/cofd/&/wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness General

>>47376686
It's from the only issue of Epitaph magazine, but it's an excerpt from Geist page 214.

>>47376824

Epitaph magazine? Was that a White Wolf house organ that didn't get off the ground?

>>47376565
>Tell me about the last character you made.

>le forever-gm face
Last NPC I statted was one of my PC's friends, who may or may not actually show up in-game.
I'm hoping they will though.


Last character I made for myself to use was a Brujah in V20, for use in a game starting on Monday, who I intend to play as basically this guy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ek0GxtWSoAc

So is this an Obsession?
https://youtu.be/8WAsQKcJ_Xo

>>47376978
It was a reboot of White Wolf Monthly that failed. I found it in the megalink, up in the pastebin.

>>47377030
>>le forever-gm face
Oh shit I should probably start planning for my game now that I'm not coughing up my lungs. I sort of forgot about that.

>>47377063

Oh OK, I'll have to check that out. I've been meaning to just read all those White Wolf magazines for some reason.

>>47377063
Yes
It probably wouldn't make someone Awaken, but that's certainly an obsession.

Seeing as the new edition just came out, I'm curious about Mage. I feel like other lines were more obvious about what they were going to be about. All of the comments about it on wodg make it seem like it's a giant dick measuring contest purely about how ridiculous you can be, I don't get the theme or goal of the game from this.

>>47378595
Seeking out strangeness and attacking it with autistic applications of Arcana.

>>47378595
>All of the comments about it on wodg make it seem like it's a giant dick measuring contest purely about how ridiculous you can be

That's a consequence of the fanbase, not really a function of the game.

The theme of the game is hubris: you're given a buttload of power, a powerful urge to stick your nose into shit that isn't your business, and asked how much you're gonna destroy before you can tame that urge.

A little more down to earth, the meat of Mage is investigating Mysteries and dabbling in politics; they aren't quite as deeply invested in it as Vampires, but being able to get along with other Mages--even and especially Seers--requires quite a bit of double-dealing and tit-for-tat favors.

>>47378652
Thanks, what kind of mystery becomes a capital M Mystery? It's interesting I've not gotten into this, I seem to make a detective/investigator/police consultant for just about every line at some point, a game all about investigating sounds great.

>>47378595
Magical Investigators is the primary theme.
People who have awakened to a fundmental truth and desire to learn more, and cast off the shackles of the Lie of reality.

Many shitty players get caught up in using it to act their power fantasies however, acting in such a way that would be horrendously destructive to in-game Wisdom and result in them spiralling into Madness.

>>47378724
Anything that requires enough attention to solve that it can become one's Obsession.
Capitalized purely because its also a game trait, since Mages are obsessive as fuck.


On an unrelated note, can someone give me a rough guide of what ranks of the various Ephemeral Entities I should be giving my players at various levels of Gnosis, if I want something easy/challenging/hard?
Something tells me it isn't just a 1-to-1 translation, and a 1-dot Spirit will be wrecked, while a 3-dot one might be difficult to deal with.

>>47378724
>Thanks, what kind of mystery becomes a capital M Mystery?

Basically anything sufficiently supernatural and weird that it'd pose a challenge for a Mage.

Figuring out which werewolf tore this poor man apart isn't a Mystery, but figuring out WHY the werewolves are tearing people apart more than usual might be.

>>47378724
Generally learning about anything with a Supernatural component.
Including both Supernal, and Terrestrial Supernatural powers.

So investigating a Murder would really only be a Mystery if you went about it with the angle of investigating what happens when you gently sever a Ghost's anchors, or something else other than "I wanna find out who stabbed this guy".

But anything with regards to a Supernatural power source, such as a Vampire's Vitae, or Spiritual Essence, is a Mystery.

>>47378595

Being better than everyone else

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJnN3WMwDsk
Is this show about Demons? Or Stigmatics?

I'm positive, at the least, that the Network is the God-Machine

So, a setting hack I want to use in my Mage games is the idea that, while the canonical Watchtowers are the "Greater" Watchtowers, meaning the majority of mages Awaken to one of them, there's also a wide array of "Lesser" Watchtowers that have entirely different arrays of powers to the canonical 10-set. Only problem is... I don't really have any very solid ideas for what these Lesser Watchtowers might be. Anyone care to lend some ideas?

Like, one idea that I have had floating in my head is a Watchtower that grants Life and Forces as its Dominant (Primary? don't recall the terminology) Arcana and Mind as its Inferior Arcana. But I have no idea what I'd call that. Haemotheurges of the Eternal Engine?

>>47377982
>Actually they may live longer.
>The Sin-Eater story entry talks about a to be Sin-Eater being killed back in the 1920's, and is getting revenge on the pack grandchildren. So that may imply that they live longer.

>Or he is in a tier 3 krew. But i doubt that last one.
This is from The Pack, right? This is new information. The geist book actually talks about how only old age will put a Sin-eater down for good (though elsewhere in the book it also suggests using a plotline that would involve a dead Sin-eater with it's Geist wandering about, because Geist is a great idea and a stupid book.

Also, I think Mac-the-Knife isn't a Sin-eater, it's a Geist or Abmortal.

>>47379309
Grab the Chronicler's Guide, there's 2 bits on page 101, Warlocks of Arcadia and the Circle of Degrees

Basically, Warlocks of Arcadia is a setting hack where only the Gross Arcanum(Time, Forces, Space, Matter, Life) determines the Realm, while the Subtle Arcanum(Fate, Prime, Mind, Death, Spirit) determines your title. There are still 5 Supernal Realms, but they are each their own Pentacles, with Mages of those realms Awakening on the far end of the respective Subtle arcanum's path in the realm, and finishing their journey when they sign their name on the Watchtower in the center of the Realm.

The circle of Degrees is very different, and is basically a hack where each unique combination of Gross/Subtle/Inferior Arcana has its own Realm, and the Mages use Circles instead of Pentacles as a result.

>>47379531
>Warlocks of Arcadia
Also, instead of your Realm determining your Inferior Arcanum, you choose one of the 4 Subtle arcanum yourself as your "Shame"

The example it gives is a Warlock of Arcadia with the Shame of Prime; or rather, a Mage with Time/Mind Ruling and Prime Inferior

Guys, what do I run for my next game?

I feel like I have lots of ideas, but none of them are the right idea.

>>47379741
Mortals. No Hunter crap.
Just Mortals.

>>47379778
I want to give my players something supernatural to play with, though. I was leaning toward Geist.

>>47379429
>Also, I think Mac-the-Knife isn't a Sin-eater, it's a Geist or Abmortal.
Mac is probably just a ghost (their a knack for ghostbusting; turns out laying ghosts to rest is fun and profitable). The woman is a Sin-Eater.

>>47379741
Werewolf.

>>47380109
Geister are ghosts now, remember

>>47380151
>Geister

>>47380151
Geister were always ghosts - just a particular kind of weird, half-spirit ghost. We just have a more concrete idea, rule-wise, of what kind of ghost.

>>47380161
Geißtundheiten

>>47380189
They were Spirit-Ghost hybrids. Now they're just Rank 3 Ghosts.

>>47380161
https://translate.google.com/#en/de/ghosts
Get the fuck over yourself

>>47380228
They're Geists, senpai. :^)

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zh8dFoBLbWksCZd6Bhw3hXOpDaUhBidcFKoGX04fR5Q/edit?usp=sharing

>>47380272
Wow, this looks like garbage

>>47380272

>dark pack logo

Holy shit that's a blast from the past.

>>47380325
>>47380431
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zh8dFoBLbWksCZd6Bhw3hXOpDaUhBidcFKoGX04fR5Q/edit?usp=sharing

>>47380442

Why did you post it again?

>>47380460
Because I was board?

>>47380478
Freaking claimed.
Go back to the forest you plant monster.

>>47380272
>wanting to be a dragon

No, fuck that shit

Fuck you and your fucking dragons

>>47380058
Don't do it, it's a mechanical and thematic mess.

>>47381173

It doesn't help that the linked book isn't very good. Look at that art in there. Look at it.

>>47381296
I've run it before, which is part of why I lean toward it. I just wish there were a 2e conversion.

None of the other game lines are clicking, unfortunately. Vampire doesn't interest my group, thematically. Mage is a little too complicated. Changeling... I haven't quite worked out how to run it without making courts and changeling politics matter—it didn't go well last time, at least. Mummy seems like it only has one story to tell...

>>47380142
Werewolf sounds cool, but it's the game I'm least familiar with.

I just watched the movie Wanted with Angelina Jolie.

Anyone else think it had good Adamantine Arrow vibe?

>>47381745
I mean, it is based on a comic book about supervillains ruling the world, with the "super" part being much more obvious than the movie had it

It's certainly viable inspiration for a MtAw game.

Does anybody have an idea what the mechanics for the Runewalks in the London setting are supposed to be?

>>47382596
Which book is this from?
I can't find any reference to Runewalks in Shadows of the United Kingdom.

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Look, I know you guys hate to hear from me when it's just attention whoring (that is, all the time), but I gotta know.

It was obvious what I was trying to do with Nephilim in Giants in the Earth, right? You can all tell what they're supposed to be? Because I never see anyone talk about it, and I'd hate for someone to think I had an original thought when it was a drawn-out anime reference.

>>47380226
Guests are now just ghosts? Ghosts escaped from the underworld sure but just ghosts?

>>47382691
Powerful Ghosts, but yeah.
Which personally I like a bit more.

>>47382688
yes, we get it.

now go away

>>47381745

No, but I want to fuck Angelina Jolie

Angelina Jolie circa that time or when she did Tomb Raider, not the titless pussyless version that we have nowadays

>>47382749
It is interesting to say the least. I do wonder how things will change in its update with this. Wouldn't sin-eaters be even more like the claimed than they were before now?

Also just so I can read up on it more can you point me in the direction of this info?

