/cofd/&/wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness General

>>47442665
A lich isn't an immortal Mage. A lich is a Mage who achieved immortality through abhorrent, hubristic ways.

>>47442717
Really says a lot about the Tremere then, doesn't it?

>>47442701
>Because almost every route involves doing harm to others, or turns you into something less than human that ultimately drives you crazy
Okay. For example, how does turning oneself into spirit or Temenos mage harm others? Or weaving Life-prolonging spells into a body?

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>>47442701
>favorite antagonists
Gay Pure.

>>47442776
See
>>47442743

>Favorite antagonists?
Demons from hunter perspective.

>>47442751
Tremere are Reaper Lich Banishers.

>>47442776
>or turns you into something less than human that ultimately drives you crazy
I believe you also can't sustain yourself on Life spells alone.

>>47442701
I love the Seers, honestly. So willing to throw away they're freedom for luxury or fake power.

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>>47442665
>The only thing that a Lich will not do is give in to death. For all his posturing, the real drive that forces a Lich to stave off the end is simple fear. Humans can learn to accept death, but a Lich lives in constant fear of his magic failing and the reaper catching up.

Avoiding death makes you do stupid, evil shit.

Death is only the enemy of the stupid.

>>47442787
When I don't understand that's wrong with seeking immortality in general. Core says that it's essentially fear of death, but that's doesn't sound right.

>>47442798
>An inexperienced mage may use indefinite Life and Death spells to stave off the end, often using cars or tattoos as Yantras to bind the magic into his body.

You can be a Centimani for a while before returning on the Pilgrimage. And being human is okay for almost everyone, since our benevolent lords have made it easy for mortals to prosper.
>>47442701
>favorite antagonists
Mages. Fuck Mages. And Werewolves. Fuck them too.

>>47442701
>Favorite antagonists?
Hunters.

>>47442832
>antagonists?
>Hunters.

Them's dead monster words

>>47442701
>Favorite antagonists?
I prefer crazy spirits, ghosts and spells gone rogue. I also always use line antags when I don't crossover.

>>47442828
I said "I believe you also can't sustain yourself on Life spells alone".
For instance, if those tattoos get bruised, the spell ends.

>>47442861
Well, the trick is not getting them bruised or destroyed then. It's not a perfect use, but certainly harmless to everyone else.

>>47442861
Immortality is bad. Just look at vampires.

>>47442861
That's why time magic is better for extending your life than, well, life.

>>47442888
But Purified are awesome

>>47442861
You can write a portrait of yourself and keep it like pretentious fuck you are.

>>47442900
That's why they're not going to get a 2e update.

>>47442887
And what are you going to do to ensure your tattoos remain unmolested?

You can't just focus you magic inwards, you'll have to keep people away entirely somehow and make others think twice about trying - driving them mad or turning them into stone seems solid.

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>>47442916
>That's why they're not going to get a 2e update

>>47442913
But then you'll eventually see how hideous and horrible the portrait is and try to stab it, then everyone comes into your study and finds a handsome portrait of you with a dead gross old goblin in front of it.

>>47442929
You don't have to have books with rules for them, because you can just do it yourself easily.

>>47442957
I already have, but it still hurts

>>47442929
>>47442916
>>47442900
I will never understand why people are so in love with Purified, and I'll never understand why people feel playing them in 2e would be so difficult. They've never seemed interesting to me. They're one of those things that has all of this fluff that says how difficult it would be to play one in the party, or to have a character that wants to become one as a character concept.

>>47442919
>And what are you going to do to ensure your tattoos remain unmolested?
Making my skin steel hard would help.

>You can't just focus you magic inwards
Sure you can. Most elderly people seclude in one degree or another; and mages have a fuckton of ways to be utterly independent of the world. And you always can pursue Imperial Mysteries to keep yourself busy and no bored.

>>47442968
>and mages have a fuckton of ways to be utterly independent of the world

And cabals exist because that road leads diretly to Wisdom Zero-town

>>47442777
>antagonists

>>47442984
having a cabal has anything to do with wisdom?

>>47443002
Solo mages go mad

>>47443013
Since when? And how do they do?

>>47443013
Solo Mages don't go Mad
Solo Mages get ganked
Cabals exist because the Wise Mage realizes that they can't defend themselves from everything, so they group up with some other Mages to cover each other's backs.

>>47443113
>he Wise Mage realizes that they can't defend themselves from everything
that's more of a low wisdom paranoid mage thing
there's no special danger in being a solitary
and there's no guarantee cabalmates are going to cover your back

>>47443167
No, but a lone Thyrsus is gonna have partial incentive to join a cabal with non-Thyrsoi because they're going to be good at the things he isn't and the wise mage knows that it's better to have friends who are good at the things you aren't, so you don't have to go around sucking dicks to get info on something that falls outside your Path.

>>47443252
>t a lone Thyrsus is gonna have partial incentive to join a cabal with non-Thyrsoi because they're going to be good at the things he isn't
first of all, the idea that mages want to or need to master all arcana is something that only exxists in white room arguments about them being all powerful
second, nothing keeps you from learning all the arcana you want once you got enough gnosis

>>47443002
I think the idea is that if you're going to do anything crazy Obsessive, your Cabal-mates pull you back. Being solitary doesn't necessarily make you Mad, and having friends is not always enough, but the odds shift accordingly. It's just conjecture, though.

Dark Eras is out if you don't have it already.

>>47443457
Time traveller be warned - Mage 2e is shit.

You must tell the people, lower their expectations before it's too late

>>47443468
Dark Eras just officially came out. Previously only KS backers and leeches had it.

>>47443565
>only KS backers and leeches

So everyone?

>>47443571
OP's been pirating the Pack for a while now

>>47442808
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

I'm a God-damned wizard! I'm not going to just give up the great game and gift that is life because some ancient evolutionary pressure to make way for the next generation says I should. Fight the long night, take up medicine and Life to remove the reasons for death one by one. Take up Death to better learn the enemy and defeat it through understanding. Call upon Forces and Prime and Matter to kick scarcity and entropy in the balls.

All of this 'it is wise to accept death with dignity' stuff is just Stockholm's syndrome and giving in to hopelessness.

>>47443756
All that time you spent obsessing about dying could have been spent unlocking the Imperial Practices

Liches are mugs because they're too short-sighted, they obsess over something that shouldn't even be on their radar

>>47443783
This. If you are going to die anyway, might as well risk everything to become a god.

>>47442965
I like them for the narrative use. Sure they're not super durable, but they will always keep coming back. I've folded them into my werewolf games pretty frequently as something that wolf -blooded who never change might reach for to better help their people and get past an inferiority complex.

From a player standpoint it's fun to get into the right frame of mind and the siddhi have some interesting and easily used abilities. I've been debating doing an underworld based version for use in a sin-eater game that would be able to learn ghostly numina and just swap shadow/underworld in their normal rules.

>>47443813
>siddhi

The dicepools for these are so arbitrary, what the hell were the writers on

>>47443831
Mage 2e?

>>47442701

Surprising absolutely no one, my favorite antagonists are the Deceived. They hammer home Mummy's theme of "power is a chain you wrap around yourself" so well, with literal gods living within them... and making their eternal lives a living hell.

Other special shoutouts go to pretty much any Hunter group being used as baddies in a non-Hunter game; Division Six and the Knights of St. George spice up any Mage chronicle.

>>47443898
namefags never stop being pretentious

>>47443869
What? No, they're talking about Purified Siddhi.

>>47443831
1e blue books in a nutshell. Hell, a lot of the gameline stuff.

>>47443813
But most of the people talking about Purified I've seen don't get into the frame of mind. They just see it as immortality, not a long term trying and difficult goal that involves an entire lifetime of dedication and research. They treat it as just a magical template you can be and get all these cool powers.

>>47443929
>They treat it as just a magical template you can be and get all these cool powers

That's exactly what they are.

Purified already won - they're immortal and have super-powers despite being basically still human.

It's not until the fact that they can see EVERYTHING in Twilight (and unlike Sin-Eaters, can't tun it off), they are super vulnerable to basically everything when out of their bodies, and spirits viewing them as basically a walking essence-hamburger that being starts to get on your nerves a bit.

Purified are awesome until you actually are one.

>>47443960
They're not basically still human, though. They've spent untold years trying to become Spirits. They're about as human as the Uratha.

>>47443982
>They're not basically still human, though.

They're as human as Mages.

>>47443987
No they're not. They've literally become spirit beings.

>>47444067
The're physically unchanged. If your soul being irreversibly changed makes you non-human, then how are Mages any different?

>>47444101
"Soul+" is not the same as becoming a spirit being. I don't think Purified even have Souls.

>>47444101
Sin-eaters are closer to purified than mages. And mages are still fundamentally human, they just see past the lie.

>>47444243
Wow, racist and sexist much?

Purified have souls, they're just a little loose in their bodies.

>>47444101
To be fair, Mages don't have their Souls changed. They just have Gnosis wrapped tightly around them. Still, nothing suggests Purified are transformed mentally. Living with Spirits for a couple centuries, however, is a different matter.

