Warhammer Fantasy General:

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>>47367396
Man, this map is so wonky.
In certain ways I don't mind that, and I understand there are probably good gameplay reasons. But still.

Also, wasn't Mousillion supposed to be a separate faction? Or is it just that southern portion of Lyonesse?

>>47367583
Yeah, Mousillon is its own faction. It's the only Vampire faction outside of Sylvania.

>>47370235
>>47367583
Anybody know if Bretonnia is a playable faction?

>>47371109
They are playable in custom games, but currently no in the campaign, rumors said they will be added in the campaign as free DLC later this year

>>47367396

Warhammer Fantasy/The 9th Age General: Call of Warhammer: The End Times" released TODAY edition

Fixed your typo.

I want to play Chaos Warriors in Total War and I like roleplaying, but I am new to warhammer fantasy and know nothing about their legendary lords. From what I gathered from wiki articles Achaon seems like dark brooding edgelord who want to destroy the world for no apparent reason, Sigvald is run-of-the-mill Slaanesh freak and Kholek is just big monster. So in books and such, do they have actual personalities?

>>47371250
>current year
>playing medieval 2

>>47367396
>Mannfred and Kemmler as Undead Lords
For fuck's sake, why can't we have nice lords ? Mannfred's a stupid dick, and Kemmler's even stupider. Give me Arkhan, Ushoran, Vlad, even the Queen Bitch, but only these two morons is sad.

>>47371481
Not particularly. There are some novels for Archaon, I think, but for the most part the descriptions in the books are all you have to go on.

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So, what would have happened if Storm of Chaos had remained canon? What do you think the fallout of Storm of Chaos would have been? Would Archaon have been penalized by the Chaos Gods for his failure? What would have happened to Valten?

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>A high elf who fought at the side of Aenarion against Chaos
>survived the war just to be caught inside a time rift before the Sundering
>escapes it and arrives in present day Warhammer World just weeks before the End Times

could there be any worse experience?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_6TKPkQu2Q

I keep painting images of the possibilities, like meeting people he might have actually known back then (Malekith, Wood Elf Queen) and what a mad world it would have to seem to him.

>>47367396
Anyone want to help a fantasy bro out and dump some skaven art? I'm going to be making my own skaven battle magic cards since the only deck i found on ebay sold for 60 bucks I'm looking for something parchment looking for the front and something for the backs that's Ruin and Plague themed. I'll post them when I'm done if anyone's interested sometime tomorrow

>>47372520
Arkhan is technically part of the tomb kings, vlad has been dead for centuries, Neff is very hands off with the way she leads, and didn't do much until nagash came back. Mannfred and kemmler are the only undead playable characters mentioned in the rule book that are actually alive and active right now.

>>47374727
How much are we keeping canon? because what should have happened is the undead should have crushed the conclave of light, and the tomb kings become the preeminent threat since they got out of it mostly unscathed.


But to answer the question, archaon gets the favor of the gods taken away and is killed by another chaos champion. The gods all blame each other for the invasion failing and get locked in a huge war, leaving the vulnerable empire safer than it logically should. Grimgor fucks off to the east to take on the chaos dwarfs since he considers them the biggest challenge now. This ignites a slave revolt and the Orc slaves and hobgoblins betray their masters. The chaos dwarfs start hiring the retreating chaos armies to fill their ranks, and soon some start worshipping hashut instead of the big 4.
Dontbkniwnenough about what the skaven did to comment, though I'll say the individual clans sch have their own problems. Pestilence gets REKT by the lizardmen, moulder has to deal with the retreating chaos armies, and skyre sees the chance to replace the grey seers as the preeminent faction. Or we have the skaven attack the vampires for some reason.

With most of the "bad guy" factions out of the way, the empire and bretonnia can rebuild. Thanks to the empire taking the worst of the invasion, bretonnia emerges as the greatest power of the old world, for now. Many of the Knights who crusaded into the empire feel that they are owed the lands they liberated, and tensions with bretonnia reach an all time high. Kislev is pretty much gone, and many refugees live in the empire now to boost the reeling population. mercenaries from tilea make up a large portion of the empires armies as they went mostly unscathed during the storm of chaos. Myrmidia worship becomes all the more common, and one day may pass the church of Ulric.

So do any of the Chinese recasters do scenery?

>>47376039
>How much are we keeping canon?

I guess everything except the ass-pull ending they did to restore the status quo.

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>>47375676
Okay, have some Skaven.

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>>47376768

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>>47376792

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>>47376806

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>>47376815

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>>47376832

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If I was to start a WFRP game where the players are former soldiers (I'm imagining the game starting at the aftermath of a battle), should I have the players roll randomly for their careers, or select something military related?
My general idea is to have them having been on the losing side of a battle (the decisive battle of a civil war in the Empire) and adventure in this new era. I guess they could be conscripts, if they rolled randomly.

>>47374727
The war is over but the fighting isn't done. If you read the WFRP 2nd edition books, they talk about how the Storm has passed but some things are still cocked up. It's the timeline that my WFRP campaigns are set in, starting from the aftermath of the war which has extended 20 years into the future.

>>47374727
Yes, it's non-canon... In Archaeons unconscious mind. In my mind, he got knocked out by Grimgor and dreamt Age of Smegmar while the Chaos hordes swarmed back into the Chaos Wastes from whence they came. The Chaos Gods get pissed and start fighting again, before turning their attention towards this new Imperium in the greater universe. Brettonia and the Empire rebuild after the great war, but it's a long process and much is forever lost like the Conclave of Light. Kislev is gone, or if it exists in some form, it will never be a big player in Old World politics ever again.

The Lizardmen due to their victory over Pestilens, begin to actually rebuild their civilization and make contact with those lost in the Dark Continent. In addition, the Lizardmen city in Albion arises to new heights and becomes the premier naval power of the Old World. This puts Brettonia and the Empire on edge, but the Lizards claim to have no designs on human civilization... The sun may one day never set on their empire, but all in good time in accordance with the Old One's plan.

The Under Empire has entered a period of stagnation. At least for a moment, with the Clans bickering over the recent loss of Chaos. Thanqoul is on the run from Gutter Runners after Skyre does away with the Grey Seers, him getting rather blamed for Archaon's failure. They need time to rebuild until they can once again torment the Man Things. The Dwarves enter a period of reclamation in which they retake several mines from their enemies. In addition to finally collecting on quite a few grudges, with Bugman getting avenged.

The Greenskins go on the rampage in the east, smashing the Chaos Dwarves before Grimgor sunders into Cathay. Cathay fared poorly, the complete opposite of what happened in the Time of Ending with Chaos Marauders warring with Penguin Beastmen for control of the burning ruins. Grimgor destroys them both, and now squats in the once great palace of the Dragon Empire.

>>47376848
If you have specific roles in mind, let them choose. If they can be anything, like camp followers, cooks, etc, then roll randomly.

For example, having a squire, noble, soldier, burgher if they're part of a general's junior staff. On the other hand you might get a Peasant, a Vagabond, a Runebearer and a Hedge Wizard, who might have been following the army without any specific jobs.

>>47376919
The few surviving humans in Cathay now farm (and get farmed) for their greenskinned Masters. But Grimgor, being the greatest Ork that ever lived, grows tired of this and eventually starts contemplating a return to the lands of the distant west. Nippon is ignored by both the writers, and the setting. Some Orks try to invade it, but their invasion fleet gets destroyed by a great Typhoon. Grimgor considers the Samurai to be boring opponents. The Greenskins are still alive and dangerous, and are fully looking forward to round II with the forces of Order. Ind... Eh, let's just go with Endhammer and let the Beastmen become a interesting Army.

Now the real winners? The Undead. The Tomb Kings are one of the strongest powers in the old World, as are the Vampires. Brettonia and the Empire may exist in a state of peace for now, but some of the Carlsteins believe this to be temporary, with them surveying the two for weakness. They are the main threat to the Old World. Finally, Chaos has taken a back seat in the villain department...

Oh, and Araby is now Skavenville or controlled by fantasy ISIS.

>>47376922
I never thought about having them in specific roles! That's good idea!

>>47377125
Yep, they don't even have to be important. They can be bee watchers for all the general cares. For extra fun, make one of them Head Bee Guy and watch as the others grab at this imaginary title.

Works for me most of the time.

Total War Warhammer is nearly here.

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>>47377763
Don't remind me. I can't play it on the computer I have, and saving up for it will take quite a while. And by a while, I mean months.

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Tell me about your WFRP BBEG.

One in my previous campaigns was a Chaos lord who escaped the ending of the universe. Lord Venneraxis as he called himself, was dying from his wounds, weak and pitiful, until he happened upon an altar of the dark gods. With only a handful of souls to power the realm of chaos, the gods had regressed into their base emotions. Hope, fear, rage, pleasure. Upon the altar he found an amulet that granted him eternal life, and a weapon. The First Spear, a spear that embodied the Chaos Gods. Seeing reality collapsing all around him, he used the amulet to travel into the past to make sure that the war never ends. Working against both mortals, Chaos and everything in between, he wants the status quo to remain. He has seen reality nearly unmade and desperately wants to prevent that.

>>47372520
All the starting factions will be getting a third lord as free LC. I think Wurrzag is the next orcs and gobs lord. Whatever happened to Zacharias the everliving? or whatever his name was, necrach rode a zombie dragon a few editions ago.

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>>47379555
There are a few conflicting sources, but Zacharias has one of two endings.

