Warhammer 40k General

>>47536392
>it's an "aliens don't understand the english language" episode

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>>47536383
3rd for the knights in space.

>>47536392

Well, 'e's Venerate in' 'e? I've been t' over a hunnred worlds in my time in th' guard, and there's these statues all over what say "Venerate the Immortal Emperor".

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If I attach the Burna bomma's spinny turret to my blitza bomma, can I still use it in GW tournaments or is that against DA RULES?

>>47536742
Naw naw, it depends on th' local dia-leck. I fought on a pilgrim world once, and this 'uge cathedral which pulled in pilgrims from across the sector, it had plinths calling him Praise and Allgloryto. Maybe some o' them are fer them folks from feudal worlds.

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So, fellow heretics, you had enough time to test all the new CSM formations in our supplements.

What do you think?
Some nice lists you did with those?
What's your favourite?

I'd tried them all, and I must say i love the Cult of Slaughter, Bretheren of the Dark Covenant and Black Legion Warband.
It was so awesome to field my Dark Apostles and CSM again. It was a long time.

>inb4 yes, they are not Tau level bullshit, but it's nice to have something new. This is how all formations should look like imho.

>>47537339
That one formation with respawning cultists, mixed with two sorceror cabals, allied to daemons was brutal when i played against it. Massive footslogging hordes that respawned, sorcerors out the ass and a sneaky mini-screamerstar with nurglings. I just didnt have enough anti-infantry to kill them off completely, and playing non-flyrant nidzilla the only decent high-shot unit i had was that one unit of thirty termagants-which shot me in the ass just as often as i shot him. My Tyrant+guard was tarpitted early by the Screamerstar. Sure i was running something about as unoptimised as possible, but respawning cultists is genuinely great and occupied the entire centre of the board the whole game. Still not CSM proper and still allied to daemons, but made a great game for both of us.

>>47537416
How many cultist did he had? In how many units?
I'm still finding the right balance.

>>47537463
It varied, the one with his ML3 and chaplain-equivalent was maxed and nurgly, otherwise they were between 16 and 20 (proxied as green army men because holy shit) each with an attached ML2 sorc). And a full 8 units, supported by two tzeentch heralds and some screamers and some nurglings. We let it be known to each other the basic ideas of what we would be running, but yeah. My biggest problem, defensively, was those fucking sorcerors and their fucking force swords, and the devilgaunts killing a carnifex turn 1 because 'shoot urself lel'

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>>47537525
>mfw i only have 35 cultists total
Well, i always wanted an excuse for making more cultists.

>>47537541
He had 45 actual cultists total, most of whom were in the maxed out nurgly squad. The rest were green army men because there was something like 160-odd total cultists and even the cheapo snapfits take forever to make and paint

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>>47537560
There is this dude i know that makes commission painting.
He just put on his price list that he does 10 men troops for 21€.

I'm gonna make him regret it that decision.

>>47537560
I have played triple hellcult with 170 fearless cultists before at 1000 points and it tarpits everything.

Any advice on turning a regular Ork into a warboss? No way I'm paying 20 bucks for one.

I got some bits from the dakkajet kit, but that's it really. Doubt that'll help.

>>47537892
The problem with that plan is ork bosses are bigger than the nobz, who are bigger than the boyz. You could do it, but you'll end up with a bosslet.

>>47537892
throw it in the bin and buy a warboss? The whole point of warbosses is that they're way, way bigger than the normal orks, so you can't really use anything that isn't warboss sized as a basis for a conversion. People have used ogres, and like, demon princes, or scratchbuilt big suits of mega armour for warbosses before, though, but that's still not very cheap. Alternatively, you could be a git and say that one of your nobz is a warboss.

You prick.

>>47537892
Oi! Iz yoze a weedy grot or a propa warbozz? Boyz ain't nobz and nobz ain't bozzes. Stop muckin' about!

>>47537892
Look for advice on modeling with greenstuff and the like in the wip threads

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>>47537971
>>47537996
>>47538026
Thanks lads, my wallet frowns but the green hordes smile. 'ave a pic of my nearly-finished Blitza-bommer.

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>finally have the money to order the bits and build my custom platoon
>discover just now that i need 5 more minis to make a platoon command squad

well fuck, thats what i deserve for only playing tanks and veterans in chimeras. gotta wait i dont know how much time until i can order the additional bits again so i can finally play some conscripts

>>47536633
>Not Dark Angels

Yeah, Alright Grey Knights might have it in their name but the Knightly Orders of Caliban's values are always instilled in each and every Dark Angel especially those of the Inner Circle.

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>>47536383
Wrong general image, friendo.

>>47540522
Knightly values like treason and fratricide?

>>47540886
*screams externally*

Sup /tg/ Just bought a knight renegade set, intending to make them both original donut steel freeblades and trying my hand putting my graphic design skills to custom decals, already decided to paint one a solid bronze with silver trim, but I'm having trouble deciding on what scheme to go with the other one, I want purple to be the base colour with a gold trim, but I don't know what secondary colour to paint (for splitting up the armour plates). It can't be white for the custom decals to work.

>>47540975
If it's a darker purple, try a mid-to-dark green. Also, the WiP thread would be a more appropriate place to ask.

Is there a chaos god of ripping people off?

>>47540940
No, values like LOYALTY AND VENGEANCE, you filthy self-serving heretic.

>>47541060
Loyalty to what? Obviously not the Emperor, you fucking traitor.

>>47541088
>repeating this bullshit story again

To the Legion.

You and I both know that in the end, you betrayed your brothers in a uncertain situation.

Around Fallen, don't be bawling.

>>47541060
All the gods are chaotic in nature and have no qualms not giving people what they asked for.
That being said Tzeentch and Slaanesh make the biggest habit of it.

>>47540940
>Knightly values like treason and fratricide?

I will take Origins of the English Monarch for 500, Alex.

>>47541088
Says one of the Thousand Sons...

Is there any info on Altansar besides the 2 paragraph wiki description? We know they're
>home of the Dark Reapers aspect
>lost in the warp for 10,000 years
>never take off helmet or speak loudly
>currently hiding in realspace near Terra somehow

I'm try to imagine how they'd fight, for a possible fluff/painting project. Does the following seem reasonable?

>Lots of Farseers/Warlocks
Because, like Ulthwé, they were in the Eye for a long time
>Lots of quasi-Rangers
They appear to be pretty sneaky, having survived the warp and now lurking near Terra. I imagine they don't have any/many runaways though since Rangers in the Eye would probably attract daemonic attention. So I'd guess they use their regular Guardians as a sort of Rangers (except less insane/likely to get everyone killed)
>Probably have some wraith units
Because 10,000 years is a long time to be fighting Daemons without waking up a single sleeping ancestor
>Main/only Aspect on the craftworld is the Dark Reaper
Obvious reasons

Anything else?

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>>47541128
You underestimate the number of your enemies, fratricidal cur. We still remember the Ophidian Gulf.

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>>47541137
WE ARE FUCKING LOYAL
JUST WAIT UNTIL AHRIMAN GIVES OUR BADIES BACK

>>47541205
Bodies*
Goddamnit talking with no tonge sure is hard

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>>47540886
I'll keep it in mind

>>47541200
Too bad no one remembers your codex though.

Hows the crusade?

Have IG gone into NPCism?

They've have a lot of special characters cut and the last update they got was just an excuse to eliminate their pewter models. Will Vostroyans/Mordians/Steel legion/Tallarn ever see a range update again, or will they fade away?

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>>47541281
>>47541205
>>47541200
>>47541128
>>47541088
>>47541060

LOOKS LIKE SOME CHAPTERS NEED A LITTLE EXPLOSIONS IN THEIR LIFE

>>47541281
Shitty, since we're fucking hemorrhaging battle brothers to retcons and ever-lamer fluff. At least we're not the Space Wolves.

>>47541290
Yes, they have. You can thank Monkey for that too.
They made pask into some generic asshole commander for longstrike to fight and almost kill.

>>47541308
>CHAPTERS

That isn't how you spell Legions.

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>>47541325
>At least we're not the Space Wolves.

There we can find common ground.

Weren't yall known to have upwards of 4000 in the earlier editions? What did they retcon them down to?

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So is there any actual fluff on how the riptide deploys? Does it drop from orbit? because that's fucking metal.