>>47442887
they can also get dispelled by any mage willing to try.

>>47444441
I didn't said it was the perfect way. But it beats dying in 70 years just because you was too much of a pussy to try.

>>47444498
you will be skeletonized by dissonance or your own angry wizard son/grandson. Just become a dream monster like Baphomet.

The dark eras PDF up anywhere? Can't seem to find it in the archive.

>>47444720

Go buy it.

>>47443315
I didn't say they want or need to master all arcana. I'm literally saying the opposite: They AREN'T going to Master all the arcana, and they know this, and that's why they form Cabals; so they can work with people who have Mastered the Arcana they have no plans to.

>nothing keeps you from learning all the arcana you want once you got enough gnosis
Nothing keeps you from being killed before you get dots in all the arcana, either, fampai

>>47444985
and I was saying that they'll never need access to all the arcana in the first place, trhough others or their own study

>>47445042
The mysteries they encounter are very rarely going to always be in their area of expertise.

>>47445042
A Dreamspeaker Thyrsus(Mind, Spirit, Life) is going to want the help of an Acanthus if they run into any sort of Time- or Fate-related Mystery.
Cabals form because Mages realized that having friends who can do the things you can't, in ANY situation, is valuable. Especially when you're investigating Mysterious shit.

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>>47444720

>He doesn't know about the secret website with all the WW/OP pdfs

>>47445081

Except Moros because everyone can do what the Moros do and better

>>47445221
4chan.org/tg/?

>>47444720
Pastebin. Actually, that one probably expired, because I can't be assed to upload it somewhere permanent.
https://a.uguu.se/oZs2z0QX4iyF_DarkEras.pdf

>>47442701
>Favorite antagonists?
Stuff that's tangent to the PCs' splat/powerset, but equal or weaker in terms of actual/raw power.
EG a vampire coven having to deal with a mosquito-spirit-claimed, or a werewolf pack vs a Fractal whose shenanigans are fucking up the local spiritscape.

>>47442701
>Favorite antagonists?
Angels. Everytime my ST has them show up they're that perfect mix of weird and scary.

>>47442701
>Favorite antagonists?
Creatures of the Hedge. It's a perfect excuse for anachronistic hodge-podge monsters and creatures which are both horrible and beautiful.

>>47445432
Have a bookmarked one. https://a.uguu.se/qEdmW2PGRj4M_ChroniclesofDarkness-DarkEras.pdf

>>47443813
You just gave me a plot hook idea of having a krewe go fetch a draft of the river of dead seed so a Purified exWolf-Blooded can try to help his pack out with babies.

>>47443960
I was always a little upset that the history for most Purified had them being accomplished and competent occultist that managed to work with spirits and not go mad or catch a case of the meatpuppet, yet they lose all of it the moment they change.

>>47444243
I think the running idea was that the Purified did *something* to their souls that allowed them to act like a spirit instead and exist fully separate from their bodies. This is part of the reason why it mentions in the book that mages are one of the things they avoid, because a mage with decent spirit/death can trap a Purified as if a spirit/disembodied soul.

>>47445916
G-M Angels or something different?

>>47443756
>>47443783
>>47443807
Why live forever in a cage when you could be trying to break out of it. Supernal entities are immortal in their own right AND utterly free of the Lie.

Does anyone have the new Dark Eras PDF with the included errata?

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>>47449278
Because the cage is where the steak is.

>>47449469
But in the Supernal, you can BE steak.

>>47449469
You can have your steak, I'll be off having a good time with the Platonistic concept of Angelic Blowjobs.

>>47449533
Best description of ascension I've heard yet.

>>47449533
Have fun, its pretty good, I just got done summoning it. Now off to watch a movie. And get a nice nights sleep. And dream. All those comfy things Supernal entities don't do.

>>47449587
Of course not, they don't need them.
They are forever wakeful and without the frailties of the flesh, and can explore and experience the full majesty of the Supernal, which is a realm reflecting (or which reflects) the sum total of existence, containing within it every possible thing you could ever dream of.

>>47449587
Supernal don't do, so much as are, those things. They become the symbols of what matters to them. If that's movies, sleep and dream (and you somehow got off your ass long enough to figure a way out), you may well become those symbols.

>>47449648
>containing within it every possible thing you could ever dream of.
It contains the perfect form. But it's static, unchanging unless altered from the outside.

It's not a fun place, there's a reason the Exarches fiddle around in the Fallen World.

>>47449650
>you may well become those symbols.
You may well become one symbol. As a human you can remain a healthy and multifaceted person. Flawed in concept but for that you're a beautiful snowflake.

>>47449724
The Supernal contains all forms, including forms that are perfect in their imperfections.

The Exarchs fiddle around in the Fallen World because left to their own devices, Fallen World mages might one day be a threat to them.

>>47449724
Dude, when you ascend , you become a perfected version of yourself. It's a positive thing. You can send an ochemata to the fallen and live vicariously through that.

>>47442701
>Favorite antagonists?
The Shartha, because they're probably the creepiest and most loathsome antagonists out there.

>>47442701
>Favorite antagonists?

The white man

>>47445231
And you haven't read the books.

>>47450492
Trump would be a Moros, that way he could build a better wall.

I have a question for people more experienced in running Mage(1e or 2e, I guess)
What works out better, throwing your players antagonists they have the Arcana to deal with(EG, throwing an army of spirits at a group where multiple people have Spirit)? Or throwing them antags they're unprepared for(EG, throwing that same spirit army at a group with 0 dots in Spirit across the whole cabal)?

Follow-up question: Where do Acamoth and Gulmoth fit, here?
I'm not actually sure if, Acamoth would be affected by Mind the same way a Goetia would, or a Gulmoth by Spirit as Spirits would, and I'm trying to decide if my plan B antag will actually work or not.

>>47450554
You shouldn't throw an army of spirits at them, period. The theme is mystery, not supernatural war. BUT, start them in their comfort zone, then diverge, so they have to either think outdid the box, or get outside help.

>>47450595
I was exaggerating.
My second question still stands; how exactly to Acamoth and Gulmoth interact with the various Arcana? Does Spirit treat Gulmoth as no different than normal Spirits? Could a Gulmoth be affected by Life, or Matter?

>>47450619
I think they still fall under mind and spirit. But, worth noting, other Arcanum can still effect them, if applicable. If a gulmoth or spirit is manifested, you can still use Matter to drop a boulder on them.

>>47450619
I think it varies from entity to entity.

>>47450068
Sicc

>>47447792
I'd think Mages would want to avoid Purified too - their template is one of the only references to Mages being able to become un-awakened and return to the comfort of the Lie.

>>47449469
Purification is the blue pill.

>>47451047
What are you talking about the Seerers should seek them out.

If only to learn how to force the purified template on other mages

>>47451338
>If only to learn how to force the purified template on other mages
Jesus, just kill them and be done with it.
Why leave an enemy alive, and effectively immortal?

>>47451395
....... so they can suffer knowing that the Supernal Truth is FOREVER denied to them. Allowing them to wallow in torment and rage for eternity.

Because any Seerer that can force the purified template on a mage whould surely have a high enough spirit to trap the newly purified for the rest of existence.

After all, a mage can give a fate worse then death.

>>47451395
>may you live forever

Worked for the king in 300 (also the name our Beast gave their kinship nightmare from a Purified)

>>47451425

edgyyyyyyyyyyyyy

>>47451486
Serve the Lie or Conform to it.

>>47451425
Edgy, a waste of resources, and someone that one of your rivals could free, and set loose on you.

>>47451553
Also funny.

>>47451553
Not all things are full proof.

>>47446333
And you can dust off the old D&D Monster Manuals.

>>47450619
Gulmoth and Acamoth use Spirit and Goetia rules but are not necessarily these things. You can run into a Gulmoth that is an undead lightning only affected by Fate.

>>47451923
>undead lightning only affected by Fate

>Grounded Lightning is Gulmoth that manifests as a short, jagged pillar of electricity, its base burrowing into the ground below. Like a twisted tree, it searches for mainlines, connecting itself to them and gaining access to all electrical outlets "downstream". The Gulmoth can use its influence to alter the destiny of anything plugged into an outlet. If a human, by chance or by the destiny of the outlet touches it, he or she becomes "charged" with a paradoxical Abyssal destiny that can be transmitted by skin contact.

Meh, I tried.

>>47450595
This raises a question: how to play out supernatural war? Because I am interested in supernatural war plot.

>>47452271
Oh Sam, what the fuck

>>47452275
Wizard war, all all bets are off everything magical just decided "fuck secrecy" mega war?

>>47452275
Think Gang-war over WW2 and Vietnam.

Once you let the genie out of the bottle and shove the supernatral down the public's throat, the big fish take notice and put you down, hard, then clean up your mess.

>>47452271

No, Sam, that's what they want you to believe you fuck

>>47452365
I didn't said anything about going publically. I am talking about secret wizard war. I have this idea about Seer warmaster going on Crusade...