>>47382691
Geists are a type of powerful ghost. I suspect they are still weird, archtypical beings.

>>47382688
Yeah. Also, you got to stop seeking validation from people who keep insulting you, it isn't healthy.

>>47376565
V20 Gangrel neonate. Live in source with Nosferatu pal, have some rat features, coward, low social skills, thinks that town prince is his sire.

>>47378595
In basics all mage old and new is about different perception of reality.

>>47383508
Also DtD have "Technognosis" in list of inspirational literature, as for me its great to get you into the mage, despite being completely useless to get you into the demon itself.

>>47380272
Why would you make this instead of just playing Beast as All-Dragons?

>>47384011

Because you can actually be a dragon, for one, instead of an otherkin who gets to maybe shoot fire out of his mouth every other week.

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>>47382688
I don't like the Nephilim because I don't like taking Lethal damage to use my power and not being able to cheese that by choosing Wound Healing. Other than that it was pretty neato. Also, no, I wouldn't have gotten that. I don't really see how they're similar. If I was going to assume any anime reference, I'd have assumed Saikano. Also, what >>47383096 said. I'm not even saying don't post, just don't post like this. It's bad for you.

>>47382691
>>47382896
The only place they get mentioned in 2e is during the ephemeral being rules (where it's mentioned that Sin-eaters will have an effective Rank) and in Mage 2e's section on Ghosts.

>>47384018
Fire breathing happens more than once a week in the Beast game I'm in, I can tell you that. I think every kill on our side so far has been by that Atavism.

>>47378595
Mage is about having your eyes opened to the nature of reality and being unable to go back to quiet sleep. You know what is behind the curtain, you know what's in the hotdog. You can't rest knowing these things. You need to seek it out, learn more, no matter how much it hurts. More than that, it's about Hubris. You know more. You can DO more. But how much are you willing to tell the people around you--or even reality itself--to sit down, shut up, and let you handle this? How much are you willing to let someone else suffer the consequences and clean up your mess because you "know what's best"?

>>47384018
>Instead of being an Otherkin you can be a furry
I'm sorry, Beast may be focusless, but it's also not a dumb fan game with less theme and a dumb concept.

>>47384018
It's easy to make Beast always monster; you just need to make some modifications and let Beasts turn full Horror in the real world.

>>47384143
Yeah, while Beast has shitty otherkin aspects, you can actually use Atavisms basically all the time, 24/7. You're definitely not human.

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Have any of you used Slasher? If so, how'd it go?

>>47384018
So otherkin bad, but "I'm secretly a dragon keep your hands off my hoard silly humans" is fine?

>>47384649
that also sounds dumb. just be actual monsters all the time by default.

>>47384716
I just read your dragon thing. It was awful, realy truly awful; not helped by the cartoon manimal dragon cartoons that look like the sort of thing a dargon furry would have on their deviantart.

Very first power listed is fire breath that deals aggravated dmg by default for 1 fuel trait?

>>47384773
ain't my dragon thing.

>>47382616
Mage 2e

>>47385070
No Mechanics, GM fiat.

>>47384794
My bad, the terribleness blinded me

>>47385191
Yeah, what this guy said. Maybe walking a given Runewalk gradually casts a certain spell. Perhaps wandering through Westminster you might gradually find cuts and bruises fading and healing as congealed Life magic pooled along the route accumulates on your skin. Or maybe walking a certain distance along the banks of the Thames gives you sudden insights into a problem relating to a specific arcana, similar to the Dreams merit.

What do you guys think about the possibility of running a CofD game in a historical American setting?

I was leaning toward Wild West Geist, personally.

My players were interested in the American Revolution, though, and I'm trying to think of viable ways to incorporate one of the gamelines—probably Geist, Werewolf, or Hunter—into that context.

>>47386016
What do they want with regards to the Revolution?
Steriotypical American "let's kill all those English bastards for muh freedom" bravado with Werewolves or Vampires tearing through platoons of horribly outmatched Redcoats?

Or the actual horror of the time including the slow and painful deaths resulting from infected musketball wounds and brutal, vicious field amputations which caused death in 35% of cases?

Plentiful material for a Geist game centered around trying to lay the dead to rest properly.

>>47386206
>>47386016
>the American Revolution
Watch some episodes of Sleepy Hollow. I haven't seen the second season, but the first was basically "General Washington had me overseeing some spooky occult shit".

>>47386253
Oh yeah? Sounds interesting. I'll definitely give it a look.

>>47386206
They don't just want to play as supernatural monsters tearing through Redcoats, no. They're just interested in the setting—the horror that accompanies any war, especially on one's own soil; but also the fact that it was, surprisingly, a successful revolution somehow.

I feel like it would maybe end up being centered on city like Boston or something, with the players having to deal with whatever supernatural trouble the war stirs up.

How often do you give your players freebies to start with? Merits, experiences, any sort of bennies.

I'm thinking of having my players start as an established group, having basically been put together by their old chum mentors and told to go check out some other city and see what kind of spooky shit there is. I'm thinking of giving them Safe Place ●●●, Sanctum ●●, Demesne ●●●, and if they come up with one, Cabal Theme ●. On top of giving them maybe 10 Experiences and/or Arcane Experiences.

Also, how well does "your mentors want you to work together" work as a way for the characters to get together? It feels contrived and a bit lame. I may end up changing that. I also wonder whether Mage society would have that sort of apprentice carrying on the torch culture, since Mages will likely go through several mentors (since I don't get the impression that a Mage's first mentor is necessarily the one who teaches them their Legacy).

Having the characters not be random strangers who don't even know each other in the first session is one of the hardest things in planning for a game. Especially since half the time the players will go with that even if they're meant to be in a group simply because they don't communicate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeqLNGAVqK4
Would The Fury work well as a Claimed?

>>47386390
One of the common ways for a Mage to go from Awakening to having their own Cabal is to be recruited into their Mentor's Cabal for a while, so they can learn the basics and anything else the Mentor wants to teach them, then basically kept on retainer until another Cabal or two has an extra member, at which point they drop their Apprentices with each other and tell them to get used to each other's company.

>>47386390
I like to start them off with some extra merit dots to encourage them to diversify, take less popular choices and flesh out the character

>>47386390
I'm planning to give my players one free dot with which to get a Mentor (if only because the game starts with them being forced together into a Cabal by their mentors).

Everything else is up to them.
No more than one dot in Consilium or Order rep though, they're supposed to be newly minted Mages with full ownership rights over Tass, Artifacts, Items and so forth.

>>47386475
I know in 1e's book at least you were encouraged to give stuff free, like even Status 0 meant you got High Speech and stuff. Also, I guess you're doing the same thing as me.

>>47386436
Mage is a game where I feel like the setting wants you to always have some really close mentor figure at all times, but players want to be loners who learned it all on their own and don't have parental figures. Vampire, too, always feels like nobody ever has their Sire in their life, and rarely even from some "I hate you vampire dad" situation and more just the player didn't really think about the sire.

Or maybe that's just the kind of character concepts I've seen. My one Mage had a mentor who faked his own death and turned out to be the BBEG.

>>47387038
I always buy a Mentor merit.
Always.
It's another NPC you can usually rely on.

Which works great when your GMs are usually "everyone's out to get you" dickbags like mine usually are.

>>47384018

But holy shit that splat is so boring. It diesn't even have antagonists in it. What are you even supposed to do in the Dragon game?

>>47387038
The problem with mentors is that they're a character that, by definition, has to be superior to you as a supernatural or there's nothing for them to teach you. A lot of people have no interest in a relationship that exists to reinforce their inferiority.

>>47384319
Used one as the antag for my Hunter game. Worked out great, they buried him in cement.

>>47384319
I threw a claimed slasher at my group and he proceeded to cut his way across the city for like...months before they finally killed him.

>>47386016

I tried to do Campire in 1759s Quebec but shitty players ruined it. Colonial settings are super underrated.

Was it Dave ir Chris that shared their colonial Mage setting?

>>47389579

Holy shit, typos everywhere.

Being on an iPad is suffering.

For some reason I find the idea of an Arisen getting used to this whole internet thing rather funny.

>>47389843

The Scroll of Ages takes many forms, and the internet is merely the youngest. I'm sure the Sesha-Hebsu love and hate it in equal measures.

Online banking and trading probably gives the Mesen-Nebu a raging boner.

>>47389843
Don't forget how many vampires are sired for tech support. Any given prince likely spent a decade explaining telegraphy every night.

What upcoming books are you most excited for? What are your hopes for Gen Con?

>>47390051
Some news about Deviant beyond the most basic we've received.

>>47390051

I'm hoping we get a clear look at Deviant this GenCon.

>>47390051
I hope for C20 to not suck.

>>47390051
Deviant the ????????
Signs of Sorcery
Secrets of the Tribes
Secrets of the Covenants
Thousand Years of Night

>>47390351

Except for Signs of Sorcery which is nearly done, don't expect much info on those books by GenCon. I don't believe they've even advanced yet to a first draft.

>>47390412
Thousand Years of Night is in First Draft
Signs of Sorcery is in Development
Secrets of the Covenants is in Layout

Step up, senpai

>>47390464

I don't expect any of those books to arrive in 2016, particularly with the distractions of summons conventions and the slow pace of Paradox approvals.

Are we allowed to talk about Scion here? I'm curious about the new edition and have never read the old.

>>47391171
Sure, we can talk about Scion. I played it for about five months back in 2009. We went for a kind of light-hearted kick-all-the-ass approach that fit it really well mechanically. I played a Son of Thor and had a blast.

>>47389677
poor entitled white boy

>>47390051

Onyx Path Eulogy, the book where Onyx Path apologizes for being so shit before it closes down forever

>>47391205

So in Scion, do you strictly have to be the actual children of gods, or can you be chosen mortals elevated by the gods but not related by blood?

And in 2e there's going to be "mortals" play, right?