>>47541517
>that's fucking metal.

Fucking idiot, its an MC. That means its flesh.

>>47541517
The jump outta Mantas.

>>47541431
Yeah, the 4e codex put us somewhere in excess of 3k. They retconned us down to barely above-strength. They also fucked up the few fluff pieces they give us and managed to find a way to exclude us from the demi-company. I can only hope that we get a supplement or campaign book at some point. I keep hoping that they make an Armageddon book, as that would both give us some nice things and hopefully unfuck the Orks. But no, we keep getting fucking Tau shit and reprinted SM formations. Thanks, GW.

>>47541517
They just jump from ships about 10 stories high off the ground at most. There is lore somewhere how they deployed when going against imperial knights. Mind you, this was before their fluff went to total shit and was only partially shit.

Magnus Forge World miniature when?

Also, the Burn of Prospero could be an Imperial Armour volume too

>>47541517
I've got some vague memory of an anime where mechs on cargo sleds with parachutes are shunted out the back of big cargo plane like tanks, but I can't remember the anime at all.

>>47541860

They did that quite often in Gundam Wing.

>>47541200
Damned fanatics.

Nothing else. matters. but. hunting. the. Fallen.

ONE of these maniacs is able to spread dissent and heresy like a storm, and you want more of them out there? Get out of our way, let us do our job.

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>>47536392
Fuck off blue-skin

>>47541963
I'd love to get back to crusading against important things (like the biggest waaagh ever, the 13th black crusade, etc.), but we're going to need you to stop SHOOTING US while cleaning up the mess YOU MADE. If you want to kill some marines, the Space Wolves are right that way. Take as many as you want.

How many T8 monstrous creatures do I need to pack into a 1000 point game to get the other guy to just rage quit?

>>47542112
If you're going to be a cunt, why half-ass it? You should be asking how many you CAN fit into 1k. If you're going to make someone quit, you might as well give them a story worth telling.

>>47542145
Well, how many then? Necrons can get 4 t7s, but not ignoring bolter fire is weak. There is a single Wraithknight formation for Eldar, so you could get 3.

>>47542112
None, because the only t8 monsters areoverpriced and shitty in other ways

>>47542112
Only T8 MC I can think of is the Wraithlord. Which with all upgrades is only 155pts, which unbound gives you 6.

Or you can strip the heavy weapons and just run 8 glaive Wraithlords.

>>47542112
I'm running 1500pt CAD with 5.

Which necron units/formations should I avoid for casual games?

>>47540513
conscripts are the shit, my friend.

I always find joy in playing them, cause whatever happens, I paid 3pts per model on them. So if they die to shooting? Ha! someone shot the conscripts instead of anything else. If they die in assault? Ha! someone assaulted the conscripts other than anything else! If they live on unscathed and kill half a marine? Ha! My conscripts are heroes

Hypothetically after the HH series ends (which we all know it never will) what series would you like to see replace it?

I personally would love to see a series based around the war in heaven to finally give the Xeno a chance to shine.
I t

>>47542591
Orks, eldar, and necrons only? Psssshh.

>>47542183
>There is a single Wraithknight formation for Eldar
no there isn't

Does anything stop a black legion CAD from allying with a crimson slaughter cad.

In order to add a lord with slaughter relics?

>>47542732
"allying" doesn't exist as it did in 6th edition.

Your free to take whatever detachments you want of any faction in any combination. They interact with each other using the ally matrix.

>>47542764
>>47542732
Unless of course there is a specific restriction preventing you from doing something (for example, the Allied Detachment can't be your primary, so you can't have all Allied Detachments)

>>47541177
I've thought about this before when I started my eldar army. I ended up not going with Altansar, went with a similarly coloured homebrew. I couldn't really find a lot more information though. My thinking was that due to their connection with Maugen Ra and the dark reapers they would be fans of heavy firepower. I figured that they'd be light on aspect warriors other than dark reapers, but heavy on weapon platforms - vypers, vauls wrath, walkers, tanks... all the big guns. And yes, farseers, warlocks and guardians. I hadn't really thought about wraiths though, I suppose they would have needed to make use of them.

Why is Deff Skwadron such an indecipherable mess? The art style is awful and you never know what the actual fuck is going on on a page.

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>>47542910

>>47542732
Detachments and detachments are legal

Detachments and formations are legal

Formations and formations are legal

Formations and unbound is legal

Detachments and unbound are ILLEGAL

>>47543027
>Formations and unbound is legal
>Detachments and unbound are ILLEGAL
Wat

>>47536392
The emperor's name is Ralph.

I thought everybody knew that.

>>47543053
You can do it but you don't get command benefits

>>47543053
If you go unbound, you don't get any command benefits (the bonuses from detachments, like force orgs or decurions), but you can still use formations

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>>47542776
So, if I have two black legion lords with black legion relics, how would I get a third lord with crimson slaughter relics?

>>47543079
Take a crimson slaughter detachment or formation with a lord in it

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>>47543067
Did you just say the Emperor's name is "vomit"?

>>47543067
Emperor's name's Karl.
Period.

>>47543079
I don't think I can stress enough that its literally "take as many detachments. Of whatever type. Of any faction. as you want. Formations are detachments too." (provided you obey the individual restrictions on each detachment)

>>47543053
Detachments have to be combined with other detachments or formations in order to receive command benefits.

In other words Detachment + Unbound is /legal/, but completely fucking pointless as the detachment bonus becomes voided, and without that, why are you bothering with a detachment?

Space Crates are $50US.

>>47543228
*flesh crates

I need some feedback on the Army list I've been working on:

>HQ:
>Helbrecht
>Emperor’s Champion

>Troops:
>Crusader Squad (5 standard Initiates, 1 Meltagun Initiate, 1 Power Axe Initiate, 1 Sword Brother w/Melta Bombs) in a Drop Pod with a Missile Launcher
>Crusader Squad (5 standard Initiates, 1 Meltagun Initiate, 1 Power Axe Initiate, 2 Neophytes, 1 Sword Brother w/Melta Bombs) in a Drop Pod with a Missile Launcher
>Crusader Squad (5 standard Initiates, 1 Meltagun Initiate, 1 Power Axe Initiate, 2 Neophytes, 1 Sword Brother w/Melta Bombs) in a Drop Pod with a Missile Launcher

>Storm Hammer formation:
>Assault Marines (7 Assault Marines with Jump Packs, 2 Assault Marines with Eviscerators, 1 “Vet SGT” w/Melta Bomb)
>Assault Marines (7 Assault Marines with Jump Packs, 2 Assault Marines with Eviscerators, 1 “Vet SGT” w/Melta Bomb)
>Devastator Squad (5 Bolter Devastators, 2 Grav Devastators, 2 Multi-melta Devastators, 1 SGT) in a Drop Pod with Missle Launcher
>Devastator Squad (5 Bolter Devastators, 2 Grav Devastators, 2 Multi-melta Devastators, 1 SGT) in a Drop Pod with Missle Launcher

So the general idea is being super aggressive with more targets than you can shake a stick at. Helbrecht and the Emperor’s Champion ride with the Squad that doesn’t have any Neophytes and one of the other squads arrive first turn. Storm Hammer gets Combat Squaded so each of the ASM combat Squads get an Eviscerator and the Devastators split so the Grav goes in one group and the Multi-melta in the other.

In total this puts 60 models basically right on top of the enemy forces turn one, with 20 of the rushing in an tearing things up (and using Black Templar Chapter Tactics to possibly give them Hatred for that turn one assault). Pretty much everything else hits the line on turn two with Helbrecht using his Crusade of Wrath to make the charge extra crunchy.

>>47543097
>>47543115

So is that one required troops choice or two?

>>47543358
It depends on the detachment you take. A detachment is a force org chart, formation, or decurion.

If you want JUST the lord and nothing else, take an Allied Detachment.

Do the wounds from a Str D shot count against the unit or a single individual model? Like if I got 12 wounds from one shot.

>>47543445
Then one model takes 12 wounds.
The only (I think) instance that wounds spill over from a model to its unit is a challenge.

>>47543467
Only against a model. Wounds from Strength D hits, or any other "Hit" that causes multiple wounds doesn't spill over. Your squad sergeant will literally go down to -11 wounds, but they won't carry over.