>>47452526
Well Mages have to contend with Paradox, which means battles have to take place in the quiet places away from civilization. Unfortunately that's also whee the massive, ancient, powerful spirits live and they'd likely be pissed at Mages blowing each other up in their home.

This is why the Seers do black ops and gorilla warfare instead

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>15 Experiences
>maximum power stat of 3
>Chronicles of Darkness only
>beasts, mages, mortals, vampires, and werewolves only
>your character is going solo against other beasts, mages, mortals, vampires, and werewolves and trying to make the biggest impact on the city for good or for ill

What should I make if I want to make the biggest splash possible, even a heinously vile one?

Maybe a beast with Behold, My True Form! + Fear is Contagious + Can't Wake Up? How does that combo even work anyway? I thought Can't Wake Up works only once per nightmare?

Maybe a mage abusing the hell out of Time? I can only get up to arcana 4 with Gnosis 3 though...

>>47452588
Mage is always the right answer

>>47452588
Mages are the most powerful, but Beasts can, without any Paradox or even challenge, kill hundreds to thousands of people every day trivially without being trailed. Potentially even more.

So if you just want nigh-instant city genocide, go Beast.

>>47452584
You do understand what there is no need to kill enemy with fireball, when you can kill him with heart attack, right? There are dozens of ways to wage war without incuring Paradox. Including good old "blow up his house" method.

>>47452644
But again, how does the combo even work anyway? I thought You Can't Wake Up works only once per nightmare?

How does a beast doing that NOT accidentally raise Satiety to 10 and shut off all their powers?

>>47452644
>Beasts can, without any Paradox or even challenge, kill hundreds to thousands of people every day trivially

que?

>>47452644

Mages can cause 2 (or more) multiple simultaneous and devastating genocides and better than Beasts

>>47452758
Mages dont have special fan who can cause genocide for you if you trick him.

>>47452692
A Satiety expenditure on Fear is Contagious results in whatever Nightmare it augmented applying to everyone the victim interacts with that day. A meaningful interaction, defined by the power as "anything more than seeing them": speaking to them, restraining them, attacking them, etc., etc.

What you do is combine this with Behold, My True Form!, which you set to activate when they next sleep, and target someone in a position where they'll interact with people throughout the day. A store clerk, a news reporter, a delivery boy, a radio host, whatever. Anyone but a shut-in.

Everyone they interact with that day, including speaking to however briefly, is now infected with Behold, My True Form!, activating when they sleep. To make it better and ensure death, activate You Can't Wake Up to make the damage hit twice.

That night, everyone who interacted with your vector dies*, going to sleep and never waking up again. One reasonably gregarious person can easily speak to hundreds or thousands of people a day, even if just brief "Hello"s.

* The wording of Fear is Contagious actually indicates the expansion is exponential, as it says "a victim of the affected Nightmare", rather than "the victim" - so when it spreads, the people it spreads to can then also spread it. This dramatically ups the death toll, pushing it into the hundreds of thousands if not millions in densely populated metropolises.

>>47452797

Those popular kids are going to pay.

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>>47452797

>>47452828
>>47452849
Mind, it's incredibly stupid and never should have made it past playtesting, but the devs never addressed my complaints, so whatever. OPP playtesting is mere ceremony to build hype, not actually improving the games.

Fear is Contagious needs a hard limit and BMTF! needs its damage changed to Bashing.

>>47452869
Why does Fear Is Contagious mention that you can spend more than 1 satiety, but not say why.


I feel like it's supposed to infect a number of additional people/satiety expended

>>47452913
It does say why. Every Satiety spent drops the next victim's resistance roll by 1. They roll Resolve + Composure - Satiety Spent. Failure on the roll results in the spread.

>>47452931
Man, I'm fucking blind

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>>47452797

But... the first activation of Behold, My True Form! will deal the damage anyway. You Can't Wake Up never prevents that.

Even with Presence 5 and Satiety 9, that makes 14 dice - Stamina. Not quite enough to kill someone, no?

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I just want to say that seeking immortality as a Mage doesn't to my knowledge preclude arch mastery. In fact the knowledge gained in the attempt might help, surely the extra life span you get earns more time and chances to ascend.

If your not all about that power you could just goof off to your own pocket realm and spend your time exploring the astral and enjoying life in your little personal realm. I've always wanted to see the astral version off the moons of Jupiter for example.

Bring your friends along it need not be a solo existence.

>>47452939
>But... the first activation of Behold, My True Form! will deal the damage anyway. You Can't Wake Up never prevents that.
You Can't Wake up doesn't exist to prevent damage, it exists to increase it. All Nightmares can explicitly be triggered immediately or when the victim next sleeps. You hit them with BMTF! and set it to trigger when they sleep. The damage therefore waits, keeping them safe and unharmed in order to spread the nightmare.

You augment it with You Can't Wake Up not to mitigate but double the damage, in order to ensure the kill. So they spread it, go to sleep, and immediately suffer BMTF twice. Presence + Satiety - Stamina once might not kill a person.. twice absolutely will.

Oh, and if you roll well enough you can make them Insane, for kicks, so the rare survivor will instead wake up mind broken, spreading chaos.

>>47452969
Ambition is driven by the knowledge that you won't be around forever. If you're immortal, you lose that urgency that would make a Mage seek out archmastery with all they have, because "there's always tomorrow".

You'd be extremely powerful as an immortal Mage, but in my game at least it would preclude ascension / imperial practise

>>47452999
>Ambition is driven by the knowledge that you won't be around forever.
What's your evidence for this claim?

>>47442701
Link for CoD corebook is expired. Please upload it.

>>47453008
I'm immortal and can't even be bothered to finish Rayman anymore

>>47453014

They were always shitty adventure games anyways

>>47452999
I never found the presence of death to be a motivator for something as grand as pressuring the mysteries. At some level,mom some argument yes it provides some impetus to go out and solve things. That said I'd argue the desire to solve mysteries, even arch mastery is driven the joy of solving something, the raw need to understand and master, and explore.

So... No Withstand ratings over 5, and at most 1 Reach to make Potency a primary factor...
Is there anything at ALL that can stop a Master from doing, you know, anything?

>>47453097
The real world of darkness is how bad IOS autocorrect is. Messes up perfectly fine posts in gibberish, I blame the god machine.

>>47452999
This is just something people tell themselves to protect them from the fact that there is no meaning in death. A finite lifespan isn't a motivation to get things done because people don't really care they can die until death is already breathing down their necks.

>>47453111
Withstand can go higher than five.

>>47453111

Yeah you make it so Mage don't exist in the setting

That's the best thing about CofD, ignoring Mages and pretending they didn't exist in WoD was harder

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>>47453111
magic must defeat magic

>>47453166
Yeah. Ok. 7.

>>47453111
Nope. That's the point of Mastery. The only thing you can't do is, you know, not die.

>>47453111
>Is there anything at ALL that can stop a Master from doing, you know, anything?

Other masters. It's like Pax Arcanum-lite

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Okay. Beast, beyond the Behold, My True Form! cheese.

Alien Allure + Siren's Treacherous Song. For no Satiety cost AT ALL (and no Low Satiety requirement), a Makara beast can add twice their Power Stat to all Social rolls AND always start with an Excellent impression (default impression of Good, goes up to Excellent because of auto-tempting Vice).

None of this is mind control. But if the Makara beast DOES want to use mind control, they can use You Are Alone with High Satiety to push that up to a Perfect impression, meaning they can socially maneuver their way with one roll per turn (and 1 turn = 3 seconds).

Do I have this right?

>>47453377
Perfect Impression doesn't remove doors, they still need to make multiple rolls.

>>47453377
>>47453414
Pretty much. Beasts are very good at the social system, but they don't really bypass it like some other splats do.

>>47453414

But they have twice their Lair to those Social rolls from Allien Allure + Siren's Treacherous Song (again, explicitly not mind control, because Atavisms are never mind control)

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>>47453436
>but they don't really bypass it like some other splats do.

Except when they do, at no cost.

>>47453437
Social maneuvering removes one door with successful roll, not one door per success. Exceptional success removes two.

>>47453377

Ahri so cute

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>>47453450

>>47453450
Okay, yes, their Dominate clone is the exception - I was really referring more to the Atavism combo the anon brought up.

You Must Obey is very strong.

>>47453453
And? They get to make one roll per turn (or per hour, if the beast decided to not bother with You Are Alone for actual mind control).

A turn is three seconds...

Does the giest marionette boneyard trick still work in terms of being OP?

Should I pump all experience into Gnosis or Arcanum?

>>47451884
>>47446333
That's the kind of thing I like doing with random Hunter creatures. I want a Barghest as a monster. I swear there was a canon example about a black dog and how the Hunters could only get rid of it if they cleaned up a park and changed it from being a shitty place to being somewhere families picnic.

>>47453111
>>47453225
The only people who can't get it higher than 5 are mortals, with good reason.
Vampires, especially, are able to get it past that, with their physical Disciplines.
Werewolves have to use their various forms, but they can still get it past 5 if they want.