>>47391205
There's this very dangerous moment at the cusp of being a Demigod where the GM has to take extra care, because the power curve of the player characters can start to go exponential if they even think of minmaxing at all. A decent divine melee weapon + high strength + various boons like Hurl To The Moon and even ordinarily powerful enemies can be seriously fucked up seriously fast. It /is/ fun to be on the non-receiving end of, though.

>>47391275
Certainly all I remember was that everyone was the son or daughter of a God. What you exactly consider to be a God is another matter entirely. Obviously there's the Norse, Aztec, Mayan pantheons, but you could also, for example, be Cthulhuspawn by GM fiat.

>>47391275
There are chastise Gods and Goddesses who never had children but can adopt and uplift niggers. And yes, Alpha is going to be the core rules and templates for mythological creatures and mortals.

>>47391323
>Alpha

Origins, you mean. Origins, Hero, Demigod, God.

>>47391275

In 1e, childs only

2e is gonna have childs, chosen ones and something else, if it ever comes out that's it

>>47391387
Yes, Origins.

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>>47384117
>I don't like it because I can't cheese it.
Pic related.

But uh, how it came about was I had just rewatched Evangelion, and was thinking about how every time I played an Eva RPG, everyone wants to be an autistic albino clone that has AT field powers and they start to literally fall apart like Rei did in EoE as a result, and that really doesn't work in fucking Evangelion, but I thought it would be neat in World of Darkness, so, here we are. I think I even said when they hit integrity 0, you melt into orange ooze.

>>47391743
Okay, we get it.

>>47390051
If they don't announce Geist 2e...
Fuck it, I really will write a damned super extensive homebrew.

>>47391269
>Calling people out for having iPads
>On a computer
You realize like most of the planet doesn't have those, right?

>>47391275
>>47391393
If I recall, you could be someone who had ichor through some other method. Also, chaste Gods didn't get Scions by "adopting and uplifting niggers", you get abandoned by one God and Chosen by another. That's how my Scion who was Baldr's son was a Scion of Hel.

>>47391743
But AT fields don't give you robot powers.

Also, it's not that I can't "cheese" it. It's that you can only activate your Form powers once every two days. The Primum-as-negative-integrity thing is also interesting but difficult. I did get the orange goo part, though.

For what it's worth, if you want someone to assuage your insecurities, the actual intro writing for Gods in the Earth was top notch.

>>47391837
>you get abandoned by one God and Chosen by another.
So isn't that essentially uplifting niggers by choosing them?

>>47391902
You're not uplifted, though. You already had Ichor.

>>47391937
At least, I think that's how it works. I've actually got no clue what happens if you're never given Birthrights. For all I know you just never get to do Sciony power hero things and you're just a normal mortal.

>>47391937
You can't still claim the Birthrights of the God who abandoned you right? So, by being the nigger who gets uplifted by the new God, you get to choose from a new selection of Birthrights.

>>47391983
Technically the character doesn't choose the birthright. My character actually still got a Birthright from Baldr, but was still a Scion of Hel and had her domain stuff, and also a Naglfar motorcycle.

>>47392058
Oh well, I still say niggers be getting uplifted in this bitch.

>>47390051
Right now I'm 99% just interested in Deviant info. Not expecting, but I'd be interested in more Demon stuff.

Is it possible to create a Ghoul out of a Little Folk?

>>47394030
...You mean someone like Peter Dinklage?
Yes. There's absolutely no reason you wouldn't be able to. You can Ghoul ANYBODY, as long as they aren't already part of one of the other splats.

>>47394143
>Peter Dinklage
No, I mean a fae.

The settings is oWoD, Dark Ages.

>>47394183
You'd need to make that clear, since most people would assume you mean nWoD.

Also, in oWoD you could ghoul anyone, hence Samual Haight.

>>47391275

2e's getting way looser with who can count as a Scion, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Ichor explanation goes out the window, especially with the pantheons being explained as culturally based constructs of Fate. There's also going to be way more "lower-level" play, with Cultists and Oracles and Satyrs and the like.

I'm really liking the cut of its jib so far, though the previews are so few.

Anybody care to spare some example Obsessions?
My players keep coming to me with ones they're considering that feel either WAY too long-term(things that basically amount to "get to Gnosis #, then learn Arcana # and use it to do something that is then really simple") or way too short-term/vague("Reveal a Mystery" is one I got, before I went on a bit of a rant about how that's equivalent to going to Santa and asking for a present, without specifying anything about the present, just 'a present')

Thankfully, at this point, they're getting them figured out, but I'd still appreciate a list of examples so I know if I'm being too harsh and/or so I can give them something to look at if they need ideas.

>>47396919
>Anybody care to spare some example Obsessions?
Obsessing over a random filler image's origins >>47377063

So, I was thinking about an all G-M themed table with a Demon, Fractal, and some kind of Stigmatic created Deviant. All ready to fuck up some Infrastructure.

>>47396919
Find a Sapient Ghost.
Own an Artifact.
Read another Order's Grimoire.
Discover the phenomenon behind Changelings.
Discover how the Uratha came to be.
Become an Honorary member of a Spirit Court.
Stabilise a temporal anomaly.
Banish a creature of the Abyss.
Obtain mentorship from a powerful Mage.
Defeat a powerful Spirit.

>>47396919
This has been the hardest part for me too, honestly. I wish the book had made more of an effort to talk about Obsessions, since it seems like they're pretty important to the intended themes of the game.

>>47387038
In my Constantinople by Night game about half the characters had sires that have been very important in their lives.

First there's the Roman Lasombra, whose Sire murdered his father in front of him and them embraced him and kept him as a slave/sex toy for the next twenty years. To make it even more disturbing, he was nine years old when it happened. Eventually he tried tried to murder his Sire, failed, and woke up in the 12th century to find Rome had become a ruin and everyone worship a crucified Jew. Getting revenge on his Sire is his driving motivation, and the bastard has turned out to be the chronicle's BBEG on account of his designs against Constantinople.

Then there's the Gangrel Viking, whose Sire was a Valkyrie and the two of them were very much in love. Then Setites showed up, killed her and fucked him up. He spent the first few arcs of the game looking for the guys who did it, and eventually found them in Alexandria and got his revenge by performing the blood eagle on them and leaving them to the sun. Also took out the top three Setites in the city, because they were protecting his targets.

Finally there's the Genoese Toreador, who actually came to Constantinople on her Sire's behalf in order to help him expand their power base, and started out blood bound too him. They have a pretty close relationship, call each other father and daughter, and generally get along well. However when the coterie met him Genoa, it turned out that he'd gotten lazy and allowed the fucking Tzimisce to usurp on his power base. His childe wound up having to clean up his mess for him, which pissed her off enough she renounced his patronage. They did make up later though, and remain allies since they have a lot of intertwined interests in the mortal and vampiric spheres.

So basically "I hate my vampire dad", "I loved my vampire mom but these assholes killed her" and "I love my vampire dad when he has his shit together".

>>47396919
>>47397112
They're basically Magical versions of long-term Aspirations.

"Obsessions
Obsessions are just like long-term Aspirations, except they relate specifically to a mage’s compulsion to explore the mystical in her life. They could be goals to learn or research specific things. They could be player goals for the character to encounter certain strangeness in the world. They could be goals to use magic in new or extreme ways.
Every Awakened character receives one or more Obsessions. This depends on your character’s Gnosis dots. A character with one or two Gnosis dots has only one Obsession. A character with three, four, or five dots of Gnosis has two Obsessions. A character with six, seven, or eight dots of Gnosis has three Obsessions. And a character with nine or ten Gnosis has four Obsessions.
In addition to the Arcane Beat from resolution, resolving an Obsession also gives the character a point of Mana. Additionally, Obsessions apply any time an Aspiration could apply. For example, they influence Social maneuvering actions. Any time a character uses Focused Mage Sight Scrutiny (see p. 92) and an Obsession applies, the Obsession adds a die to the attempt."

So I'll just amend my previous suggestions >>47397097
>Investigate the hierarchy of Ghosts and the source of their self-improvement
>Investigate Artifacts and the mechanics behind their "creation"
>Investigate the symbolism and rote abilities of another Order (very dangerous, this one)
>Investigate and uncover the truth behind Changelings, and their connection to Fate
>Investigate the nature of the Uratha and their strange innate abilities
>Investigate a specific Spirit Court, uncovering aspects of their true nature
>Investigate "natural" Temporal Anomalies, beyond those created by the Time Arcanum and find their source (for the purpose of perhaps more easily manipulating Time through using the Arcanum to enhance these loopholes)

>be a young Mage settling into a new town
>need some transportation
>head to the used car dealership
>dealer shows me around until we find something
>actually kinda nice, but a bit out of my price range
>decide to work some Fate magic
>think I can probably make a minor accident happen when I start the car, get them to reduce the price
>go to cast my spell
>dealer's actually a mage
>he's also casting an Emotional Urging spell on me at the same time
>I get an exceptional success
>he gets an exceptional success
>Mage Sight pinging like crazy

This was our first game of Mage. The car dealer is another player character, and we both declared we were casting spells at the exact same time. It was pretty funny.

I have to say, I like the game a lot already. I can't wait to play more.

Is it just me, or is Death extremely underwhelming until Adept proficiency?

>>47398378

Death has always been utter shit, just like the Moros

>>47398378
>>47398535
Death is now the only way to harvest Mana without a familiar or killing someone, and can do it at Death 3.

>>47399017
Such options weren't that plentiful in 1e, and Hallows, Legacy Oblations and Pattern Scourging were always more than sufficient in the games I played.

>>47398378
With death 2 you can;

>always get away with murder.
>protect your soul from soul loss.
>melt objects or make them soft enough to break with your fists.
>make mages think your a sleeper.
>fake your death like a boss.

Morors is strong. If you have one on your team, as ST, feel free to send soul stealing monsters at the players.

>>47399017
>Death is now the only way to harvest Mana without a familiar or killing someon

Have you just forgotten about Prime Arcanum?