Either he:
challenges his master Melkior, loses, and then drains a dragon of its blood and challenges Melkor again only to win the second time around and take his blood.
OR: Melkior challenges Wsoran, loses, and has his body possessed. Zacharias' fate is unknown if this body-switching is possible.

http://m.uploadedit.com/ba3s/1463888458528.rtf

A few might remember the conversation about this back in December. I wrote this shortly after, only updating it now. I want to be better, as I have a few projects stabled for later. Namely a book about the Crusades against Araby, probably a series. But it's at the same time I'm running a WFRP game online, so my time is very much limited.

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>>47379648

I think Zacharias was in End Times Nagash, he refused to bow and Nagash killed him.

>>47380624
It's quite possible, but I ignore almost all End Times fluff.

I'd sooner trust myself in a weeklong drunken haze.

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I'm buying my copy the day it comes out... Can't wait to get Bretonnia in this!! Are you guys looking forwards to the online or offline play? Are campaigns multiplayer?

Anybody have the skirmish rules from the back of 6E core? All the scans I've found stop right before them.

>>47380664
Only fluff I like is Nagash returning, although not how, and whatever it is that gives Neferata and Arkhan their sweet new models.

I'd dump the rest. Glottkin aren't dependent on End Times fluff to exist after all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkMe1KHdllE

>High King Edition of Total Warhammer sold out

Fuck. Well, that's what I get for waffling. Guess I'll wait until it gets a discount at Christmas on Steam or something.

>>47376039
I like this. Fuck GW suck at handling their setting.

>>47380766
Offline and no. Personally I just want to get Grimgor or Azhag and finish what Gorbad started by razing the empire to the ground.

>>47367396
THe good part of that map is the more east-west border between the empire and Bretonia

The bad part is everything else.

>>47372520
>>47375676
And honestly, Neff is just a petty assholewho tears down anyone else that finds success.

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I wish tuskgors etc had better models.

>>47376589
Speaking of recasters, where can I find them?

>>47383677
Go away GW.

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>>47383714

>>47383677
Ask the 40k guys.

>>47376039
Continuing on.

Valten never fights Archaon, but he does kill several notable chaos champions and delivers the final blow on kbandtha. Many fear there will be a divide in the empire as most want Valten as emperor instead of Karl Franz. Huss reveals he had a vision, that he, Valten and Franz form a trinity of sigmars mortal aspects, like the father son and Holy Spirit. Karl Franz is The aspect of sigmar the emperor, Valten is The hammer of sigmar, and Huss is the voice of Sigmar. Karl Franz, wounded at some point in the war, maintains the political side of the empire and focuses all of his attention on restoring it to glory. Huss continues to journey to the far corners of the empire, preaching the true word of sigmar. Valten leads an army made up of many Knights, warrior priests and flagellants to where the fighting is thickest, foes falling with each sweep of ghal Maraz. Sigmar himself was freed from the vortex at some point, and already imperials are starting to notice that the power of sigmar is growing. In the realm of dreams, he sets out to unite the old world gods into a pantheon that can stand against the chaos gods should they attack in force again. Some, like shylla and Verena, join immediately. Others like Taal, Myrmidia and Manaan are more difficult, and it may be ages before an agreement is made.

Malekith is killed (or is he?...) during his failed invasion of ulthuan. The dark elves split up into various warring factions, lead by Morathi, hellebron and Mallus darkblade.

The ogres were split up during the storm of chaos. Greasus goldtooth commands the largest portion, still remaining in the mountains of mourn. Many joined chaos, many more joined Grimgors WAAGH against the chaos dwarfs. A significant portion of the ogres that (mostly) fought for the conclave are given land in the middle mountains by Karl Franz. His hope was to keep the ogres from menacing the empire, while also having a formidable army to clear out/contain Brass keep

I want to start a Mordheim game with people who are not all that into tabletop. While I'm unsure of what to get exactly, I'll probably go with a few models for an Empire, Ork, Chaos and Skaven Warband plus some terrain.

Do you guys think that's a good idea or should I just go for Silver Tower, as that is more straightforward and easier to get in one set?

I'm also very inexperienced at running a game, which is another reason why I'm considering Silver Tower. Of course any suggestions besides ST for a tabletop game are welcomed, the main reason I mentioned ST is because it's the most readily available.

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>>47384775
>>Silver Tower
Fuck that noise.

Don't worry about inexperience. You get it by playing a game and making mistakes. You'll have a blast even though you're probably going to do it wrong for a while. So long as you aren't friends with a bunch of rules lawyering cunts. The only thing that really matters is if your heart is into it.

>>47384810
Was just mentioning Silver Tower because of the easy access. Assembling all the bits for Mordheim is quite a hassle, but I guess thats part of the fun.

You wouldn't have any suggestions for a "buy this box and you're good" kinda deal, which is the main reason why I had mentioned ST.

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Oh hey anons, remember earlier in the week I said I was at a tournament this weekend, read up on some skaven tactica, and was panicking because it was completely different from what I use?

Well, I came 2nd, 3 points behind the guy who won. So it didn't work out too bad!

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>>47384915
>>2nd
So you lost-failed?
jk Good job.

>>47384889
I would have recommended Free Company but I'm pretty sure GW discontinued them in their ongoing war against good taste. State Troops would make a decent replacement, however. Hell, if you want, use paper stand ins for models so you can get a taste for the rules. I remember using empty sliders for entire units when me and my friends would play massive battles.

>>47380895
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22702196/warhammer%20skirmish%20booklet.pdf

How popular is the Warhammer Fantasy RPG in general terms compared to like Pathfinder or WoD ?

>>47379555
>I think Wurrzag is the next orcs and gobs lord.
That sucks. They need a goblin hero.

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>End Times

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>>47385250
Hard to say, but its skub is definitely greater. WFRP 3rd edition belongs in prison with child molesters.

>>47385295
>>Bad Writing Times

>>47384915
Hey congrats mate!! that's not half bad at all

>>47385250
If you're going to play warhammer fantasy rpg, go 2nd... seriously, it's the best and least "Age of sigmarized"

So... where do you guys buy your fantasy miniatures now that the GW is pretty much empty of the old stuff ?

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Empire army came yesterday.

Maybe some greatswords and obviously a Mage and I feel like this is done.

Flagellants? Demigryph riders?

I'm not going Steam Tank unless I see a really good deal for one.

>>47385395
Ebay. Some TP retailers still have stock too.

>>47385415
>>Flagellants? Demigryph riders?
Why not both?

>>47383354
Here's a borderline heretic thought: use converted AoS goregruntas

>>47383354
Where have you found that colored artwork? Beastmen didn't get an 8th edition armybook

>>47385062
Thanks, but that doesn't contain the actual rules. They are on pages 242-246 of the main book. Says it on 2nd page of this booklet. Thanks though.

>>47371109
>>47371225
CA have confirmed that there will be a faction released for free(after a few free lords and heroes with new schools of magic and a free unit for the VC which BETTER FUCKING BE BLOOD DRAGONS), and as Bretonnia is basically finished in art and mostly finished in roster. They're just missing campaign depth.

So yes, they'll be released for free, as they have confirmed one faction is to be free and nothing else fits. MAYBE Kislev but that's incredibly unlikely given how they're just empire-clone Chaos fodder at release.

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>>47386870
RULE BRETONNIA

>>47386903
You can fuck around with them in custom battles at launch with their 75% complete roster as well. They seem to lack depth and balance and most signs point to underperformance right now though.

>>47386870
the encyclopedia has secret bretonnia pages with quests, buildings and technologies

>>47384915
>3 stabs
Fixed-patched that for you

Congratulations, have any noteworthy moments to share?

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I'm hyping so hard about total war and yet I still have got years and years again before I can commemorate my daughteru

>>47385357
got the same feeling myself from skimming the different edition rulebooks

>>47380624
from memory he wanted to share power with Nagash, which obviously didn't go down well
>>47372520
I'm fine with Kemmler purely because he was the first Fantasy character ever made. Mannfred sucks ass though

wud u pat a rat?

>>47384915
Give us details, anon. I'd like to hear how it all went down.

>>47387714
wud u cuddel a gobbo?

>>47385250
WFRP is fairly obscure compared to Shitfinder or even WoD, but it's extremely easy to get ahold of the 2e and even some 1e books, and the system is easy to houserule and tweak to fix its bugbears, unlike Shitfinder.

3rd was a board game and is not discussed in polite company.

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>>47387848
Cudgel maybe.

>>47374727
Ostland and Hochland are absorbed partially or in whole by Nordland, Middenland, and Talabecland.

Archaon is murdered by another Chaos chosen while he is still weak and the horde dissolves into savage infighting, slowly disintegrating over a period of years.

The north of the Empire and Kislev are plagued with the remnants of Archaon's horde. This results in them getting poorer and the south pushing political advantages.

Bretonnian knights-errant who fought in the errantry war and survived start getting ideas about ruling lawless areas of the Empire. Some are shitty retards and hated, some are canny enough that the peasants and more powerful nobles tolerate them.

The High Elves are attacked by the Dark Elves again and nothing relevant happens because both are too weak to get shit done.

Grimgor gets huge nerd cred for humiliating the chosen of chaos and goes back east to chimp out on Cathay, Ind, and maybe Nippon if he's feeling his oats.

Skaven fail to capitalize on the weakness of the Empire, being too busy fighting with one another after Pestilens got their shit pushed in, trying to take advantage of the new power vacuum. Thanquol somehow escapes blame or punishment yet again.

