Pathfinder General

I want to marry a Naga!

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>>46977397
Fleyne stats coming up
http://pastebin.com/sa3f3wYc

>>46977653
Quicken Spell.
Standard Casting.
Familiar UMD my scroll.

Or just Time Stop and cast 4 spell or something.

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Come tell me about your party and the stupid stuff they have done /tfg/.
Let us all laugh and be merry together.

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Don't hide it from me, /pfg/
Tell me about your homebrews

And then post a link here so we can update the pastebin again.

>>46976056
>Grappling is a clusterfuck, but making something that's grapple-but-not-really leads to even more of a clusterfuck because of the many, many things that interact in specific ways with grappling.
>>46976228
>Its only a clusterfuck if youve still got PTSD from 3.5and dont read the dang rules.

Having talked to the person who wrote it, they're aware that PF grappling isn't nearly as bad as 3.5 grappling. The reason they didn't do stuff with actual grappling is actually BECAUSE of all the many things that interact in specific ways with grappling, especially the various feat taxes to become good at grappling.

And then once you're good at grappling, it's super binary. Either you instantly take them down, or you don't because they had freedom of movement.

>>46977835
My felynes that I mentioned from the previous thread >>46977771

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>>46977835
Arcane Blade Archetype
http://pastebin.com/FuHBfu1g

A fighter archetype who dabbles in magic as a hobby. They are compatible with the Eldritch Guardian.

>>46977835
Here's the only mostly-completed one, the Dread Prince:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QxlWQjtbHba89Va-qbA88j8hdyXScl1CcOlPirH-i9g/edit?usp=sharing

It's still got some bag-of-cats issues and I'm thinking of retooling it somewhat to be more of a nega-Chandler, using the terror of its foes as a sort of debuff aura.

Everyone I REQUIRE HELP. I have created part of a class I am writing for a homebrew. I need opinion on the features that are out so far.

>https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WKwyK10BvzqVb9M3lIJ0ZyraUNSuEr8y0QK6ML6d-6Y/edit?usp=sharing

To explain the feature Facility Expansion it goes as the following.

The Agent gains a facility they can both pack and unpack, while it is unpacked you are able to make use of a number of features. At it's base it just gives skills, but your Facility Expansions provide other bonuses ranging from at low level stored research notes to at high levels a cloning lab.

Both packing and unpacking your facility is something one must consider as for how long it will take. As well as transporting it.

I would love to have some feedback.

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>>46977835
I made Thriae as a playable race!
http://pastebin.com/MJvED5bt

Please give me some feedback, /pfg/!

>>46977844
Grasp is also countered by freedom of movement, and also a binary system.

Why is darkwood so important to the Andoran navy that it allows the Lumber Consortium to exist? It seems like it would be prohibitively expensive to build a ship entirely out of darkwood, and probably not wise (though it would be lighter, it would probably also be more at risk for rolling over, especially in a storm).

My closest guess is that darkwood is used in conjunction with other hardwoods to cut weight and increase speed and mobility on smaller ships that rely more on their maneuverability than outright firepower, and maybe on larger ships so they can field more and heavier armaments. But that doesn't seem like enough to tolerate what is basically a monopoly that operates on wage-slavery when you've got a paladin for president and a literal celestial who drops into random town hall meetings around the country.

I realize the answer is probably just that either I'm interpreting things wrongly or Paizo is shit at writing, but I'm just tryin' to make this shit work.

>>46977902
>>46977835
Me here.

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>>46977835
Brander, Inquisitor Archetype
http://pastebin.com/hd55CccZ

Pretty much the extremist militant inquisitor class

>>46977902
As far as recovering maneuvers go, the Agent should probably have normal 'recover-one-as-a-standard action' and then their special action (which should be noted as recovering [Init Mod] in maneuvers)

>>46977653
What is this weaboo shit?

>>46977835
but i'm still (not) writing Jels!

I'm trying to think of pointless details I'll probably never include in their description like the types of clothing they favor!

>>46977980
Half-oozes? I feel like they'd either favor loose, easy-to-move in stuff (to make use of their natural flexibility unhindered) or fairly skin-tight stuff (for similar reasons, and also for, uh, 'consistency' when hanging out with other mortals)

>>46977771
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpFsNeubnug

I unironically love you.

have an idol song about felynes / nyanta's with no translation because it's in monster hunter gibberish wyverian languange.

>>46977949
> (which should be noted as recovering [Init Mod] in maneuvers)

Got this, but I will put the standard action one in.

>>46978006
I had similar lines of thought - leotard type things were one of them, the other was just going to a fabrics store and picking up like a yard or two of cloth and winding it around themselves, because their ability to compress means that sizes are a nonsense thing.

Like they can literally squeeze their hips/chest down to half the size, pants probably aren't going to do shit for them. So I'm obviously leaning more towards the latter than the former (though the former may occasionally show up).

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>>46977835
http://pastebin.com/FZLfxt6Z

The Charmbound Witch, an archetype that allows the witch to turn her hexes into physical objects as well as utilize occultist Implements. Now your witch can fly on a broomstick, give someone the Evil Eye with a literal glass eye, and so on!

>>46977914
It's also not something that can easily lock someone down. It repositions, yeah, but you need multiple maneuvers to actually pull off real crowd control.

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>>46977835
I'm currently writing:
-Vampire As a PC Race (a more flexible thing that accommodates many different choices for types of vampire legends, and racial feats to get more of them together on one character)
-Brighter Fighter (Fighter archetype that can use chosen mental attributes for lots of things)
-A "final" version of my Weapon Styles Quick Reference sheet that better accommodates throwing weapons, and I hope can still be fit on one page (which was itself a design goal)
-I have the VERY rough beginnings of a Combat Actions Quick Reference sheet, which will more likely span two pages. Why yes I do have new groups that ask me tons of questions all the time, how observant of you.

I might rework my Mentor Bard too because its spell progression is irregular and that bothers me. It's this <- if you care.

I also wrote the "Skill Exceed System" and "A Newbie Group’s Introduction to Reserve Feats and Martial Maneuvers" if anyone remembers. Those were fun.

How do I best go about impregnating hundreds of Drow as a dhampir?
I understand this is an uphill battle in two ways, but I feel I can succeed anyway

>>46978131
It reduces someone's movement to zero and allows you to move them where ever you wish up to half your speed (or greater later on). Repositioning an enemy is stronger than grappling them in many circumstances.

>>46977845
>>46977771
Rajang would be a fun as hell encounter for the average party.

It would likely end with them all screaming "FUCK RAJANG"

I would never inflict the horrors of a plesioth encounter on a party though. Fuck that stupid hipcheck.

>>46978270
Plesioth special rules: If it misses by three or less, it hits instead, because its hitboxes are all fucked up.

>>46977863
Isn't this basically just a worse Magus?

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>Fate's Favored trait combined with Halfling's Adaptable Luck racial trait

Noice

>>46977902
So any actual thoughts on the Research Facility and its upgrades? Any options you think a facility like that should have but are not detailed?

Tomorrow I'm going to finish my thoughts on the Anatomical Analogues and post them into that as well. Facility Expansions are out of combat and Anatomical Analogues are in.

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>>46978431
I've explained this before.

