your stupid ants "dwarves" if you want of course, it's just that everyone will think you're retarded and trying too hard to be unique.

>>47727191
The same as people will think you're an autistic, joyless faggot if you insist on jamming the cliche gimli clones into every setting

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>all of this dwarf hate

>Implying dwarfs need to change.

Dwarfs are perfect as they are , they don't need to be insectoid, fungal or fucking anime lolis.

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One question i always find myself asking:

What do dwarves eat?
Mountains are usually terrible for agriculture, and there's nothing to eat underground.
Until very recently in human history, most of the human population had to be dedicated to agriculture to allow us to survive. Yet i have never seen a dwarf farmer.

>>47727238
>if you insist on jamming the cliche gimli clones into every setting
I don't though, me criticizing your dumb idea doesn't automatically put me on the far opposite end of the spectrum.

>>47727348
Well one obvious possibility is that not all of Dwarven civilisation lies underground, and that they have several agricultural institutions nestled in valleys. It's the perfect spot where "feral" Dwarves come from that are more influenced by pictish Highlanders than subterranean jews. Considering that dwarves are often depicted as having a great beer culture, they simply must have some sort of access to wheats.

The other possibility is that dwarves have a maingly fungal diet, where they have whole chasms dedicated to cultivating an edible mushroom colony, and that they hunt mountaingoats for supplements, or they eat subterranean bugs.

>>47722594
>>47722594
>Because Tolkien

You mean Gygax.

>>47722770
>>47724989
>DUDE WHAT IF DWARVES WERE BUGS SO ORIGINAL

You're just as bad as the people who want all Dwarves everywhere to be drunken, axe-wielding Scotsmen.

>>47727245
Its not so much hate of dwarves (at least for me) as it is a hate for how narrow the stereotype is. Fantasy dwarves have a very rigid archetype in most people's minds, and that makes them kind of hard to build around. It also makes for lazy role playing, because a lot of people just Falk back to the stereotype and won't change it up at all

>>47727348
I kind of solved that by rolling dwarves, gnomes, and halflings together. They're really good farmers, so the land on and around their mountains gets turned into farmland and shit. They have a knack for the land and things that grow in it, plus really rugged plants and underground irrigation, so the shitty, rocky land no one else wants becomes their parks, farms, and gardens

>>47727348
>there's nothing to eat underground.
>fungi, worms, burrowing mammals, and weird fantasy shit don't exist

>>47727348

cave moss, mushrooms, tunnel rodents, goat cheese, and whatever they can grow without too much effort like cabbages, turnips , and peas.

Everything else would get imported through trade like wheat and red meat,since the whole purpose of building a mining city underground would be to extract it's mineral wealth.

>>47725044
It's double contrarianism. The truth of the matter is there is nothing wrong with dwarves and elves, but having them in every setting is a bit silly.

My interpretation was that they do some light farming - mushrooms,animal rearing, etc. Hills and low mountains offer some opportunity for pastures, and dwarves were never supposed to be all that numerous.

However, they do import various foodstuffs, and most citadels have surface outposts or vassal settlements. These settlements needn't even be dwarven - a large fortress means security, and a city with master artisans means a market, so humans, halflings or the like have an innate incentive to settle nearby.

>>47727348
Plump Helmets, for sure

>>47727172
>its a cuck complex! thats all orcs are!

Scoped this meme but didn't care for it, subtle though.

>>47727348
Plump helmets.

>>47722666
satan trying again to deceive us

>>47724737
>>copious body hair
Now I wonder, is underground hot or cold?
As far I know about mines, underground is pretty damn hot, fur would be troublesome.

>>47729385
The more rich and well off Dwarves, such as urban artisans and nobles, can live in the cooler caverns where their cities are bit.

Lower class dwarves such as miners must shave themselves to safely work in the mines, and as such their nakedness is an extremely visible status symbol.

>>47727172
>to the point that they could forge better steel than any of the humans save the men of gondor.
Were men of Gondor some sort of Mary Sues or something?

>>47727796
>>47727834
Mah dorfs!

>>47729468
Quite neat idea.

>>47729385
Ever been in a natural cave? They tend to settle to the year-round average of the area they are in. You have to go really far under the surface for the temperature to start rising due to internal heat from the planet.

>>47722585
Most people have shitty imagination.

>>47727348
/aco/ and /d/ get shortstack threads and yet there are so few good images of dwarven women that don't try to change their traditional physiology. Give me short, wide, strong bitches that aren't fat.

>>47727348
>there's nothing to eat underground.
What about all those fucked up monsters that inevitably infest every underground structure and cave system? And/or whatever it is those things are eating, besides dwarves, obviously.

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>>47727348
>Yet i have never seen a dwarf farmer.

>>47726702
>tfw that is true
It's sad anon.

>>47722594
>>47722629
>I have never read Tolkien

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>>47722585
Why are human dwarfs so great?

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>>47722585
Because if they're ever different, people say 'That's not a dwarf!'

>>47731667
is that boy or a girl?

>>47725356
Tolkien also has a dwarven people who are heavily implied to be exiles from the other dwarven kingdoms in the East, the ones that are never seen in the books. They feed mostly feed on roots that turn bread-like when boiled, have forgotten most of their smithcraft, are even smaller than normal dwarves and have become good at sneaking. They're also all borderline sociopathic and hate elves because they hunted them thinking they were animals, and built their kingdoms over what used to be their homes

>>47731679
If they're cute, does it matter?

>>47731777
Didn't know that. Is there a good Tolkien wiki to browse? I don't want to touch his actual writings.

>>47731667
>if they are too different people will say they're not dwarves
Ftfy

>>47722585
I miss the golden days of Dragon Magazine. Back when D&D was king.