>>47543467
Woops, see
>>47543482

Challenges confuse me. Do you need to be in charging distance or do you just need LOS?

>>47543695
Challenges happen after charges, at the start of the fight subphase. You need to be in combat to challenge.

>>47543695

Speaking of challenges. Out of curiosity, can you issue challenges to Tyranids? If so, how does it work?

>>47543695
In the same melee. Nothing else matters.

>>47543727
tyrannids don't have many characters, but those characters can be challenged just like everything else.
There's no rules reason it should work differently for them.

>>47543714
>>47543732
So say my Captain charges into a squad. Does he issue the challenge before attacking but after passing the charge?

>>47543727
Yes, you can issue challenges. It works exactly the same. Just needs to be a character.

So why is it that some chapter masters of the greatest first founding chapters don't even wear Terminator Armour?

>>47543352
Why are you mixing the Dev heavy weapons? Make one four melta and the other four grav
Don't waste points on Vet Sarges
Lose the missile launchers on your Pods
Those two changes should let you add more bodies to your Crusader squads - that should help theme survive the turn they land so they are in better shape to charge after that

>>47543773
yes. Challenges are issued, accepted/denied, then you move to the initiative 10 step.

>>47543791
Alright, thanks.

>>47543773
Exactly. Once you're on the fight sub-phase you can issue challenges before I10 swings.

>>47543782
artificer armor and they want to be faster and get into transports.

Are Tachyon Arrows ever worth it? Str 10 AP1 with Range: Yes seems like it could be good for nova, but no one takes them.

>>47543782
Because it makes their butt look fat.

>Go to my FLGS
>An army on sale
>Gorgeously painted 2.5k Space Wolves army for $1,200 or best offer

If I played Wolves, I might have done it.

>>47542112
Eldar
Wraithseer and wraithlords
185
120x3=360
545 total for 4 T8 monstrous creatures that aren't actually terribly overpowered.

The links for the rules databases are down.
Does anyone have any working links?

>>47543772

Challenges are about attack the enemy's ego. Why would a Tyranid show Ego of any kind?

>>47543949
>https://kat.cr/warhammer-40k-pdf-library-t9575373.html

>>47543949
https://mega.nz/#F!BxI1HSgI!0tKymKh9RZTzGpgIA5EyCg

Shit, wrong message.

>>47543829
I think the problem it's the old non-split fire problem. The dudes carrying them will normally either be in warrior/immortal squads, in which case they'll often be firing at infantry (though gauss means they may shoot at tanks), or lychguard squads, in which case they should be in close combat most of the game.

>>47543829
Its 25 points for an one use only shot and they still get cover/invulnerable saves. You could use it for anti tank purposes or if you have points to spare,but its overpriced in my opinion.

>>47540522
Dark angels are more like monks with all the robes and stuff. Nice try though.

>>47544028
I said 'rules reason'. That's fluff.
Besides, the lack of ego is reflected by not being characters.

>>47536383
Should I get the ibook version or the hardcover version of the Dark Angels codex? I want to get the ibook so I can read it while I'm on vacation this week but I've read about inconsistencies between the actual book and the ibook.
help?

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Commander Ra'lai=190

Riptide=190
Ion accelerator, interceptor thingy

10 fire warriors=100
shas'ui
6 fire warriors=54


Hazard team=200
2 suits, phased ion guns, CDS
Hazard team=160
2 suits, CDS
6 pathfinders=66

R'varna=260

Drone Net=280
5 gun drones=70
5 marker drones=70
5 marker drones=70
5 marker drones=70

1500

Do you think R'varnas, y'vahras, ra'lai, and hazard suits are going to get any rules changes? I don't think they will but it would be nice to see the latter two get better

>>47544086
Kill yourself namefag

If you gave wraithblades and wraithguard an extra wound, would 40/50 ppm be a fair price?

Tell me about the greatest squad. or model, in your army.

For me, it is Squad Beakie. When I first started, I thought the beakie helmets looked retarded and made Squad Beakie as the reject squad.

But Squad Beakie has killed daemon princes, hive tyrants and god knows what else and now I love the beakies.

>>47544130
Pretty sure Caliban was a fuedal world and the Lion is seen as a kind of knightly figure though.

>>47544580
An Imperial Guard Veteran Squad sergeant who has slain many terminators, rhinos, and various other shit with his mighty bolt pistol.

For a weapon that is Space Marine standard-issue, the guardsmen seem to do well with it

>>47544580
My second Flyrant I built has had a strong history of never dying, and getting Catalyst. He's taken a few loses before, but he does not die.

>>47544576
No. Git rid of their access to D weapons and keep them where they are.

>>47544580
Repentia, at least before their good AoF got taken away. I've murdered large portions of enemy armies with a full squad of those girls.

>>47544580
I had a guardsman snapshot and wound a primarch one game.

>>47544649
Which primarch?

>>47544672
homebrewed alpharius before FW dropped the Heresy series.

>>47544686
should be noted that his homebrew stats were far worse than they probably should've been as a primarch.

>>47544439
I'd like to see the R'varna go back to when it was OP. I'd like hazards to be competitive instead of shit.

>>47544704
>tau need more op shit
no

I would like to say that I had a lasgun wound a riptide. I should also note I was playing with loaded dice and I said I had a special rule where enemies don't get any saves if I field three ogryns next to a rough rider.

>>47544729
Kek

>>47544704
I wish the game would go back before tau were introduced and the cesspool of today where weebs and mecha faggots roll into warhammer wouldn't exist.

>>47544766
i wish people like you would quit bitching.

>>47544718
>>47544766
It was strong at the time, but it was over-nerfed and in today's meta wouldn't even be that deleterious, you fucking whiners. It'd be better for dealing with ravenwing bikers, though.

>>47544766
>>47544811
I wish i was pretty

>>47544402
anyone?

Whats a fair price for a wraithguard or wraithblade that has an extra wound?

>>47544856
Just houserule it in for free. You're already playing Eldar, who gives a fuck what your opponent thinks.

>>47544766
I like the idea behind Tau, and the original concept art--that they are retards who think 40K operates by the logic we use in the real world.

The problem is that GW, being narrative geniuses, has set up Tau to be so fucking fragile that literally any kind of setback or defeat would result in the extermination of their entire species. Then they made the insane step of declaring that Tau lack FTL. Then they made up a campaign where the Tau are ok because they moved their fleet at speeds that can only be accomplished by FTL.

That last sentence is based on little bits I read after ceasing to read new GW works and may contain inaccuracies.

>>47542558
>>47542558
Wraiths and destroyers. Avoid destroyer cults, canoptek harvest, or anything giving you those units.

Everything else has taken big nerfs since 6E, with barges costing half again what they used to, tesla being changed to no longer work on snap fire, arks jinking makes warriors snap, and fliers got nerfed hard.

>>47544883
No, you don't understand, i'm going with the idea of "nerf something, get something"

would you say 70-80 ppm?

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>>47544704
>I literally can not stop sucking cocks

>>47544580
A Chimera that snapshotted a flying Taumander and killed him.

does anybody else get plasma grenades/missiles besides eldar?

>>47544884
In the latest codex, GW doesn't address Tau FTL at all.

>>47544580
i pushed a tau commander off of the board in combat with a single hormagaunt
hormagaunts always get shit done for me

>>47544884
No, it said the Tau have FTL, but they can only make short hops, and it somehow skirts the warp.

>>47544838
okay then.

Tau FTL in fluff used to work like Nids, using gravity drives. Then they copied warp drive technology, but instead of entering the warp they place their ship just at the entrance to reduce their mass and then use the gravity drive anyway. This allows them to go FTL, but not as fast as actual warp travel.

Aside from wraithgaurd, wraithknights and scatterbikes, are there any other major problems with the eldar?

>>47544580
Piranha got a turn-1 explosion on a land raider while jinking, and in general is very good at harassing and getting stuff done.

Breacher team killed Kharn in CC.

One of my crisis suits managed to scatter both of his frag projectors 7+ inches in the same direction, killing the enemy warlord (Nurgle champion) turn 2.

>>47545036
No idea, no one plays Dark Angels.

>>47544811
Agreed. Oldfags get far too bent out of shape about things like Tau existing.

I should know, I'm one myself. Only I only get pissed about Sisters not getting updated.