You don't play him like a magus, you play him like a fighter with new toys.
You get the cool stuff the Magus gets like being able to craft magical weapons and armor and wondrous items, as well as using your magus pool to enchant your weapons and a few magus arcana if you really want any.

You also have things a Magus doesn't have like a full BAB, D10 HD, A lot of feats to play with, proficiency with heavy armor at an early level without penalties, and capable of wielding two-handers to do massive damage with power attacks, etc.

>>46978444
Divine Favor is the main thing really.

>>46978485
Don't worry anon, *I* still like it. It's obviously still gonna be a Fighter but it's a good archetype and could be great alongside a Fighter fix.

>>46978444
Strictly worse than a +2 luck to saves desu senpai.

hey all. I had a quick question about PoW expanded. Was there any word given why this feat was removed from the book? assuming it was OP or something but never the less shit seemed really awesome.

Sorcerous Bloodline [General]
You’ve learned to tame the wild martial magic within yourself and may use it as a sorcerer.
Prerequisites: Ability to generate animus, possession of a sorcerous bloodline.
Benefits: You may add your mystic levels to your sorcerer or bloodrager level (pick one if both are possessed) to determine the effectiveness of your bloodline and bloodline abilities gained from class levels. Additionally, bloodrager or sorcerer levels (pick one if both are possessed) count as full initiator levels to determine a mystic’s total initiator level.

>>46978519
It was removed because they didn't want to have a specific caster multiclass feat. It and the other MC feat got turned into Practiced Initiator.

>>46978485
Magus can use two handers if they really want to; they do lose out on spell combat but they can still use spellstrike. They still have all their spells and other abilities.

>>46978576
That's true, but by design, Maguses are almost discouraged to use a two-handed weapon or a shield because they'd be cheating themselves off a feature, which is tied to another feature.

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Thinking about making a Draconic Bloodrager (specifically a Rageshaper since it seems pretty handy for what I aim to do), but I don't know what race to play as. On one hand I could go Human and snag two feats, on the other I could go Half-Orc and have Sacred Tattoo/Shaman's Apprentice/(maybe)Fey Thoughts as racials...

Any ideas/recommendations?

>>46978485
Nothing stops maguses two handing one handed weapons when they aren't using spell combat.

Regardless archetype looks good.

>>46978500
You can use adaptable luck on saving throw. So that's +3.

>>46978658
Or you could just be a half orc and take Sacred Tattoo for a +2 to all saves all the time.

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>>46977653
> Maneuvers from this discipline require the initiator to be using discipline weapons or be unarmed. Use of discipline-specific weapons with Broken Blade inflict an additional 2 points of damage.

What does it mean? Every time I initiate a Broken Blade strike maneuser I get +2 to damage?
Since I can't initiate BB maneuver without discipline weapon anyway.

>>46978658
+2 all the time is better than +3 three times a day.

>>46978527
damn. really wanted to make mystic/sorcerer multiclass work somehow. oh well. any ideas on how to make this combo viable? or should I just stick with mystic.

>>46978707
The adaptable luck is more versatile. I'd rather have three +3s every day than a +2 for some saves I may or may not have to make.

>>46977835
Mystic Star.
For even more magical girl mystic.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1M7P2mxetPD0NFmC-wo_YbooLosZLCB1rdBmmI9UlZ_E/edit

>>46978812
Just in case - with Sacred Tattoo you get +2 to every and all saves

If you make only three saves per day - yes, adaptive luck is slightly better. But I hardly meet days like that - it's usually either none (non-combat day) or more than three.

>>46977631
Anon, spells are actually good, though. None of the Swashbuckler abilities are.

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So I'm a bit late to the party but I just stumbled upon this wanted to ask some questions regarding this:

http://imgur.com/1aE4bNR

Is it only me or does the style look a bit different, perhaps older ? Is it a weird perspective or is left one smaller ? Is there a context ?

From her body type and how they looked under the shirt I was expecting a bigger muffin top and for them to be rounder, bigger and flappier.

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>>46978940
Wrong picture.

>>46978812
A plus 2 to all saves you'll have to make. If you're expecting to have to make less than 3 saves a day then sure, go for it.

What happens if two spellbanes with "spellbane" specified as their baned spell collide?
According to spellbane description, "spellbane" is a valid spell to bane, but there's no stated interaction in such a case.

>>46978990
Aw god damn it. I was still polishing my homebrew!

>>46978990
Should include a Fool's Errand link as well, while you're at it.

>>46979037
Share it with the class tomorrow. And don't rush it - deliver when you're confident with your work.

>>46979045
Can you provide a link?

>>46979074
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jWw7bVMARxrXfRuOW20NlRqXEnS_XGLPT6LHTbz2qME/edit#

Maybe put a note for how it's just a preview and not in official playtest yet, though of course that means it'll have to be changed sometime.

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>>46979087
Okay, here's the new Pastebin for next thread:

http://pastebin.com/5F8RNubX

Please, let me sleep, anons. I still got work and a game to DM later tomorrow evening.

>>46979173
Goodnight.

What does the author mean by "A Role is an archetype-lite that has few mechanical effects and is instead a list of already-existing class features and abilities. When combined together these will make a class seem like a specific version of that class from the setting. For instance, your Fighter could be a Hell-Knight if you focus around Intimidation and the Morningstar. This doesn’t change your character at all, it is just an interesting bit of background."?
Just the usual Striker, Defender, Leader, Controller-thing?
http://www.therobotsvoice.com/2014/04/the_5_best_and_5_worst_things_about_pathfinder.php

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>make a Vampire Paladin (Knight Disciple)
>player opposite me makes a Cleric of Sarenrae

welp nice knowing you guys.

3.5 player here, is there a way to make shadow spells 100% real in PF?

>>46979241
Fetchling arcanist FCB from blood of shadows is one option. (some DM's will allow using it on a more fun class like sorcerer, but YMMV)
Shadow bloodline capstone combined with solid shadows metamagic feat is another.
Pick your poison, anon.

Some advice for GMs:
I think twice now I've been in online games where the players optimised for combat to a higher power level than the GM would have liked - in both cases I've dealt with fights that were interesting and challenging, but the GM thought they didn't work out well because the enemies each got steamrolled in 2-3 hits, or barely scratched the PCs' defenses, and that meant the fight was 'too easy'.

I've realised I don't really think that's the case - I don't judge fights strictly on threat, I judge them on decision complexity: how much you need to think over what you want to do each turn and weigh your options against each other.
These aren't entirely separate, since obviously when enemies can barely scratch you or you can one-shot them, you don't really need to make decisions. But, I've really enjoyed some battles were I was never in any proper danger (as long as I took a bare minimum of caution), but had to make a lot of choices on what to do turn to turn to maximise success or minimise failure - for example, strike focused PoW classes do this well since you'll always be deciding between multiple effective means of attack. The move actions that strikes free up are another resource you get to play with more than full attackers.

PF is a rocket tag game and it's not always accurate to judge how hard or enjoyable a fight was by how much damage the party took or resources they spent.