>>47731777
Ah, "Petty Dwarves".

Yet their grievances are anything but.

>>47731996
See
>>47732223
Sorry I was eating a sandwich

>>47722585
Because they're comic relief, and comedy is harder than the rest.

>>47732187
>Back when D&D was king.

Being Emperor for the last decade or so might have made D&D a bit fat, but it's still got the same strength in its arms.

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>>47731777
>>47732223
Wait so were the petty dwarves basically the jews of the dwarves kingdoms that were exiled?

>>47732318
It's not made clear why they were exiled but if the demeanor of the only one who comes to focus is any indication (on Children of Hurin), it's possible they were just kicked out for being massive assholes

Wait now I'm confused. I thought the dwarves were descendants of the 7 dwarf lords that were created by a god. So are all the dwarves we see in the lord of the rings just one of the dwarf families? Does Tolkein contain conflicting stuff?

>>47732396
People tend to forget middle earth is just a tiny bit of Tolkien's world overall. The West is just what is on focus most of the time, but most dwarves and men live on the East. Heck, in the case of Men it's literally just the descendants of 3 tribes that didn't immediately distrust the Elves and went back into the East

>>47732082
But for many people, 'too' means 'any'.

>>47722666
ELF SATAN GET OUT.

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>>47727172

>implying orcs arent usually just a mishmash of european/asian barbarians

>>47732460
To elaborate a bit more, the Men in Middle-Earth descend from the Edain, the 3 Houses of Elf-friends that first met the elves and remained loyal to them thorough their early history. They were protected by the Elves before they became numerous enough to look after themselves, and later provided aid in the Wars of Beleriand

At the fifth battle of the Wars of Beleriand (which is remembered as the "Battle of Unnumbered Tears" so go figure) which even the Easterlings participated on, a bunch of Easterlings decided to be assholes and betrayed everyone else under the promise of being given some lands in Beleriand as a reward by Morgoth.

Of course, Satan was lying and the Easterlings didn't get shit, but thanks to that one fuck up Elves collectively decided they would trust no Men other than the Edain again. So the Edain were taught almost everything they knew by the Elves, while the Easterlings developed a long and proud history of being buttfucked by the Dark Lord due to having no anti-bully elves around. They were also far more primitive, and seemingly grew accustomed to having orcs around with time

>>47732634
>born from mud

they are based off a different group of people anon. a certain group rich in melanin

>>47732800

rofl, no

everything about them is germanic and celtic barbarian/mongol/hun

>>47727480
>Gygax
He just copied Tolkien who mashed together Norse and German tradition.

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>>47727092
>>47725531
>>47725505

>>47726561
Those are Kender.

>>47732953
Were there ever imperial guard ratmen units? That just seems silly.

>>47722585

Because you don't mess with perfection.

The biggest problems with both Dorfs and Elves in most settings is that they generally drop a preset conception of the Elf or Dorf from popular culture into a setting without actually making a particularly compelling reason why they would exist in the setting other than to increase PC diversity.

As a result they often seem like they are bolted onto a setting and in a real sense they are bolted on to the setting.

But a compelling setting with dorfs or elves is going to actually present a compelling case for having diversity of PC races through developing compelling economic, social, ecological, perhaps theological, etc niches rather than herp derp dorfs live in mountains love gold and ale and like to fuck anvils.

When designing a compelling setting the GM or the writer should really ask themselves what problem does a new race solve that couldn't just be handled by a human group.

If 90% of the reason you have dorfs in your setting is based upon fantasy cliches then really what are you really trying to do with your setting?

Not that cliches can't be fun to explore but the reality is most writers and GMs don't do a very good job of deconstructing cliches and tropes so their settings just seem bland and cookie-cutter.

>>47732985
Ratlings? They still exist in some capacity as space Hobbit snipers.
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-NZ/Imperial-Guard-Ratlings

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does anyone have some cool pictures of dwarfs?

>>47733040
Did they use to be more prominent?

>>47733088
They used to be a pretty regular part of Guard games. But I just checked GW's site and they're not there and what was Imperial Guard is now listed as "Astra Militarum."
At least on the US site. Google got me to that link, which it part of the New Zealand site so who knows what the fuck is up with GW and 40K these days. I haven't really payed any attention in the past 6 years.

>>47722594
/thread

WHAT CAN I DO FER YE TADAY?
KEEP YER FEET ON THA GROUND
BE SEEIN' YE
AYE

like someone asked, is there a good tolkien wiki somewhere that focuses on his original writing, and doesn't get bogged down in the movie crap?

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>>47725800

>eldritch horrors

>>47733223
Tolkien Gateway is usually well-sourced
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Main_Page

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>>47722585
>tfw Dwarves were so diverse even in The Hobbit

>>47727348
Look up ancient Greek farming practices. It can be done in rocky mountain terrain just a real pain in the ass and a lot of work. Would actually fit dwarven style quite well.

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>why are elf/dwarf/orc/your favorite system/your waifu whining threads always the same?

>As Dwarves age their body turns to stone, starting at the heart and gradually working its way out.
>The amazing statues leading to their mountain hideaways are their ancestors returned to the mountain that birthed them.
>The famous Dwarven consitution is literally the stone hidden inside of them.

Is this in any known setting? I like to think it's somewhat unique, if not, I'll think of something else.

>>47737155
Yeah. Tolkien.

>>47737155
>>47737182
And Dragon Age, at least in the dwarf's beliefs.

>>47731451
>human poo as fertilizer
That is no good.

>>47737182
>>47737190

So it is, yeah. Didn't know that. How's about the real reason Dwarfs covert gemstones and glittering things so deeply is that they require them for nourishment, that being the only thing that can stave of the coming of the stone.