>>47541205
I can't wait till the Thousand Sons make a comeback in a good CSM codex. I don't give a fuck about all the other gods or legions, y'all motherfuckers can rot in a dumpster. Just give me a good psychic table, some relics, MoT makes niggas psykers, cheaper Rubrics and the choice to make Terminators Rubrics.

ZAP, MUTHAFUCKA

>>47545076
Tau being OP is legit problem
Tau existing is just whining.

>>47545047
It's not like Warp Travel will get you there in a consistently short time. You may arrive before you ever knew to leave or may show up in M50.

>>47544580
Draig and BC Stern attached to a 5 man Termie squad. Totally not fair but I killed a ten man Marine scout squad on the charge between Draigo and Stern

>>47545102
I don't think they're OP as much as the game is too heavilly biased towards shooting.

Then again I'm the faggot who posted the BT list earlier to basically try and creat e something that can make even the Tau cry.

How would you balance 8E's Assault Phase with the shooting phase?

http://www.strawpoll.me/10364178

>>47545048
Warp Spiders

And that's really about it, aside from the stuff you mentioned everything ranges from merely very good to "only bad in comparison to the rest of the codex"

>>47545109
those are outside chances. Most of the time you get there far faster than the tau drive would let you.

What is chaos' default ccw? Is it just a regular axe? what does it look like?

>>47545131
If you think that was a hard list, you may want to take another look at what Tau and Eldar, or even your own codex can do.

>>47544402
Get the hardback version, it's a very nice codex imo

>>47545151
Modelling units in the naruto running pose gives them 12" movement and 3d6 Run

>>47541860
Armoured Troopers Votoms?

>>47541785
>Also, the Burn of Prospero could be an Imperial Armour volume too
There's a seventh book in line coming up, Anon.

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>>47545178
>Waaagh is the green choice
Didn't even plan that.

>>47545151
I'd bring back the rolling assault. Overwatch negates that being so dangerous to armies.

>>47545231
Newfag here, whats rolling assault?

Friends got a stupid Cheldar Army of 40 models which needs to die. I'm thinking going Elysian Flyboys dropping vets around the bastards and torching them whilst the V&V brigades hellstrike his wave serphants out of existence. Any advice?

>>47545183
this, and it's really the scytheguard that are the big problem.
D on the cannonguard upsets people, and opposing D on infantry is reasonable, but they were S10 AP2 before, and are still strong and weak against the same things they were before.

Outside of those things the codex would be powerful, but not stupidly so.

>>47545151
Charge range is now d6+6
Any situation where you currently can't charge (deep strike, non-assault transport, after running, etc) is 2d6 instead
Formations that currently let you charge out of deep strike instead give you d6+6 range
Reduce costs of melee weapons, most haven't changed from pre-6e pricing when power weapons were all ap2 instead of different options

>>47541860
patlabor

>>47545200
You mean lame ass Gladius MSU spam or copy and pasting the latest Tau or Eldar list from the internet?

I've found I win more games by throwing such lame crap to the side and just running what I want to run. And modifying the Blacktide to be a drop pod list like I did is something I'd actually want to play.

>>47545151
>make assault 6+d6 (possibly 12+d6 for bikes/beasts/calvery/jump packs)
>failed assaults go half the distance
>difficult terrain still -2 inches

>>47545199
anything you want, usually a chainsword

>>47545248
after you sweep a unit you can consolidate into another unit to continue assault, basically you fuck gunline armies and silly players that leave their units too close together

>>47545270
>This kills the warhammer

>>47545248
You used to be able to consolidate into new assaults by ending your move in contact with other units. Prevented castling and gunlines.

>>47545282
>>47545302
>after you sweep a unit you can consolidate into another unit to continue assault
Holy shit, that sounds fucking awesome!

>>47541860
Gasaraki had the mechs kneeling on pallets.

>>47545322
my group houseruled it for like a month and it worked out great for nids

>>47545322
Until a deathstar katamari'd thru your entire army because you don't have the 3+ saves or the WS4 to even begin to stand a chance.
IG was bottom tier for years due to that and shit vehicle rules. The only reason Tau avoided it was FoF.

>>47545322
3rd also let you assault out of transports and let marines fire their bolters before charging

It was a glorious time to play blood angels. (first turn charge FTW)

>>47545364
then dont bunch your shit up like its a napoleonic

>>47545364
perhaps you shouldn't keep your units bunched up or do blasts/templates not boastfully murder your guys?

>>47545280
Fuck no. I think that most of the netlists are propped up by horrible tournament rules and the expectation that you're going to be fighting a small variety of armies. The strongest lists probably don't even come from the strongest codexes, to be honest. The gladius is stupid and people spend too much time worshiping the D. Spooky ghosts are ridiculously OP, but that does not make them an end-all-be-all unit.

I'm just saying that that list has problems if your intention is to stomp the meta. You have a lot of wasted points (power weapons and odd squad sizes). Your small deployment footprint leaves you open to getting violated by blasts and novas. You have absolutely no fallback plan. If your opponent is in any way resistant to the operative strategy, you may as well concede. You win or lose in a single turn with no chance for asspulls. In short, it's a gimmick. It might be fun for a while, but it's not going to last.

>>47545364
And now you can overwatch which is frankly a good way to widdle down weakened units.

That said I'd really like the game to move to alternate unit activation for the turns instead but that means reworking the game from scratch for better balance.

>>47545302
Can you imagine the Taufag temper tantrums we'd see if assault was made competitive?

>>47545270
agree with most of this,. but not the 'everything can charge with 2d6'.
Includes too much, and when you get stuff like non-scatter DS and drop pods, the lose of reliability in charge range doesn't matter.

Make it disordered charge as well, and not include everything. DS, outflank, other forms of coming from reserves okay. Non-assault vehicles, running and summoning not okay.

>>47545347
I would assume it would work great for any melee unit. Why did they ever get rid of this rule? GW being GW?

>>47545417
>How come tau don't have any good melee units!
>This is stupid!
>Fucking OP Melee armies

>>47545282
>>47545322
>>47545302
>Space Marines can be sweeped.

1) Is sicarius worth it?
2) What point levels does he excel in?

>>47545302
You fought a whole new assault phase if you consolidated into enemies?
Did you get charge bonuses if you rolled into another unit?

If both were true then that is mega stupid, but otherwise I can't see why it would bexpect so bad

>>47545413
Hidden Power Axes that can't be challenged isn't a bug it's a feature.

Odd squad sizes only applies to the one squad the HQs pod with as the other two are rolling ten deep.

Crusaders were taken in full sized Squads to ensure they couldn't be wiped out too easilly, and the full sized ASM and Dev Squads combat squad to spread the love.

Also even if I drop the hammer on their linesnthe Crusaders can hit other parts of the board, or be deployed and their empty pod get dropped.

There is flexibility there, you just need to consider more than the obvious strategy based on table layout, enemy type and if they brought the kind of weapons that can properly threaten 60 Marines the turn they drop.

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>>47545417

Just give Kroots his old stats again. Maybe train Breachers into close combat with tasers and gas weapons as well.

>>47545451
hmm perhaps a change to 'and they shall know no fear' would be they take d3 hits if they lose combat?

>>47545476
i have no sympathy for gunlines but yeah that's what happened

>>47545370
if you had pistols sure. letting units assault from transports would help a lot. maybe assault ramps/open topped give 6+2d6

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>>47545102
Tau being OP is acceptable. 40k isnt balanced, there are haves, and there are have nots.

The problem with Tau is that ~95% of the people that play them are waac faggots - in denial of the fact they are waac. And nearly all of them somehow manage to convince themselves that their codex isnt easy as shit to use; and that Tau are 'mid-tier'.

This is why they are hated far more than Eldar, WarConvo, Necron Decurion/Wraith, and SM grav spamming formation tards. Tau attract the worst people our hobby has.

>>47545417
Well then they need to "git gud" instead of relying on their codex alone to save their weaksauce asses.

I've spent seven years playing Sisters and have learned a lot about playing smarter since the Army lacks a lot of those easy win options. I don't think everyone should do the same but they should learn how to do more than randomly shoot shit and hope to win.

>>47545476
in 4e if you consolidated into another enemy unit they would be considered in combat but would only resolve the combat starting the next turn

>>47545448
Tau should really have a halfway decent melee xenos unit option in the codex.