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>>46977835
I've got a homebrew initiating archetype for the hunter, since I hated that I couldn't get an initiating character with an animal companion from level 1.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1N5I_R5QceisH-gUtmuwcN5Z34mnIT-Jr22T2ZqajdBo/edit

>>46979306
Ravenlords though

But I know what you mean

Ok so Possession seems to be safer than magic jar simply because you can be as far away from your body as you want and still be ok when you dismiss the effect, but anyone think the greater version warrants an 8th level known slot for spontaneous casters like psychics and sorcerers?

Can you use polymorph any object to upgrade an obsolete, lets say juvenile dragon skeleton into its larger cousins?

>>46977919
Because once upon a time the consortium was just regular folks trying to make a decent living. And then Paizo realized that those CN fey in the woods probably don't like the forest being cut, which has to mean the consortium is clearly lawful evil due to their having a conflict with such inhuman and unpredictable creatures.

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>>46977653
>be DM
>monster actually hits the minmaxer
>OMG ANON WHAT THE FUCK IT HIT ME
>mfw

>>46979301
fights also have a high RNG variance.
A fight wihch should have been threatening can easily become trivial due to good initiation and attack rolls at the start.
I am not even talking about critical hits or Save or Suck spells: your warrior going first, hitting twice and getting missed twice, basically quickly eliminating one enemy, changes a lot.

I do enjoy fight complexity, despite the fact that my party is completely ignorant and just charges in and hack and slash everything;
Is there any particular fight setup/idea/scenario/trick that you would suggest in order to encourage and force PCs to make tactical decisions in a fight? how do you avoid everything going terribly wrong if they do something wrong?

>>46979218
It.. means exactly what it says. A Role is basically a list of class features you already have access to, and basically says "if you choose these things, you'll be like This!" Basically a how-to replicate a certain organization or individual. Like the example given: the Hellknight Role is "as a fighter, put a skill point in Intimidation every level, and focus your weapon focus/training on the Morningstar." It adds no new options, it's just a guide to using the ones you already have.

>>46979306
>I hated that I couldn't get an initiating character with an animal companion from level 1.

Hussar.

>>46979558
>>46979324
Okay, lemme put it another way

I wanted one that didn't have a ridiculously limited animal companion selection. "Bird" or "Horse" just doesn't do it for me. Plus, I like the mechanics of the hunter.

>>46979439
In which books can they be found? I've never seen them and am curious.

>>46978699
Correct, and you can add any weapon to the list of discipline weapons, so any weapon can get +2 damage every time you use a broken blade maneuver.

>>46979301
I gotta say that I know where these GMs are coming from. We can't see your thought process, all we see is that all our prep for a fight got curbstomped in four or five rounds. Sometimes we even try to set up an interesting sort of fight that should require some thought to handle effectively, and then some super optimizer player has a PC with three different ways to solve it with minimal effort.

Before it was almost only ever casters who did that, so it took a little effort but could be sort of contained. Now PoWE is turning martials into weird psuedo-casters with some of the effects they get, plus recovery mechanics making it spammable.

>>46979691
I know, and I've GMed for optimizers myself so I know how that can be.
The main thing I'm saying is to think about what goes on behind the scenes like that. Someone can pull out a winning combination of actions on their turn to succeed - and sometimes that doesn't mean it was too easy, it means you made that player think hard and look over all their options to narrow it down to the best one.
If they pull out some combination of three or four different class features and chain them together, each step needed thought - it looks like minimal effort but that's because you just see the result.


What sort of stuff is PoW:E doing that bugs you? I do think there are some over the top things but not much strikes me as just a 'win button' the same way certain spells can work.
Also I kinda suspect you're my GM but this is an interesting topic

>>46977653
I want to engage in platonic camraderie with a Strix!

Tell me about where your characters live /pfg/

Do they have a nice comfy house? do they own an inn or something like that? Or do they live in a fancy tower?

Do they live in a ship or an airship that they sail around to adventure?

>>46978693
Don't forget to be a Warpriest for swift Divine Favors, and make sure to buy yourself that Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier too.

>>46979437
Well, I don't think there are any golden rules, but some tips off the top of my head:
-Encourage PCs having principles rather than being CN murderhobos. Then they might have other goals every fight, like ensuring the safety of innocents, reducing property damage, wanting to give enemies the chance to surrender peacefully, etc, and tearing into the enemy no holds barred isn't always the best way to do that.
Sometimes in randomish encounters when I was sure the party could handle themselves, I've given up turns or made intentionally bad decisions to fit character RP. Though when there's a boss and we really need to get serious, I'd RP a decent way for the character to overcome mental weaknesses.

-PoW initiating helps martials, it really does. Not just in power level, but in options. Choosing which maneuvers to use. Having your move and swift actions every turn and something to do with each one. PoW class features generally help - knight chandler's candle and ravenlord's gloom are simple things but they add a constant extra layer of decisions.
The 3/4 BAB classes are better at this because Full Attack is a less obvious choice for them, but I've enjoyed warlord and zealot too. (Haven't played a warder)

-Terrain and positioning. Really easy to underestimate this. Where to move is an important decisions characters might make every turn.

-Bait characters with their strengths. If a character has no idea what to do, then they'll default to the boring 'hit as hard as they can' option and zone out. But if a character has two /good/ options then they need to think. An easy example is having an enemy that has a weakness that one PC is good at targeting, but that PC is engaged with another enemy at the other side of the battlefield. Do they go over and help the party with that one, or finish the fight they're in? Are they willing to try and make the reflex save to jump through a wall of fire, or wade through AoOs, to use their special move when it's needed?

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>>46977835
Road Rumble, a discipline that's supposed to make you play Street Fighter in PF.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1T6SL20wo1p98czHNie7QPvyMk1r9VeRyxmEnAOk0xmY/edit
pls gib feedback, balancing it is hard

>>46979956
There are only two characters I've had that have been in one place long enough to have a home... actually, they were kind of the same character, just made at different times with different options.

Ellis was a young child in a noble family known for a long history of wizardly talent... unfortunately, he was a sorcerer, and his traditional parents were having none of that shit. They shipped him off to a wizard's academy to try to force some prepared casting into him, which is how he developed his unique style of casting... he was a 3.5 Sorcerer/Wizard/Master Arcanist. He ended up falling out with his family, and lived in a small suite of rooms attached to a tea shop in a small city. He did translations, scribing, and light research as a day job, and did errands for those who needed magical help whenever the opportunity arose. He also used his alchemical skill to help spice up the teas of the shop's owner to help pay rent. On the side, he ran a small book-trading thing: if you brought him a book he didn't have yet, he'd scribe you a copy of any book he did have (assuming doing so wouldn't threaten the fabric of reality or something). His rooms were cozy, with warm dark wood and soft, comfy (if a bit worn) furniture.

Arthur is a later version of the character with the same origin story, only I created him after learning about the Arcanist class in Pathfinder (so much easier to do the concept, and available from level 1 at that). He never had a "normal" home, instead living in a permanent magnificent mansion installed in an animated ironwood wagon that he'd crafted himself. He still preferred cozy, warm, comfortable living quarters, he just had a lot more space and a house that could fly, defend itself against intruders, and travel on its own. He still did the book copying thing, but sadly there was nobody in the group willing to run a tea shop out of his wagon, and he didn't have any spare points for Profession (Tea Shop Owner).

>>46979956
A private demiplane for my currently highest level character (Empyreal bloodline sorcerer, 15th level).