The main cause of death for Dwarves is euthanasia, with many having lived several centuries and gradually longing for the Stone they have been apart from so long, they loose interest in gold and gemstones, some go adventuring to die at the hands of a great beast while others remain locked away in their halls to await the Stones coming.

>>47726319
The rouge who later backstabbed my party said something like that.(He was killed by our paladin)

>>47737155
>As Dwarves age their body turns to stone

Warhammer Fantasy chaos dwarfs

>>47737197
I'd wager he meant whole humans.

Because if your dwarfs don't act like dwarves their is no point in calling them dwarves.

>>47737229
The real reason dwarves love gold so much is because of the cultural group their mythological origin was melded with, and that being something that stuck.

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>>47726541
Queen's Blade is a good thing.

>>47722629
Why change dwarves? I like them as they are.

>>47732800
Even if that were true, I honestly don't think enough people bother to research what African cultures are like, especially if they're a culture they don't like. So they take Celts or Mongols or something and call the druids or the Lamaist priests 'shamans,' because shaman sounds more African-y but not as obvious as witch doctor. So it's splashing some brown paint on European cultures, and not even well.

>>47726170
sa... sauce...?

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>>47722629
Make them adorable.

>>47724769
>make them gnomes
So steal from Dragonlance instead of Lord of the Rings?

>>47729510
Yes

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>>47722629

Make dwarves terrestrial, living in mountanous/forrested areas, in thight-knit communities.

Change their aesthetic style to the popular image of post-sengoku jidai feudal Japan. Dwarves lawful nature fits well with the structured, even somewhat repressed society of the region in that period.

Traditional dwarven forgemasters become craftsmen who devote thier lives to their particular craft. The best become Masamune/Hattori Hanzo style legendary swordsmiths.

Fighters are changed to samurai, etc.

Not a huge functional change, but it's a fresh look for a race that ALWAYS looks and behaves exactly the same.

>>47739317
no....please no.

All I can see is Gimli talking in a horrible Japanese accent.


Here's a fresh idea: Dwarves are always made to talk like Scottish people. But their style is always more viking/norse/etc. How about make them actually more scottish? Like, using large two handed swords, or baskethilt swords with targes, organized in clans and shit, lots of farmers. Kilts, of course.

I mean, it wouldn't be much of a departure from the current stereotype, but at least it would be consistent. I've never liked how stunty vikings talk like Scotsmen.

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I wonder if Space Marines are somewhat Dwarfish. They're taller but I noticed some of their characteristics like having usually better technology, longer life-span than humans & especially alcohol tolerance is alike a Dwarf, though they have many differences. When I think of a Space Wolf chugging down, I occasionally thing of Dwarfs. Their Power Armor was advanced fighting the Squats anyway. I miss the Squats.

>>47737812
>sauce

It's Gokicha; it's a manga about a cockroach who moves to Hokkaido, where there aren't any cockroaches to try and be friends with humans.

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>>47733076
Dump incoming

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>>47727348
Helm plump

>>47740648
You are everything wrong with 40k fans.

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>>47725800
>Battleships.

I hate to break it to you anon, but even warships aren't safe any more.

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>>47741324
>talking shit about Squat fans
Into the Book it goes.

>>47741594
I really don't enjoy the squats, and think the demiurg were a much more original and interesting idea.

The squats were abhumans, which took away the ancient race bit that usually makes them special compared to humans, and they otherwise didn't really have much to them beyond stereotypical dwarfiness and bike gangs, neither of which really was all that charming in 40k with the wind taken out of their sails.

The demiurg are a nomadic race in huge ships, which is already an interesting change but somewhat familiar - big ships aren't a far cry from mountainous holds - and they have a more definite mining and inventing theme to them. And they're xenos, so who knows how long they've been around. They've also got some cool tech to them, which is more than the squats can say - thudd guns aren't particularly impressive.

>>47725410
>Japan turned x into lolis

what a surprise

>>47742856
>which took away the ancient race bit
Dark Age technology is all you need. No need for any ancient race.
>didn't really have much to them beyond stereotypical dwarfiness and bike gangs
Considering how quickly they were removed, they didn't get a chance to get anything more. There was a time where people thought Necrons were Chaos robots.
>nomadic race in huge ships
You mean the Craftsworld Eldar?
>cool tech
>Tau
>which is more than the squats can say - thudd guns aren't particularly impressive
>Dark Ages technology

>>47725356
>some don't even have beards
[citation needed]

>>47742961
Some tear their beards in mourning or find themselves shaven by their enemies. "No Man of Elf has ever seen a beardless Dwarf -unless he were shaven in mockery, and would then be more like to die of shame than of many other hurts that would to us seem more deadly."

>>47725449
B-but they aren't vastly different. I tried to keep all the tropes in my post to the point of making it a reskin

>>47737182
Where'd you get that from?

>>47743295
I don't know precisely where he got that impression of them turning to stone as they age, but he's close to the mark on the rest. Dwarves live underground because Aule created them on underground caves and their stubbornness and stamina are part of their deliberate stone motif

>>47743434
The creation of dwarves in the Silmarillion is actually pretty cute. Aule didn't want to wait any more for the Children of Iluvatar to come, since he wanted someone he could teach his crafts to. So he hid from all the other Valar to carve the 7 fathers of the Dwarves from stone.

Then just as he was going to teach the Dwarves (which at that point were glorified action figures who could only act responding to Aule's will) the language he made for them, Eru showed up and asked Aule why he had tried to make sentient beings when he knew that was beyond his power and authority. So Aule apologized to Eru, started crying, and was about to destroy the Dwarves with a hammer when Eru took pity on him and gave them souls, so that they recoiled before Aule could hit them. So Eru told Aule he'd wake them up at some point after the Elves came.