I dunno about any other splats' specifics, for 2e, but they can all get above 5 by raising their supernatural tolerance trait.

>>47453628
>Vampires, especially, are able to get it past that, with their physical Disciplines.

Vampires explicitly can't add their disciplines to stuff.

>>47453612
You need both. With too low Gnosis, you can't raise Arcana, but with too low Arcana, your high Gnosis doesn't do you much good.

>>47453612
Gnosis, get to G9 with only Disciple in one arcarnum for lols

>>47453665
>Persistent: Add the vampire's dots in Resilience to his Stamina.

>>47453721
Yeah. But vampires aren't allowed to use their boosted attributes when using their defensive aura stuff and things like that.

>>47453825
I don't actually remember anything of the such. Resilience is the only Resistance Attribute of the bunch, and it seems completely built around adding to resistance. Withstand also isn't a Resistance, either, and as far as I'm aware nothing in Mage says it doesn't count. Worth noting is that Werewolves also require a Reach to effect in Gauru.

What's the ratio of Mages to population

Same for Changelings & Beasts

>>47453966
I think there will be more changeling in developed countries and more mages in undeveloped.

>>47453984
Why would you say that? If anything, that seems backwards. Why would you stay in an undeveloped country as a Mage? I mean, I could see there being more Mages as, like, tourists and archaeologists.

>>47454017
>you stay
I mean born, or i should say awaken.
Cos they are usually closer to mysterious shit like ruins in jungle, they probably stumble upon supernatural more often cos there is more population in the villages and supernatural stuff there is worse at hiding then CEO vampires.

>>47454097
>Cos they are usually closer to mysterious shit like ruins in jungle
There's just as many mysteries in cities.

>>47453825
I believe DaveB said that Vampires do add their stuff to Withstand.

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I think Bedman makes perfect Mastigos Seers or Guardian.

Mind
Entering/Controling dreams
Aware of the outside even if asleep

Space
Teleportation
Seeing the connection between people

Time
Recorded past self to assist

Merits
Astral adept

Would the monster bed be a matter spell infused artifact/imbued item which can be mentally controlled?

Even his mannerisms scream Mastigos

>>47453966
DaveB said they are the second most populous splat next to Vampires. Werewolf provides population numbers that indicate they outnumber Vampires more than 3:1 though, so who the fuck knows. They are as populous as you want them to be.

I like to peg Mage as third lowest and tied with Changelings though. Werewolves are the most populous, but Vampires appear to have a much higher population because they congregate in cities while the Werewolf population is more spread out.

>>47453966
>>47454236
I forgot to mention that Beasts aren't given any population numbers, but they work best if they are very uncommon because it encourages them to interact with other supernatural creatures and helps explain why they don't have an organized society. I like to peg them as being the third least common splat, with Promethean and Mummies being rarer. Most cities will only have one, maybe two Broods.

>>47442701
I really dislike Legacies. How can I replace them?

>>47454347
It would help to know what you dislike and why. For instance, I dislike them because they're something that requires you only work on your Power Stat, and unlike a Bloodline, most characters will never get all the fun benefits that made them want to join in the first place. The Fourth and Fifth Attainment could just be "you can do anything you want" for all the players that will actually use them.

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>>47454236
>>47454285

Changeling: The Lost 1e's Autumn Nightmares estimates that one in every million people is a Promethean, and THOSE are the rarest splat.

Page 112:
>Prometheans are rarer than changelings, perhaps one in a million humans

How does Nemesis feel about the Azlu?

>>47454396
They were made literally only for your character being even more of a special snowflake, and absolute most of them is a total garbage which makes you think "who the hell made this?". I dislike Vampire Bloodlines for the same reason (though they are generally more interesting in my opinion). I would like to have magic families instead, but Awakening isn't hereditary.

>>47454447
Mortal Remains estimates about 100 Prometheans period.

>>47454543
You just have terrible tastes, then. Make your own Legacies that aren't total garbage.
Why are you so afraid of being "special snowflake"? Is it even really special snowflake if everyone is a snowflake? How is that ever a good argument? This isn't even like monster PCs in D&D, since most people are going to be in a Legacy.

>>47454543
>I would like to have magic families instead, but Awakening isn't hereditary.
You can play a Proximus, you know that, right? Proximus Dynasties have members that ALWAYS Awaken to a specific Path, and thanks to the Mana in their blood they get some pretty sweet Blessings before they Awaken as well...it's just a shame that they got banjaxed in 2e.

>>47454596
Being Mage is special enough for me. I just don't see Legacies as something interesting or adding to the game.

>>47454626
Which book describes them?

>>47454726
>Which book describes them?
They first appeared in the core rules under the Merits section in 1e, and they got revisited in the book for the Silver Ladder.

>>47454726
The core book in 2e(Supporting Cast chapter), Silver Ladder in 1e

>>47454447
I wasn't trying to imply that Mummies were rarer than Prometheans.

>>47454626
"Banjaxed"? Honestly it's pretty easy to fix the two problems I have with Proximi in 2e. But of note: They don't ALWAYS Awaken to their parent path, and they don't always Awaken.

>>47454726
They add quite a bit to the game. They're more or less integral to the theme of ascension, for instance. They're a way to specialize and decide what kind of Mage you are. They're essentially Orders that provide special powers.

>>47454874
>They don't ALWAYS Awaken to their parent path
That's not a problem. It's a good excuse to make Mage families big and intertwined. Besides, I don't use Paths.

>They're more or less integral to the theme of ascension, for instance.
What. You can Ascend without having any Legacy.

>They're a way to specialize and decide what kind of Mage you are.
This is already done with Praxis and Rotes.

>They're essentially Orders that provide special powers.
Like the Mages suffer from not having enough of special powers.

>>47454236
Vampires, Werewolves, and Mages are the "common" ones.Most supernaturals in a crossover setting will know about them.

Prometheans, Mummies, and Beasts are the "rare" ones, which you have to be informed to even know about.

Changelings and Sin-Eaters are in the middle.

>>47454160
Yeah, supernatural bonuses to an Attribute count if that Attribute's what a spell is Withstood by - vampires in frenzy are really hard to hit with Stamina-targetting spells.

Well, the spoiled Promethean transmutations look sweet.

>>47454997
Which tier do the Unchained fit in?

>>47455080

No they don't

>>47455127
About as many as there are Claimed

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Oh man this combat system.
>playing Dark Eras Fallen Blossoms (Edo japan)
>Player makes a min maxed badass samurai
>Singlehandedly goes to save an inn being roughed up by 6 gangsters
>kills 2 guys instantly, disarms another guy, throws his sword at another near killing him
>one of the punks draws a flintlock pepperbox pistol (8 again) and proceeds to get the most dice explosions I've ever gotten in this game
>have the other party members find him in time before the blood completely rushes out of his head
>we all have a good laugh

I love how the combat is about fighting smart, though having to drop everyones attack to below 0 in a melee fight due to defense can be frustrating. Especially when you're playing in a setting where melee is the standard.

Here's the link to the post on Transmutations: http://theonyxpath.com/prometheantransmutations/

>>47455630

Are those guys alright

Is the sun alright

>>47455630
oh no did they died ?

>>47453111
Catch them offguard, And I mean REALLY off guard.

Do some Joseph Joestar levels of trickery and you have a chance.

Mages are still human despite everything.

Hunter the Vigil 2e core confirmed for 200,000 words total: http://theonyxpath.com/hunter-the-vigil-2nd-edition-open-call-and-thoughts-on-hiring/

Also the Hunter open call is officially...well. Open.

>>47455668
I hate to tell you this Anon, but Helios... Helios didn't make it. I'm so sorry.

>>47455983
Why this bastard and thief Hermes has to live and spawn all those pesky mages, and young and brightfull Helios has to die? THIS IS UNFAIR!

>>47455924
>Mind you, I just glossed over that example with the broadest brush imaginable, but I hope you get the gist of what I’m getting at. To me, hiring a diverse team of writers is the best, possible decision for this game. But, and I’m going to repeat myself here again, that means I am looking for competent writers from a variety of backgrounds. The door is open, just as it has always been, and I welcome you to apply.

Damn, my heritage just isn't that interesting, and they already have some white guys so I wouldn't be diverse. Guess I'm shit out of luck

>>47456242
That only matters if you feel you aren't good enough. Clearly you don't.

>>47456242
Remember, blacks and queers and all other minorities are magical people who don't live like everyone else, therefore their perspectives are unique and their contributions irreplaceable.

I'm glad minorities are fundamentally different and other.

>>47454961
>Besides, I don't use Paths.
Ah, so you were trolling earlier, I see.

>>47456289
It doesn't matter how good I am, if they already have white guys then adding more white guys can't possibly fulfill their stated goal of getting a diverse group of writers.

>>47455027
>>47454997
Dave, is Theban in any way connected to Raptor?

Also, what does Nemesis think of the Azlu? Is she happy that they are keeping people from understanding the Shadow, or is she pissed that they are eating peoples brains and turning them into Man-spiders?