The demiplane is actually central to a lot of my contingencies, defenses, and abilities, mostly oriented around his (many and varied) tattoos and runic markings on him. The big one is his 1/day immediate action protection that allows him to be treated as if he was standing in his demiplane for 1d4 rounds, like an ultimate defense (can't hit what isn't there). But he has other stuff as well, like adapting a tattoo to function like a portable hole he can reach into his demiplane armoury for and pull out weapons. He uses them as material components for the Storm of Blades spell and shoots greatswords at people, mostly. He also likes to pull out random shit from other places in the demiplane, like his entire reservoir full of whiskey that makes the party's Barbarian incredibly jealous.

Demiplane is styled as a monastery-like structure on the side of a dormant volcano (all covered in ice and snow, think High Hrothgar in Skyrim), but also with a fancy cave inside the mountain part (kind of like Journey to the Centre of the Earth) teeming with flowers, plants and a waterfall shower. He's got a dryad in there who looks after it for him while he's not around, she has a pretty fucking sweet deal. Also a bunch of unseen servants, a kitchen and dining room that produces a heroes' feast once a day, a mind blank trap that triggers on entry into the demiplane...

Yeah, I went pretty all-out on this private retreat. At least half my WBL went towards setting the place up exactly how I want it to be, and it's taken a good six months to create it. Next I'm going to be working on defenders. I'm tossing up between bound outsiders (risky if they get loose) or clockwork automatons (loyal but less independent).

For day to day stuff, though, the party uses an airship or teleport if we're in a serious hurry.

>>46980005
I'm not sure about it anon.

I do think it would be cute to include some references to pro players though like YSB's hugo slaps - where once one connects more are coming, or daigo's perfect parry (call it the "umehara" make it a counter - negate all damage and initiate a strike of your own in return, if below [$value] of HP, recover all expended maneuvers and initiate a *second* manuever).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS7hkwbKmBM

>>46980094
Fool's Errand already has a Daigo counter.

>>46980122
So? Yours doesn't. Theirs is just a "negate a full attack" counter anyway.

>>46980150
Eh, there's Crushing Rebuke from Eternal Guardian, and quite a few other counters can also end up negating a full attack depending on the situation.

>>46979831
could be if the last few sessions were rather buggy[/spolier]

On phone at work so kinda slow

Big issues I guess are
Banned vancian and psionics, use SoP instead
PoWE brings psionic systems back in
Means to build SAD PC's, typically a sign of the brokeness of casters
Counters to Nope at everything
Strikes deal damage and spell effects, like I needed to deal with another form of the damn magus
Recovery mechanics make it all spammable and protect the user while recovering
Another mention of hatred for counters because skill based counters are the same as Emergency Force Sphere at-will
More stuff that hasn't come up yet but will clearly be a headache when it does
The entirety of Fool's Errand for example

And really I can learn to keep up and play on that level but it's no fun. The game was not supposed to have the level of combat that I now find necessary to make even a dent in the PCs, and it's really no fun to run it. I'd rather just say that once they arrive at a fight they auto-win, just to avoid wasting prep time on it. Crushing fights certainly feels like what my players find the most fun, so I may as well just hand it to them.

So what spells do you consider instant win buttons? Some can be pretty nasty but unless you have a Mass Dominate Monster that bypasses immunities and has an unbeatably high DC I don't think many spells will instantly end a good sized fight

>>46980005
Overall, not fond of the stances or strikes. I'm unsure on the comboing the manuevers. I don't /really/ like the new resource you've attempted to implement... and I think you're focused way too much on shoto's and their moves.

You're greatly missing out on attempts to stun enemies, which is a large portion of how street fightan werks. Add a boost or two that gives a chance to stun, with it's DC increased by number of hits in a combo.

Other problem is that because your maneuvers are intended to be chained, you can easily expend all readied manuevers in just a single turn.

light/medium/heavy strike - I don't like them. I don't mind the idea of chaining them so much, but these are basically the same thing with huge penalties to attack

It could be okay, but it needs a lot of work and I don't really like what you've got going currently. Some of your higher tier 'manuevers' are still just basic punches and kicks when they should be shit like the kongou kokuretsu zan or shun goku satsu.

>>46980279
Oh goddammit what the fuck spoilers?

>>46979397
>read the spell description
>find out
>???
>profit.

>>46980279
Not the anon you're responding to, but...

>Banned vancian and psionics, use SoP instead
To each their own.

>PoWE brings psionic systems back in
This complaint makes little sense to me. DSP writes psionics, of course they're gonna have it. PoW 1 had psionics too.

>Means to build SAD PC's, typically a sign of the brokeness of casters
SAD is not a bad thing. Casters are strong because their spells; ideally, PCs WOULD be either SAD or mostly SAD (primary ability and secondary less important ability).

>Counters to Nope at everything
Being able to say "no" to the large amount of bullshit effects that monsters have is a good thing, especially spellcasting monsters.

>Strikes deal damage and spell effects, like I needed to deal with another form of the damn magus
Now it just sounds like you're complaining about people being able to attack with more than just full attacks. "Spell effects" are mostly limited to 'it's a debuff'.

>Recovery mechanics make it all spammable and protect the user while recovering
Most recovery methods are utter shit to use in combat. Most combats tend to last 3ish rounds before they're decided, and stuff after is just cleanup. Maneuvers are spammable if you build for it, but that's not really a problem, is it?

>Another mention of hatred for counters because skill based counters are the same as Emergency Force Sphere at-will
So use more enemies, or use more flat-footing things, or use enemies with more actions, or give enemies counters too. This is basic encounter design stuff, man. Take a page out of 4e's book.

>The entirety of Fool's Errand for example
Fool's Errand's grasp mechanic is gonna be a headache, yeah. I hope they change it so it's a bit easier to escape.

>And really I can learn to keep up and play on that level but it's no fun.
So don't use PoW in your games. A lot of this sounds like personal problems. You've ID'd the intent of skill counters but hate the result, etc. Send it the same way as magic and be done with it

>>46980279
>counters everything
Counters everything once per turn. Do you know how immediate actions work?

>>46980279
Well my thoughts on those in order:
-PoWE does have psionic elements but it's much more of a flavor thing than a mechanics thing, the Warsoul Soulknife has been around since the original PoW and apart from using power points and psionic focus, nothing in PoWE really touches any psionic manifesting, except for archetypes of existing psionic classes. Though there are some PoW archetypes for half casters like alchemist and warpriest as well.
-The psychic armory is a really strong archetype and I kind of think it's overtuned but that's not so much a PoW:E thing as just a single psionic archetype: there's nothing else in PoW:E that can match it in SAD.
-Counters are a big gamechanger and while I think it's mostly for the better I do think it's a bit harsh using replenishing resources to negate an opponent spending resources. Some of the main maneuvers I have problems with are counters. They have their limitations though which I think I mentioned to you before.
-Strikes... ehhh this is a really big difference of opinion. I think reducing straight damage to deal debuffs is a form of -good- variety, and often it's not as good as just killing something really fast. Slow is one of the most crippling debuffs though so I can see where you're coming from there, a bit.
-Recovery mechanics are different between classes. For the soulknife, that's a full round they have to spend sitting out of the battle. Harbinger recovery kept running into a no-free-swift-action wall. Other classes like Rubato have an easier time. The effects maneuvers can create are weaker than equal level spells since they're spammable, but since vancian and psionics are removed, I can get how they'd stand out more.
-Fool's Errand... I'm really curious why you think it's a problem because it's probably the lowest damaging discipline in favor of more battlefield control. Is it Grasp? I've got some reservations on that, I admit.