Dwarfs are able to reclaim some turf, but it's a 'two steps forward, one step back' sort of thing due to losses taken. They can't afford to overextend with Grimgor fagging around and the undead surely up to some bullshit.

Chaos Dwarfs face a disaster of untold proportions, having gambled on Archaon and lost. The slaves rise in revolt. The dawi zharr get a taste of what real dwarfs deal with every day.

>>47387861
>WFRP is fairly obscure
any tips on trying to find a group for it online ?

>>47388025
It's not too hard actually, I found a group on sup/tg/ just by asking. Warhammer still has a lot of fans and the system is easy to learn/teach to newcomers.

>>47388025
Make a roll20 profile and search. Beyond that, I can't say much.

>>47387991
Oh, forgot some.

Bretonnia is sitting pretty, relatively speaking. They're giving thought to retaking Marienburg again, which keeps Karl Franz up at nights. (That, and the whole schism caused by Valten.)

Tilea is fat with mercenary loot.

Estalia is Sir-Not-Appearing-in-this-Game, as usual.

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Valten was clearly superhuman, and was able to go toe to toe with archaon until he gets stabbed through the chest/cheapshotted by a verminlord. That being said, who is the strongest character in the setting you can see Valten besting in a fight?

>>47385395
Reaper, Mierce, Ral Partha, Avatars Of War, pretty much everybody honestly.

>>47387647
Its kind of poetic how GW ignored the first Warhammer character for the longest time, then turned him into a moron who was objectively wrong to fluff up their newest villain, then killed him off unceremoniously.

>>47389646
Warhammer Fantasy power ranking:
1) Drachenfels (Genevieve series only)
2) Gotrek
3) Aenarion
4) The first Grimnir
5) End Times Nagash (with Black Pyramid)
6) Caledor The Dragontamer
7) End Times Archaon
8) End Times Nagash (without Black Pyramid)
9) Valten (Storm of Chaos)
10) End Times Sigmar
11) Settra The Imperishable
12) Alarielle (Sons Of Ellyrion series)
13) Great Horned Rat
14) Teclis
15) Malekith
16) Morathi
17) Tyrion
18) End Times Alarielle
19) Thanquol (nobody else has killed more Skaven)
20) End Times Drachenfels

Not on the list: Slann, because for all the things they're stated to be able to do in fluff they basically never actually do it. But Kroak would be #5, Maz would be #7.

>>47390395
GW is synonymous for waste of potential

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>>47387077
>>47387728
Thanks anons!

First match was against daemons, fought to a draw. He kept getting 4+ wards due to Reign of Chaos and looked like he was going to get a major victory, but I managed to claw it back in the last few rounds by Cloud of Corruption-ing the remainder of his units and turning his Slaanesh character into a clanrat.

Second match was against high elves, I utterly smashed him. Won 19-1, would have been 20-0, but we ran out of time because he played so slow. Only thing he killed was a 65pt engineer.

Final match was against another skaven player, guy was being a bit of a dick and bragging he was outwitting me when I was getting shit dice rolls at the start. Beat him thanks to liberal applications of an Abomination to the face.

Was a really fun tournament, will definitely go back again if it runs again. Got a shiny trophy out of it too.

As for noteworthy moments:

>Slaves beating and running off unit of dragon princes
>HE mage blowing up twice
>Turning opponent's BSB and grey seer into clanrats
>My 1 wound left grey seer taking a wound from a warpstone token, miscasting, then taking an extra wound on top of that
>Both units of gutter runners not showing up on their first turn in every game

Got about 40 Plague Monks off ebay for about £25. Bnib. Decent deal. The models aren't great, but I really like plague monks.

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>>47390798
>Like-liking worst-bad clan

>>47390579
Except for some things like the Horus Heresy that they beat into the ground and fuck up royally.

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>>47390964
>Think-plotting the Pestilent Brotherhood is one clan
>Not run-scurrying to join us in Horned Rat's glorious darkness
>Shit-worst clan not being Manthing-wannabe Mors

>>47390538
>gotrek ranked above aenarion and the God that BTFO him in the last book
>no abhorash, Gilles Le breton or Grimgor
>horned rat on this list why?
>no chaos characters other than archaon
>fucking gotrek wank

This list could use some serious rearranging, starting with removing the gotrek wank. Gotrek above Kroak is just objectively wrong

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>>47390646
>Beat him thanks to liberal applications of an Abomination to the face.
kek

>>47376589
yeah, not much in the way of fantasy though

>>47385741

Someone probably colored like 40k 5th Edition art work used to be colored.

>>47391735

Perhaps that is a sign that the Horus Heresy was always flawed.

>>47390538
More like
1. Kroak
2. Slaan
3. Kbandtha


1. Nagash
2. Aenarion
3. Caledor the Dragontamer
4. Sigmar Returned (bound in mortal shell otherwise would be nagash tier)
5. End times Archaon
6. Teclis
7. Malekith
8. Settra The Imperishable
9. Morathi
10. Orion
11. Alarielle & Ariel
12. Abhorash
13. Gilles le Breton/ Green Knight
14. Tyrion
15. Grimgor
16. End times Drachenfels
17. Dragon Emperor
18. Kroq-Gar
19. Morghul
20. Valkia

>>47397504
>morghur
>even listed

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Does anyone have a decent quality full pdf of this? I'm collecting all the 8th ed books and I've found every one besides this bastard.

>>47400426
Op/first resources pastebin/mega link/fantasy/armybooks/dark elves

Have you found a complete daemons armybok? Ours is missing page 11 iIrc (one about slaanesh realm)

>>47400488
Thanks!

And I just checked my Daemon book, it's missing page 11. I never noticed till now because I'm so used to daemon fluff from 40k I skipped it

>>47396425
>Perhaps that is a sign that the Horus Heresy was always flawed.
Justifying falls to chaos as results of logic and conscious reasoning is inherently flawed.

>>47391735
The FW HH books are pretty good and the novels are hit-or-miss but have a lot of enjoyable reads. They're dragging it out obviously but they haven't destroyed it yet imo

>>47392537
Aenarion is known for killing four Greater Daemons at once.
Gotrek has faced and defeated an army.

Abhorash is not very strong. Green Knight either, at least not on this scale. Grimgor I put on the list, rearranged it, then forgot to add him back.

Fuck Chaos, you get all the attention all the time.

>>47390395
>then turned him into a moron who was objectively wrong to fluff

How? Kemmler was smart enough to detect Nagash manipulating him like a puppet. He played along and nearly fucked over Nagash's plan.

He was objectively right about Nagash being a loser and that Chaos Gods being the true powers and the winning side.

His only mistake is not being strong enough to beat Arkan. Even then the mage battle between them came close.

You just see what you want, anon, with no regard to what's written.

>>47397504
>Abhorash
>Above Neferata

Dude's only strength is being good with a sword, Neferata is literally the first vampire and second greatest necromancer. Not to mention in End Times Nagash gave her a massive boost in power, which Abhorash didn't.

End Times Drachenfels was really weak, he shouldn't even be on the list. He was barely Kemmler tier.

>>47400638
Or not even knowing his 24/7 companion for decades isn't a mindless undead.

Or not being a useless hobo with no plans other than fucking up those of others.

Or even falling to Chaos in the first place and submitting to another power.

>>47400651
>Gotrek has faced and defeated an army.

That was after his ascension to godhood after Grimnir imparted his divinity on him. So he should be more or less equal to Grimnir.

Also where are Archaon and Be'lakor on that lift?

>>47400666
If Chaos is the "winning side", why the fuck did we get Age of Sigmar? Why did anything that happened in Age of Sigmar happen? How is it that it is canon, from the writers, that had Elves, Dwarfs, and Men banded together Chaos could not have destroyed the world? Only three mortal races, with the only requirement being them not going full-retard, could keep Chaos at bay.

Warhammer lore is literally "Evil will always win because good is dumb." Horus Heresy, End Times, the only reason Chaos wins is because the only protagonists in Warhammer are idiot pieces of shit that were originally written as ironic jokes that the humorless machine that is modern Games Workshop can't grasp the purpose of.

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>>47400708
>Also where are Archaon and Be'lakor on that lift?
Where they belong.

>>47400732
>Why did anything that happened in Age of Sigmar happen?

We know why it happened. GW wanted to rise failing sales and thought by simplifying the setting/gameplay and making it more like 40k they'd make a winner

>>47400694
>Or not being a useless hobo with no plans other than fucking up those of others.

The Chaos Gods promised him a power if he screws over Nagash.

>Or even falling to Chaos in the first place and submitting to another power.

Is it or is it not his backstory that he lost his necromancy powers and had to pray for the Chaos Gods to restore them in exhange for his promise that he will spread death in their name.

That is his fluff in the 8th VC army book. We can look in past editions to check.

>>47400732
>If Chaos is the "winning side", why the fuck did we get Age of Sigmar? Why did anything that happened in Age of Sigmar happen?

Because Chaos won and AoS is the aftermath of them devouring the world?

>>47400732

I don't see how AoS means Chaos somehow didn't win in Fantasy. The Mortal Realms are merely another board for them to play on. They won in AoS too and only their inherent weakness of eventually preying upon each other has allowed others to start putting up a fight once more.

>How is it that it is canon, from the writers, that had Elves, Dwarfs, and Men banded together Chaos could not have destroyed the world?

Where is this stated? Certainly not the End Times.

>Warhammer lore is literally "Evil will always win because good is dumb

In Fantasy and 40k it was and is that Chaos has a good chance of winning because concepts such as time and resources are meaningless to it. It's in no rush to accomplish its schemes and there are always those willing to fill its ranks.