>>47456301
I am not trolling. I am using Pathless system, one from Mage Chonicle Guide.

>>47456361
>Dave, is Theban in any way connected to Raptor?

I'm obviously not Dave but... Why would you ask that? What do they have in common?

Sweet talking a spirit into doing something shouldn't be an act of hubris right?

Like if I offered the spirit of a power generator some essence to take a nap for a while.

>>47456629
We need more context
Is the power generator powering the whole city? Probably an Act of Hubris
Is it just powering a single building? It's fine, no Act of Hubris

>>47456293

Well, yeah, they don't. You're clearly stewing about it but a gay person or a black person or a poor person just isn't living the same kind of life as people who aren't those things, even if their lived experience have some similarities. It's not a death blow to anti-prejudice movements to accept that people just aren't the same, and that it might be better to have some people who can speak more authentically about some experiences. There's never going to be a mono-culture, but that doesn't mean that this is the secret victory of /pol/.

>>47456345
>>47456242

Just do it anyway, for goodness sake. It's not just about identity differences, you can also offer things like "I lived in Philadelphia/Insert Cool City Here and can write about it" or "I know a lot about how the Catholic Church works". Everyone's got an edge, and it's not a given that someone with an edge can also write in a way that OPP would like.

>>47456665
>>47456629

Yeah. The amount of collateral is what matters.

>>47456665
Powering the hideout for some gangbangers.

>>47456678
>Well, yeah, they don't. You're clearly stewing about it but a gay person or a black person or a poor person just isn't living the same kind of life as people who aren't those things, even if their lived experience have some similarities. It's not a death blow to anti-prejudice movements to accept that people just aren't the same, and that it might be better to have some people who can speak more authentically about some experiences.

I agree completely. That's why I said what I said. I am glad minorities aren't regular people and are a separate, special category we cannot mentally understand, empathize with, or emulate.

>>47456606
>What do they have in common?
Well...I'm not really sure, I know Theban was responsible for the Tremere, the Lodge of Apollo and the sorceries used by the Invictus...maybe the Seers who pledge allegiance to Raptor see him as an Ochema who represents their patrons predatory side.

Why are people complaining about Mastigos being underpowered? You can do crazy shit like becoming immune to tear gas even at low levels.

>>47456764
They're not. Anyone complaining about any Mage being underpowered is literally too retarded to dress themselves, let alone post on the internet, so it can't happen.

>>47456764
Shit I meant Moros.

>>47456805
Well Moros are shit because Matter is shit

Fuck me, apparently accidentally hitting escape closes the reply box.

>>47456293
>Everyone's experiences are exactly the same, so I don't see any value in voices that aren't straight white cisgender American males.

Actually, I'm going to drop the sarcasm. Do you honestly believe that? Yes, blacks and queers and all other minorities are not magical people, but they do have lives that are different from "everyone else", where "everyone else" often just means straight white cisgender American males. No one has the experience and perspective of a straight white cisgender American male other than a straight white cisgender American male. Not even every SWCAM has the same perspective as another SWCAM, and when you change so much as one of those identifiers, the perspective radically changes. Do you think that Dave and David have the same worldviews? One of them is British and the other is an American expat living in Japan.

Do you honestly believe that all those perspectives you no doubt dismiss out of hand aren't different from your own, or different from the perspective of many of the people who post in these threads, and as such has value? Do you just not understand why high school lit classes want you to read Things Fall Apart or the poetry of Maya Angelou?

>>47456345
If you see a request for diverse perspectives and you feel that being white automatically disqualifies you and give up then and there, you have no one to blame but yourself. Yes, in very simple terms, just about any book could benefit from not being all white guys. Every diverse voice adds a new perspective to a project, and that's incredibly valuable. But if you just out of hand assume that you won't make the cut so you won't try, that is completely on you. Don't shove a stick into your bike wheel and blame the SJWs when you fall over and bust your knee.

>>47456722
Do you honestly believe that you know what it's like to be black or gay or transgender? Please, enlighten me with what it's like to be a Somoan in the limbo that is unincorporated territory status.

>>47456951
>If you see a request for diverse perspectives and you feel that being white automatically disqualifies you and give up then and there, you have no one to blame but yourself. Yes, in very simple terms, just about any book could benefit from not being all white guys. Every diverse voice adds a new perspective to a project, and that's incredibly valuable. But if you just out of hand assume that you won't make the cut so you won't try, that is completely on you. Don't shove a stick into your bike wheel and blame the SJWs when you fall over and bust your knee.

I'm still probably submitting something, but it's never going to make it unless I tell them I'm a neo-pagan fascinated by anglo-saxon mythology or something. From a diversity standpoint I'm DaveB. And they already have a DaveB.

>>47456951
>Do you honestly believe that?

Of course not. As I said: minorities are magical others we cannot possibly understand, emulate, or empathize with. Why, I can write from the perspective of a werewolf, a vampire, a wizard, or a dead person from the year of our lord 1312, but that gay lady is just too grotesquely alien.

>and as such has value?

Shitposting aside: obviously, people have different perspectives. Diversity is not inherently valuable, and part of writing - part of being a thinking creature capable of empathy - is the ability to put oneself in someone else's shoes and emulate alternative perspectives.

If you can't do that, you can write literally nothing save an autobiography.

Pick the best writers, their insignificant identities be damned.

>>47457004
First, enlighten me as to what it's like to be <your preferred splat here>.

>>47457009
Honestly, just lie. Tell them you're a neo-pagan fascinated by anglo-saxon mythology. If your writing is good, they have no room to argue, and if it's shit you didn't deserve the spot in the first place.

>neo-pagan
Noway, this shit ruined owod

>>47456734
>the Lodge of Apollo
Huh. Neat!
I don't have the Pack, but what's the connection there?

>>47457021
>>47457052
You aren't exactly showing yourself capable of empathy here if you fail to understand a) the different life that a gay lady leads compared to you, and b) the difference between fictional cultures and real ones. You can write from the perspective of a werewolf or vampire or wizard or dead person as equally well as anyone else. Those are fictional things where everyone is on equal footing. That gay lady? There are people like her in the real world. And they actually read the books, too. Why would anyone pay you to write the perspective of a gay lady when they can get a gay lady to write it instead?

Especially when your first reaction is to complain about diversity and deny that gay lady has a life experience different than yours.

>>47457052
>First, enlighten me as to what it's like to be <your preferred splat here>.

You're aware werewolfs and vamires and shit aren't real right? Nobody knows what it's like to be that cause there has never been any of the splats because their existance is fictional, therefore nobody gives a shit about the accuracy of the lifestyle of a vampire because it's understood to be fictional, by everyone.

The key difference between this and say, an african muslim, is that the muslim exists and has a view point worth understanding. The vampire, once again, does not exist and therefore cannot give their perspective.

Have I made this sufficiently clear? Or would you rather make a really stupid argument like I just quoted from you?

>>47457272
>>47457291
Man fuck you putting it better than I did.

>Say I’m you, for a second, and I interpret this call as “the dev welcomes female writers.” So, I write in my cover letter that I’m female, and then proceed to send a submission outlining what I’d like to see happen for the Lucifuge conspiracy. How I would interpret that submission, as the developer, is that Monica wants to write about the Lucifuge. The information submitted doesn’t give me enough to go on, to show me what potential subjects I might put Monica on, so I’d focus on the writing itself. Instead, the Monica I want to hear from will tell me she’s the daughter of an Italian immigrant, she’s well-versed in Italian culture, she has performed a lot of analysis and research for her projects, and she writes a lot of alternate history. That gives me a lot more to think about, provided she followed the submission guidelines, because I know she’d be comfortable writing about her culture and that her contributions would feel authentic and work well for this game.
Well shit, I'm out. I'm not well versed enough to even write about Network Zero.

>>47457272
>You aren't exactly showing yourself capable of empathy here if you fail to understand a) the different life that a gay lady leads compared to you,

This is incorrect. I explicitly said people have different perspectives.

>and b) the difference between fictional cultures and real ones.

The difference is irrelevant. Either you can or cannot write from a perspective you don't personally have.

>Why would anyone pay you to write the perspective of a gay lady when they can get a gay lady to write it instead?

Because you're a better writer. And if you're not, then the better writer than you deserves the spot.

Merit matters. Not identity.

>>47457291
>You're aware werewolfs and vamires and shit aren't real right?

Irrelevant.

>Nobody knows what it's like to be that cause there has never been any of the splats because their existance is fictional, therefore nobody gives a shit about the accuracy of the lifestyle of a vampire because it's understood to be fictional, by everyone.

Irrelevant.

>The key difference between this and say, an african muslim, is that the muslim exists and has a view point worth understanding.

There is nothing inherently valuable about other view points, and no view point is intrinsically worth understanding.

>Have I made this sufficiently clear? Or would you rather make a really stupid argument like I just quoted from you?

You made your stance very clear. You're just wrong.