(Continued)

>>46980434
To be fair, I think the sweet spot is for every class to be somewhere around DAD. Two attributes, and then everyone wants decent Con/Wis/Dex for defensive reasons depending on saves, so they end up being split between about three decent scores which I think is where most classes SHOULD be.

>>46980509
>-The psychic armory is a really strong archetype and I kind of think it's overtuned but that's not so much a PoW:E thing as just a single psionic archetype: there's nothing else in PoW:E that can match it in SAD.
this desu senpai

>>46980279
>>46980509

If you don't enjoy GMing for it though, that's a pretty important thing I think you should talk to the players about solving rather than just letting it wear you out. I don't want to see that happen since personally I'm enjoying the game and found that the battles so far were pretty fun; I appreciate what you're doing and don't want you to burn out on it.
And again, the fights feel like they go by quickly but there's plenty of thought that happens in the background and I think the players appreciate that.

I like my character a lot, but I'd be okay with swapping a bunch of my maneuvers out for weaker ones to bring her in line, and I remember the Rubato player said the same thing before.

As for what counts as instant win... well, I didn't have anything really in mind, I was just saying that I don't think PoW:E has many of those either. Temporal Body Adjustment though, I don't think I'll ever be okay with using that in a standard power campaign

>>46980434
Not gonna greentext each point because phone, but...

I don't recall Golden Lion, Primal Fury, Scarlet Throne, Iron Tortoise etc using psionics, sorry.

No, PCs should be balanced. Primary stat and enough secondary stats you can't afford to dump more than maybe one.

Shutting down everything thrown at a PC is not good. Just boring.

There's taking a -2 or being pushed back and then there's stuff like Slow for multiple rounds. Well maybe I can just give ever enemy haste forever?

As I said it takes a different degree of combat to make a dent. Like four times the party size and ranging from their level +2 to level +6. They still steamrolled everything. But at least it lasted long enough that two PCs took damage.

Yep, lots of enemies already. Just because I can jack the difficulty up does not excuse inherent design flaws.

Might just ban PoWE though. PoW didn't feel quite as OP to deal with. But I'd rather find a solution that's not quite so harsh, my players do enjoy the option. I just think it goes a bit over the top.

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>>46979956
My gestalt Alchemist/Fiendbound Marauder lives in the small hut his grandfather gave him when he moved to Longacre. Roughly 90% of the area is taken up by his makeshift alchemical lab, while the rest is a simple bed, a firepit and assorted other small items he needs to live.

Assuming things go well in this game, he will also purchase his grandfather's old home and restore it in his memory.

>>46980602
>I don't recall Golden Lion, Primal Fury, Scarlet Throne, Iron Tortoise etc using psionics, sorry.
PoW 1 had Psychic Warrior and Soulknife archetypes.

>No, PCs should be balanced. Primary stat and enough secondary stats you can't afford to dump more than maybe one.
Balance runs far deeper than stats. By that logic, the Kineticist is overpowered.

>Shutting down everything thrown at a PC is not good. Just boring.
Only if you make it boring. In my experience, counters DON'T shut down everything thrown at the PCs. Hell, I play 3.p, and most people run around with wand chambers of Wings of Cover (aka "just stop something") and it rarely gets boring.

>There's taking a -2 or being pushed back and then there's stuff like Slow for multiple rounds. Well maybe I can just give ever enemy haste forever?

You could, I guess.

>As I said it takes a different degree of combat to make a dent. Like four times the party size and ranging from their level +2 to level +6. They still steamrolled everything.
CR is bullshit and always has been bullshit. A well-optimized party of 1pp characters will steamroll encounters of level+2 to level+6.

Path of War just has a much higher floor, because it was built to allow people to pick shit they feel like without caring and still do well.

>Might just ban PoWE though. PoW didn't feel quite as OP to deal with. But I'd rather find a solution that's not quite so harsh, my players do enjoy the option. I just think it goes a bit over the top.
PoW E has a lot less numbers power than PoW 1. All it's got is added versatility. You've stated you banned psionics and vancian and used Spheres instead. Spheres is built around a pretty low power level (outside of Alteration/Conjuration and a couple advanced talents), while PoW is meant to exist within the rest of the game.

It really just sounds like you don't like people having versatile tools in combat (debuffs, good defenses, etc). Which is fine, I guess, but that's a problem with you, not PoW.

>>46980564
Eh, Warlord can get pretty close now. Get Elemental Nimbus stance for Cha to damage, and a combination of brave/victory/flanker's gambit+tactical flanker for cha to attack rolls.

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All these balance arguments are starting to make me glad my players can't be arsed to learn PoW even when I allow it.

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Asurant Aegis.
Alignment: Furious Angry.

>>46980602
>I don't recall Golden Lion, Primal Fury, Scarlet Throne, Iron Tortoise etc using psionics, sorry.

The two big psionics things in PoWE are the Zealot class and the Sleeping Goddess discipline. Like >>46980509 said, power points and psionic focus are more like ki points for those instead of any real psionic casting.
Like, you could rewrite all the descriptions of Veiled Moon maneuvers to be psionic without changing the mechanics and it would be just as psionic as Sleeping Goddess is.

PoW:E can feel stronger because it has supernatural/magic flavor with lots of cool descriptions and lightning bolts and lasers, but in actual damage numbers and combat effects it's more stable than PoW1.

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>>46980694
Modus Operandi: PUNCH EVERYTHING.

>>46980482
Do you know what Daring Hero does?

>>46980509
>>46980601
>>46980668
I'm gonna have to continue this on a proper keyboard later to keep up, probably irc with my players. Some fair points though, and I do want to make things work. Will keep these comments in mind.

>>46980692
Honestly, PoW is only a problem with balance if you don't use it as a GM.

Big enemies (or at least captains/lieutenants/commmanders of enemies) should absolutely have counters and maybe even stances. Stronger mooks should have a counter or two, as well. If you can't be arsed to rebuild the enemies (or build them as initiators to start with) then you probably shouldn't be playing with PoW.

That said, you should be designing enemies to be good fights for your players REGARDLESS of what classes they are playing. Adding PoW just means you tag a few extra toys on each enemy. It makes them more dangerous, prevents the players from one-rounding every enemy, etc.

>>46980694
>>46980720
Can you even get six arms as an Aegis? I know four is easily doable.

>>46980694
Pretty sure Asura is some kinda Daevic of Wrath.

>>46980725
>Daring Hero
So 1/2/3 times per encounter, as they level up, they can use a counter without the immediate action. That's also their main class feature outside of the anti-mook stance, while other PrCs have offensive boosts.

>>46976300
>>46976435

9th level spells. In combat. I'm joining a campaign at level 16 and was told to minmax.

>>46980833
Also, I am an arcanist, and the rest of my equipment is basically rods of quickening, piercing, etc. I have all the things previously mentioned.