That or make Kroot suck less.

>>47545524
Fearless should take extra wounds for not retreating as well then.

>>47545544
>Tau attract the worst people our hobby has.

This so hard. I don't get how retarded you have to be to have such powerful stuff and
>ask for models to be buffed
>call people whiners when they dont agree
>"T-B-H F-A-M could have been a 20 star general irl."

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>>47545568

Tarellians.

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>>47545417
Glorious.
>>47545448
>>47545551
Smack them. How likely is that one CSM is going to beat a Riptide to death with his rusty Chainsword? Exactly.

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>>47545568

>>47545568
Fine, but all your weapon upgrades now cost 5 points more on everything. Or, your weapons all drop in AP.

>>47545585
sure, i already do that for daemons. sure it usually ends badly but daemons aren't made for losing or extended combat

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>>47545568

>>47545585
whatever, right now ATSKNF is better fearless. You can go to ground if you want, retreat from combats you can't win, without risk, then shoot and charge the next round.

>>47541517
They are summoned by the sacrafice of one thousand Ork souls, castrated guardsmen genitals moistened by Ork tears.

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>>47545589

>>47545568
Fine. Here's the monkey's paw. They're all experimental weapons that hot the more they're used, and when they explode it buffs the nearest enemy unit.

So when is 8th coming out?
It was 2 years between 6th and 7th
It's been 2 years since 7th
Maybe next year?

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>>47541517
Nothing about Tau is metal anon.
Tau are the antithesis of metal. Not spewing Tau hate, or being facetious. Tau are just not metal in any way, shape, or form.

>>47545609
I meant a unit option. Likely as an elite or heavy support to make them have to choose over their other choices. And I by good I means WS4 and a 4+.

I think we should replace psyking with powers that act like shooting, but get hot on a roll equal to the warp charge or less. 3- gets hot for warp charge 3, etc.

>>47545706
why? Where is the. motivation for this coming from?

>>47545673
Probably Q3 2017.
Unless this summers annual report is a catastrophe. Then we might see it rushed out earlier.
But if you look at stuff like Angels of Death, the Ork and CSM supplements, DftS, the new SM psychic powers.... Is there really any reason at all to look forward to a new edition? Do you honestly expect to see improvements?

>>47545673
Never. GW figured out they can make more money by selling supplements ad nauseam than actually writing better rules.

>>47545733
probably a tau player

Thinking of Tau I never got why they don't have more varied xenos allied options in their codex. I'm not saying they need to be Eldar with specialists for everything but there is definitely room for some more stuff that isn't just fish people.

>>47545746
Armor saves, assault, cover saves, blessings, assault, collate the new skies of death rules into the core book, maybe new universal detachments, assault

The published edition of the FAQ might be 8th for all we know

>>47545756
And this is a large part of why their customer base is drying up. WHFB>AoS opened a lot of peoples eyes. There are alternatives out there, and GW gave their customers the motivation to try other games out.
40k is alienating more existing players than it is drawing new ones in. They dont seem to care.

>>47545796
because the codex writers are uncreative

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>>47545801
Bro if you think they are going to make assault viable you are in for a reality check. Look at the faq's ffs. They cant even improve on the clusterfuck they have. You really think they'll manage to fix anything significant? Are you new?

>>47545505
Power weapons on A1 models are a waste of points. The Emperor's Champion does nothing. Helbrecht gets his ass handed to him by anything with a powerfist and a 2+. Full-size dev squads only actually help against interceptor fire. After the first turn, they make themselves useless due to being the only thing in your army not trying to be in assault.

What do you do if you're playing against another DS heavy army (drop marines, GK), a vehicle-heavy list, a knight list, anything with a large fortification, or anything that actually wants to be in melee? How about the stranger armies, like daemons? Nearly all of your upgrades are wasted against that entire codex. At that point, you're just 60 dudes with bolters and/or bolt pistols.

Again, I'm not saying that it's incapable of working, only that you're severely overestimating its potential. It's in an awkward place where it would likely get just as badly steamrolled by a properly built competitive list as it will destroy a casual one. It's also not going to be fun to play, or to play against.

>>47545825
Model teams should be blamed then too.

>>47545818
>They dont seem to care.
This is what amazes me. GW upper management seems to care SO MUCH about money, yet they find all the wrong ways to go about making it. This company just makes no fucking sense.

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>>47545796

I think they lost the interest with the arrival of the Vespids. Look how cool are these! Then people saw the stats and nobody bought them.

They probably believe that Tau players want to play just Tau and Kroot.

>>47545862
Made Sisters less bad so it's not ALL bad. Plus the final versions may fix what is contested in the drafts.

>>47545796
Because battlesuits sell better.

>>47545862
If it's an edition change there's very little to stop them from making changes at the scale of "assault is now 6+D6" or you get your initiative as a bonus charge distance.

Is it going to be a sweeping reconstruction of the rules both in terms of clarification and balance? Probably not, but there are some obvious fixes that you can always pack and ship easily and to satisfy the unwashed masses

>>47545894
Yeah. If Vespid had done a bit better we'd probably see more auxiliaries.

>>47545883
and they are also at fault
FW is the only group legally involved in 40k that tries to put out fresh new ideas in-line with lore with rules and models, see: the trygon family, they were once a FW exclusive model and now they're in the nid codex
shit like that you don't see GW doing often enough to matter any

>>47545909
>initiative bonus to charge distance
>orks somehow manage to get fucked yet again
>fucking eldar running around, pulling off first-turn charges
>nothing with Slaanesh in the name is even capable of failing a charge

This is the future that you chose.

>>47545926
>they were once a FW exclusive model
trygons are from epic and later armorcast

As a self-conscious Tau player, these kinda threads actually instilled within me a fucking fear of being called out IRL. I mean I don't have a problem with my lists as I've never been interested in WAACfaggotry or even most suits. I play foot infantry but wow, to think a thread full of, what boils down to be, stranger's texts have affected me so.That i actually worry about someone calling me shit if i turn up and say "I play Tau". It's ridiculous.

And you know what, it's not any of your faults. Sure you can be a bunch of minmaxing cunts who go "Why aren't you using these units?" when someone suggests a casual theme list like you can't physically comprehend why aren't you spending 700 euros on powerful units, but you all are just speaking from bad experiences with utter douchecanoes of players (and some of you talk out your asses but let's ignore that).

My fellow Tau players caused this shit, which only makes me hate WAACfaggotry even more for putting a big stain on my favourite army.

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>>47545944
Glory to the dark prince

and if orks get fucked over it's practically canon already

>>47545885
Instead of trying to create a quality product that will build the foundations for a long term and loyal playerbase - they have decided to use not-so-clever bullshit designed to sell kits.

This isnt 1998. The market is flooded with options, and more keep popping up all the time. If GW believes the worst rules + balance in tabletop gaming is what they should hang their hat on, they will continue to shrink.

They just arent scared enough yet to face the music. The next couple years will be interesting to watch. Im curious to see if they'll acknowledge the issues they have, or if they'll remain willfully ignorant and stubborn as they flounder and sink.

>>47545871
Emperor's Champion takes challenges so Helbretch can mow Squads. He's also S7,AP2 at initiative on the charge.

2 attacks for Power Weapon + BP, 3 on the charge, 4 if the unit took a wound during overwatch. Yeah it might work better on the Sword Brother but with how characters like himnget locked into challenges it's becoming less useful to do so in favor of a hidden PW.

And while the Devs aren't trying to be in assault they are cracking tanks and hitting units like Crisis Suits or Riptides. They still serve a purpose even if they aren't punching shit turn one.

And none of your "what-ifs" currently apply to my local meta. I don't play in the national tournament scene and because of that the local meta tends to allow for some creative lists that can still challenge this build without either side outright cheesing the other.

>>47545818
>>47545885
except of course that it isn't true.
The new GW management has said that they have a. goal of expanding their market base by increasing the variety of products (board games, video games etc), increased ease of entry (getting started kits, snap fit kits), increased visibility (products like the above in stuff like Hobby Lobby and other non-gaming stores), and increased availability by working with more venders.

Almost all. of the above represents a shift in strategy. It's just new, so you haven't seen all the results of this yet.