But due to the whole thing being kept secret from everyone else, including Aule's wife who's essentially the goddess of nature, Dwarves were destined to care very little for nature. Then Aule told Yavanna that the Children of Iluvatar would also need to get sustenance from her creations, which she apparently didn't know until he told her. So she went ask the Manwe (the king of the Valar and also the wind god) if it was true. Yavanna told Manwe about Ents, which unlike Dwarves was actually on the Music of the Ainur, but on a part that only she saw. So Eru showed Manwe the Music again to confirm it, and Ents were created so that they would protect plants in Yavanna's behalf

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I prefer them as "neandertals taken to an evolutionary extreme".

Yeah, they live in caves and have hidden temples in extremely isolated cave systems. They hunt megafauna in the form of huge woolly giants and compete with saber-toothed goblins. At the end of the day, they return home to their kids and tell tales around the fire pit.

When it comes time to wage war against the encroaching lava elves and their orc steeds, the dwarf chiefs and their subchiefs amass war bands armed with spears, javelins, slings, and maces. Every spring is War Season, as the woolly giants come around.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUamYxDhog0

>>47729385
working on a mine "near" hot magma with a sticky bulky body you would shafe a whole lot if you didn't have hair. it acts as a lubricant as it provides a barrier in between the skin and accumulates the natural body oils of sweaty mining dworfs. do you even biology?

dwarves are stubborn and adverse to change so are the players that play them.
I'll never understand why everyone wants everything to be great at everything.

Yay you rolled a dwarf pirate, a dwarf ninja you say? a dwarf wizard? cool, you can be anything and you literally choose to be salty.

I love me some dwarves and I love to romance dwarve wimin.
my next character will be a dwarf barbarian, maybe a bard.

>>47742928
But being an ancient race is part of how the dwarves are defined to be different from humans in most fantasy. They've got a long-standing civilization while the humans are still piddling along. Turning them into an offshoot of humanity's ancient empire takes away from that.

There's a big ol' letter online somewhere where someone important to 40k talks about how they had difficulty thinking of anything good for squats, and feel they didn't give any dignity to dwarves with their in-space versions.

Yes, they're kind of like Craftworld Eldar in that sense, but it also explains how they haven't been, so to speak, squatted by sitting on some world that the Imperium by all rights should have marched over. A lot of the larger minor xenos races are mostly nomadic. And on top of that, it's different for dwarves, so it shows they're keeping it close but not playing exactly to the stereotypes.

Yeah, cool tech that's not just 'ancient human stuff' or 'ancient Eldar stuff.' It's a nice change. Their tech is mostly remadefrom /repurposed mining gear, and they have automated ships, survey glasses that can detect minerals two kilometers deep, and they made the Ion Cannon. It's different from the vague waving of hands and ancient technology - we can get a sense of why they developed things as they did, and what it was before it was repurposed.

I just feel like the Demiurg have more flavor to them than not!dwarves, and can properly stand on their own two feet and work well in 40k.

>>47745114
>They've got a long-standing civilization while the humans are still piddling along
The Squats were remnants of an age with superior technology than the Imperium. If anything I think they work. They're a reminder of humanity's past & former glory better than they are now.
>they had difficulty thinking of anything good for squats, and feel they didn't give any dignity to dwarves with their in-space versions
I don't get GW, there's plenty to work with. They're an abhuman strain who stalled the Great Crusade back in 30k. That alone makes me wonder if the Tau are even on their level.
>sitting on some world that the Imperium by all rights should have marched over
That's the thing, the Imperium allied with them because they realized that it's harder to defeat them than they thought & that the Squats provided plenty of benefits. Heck, the Imperium's alright with Xenos even, assuming they're non-hostile, preferably non-sentient, & willing to work for humanity.
>that's not just 'ancient human stuff' or 'ancient Eldar stuff.'
I'm starting to question if the Eldar had a role in making the Tau. Either way, the Squats have similar things. The Squats evolved to be the way they are due to the higher gravity & atmospheres of their homeworlds. They were forced to grow their food with their technology & adapt to their harsher environments. Ironically, they may be the ideal Imperial Citizen if they weren't abhumans. They hate Xenos, work hard, are physically stronger than the average joe, etc.
>can properly stand on their own two feet and work well in 40k
They're currently nothing but some of the many races in the Tau empire. They depend on the Tau too much to stand on their own. If they get anything, it's likely a Tau supplement.

>>47745394
You could argue the same with the Imperium. Besides, I don't think the Squats were ever portrayed as particularly more advanced than the Imperials - the setting has just stagnated a bit. Back when they were first around, humans would've been in jetbikes half the time and fighting alongside Legio Cybernetica robots.

GW had a point in that almost any changes they made would make them not dwarves, while 40k as a setting required some changes that would make them not dwarfy. Seriously, biker dwarves. It's a joke, not something with dignity.

That was in the older lore. Now, the Imperium is full of xenophobia towards even very peaceful races. There may be some odd exceptions, but not rolling the Squats into the Imperium or conquering them is strange. The Imperium is not the kind to make an alliance as of 40k today.

I don't see how that point has any merit on what I was talking about. I was talking about how their tech was unique from human or Eldar tech, and you can clearly see what it was reverse engineered from and get a sense of how they focus primarily on mining over fighting through it. The Squats just had human tech and made it work for a new size.

The Demiurg are their own independent race, as far as we know. They might be an ally of the Tau, but they have their own fleets and do their own thing. They even allied with the Imperium temporarily against a greater Xenos threat, though they were destroyed afterwards.