I will probably need to be able to use these in combat to stop time and heal my allies if we are going to survive.

>>46980748
>>46980764
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/equipment/psionic-items/universal-items#TOC-Gloves-of-the-Beast

Simplest way to do it would be use 4 tentacles and then gloves of the beast them to slam or claw attacks. Though I'm not 100% on if you actually *could* do that.

Though for significantly higher points cost you could go lesser extra arms x2, extra arms x2 and greater extra arms x2 for a whopping total of 12 customization points

>>46980764
>>46980748
>>46980694
>>46980720
Aberrant or just regular aegis / barbarian gestalt fits asura pretty well DESU.

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Is the Ravenlord archetype for Harbingers any good? I sort of want to play a dude with a bird companion, and this seems like the most straightforward way to do it in PoW outside of the Ranger archetype which I am not fond of.

>>46981138
Yes. My opinion is in no way biased.

I'll let someone give you a real answer now, it's early and my urge to make shitty jokes is strong.

>>46981138
It's one of the only ways to get an animal companion with a positive int mod? You can ride it so the loss of fly speed isn't a big deal. And then whatever Gloom was.

>>46981235
Gloom is incredible for a Cursed Razor Harbi, just because you can use it to spread Curse.

>tfw I'm getting attached to my character
She feels almost like a real person now. What do? I don't want to become a Mary Sue like freak obsessed with their character..

Gonna be playing in a 15PB 1pp only level 1 campaign soon. (Don't ask)
I kinda want to go for a character with an animal companion, but I'm not sure which class to pick. Every class with one is MAD, and I can't afford to be MAD with 15 (fifteen) point buy. What's your recommendation, /pfg/? Aside from don't play.

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>>46981358
There's only one solution and it starts with a B and ends with an ULLY.

BULLY THE ONES YOU LOVE THE MOST. MAKE THEM CRY. DO IT.

>>46981138
Ravenlord is really fun. When it hits 9th and 10th levels and gets upgraded gloom and INT to damage it becomes amazing.

>Play in a campaign and make a young half-succubus girl who wants to avoid lewds
>Also make her a ravenlord because I just wanted to play one

>As I develop her build and backstory I decide that she was born full succubus but used arcane arts to fragment most of the demonic succubus influence away from her soul, and shape it into a raven that's separate but intrinsically connected to her
>This raven is full of CE succubus sadism and mischief but follows her orders with a worrying loyalty, even though it does scary things when left on its own
>This explains why she lacks most of the standard succubus abilities

>Tfw I stop and realise I accidentally made a completely legit ravenlord backstory by accident

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Alrighty, /pfg/, I may need a little advice. For a bit I've been debating whether or not for Elsbeth to take a single level dip into an Initiating class, in this case it would be a Zweihander Sentinel+Dervish Defender Warder; Gaining Int to AC, gaining Aegis as a free shield bonus, and having a few extra maneuvers and a more lenient recovery method at my disposal seem pretty neat. Also I wanted to get my hands on Fool's Errand somehow because grabbing doods and tossing them through the air and/or smashing them into the floor offers everything I could ever want. And the BBEG is a Cataclysm Mage, so having some anti-casting/magic abilities could really be handy. However, that would also mean I'll never get to the Lv.20 capstone, which is just basically a final feat or Arcane Discovery, and also diluted casting levels.

Would a dip not hurt too badly, or even be beneficial?

>>46981358
I know the feel, anon. This guy's got the right idea >>46981398 !

>>46981468
(Do Zweihander Sentiner and Dervish Defender really stack? I wouldn't have thought)
A dip would undoubtedly hurt your casting, but well, you'll then be a caster/initiator. It won't ruin everything and you'll still be at a respectable level of competence but you need to decide if martialing is worth always being a bit behind on casting.

>>46981455
Elise and Lenore are adorable.

>>46981398
>>46981468
How to bully my own character, though?

>>46981577

Give her a filthy habit, like kissing Half-Orcs or never washing her hair.

>>46981513
They SHOULD stack, if you ignore that both remove shield proficiency, and that you can't have both the shield bonus and INT to AC at the same time without a double weapon.

>>46981577
Don't be afraid to have her do stupid things, or make decisions that have immediate bad consequences for her.

Ie roleplay her character properly rather than trying to make her always come out on top

Getting attached to characters is good. Just hope your GM is the type to lean away from playerkills.

>>46981513
>>46981624
>Both trade out shield proficiency
..Oh. Well shit. Dervish Defender it is then. Sorry 'bout that.

Anyhoo, I was planning on perhaps taking the level dip sometime around Lv.18 or so. Loooong ways down the line, but with what the GM told us, we could take on the BBEG at 16 or so and possibly succeed, but the game can go to 18-20 if we really wanted to.

>>46981650
>Don't be afraid to have her do stupid things, or make decisions that have immediate bad consequences for her.
>Ie roleplay her character properly rather than trying to make her always come out on top
But I already do that anon.
That's part of the reason why I'm afraid she feels too real.
>>46981650
>Getting attached to characters is good. Just hope your GM is the type to lean away from playerkills.
The DM is almost as attached to her as I am, I'm pretty sure he won't kill her.
>>46981612
I'm not sure how I feel about that.

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>>46981692
>I'm not sure how I feel about that.

It doesn't matter how you feel about it.

It's how she feels about it.

Give her an Orc lover at home, you know you want to.

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>no session this weekend because GM is burnt out from work
>no outstanding plans for the weekend, nothing in particular to even fill in the time
>stuck in character theorycrafting loops for three characters that will probably end in disappointment
>no more drive to work on the mini-adventure I wanted to run, since I can't tell if anyone else in the group is actually interested in Path of War
>mfw I desperately need a life outside the internet

So how's it been going with your group, /pfg/? Have any characters, classes, or rules you've been itching to use that you haven't gotten to yet?

>>46981722
B-but she already has a husbando. Orcs are lewd.
Also, there were exactly 0 orcs or half-orcs in this campaign, I'm not even entirely sure they exist in our world.

>>46981684
Doesn't seem like a large problem.

At 16, with a level dip, you'd have IL 8 so that's a large step for some maneuvers, but let me ask you, what exactly about initiators would make the most sense for your character. Some of the good class features get unlocked being level one, so what exactly are you hoping to really get out of the class that you can't already achieve as Elsbeth the wizard?

>>46981692
>But I already do that anon.
>That's part of the reason why I'm afraid she feels too real.

Then there's nothing wrong, you're exactly what a good player should be. As long as you're not spotlight hogging, it can only lead to good things.

>>46981744
>B-but she already has a husbando. Orcs are lewd.

>She already has a husbando
>I want to bully this girl

I think you know exactly what you need to do.

Can you tell us more about this character?

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>>46981765
I already told about her quite a bit around these parts.
CN-turned-CE elven girl who fell in love with a NE nobleman and killed his family.
Since both me and the DM were too attached to her to let her die, the DM suggested me to turn her into a background character while I roll another one for adventuring.
Eventually it boiled down to me roleplaying her family life with her husbando in PM with the DM. It gets a bit lewd at times. And she ended up with massively more character development than any other RPG character I ever had, making her feel way too real.