Heck, Prime can actually create Hallows.

>>47399145
>always get away with murder
Because that's so hard with Magic

>protect your soul from soul loss
Against all 3 people who will go for it

>Melt objects or make them weaker
Because no other Arcanum can fuck with objects

>make mages think you're a sleeper
I guess, if they don't have some other method of determining who you are.

>fake your death like a boss
Except against like practically any even halfway competent Magical investigation

Look, Death has its whole "souls and Ghosts" angle which no other Arcanum can replicate. But apart from that it's weak as shit.
At least Spirit can rely on the near universal application of Spirit Influences.
All Death has got to play with is Ghosts, who usually have powers relating to how they died and little more.

>>47399201
At Mastery, sure. If you've survived to Gnosis 5, mana probably isn't an issue for you anyway. Death 3 is open to starting characters and it isn't even a Wisdom risk if you Inure it.

Before Mastery, Prime needs for the Mana to already exist to be of any use to you. 1e used to have ways of harvesting it from inanimate objects, but 2e axed that option.

>>47396919

The few I'm keen on right now:

>Find a way to access the memories of past lives
>Discover the lost civilization beneath North Africa's sands
>Unearth the source of my visions
>Make my new name my true name

>>47399420

It's not clear that 2e eliminated the Prime mana procuring options, rather than just not providing sample spells with limited space and needing to provide examples of the new "Truth" focused aspect of the Arcanum.

This concern was raised in the FAQ thread on the OP forum, and I hope Dave addressed it in the upcoming FAQ or Signs of Sorcery.

Death 3 Devouring the Slain is also hardly a easy or repercussion-free source of mana except to the most cruel and depraved (and low Wisdom) mages.

>>47399682
Sadly, it can be.

Take it as a Rote, and you can use the extra reach to bypass the scouring per day limitation.
Then either inure it when you take a Wisdom hit from it, then hope that the remainder of your Wisdom can stop the relatively minor Paradox effect that will result through most common use.
Or take the Guardian's of the Veil's Mask and at a reasonable dot-rating, list it as one of the two ignored crimes against Wisdom.

It won't even be that much of a trial to pay for the willpower point to enter the Mask as you can then just drain that off other people.

>>47387324
Dragon the Embers was always underfleshed. Given that I've seen 3 or 4 comparable dragon splats over the years, sharing a myriad of similar themes, my feeling is that people are thinking top down first in design (make the dragons work, then build the horror and game) instead of bottom up design (build horror and game, then the dragon)

What other monsters would you like to see games for?

Do you think OPP should stop making new gamelines?

>>47399734

Your mechanical analysis is largely accurate (although I don't think all the effort and XP expenditure you suggest would necessarily be worth the small amount of mama gained from the spell), but ignores the narrative problems of what the spell does and how it's employed.

To most of the Pentacle, intentionally causing suffering and serious physical damage to people is not acceptable, and if done to Sleepers, a potentially serious Paradox problem.

Within the setting, It's a spell to be used in emergencies except for demented cult leaders and similar villains

>>47399959

Maybe not stop gamelines all together, but at least take a break. We don't need yearly splats.

>>47399959
if only to prevent the crossover sections from becoming 300 page supplements on their own.

>>47399959

OPP will not stop making new gamelines for the simple reason that new corebooks sell better than any supplements and keep the whole setting fresh. They also expand the total overall potential for new sourcebooks.

I though Dark Eras was a great project, and if the Companion is nearly as good, I hope OPP expands their offering of historical settings.

I additionally believe that OPP has to publish their game supplements far more regularly to maintain interest. For instance, nVampire has not seen a single supplement in *years,* and thus receives a fraction of the attention and discussion of the other lines.

>>47400015
Vampire is the most boring thing wod has to offer.

>>47399964
It costs 5 experiences for the whole bundle.
4 for the Masque, which provides a variety of other benefits.
1 for the Rote.
In fact, you can easily get that during character creation.

Also yes, many within the Order would be angry about that.
However as a member of the Guardians of the Veil, you're supposed to be shifty and untrustworthy by nature, and as long as you don't go infecting anyone's grandmother's surgery wounds, there's not much they can do about it.

I mean, the wounds inflicted by the spell are through infections, which won't cause Paradox unless someone's inspecting them with a microsope at the time, and won't cause dissonance as they're a residual effect, not something sustained.

Furthermore, the Pentacle is an order which has Soul Removal as a punishment, and dictates that if someone steals one of your Soul-Stones, you have to do 3 tasks for them to give it back.

>>47400036

Maybe to some, but it is (or at least was) the cornerstone of the CofD setting and marketing, and probably represented the most easily recognizable and media saturated monster of any of the games.

Requiem also may have been perceived as less boring with a few supplements expanding the setting and player options over the years since its release.

Once Secrets of the Covenants is finally released, to say nothing of the power-gamer potential of A Thousand Years of Night, I expect Requiem to see a significant reinvigoration.

The arguments about Methuselahs vs. Archmages, and why werewolves don't have an equivalent splat, should spill a great deal of virtual ink.

>>47400143
Urgh, "vs" arguments are the fucking worst.

>>47400143

And they say mage players are bad

>>47400143

If Thousand Years of Night is anywhere near as good as I want it to be, Vampire will go way up in my eyes. It's a game with inherently immortal protagonists, yet the vast majority of play seems to be the recently dead - which makes sense, but isn't what I want from it.

>>47400155
>>47400189

I'm certainly not advocating the splat arguments, but despite their very annoying nature, they are meaningful to a some fans. More importantly, the arguments largely exist because fans are interested and competitive about their games, and this is a good thing from a corporate marking and profit perspective.

For example, we've recently seen a lot of discussion about mages and werewolves, and yes, who would win various white room fights, but despite being out much longer. vampires are almost totally ignored in these debates. A new and fresh Requiem supplement will likely change this state of affairs, and be good for the overall CofD setting.

>>47400404

Maybe it is because vampires suck

>>47400189
What does he say thats so bad?

>>47400403

Your comment is the perfect example of my earlier point.

A lot of fans like to play high-level games (or at least read and argue about big, scary powers). It's the reason why Imperial Mysteries was such a success and is referenced concerning matters beyond Mage.

A Thousand Years of Night will be good for the Requiem line, and will likely result in fans of other CofD gamelines demanding similar "patron" splats (and an 2e update to Imperial Mysteries!!!).

Demand for more books, no matter how annoying the resulting forum arguments, is good for OPP.

>>47400448

Contemporary media and White Wolf sales since the 1990's would beg to differ.

While you or I might not believe vampires are the most interesting splat, WW and its progeny companies would not have existed without them.

>>47400458

If anything needs an endgame book, it's fucking Werewolf. I wanna know what Primal Urge 10 does to someone.

>>47400448
Eh, compared to most other splats, Vampires have one of the most readily available sources of power. The blood flowing through the veins of every single human on the planet.

No problems relating to hunting down the resideue of Supernal power on Earth, resolving Ghostly problems, feeding off of emotion, stealing celestial fire, or sipping from wells of spiritual Essence.

Just crack open a nice warm human and go nuts.

>>47400496

I wouldn't refer to it as an "endgame" book. That's very oWOD.

I much prefer "patron' splats, in a manner similar to D&D Epic Tiers.

>>47400557

The best part of using humans as a power source is that they're renewable and easily available.

They're like the cold fusion of supernatural power (except for the sometimes unfortunate murder side effect).

>>47399420
>isn't even a Wisdom risk if you Inure it
It never is if you are subtle about it.
When talking about things that are Acts of Hubris up on Enlightened level is to kill or otherwise harm people for a long time. Temporary harm isn't Hubristic, provided you are aware of the consequences.

>>47400630
It is when it's done solely for personal profit.

>>47399512
I don't get WHY this wasn't too change your sympathetic name to the one you currently use. That feels like weakening yourself.

>>47400557
Emotions are easier than blood, honestly.

Is there any way to used Death or Time Arcanum to make someone fall asleep?

>>47401638
Not falling asleep, but both of those could render them unconscious out of exhaustion.

>>47401686
Cant you use time to fastforward body clock?

No mage post apocalypse setting where the fallen world is mostly corrupted by the abyss

>>47401902
Well yeah, but you've either got to force them asleep, or make them want to sleep.

Merely changing their body to feel it's time to sleep won't do dick if they're not tired

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Abyssal Manifiestation turning Sleepers who indulge in their vice into creatue of vice

>>47401969
I can see it being more like a disease than anything else...Infectious Sin Cronenbergism.

Was Fame always situational, or is that new in 2e?

Like, in 1E I sort of guestimated that Fame 1 meant regional, 2 meant national and 3 meant international/global.

But now Fame reads that it applies specifically to people who would have reason to know you're famous, so you could have multiple separate Fame merits.

Like Angelina Jolie would have Fame 3 (acting), 2 (big boobs), 1 (humanitarianism) and 1 (vidya), maybe. Whereas Obama would have Fame 3 (everyone) since hes basically globally known and known as potus.

>>47402163
If you make a fame roll in situation where you fame doesn't apply (porn star in the library) you just make roll harder. All this fame x, fame y, fame z just clump up character sheet for no reason.

>>47402504
Hmm, and how does that affect supernatural sympathy? Because Fame dots penalize dice pools the same way Occultation does

>>47402774
Fame's sympathy scattering effect applies whether you know about their fame or not.

>>47402834
So I want to spy on someone who I saw in the street, but have no idea who he is. Turns out he's the Yugioh world champion or something, giving her Fame 3 (card game nerds) but no Fame outside her niche.

I still take the full penalty to spy on him?

>>47402870
Yes.

>>47399734
Didn't David mention something about the Pentacle almost universally consider Inuring a Wisdom-damaging spell as a bad thing, and mistrust Mages that they know have done it? Because inuring a spell isn't just a mechanical thing, you're actually incorporating something un-Wise into your Pattern, and other Mages can tell when you cast an Inured spell if they study it with Mage Sight.