Chaos also arguably lost the Horus Heresy.

>the only protagonists in Warhammer are idiot pieces of shit that were originally written as ironic jokes that the humorless machine that is modern Games Workshop can't grasp the purpose of.

And Chaos was heavily stolen from Moorcock., I'm not sure what you're trying to say with this "It's ironic" argument.

>>47400841
>Where is this stated? Certainly not the End Times.

IIRC.

I think he means the bit in the epilogue of End Times Khaine where Archaon says that if the races of the world had united, they would have stood a chance. Them being divided has sealed their fate.

>>47400908

That's hard to take as fact considering Archaon is not omniscient. Lileath, who it could be argued would know more than Archaon, said from the beginning that there was never any hope. Granted the possibility exists that she could have been blinded as well.

>>47400772
Chaos is one sloppy eater

>>47400938
>Archaon is not omniscient
He is conscious enough of the military power behind him


Elves are shit and are repeatedly proven to lie to get what they want, in this case to get outta there with that new Eden plan.

>>47400841
>I'm not sure what you're trying to say with this "It's ironic" argument.
Not him, but warhammer is born as a setting rather than a story: In a setting you can throw whatever you want as long as it looks funny or cool (which sums up a great deal of warham's creative process), while stories require more justifications and consistency, what can become part of a setting may as well be an unlikely part of a story; it's not difficult to understand (or to see first hand in GW publications and writers' opinions) that the jump from setting character to story character may either leave holes in the latter or require changes of the former.

>>47401146

Stories take place in settings and the two can not be divorced. Just because a setting changes does not mean it suddenly stops being a setting.

This argument and full on embracing of the status quo is just trying to hide the truth that GW fucked up and was too cowardly in how they handled basically being written into a corner with Fantasy.

Heaven forbid a setting require justifications or consistency, that it have a set of rules dictating how things work. If anything an advancing setting behooves GW's main goal of producing models because then they don't have to come up with slap shod reasons for why something is present.

"Oh, this particular faction always had access to this thing, it was just never written about."

"Oh, X has been fighting with this new army we're introducing for hundreds of years, it's just non one ever took notice."

>>47400908
Hasn't Archaon been going around destroying universes or something? What the hell were the races of the world supposed to do, use the power of the winds of magic to form Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann and shoot a giant drill made of high magic combined with dark magic at him?

>>47401335
>Hasn't Archaon been going around destroying universes or something?

That was after the World-That-Was was destroyed. The Chaos Gods rewarded him by making him a literal demigod.

>What the hell were the races of the world supposed to do, use the power of the winds of magic to form Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann and shoot a giant drill made of high magic combined with dark magic at him?

The Incarnates plan wasn't about stopping Chaos. It has about buying time for Lileath to build her Sanctuary and secure its future.

>>47401296
I'm not saying that a setting absolutely doesn't need consistency and justifications, just that it needs less compared to a story.
I'm not even saying that setting and story are incompatible, but that the creative process behind one is different than the other.

>it's full on embracing the status quo
Now you're just projecting, Carnac, that's correlation not causation: The setting can still be the same even after shakes of the status quo like the death of characters and the introduction of new factions.

>GW fucked and wrote themselves into a corner
Because there was literally no other way to advance the timeline, right? Words or prophesies are impossible to change.
They did it again and will continue to do so anyway, as long as they push chaos as an united faction: When writing a setting and establishing a win condition for a faction and a character with awareness of it you already end up in a corner, every setting will inevitably fall into a corner or into repetitive Saturday morning cartoons' plots.

Introducing things in the timeline's end as you make them end up tasting of cheap railroading, how many ancient evils can you awake?

Why would it be better to create a setting while writing a story and introduce things as you go rather than creating stories while writing a setting and introduce things whenever they would fit better instead?


There's only one point of view that sees continuous linear additions and changes for changes sake as better than more cautious approaches and that is marketing.
No wonder the creatives left when the suits took over.

>>47401623

I'm not Carnac

>The setting can still be the same even after shakes of the status quo like the death of characters and the introduction of new factions.

Settings can very much remain the same, but the 40k and Fantasy fanbases are the only ones I've seen who use arguments like setting and story being completely divorced from one another and their games being one and not the other, completely horrified of any possible change or advance in the timeline. This during a period when such a thing is accepted practice in other games, even one created by one of the original creators of 40k and Fantasy.

>Because there was literally no other way to advance the timeline, right?

There are, but by writing OOGA BOOGA ARCHAON CHAOS at the end of every or almost every timeline in the 8th Edition army books, GW proved they weren't brave enough to some massive retconning on the part of Archaon or just tossing him out of the game all together. Archaon could have been another Asavar Khul in another Great War Against Chaos and with better writing it wouldn't have come off as dreck like the aftermath of Storm of Chaos.

You seem to think I'm in favor of constant radical change and additions for the sake of them, I'm not. What I am against however is picking a point and saying you're not going to bother going beyond it, which is what GW did in Fantasy until the end and what it's currently doing in 40k.

>>47401623
>Now you're just projecting, Carnac

Why did you assume that anon was me, anon? Seriously, anon, you just keep doing it.

Can you not have a rational discussion on this board without invoking me. Seriously. I am like your god or something.

>>47401796
>There are, but by writing OOGA BOOGA ARCHAON CHAOS at the end of every or almost every timeline in the 8th Edition army books, GW proved they weren't brave enough to some massive retconning on the part of Archaon or just tossing him out of the game all together. Archaon could have been another Asavar Khul in another Great War Against Chaos and with better writing it wouldn't have come off as dreck like the aftermath of Storm of Chaos.

From what I read from Gav's writing on the Interweb was that Storm of Chaos was suppose to advance the storyline and give the setting a new Status Quo. Indeed, GW went with the results of Storm of Chaos for like the early books of 7th ED but then started to ignore it happened in mid and late 7th ED and then wrote it out completely in 8th ED.

I wonder what the hell happened in mid 7th ED, that made them decide to ignore Storm of Chaos and work on the ground work for 8th ED lore.

>>47401865
>I wonder what the hell happened in mid 7th ED, that made them decide to ignore Storm of Chaos and work on the ground work for 8th ED lore.
IIRC the studio guys were massive chaos fanboys and they threw an autistic fit.

>>47401881
>studio guys

Who? Gav is an Elf dude and the guy who wrote down the SoC results. Andy Chambers is 40K only.

I can not name anyone who was a Chaos fanboy in that period or even now.

>>47401623
>Words or prophesies are impossible to change.
They can be falsehoods and Archaon could have discovered it the hard way, which is being staked on top of the Ulricsberg and used as a chaos piniata.

>>47401960
>Be'lakor rewrites reality and resets the timeline to ensure the prophecy goes as planned
>No one can stop him from doing it except the Chaos Gods
>World is still screwed

>>47402083
>Belakor doesn't do that because he is a shitty plot device and nothing else
>GW puts forth new content in the game rather than redoing the same old boxes for 10 years with chariots on top of them.
>warhammer is still half their profits

>>47386981
>>47386870

http://whenc.totalwar.com/#/characters/wh_main_brt_bretonnia

http://whenc.totalwar.com/#/units/wh_main_brt_bretonnia/cavalry---chariots

Here are the charaters and units.

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>>47390538
>>47397504
>no grombrindal

Lore question, is there a reason why dwarfs don't use spears/pointed weapons? They make the most sense with their fighting style (even if not the best weapons crunch-wise)

>>47402662
They did in 5th Edition. Not sure why they changed in 6th.

didnt want to make a new thread for this question so i'll ask here; i've recently been getting into oldhammer (in terms of lore) and am interested in bretonnia having previously been more pre-revolution france than fake arthurian knights, where can i find fluff on that? (i've read the section in wfrp 1e on it)

>>47400772
A just desert for the retards who want the story in a wargame to "progress".

>>47404461
oh yes, how dare people want more than the same stale lore regurgitated over and over for 30+ years, clearly they deserve to have their entire game destroyed

>>47402740
I think that's really it.
That's why they were able to retcon it so thoroughly - there was very little material to start with.

>>47404539
I can't think of a single example where the progression of a well-liked setting worked well.

c.f. The Sundering in the Forgotten Realms. Or Crisis on Infinite Earths.

>>47404577
Battletech, until the Jihad.

https://youtu.be/HPIQkw7UEnc

Lord Tremendous is back!

http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20160524T09&p0=239&msg=Total+war%3A+Warhammer&font=slab

FIFTEEN HOURS

>>47402662
I assume it's just a thematic decision, there was a time each army still tried to do its own specialized niche, both in aesthetic and mechanics, adherence to a certain, even somewhat strict, aesthetic code was part of the development of these armies
I've always thought that shield heavy, pike infantry could have been rad for dwarfs.


If I had to bet on a lore reasons though it would be because pikes and spears and javelins each falls in an aspect dwarfs are lacking compared to others: be it torsion, no cavalry tradition and each dwarf having a stronger individuality in the way armor and weapons are chosen and made (they're often family relics and status symbols too) where pikes would be the result of soldiers more organized as a group.

But this doesn't enough to make polearms completely absent.


P.S.
Only after having written the post I realized what you meant with "pointed weapons"

>>47405872
Pointy weapons belongs to pointy ears.

>>47405872
>I've always thought that shield heavy, pike infantry could have been rad for dwarfs.
That was one of the few things I've liked in the Hobbit movie, when they formed that wall of shields and pointy sticks.
Of course the pointy eared princesses had to ruin it by charging into the orc charge

>>47405387
Who even is lord tremendous?