>>46977771
Thank you, and sorry for your almost-quints

>>46981811

Sooooo you're looking for a reason to bully her... Why?

You've done everything you can do with her, get the husbando to squirt a baby inside her and move onto the other character.

>>46981811
Isn't it obvious, anon? Your new character needs to cuck and murder your old one. Thus the cycle continues...

>>46981811

Tell us about your new character, because >>46981885 could be a thing that happens.

>>46981560
No bullying outside of game time ;_;

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>>46981867
>>46981811

>get the husbando to squirt a baby inside her and move onto the other character.

What if she's infertile?

Giving her a barren womb would be an excellent way to bully her.

And then you can make your new character turbo-fertile and be everything she envies.

>>46981867
>You've done everything you can do with her, get the husbando to squirt a baby inside her
Already.
>>46981867
>and move onto the other character.
I suppose I have to do that. I'll miss her. God damn it, how did I get so attached to a character?
>>46981885
>>46981897
My current adventuring character is a NG Dervish Dancer Bard with a customised vow of nonviolence (took a while to work it out mechanically with the DM). Not quite the cucking-and-murdering type.

Is Unchained Barbarian better than normal Barbarian?

>>46981936
Nah, it's a clumsy downgrade as written by someone who thought converting +4 Str into +2 atk/dmg was too much math for fragile player brains.

>>46981936
For a few niche builds(like TWF), maybe. For the most part, it's sidegrade at BEST and arguably a downgrade.

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>>46981740
Psychoportation/Metacreativity Shattered Mind.

My weekend game is dead, so I'm bored as hell now.

I actually think this character would be really hilarious to play in a group of initiators, since his gimmick is already 'sits down and does nothing most of the battle except direct his tricked-out Astral Guardian to go punch shit'

It's basically a magical lazylord.

How unviable and shit would it be to go for a Prodigious Two-Weapon Fighting Wild Rager Barbarian?

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>>46981753
Elsbeth seeks to prove something to her foes and comrades, but also to herself. She has been in the back thus far to assess the situation and give orders, but she feels as though there's something more she can and should do; that if there are preventative measures hampering her magical capabilities from aiding her allies, she can reliably move in and solve an issue before it gets too out-of-hand. If something is slowing down her magic, she's have non-magical options And if it is magic that's stopping her in some way, then training in Fool's Errand can stop the enemy Caster hindering her. She also wishes to display that she is more than /just/ another spell slinger, rather a capable warrior worthy of her position and leadership, not only to her would-be allies, but also to her potential foes.

And isn't that part of the true essence to a Wizard's mythos? They wield with care not just magic, but all tools and powers they have available; a never-ending quest to learn and perfect. It's a display of what she's learned with the allies she's fought along side and the friends she's made.

>>46981468
With a 1-level dip keep in mind you'll only have 5 maneuvers known and 3 readied, unless you spend more feats.
If you just want maneuvers and Int to AC another option you could take is the Edge Lord Harbinger which gives the same for a 1 level dip, and has a more action-efficient recovery mechanic for a caster.

>>46982025
TWF(especially with prodigious TWF) isn't bad, it's just usually strictly worse than THF. Wild rager looks fairly terrible, though.

>>46982116
But you get a whole extra attack, how can it be bad?

>>46981740
>since I can't tell if anyone else in the group is actually interested in Path of War

Ask them?
Players are usually willing to join new games, see how many people would be interested if you said it was PoW-only.

>>46982129
The extra attack isn't worth a no-save confusion every time you kill an enemy. It ESPECIALLY isn't worth it on a TWF build, since you already have a lot of attacks so one more isn't going to make a big difference.

>>46982181
But it's not an actual confusion, it just makes you attack the nearest enemy (something you'd do already anyway)

>>46982200
Read the ENTIRE ability.

>>46982226
Fuck, it took me like 3 re-reads to realize that it sucks dick.
Whoops.

>>46982068
That's an awesome bit of fluff motivation.

However at your level, you'll never effectively become a true gish in the sense of wizard on the front lines.

Some disciplines may assist you though, and grabbing some armor and weapon profiencies certainly arent an issue, especially if you get mitral chain shirt at ASF 0, because unless you sacrifice a feat for arcane armor, your really likely better off with upgraded robes and emergency forcesphere.

So if it fits the character go for it. But a one level dip, I'm not sure will benefit you and I say this as a gish player, because the boon of martial/caster gishing is building up towards those prestige classes that synergies your classes.

But if you want it for fluff, go for it. Elsbeth is an awesome character concept which I've shamelessly taken as npc background character to my own group.

I'm looking to tear some serious ass apart as a core-only melee martial. I fully understand the ramifications of not being a caster, but the only other person in the party is a face-style socialite Bard so it's up to me to make sure the combats actually go through.
What's my best option? Barbarian? Some kind of heavily optimized Fighter? Hunter, maybe?

>>46982141
I actually have, but the topic gets sidestepped. I can't even get a straight answer on if anyone wants to try doing a mini adventure on the side.

Can I use the Emulate Alignment ability of Use Magic Device with an item that causes the wielder to take negative levels if they aren't a specific alignment in order to avoid taking the negative levels even if my actual alignment is not correct?

IE, you find a set of grey Robes of the Archmagi, which provides a lot of useful benefits but also bestows two negative levels on any good or evil character that wears them. Can a good or evil character wearing the robes avoid the negative levels by passing a DC 30 UMD check?

>>46982326
Core seriously limits your options, so barbarian or paladin is probably the best option. Hunter isn't core, so that's irrelevant in your case.

>>46981928
How do you gain experience?

>>46982326
Barbarian can do the job pretty well, and there are a few different ways you can take.
Off the top of my head I know there's a good Invincible Rager build and a good mounted charger build. Savage Technologist is also nice for guns.

>>46982351
>Hunter isn't core
Shit, really? Woops.
Guess it's Barbarian then.

>>46982363
Invulnerable Rager looks neat, I'll probably go after that then.

>>46982344
I'm pretty sure that works by RAW.

>>46982343
Announce that you're doing it and see who's interested. Then you'll have a commitment, and it'll push them to take action.

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>>46982079
I'm aware. She's also been taking the Martial Training feats to get her hands on Golden Lion; though recovered separately, it still adds to her maneuvers/stances known and readied.
>Spoiler
But.. but Elsbeth isn't edgy enough. Mechanically it could be a neat fit, but flavor-wise it might not gel as well.

>>46982245
Gish isn't really the goal in mind, so I think I'm solid enough as is. And if things somehow don't work out well enough, the GM offers retraining when we get enough downtime. As far as armor concerns go, that's what the Twilight enchantment is for! GM has been using an Eberron conversion site for the most part and luckily enough Twilight was one of the enchantments brought over. Which is handy because there are some other armor augments that's help Elsbeth's Leadership score and abilities on some recent loot we've happened upon, but it would still need to be plugged onto armor of some kind.

>But if you want it for fluff, go for it. Elsbeth is an awesome character concept which I've shamelessly taken as npc background character to my own group.
>mfw

>>46982363
As I recall, Core doesn't have any archetypes.

So I want play to someone who can punch bones and organs outta enemies, how do I best do this?
Level doesn't matter

>>46982427
Access to 3pp allowed

>>46982427
Not direct bone/organ removal, but your best shot is a Called Shot build Steelfist Commando Warlord. Of course, the Called Shot rules are optional so you'll have to ask the DM.