>>47457355
>Because you're a better writer.
Not how it works. Just because you're Ernest Hemingway doesn't mean you can write as Ellen Page. And you're already assuming you'd be the better writer in the first place.

>Irrelevant
No it isn't. There is incredible value in diverse viewpoints, you simply refuse to acknowledge that because you want excuses. You don't want to think about ways you might be diverse or what perspectives you might bring. You just want to talk about merit--as if the hypothetical you were the most meritous to begin with--and argue that anything else, anything 'soft' like having a unique viewpoint, isn't worth anything. Nevermind that you don't want to acknowledge that maybe having a unique viewpoint IS a merit.

>>47456734
>, I know Theban was responsible for the Tremere, the Lodge of Apollo
Adherents of the Lodge of Apollo are called Thebans. Apollo is not called the Theban.

>>47457355
>Either you can or cannot write from a perspective you don't personally have.
There are perspectives you can only write from because there noone who'd actually know what that perspective would really be like exists.
Like, you know, Vampires and Werewolves.

So the difference is anything but irrelevant. It is in fact incredibly relevant.

>>47457464
>Not how it works. Just because you're Ernest Hemingway doesn't mean you can write as Ellen Page.

"writing as Ellen Page" is not inherently valuable. That said, you absolutely can emulate other perspectives. It's what writing is about.

>And you're already assuming you'd be the better writer in the first place.

Incorrect. As I explicitly said:

> And if you're not, then the better writer than you deserves the spot.

>No it isn't.

Yes, it is.

>There is incredible value in diverse viewpoints, you simply refuse to acknowledge that because you want excuses.

No.

>You don't want to think about ways you might be diverse or what perspectives you might bring

Incorrect.

>You just want to talk about merit--as if the hypothetical you were the most meritous to begin with

Already addressed above. Read before you comment.

>and argue that anything else, anything 'soft' like having a unique viewpoint, isn't worth anything.

Correct. It isn't.

> Nevermind that you don't want to acknowledge that maybe having a unique viewpoint IS a merit.

I also do not want to acknowledge that being on fire is a merit. I'm adverse to falsehoods.

>>47457483
>There are perspectives you can only write from because there noone who'd actually know what that perspective would really be like exists.

This is incoherent. It doesn't matter if people know what it would really be like; you either can put yourself in someone else's shoes or you cannot.

As all non-autobiographical works show, by the way, you can.

>So the difference is anything but irrelevant. It is in fact incredibly relevant.

No.

>>47457563
>This is incoherent
It isn't. That people will know what it would really be like matters, because they are the ones that can tell you that you are full of this.
What Vampire is gonna tell you that you are misrepresenting them?

The ability to write from the perspective of Vampires and Werewolves comes from the fact that if you do, noone can tell you that you are doing it wrong. Because their perspective doesn't actually exist, so you can't get it wrong.

You can in fact get the perspective of a real group of people wrong, because they actually exist.


It's really not rocket science: You can only get something wrong that exists to get wrong.

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>>47457563
>That said, you absolutely can emulate other perspectives. It's what writing is about.

>>47457563
You think the Pure are right. Who gives a shit what your perspective is.

>>47457648
The writer was a gypsy.

>>47456951
>straight white cisgender American male

straight white cisgender *Christian* American male

FIFY

However, while that particular identity is the majority in the USA (except technically for male), it is not universal everywhere.

More importantly, people are more than capable of empathizing with, understanding or even criticizing with people different than themselves.

Further, membership in one of the many "minority" categories is not inherently "magical" or virtuous, nor does it provide any unique insight into the trials and tribulations of any particular SWCCCAM or anyone else. A ninority identity provides no unique insight, intelligence or wisdom; that is based on individualized circumstances.

People are individuals, and not defined or constrained, for good or ill, by membership in a particular class.

>>47457666
You're confusing him with me. And I didn't say the Pure were right. I said they're justified, and neither side can be right.

>>47457635
>It isn't.
It is.

> That people will know what it would really be like matters, because they are the ones that can tell you that you are full of this.

This is irrelevant. Either you can or cannot write from non-personal perspectives.

>You can in fact get the perspective of a real group of people wrong, because they actually exist.

This is irrelevant, unless you are asserting that axiomatically you will always get other people's perspectives wrong and it is literally, physically impossible to do otherwise.

But we have the entire history of literature throughout mankind's life disagreeing with you there, so of course you wouldn't make that argument.

>>47457648
Bad writing does not mean good writing is some unconquerable impossibility.

>>47457666
No, as I explicitly said, Dark Eras revealed the Pure are not right. Try to be less retarded, potato.

>>47457716
>No, as I explicitly said, Dark Eras revealed the Pure are not right. Try to be less retarded, potato.
Dark Eras revealed they're not right about the curse of silver. It's a minor aspect of Pure belief and a later one (Luna cursed us because of our beliefs, not "we have our beliefs because Luna cursed us")

>>47457687
I stand by the belief that the average self-identified Christian is more accurately agnostic, except maybe in the South, where lip service is paid to Jaysis in a way that's more akin to celebrity worship than anything religious.

Also, you're missing the point. No one but the idiot is saying that minorities are somehow "magical", but yes, it is a very real fact that minorities have experiences that deviate from the norm. That's why they're minorities.

>>47457716
Stop replying to every single sentence. It's asinine and makes it impossible to hold a conversation with you. For fucks sake you honestly seem to believe that you can magically write about any other experience outside your own. Tell me what it's like to be a gay woman. Tell me how that experience is different from yours, if you're so capable of doing so that you find the idea anyone couldn't to be ridiculous.

Or, how about this. How about we focus on the thing that Monica actually gave as an example. She doesn't want "hey, hire me, I'm a chick!", she wants to know that you're an Italian-American woman who's well versed in your native culture (as opposed to just Googling it) and you write alt-history fiction in your spare time. She wants people with experience. You bitch because you don't have experience but feel that you should be allowed to fake it, because you can't fathom why that would be less than ideal.

>>47457756
>Dark Eras revealed they're not right about the curse of silver.
Correct. That is significant. It means they're wrong about Luna's spite, which makes everything else they believe about her more questionable.

>It's a minor aspect of Pure belief and a later one (Luna cursed us because of our beliefs, not "we have our beliefs because Luna cursed us")

It is not minor at all.

>>47457807
>Stop replying to every single sentence.
No. You'll either deal with it or stop replying, and neither outcome matters to me more than the other.

> It's asinine and makes it impossible to hold a conversation with you

You're managing somehow. You must be an amazing person.

>For fucks sake you honestly seem to believe that you can magically write about any other experience outside your own

Yes, that is literally what all non-autobiographical writing since the dawn of man has been. I would like to introduce you to a marvelous invention called a book.

Or do you believe that literally all literary works in existence are badly done and fail to demonstrate different perspectives?

>Tell me what it's like to be a gay woman.

That would take more words than a dozen maxed-out replies on /tg/ would allow. You would also need to provide me more information than "gay woman".

What race? What culture? What socioeconomic bracket? Religious status? Location? Family status? Any mental illnesses? IQ? What date of birth? And this is barely even getting into what constitutes a person's identity.

>You bitch because you don't have experience but feel that you should be allowed to fake it, because you can't fathom why that would be less than ideal.

If I am a bad writer and cannot do that, then I don't deserve the position. But that's because of bad writing, not identity.

>>47457687

>People are individuals, and not defined or constrained, for good or ill, by membership in a particular class.

The atrocities and prejudices in human history will prove you wrong, every time. The average human only think of their immediate surroundings as individuals, anything beyond that is defined by labels, both solid and nebulous. Relentless individualism is admirable, but doesn't hold up to an actual look at how people work. Defining and constraining people based on the labels we put on them is the basic core of how society functions.

You can empathize with a minority perspective, but that's not the same as experience, and ultimately leads to "white guilt" induced bullshit. Good writing can certainly bridge the gap, but you still have to put in the work. You have to research and you have to listen to the people with the experience you want to write about.

And again, what you can add to the diversity of voices doesn't have to be explicitly identity politics. Do you know how to do collective bargaining, and do you have a great idea on how to approach The Union because of it? Do you live in London? Then shit, you've got something to put down on your open call e-mail.

And even if, even if somehow, all you have is the life experience of a perfectly average human being in your dominant demographic, just submit anyways. Do a generic submission e-mail with all the lines you're interested in, instead of aiming for Hunter, specifically. Shotgunning your chances will work, especially as OPP's output starts to ramp up.

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>>47452588
>no demon
I see they're afraid of the true monsters.

I'm a freelancer and I can attest that there is no requirement other than quality of work to get a job writing for OPP. Also, formatting, please learn the style guide.

>>47457923
All writing is autobiographical. The number of writers who have been able to write dramatically different perspectives from their own is also incredibly small, which is why it's so notable when a male writer has well written female characters, for instance. Most books written by straight white guys have straight white protagonists.

>>47458045
I refuse to recognize the authority of any style guide that doesn't accept the centuries old concept of the singular They.

>>47458047
>All writing is autobiographical.
Objectively false and contradicted by your own words later in the post.