>those burning miniatures
>calls himself a whore numerous times
oh...it's that guy

>>47402662
Dwarfs like weapons that resemble tools, such as hammers and axes.

You get it? because they make things. Yeah that's the gist of it.

>>47380766
Mostly offline.
I occasionally play TW games online, but it usually ends in me getting roflstomped.

First and foremost I'll try to get my mitts on some modding tools and give my Chaos Warriors some properblack iron armour.
and/or Tzeentch colours

>>47406020
Spears make holes.
Just like dwarves.

>>47401918
No, Gav is an Eldar dude. He fucking hates Elf lore, that's why he axed all of it.

>>47406063
Okay imagine this.

Screwdriver spears.

I still shudder when I think about what we could have had if GW had pushed the 6th edition spirit longer
>plastic kislevites
>plastic tilean infantry
>plastic estalian infantry
If those kits were good GW would have swallowed the historicals market whole.

>>47406473
Sounds slaaneshi. Go on.

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>>47406481
>GW
>smart business practices

>>47406481
>have normal units for the basic factions to steal historical market, then have elite units of similar models covered in more warhammer styled blings to expand tilea, estalia, catai, nippon and araby
>and then chariots monsters and magic things

>>47406575
And I wouldn't have minded lots of blinged chariots for Tilea, it would have been absolutely perfect.

>we will never have multi-parts pirate infantry

>>47406642
The real bummer is
>we will never have zombie pirate kits

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>>47406694
At least we have Seraphon™, Aelves™, Duardin™, Ogors™, Troggoths™, Grots™, Gargants™ and Orruks™, right guys?

>>47406481
GW has always had problems with shelf space in their stores.
That's the main reason they didn't just keep making armies. Every new unit has to replace an old one. And GW's business strategies always hinged on their stores.
The exception to this is high price, low volume items. Hence the giant monster edition.

I think the only way we could have had an alternate universe where GW remained good is if they had embraced their online presence properly.
For me, GW died when they stopped selling bits.

>>47406765
You forgot Soulblights™.

>>47406694
>>we will never have zombie pirate kits
Just mash together Zombies and Empire Militia.
Oh, wait...

>>47406826
>Just mash together Zombies and Empire Militia
Yeah, but it lacked the pirate bit IMO.

I mean, the 6th ed Empire militia looked like it was better and more uniformly equipped than the 7th edition state troop altogether.

And there was absolutely no parrots.

>>47406642
Tilea
>a remake of the the experimental weapons chariot of the Empire but full of crossbowmen
>Battle Standard Carroccio
>magical chariots, empire gets clockwork monsters instead
I wish I had a time machine

>>47406809
Well that bothers me. Why no just make a rotation of the armies/units as new content rolls out or get updated, and store everything else in the back ? You have demo armies to show off all the stuff anyways, and the store can take orders easily for special stuff.

>>47407559
This is a company who dismissed the internet, stopped 100% of their advertising, and called video games a fad.

They cannot innovate sales practices. They can barely sell.

I've been leafing through the 9th age Wood Elf book, how viable would an all-nature army be? I'm talking about tree spirits only, with maybe a Spellweaver to play druid and a unit of giant eagles.

On that note, what about a creepy ghouls only vampire army (Strigoi ghoul king, crypt horrors, vargheists etc.)?

>>47407139
I wish you had a time machine as well anon, that all sounds brilliant

>>47407139
>>47409216
>Get time machine
>Could alter the fate of the world in any way you choose
>Use it to get some different toy soldiers

>>47409132
Strigoi are OP as fuck and have always been, not too sure about forest things.
Try checking out the 8e Wood Elf guide and comparing it to the 9e changes.

>>47401865

It could have been that the aftermath is just a total mess, from Archaon being hyped up and falling flat on his ass to him surviving.

>>47407559

In a way this is akin to what GW is doing now. Finecast stuff is only available via their online store and even some plastic kits have that distinction, those that I assume haven't been carrying their weight.

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>still have to wait 20 hours for Total Warhammer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSBWwnOHvM8

genius marketing tbqh

>>47410445
It's a cute gimmick but is it worth the horrid drop in video quality?

>>47406233
Actually, Gav said that because his love of Elf lore that he decided to help retcon bits of it to make the Elves independent of Chaos and be their own thing.

>>47409249
>not using time machine just to fix GW

Pleb detected

>>47409249
I've seen too many time travel movies to not know how that shit goes. Have fun accidentally causing the extinction of the human race while trying to prevent WW2, I'll be content with changing a company's catalog.

>>47410445
Is this supposed to display in 3d by default?
I just get a weird warped binocular vision thing and I can't find any option to put it into 3d.

Maybe I have something blocking the script.

>>47410601
Yeah. By making them fucking Eldar.

If he actually gave a shit he'd have let their lore evolve. Instead, we're stuck with "as many Elves as the plot demands", Malekith losing literally all of his character and even his cisual style, the destruction of the High Elf lore completely, and of course Wood Elves completely forgotten.

>>47410601
Gav turned the best Elf on the winning team to the worst Elf on a team that loses despite having infinite numbers to lose. That shit is indefensible.

>>47411144
That wasn't him. Gav helped with GW writing Slaanesh out of the Pleasure Cults in 7th ED and that's it.

All the complaints you named in your post are from 8th ED which is when Matt Ward took charge of the Elf lore. He wrote the lore of all three Elf types and a also wrote a huge chunk of the End Times. Gav was at best an advisor at that time. Matt Ward was the driving force behind these changes.

>>47385415
Demigryphs are awsum, I bought 2 boxes to have 6, but I want more. Its a shame GW got rid of the knightly orders, hope they redo them....

>>47411258
>Matt Ward
>
I don't even find anything funny to put in my greentext.

>>47411258
But WHY would you take Slaanesh out of the Pleasure Cults? That was literally 1/2 of the entire Dark Elf identity, and he replaced it with...not-Slaanesh.

It added nothing, and it took away the sole difference between Dark Eldar and Dark Elves.

It. Was. Shit. He should never be allowed to write for Fantasy, he has never produced a single thing good for it.

>>47411541

He took it out because it was expressed by Rick Priestly and Alan Merett that the Dark Elves worship of Slaanesh was not in line with the rest of their lore.

Mainly it tackled the question of why the Dark Elves worshiped Khaine and not Khorne when the former is just the weaker Elvish version of the latter. To a lesser extent it also answers why there are no Dark Elves who worship Tzeentch or Nurgle.

Also if you think that is the only difference between the Dark Elves and Dark Eldar, you know nothing of the latter. The Dark Eldar don't even worship Slaanesh, they despise him, however instead of changing their ways they'd rather have others essentially suffer in their stead.

>>47412023
So why the fuck is it Chaos can't corrupt Elves, but can canonically corrupt everything else?

Why the fuck would no Elves worship the Chaos Gods wben nobody knows better that the only good end there is lies in becoming a Daemon Prince, something only the most arrogant would pursue?

Also, still Dark Eldar. The fact Dark Elves just don't give a fuck while Dark Eldar are scared doesn't make them different. Being Chaos Elves made them different.

Shit, why would there be Chaos Dwarfs and not Chaos Elves? Chaos holds no allure to Dwarfs, its wholly unnatural to them.

Also, the Cult of Pleasure was a secret organization at rivalry with the Cult of Khaine. The mainstream adhered to Gav's idea of Elves with Khaine, while the most wicked gave in wholly to Slaanesh instead as the purest form of depravity and evil.

>>47412186

http://gavthorpe.co.uk/dark-elves-qa-on-the-background/

>1. The subject of Slaanesh first came up when we were looking at the High Elves background and the Cult of Slaanesh. I had a long conversation with Rick Priestley and Alan Merrett, who expressed concerns that the worship of Slaanesh was not consistent with the rest of the Dark Elf approach to the gods. In a nutshell and without getting too metaphysical, it posed the question of why Dark Elves worship Slaanesh and at the same time also worship Khaine and not Khorne. There’s a never-ending debate about how the gods perceived by the Warhammer races are part of or separate from the Chaos Gods and this was encapsulated in the Khaine/ Khorne dichotomy. It seemed a far more plausible and characterful solution that while the Elves descended into debauchery and excess they would do so via their own pantheon of gods, just as Aenarion was a disciple of Khaine and not Khorne. This gave me the opportunity to explore the religious side of the Elves with more vigour, in particular expanding upon the classical Greek/ Roman approach to worship that the Elves beliefs are based upon. The idea that there are darker gods in the pantheon that all Elves accept, but only the Dark Elves pray to and give sacrifice to was a nice way to lead into the the idea of the ‘Dark’ Elves. This is something that is further explored in Malekith.

Basically it sounds like the Dark Elves never worshiped the Chaos gods because they had their own gods to serve in their stead.

Chaos Dwarfs are completely different in that they only came about from a group of Dwarfs separated from the rest of their civilization and left in desperate straits. They only worship Hashut at any rate and so are Chaos in the same way Skaven are Chaos.

It's hard to really compare the Dark elves and Dark Eldar because other than sharing a few things in common, Elves and Eldar grew apart both visually and culturally.