>>47403794
Okay then, ignore the inuring option, and just go 100% Guardians of the Veil.

>The Black Theorem
If that doesn't sound like an Abyssal incursion, I don't knwo what does (long story short, it's a statistically mechanical proof that, once discovered, drives the person who proved it insane)

>>47403840
Masques are must have anyway. Take that fifth dot and the merit is virtually free. And if you want, you can then take more masques with same benefits at cost of only 2 dots.

>>47404287
It sounds exloitable, but in-game you're not exactly yourself when you benefit from them. The core was vague on it but I expect the future books will expand on how Masques can mess up Guardians who use them.

>>47403863
Math is a cool thing. Understanding and comprehending proof of that something that cannot exist in the real world actually exist, but reality is too simple to fit it in screams "AWAKENING" to me. Thats it, my next mage PC will be math professor.

>>47405218
Hmmm, would the discovery of Black Theorems a purview of the Mastigos, or another Path entirely?

>>47405401
I'd place it squarely between Mastigos and Obrimos.
Mind for the insanity, Space and/or Forces for whatever the theorem involves, Prime because it's fuckin' magic yo.

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>>47405401
It's just the Nemesis Continuum with a different name. You don't need magic to realize it.

>>47405601
It's still going to fit into the purview of at least one of the paths/arcana, which I think is what he meant

>>47400630
I'd say it counts under Understanding Hubris
>deliberate and premeditated murder and violence that leaves its victim with long-term injury
Lethal is pretty long term for most beings and there's a chance you might kill them outright.

>>47401912
Well of course not. The exarchs wouldn't allow their pet project be corrupted that much.

>>47401902
That's Life. You could use Time to fast forward actual time, but they'd notice. Just Suppress Life and don't worry about it.

>>47403794
Then you don't advertise it and shield your pattern from prying eyes. How do you think the left-handed manage to stick around in the Pentacle?

>>47405769
>How do you think the left-handed manage to stick around in the Pentacle?
By being in the Mysterium and Guardians.

>>47405792
The left handed get executed on sight (upon discovery and proof).

>>47405845
Only the Scelesti.

>>47405845
Oh yes. What constitutes Left Handed however varies.

>>47406012
Yes, but once a legacy has been declared left-handed, it's a free for all. The Bokor are shady as fuck, but they're not 'officially' left-handed.

>>47406102
>>47405845
Not really. The Mysterium also hides a lot of Left-Handed groups. And I believe so do the Guardians. They don't make it public and they try to keep them on a leash, but just like pedophile priests, they just get shuffled around if anyone is suspicious.
>Left-Handed or Reaper Legacies that would be rooted out from the other Orders of the Diamond are allowed to quietly flourish in the Athenaea, their unique praxes and secret knowledge deemed too valuable to lose.
There's not really a such thing as "kill on sight", not that it will likely stop Arrows or certain Guardians. But again, Guardians also have the philosophy of "Sins for a just end grant Wisdom".

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>>47406178
>There's not really a such thing as "kill on sight",

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>>47406315
>>47405923

Scelesti forever

Even if a Legacy is declared Left Handed by a Convocation, they only become illegal in any Consilia who showed up and rarified it into their Silver Laws. Many LH groups probably survive by having a Consilum on their side: if the Heirarch is a Logophage, your chances of getting them kicked out are pretty much nil. Unless it becomes a cast killing spells now and ask forgiveness later question.

Would you play a Gurkha? Not a Gurkha anything specifically, just a character who who was a Gurkha in addition to whatever else you were playing them as.

Gurkhas are awesome.

>>47406527

No.

Gurkhas are a fucking meme like cassowaries

>>47406661
What about Gurkha Cassowaries?

>>47406681

Double no.

I might have imagined this, but I seem to remember a long time ago DaveB posted (here, I think) how he goes about creating a consilium.

It is a long shot, but does anyone have that post saved?

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>>47406703

>>47406747
Much obliged.

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>>47406747
While we are posting good dev-posts, there is also this:
It's not city-building, but it's pretty damn good too.

>>47406829
>The reason I want to run a game involving Ivory Claws

>>47402879
Man, in the age of youtube, Fame has seriously become much less special

>>47408011
Fame • (there's a video online with of him vomiting on Emma Watson at a movie opening)

>>47399959
I think they need to delve headlong into more blue books. A new Book of the Dead should be a must, considering that the Underworld is now a ubiquitous part of the CofD.

>>47408121
>A new Book of the Dead should be a must, considering that the Underworld is now a ubiquitous part of the CofD.
its just as ubiquitous as it was in 1e when the first book was made

>>47408165
There were several gamelines well into their lifespans by the time Geist came out (which is where we were introduced to this version of the Underworld). Now it's mentioned in all of the lines from CofD corebook on. They need to build on that and flesh it out with the 2e rules in mind.

What's your city like in the CofD?

>>47409411
London has 32 Boroughs and the City in the middle. Each borough has it's own consillium complete with 2/4/6 (depending on Sleeper population) Councillors and one Hierarch. Each borough is responsible for their own Lex Magica, except for a couple of over-arching commandments (see below).

The City has no consillium as such since only one Pentacle Mage is allowed to live there. Each Borough Hierarch also serves as a Grand Councillor on the City council, which deals exclusively with things that affect all of the colsillia (combating the Seers, resolving serious Veil breaches, etc.)

The Grand Hierarch is voted for by the Grand Councillors from their own number. His sole function is as a tie-breaker where the Grand Council fails to reach a majority decision (which almost never happens), so is in theory a huge step down in power compared to being a borough Hierarch, where they are an actual Hierarch. Where there is a tie in this vote, the youngest (most recently Awakened) mage in any borough casts the deciding vote for arbitrary, poorly recorded reasons probably to do with them having no real political opinions yet.

The advantages of this position are that he is the (and this title is unofficial and using it to their face is a serious crime, in theory) "King of the Ring Road", which means they are the only Mage allowed cast whilst standing on the M25 - an ancient (even by Mage standards) artifact that for reasons unknown negates all dicepool penalties to all spells cast within it's boundaries - but ONLY to the Grand Hierarch of the City.

Most Grand Hierarchs simply vanish one day, resulting in a new one being voted in. Arguments persist over whether the M25's power lets them cast with such might that they invariably ascend, or whether them being the only Pentacle Mage in the city makes them a sitting duck for their enemies / the MASSIVE Vamp population and getting killed to death is just a part of the job.

>>47409671
Also as the sole Mage permitted to live in the City itself, the Grand Hierarch is the diplomatic face of all London Mages to the Sleeper government and the Royal Family (who are NOT Sleepers).

>>47408216
did you even look at the book of the dead? it's not a geist book, it has sections for every splat except demon and mummy

>>47409780
He didn't say it was a Geist book, just that it came out after Geist, which introduced the Underworld that Book of the Dead expands on

>>47409411
Nashville is the city, but the entire state of Tennessee is ruled by a uniquely regional Covenant: The Watauga Association. With origins as old as the state, it markets itself as having all the best aspects of the Invictus, the Lance and the Movement but with a focus on unity, protection and promotion of shared interests. In reality, it's a classic Southern Old Boy's Club filled with nepotism and corruption. Its had to put down two revolutions in Knoxville since 1968, relentlessly persecutes the Circle, and is constantly plagued by infighting and paranoia over 'owlhoots' (a regional name for Strix and those possessed by them).

>>47410081
I dig.
You dig.
We dig.
He dig.
She dig.
They dig.

I'll admit that wasn't a very good poem, but it is rather deep.

>>47410081
>The Watauga Association. With origins as old as the state, it markets itself as having all the best aspects of the Invictus, the Lance and the Movement but with a focus on unity, protection and promotion of shared interests.
Interesting, so can a vampire who is part of that Association take Theban Sorcery regardless of their associated Covenant within it?

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>>47410258
>no xe dig

>>47410320
Yes, the Association a large powerbase for members of the Tollison Creed of the Lance, who often feel alienated by the more archaic aspects of the traditional church hierarchy. They don't have access to all the Theban Rites, but they have some..and they've even created a few of their own that borrow from aspects of Southern Pentecostalism, such as snake-handling.

>>47410401
Niceu.

So how would someone best turn this into a clan or bloodline?

http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Dead_Apostle

>>47410866

>WoD/Nasuverse crossover

Why do people keep trying this?

>>47411003
I honestly haven't the faintest clue.

>>47411003

Because there is a lot of overlap of theme and tone, despite Type Moon stuff being moonrune.

I myself consider Tsukihime to be one of the best World of Darkness homebrew settings I've ever played. Shits awesome. In fact, I think i'll go play through Ciel's route again. Best girl.

Mushishi is another anime which is Mage like. High Wisdom Thyrsus following Mysteries related to spirits

>>47406315
Let me rephrase: USUALLY.
Scelesti are a bit different.

>>47410081
>>47410401
It's interesting, but also very "why?"
What makes Tennessee so unique that it would have a regional covenant watching over everything? Pentecostal Thebans is great, but I'm confused as to why there'd be an old boys club watching over that state and that state alone.

>>47411364
It grew up with the state, forced those kindred who settled there to join or GTFO. It doesn't always work, but its got history and it has survived all the attempts (so far) to break it up.

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So I'm finally putting down the video games and dragging myself through the Labyrinth that is the Mage 2e rules in preparation for a game. I'm making a sample character to get my head around the rules and I'm feeling like I might be disillusioned with the Mysterium now. They're kind of sketchy when you get beyond the whole Indiana Jones thing. Does the Free Council support two gun archaeology?

But beyond that, I'm curious what would be more important for a character that goes around and explores Atlantean Runes. Prime or Spirit? I went Moros (since they're exploring the ancient world) so I'm going Death 2, Spirit 2, but might split the last two up to go one of each.

Now that I'm not feeling as much like shit, I might put into practice that suggestion I was trying for a week or two ago and start making a sample Consilium's worth of Mages.