> The number of writers who have been able to write dramatically different perspectives from their own is also incredibly small

This would be zero if all writing was autobiographical. Not incredibly small. Zero.

>which is why it's so notable when a male writer has well written female characters

This would be impossible if all writing was autobiographical.

> Most books written by straight white guys have straight white protagonists.

This would be all books if all writing was autobiographical.

>>47458045
When you got your job did the company explicitly say they were more interested your background than what you were writing about?

>>47457923
>Correct. That is significant. It means they're wrong about Luna's spite, which makes everything else they believe about her more questionable.
She's a god of madness. Just taking a lune on as a totem means your entire pack is going to go insane. They don't need any further evidence that Luna is spiteful beyond Luna existing.

>It is not minor at all.
It really is. It wasn't even something all Pure believed in.

>>47458106
No, but my case is a little different because I knew the developer who first hired me. After that, the others I've worked for just look at my previous stuff, no one's ever really asked me about my background.

>>47458097
"All writing is autobiographical" means that every person is going to inherently have their writing coloured by their perspective and life experience. Some people are able to work with that, and have the ability to truly empathize with certain other groups. That is a minority of people.
The fact that you can't understand figurative language and the concept of "metaphor" makes it very hard to think that you personally might have any sort of merit.

>>47458157
Nepotism! Who's dick do I have to suck?

>>47458157
Ah well, style guide says existing freelancers don't have to submit, they just ask to get on the project.

We're outsiders, to get through the door we have to help them create their (understandable) diverse writing staff . Which I won't because I look like a lot of the people already on the freelance payroll.

>>47458114
they tear their own auspices off anyway, OBVIOUSLY Luna's gonna be pissy at them. The consider it an important act of defiance.

Also, Dark Eras doesn't actually tell us what happened during the Sundering. Only that there were a lot of factions among Uratha deciding what was to be done before then. And maybe also a mage may have gone to them for help in assassinating Urfarah.

Beyond that, who really knows. It's confirmed that Luna played a more active role in guiding the Uratha than Urfarah ever did, deadbeat-ass dad. Who's to say that the Bitch Mother wasn't manipulating her children into destroying Pangea, like the Pure claim?

>>47458114
>She's a god of madness. Just taking a lune on as a totem means your entire pack is going to go insane. They don't need any further evidence that Luna is spiteful beyond Luna existing.

Being crazy isn't spiteful. It's being crazy. Spite requires maliciousness - like the act of hurting someone who doesn't deserve it (such as by cursing them).

The Pure are wrong about Luna, and their opposition to Luna is a significant aspect of their beliefs. Objectively, they're wrong about Luna. Their other beliefs are largely normative value judgments, which you can't be right or wrong about, but they're more sympathetic.

>It really is. It wasn't even something all Pure believed in.
It's not about what the Pure believed. It's about whether they were right or wrong. Them being wrong about something so significant as their curse, which speaks volumes about Luna's personality, makes everything else they believe about Luna suspect.

Beliefs do not exist independently. They're a network, and the toppling of one frequently fells others.

>>47458192
That you wrote something incorrect is your problem, not mine. That wasn't a metaphor nor was it figurative.

>>47454997
Dave, if you're still here, I'm not asking what we'll hear, but will we hear anything on Deviant at GenCon?

>>47458218
Just because you're too robotic to understand the way that humans talk doesn't mean someone was "incorrect". It just means that you need a new service pack update to better communicate.

>>47458204
>Beyond that, who really knows. It's confirmed that Luna played a more active role in guiding the Uratha than Urfarah ever did, deadbeat-ass dad. Who's to say that the Bitch Mother wasn't manipulating her children into destroying Pangea, like the Pure claim?
Nothing, which is my point. Auspice existed before the Sundering, but that doesn't mean Luna didn't conspire to kill Urfarah and the Forsaken didn't start pogroms to wipe out other werewolves. It also doesn't mean Silver Wolf wasn't cursed and tormented by Luna.

>>47458203
Don't be discouraged. Let your work do the talking for you, I guarantee if it's high quality and you come to the process with an open mind and a willingness to adapt to the dev's needs then you will make a strong candidate no matter who you are behind the keyboard.

>>47458259
Accept you were wrong and move on. That was not a metaphor; a metaphor is an implied shared quality between two separate things. A black sheep of the family is not black nor a sheep, but he is different from the others. Depression is not a black hole, but it sucks you in and doesn't let you out.

"All writing is autobiographical." is not a metaphor any more than "All cake is chocolate." is.

>>47454997
Where do Angels and general GMC stuff fall in that?

>>47457470
A few years ago, Chris mentioned that they're canned Thebans cut a reason. He implied since stuff.

>>47458264
Luna may have conspired to kill Urfarah; I doubt this, based on what little we know of Luna and her favor toward the Forsaken, but it's possible. What we do know is that Luna didn't curse the Uratha, so we shouldn't read more spite into her character than warranted.

I think it's more likely Luna didn't want Urfarah dead, and was distraught, but got over it and appreciated the Forsaken's desire to do what Urfarah did, granting them her favor.

The Forsaken pogroms, Silver Wolf's curse, and other such claims are similarly possible. But, for me, anyway, the main difference between the Pure and Forsaken isn't what they believe happened in the unknowable past, but their modern day value divergences, and it's on that front I say the Pure are "right", to the extent one can be right about a totally subjective ethical system and desires.

>>47458314
>Where do Angels and general GMC stuff fall in that?

Given the nature of the GM it is probably impossible to tell. At a guess I would probably peg them to be about as common as changelings.

>>47457355
>Irrelevant.

HOLY FUCK how do you not get that this is the whole fucking point being argued? How the shit is that fucking irrelevant you childish, dickhead?

>>47458465
The post you quoted explains. Read before you pester me to unnecessarily expound.

>>47453878
Garou require reach? I thought they just required a big die penalty?

>>47458264
Silver Wolf wasn't cursed by Luna. He did that to himself.

>>47458309
>A metaphor is a figure of speech that refers to something as being the same as another thing for rhetorical effect.[1] It may provide clarity or identify hidden similarities between two ideas. Where a simile compares two items, a metaphor directly equates them, and does not use "like" or "as" as does a simile. One of the most commonly cited examples of a metaphor in English literature is the "All the world's a stage" monologue from As You Like It:
"All writing is autobiographical" is indeed a metaphor. You really should update your software.

>>47458501
Saying something is irrelevant doesn't make it so.

>>47458510
They're over Size 5

>>47458501
Oh just shut up you pontificating, pusillanimous, parsimonious, pettifogging moron.

>>47458097
>Objectively false and contradicted by your own words later in the post.

Objectively true, whenever any artist creates literally anything there's a bit of themselves within it.

>>47458218
>That you wrote something incorrect is your problem, not mine. That wasn't a metaphor nor was it figurative.

Not that guy, but listen you shit-for-brains, sheepfucking potatosack, YOU CANNOT DETERMINE THROUGH TEXT WHETHER SOMEONE WAS BEING FIGURATIVE. IT'S NOT FUCKING POSSIBLE.

Anyone want to tip their hat on what they submitted for Hunter? I'm not asking for the full submission, just a general idea. Also, feel free to disclose your background or what you thought might be relevant to mention when you submitted.

>>47457147
The werewolves of the lodge are called Thebens. Worship an ancient evil, they can devour souls. And Chris has mentioned the calling the lodges members Thebens is a link to the thing that transformed the Tremere.

Now all we need is Dave to confirm the connection for some interesting Crossover hooks.

>>47458510
Garou do not require Reach. Their Size imposes a hefty die penalty, so you might want to Reach, though.

>>47458559
>They're over Size 5
You do not require Reach until Size is 10+. Without Reach, you can hit something Size 9 for a -8 penalty.

>Saying something is irrelevant doesn't make it so.

Correct. That is why the post explains why it's irrelevant.

>"All writing is autobiographical" is indeed a metaphor. You really should update your software.

It is not a metaphor.

>>47458577
Unless you possess some remarkable ability to make me, no.

>>47458631
>Objectively true, whenever any artist creates literally anything there's a bit of themselves within it.
Autobiographical is not defined as "writing in which there's a bit of themselves within it".

>Not that guy, but listen you shit-for-brains, sheepfucking potatosack, YOU CANNOT DETERMINE THROUGH TEXT WHETHER SOMEONE WAS BEING FIGURATIVE. IT'S NOT FUCKING POSSIBLE.

You absolutely can.

>>47458664
tip your hand, I mean. You may also tip your hat to me if you wish, m'sir.

>>47458559
>>47458675

To elaborate, since I didn't want to go over word limits: your quote says ".. refers to something as being the same as another thing".

Autobiographical is not a thing. It is an adjective, not a noun. You could say "All writing is autobiography", but autobiography is just a subset of writing, not a thing separate from writing. It is, again, as metaphorical as "All cake is chocolate." or "All birds are seagulls". Which is to say: it's not.

>>47458672
Isn't the thebens thing a link to the Lance? mainly because they have Theban Socery.