>>47746835
>I don't think the Squats were ever portrayed as particularly more advanced than the Imperials
They had more STCs than most. They're more Dark Age than Imperial.
>Seriously, biker dwarves. It's a joke, not something with dignity.
I'd say similar about some of 40k's early shit. They could have changed it in later works.
>but not rolling the Squats into the Imperium or conquering them is strange.
Thing is, even now Squats are considered among the abhumans in the Imperium. They're allowed as much as they are because they're useful & their practices help the Imperium more than mess up. It's kinda like how the AdMech get some of their own shit.
>The Squats just had human tech and made it work for a new size
That's not too meaningful. The Squats too adapted their own things & developed their own technologies. The Dark Age tech could be anything that's not Necron level.
>They might be an ally of the Tau, but they have their own fleets and do their own thing
The same can be argued about the Kroot, Hrud, Rak'Gol & others. They're more allied with the Tau than the Squats to the Imperium.

>>47722585
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. There's a reason elves have so many variations.

>>47749514
/thread

>>47725800
Other than car parts, you're quite wrong

>>47749980

>>47726237
>>47726917

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>>47749514
Exactly this.

Everyone has their own reasons for disliking elves; they're vain or arrogant or pompous, they're treated in a way that makes them overpowered, they're better at everything beyond keeping population levels up and even then they still do a lot of breeding.

But the only problem people ever find with dwarves is that they're an old hat, and sometimes an old hat works better than something new that gets busted in five seconds because it's weird shape or made from bad fabric.

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>>47749514

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>>47739524
> I've never liked how stunty vikings talk like Scotsmen.
this FUCK media n shit for making my anchestors fucking scotts

>>47722585
Because I'm still not tired of the trope.

>>47722585
Because that's what a dwarf is. If you want to make something else, make something else, but it isn't a dwarf, no matter what you call it. I hate /tg/ for being stupidly contrarian. "Oh, I'm original! My Dwarves are different!" Sure, you might have a cool idea for a race, but they aren't dwarves.

>>47722594
You're probably a good guy anon, but I cringe so much when people attribute fantasy tropes to Tolkien.

Read the books! I'd love to have more modern fantasy settings be as nuanced as Middle Earth.

It's Gygax whose tropes people are stealing.

>>47725721
Rape of Nanjing.

>>47752864
Your ancestors are dwarves?

>>47729385
>is underground hot or cold
That depends on the surrounding geology and how deep you are. Some caves and mines are quite cold

>>47722770
like artemis fowl?

>>47724410
Hold your reindeer, Magnusson

>>47725599
>dwarfs drink bear
>not beer
>bear

>>47726335
Well, they ARE Jewish. Pratchett highlighted that.

Dwarfs present a masculine front to the world in order to hide their truest, deepest passions: tea parties, strawberry cakes, ballet and flower arrangement. Their greatest invention in history was rose bushes that grow underground.

>>47753898
The forgemines are just where they take all the tourists. It's the flower garden/maid cafe underneath it that's the dwarf city center.

>>47724676
That's how I run my dwarves too. A wizard wanted a loyal set of guards to patrol and maintain his mining operations so he made dog-people dwarves.

>>47752979
And I hate you for being an aggressive autist who thinks that a made up fantasy race based on some very vague myths should only conform to a rigid set of stereotypes and cliches

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Nobody mentioned dwemer yet?

>>47754919
Because they're too different for many people's tastes. I personally love them, but they're not gimli so some people hate them and say they're not dwarves

>>47755014
This is dragons vs wyvern tier argument
If they are called dwarves they are the dwarves of the setting

>>47754919
they aren't known for martial prowess, so I personally consider them more like gnomes.
in TES, only the humans refer to them as dwarves, while all the Mer rightly refer to them as some kind of elf.
in this case, their status as dwarves is contentious and not entirely agreed upon.

that being said, their tech and magic is cool, and i wish Skyrim handled it better

>>47755206
Since when are dwarves known for martial prowess? Thars not something I've ever associated them with

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>>47755250
It's a mystery.

>>47755250
they were in LotR and my main source DF.
also, most art i see of them has them well armed and/or armored, which to me implies a warrior culture.

>>47755276
Having warriors doesn't make them warriors, otherwise all but pacifist cultures would be 'known for martial prowess'. I've always seen them as craftsmen, laborers, and engineers way before I see them as warriors

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>>47755316
All of that gives them good weapons and in general they are described as strong, tough and brave. I'm not saying that they are a "warrior culture" like Orcs, but they are most of the time great fighters for various reasons.

>>47722709
Stronger-looking and stronger beyond looks. Reminder that Gimli was physically weaker than Boromir and Aragorn and while he was the bravest against orcs in Battle of the Hornburg he feared to fight evil humans (who were too big for him).

>>47722585
Don't fix what ain't broken.

>>47722585
>norse dwarf
>scots dwarf
>slav dwarf
>usa dwarf
>jew dwarf

We've seen em all, son

>>47755524
But they are broken. And by broken I mean boring.

>>47755599
They are literally the most consistent fantasy archetype of all time, that's saying a massive amount for the quality of the archetype.

You being tired of it and it being boring are not the same thing, famalam.

>>47755599
Full house + dubs of truth.
inb4 elf posting

>>47755636
No,I'm pretty sure that means that fantasy is a dead genre,which is true.