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GREEN IZ BEST

>>47412511
The chaos dwarfs did nothing wrong
>where was grimnir when our warriors were dying? Where was Valaya when our children sickened? When we called out for aid in the deep paces where we delved, it was not Grungi who answered our call, but mighty Hashut who delivered us in our time of need. Who are the real traitors here? Our kin who abandoned us to madness and death or we who only sought to survive against the forces of chaos? one day there will be a reckoning and it will be the sons of the father of darkness who will have their victory, not the weak willed spawn of the pathetic Ancestor Gods

The chaos dwarfs see themselves as the betrayed, thats the only reason they turned to Hashut. The gods broke their oaths, not the other way around. Under normal circumstances, dwarfs are nearly impossible to corrupt with chaos, though they can be manipulated.
I'm sure under similar circumstances, you could get Chaos elves as well.

>>47417073

That is pretty much what I was saying, Chaos Dwarfs are only a thing because they got completely fucked over and it was either embrace Hashut and live or die.

Something similar does sort of happen in the End Times where at least Hellebron seemingly turns to the worship of Khorne.

>>47417073
Actually they did the worst wrong. They chickened out and begged for a depraved and base existence rather then having the courage to die well and go to their ancestor gods. They turned traitor to the entire race rather then find a decent death. Cowards. Nothing is worse to a proper Dwarf.

As far as Chaos Elves, my lore is a bit old so most of it may have been retconned, but originally it was because they were designed by the Slann to withstand the Warp and not falter. Dwarves were not, and neither were Humans. Halflings were a fluke that ended up far more resistant to Chaos, but nearly powerless and useless. Basically you couldn't have Chaos Elves because they are supposed to be the only ones that can actually win against Chaos. The tragedy is that they can't because they splintered over pride and foolishness.

>>47417568
>designed by the Slann

That's some shit-tier nu-lore.

>>47412186
>So why the fuck is it Chaos can't corrupt Elves, but can canonically corrupt everything else?

There are Chaos Elves but they are rare. For example, the Slaaneshi Dark Elf Corsair who served Archaon.

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>>47417641
So "Nu" that is was published in 1986.

Pure dumbass. 200 proof.

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Does anyone have a link to the second Archaon book?
It's called Lord of Chaos and it's by Rob Sanders if you've seen it around.
#bookz don't have it.
Actually buying it isn't an option for me right now obviously.

>>47367396
Magnet link where?

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>>47419590
What did you think of the first book?

"Archaon : Lord of Chaos"
http://www.mediafire.com/download/dzxjnbxdzom46l9/The_Nevermore.mobi

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>>47372520
>being an Arkhanfag and hating on Lichemaster HK

I'm thrilled that one of the oldest and most classic Warhammer characters made the cut.

>>47417568
It happened the other way around: First they did the elves, but they were corruptible, then they made the dwarfs, resistant but flawed in a different way

>>47419638
I haven't read it yet, I'll probably be playing Total Warhammer in my spare time for a bit. But I'll only have my laptop for entertainment in a bit. Took me awhile to find an version of the first book that didn't fuck up with coolreader but I finally did.

I can't open the file you linked. What reader do you use?

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>>47419778
Mobipocket Reader.

The file is in mobi format.

Anyway, you should buy this. It's a collection of both the first and second novel plus a bonus short story. I heard they are selling it for 5 bucks at book stores.

Total War: Warhammer has been released.

Apparently a lot of trouble getting it to function with certain graphics cards.

Not sure if I should get it or wait until they've sorted this out.

>>47420633
I kinda expected technical difficulties at the launch.

>>47420633
960 here, terrible load times, everything else is pretty good. Had one hard freeze randomly on the campaign map.

Is a Tzeentch-themed Empire army fluffy at all? Like a corrupted Imperial sorcerer who converted and controls a battalion? I was thinking about doing a Nurgle Empire battalion, but that would take too much greenstuff and I have 0 experience with modelling like that.

It's that or maybe a black/red Sylvanian battalion (yes I know Sylvania is absorbed into Stirland) that was mustered from what little remains of fully able-bodied, militaristic people that inhabit Sylvania, as well as the surrounding Stirland (irreligious mercenaries, I guess). Led by a gaudy young vampire who mustered it purely to impress the higher echelons of the night aristocracy, and brings a throng of mortal knightly aspirants who dote on him to give them immortality.

>>47420713
>Is a Tzeentch-themed Empire army fluffy at all?
Yes.

>>47420713
Both of your ideas are fluffy. Cults aren't rare at all, and sylvanian vampires often use lively troops.

>>47420757
The Chaos gods would also love to get a vampire as a pawn since they are harder for the Chaos gods to directly corrupt.

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>mfw downloading Total War: Warhammer RIGHT NOW

i really hope i haven't been memed out of my money

>>47421378
It's a graphics card problem. Check the specs of whoever is complaining if they listed problems. If you have the same card, you're fucked. If not, you get as good optimisation as you could expect from CA

How was Archaon path in canon? I play chaos warrior and devastate Norsca. Feels weird.

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>Archaon travels around the world gathering artifacts and passing the Chaos Gods trials. No nation is safe from him. Even far off Lustria and Cathay felt his wrath as he cruised the sea
>Archaon returns North after finishing up and collecting all the treasures
>Fights Be'lakor and then forces him to crown him
>Fights Be'lakor again after the coronation and kills him
>Archaon then unites the warbands of the North and the east. Most willingly join, others have to be broken
>Archaon sits on his throne and calls for the Chaos Gods to send their legions
>The walls of reality crumble as the northern rift expands
>Countless daemonic legions pour from the rift and stand before Archaon's throne
>The legions Great Daemon commanders step closer to Archaon's throne and then each one of them bends the knee to the Three Eyed King and acknowledge his superiority
>Archaon is given a vision of him destroying the world
>Archaon looses the daemons on the world
>Archaon orders a worldwide invasion
>The main Archaon host stays north
>Archaon sends the first wave of Chaos Warriors and beastmen south. They are lead by Crom the Conqueror and a gang of multiple old and new Chaps characters
>Kislev is destroyed and the Chaos hosts begun the march to the Empire
>Gelt's wall of faith wards off the Chaos Hordes
>Crom is killed by Valten
>Gelt's fall of faith is dissolve due to vampire shenanigans
>Archaon sends the Glottkin south
>The Glottkin devastate the Empire, destroying many of its cities until they are stopped at the capital
>Archaon finally marches south with the bulk of the Chaos Host
>The weakened Empire did not have a chance
>The empire managed to beat off the vanguard led by the Curseling but is ultimately utterly destroyed or conquered by Archaon's forces
>The Imperial survivors led by Karl Franz (Sigmar reborn) flee to the Wood Elves forest

The rest is history

>>47421844
This is meant for this >>47421667

>Bring up the Total War opening window.
>See an ad for Warhammer saying "You've played the game, now see the miniatures.
>Only have a handful of miniatures to show since GW has cancelled WHFB and replaced it with AoS

Games Workshop really haven't thought this through.

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>>47421912

>>47421912
Also all under the wrong names.

>>47417405
If Hellebron can worship Khorne, why can't Morathi worship Slaanesh? All of the Elf gods were diminished. The only miracles were Mathlann saving Aislinn three times, Aenarion being blessed by Asuryan, and Lileath giving Alith Anar and Teclis presents.
Plus Kurnous doing random shit only the Ellyrions care about.

Atharti never did shit for anyone. Why worship her when Slaanesh's blessings are constant?

>>47422684
>If Hellebron can worship Khorne
So your entire justification for dark elves worshipping slaanesh in the warhammer setting is something that happened at the end of the End Times. Malekith was pheonix king for longer than hellebron joined up with chaos for fuck's sake, are you going to claim he should be pheonix king in the setting too? It's got more precedent.

>>47422684
>If Hellebron can worship Khorne, why can't Morathi worship Slaanesh?

Because Hellebron did not do it willingly. Her god died and left her alone and then she was driven to madness. She did not embrace Khorne willingly.

Why worship the Elven Gods when the Chaos Gods are way stronger? Because they are Elf Gods. It's as simple as that. It's a matter of pride and arrogance coupled with self preservation and common sense.

>>47422851
No, Morathi being Slaaneshi has more precedent than Malekith being secretly right all along.
>>47422883
How is wanting to become more than a god less arrogant? If anything, Dark Elves should be all trying to become Daemon Princes.

>>47423203
>If anything, Dark Elves should be all trying to become Daemon Princes.

And lose their souls and become pawns in the process? The Elves know what's up with daemonhood and it's not something they desire.

Look at Malekith and Morathi. They are immortal and more powerful than most daemon princes. They achieved this while still being Elves.

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>>47423294
>Look at Malekith and Morathi. They are immortal and more powerful than most daemon princes. They achieved this while still being Elves.
Yet they know its not eternal.
That was Slaaneshi Morathi's entire motivation. To become as flawless eternally as she was at the present. She resented that her underlings would be humans because she would have to sacrifice all Elves to achieve it, but was still enthusiastically pursuing her imagined place as Slaanesh's consort.

Queen Azshara from Warcraft is a direct ripoff of Morathi. "What? There's an innumerable looming darkness that wants to destroy everything? I'll bet their leader has a huge cock, open a portal so I can claim my husbando!"

>>47421844
Nah, he got headbutted by Grimgor. Later Archaon developed chlorophobia and didn't dare set foot south of the Chaos Wastes again.

>>47422883
>>47423294
In 8th ed slanesh hunts elven souls like he does in 40k, so the elves try their hardest not to get mixed up with him.

It also undermined the dark elf lore a great deal, I just disliked how they removed the suspected incest from mals back story. It's what made dark elves seem that much more detached from humanity.

>>47424943
Think the 9th Age guys will include Chaos Dark Elves in their lore? Or even an alternative army upgrade?