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>>47458559
>Silver Wolf wasn't cursed by Luna. He did that to himself.

Please read the books you want to talk about.

>>47458762
Well, it's called Theban Sorcery because it was taught to Longinus by a weird Mekhet from Thebes.

>>47458672
This is the first I'm hearing about it, and will hit Chris with a rolled-up magazine next time I see him. Because he's wrong, and had he asked he would know that.

>>47458846
>by a weird Mekhet from Thebes.
Yes on second thoughts lets not go to Thebes, tis a silly place.

>>47458675
As much as you think you've explained out your argument and that it's just us not getting your fine and nuanced points, the fact of the matter is your argument boils down to "no, because no", at most it's "any halfway decent writer can flawlessly write from any perspective" which is such a ludicrous statement as to not be worth arguing against.

>>47458897
Incorrect on all points made. My argument is that one either can or cannot write from an alternative perspective than one's own. If one cannot, then diversity in authors has inherent value, as they provide unique and irreplaceable writings no one else can.

If one can, diversity has no inherent value, as someone can emulate the perspective of a more diverse author.

My points are neither fine nor nuanced. It's a simple matter with a simple answer. Those of you disagreeing with me are not doing so based on any rational thought, but rather an emotionally driven desire to make a virtue out of diversity.

>>47458864
Honestly. I wouldn't blame Chris. Blame Anon.

>>47458967
you type like a redditor.

while it's important to remember that diversity does not make someone inherently more capable of writing or discussing something(see black Americans who defend racist institutions or police brutality), it's also not inherently bad or irrelevant.

Someone who lives & works in Seattle will have a certain level of immersion in Seattle's culture that gives them a leg up writing about Seattle. A homosexual who is active in the Columbus-area gay club scene is going to have a leg up on writing about that than someone who has never been immersed in that culture.

Lived experience may not NECESSARILY equal more quality or even more authentic writing but it certainly isn't going to lead to WORSE writing.

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>>47458967
Both extremes are wrong:
One can write about things one isn't intimately connected with, but it's easier. Not necessary, but easier.
Thus, diversity in authors has some value.

>>47458631
Honestly, you can tell whether someone was being figurative. I mean, in general. The robot can't, but that's because of out of date firmware.

>>47458967
But your argument is wrong on all counts. It hinges on the notion that any person can write a perfect account of someone who is drastically different than they are. And ultimately your argument is just justification for why you believe that a straight white male should get hired instead of anyone else.

>>47459080
>you type like a redditor.
No he doesn't. Replying to every single sentence in greentext is definitely at home on 4chan, and while Reddit is definitely too fucking SQW at this point, "minority viewpoints aren't valuable" is definitely 4chan through and through.

Has the spell factor/reach issue with Imbued Items/Artifacts been addressed yet?

>>47459080
>you type like a redditor.

Okay.

>while it's important to remember that diversity does not make someone inherently more capable of writing or discussing something(see black Americans who defend racist institutions or police brutality), it's also not inherently bad or irrelevant.

I never said diversity was inherently bad or irrelevant. I said various things were irrelevant with regards to the inherent value of diversity vis-a-vis producing authentic, compelling settings and characters in writing.

>Lived experience may not NECESSARILY equal more quality or even more authentic writing but it certainly isn't going to lead to WORSE writing.

Thus my insistence on merit rather than identity. If the alternative perspective produces better writing, go with it. But go with it because the writing is superior.

>>47459093
>Thus, diversity in authors has some value.

What value does it have? Easier writing isn't necessarily better writing.

>>47459119
>But your argument is wrong on all counts.
Incorrect.

> It hinges on the notion that any person can write a perfect account of someone who is drastically different than they are.

It does not.

>And ultimately your argument is just justification for why you believe that a straight white male should get hired instead of anyone else.

Irrelevant and incorrect.

> "minority viewpoints aren't valuable" is definitely 4chan through and through.

It is "minority viewpoints are not inherently more valuable than majority viewpoints", though it would also be accurate to say "No viewpoints are inherently valuable".

Can we talk about literally anything else?

>>47459119
>. I mean, in general. The robot can't, but that's because of out of date firmware.
Oh, missed this one. It is easy to tell when someone is being figurative. However, that was not a metaphor, as it both failed to compare two separate things and failed to compare things that are fundamentally dissimilar.

>>47459189
You can talk about literally anything else you want to, at any point. Go ahead.

>>47459166
>What value does it have? Easier writing isn't necessarily better writing.

And harder writing isn't necessarily better either.
But it's just that; easier. Takes less effort from the author. They also need to do less research (not none though, but less), which means they can produce stuff with fewer work-hours.

>>47459207
Then let's talk about Minor Templates! What kind would you like to see going forward? What area do you feel hasn't been covered yet?

>>47459210
>And harder writing isn't necessarily better either.
Correct. That is also why I've never said "not being diverse is better"; I have said diversity is not inherently valuable.

If diversity produces superior merit, then embrace diversity. If it does not, then fuck diversity. Merit is what counts.

>But it's just that; easier. Takes less effort from the author. They also need to do less research (not none though, but less), which means they can produce stuff with fewer work-hours.

This is stepping into territory we can't really debate with any semblance of accuracy. One could just as well say that their assumptions and perspective will lead to them not challenging misconceptions they have based on personal experiences, thus requiring more time in future drafts correcting themselves.

The speed at which one writes is too personal to claim diverse or not diverse wins.

Does Pyros occur naturally like Mana & Essence? Can I store it?

>>47459261
>Then let's talk about Minor Templates! What kind would you like to see going forward?
None interest me. I don't care about minor templates. I'm a Werewolf fan primarily, with some long-time fading interest in Vampire and an appreciation for the powers, but not themes, of Beast.

>>47459261
Magical girls

>>47459265
Yeah it's all over the place but IIRC it doesn't really pool or collect into Loci or Hallows the way mana and essence does. It's more ephemeral than that and I think it's a whole complicated process to bottle it, hence why there have only been like six or seven Promethean lineages throughout all human history.

>>47459288
How do you do Magical Girls as just a Minor Template with Merits? Their powers are, usually, very big and visually impressive as well as destructive.

>>47459284
Not even new way they've done Wolf-Blooded? I've even run games with nothing but WBs in the setting, to just heighten the old-school feel of the cursed or more basic werewolf trope.

>>47459332
Well, we already have wolf-blooded. In the Werewolf book. So they're not something new to see going forward.

That said, I'd never play one, so I'm not really interested. They're fun NPCs or PCs for other people. Same with ghouls.

>>47459332
god i fuckin love wolf-blooded dude. My werewolf players have been having an ongoing problem with a teenager who accidentally managed to remember a werewolf incident through Lunacy, and he's turned into a proto-hunter after dealing three aggravated damage to the teen werewolf with a silver spoon.
I'm toying with having him meet some bigger hunters, possibly a vengeful wolf-blooded.

>>47458864
>DaveB

How are things going with the errata? Any changes greater than spelling and punctuation mistakes?

>>47458864
I'm dying imagining this. Someone should warn Chris. Or not.

>>47458864
Its more likely my fault, don't blame Chris on my mistake.
I asked him if there was a connection between the Temple of Apollo totem and the Theben that changed the Tremere. Sence both use the term Theben and involves Eating Souls.

Chris gave a implied response that could have been yes or no. I believe the response was "There is a reason their called Thebens." Or something along those lines. And I just jumped at the opportunity of that crossover hook.

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>>47459314
Does Hunter count as a minor template?

>>47459864

hari berria

>>47459332
>>47459407
After thinking on it some more, though, I guess I wouldn't mind a fluff book focused on the life of a blooded, how they fit into packs, their personal social dynamics, their significance in Uratha culture as seen by the various tribes, etc., etc.

>>47459853
No.

>>47458864
Hey DaveB do Pangaeans get attainment from the Arcane they get? Also do they have mana or can they pay the mana cost for spells with essence?

>>47459830
>I asked him if there was a connection between the Temple of Apollo totem and the Theben that changed the Tremere. Sence both use the term Theben and involves Eating Souls.
The Temple of Apollo are probably called Thebans because in Thebes there's a fuckhuge temple to the sun.

It's much more likely Apollo is the Firstborn Incandescent. They both have their servants build temples to him.

>>47459925
The totem for sure is not a first born. Its some foreign creature that wants to use Earth as a pit stop by devouring all the souls before moving on in space.

Also like I said the answer could have gone both ways. I was just blinded by my foolishness.

>>47460014
>The totem for sure is not a first born.
there's no reason to believe this
it could just be another firstborn that didn't get to turn into a spirit
it does act like incandescent

>>47460231
Hmm fair point. But then why would the frist born want to eat up earth asnd move on.

>>47460254
no more pangaea
where else is it gonna hunt?
space is big, space travel takes a lot of energy

So as a person just recently interested in the Hunter splat, what are the expectations of the 2nd edition?

>>47462257
From what I hear. It's largely going to expand upon 1e, rather than hugely changing it. There's going to be more focus on /how/ hunters degenerate into slashers as well.