>>47755594
Yeah, but those are just different paint jobs on the same boring, played out chasis. What I like to see are very different takes on the tropes and ideas of the dwarf, like the Dwemer or the Jadeborn

Why should you change something that's not broken? And dwarf craftmanship never breaks

>>47755702
-->>47755599

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>>47755657
You don't understand the point of the default races.
They exist to be consistent. Fantasy is not a "dead genre" it's a setting unto itself, a set of things people are instantly familiar with so they feel comfortable in a new setting before they actual know much about it. If you're just going to do some stupid shit like "OH FUG THE DWARVES DON'T ACTUALLY LIKE TO DIG" for the sole purpose of convincing yourself you really needed to make your own setting instead of just playing forgotten realms, there is no point in calling them dwarves.
>>47755666
Dwemer are just Babylonian dwarves with precious little original about them. If that's what you're holding up as an "interesting subversion" you don't need much subverting.

>>47722662
Le british slang

>>47755751
>>47755599
"boring" is not a criticism. "I'm tired of them" is not a criticism. If you're tired of dwarves then just stop playing in settings with dwarves.

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>>47725599
>drinking bear

>>47755795
Default races are a retarded idea, though. Fantasy is about imagination and creativity, and to me bolting some cliche stereotypes onto your setting because its what you're expected to do is moronic, especially considering how rigid and defined some of the defaults are. I dont want to have to world build around the assumption that there are surly scotchviking midgets out in the mountains. I don't like the fact that if I want to use the idea of dwarves or change them up to fit my world/tastes/etc I can't, because otherwise some stupid faggot couldn't show up at my table, turn off his brain, put on a shitty brogue, and start shouting about axes and beards and ancestors instead of actually developing a character or getting immersed in the setting. Playing a cliche default in any kind of developed setting is like going to a Thai restaurant and demanding a cheeseburger.

>>47755795
>dwemer are normal dwarves
Numidium says hi

>>47755496
Gimli was also the only member of the fellowship who wore armor the whole time while everyone else struggled to march on even when they were purposefully travelling light

Tolkien Dwarves are not stronger than men, but what is special about them is their constitution and stamina

>Since they were to come in the days of the power of Melkor, Aulë made the Dwarves strong to endure. Therefore they are stone-hard, stubborn, fast in friendship and in enmity, and they suffer toil and hanger and hurt of body more hardily than all other speaking peoples; and they live long, far beyond the span of Men, yet not for ever

>>47755986
It's not as much bolting you to cliche stereotypes as it is having something familiar so that the audience as a whole can readily understand at least something about the setting. If not dwarves, then humans, or a familiar culture, or something along those lines. The only settings I've seen that depart completely from anything familiar are mostly doing it for the wow factor.

If you want to change up your dwarves a bit, all the more power to you, and don't let your players assumptions scare you off. If they can handle different elves or tieflings, they can handle different dwarves. I'm not saying you have to go crazy with it - I prefer my dwarves to be Romans that simply went underground when Rome fell, so to speak, and are setting out to reclaim their empire again.

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>>47725800
>Battleships

You realize there is now a whole franchise dedicated to cute battleship girls, right?

>>47756906
I get that. I totally get that, and I try to generally give people plenty of points of reference, and try to explain any unusual stuff I add as well as I can. And I actually like some of the classics and playing with the tropes for them. Its fun, and doing it right can get you a pretty neat take on whatever race/idea/etc. But I have seen and have had people who rage and complain if you vary from the norm by more than just an accent. If your dwarves aren't gimlis, if your elves aren't prissy woodland dwellers, if your magic is anything other than D&D/Video game type shit, then its dumb and not a real X , and you're just trying to force your dumb special snowflake shit down their throats. I don't like it, and not all of my players flip out about fae elves/friendly farming dwarves/trickster merchant goblins/etc, but some definitely do.

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>>47757103

>>47725410

Excuse me, mam', but I can see your unmentionables.

>>47757273
>>47757103
get the h*ck out

>>47757103
>>47757273
>>>/out/

>>47722745
because those basic characteristics have been defined for dwarfs even going back to norse mythology. they made thors hammer and all the other fancy shit the gods have. elves etc. are much more inconsistent. its also a good logical package: being small, not getting stuck in mining shafts, mining for raw material like iron and valuable gems and metals, therefore being greedy and good smiths. and since thats a hardworking down to ground and manly lifestyle they have fitting personallity too.

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>>47725800
I think you are trying to be sarcastic I know examples for all off those.

>>47757653
even car parts?

>>47722629
Dwarfs all speak German, drive tanks and live in the desert. Afrika Korps Dwarfs always work in my campaigns.

Because dorfs are perfect.

>>47757936
They really aren't, and this whole "Dwarves are perfect as caricatures of themselves and never need to be changed in any way" meme is why a lot of people don't like them

>>47722650
Tolkien wrote about more than one type of orc, and more than one type of elf. Maybe if he'd distinguished more between the Iron Hills Dwarfs and the Blue Mountains Dwarfs we'd have multiple interpretations.
Notice how multiple types of halflings never work out? Kender and 4th edition gypsies are both just cribbing badly from Bilbo's kleptomaniac tendencies.

Strange that all the dwarf stereotypes are based off Gimli, even though all 13 dwarfs from The Hobbit had a completely different style. Sneaky, whiny, greedy, using bows and swords, cunning, arguably using spells, etc.

The Hobbit dwarfs were diaspora Jews, Gimli was a highly idealized vision of an ancient Judean warrior (Consider this: the most famous band of warriors in ancient Judea was called the Maccabites, literally "of the hammer", because their leader Judah Maccabi was famous for using a hammer in combat).

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>>47757318
>>47757341
>doesn't like big girls

Lo! A homo stands amongst us!

>>47757788
Even car parts >>47750078

>>47758797
Specifically the dwarven stereotypes are based on a caricature of Gygax's dwarves, who were in turn caricatures of Gimli. Dwarves seem like they're all the same because they're literally all just Gimli writ extra large

>>47758957
>weeb
>footfag
>kantautist

Seriously tho, pls kys in /v/

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>>47759120
perhaps vore more your style?