But consider this. GW is a company that shut down it's own forums because it couldn't be bothered to listen to it's community. Now they've set up a Facebook page and presented the drafts for their FAQs for community review and comment. So we have clear evidence of a change in management policy.

>>47545966
The thing I hate the most is that /tg/ complains endlessly about WAAC tau lists, but whenever a new player asking for advice on them shows up, they immediatly call everything but suit-spam garbage and just tell people to buy Riptides and plasma crisis teams.

>>47545894
>>47545922

What if they put Vespids in the Troops section?

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>>47546066

Too late, we have Breachers now. They need to fill a different role or remove Breachers.

>>47545966
Ive seen you post here before bro, and I like you. I genuinely feel bad for you, because you seem like a good sport with good intentions.

If someone irl runs their mouth at you before bothering to see your army, or talk to you for 5 minutes, theyre probably a douche. It may or may not happen, but dont let it worry you. If you're a bro, other bros will bro up with you. Just be yourself and it'll be fine.

Can I add an auxiliary formation to my CAD?

The thing I hate the most is that /tg/ shitposters complain endlessly about how tau aren't op, but whenever a player shows up and says that markerlights should be nerfed, they immediately call everyone whiners and that tau without markerlight is just guard with better guns and just tell everyone that Tau is actually a mid tier army and Spacemarines are the most OP army that needs to be removed.

>>47546051
It's a well known fact that /tg/ is bipolar and partially retarded like that.

>>47546066
thing is, vespid are good and they're in a relatively unfilled section (FA)

the hangup is miniatures

>>47546123

Yes. You just don't have the benefit of your Decurion. You can even bring the formation alone.

>>47546042
I am a pessimistic faggot that still thinks that they will fuck us, but, that last point you made is a very, very strong one and I can't help myself but see the optimism in it.

>>47546051
Maybe its other Tau waacfags making those suggestions? I seriously doubt anon that hates Tau faggotry is going to suggest an all suit list. There are more than a few suit spamming faggots on this board, its likely them.

>>47546150
Decurion? You mean the bonus the units from the formation get?

Can I get away with putting a captain without terminator armour in a termie squad?

>>47546026
The Emperor's Champion loses to a captain with a power fist. Four attacks on the charge yields about one wound against equal WS and T4. You're right about SB, but that's irrelevant. Melee special weapons belong on units that can make the most of them and not pay through the fucking teeth. The fire priority of your devastators means that there should be very little of merit to shoot at after first turn.

Your local meta does matter a lot. If none of those things I mentioned exist, they're obviously not a problem. That does not change what I see as the fundamental problem. Whenever you stake an entire army on a single-turn gimmick (face it, this is one), you are going to have all of your games determined first turn. This is fun for absolutely no one. Pretty much all armies are going to fall into two categories: things that shrug this off entirely and things that lose automatically, assuming you're not rolling d4s instead of d6s. You have two units of grav cannons and two assault squads. Four enemy units are going to be either removed or in combat at the beginning of the first turn. Assuming that you're playing smart, this is probably going to be their four best units. No one is going to want to play against a list that plays like that. It shouldn't even be fun for you, not after you've played it a couple times.

>>47546066
>>47546097
Vespid as Troops would actually still fill a role compared to breachers, mainly as fast objective holders with better range. It gives them a nice boost without having to change them too much.

Still not high-tier competitive or anything, but more in-line with the other options in the book.

>>47546051

One of the things I've seen for Tau on here is that many here say you really can't go wrong with their codex and to be mindful that everything is good, but some are better than others.

I do see them suggesting Suit spam, but I assumed that was because that was what draws a lot of people to the Tau.

>>47546172

Auxiliary formations have their own bonuses that apply to every unit in the formation. Then you have "Decurions" which are a Core Formation and a bunch of Auxiliary ones. If you bring a core + auxiliary compatible, then you get a Decurion bonus on top of each formation's bonus.

>>47546166
I hardly believe it. Sometimes it just feels like the only people talking about Tau are people baiting with obviously WAAC tau lists and the Tau haters who keep biting.

>>47546042
New GW management has given us some cause to be hopeful. Theyve also given us:

>Death from the Skies
>CSM supplement re-release
>Ork supplement re-release
>Angels of Death
>new SM psychic garbage
>Tau supplement

If we are expected to interpret positive moves as a good sign, then should we also take these releases as a sign that rules and balance are meaningless and have no place in 40k? Because thats a big problem for GW right now, and making strong armies stronger while simultaneously saying fuck you to weak armies doesnt scream improvements are coming.

>>47546221
Even if you want an all suit force, there are plenty more ways to do it.

I will agree that you can't go wrong with Tau though. I've made a list entirely from rolling dice for each option and it was still a solid list.

>>47546239
They don't seem to be in the SM codex. I'm guessing it's some sort of splat books that have these?

>>47546214
I have two units of Grav, two units of Multi-melta and four units of assault Marines. Don't forget combat Squads.

>>47546244
I wouldn't be surprised. The only people with the patience and interest in talking about Tau are the people with a strong enough opinion to not mind the constant shit storm. Chances are, Tau players tend to be slightly more cuntish than everyone else, leading to a poor reputation. This poor reputation expands on the internet, where we scream at anyone who disagrees until they give up. After a while, the only people willing to talk about Tau are their strongest defenders and opponents, who personify their respective camps. Tau players on /tg/ are insufferable cunts and their opponents are people who want the faction retconned. Anyone in the middle ground is assaulted by both sides. Then you add the trolls and everything gets more complicated.

>>47546278
You can throw darts at the tau codex and make a list better than or as good as anything Orks, CSM, GK, BA, SoB, DE can field.

>>47546116
I think there are like 2 other Tau players who I recognize post here with foot infantry and/or sneakysneaky lists. Says a lot about the state of the WAAC shit when you can point an Anon out, huh?

Yeah don't worry, that's how I operate. I play for fun and I want both me and my opponent to have fun. I'm not playing against a buzzkill, I'm playing a GAME afterall. If I wanted to spend my free time hearing incessant complaints, I'd ask for more overtime!

>>47546051
This too, it's really frustrating. but in their defence, this anon >>47546166 has the right of it too. Credit where credit is due.

>>47546295

You have one. It's called Gladius Strike Force. There are also formation for specific Space Marine Chapters and other codices.

>>47546362
Speaking of Gladius. I've been using it to great success. Does it have any weaknesses? In maelstrom games, I can just cap points and shoot with lasbacks all day.

>>47546278
There are ways to field a suit list that arent full blown faggotry. A CAD. But how many Taufaggots do you know that are willing to do that? I dont know any. All the Taufags I know played Taudar gunlines in 6th, and play Stormsurge Riptide Wing Farsight Enclave OSC formation shit. Weebs just value winning and their own experience too much to ever consider that their opponent would also like to have fun.

>>47546296
That really only makes it worse, though. You're basically playing a non-squishy Deldar at this point. Every unit wipes its target unless there are no good targets for it. Since everyone is in a drop pod, your opponent has pretty much no way to actually fight against the list tactically. The result is determined before you even get your dice out. The only recourse your opponent has if he wants to actually play a game is to put as much as possible into reserve and try to shoot you off the board.

If you really are trying to just build a fun list, I would suggest building a list that is actually fun for either of you. I cannot see that being the case here.

>>47546407
The Retribution Cadre is fine, stop being ass blasted.

>>47546407
>Weebs just value winning and their own experience too much to ever consider that their opponent would also like to have fun.
To be fair, this problem is the cancer of any gaming community, tabletop or otherwise. This is like griefers in MMOs who don't even give you a chance to load screen before you login to your corpse and some guy teabagging it.

That fundamental selfishness and inconsiderate attitude is the root of cancer.

>>47546266
well a few reasons for this.
First: Those releases were in the works for at. least a year, so the change in a management wouldn't have shown up there.

Second: Those are failures in execution rather than in style and intent. New supplements and releases with updates aren't inherently bad, they were just badly done.

To fix the execution, they need to start outside play testing and listening to outside input. There has been evidence of this increase in openness, but it takes time for that to work it's way down to finished products.

So realistically, the change in style and openness should make us hopeful, and the bad releases don't necessarily count against it, but in that same way,. we shouldn't expect this change in style to result in major improvement in release execution for at least another 6 months, even years.

It's a move in the right direction, not crossing any sort of finish line.