>>47424943
I never did like that lore addition in WHFB. It just felt lazy and unmotivated.

>>47425163
Gav Thorpe is the Matt Ward of Fantasy.

>>47425163
Which lore addition?
The incest or the slanesh shenanigans?

>>47425465
He is the one that authored the clusterfuck mess of Storm of Chaos were Grimgor was the only one that was in character.

>>47425499
Both. Dark Elves should be decadent hedonist weirdos. GW has been pussyfooting on the sexual aspects on Warhammer ever since 7'th editon.

>>47425465
You are a complete and utter retard that should be kicked in the balls. Gav did not write in the Slaanesh eating Elf soul thing.

It was added in 8th ED by Matt Ward himself. Matt Ward wrote all three Elf army books in 8th ED.

I am surrounded by newfags!

>>47426515
Ward was not the only writer on the Elf books, you fucking moron. He was ONE OF the writers, and he told the public he was on the team for all three.

We do know Gav worked on Dark Elves for the same reason, he told the public he was.

GW just rotates writers on everything and has them mostly independant with little oversight, its why continuity is such a fucking mess.

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Imagine someone excited over Total War Warhammer going to check out the company that originally made Warhammer.

"What the fuck's an Orruk?"

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>>47426901
>Where is Karl Franz?
>Where is Kemmler?
>Where's the setting?!

>>47426901
Yeah, GW shit the bed big time.

"Kemmler is so cool! I want one for my desk!"

"Why is he just called Necromancer? Wait, he's not even fucking painted? Not even assembled? He's like one inch high for $15?! What a rip off!"

If they were smart they'd make a small set for each that has the character, plus paints and a brush like pic related.
Instead they're advertising $90 models with the wrong name.

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>>47427113
Forgot pic.

Can someone explain to me how Elf immortality works? Some Elves die of old age, but Elves older than them are running around just fine in the current setting.

>>47427182
They don't have immortatlity, elves have a life span of roughly a thousand years.
Certain elves use magic to extend it.
>malakeith with his armor and possibly magical pheonix burns.
>morathai uses the only perfect blood cauldron

>>47427132
That sounds like complete crap, just stop being poor.

>>47427182
Malekith, Morathi, Caledor the Dragontamer, Ariel, Orion, and Alith Anar are the only ageless Elves.

Malekith is kept alive by magic armor. Morathi bathes in the blood of babies to stay alive, prior to 7e she also had Slaanesh's blessings. Caledor the Dragontamer is stuck as part of all magic and outside both time and space. Ariel and Orion are Greek style gods. Alith Anar is blessed by a god and fueled by his intense hatred, although prior to 8e it was possible he was a vampire or different Elves using the same name.

>>47426671
Matt Ward's name is on the book.

Gav was not an employee of GW at the time. He was a freelancer for BL.

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>>47427246
I'm talking about business strategy, not my own purchasing. I fucking own half of those.

The most your average nerd will pay is $50 for a 7 inch NECA or Figma figure.
Almost nobody but people already into models will pay $90 for something the same size with the only part they want being 1 inch tall that is unpainted, unassembled, and covered in flash and mold lines with no interchangeable parts.

Shit, GW could have licensed with NECA and gotten decent merchandise out to sell to fans of both games. They did 40k statues that sold like hotcakes years ago.

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>>47427392
These were $40 each. GW did them to promote Dawn Of War 1, in one single run, and never did anything else. They're worth about $500 in box now.

If they had half a brain across the board they'd do them again for Total Warhammer.

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>>47427574

>>47426901
>thinking that TW players will jump right into the tabletop, and not just look up the lore

Total war Warhammer, Dawn of War 3 and vermintide are the reasons I never need to get into the TT. I've loved the fluff and the setting for quite some time, but could never afford the cost of entry or find people to play with. Now I can play with multiple armies in many different scenarios and with thousands of men on the battlefield. The cost of the game and all the paid DLCs will be significantly less than a sizable army, and I'll spend far more time playing. If anything, i see TW igniting interest in warhammer as pushing it to WoW and levels of public interest

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>>47427661
Shit, the cost of the game and all the DLC will be less than a single Nagash or Wyvren.

They needed a true Skirmish game actually set in the same setting. Like Torii.

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>>47427574
Yes, they should be making action figures for Total War Warhammer. I would buy this $64 Karl Franz Model as an action figure if it came fully painted and assembled and I was guaranteed that it would look like pic related when i open the box.

>>47427821
The irony is it wouldn't cost GW a cent, the producer would eat production costs. All they would see is profit.

>>47427041
They still sell Karl Franz and Kemmler minis, though. They just have generic names now.

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Please tell me I'm not the only one that noticed this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYRih5WapaM

>>47427887
>They just have generic names now.
Which is a bit of a problem for people looking for them.

>>47428019
I'm not saying it's ideal. I think the whole AoS mess is shit either way.

>>47426901
If they wanted to make a lot of dough easily, they could create a Mordheim style game which comes with two opposed warbands packaged and sold for a reasonable price. As in, don't bother making 90% profit on your plastic minis like you usually do. It would be simple enough to play that normies could get into it but introduce them to miniature wargaming as well.

>>47428190
I think they are trying to do this with Warhammer Quest. Except for the reasonable price, because we are talking about GW here...

>>47427955

Heh.

Is collecting FB minis still possible with AoS and all that? How does it even work?

>>47428479
Fantasy is not officially supported anymore.
So all the minis they are gonna keep around for AoS are gonna be repackaged with round bases.

In essence it's not gonna work, if you want to keep playing WHFB right out of the box. At the very least you'll have to buy new bases for everything.
And most of the stuff they repackaged they discounted a little, but put twice the amount of models in a box. So you have to buy 10 marauder horsemen or 6 skullcrushers etc, which are usually somewhat absurd numbers for WHFB unless your army list revolves around those units. So while the individual model might be cheaper the whole bundle is more expensive and you may or may not end up with more models than you wanted.

>>47428552
>At the very least you'll have to buy new bases for everything.
Technically he could just use movement trails for units and take the square bases only for big individual stuff

>>47427955
Kek

>>47428651
true you still have to buy 20mm bases from a third party since gw doesn't do anything smaller than 25mm round bases atm.
Or you just go with the KoW approach and use the footprint of the unit.

There is an ebayshop from spain that sells mdf regiment bases for round bases iirc.

>>47429249
Well, they ares till selling square bases:
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-CA/Painting-Modelling?N=102271+4294965927&Nu=product.repositoryId&qty=12&sorting=rec&view=table&categoryId=cat440136a-flat

I think next months Loot Crate Gaming has Vermintide stuff.

newfriend here.

I'm wondering about warhammer lore. Does it have the same kind of cooky dark sense of humour as 40k?

Can someone give me the rundown of the warhammer world?

Thanks in advance, I'd really like to get into this.

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>>47427955
Mantic does some pretty decent plastic undead. I like GW's skeletons more, but the Mantic ones are more transport friendly. They also have kind of an Evil Dead: Army of Darkness look about them.

>>47430273
Warhammer is less hyperbole satirical han 40k, but there is plenty of humour to be found around the fluff.

>>47430323
Got a good source on basic fluff?

I got into 40k and mained DCoK becaus I was an edgy faggot teenager when I started out. I'd like to know more about the factions before ordering anything.

>>47430378
Oh, I dunno. Check 1d4chan for fluff roundups?

Otherwise this norwegian guy on youtube has made a whole bunch of videos on Warhammer.
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuWKPSkHCAA

>>47430300
I have some of these myself.
I really like them except for the shields. They're a little underwhelming and it would be better if the shield was a separate piece.

>>47421912

Nah, I think they thought it through decently enough.

The video game market already has companies (Particularly Japanese ones) who offer statues or nendos with limited edition versions of their games or have statues and nendos released alongside and ever after the games release.

GW is probably trying to target this market. I'd say their only failing is that the aforementioned releases by other companies come ready for display while GW's stuff has to be built and painted, the only plus is that I think most are less then or around what you would pay for a statue or nendo.

I can see how Fantasy players could fail to notice this however seeing as they're still operating under the delusion that everyone who picks up Total Warhammer is afterwards actually going to give a damn about the game it was based on.

>>47423203

>Malekith being secretly right all along.

Holy shit, I can't believe some people are actually taking a meme as fact now.

I am also once again astounded by the sheer stupid arrogance portrayed by the Warhammer fanbase online where they claim to know more about and what is fitting for a race than the person who created the fucking game in the first place.

>>47424943

The Slaanesh thing didn't honestly bother me because its completely different from 40k.

The Eldar were responsible for the creation of Slaanesh in 40k and that is why he has such an interest in their souls. I actually kind of liked the spin ADB seemingly put on it in Aurelian where Slaanesh is almost portrayed as hurt and angry that the Eldar created a god in their image and then had the gall to run away rather than embrace him.

Elven souls for Slaanesh in Fantasy just seem to be his favorite or one of his most favorite snacks.

>>47430378
1d4chan is good, as is the 6th edition rulebook

Lexicanum for WHFB is also quite good, but not quite on the same scope as the 40k version.

>>47430273
There's some funny stuff, like the dwarfs' grudges and Konrad von Carstein being an unhinged fucking psycho that was turned into a vampire because Vlad thought he was funny.

Overall it's a lot more serious though

>>47433864
>1d4chan is good, as is the 6th edition rulebook

6th circlejerk again in full force... The fluff section in the 6th rulebook is less than 20 pages versus the 120pp in 8th

>My cousin is getting Warhammer Total War
>Think Sigvald is cool
>wants to play Chaos campaign

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>>47434274

TT or PC?