>>47411623
I meant what makes Tennessee special in that regard? I could see something like that in Utah due to that state's founding, but why Tennessee?

>>47411830
>I meant what makes Tennessee special in that regard? I could see something like that in Utah due to that state's founding, but why Tennessee?
The actual Watauga Association was the first autonomous government of colonists in North America. Several years before the Declaration of Independence, these people who had gone across the Appalachians to settle in direct defiance of Crown Law. Tennessee was the first territory to be incorporated into a state, in essence the first glimmer of what would become the 'wild west' spirit started there. It was a haven for outlaws and rebels from its beginning, and it makes sense that Kindred who wanted to get away from the old systems that they didn't feel they could get ahead in might emulate their kine neighbors and adopt that spirit as their own, starting their own Covenant and from there it's just a matter of reinforcing their success.

>>47376565

In nWoD 1E the books make the Noctuku bloodline seem like this scary/deadly group of nosferatu. Is there truth to this? They don't really seem very dangerous, frankly, they seem pretty fuckin weak, desu, I think most other bloodlines could mop the floor with them. But I haven't played a lot of VtR, mostly CtL and mortals.

I'm making a Noctuku focusing on Vigor, only taking the first two dots of phagia. I'm open to other disciplines (probably gonna take protean 3) but idk, is he ever going to be a threat to other kindred??

>>47411926
Huh. I never knew about the Watauga Association. But wasn't Delaware the first State?

>>47412140
Tennessee was the first federal territory to become a state. Think like all those Wild West territories that eventually turned into states, Tennessee did it first.

>>47411926
>>47412140
>While there is no evidence that the Watauga Association ever claimed to be outside the sovereign territory of the British Crown, historians have often cited the Association as the earliest attempt by American-born colonists to form an independent democratic government. In 1774, Virginia governor Lord Dunmore called the Watauga Association a "dangerous example" of Americans forming a government "distinct from and independent of his majesty's authority."[2] President Theodore Roosevelt later wrote that the Watauga settlers were the "first men of American birth to establish a free and independent community on the continent."[3] While no copy of the settlers' compact, known as the Articles of the Watauga Association, has ever been found, related documents tend to imply that the Watauga settlers considered themselves British subjects.[4]
>>47412195
Ah, that's not quite as amazing.

>>47409411
I honesly couldn't give half of a shit.
Any game I ran set in Australia, people would expect Aboriginal bullshit with Mage traditions, Werewolves, and possibly even some stupid weird Vampires.
And I've had quite fucking enough of that thank you very much.

>>47412248
Well I had fun creating it and I'm happy with it.

>>47412287
Nah, not saying you need to change it or anything, just felt like looking it up myself. This is the ̶W̶o̶r̶l̶d̶Chronicles of Darkness. Roanoke was captured by aliens, not merged with the Croatoans.

>>47412416
I just wanted something different for my Vampire game. I don't know if the players will think it's as cool as I do, but odds are I'll never find a group anyway.

http://theonyxpath.com/something-something-pun-about-may-monday-meeting-notes/

Updates:

>Post-Editing Development

CofD Hurt Locker (Chronicles of Darkness)
Beast Ready Made Characters (Beast: the Primordial)

>>47411951

Can someone pls respond )^:

>>47376565
>Tell me about the last character you made.
A conspiracy theorist obsessed with aliens, UFOs, and government cover-ups. None of them actually exist in-game.
All of the theories he DOESN'T believe are actually true and/or based on "real" in-game stuff. (eg "There's a vampire living in the mayor's basement who uses hypnotism to skew votes.")

>>47412869

Great, we'll have something new by june

>>47412869
>Promethean in Layout

>>47413152

Pretty sure it's been in layout for the past couple weeks.

>>47386395
>Would The Fury work well as a Claimed?
Yes. So would The Pain and The End. The Sorrow seems more like a Geist, or maybe a weak Moros mage.

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>>47394290
>Haight
Why you gotta open old wounds?

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>>47398357
>Not making your own car out of dirt, trash, and other waste

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>>47406681
I feel like this, or at least something like it, has been done before...

>>47413246

The ultimate badass

>>47376565
>Tell me about the last character you made.
I didn't get a chance to play him because the game he was made for fell apart in the planning stages, but I made myself a Predator King werewolf who was an amateur boxer growing up. Bad household, abusive drunk stepfather who ran a gym. Learned enough to beat his teeth in and rip out his heart during his First Change, and realized he liked feeling strong and unrestrained, it solved problems. Fuck society, bring it all back to anarchic primitivism.

>>47413742
The Pure are great. I've only had one Pure only game but they're regulars in my vampire and other games.

>>47412909
That fantastic.

Has anyone do a crossover game of CofD and Sion?

>>47414726
You pick one rule system to use first. Ideally CofD since Scion is broken as fuck

>>47414695
I really want to get my ST to run an antagonist-splat game. The Pure seem like they'd be really easy to run as PCs, though Banishers would be fun, too.

>>47415117
>Banishers
>The group most likely to kill each other
>Not Seers, the group who would actually have reason to work together

>>47415260
>Seerers who do kill eacher others often.
>Banishers who are willing to create scientology and work together to kill all other mages.

Yup

>>47415260
>not Banishers working together to kill the Seers, too, while gunning for the Exarchs themselves

http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/vampire-the-requiem/896128-your-terrible-wings

>>47416392

I like the Mekhet and Ventrue ones

>>47417026
Same here, though I'm fond of the Protean one, as well. It's got a nice Tzimisce vibe.

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I'm genuinely considering putting a Campaign for Real Time in my Mage game.
Mages of various paths and orders, including some Acanthus, arguing for a Law against all high-grade retrospective temporal manipulation unsanctioned by the Consilium.

Primarily arguging that what could be a more heinous breach of Wisdom than rewriting the entire progression of history for personal gain. Potentially erasing thousands of people from history, and fucking with the lives of so many more.

Also raising that it creates a temporal arms race requiring a war of retrospective spells and counterspells to maintain stability. "Get your hands off our history" and so forth.

>>47418728
But it takes Archmastery to make the sort of giant changes you're talking about, and archmasters rewrite history by just BECOMING one.

>>47418728
>>47418757
ADDITIONALLY, Archmasters are not bound to consillium law, they are bound to the pax arcane. In fact, the pax prevents them from talking to much part in standard Mage politics.

>>47418757
Man you're late to this party.
Read the rules for Temporal Sympathy in 2e.

>>47418728
It wouldn't surprise me if laws banning screwing with the past except under certain circumstance were common in many Consilium.

>>47418784
The issue of that temporal sympathy isn't going to undo THOUSANDS of lives.

>>47418855
Oh yeah? Forgive the trite'ness of the example, but dig up one of Hitler's bones, then use Temporal Sympathy to give him brain Cancer when he's 5.

>>47418865
And the then a million contingent spells trigger turning you into a puddle and then freezing you, then teleporting you to antarctica where you slowly melt (in excruciating pain) because of global warming.

Anything you can do to change the world, somebody more powerful already thought of.

Mages - there's always a bigger gun.

>>47418881
Yeah, but that's exactly the point.
Because of Temporal Sympathy, you NEED those guns.

Just because we have Anti-Nuclear countermeasures doesn't mean we shouldn't try and stop Nuclear proliferation.

>>47418894
>Just because we have Anti-Nuclear countermeasures doesn't mean we shouldn't try and stop Nuclear proliferation.
I can kind of see a Mage version of this cutscene, just replace nukes with Time Magic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iDYQe8nZSI

>>47418865
First, that wouldn't erase thousands of lives. But, but! Archmasters are constantly preventing shit like that. It's half their job description. Additionally, if we're talking numbers like that, wouldn't you feel it better a law in the Pax anyways? That goes beyond consillium scope.

>>47418959
It would. Butterfly effect.
Even if the rise of Nazi Fascism goes ahead as it likely would have, major planning decisions would have caused a radically different progression of history, ensuring that the vast majority of the world today's population, wouldn't be alive. Sure there would be other people taking their place, but those initial people are gone. Wiped clean from existence and history.

Yes, Archmasters work to prevent stuff like that.
But the fact of the matter is, I'm talking about Consiliums here.
Organisations with no knowledge whatsoever of the Pax.

Plus, even fucking with one person's life has thousands upon thousands of unintended consequences, consequences on a level so low most Archmasters wouldn't give a shit about, but could still wreck lives.

Also it's confusing.

Thus, the Campaign for Real Time.

If someone kills Hitler when he is 6 yo, ww2 still happens but with another leader. Still Hitler get his power out of nowhere, maybe some smarass mage killed Braun, of Friedrich or someone else when they 6 yo and Hitler become thei replacement. To erase ww2 completely you need archmage.

>>47414695
>http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/vampire-the-requiem/896128-your-terrible-wings
I like the Pure much more than the Forsaken. Prior to the Dark Ages book, all evidence suggested to me the Pure were correct, and while not nice, fundamentally the heroes of the werewolf setting.

With the revelation that the silver weakness isn't a curse from Luna, but instead she's protecting them with auspices, they've become firmly wrong and thus the bad guys.

But Predator Kings are still cool.

>>47419635
>If someone kills Hitler when he is 6 yo

Then someone goes back and stops you killing Hitler, so someone goes back to stop them so Hitler dies.

Repeat until all the Time Mages are dead

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While even if there are contentions in place to stop major Time fuckage, your average Mage without Time magic isn't going to want to risk their past being altered. Banning Time magic would be done for several reasons.

1. Time Mages don't want to have to go back in time to undo past events they don't like because it's tricky and they might make things worse.

2. Your average Mage doesn't want to risk having their past changed or any of their friends hurt, especially if they can't do anything about it without help.

3. Changing the past is Unwise as fuck, so some Mages are gonna want that shit restricted for that reason alone.

4. If the past gets fucked up it could cause vendettas, changes in the political landscape, and cause unforeseen damage to different Orders such as the loss of Artifacts and members or the creation of conflict, both inside the Pentacle and with the Seers.