>>47546278

>Even if you want an all suit force, there are plenty more ways to do it.

I agree with that notion.

I like the idea of it myself.

It's no different in theme than Nidzilla or the Ghost Army or the Dread Mob to me.

That being said, I prefer to see things like the Stealth Suits, Crisis Suits and Broadside's in abundance and not the Riptide Wing and Double Storm Surge all over the place.


As much as some would imply the Riptide spam and Storm Surge spam is fluffy and lore accurate, I've only seen the Tau themselves do that when it actually warrants it, like when facing mass fortifications, tank armies and mass Super-Heavies like a Knight House.

>>47546385
6 Tac squads is a lot of deadweight in terms of killyness
Where other top-tier armies are there because of durability, damage output or psychic potential, Gladius relies on a massive number of ObSec units and free transports enabling you to fit in goodies an army with 8-12 transports otherwise could only dream of

>>47546455
The thing that bothers me is GW's wildly inconsistent willingness to overhaul. They had a chance to really put Orks into something that resembles a competitive tier, yet chose to do almost nothing and publish the same book but with a different cover. Then they invent a whole new phase that no one asked for. What they need, more than anything else, is someone to sit down and direct priorities. They don't even need to listen to the community. A single person who actually plays the fucking game would have no problem setting a rough order of priority that most players would broadly agree with.

I added a bunch of stuff to my rules update on dakka dakka. Still trying to figure out how hard I should nerf Eldar. (Took care of scatterbikes, wraithguard and wraithknights, but what else?)

>>47544165
It is in the rules though anon

>>47546431
So you do see the lists teeth then.

Fair enough. Problem is the list I want to play is Blacktide but it's worthless in this edition.

I'll think of something eventually I suppose.

>>47546538
assuming they aren't tau or eldar players

>>47546538
Only thing they added that was new was dogfigts which aren't even a seperate phase. Psychic phases was something we had, lost and then regained.

>>47545544
Ah, so it's a good thing I stopped playing Tau years ago then, back when kroot stopped being fun.

>>47546323
Yep. That's exactly what I did. I rolled, and got Farsight, Breachers, Vespid, Sniper drones, and a lone ghostkeel.

Then I asked if it was a fair matchup with Orks, and I was informed it was still pretty strong relative to them.

>>47546552
link?

>>47546552
Warpspiders next. Up their point values

>leaving store
>guy comes in with a box
>look over to see what came in
>a space marine heroes box
>bought that shit immediately

so what kind of squad do i want to attach a non-jump chaplain to?

SHould I bother getting into 40k now or just wait for 8th if its coming out in a years time cause I dont wanna spend £100 on books just for them to be obsolete after a year

>>47546623
What army do you want to play?

>>47546552
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/692325.page#8688442

I already did warpspiders, i made their ability once per turn.

>>47546538
>someone to sit down and direct priorities
if they don't listen to the community, or at least their vendors, how would they be able know the proper priories to set?

Information is needed before strong decision making will result in anything good.

>>47546601
maybe, but better would be to make their flickering be only 1d6 and they still remove a model on a 1.
That way it's more of a desperate act rather than a reliable way to avoid all enemy shooting.

What if next edition had rules for "unexplained, battlesuit malfunctions" for Tau? Let's say the AI is becoming self aware/corrupted by Chaos, and the suits either explode or turn on their allies? Would that cause more problems, or actually be okay?

>>47546560
Yeah, I got where you were going with it. I never said it wasn't good, only that it wasn't what I thought you were claiming it to be. You're still going to get your ass handed to you by a lot of serious tournament lists, but no one gives a fuck. The way you phrased it at the start made me think that you expected it to win against everything.

As a fellow BT player, I feel your pain. I haven't played them since the 7th edition codex came out because I have no idea what to do. I've traditionally run a very old fashioned melee army because it's what the 4th edition book wanted us to do. Footslogging was not only fun, but also actually worked. I mostly got by through 6th by just being the most aggressive player in my group. As it turns out, list quality is largely irrelevant if your opponent is scared shitless of the guy who doesn't seem to care about losing 60% of his army in a single turn of shooting. In my entire career in 40k, I have only ever won one game by points. Every other game ended in tabling or surrender.

At this point, I'm totally lost. Our formation system doesn't actually work for Templars and isn't fun anyway. Melee units suck and everyone has way too much AP2. Our characters (outside of Grimaldus) suck. We're incapable of fighting psykers. At this point, I'm just working on my other armies until I figure out what the fuck to do. It's not that we can't be good. It's that we can't be good and fun at the same time.

Besides rulebooks, does anyone have any suggested reading for a new/inexperienced player to prepare for a tournament?

>>47546680
really? I thought people liked once per turn better. I originally had it at 1d6, but somebody said that would make it useless.

>>47546648
They have someone doing that already. It's Bob from accounting. He hates fantasy/sci-fi games, has no social skills, marketing skills, or business sense. But he does love money, and replied with 'yes' to anything Tom Kirby said.

>>47546680
nah, just make it on any doubles, rather than double 1s, and only once per turn

>>47546685
A lot of Tau players will just drop the army the moment they have to face any adversity.

>>47546716
>As it turns out, list quality is largely irrelevant if your opponent is scared shitless of the guy who doesn't seem to care about losing 60% of his army in a single turn of shooting.
That's riding the Ironfire right there.

>>47546716
I have the same feeling as a Sisters ayer honestly. Tactics and playing missions were all that won me games since 6th started and Templars are the only Marine chapter I'd want to actually build and play.

I'm lost on how to spice things up and make the game enjoyable as it used to be for me.

>>47537541
I just started playing but i got a handful of cultists in my kit, they're really good at tying up enemy forces for flanking or stopping bikes from speeding around my shit, so thanks for that cultist lads.

>>47546648
I don't think that this is nearly as complicated as you are making it out to be. They don't need real community feedback. They just need to talk to ONE GUY who has actually played the game. Everyone agrees that the balance is shit. Tiers are well established. There may be some quabbling about the absolute top and bottom, but we all know where the armies lie. Even people who never ever talk about 40k on the internet see the same things and bitch about the same units. That alone would give them a place to start.

>>47546636
>Give Pyrovores S6 AP3 Torrent
>Give Warriors and Pyrovores T5
Yes. YES. THIS PLEASES THE HIVEMIND.

>>47546685
How about instead of making armies randomly shoot themselves in the foot, you just fix Orks and Chaos so they don't randomly shoot themselves in the foot?

No reason for everyone to be doing it when it's already a hated mechanic on every army that has it. Bringing Tau down won't magically fix everything.

>>47546792
Orks shooting themselves in the foot was originally supposed to offset how much damage they could do. It's since devolved from there.

>>47546636
wraithguards problem isn't the pointcost. It's the d-scythe being good against everything. Old distort rule. There done.

Scatterbikes being FA helps, but the real problem is spamming the heavy weapons. 1 per 3 like in the old codex. This is better than the points increase. Scatters should be at most 5pts more than cannons, they are better but not that much. Moving on.

The buffs aren't something even wanted. Leave them out. Actual needed buff, Shining Spears have hit and run.

Personally I agree on AP2 being to common. Make Bladestorm cause AP3.

This is coming from an eldar player.

>>47546782
I don't know about that.

Ideally, you'd want somebody who plays a midtier list. Somebody who plays a high tier list probably will say "buff everything" and somebody who plays a low tier will say "nerf everything".

>>47546754
>>47546792
On the plus side we got rid of WAAC Tau players, but they only stop playing Tau. Probably the non-WAAC players would suffer from that. A less extreme option would probably be that the suit stops working for a few turns, or in fluff has to be towed off the battlefield.

>>47546685
If I were to suggest an actual change for Tau battlesuits to make them weaker, it would be making them more vulnerable to things with Armourbane, Melta, and Haywire, possibly giving those things Shred against them or some other benefit to make them more threatening.

>>47546685

>Chaos
>Tau

Please, don't mix these two together.

>>47546782
>actually played that game.
Against a large number of players, from the community.
Because, here's the bit that's going to surprise you, they do play the game. But only against each other, so the 'game' they play depends upon how that small number of people play. Do not underestimate how distorted an closed meta can get from the normal game state.