What company are people using for movement trays nowadays?

>>47430378
Its actually in the OP.

>Newbie Introduction to Warhammer Fantasy
http://www.mediafire.com/download/i330182xo9b1hsi/Rulebook+%28Hardback%29.pdf (Download, start reading at page 174 for the story and all the races)

>>47431115
>I can see how Fantasy players could fail to notice this however seeing as they're still operating under the delusion that everyone who picks up Total Warhammer is afterwards actually going to give a damn about the game it was based on.
Why not, its the only reason I'm in tabletop gaming.

I loved Age of Empires 2 as a kid, found out Warhammer Fantasy is basically that plus Tolkien but without any resource management.

Not to mention the Dark Souls Kickstarter, the most profitable of all time with (I think it was like 4.5 million dollars at the end?) proving video gamers WILL make the leap into a decently priced tabletop.

>>47431115
>Holy shit, I can't believe some people are actually taking a meme as fact now.
>I am also once again astounded by the sheer stupid arrogance portrayed by the Warhammer fanbase online where they claim to know more about and what is fitting for a race than the person who created the fucking game in the first place.
Wow, you sound like a huge pretentious faggot with a mouth full of smegma.

Malekith was Asuryan's chosen, but since he was unfit to rule at the time he was burned. However, he was always meant to be the Phoenix King and his warmongering was Asuryan's chosen path. Meanwhile, the Elf thought to be Asuryan's new chosen son that only wanted peace despite his blood raging for war, Tyrion, was actually Khaine's chosen making the High Elves wrong and the Dark Elves in the right. Malekith finally passes through the flame and is blessed by Asuryan without ever atoning for his sins and in fact being vindicated in his status as "ten times worse than Hitler" because the god who all along was believed to be a judge and symbol of justice and divine rule was actually more like Zeus after being castrated in the sense of being a massive cunt.

The tl;dr is "Malekith was right all along". Unless you expect someone to type out a fucking copypasta every time because your fucking autism can't handle it.

>>47434850

Any source on the bullshit you spew other than End Times, the final disgrace where GW killed Warhammer?

>>47434850
*Malerion

Use the officially updated name shill.

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>>47434884
Look back, the post the person I replied to was replying to was actually citing that as an example of the new lore being shit since Malekith being right came in when Slaaneshi Morathi went out.

So yeah, the discussion is actually about that End Times lore and sort of why its shit.

>>47434903
Actually, I think the Age of Shitmar name is Morelion. Which I only remember because of pic related.

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>>47434884
>Complains about something from the End Times
>Won't allow End Times as a source

Fucking what? Where else are you expecting to read about events that happened during the End Times? Or are you a colossal faggot who doesn't take it as being canon because you're still butthurt about events you don't like?

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>Color scheme changed from black to gold
>Suffering champion
>Bows to no god
>Described as a unifier

They retconned the ultimate villain of the west and general Darth Vader ripoff, Malekith, into being the God Emperor of Mankind in End Times. Then transformed him into a Dragon Centaur so Sigmar can be the God Emperor of Mankind again for Age of Sigmar.

Did they even have anything resembling a plan, or were there like five different writing teams all just passing their work to the next group to continue with?

>>47435066

If they did, what was the next step in their master plan?

Frankly, it seems like they just fucking fired the old writing staff and hired new ones, or just wrote it up themselves to save money on writers. Like what they did with the art, nuanced artists with a wealth of experience and a real visceral feel for the world or WHFB are being systematically replaced by art manufactured by computer algorithm/parrot with a paintbrush/college intern illustrator.

>>47435066
>Color scheme changed from black to gold
that was just a glamor cast by Teclis to make him more heroic looking. Alarielle sees right through it and still sees him as a half dead crispy elf in black armor
>Described as a unifier
o, just that the elves are unified under his rule. Dark elves are still loyal to him from before, and most of the high elves and wood elves are only joining because of Alarielle. This is stated many times, and most of the elves still hate Malekith.
>Bows to no god
most elves don't, they just honor them and call upon them for aid.
>Suffering champion
because of his own mistakes and because Asuryan has a really retarded plan.

Everyone likes to think malekith suddenly became a hero , but Most of his success in the end times was due to other people. Scratch that, all of it. Without Teclis, Malekith would have achieved nothing. Without Imrik he would have never taken Ulthuan, his forces would have got BTFO by the Caledorians before even breaching the gates. Without Alarielle and Lileath None of the high or wood elves would have chosen Malekith even if it was meant to be. Without Teclis and Caradryan interfering with his battle with Tyrion he would have got rekt, and then sniped by Alith Anar. And if Alith anar so chose to, Malekith would have died in the final battle. All of Malekiths success was due to other people, which in turn was only due to everyone being stupid enough to trust Lileath in the first place. The only good that came out of that plan was Sigmar being released from the vortex.

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>>47435292

>college intern illustrator

Well, I guess that means we're going to get some "classic" art with a lot of "meaning" and "depth" out of it.

>>47434806

I'll admit I could possibly see the hardcore strategy players showing some interest, but those who are more casual will stick with the game. Even with hardcore there is the hurdle of price and the fact that you actually have to build and paint the models.

There is possible overlap, but not every video game player goes on to become interested in tabletop just because they found the video game based on the aforementioned to be cool.

I also think you possibly assume too much about the Dark Souls kickstarter, a bunch of people could have just put the money down for free merchandise and have no intention of actually touching the game. Furthermore, board games are different from wargames.

>>47434850

I called it a meme because that is what it originally was, a way of poking fun at the people who couldn't understand Malekith as the new Phoenix King.

The only thing really right about Malekith is that he didn't half-ass the trial with protection, he attempted as his father did and failed, meaning he was not yet ready. That also means the other kings illegitimate since they didn't even bother to try doing it right in the first place.

I don't recall anything about his actions being vindicated by Asuryan, merely that Malekith was his chosen because shit was hitting the fan and he was dying and Malekith was apparently the only elf in thousands of years who could be bothered to do the trial correctly. Admittedly it probably didn't hurt that Malekith had told Morathi to go fuck herself beforehand and afterwards actually mellowed out a bit and started to act something like the person he used to be. Anything about Asuryan looking favorably on his actions I recall coming from Thorpe's novel, not the actual book.

Considering that the Elves supposedly drew inspiration from the Greeks, I can easily buy their gods acting similar to the Greek pantheon and Asuryan mostly being concerned that the one seeking his blessing follows the rules.

>>47435292
The comparison to comic books that has been thrown around is apt, and not just for Crisis On Infinite Earths.

The DC New 52 event that's basically been the better part of the last decade had horrible Editor work. Characters were retconned into being totally different only two issues into the new continuity like Wade Wilson starting as an alien but then suddenly having to just have amnesia with no explanation of why the first two didn't matter, a lot of shit relied heavily on past canon while huge chunks were completely different in such a way its best described as "a newborn baby with old man legs with everything below the knee still inside the mother". Rob Liefeld, after being fired, wrote a huge piece about how the only job of the Editor was to be the mouthpiece between the Executives and Writers which was later confirmed by a fair amount of others still in the industry and contradicted by nobody. He stated artists were expected to put in as much work as needed without additional pay, completely redoing an entire issue a week before the deadline due to a random request out of the blue and their pay being docked if they didn't do it, and that this wasn't a one-time thing but on some issues took place five or six times. That the only thing that mattered across all books is that every three months there was going to be an event and some books would have costume changes to to justify a restart back to issue #1 because that sells the most copies, and all other things were totally okay from the Joker canonically being gay for Batman after cutting his own face off and wearing it as a mask to the Green Lanterns being slowly destroying the fabric of the universe every time they make a light construct.

That's where GW is at right now. They know they want to plug away to the next big profit, nothing else matters so either they completely ignore it or just shuffle somebody off to go write something that doesn't matter.

>>47435344
>The only good that came out of that plan was Sigmar being released from the vortex.
What's good about that? He did literally nothing for Fantasy in the end, Karl Franz with his power was more useful.

File: aaron-griffin-tom-hardy.jpg (154KB, 750x1000px) Image search: [Google]

154KB, 750x1000px

>>47435292
>art manufactured by computer algorithm/parrot with a paintbrush/college intern illustrator.
It's never the tools, it's always the person using it.
>pic related, a digital painting

>>47435378
>That also means the other kings illegitimate since they didn't even bother to try doing it right in the first place.
Not really.

GW completely forgot their own lore. Asuryan did not make Aenarion king, he gave Aenarion a massive divine power boost.

The Elves chose to elect him to king, a position they created just for that and only because the dude was good at killing things. Likewise, they later chose to elect a different king but decided that they would use walking through the fire with magical protection to be the same as putting your hand on a bible to be sworn into office.

Asuryan never had any say in who was king, because kingship as a concept never existed for any Elves prior to that and Asuryan never gave any instructions to that regard. He tried to be Tzeentch and gave Aenarion powers thinking the Elves would elect him to be a ruler, but because he didn't Tzeentch hard enough because of the real Tzeentch (which is the dumbest fucking retcon in End Times) he decided to curse every other elected king because apparently he was too fucking weak to send a divine message telling them to elect Malekith despite him literally having a fucking wall of prophesy that was never wrong and told the fate of every Elf and of the world for his own priesthood to consult.

Seriously, that fucking story was beyond horrible shit. I don't even like 6e as a whole, but the best thing you can do is use 6e Elves as the current canon.