>>47418881
>Mages - there's always a bigger gun.
It's almost like that poster is suggesting an explanation for those bigger guns in the form of the CAMTIM.

>>47419635
I feel like that's not necessarily true. And even then, you could prevent WWII by preventing more than one of the causes. Considering that Great Man Theory is alive and true in the form of Prophet's chosen (which, that's a thing you might have to contend with: Prophet), it's not impossible that History in Mage is NOT one of those things where if you change something it tries to self-correct back to some "norm".

>>47419745
>Banning Time magic would be done for several reasons.
I assume you mean "dumb for several reasons".
Most people seem to worry about changing their personal past, like killing a rival before he's born. Restricting or outright banning it would still be dumb, though.

>>47419664
No they weren't. The Pure were always wrong. They didn't even follow Urfarah's duty. They were never wrong, other than "maybe we shouldn't have killed the Hunter God, no matter how weak she was", which is honestly just fucking pansy talk and brats whining that daddy was a sore loser.
The Pure aren't right because the Pure don't want a return to the Good Ol' Days because they think it will be better, and the natural order, and because they miss Father Wolf. They want a return to the Good Ol' Days because they were on TOP. They were undisputed masters of the three realms and they want that power back. The sole reason they're not Forsaken tribes who want to return the world to the way it was is because they're petulant whiny shits who don't care about their Sacred Duty.

>>47419818
>The Pure were always wrong.
Nonsense. Going by both the Pure and the Forsaken's mythology, they were being punished for the sins of their fathers by Luna. Sins of the father bullshit is just that: bullshit. They had no responsibility to do what Father Wolf did, and no culpability for the patricide of ages past.

Prior to Dark Ages revealing that Auspices are protective, and the curse is not from Luna, the Pure were absolutely correct to oppose her.

>The Pure aren't right because the Pure don't want a return to the Good Ol' Days because they think it will be better, and the natural order, and because they miss Father Wolf. They want a return to the Good Ol' Days because they were on TOP.
Nothing here matters with regards to being right or wrong.

>The sole reason they're not Forsaken tribes who want to return the world to the way it was is because they're petulant whiny shits who don't care about their Sacred Duty.
Duty is a bullshit concept when you're forced into a role without your consent. Werewolves have no duty. The only thing a wolf is obligated to do is serve themselves, and in that regard, a return to older times is better.

Again, pre-Dark Ages and its Neolithic revelations, the Pure were right to tell Luna to fuck off, they had no duties, and the old world was better for them.

>>47419852
the Pure's argument never had anything to do with sins of the father bullshit. As Shamanists, they're more than fine with that, and use it themselves. They blamed Luna for tricking the Werewolves into murdering Urfarah. They reject Auspices because they reject Luna. The Auspice has always been protective, in fact. That's why the Pure--who have no Auspice--have always taken more damage from Silver.

And the Uratha also DID have a duty in the old world. They accompanied Urfarah on the Hunt, and patrolled the Bordermarches. Which, is kind of important when the Pure literally want to destroy the world as it is now to restore it to a former glory they feel is their birthright while also shirking the associated duties. Hell, the Predator King party line is that Mother Wolf deserved to die, but it still cost Paradise. The Pure were never right simply because their issues have always been pettiness.

It honestly feels like you think the Pure are right because you didn't understand the Pure or the Forsaken.

>>47419818
Do you really not see why some Mages would want Time magic restricted? I'm not talking about bans, just certain protocols that have to be followed like alerting the Consillium so everyone can get their protective magic up or someone filing an injunction because it they were going to do would make it so that person never married their wife.

>>47419910
>the Pure's argument never had anything to do with sins of the father bullshit.
The rejection of Luna has everything to do with sins of the father bullshit. She's psychotic, per the shared mythology of the Pure and and the Forsaken.

>And the Uratha also DID have a duty in the old world. They accompanied Urfarah on the Hunt, and patrolled the Bordermarches. Which, is kind of important when the Pure literally want to destroy the world as it is now to restore it to a former glory they feel is their birthright while also shirking the associated duties. Hell, the Predator King party line is that Mother Wolf deserved to die, but it still cost Paradise. The Pure were never right simply because their issues have always been pettiness.

You misunderstand. I am telling you they have no duty. You cannot be forced into a duty, that's not how it works, and no one chooses to become a werewolf. The Pure are not obligated to uphold any duties, and as such, their rejection of said duties is not a mark against them.

>The Auspice has always been protective, in fact. That's why the Pure--who have no Auspice--have always taken more damage from Silver.

You again don't understand. Both the Pure and the Forsaken alike believe their banes are a mark of Luna's anger, divine punishment for the slaying of Father Wolf. The Forsaken repented and pledged themselves, and their curse was lessened.

This is not factually true, per Dark Ages, but it is what both groups believe. And under that belief system, the Pure are in the right; they should not be blamed for other people's actions in the past, and they have no responsibility to pledge themselves.

>It honestly feels like you think the Pure are right because you didn't understand the Pure or the Forsaken.

I understand just fine; you're the one who's wrong here.

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>>47419910
>>47419963
Follow up post to point out the book agrees with me re: the shared mythology of the wolves and the origin of their curses.

>>47419944
I'm agreeing with that. I assumed >>47419745 meant STs banning it would be dumb, since "it would be done" doesn't fit with all the reasons listed, which are reasons that time fuckery is unlikely. But if I misread, yeah. I agree that CAMTIM should be a thing. Because I liked Time Cops.

>>47419963
>>47419987
No, it never had to do with sins of the father bullshit. The Pure hate Luna because they feel Luna tricked the First Pack into murdering Urfarah. You also can be forced into a duty when you're a fucking spiritbeast.
>And under that belief system, the Pure are in the right; they should not be blamed for other people's actions in the past, and they have no responsibility to pledge themselves.
The Pure are not miffed that they're being blamed for something they didn't do. They don't even see it in those terms, because they're raised in a society that can't conceive of thinking of things in that way. Inherited sin is a thing because they come from a world of spirits and essence. Remember, spirits like the Pure more because the Pure let them run amok instead of doing as they should and managing them. Luna's curse has nothing to do with their hate, because they reject her protection from it. They don't want her protection because they hate Luna. Not for cursing them, but for in their eyes tricking them into destroying Paradise.

That is why the Pure are pissed the fuck off whiny children: They feel they were tricked. They were told Urfarah needed to die, but they weren't told that the world would be taken from them if they did. They wanted to be Kings of the Bordermarches. They very much believe that was their birthright, but that it was stolen from them.

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>>47420056
>No, it never had to do with sins of the father bullshit.
Yes, it did. Luna is a crazy bitch, and this unjust punishment is evidence in support of that belief. She's a treacherous psychotic harpy that led the Forsaken astray and punished them for it.

>You also can be forced into a duty when you're a fucking spiritbeast.

No, you can never be forced into duty. Duty only has any significance when it is voluntarily shouldered. Werewolves are thrust into that identity, and as such are under no obligation to uphold ancient principles.

> The Pure hate Luna because they feel Luna tricked the First Pack into murdering Urfarah.

And she punished them for it, yes. It's one of many reasons to hate her. The Pure see Luna as an awful creature.

This is all in the Pure book, man, and the 2e Forsaken book.

>Remember, spirits like the Pure more because the Pure let them run amok instead of doing as they should and managing them.

There is no "should". See the duty bit above.

> Luna's curse has nothing to do with their hate, because they reject her protection from it.

Uhh.. no, the curse definitely plays a part. It's supporting evidence for their view of Luna as a monster. A fickle, evil monster.

>They don't want her protection because they hate Luna.

This is true. The Pure hate Luna. I said that, so I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with. They refuse to bow and scrape and side with the Bitch Mother, and they suffer for it, and that suffering is proof she's a bitch mother.

>That is why the Pure are pissed the fuck off whiny children: They feel they were tricked.

That's not true. The Pure don't think they were tricked; they think the Forsaken were (or that the Forsaken were evil, depends). The Pure knew better. See image.

>They wanted to be Kings of the Bordermarches. They very much believe that was their birthright, but that it was stolen from them.

This bit is true. They want the old world back.

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>>47420166
Dark Era disagrees with you. Its simply apart of werewolves, that as time goes on they associate it with lina rage.

>>47420274
>.
I.. said that. I explicitly said the origin of the curse is a *belief* the werewolves have, a part of their shared mythology, that Dark Eras contradicts.

C'mon, man. Don't argue with me if you're not even reading my posts.

>>47419852
>Again, pre-Dark Ages and its Neolithic revelations, the Pure were right to tell Luna to fuck off, they had no duties, and the old world was better for them.

>>47419664
> Prior to the Dark Ages book, all evidence suggested to me the Pure were correct,
>With the revelation that the silver weakness isn't a curse from Luna, but instead she's protecting them with auspices, they've become firmly wrong and thus the bad guys.

>>47420274
That's what he's saying. He's saying that that one aspect means that the Pure are wrong, and that if it wasn't true, they'd be completely 100% justified.

I don't know why he thinks that one difference would make the Pure wrong, but I also don't understand why he thinks that if the Pure weren't cursed by the bane of silver that they'd be right. The Pure have never been right. Their reasons for being Pure and the things they want to do are stupid and selfish and motivated by greed and megalomania.

>>47420287
>Don't argue with me if you're not even reading my posts.
That's not me, that's someone else. I've stopped arguing with you because I can't deal with you replying to each individual sentence.

>>47420304
>That's not me, that's someone else. I've stopped arguing with you because I can't deal with you replying to each individual sentence.

Can't help you with your autism triggers.

>>47420317
Wouldn't replying to each and every sentence be autism?

>>47420323
No, that's normal communication in writing, as there isn't a real-time back and forth. Someone makes a post saying things, other people address the things said.

Autism is melting down ("can't deal") over normal social interactions.