>>47758957
>>47759164
s t o p

>>47759205
okay

enjoy shitposting about angry drunk midgets

>>47759224
>shitposting
>he says while posting literally worst fetishes, and worst combinations of fetishes
giantess is shit
feet is shit
crushing is shit
vore is shit, let alone macro/micro which is the most shit
animu is shit, especially this shitty low poly stuff
your taste in anime in general is pretty damn shit
you are shit
kill yourself

>>47737739
Well it doesn't fucking look like one.

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>>47755038
now you're walking the line between altering and labeling

if you take James Bond out of the Cold War, is he still James Bond? Or is he just Daniel Craig wearing a nametag that says "James Bond?" If you do the "James Bond is just a codename not a person" theory, aren't you losing something important, something that made the REAL James Bond what he was?

>>47737739
>Queen's Blade is a good thing.
At least the game is interesting, that's for sure.
Not sure about the anime.

>>47759265

Ahh, a 8-year-old baby.

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>>47759847
guy posting that giantess shit here. dont harsh his mellow, he had good reason to harsh mine.

it's not for everyone.

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>>47759022
>>47726917

>>47722585
Not dorf-related, but Elves in my setting live far up north, build incredible mountainside structures out of ice, have very little to do with nature and actively hunt large game for furs and pelts, which in their society dictate how noble and strong a particular hunter is.
You go to a formal event, you wear your biggest pelt.

>>47759847
22 year old kissless fetishnigger detected.

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>>47760254
man-who-gets-tremendously-upset-about-other-people's-kinks detected.

>>47760306
>man-who-gets-tremendously-upset-about-shit-kinks*

>>47760209
And they are called elves why?

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>>47760424
no u

>>47760439
Their physical qualities are similar to elves, elongated ears, slender physique, etc. I do plan to give them a different name when the setting is more developed, but in essence they are physically elves.
There a problem with that?

>>47760445
>brown
>downs eyes
1/infinity

>>47760439
I can see why he called them elves, this is pretty close to their norse version but more suited to the element ice. Or at least this is the vibe I get from them.

>>47733221
I prefer Billy Connolly dorfs to Viking dorfs

>>47743295
>>47743691
>>47743434
There's no fact within middle earth, where dwarfs go when they die.

Elves believed they turn to stone, some think they get a place with Mandos and Aule, some think they go nowhere, but return to rebuild the world after the final battle.

I think it's all three.

>>47760676
That bit about elves is not literal, it'd be pretty easy to confirm if a dwarf turns into a fucking statue. It meant that elves believed dwarves simply went into the natural cycle in the dust-to-dust sense and had no further afterlife

How about dwarves that live near the coast and are sea traders/pirates etc?

>>47761328
Elves have sort of been there and done that, but it would be an interesting take on dwarves if not ripe for lazy "blackbeard"-like pirate comparisons.

>>47761328
I wanted to do something like this and let their craftsmanship carry over to constructing ships. Then they finally can be vikings.
The reason why they construct such sturdy ships is because they are absolutely shit at swimming

>>47761358
I also thought about them taming sea creatures and using them too.
>>47761370
That is a good motivator
Plus kick ass canons on their ships.

>>47722585
They are absolutely the same fucking thing, even when they shouldn't. Just like people.

>>47727172
This is basically it. They scar themselves and eat people when the author hates africans, and they conquer and rape in thick furs when the author hates mongols.

How about Haida Tlingit orcs? Aztec orcs?

>>47722629
I like HEX's variation.

Dwarves are short men made of rocks that have a penchant for technology and destruction.
Humans like to build, Dwarves like to destroy. Explosives, war machines, half-baked ideas to dig out all the ground under the world and collapse the crust? Dwarves.

They're also MADE OF STONE.
The way you make more Dwarves is by sweeping up the remains of a dead/exploded/crushed one, throwing that and some more rocks into a press, and squashing it all together.

>>47761555
I do plains Indians p'orcs, with a dash of Hopi, Pueblo, and Maya. They're the oldest, most primitive race, the Titan's first crack at creating mortal servants. They handed the job over to the boar-like Titan of Freedom and Strength, so the race meant to be their slaves turned out wildly strong and wildly resentful of anyone and anything that tried to control them. That's prevented them from forming any sort of civilization bigger than a band of tribes, so they're more or less how they've been for ages. They have the best shamans, because they're not too much younger as a race than the spirits themselves. They have a weird corporeal bond with their tribe mates, where everything is split among them, i.E a deadly plague makes all of them slightly sick, and a shaman giving one a blessing makes them all slightly stronger

>>47729510
>>47738631
The Men of Gondor were distantly related to the Numenoreans, who were blessed with long lives and health comparable to the elves', along with the island of Numenor after the War of Wrath as a dual reward and compensation

The term for the descendants of the Numenoreans after Eru sank Numenor (due to disobeying the one condition they had for all their gifts, not sailing to the Undying Lands) is Dúnedain, men of the West. There's still some pure-blooded Dúnedain left, the Rangers of the North. They mostly lived in the wilderness keeping all the awful tainted shit away from the rest of civilization. The Men of Gondor mingled so heavily with other people that they're completely normal by LotR except for a select few like Denethor or Faramir (it's stated that this is not the case with Boromir)

There's actually a Numenorean still alive by the time of LotR, the Mouth of Sauron.

I don't know where that anon got that idea that orcs were good smiths. Orcish stuff is remarked to be pretty badly made, at least when compared to the magical or borderline magical shit the whole Fellowship

>>47722585
Dwarves of Shannara, which is otherwise LotR ripoff down to characterization, are claustrophobic gardeners, so no, they are not "always" the same; and in the elder scrolls they are steampunk elves.