That's why they need a voice from outside of their little box. All your saying is that if that voice gets channeled through one person it would still work

>>47546825
Eldar players are currently a very powerful minority. Taking away their favorite toys will cause them to shriek bloody murder, but upping the point cost will seem like a more reasonable compromise.

I'd like to take D weapons away myself, but I think Eldar players would lose their shit.

>>47546792
https://youtu.be/y5AmbNI0hJM?t=9m54s

>>47546782
What blows my mind is this community accepted narrative that no one at GW is aware of how bad the rules and balance are. That is quite a leap of faith.

The question should be, how and why are the rules and balance so bad? Because pretending no one in their studio knows the game sucks is just ridiculous. They know.

>>47546886
Idk man, most of the Eldar players in my community either quit entirely, or play other armies ever since that absurd update.

>>47546864
That is probably more reasonable.
>>47546876
What's the worst that could happen?

>>47546886
Who cares what eldar players will do. They have had the exclusive rank of an SS+ tier army for too long.

>>47546912
Its possible that none of them play the game anymore, and are purely business people who own something that is making them money.

>>47546886
Did you miss the bit where I'm an eldar player?

I'm aspect dar, but there is a wraithdar player, and you know what he wants? to be able to play his wraiths. To not have them be so powerful they shit on everyone, but not be so expensive he can't put them on the field.

D-scythe guard can't be fixed at point cost that lets them be fielded as even 2 units, and the current weapon. Cannon-guard aren't really a problem, and will still do what they would be doing under the old d-distort rule. Wraithknight is the only thing everyone, including eldar players, agree needs a point increase.

Jetbikes moved to FA is actually the thing most likely to piss people off, because one of the major Craftworlds was all about jetbikes, and now they can't play them. Make them 1 weapon per 3 and they can still play the army they may have built and painted years ago, but now can't do the stupid spamming that is the source of the problem.

You really are missing what would make actual Eldar players, rather than WAAC flavor of the month players, lose there shit.

What percent of balance problems are caused by armies not matching their fluff?

For example, Tau play nothing like you'd expect. They're a static long range gunline when they're meant to be a mobile, flexible, ranged ambush force.

well, i'm trying to get this rules list update to form a petition, but I am encountering a lot of opposition and can't seem to come to any kind of consensus. (i'm only really doing it for fun, mostly)

Detractors carry a lot a weight and and they tend to create a domino effect, its much harder to get some positive changes going. I try to listen to feedback but some players are just dumb and others are so biased they are talking out their ass most of the time, so its kind of hard to know who to take seriously.

The most important thing is not to change the models, because thats not a decision you can make at our level.

>>47544028
Incorrect.

Especially since the Swarmlord singled out and dueled Marneus Calgar

>>47546878
That may well be true. I suppose that I may have a slightly skewed perspective on the competence of a meta. I have never played against someone that wasn't a scientist or engineer. Most of us are also game designers. Finding flaws in things is literally our job. It's easy to forget that a sufficiently isolated meta of people who don't compulsively look for mistakes and loopholes could be pretty fucked up.

>>47546912
I don't think that they don't know now, but I do honestly believe that they don't know how shitty their rules are until they are published. There is no other sane explanation. They could conceivably profit by alternating which armies are on top. They gain nothing by instituting poor internal balance and constantly shitting on a small number of armies (except Sisters, for whom a proper update could well cost them money). I believe that they do not plan at all. How else do you explain the discrepancy among 7th edition codexes? The early codexes may as well be in a different edition. At least in 5th, with all of its hideous imbalance, there was a sense that the codexes were compatible. That simply is not the case anymore. The abrupt change from codex-specific FO to decurion-style detachments was gamebreaking and ill planned. Looking at what they've made, they have to know that they fucked up, but I cannot believe that they realized what they were doing at the time.

>>47546685
It is never fun to have your models not listen to you. That's a terrible mechanic.

>>47546987
Tau fluff is that they are a small race going against evil bad guys and are able to pull off winning by having invented newer, better toys or being more skilled and are able to devise the best strategies.

>>47546985
I would suggest making it so troop jetbikes can't take all special weapons, and you could have a fast attack version that could have multiples.

At the very least, having an HQ choice to make jetbikes troops wouldn't be out of the question.

>>47546989
Dont try to fix the rules yourself, that will meet opposition. Just a simple petition asking GW to improve rules and balance would probably be most effective. Especially if you could get 100,000+ signatures. Which is doable, but you'd have to work at it.

>>47546987
> mobile, flexible, ranged ambush force

That's how my Tau play.

File: Tau-Warp-Presence.png (184KB, 973x168px) Image search: [Google]

184KB, 973x168px

>>47546948

Not much. Daemons have nothing to gain from the Tau.

>>47546985
I didn't mean any offense, but you are kind of the exception.

The general consensus is that wraithknights need a point increase. There isn't much debate about what nerfs to apply or why.

Scyth guard are a problem, I thought about maybe decreasing the minimum troop to 3 and the max to 5.

Changing the weapon template statline would probably work, but I don't think you could arrive at a consensus of what they should be. (for example, a S10 AP2 template is in some ways much worse than a D weapon because at least a D weapon lets you make saves most of the time)

>>47546987
Gameplay and Story Segregation/Integration. Tau in the fluff are a mobile, flexible, ranged ambush force. Or at least their main tactics revolve more around that and you CAN play the Tau like that easily. Half the codex has a jetpack and can JSJ. You have long range weapons everywhere, you have 2 sniper units both with stealth and mobility as rules.

But not everyone likes that gameplay style but still like the aesthetic, so you make your list differently. Space Marines don't usually field 200 footslogging marines across an open plain with no other backup, but you can do that if that's what you feel like.

>>47546987
None of the balance problems are actually caused by that, but nearly all of the playability problems are. You can totally play a 100% fluffy list for any codex in the game. Some will be horrible, while others are going to beat tournament lists. Making the armies match their fluff won't help balance, but it will make the game more playable and fun.

I'd appreciate if you posted in dakka dakka as well as here, so I can show there are some support for these opinions.

>>47547032
>you could have a fast attack version that could have multiples.
that could work, though I'd almost want them to be a new aspect shrine by then, but at that point shining spears start to look even worse than they do right now.

>>47547091
I just opened the thread so I have no idea what the context of this post is, but I can only assume we've reached record high levels of autism.

>>47547091
Nah, dakkadakka sucks man. The moderators are heavy handed fanboys, and the regulars are bullies that chase anyone they disagree with off. Their gallery is cool, but their boards are garbage.

>>47547067
How about making it so Scytheguard only make a single flamer attack for the whole unit, but get a bonus to it based on how many are in the squad.

If there's just 1, it's a D attack with -4 to the roll. Then it goes up to 2 with a -3, 3 with a -2, 4 with a -1, and 5 for a single normal D flamer. Then if the squad gets any larger you basically just add a second template that does the same thing, so at best you get 2 D flamers.

>>47547067
When do D weapons allow you saves that S 10 AP 2 doesn't?

Aren't all D weapons AP 2?

>>47547067
>Changing the weapon template statline would probably work, but I don't think you could arrive at a consensus of what they should be.
There is a consensus
it's S4 AP2 6s are instant death and auto pen.

>>47547157
They aren't technically AP2, but they do all ignore armor saves. I have no idea what that guy's going on about. The only thing that prefers D to S10 is piddly shit like land speeders who have to pray that the D rolls a 1 to not get annihilated by a stiff breeze.

>>47547117
I actually think that Eldar should have a bit of divide between the standard guardians, veteran guardians, and aspect warriors.

Eldar Guardians being BS 3 worked, because those were literally just civilians who were on-par with trained human soldiers as a baseline. Then you can add in veteran guardians, who are more experienced on the path of war and thus are closer to standard soldiers, being BS 4. This would be the Fast Attack windriders with special guns, and maybe also Elite versions of normal Guardians with better armor.

There's a lot of ways you could divide it up.

>>47547157
>>47547196
you're both wrong, but so is he.
Inherently, D weapons aren't any sort of AP or ignore armor save, but all examples of them are either AP2 or AP1.

Also, for instant death by double S, they count as S10, so there is that too.

>>47547064
But daemons love to make people's lives horrible.

>>47547067
>D weapon lets you make saves most of the time

Get off your drugs.

>>47547091

sorry, the link again.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/692325.page#8688442