>>47420345
I wouldn't call an obsessive need to respond to every single sentence normal social interaction. You'll notice that no one else feels the need to do that, as most people realize that any single sentence is often given more context by the sentences around it.

>>47420407
>You'll notice that no one else feels the need to do that
Plenty of people do it. Different sentences convey different bits of data - different claims, different questions, different prompts. As such, they require individual responses.

>I wouldn't call an obsessive need to respond to every single sentence normal social interaction.

Yes, but you're autistic, judging by your inability to deal. What you'd call anything is unimportant.

>"Talking to you is too difficult"
>"Well that's because you're too autistic to deal!"
No, you idiot, it's because I feel like you're an idiot. Calling me autistic because I give up trying to explain a simple concept to you does not mean you 'win'.

>>47420493
You being autistic just means you're autistic. I never said you being autistic means I win.

That you imagined that probably says something about your autism.

>>47418865
yeah hold on let me just go grab hitlers bones from the back yard

>>47420705
Bones are dumb. Use a picture of Hitler.

>>47420705
Fine.
Sympathetic casting with an easily accessible (Magic) exceptional success to bypass all Withstand.

>>47420726
You botched the spell and killed a guy who ctrl+c ctrl+v picture inside wiki page

>>47420751
Shit happens. Do it again. Though I don't think botches can do that.

>>47420274
To be fair, it was Luna's fault until Dark Eras.
>The Pure hate Luna because they feel Luna tricked the First Pack into murdering Urfarah.
The First Pack wasn't involved.
>The Pure are not miffed that they're being blamed for something they didn't do.
Sure, the Forsaken took Pangaea away from them, and then served Luna instead of Father Wolf (real convenient for her). Why should they swear Oaths to her when they think she was involved with Urfarah's death and the demise of Pangaea?

>>47419910
>And the Uratha also DID have a duty in the old world. They accompanied Urfarah on the Hunt, and patrolled the Bordermarches. Which, is kind of important when the Pure literally want to destroy the world as it is now to restore it to a former glory they feel is their birthright while also shirking the associated duties. Hell, the Predator King party line is that Mother Wolf deserved to die, but it still cost Paradise. The Pure were never right simply because their issues have always been pettiness.
You're confusing the Uratha for the First Pack. The Uratha barely ever saw Father Wolf, and even back then had to do their own thing.

>>47420726
I'd rule it would at least have to be an original
But I suspect that if every second rando gets the bright idea to kill hitler that a society of mages whose humanity has been replaced by wisdom have probably already considered such an idea

>>47420801
I find the only way the setting works is if you assume more powerful mages prevent Time shenanigans.

>>47420815
you've always got the exarchs, abyss, and quiescence
if averting a war weakens the lie I'm sure the praetorians would get involved
got no problem with world-changing spells but both logic and narrative should arrange their use into long-running plot points and chapters

WW2 is setup of Forces mages so they can test nuke spell without paradox.

>>47420860
you'd still have paradox
the more important question is
could mages split the atom before the rest of the world knew it was possible? and could they do it before the world even knew of atoms?

>>47420870
Its not like we in the oWoD where properties of matter depends of what generic Jonny think about it.

>>47420870
Yes.
This isn't Ascension.

>>47420884
>>47420883
how would they know there was an atom to split?
if mages knew about the existence of shit before said shit became a thing, they would be ahead of everyone technologically
why weren't they building nuclear power plants in the neolithic age?

>>47420898
>how would they know there was an atom to split?
Matter Unveiling/Knowing spells, probably.

>if mages knew about the existence of shit before said shit became a thing, they would be ahead of everyone technologically
Not really.

>why weren't they building nuclear power plants in the neolithic age?
Because technology isn't just a matter of knowledge.

People have invented and re-invented things dozens of times, but because the infrastructure and society wasn't there to take advantage of it, nobody gave a fuck.

If you went back in time and gave a steam-boiler to a cave man, he'd probably do exactly what the Romans did with it: use it as a cute novelty toy, if even that.

>>47420914
>People have invented and re-invented things dozens of times, but because the infrastructure and society wasn't there to take advantage of it, nobody gave a fuck.
mages also have the ability to talk long distance with the astral realm
they had infrastructure before everyone else did
the people of the neolithic even listened to them and served them
why didn't they use their knowledge to spur on construction and other projects?

>>47420941
This is actually one of the philosophical quandries brought up by the Free Council against the Pentacle.

If the Supernal has symbols for everything, how come some things only get invented later on?

It's part of why the Free Council thinks humans are magical.

>>47420898
Because if they cared about power, they'd just tap into a Leyline.

Mages don't give a shit about stuff like you do.

>>47420941
>mages also have the ability to talk long distance with the astral realm
>they had infrastructure before everyone else did
No, they didn't. An insignificant minority literally cannot "have infrastructure" in a way that is relevant to technology.

It's like saying that because FIVE people knew how to build boilers, the Greeks should have figured out steam-powered cars.

>the people of the neolithic even listened to them and served them
>why didn't they use their knowledge to spur on construction and other projects?
Becaus, again, the REST of society had not yet reached a point where technology was worth anything.

Technology is an investment. A huge investment of time, resources, and energy, but its payoff is incredibly sensitive to the rest of society around it. If you gave a cave man the ability to make a tractor, it would be nearly worthless to him, because the gains (labor multiplication when he isn't even using all the labor he has now) are very small, but the costs (fuel, the metal that goes into the tractor, etc) are very high.

It isn't like Civilization, where you invent a technology and everything just gets better/stronger in that department. Technology asks you to pay $100 instead of $50 for your harvest, with the promise that you'll be able to harvest $300 instead of $100, so long as [long list of other conditions are met], but even if all of that is true, it's still not worth it if you only have $50 of other people to feed.

>>47420898
>why weren't they building nuclear power plants in the neolithic age?
They didn't need to
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS53AA_WaUk

>>47421025
>If you gave a cave man the ability to make a tractor, it would be nearly worthless to him, because the gains (labor multiplication when he isn't even using all the labor he has now) are very small, but the costs (fuel, the metal that goes into the tractor, etc) are very high.

This is true. However, there's an awful lot of earlier technology that, if you could get cavemen to use, would be useful, and mages didn't do that.

For instance, imagine how much lusher the Middle-East would be if ancient mages had helped with better irrigation technology, rather than spoiling the land.

>>47421088
Yeah, but Mages are selfish bastards who only want to work on their own ascension.

>>47421088

Considering the psychology of your typical Mage, them being present in the middle east is probably exactly WHY it's a sucked-dry shithole.

>>47421025
>It isn't like Civilization, where you invent a technology and everything just gets better/stronger in that department. Technology asks you to pay $100 instead of $50 for your harvest, with the promise that you'll be able to harvest $300 instead of $100, so long as [long list of other conditions are met], but even if all of that is true, it's still not worth it if you only have $50 of other people to feed.
great but neolithic people didn't really have money
if it helped the people, it was worth doing
and the wise didn't give them any technology at all
you can use examples like tractors
but they didn't even teach them basic mining techniques

>>47421016
they did in the noelithic, when monsters came into villages and wrecked up the joint
they didn't even figure out walls around their towns

>>47419745
How could you possibly ban Time magic when 1/5 of all Mages have an innate talent for it?

All you'd do is make more apostates/banishers, AND leave the Pentacle unable to deal with Time fuckery when they do it.

>>47421127
while they are selfish, they don't give a shit about ascension, and neolithic mages did exist to help people

>>47421164
There's a difference between knowing things about something, and finding a use for it.

>>47421164
Why would they know "basic mining techniques". The Vinca used fucking stone tools. They hadn't learned how to forge metal that was good for anything but ornamentation yet. Why would they even bother mining?

This is the stupidest argument.

>>47421164
>great but neolithic people didn't really have money
I didn't mean literal dollars you autistic fuck.

Energy, time, resources, technology gobbles MORE of them than just doing it by manual labor, but the payoffs are sometimes larger.

>>47421228
>. They hadn't learned how to forge metal that was good for anything but ornamentation yet. Why would they even bother mining?
because a mage could say
hey guys, you know those rock tools you keep using that suck?
here's a way to get better ones
>>47421256
you literally used dollars and only dollars in your example
and I covered the rest with the communal aspect
and the other poster pointed out the other flaw in your argument (not every technological advance requires a lot of resources)

>>47421169
I mistyped when I wrote ban. I meant heavily restrict fucking with the past.

>>47421285
If no one has made metal tools yet and found their worth, how would your average Mage conceive of it?

>>47421256
While he is nitpicking, you don't seem to know what you're talking about. It's an actual issue in-game, whether Supernal symbols always existed or only existed at certain points. It's why Mages don't use their knowledge to build teleportation devices so they can teleport without paradox. Why they don't summon a Supernal symbol of cold fusion and slip the secrets of it to a Sleeper scientist in his dreams.

Because they don't know either.

>>47421309
>If no one has made metal tools yet and found their worth, how would your average Mage conceive of it?
looking into the future
talking to the supernal spirits of metal

>>47421285
How would the Wise say that.

When they don't know about metal tools either.

Why would the idea "metal tools" even occur to them, when the only conception of "metal" they have is "that shiny rock we make cool jewelry out of that's too soft to otherwise be useful."

>>47421294
Well, they kinda do? In the sense that pointlessly fucking with anything using magic is inherently Unwise. Messing with an area's timeline is going to have the same effect as disrupting its sympathetic connections or ley-lines or just blowing shit up with Forces - getting you a swift and likely fatal visit from the Guardians of the Veil.

>>47421343
Why would they do either of those things when they have literally no conception of "using metal for tools." They only know of like, 2 metals for chrissake. They don't know you can smelt Iron yet. They don't even know about alloys! They only have copper jewelry!

>>47421294
You have a few Mages who maintain temporal stability spells. They notice when things change, and hunt down the people who fucked with Time.

If people are doing it right, then they shouldn't notice.