That said, they're a good meme race, trying to subvert them too much defeats their purpose.

>>47761832
Orcs may not have been good smiths, but they were definitely alright engineers, at least in Hobbit.

Incapable of doing anything pretty, but capable of doing something clever.
Because they were German.

>>47762031
Yes, that is their main motif besides being awful and cruel. Like how they have a drink with effects comparable to Miruvor, except their version is a hard liquor that's painful to swallow and brings people into a "heat" rather than gently restoring their spirits like Miruvor does

>>47722585
Because they're too stubborn to change.

>>47761471
>Goes off to make Orcs that burst into Human villages unannounced, tell the males how fucking shitty they are for being males, and tell the females they're all enslaved to the patriarchy in a submissive role even though there are female adventurers about.

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>>47758957
She really Dwarfs the train.

>>47722585
>Gully Dwarves

>>47761832
>Orcish stuff is remarked to be pretty badly made
Actually, they're the guys with all the explosives & shit. If we were to remove most of the magic & exotic metals from Middle Earth, the Orcs would be some of the best in technology.

>>47762167
ayyy there he is

>>47762213
>Orcs bust in yelling KEK KEK KEK KEK while trying to build a wall to keep adventurers out
>complain about PC human culture not letting them kill dwarves and rape nubile young elf women

>>47762312
All that shit is made under the directions of Saruman and Sauron, who are both essentially fallen angels instructed in science and close pupils of the smith god. No one else understands that level of technology, at least not in the Third Age or not at all if the use of magic is off the table

Do we really need to reinvent dwarves? There's nothing wrong with a stock fantasy race and changing it up too much defeats their purpose. If you're gonna make them ants or something retarded then you might as well just call them something else entirely at that point.

Also, if you do want more than "northern race analog that lives in the mountains" from your dwarves, the best way to do it is actually play those cultures straight and portray them accurately. The Norse weren't all Vikings who sailed the sea and reaved; the grand majority were traders. The Irish and Scottish weren't all drunk highlanders either - they have a very rich history and mythology people completely gloss over. Just pay respect to the actual cultures they're based on and you'll already be better than every hack who ripped off Gygax and Tolkien.

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>dude, what is traditional fantasy races.... WEREN'T?!

This is the biggest fucking cancer in fantasy.

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>>47762364
>A wall
>Keep filthy Adventurers out
>Make Mordor Great Again

Kek on a stek with a brek

>>47722585
dwarves are always the same because dwarves are awesome.

i like how they're usually portrayed- big drinkers. friendly, but moody and grumpy. coarse language, coarse accents, coarse personalities, inelegant, blunt, but wholly likeable despite- or maybe because of- these qualities.

>>47760306
Maybe people wouldn't get upset if those kinks weren't posted were they're not relevant.

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Sounds like someone hasn't played a fookin' dwarf! That, or there's an unnatural amount of tree lovin' 'ere!

As fer why we use axes, IT'S TO CUT DOWN YER' GODDAMNED PANSY TREES YA' TREE HUGGER! Just cause it pisses yee off~

>>47763292
But you love trees too...

>>47762718
"Traditional fantasy races" is the biggest cancer in fantasy.

>>47754734
Did you fuck them?

>>47762718
>>47763728
How abouts we let people enjoy things even if we don't, k?

>>47722673
Not really. Tolkien based dwarves off of dark elves from the Pros Edda. Granted, the dark elves had two major characteristics: they lived underground and were the best crafters (made new hair for Sif when no one else could). But that and 1700-1900a.d. gnomes is where you'll find most of Tolkien's inspiration for dwarves.

I made a really long write up about Tolkien's inspiration for dwarves and elves if you have any more questions.

>>47722585
Not enough creativity.

>>47727348

Underground, they have fungi/burrowers etc., but they also are great brewers. Mountains actually arent horrible for growing hops or wine, and a bit of area for barley and boom they can brew ale. Since they are prolific miners and craftsmen in almost every cannon, they could probably just trade goods to get whatever food they wanted. Pigs and chickens are also really easy to raise even in close captivity, so those would probably be staple meats. Goats also thrive on mountainsides, although they need a large amount of land, so I imagine there would be some dwarf shepherds as well.

But yeah, for crops, they wouldn't have the land to grow the amount of wheat an entire city would need, nor nearly enough for livestock, but they clearly have an excess of metal, gold, and gems to trade for simple foods and spices.

>>47732396
Please respond to this anon's post. The only answer he got didn't actually answer the question.

>>47765266
It did

There's no conflict. Most dwarven kingdoms are in the East, not on Middle-Earth. The petty dwarves are exiles from the East

>>47722629
Not use them and move away from generic fantasy mainstays.

Dwarves, Elves, and the like fill in character archetypes for a game about your characters. They provide starting points and narrative hooks. The key is to provide choices that fill these archetypes, while also avoiding being redundant.

>>47724967
Good. We're asking the wrong question. These threads are all about asking how can we reimagine a dead horse so it's not a dead horse.

>>47727348
taters would be good. The mining city of Aspen Colorado went through a drawn out 'quite period' after the silver crash and it, and the surrounding area, produced the largest amount of potatoes in the west for a few decades.

>>47762443
According to The Hobbit, orcs are explicitly good at making cunning things for war (but not beautiful things) and are theorized to have invented airplanes and tanks at some point. They're just usually far too lazy to do it.

>>47767884
Tolkien really hated industrialization. I remember a quoit from him condemning the invention of the combustion engine.

>>47768019
Obviously. He's made that quite clear. It still doesn't change the fact that Tolkien's orcs, even left to their own devices, are plenty clever.