>>46982427

Bloody Fist rage power

>>46982245
>But if you want it for fluff, go for it. Elsbeth is an awesome character concept which I've shamelessly taken as npc background character to my own group.

Boobs and all?

I wanna make a character that focuses on hunting down monsters that try to blend into humanoid society

What ways are there to sniff out beings like this outside of being a spellcaster and casting whatever divination spell?

>>46982505
>spoiler

Is it possible to take one without the other?

>>46982574

Lots of knowledge.

>>46982574
Investigator seems like a decent way to go about it

How do I make a non-shit Rogue without any 3pp stuff or multiclassing?

>>46982116
>>46982129
>>46982181
>>46982200
>>46982226
>>46982240
Wild Rager is actually pretty okay as a dip. You can multiclass out into anything else with rage after two levels, getting the extra attack while the DC never scales.

>>46982653
make a slayer or investigator instead

>>46982397
>twilight enchantment

Say no more that stuff is the fucking dogsbollocks. It's probably the best armor for a caster ever concieved.

But I will side with:>>46982079
Harbinger is a better deal for a caster than a warder.

Warder makes sense for what you want as a martial class dip.

Harbinger (emotions are just that, you don't need to fall into the edgy trap so heavily touted here) synergizes better.

But that's up to you. You're not gishing so be mindful that you'll want as many maneuvers as you can squeeze from your dipping class, and have a refresh of those abilities.

>>46982653
>>46982674
Unchained rogue with Eldritch Scoundrel is perfectly playable. T3 with or without Hidden Blade.

Are there any non-exotic 1h weapons (preferably swords) that can be finessed, besides the Rapier and Sword Cane?

I seem to recall the Aldori Dueling Sword being effectively a longsword you can finesse, but you have to waste an EWP feat on that, and that's retarded.

>>46982694
>Eldritch Scoundrel
So, wait, this is basically Magus-Rogue, then?
Looks interesting.

How do I make the enemy concept of "slayer that pretends to be harmless background NPC, walks up to the most vulnerable PC, suddenly takes out a pair of short swords and goes to down with sneak attacks/death attack with his first strike" one that won't make people ragequit the game?

Is that possible? Do I just have to properly train them to be on the lookout for stuff like that? I realized how pointless Big Bad Monster fights are against pathfinder characters past the first couple levels so I wanna start using enemies that use strategy instead

>>46982694
unchained rogue is only playable because you turned him into a meh spellcaster

slayer and investigator still feel like rogues and you mainly do rogue things

>>46982731
Yeah, you can make it even more Magus-y with the VMC if you like. It's more of a single class Arcane Trickster by itself, with the advantage of being able to cast ninja tricks as spells.

Unlimited use of Vanishing Trick and Invisible Blade for a 1st-level spell slot (or Pearl of Power, wink wink) per use!

>>46982079
>>46982681
There's still a looong time until any possible cross-classing may take place, but both seems like decent-enough options. Harbinger does have a more streamlined recovery option, however, I fear potentially choking on my Swifts. A silly fear, I admit, but it's there all the same. But again, a lot can happen from Lv.9 to 16+; best to keep the options open.

Many thanks for your input!

>Ricks aren't candy, captcha

>>46982681
ASF was a shit mechanic from the beginning, and you don't need twilight to overcome it (twilight's actually overpriced compared to other 3.5 options).

Casters are overpowered, but they're overpowered because spells are overpowered, not because they can wear armor.

>>46982806
>*rocks
Fucking...

>>46982826
I seriously thought "ricks" was a street name for some kind of drug, that I'm not cool enough to know about.

What would you say is the knowledge check to realize that someone is a sorcerer and not a wizard?

>>46982849
Arcana or Spellcraft, GM depending.

>>46982849
Arcana. It specifically says it governs magical traditions.

>>46982861
>>46982862
I misspoke, I more what would the DC be

>>46982883
i'd say 15

>>46982883
10+CL I'd say
Could be opposed by Bluff if the guy knows you're trying to figure it out.

>>46980692
It's not actually all that bad. Counters are an immediate, so 2 enemies attacking the same person in one round is enough to defeat that. Strike debuffs allow martials access to weaker versions of caster-only effects like slow. Just add some ranged doods and an initiator or 2 to combat to spice things up. It's not like enemies aren't allowed all the same maneuvers PCs can have.

>>46982849
>>46982883
Like, determining what casting class they may be? If using Kn: Arcana or Spellcraft as a magical equivalent to Kn: Martial, then the DC should be 20+ target's CL

>>46980847
You could go Occultist. In one more level, you'd be able to summon 3 Nalfeshnees as a standard action. That's a CR 17 encounter by itself. Mite b cool

>>46981396
Druid with focus on casting? Could buff up your companion nice and good

something I can't seem to find an answer to, can you sneak attack using POW maneuvers?

I assume you would since you can sneak attack with spells and both are standard actions, but I look at stuff like this and it sounds very silly

>Dragon Assault
>The initiator makes a full round attack against a target(s), the first successful hit inflicting normal damage. Each subsequent successful attack inflicts an additional 1d6 points of damage that carry over to the next attack, the third attack inflicting +2d6 damage, the fourth +3d6 damage and so on to a maximum of +5d6 on all subsequent attacks.

combine this with the fact that thrashing dragon encourages TWF and a slayer that takes martial study a couple times can throw out aprox a billion d6 in one round

sure doing damage isn't everything but wizards can't hack the game if they're too busy being dead because they got ganked in a single round, and outside of the mobility/divinitation stuff the main things that make full casters stupid is that save or lose tends to kill things way faster than normie fighters can (which stuff like this can negate because you get to do it unlimited amounts of times)

>>46983080
Probably, but Sneak Attack is absolutely garbage. It's a decent toy to tack on to your actual damage, which will be much more reliable and not as likely to be prevented by fucking trees casting a shadow over your target.

>>46983119
>prevented by fucking trees casting a shadow over your target.
Excuse me?

>>46983145
Dim light provides concealment, which prevents sneak attack.

It is, quite literally, the easiest mechanic to shut down in all of PF. You have to expend feats and/or have constant darkvision to avoid this. Sneak Attack is a trap option.

>Join a new game with a new group
>I'm the odd one out, they're all friends
>Everything's going pretty good so far, GM really knows his shit, other PCs are cool
>Get into combat
>It's a giant with a tree as a weapon and 7 Hobgoblins
>As the Warder I take point, ready to lock the giant down for the whole fight
>Giant hits me
>Decide not to counter to see what kind of damage he'll do, check if the GM pulls his punches or not
>Anon, roll a Fort save
>Wat okay
>Fuck it up with an 11
>GM rolls some dice
>The giant smashes the literal whole tree into me from the side and I go flying with half my health gone
>Literally I get smashed 5 squares to the side and impact a hobgoblin, tripping him
>Now make a Reflex save, anon
>What the fuck is going on
>Roll 23
>Great! You can make an attack roll against the hobgoblin you just impacted as if it was a charge attack, or you can move 2 squares without provoking attacks in any direction except towards the giant
>UHHHHHH, choose to hit the hobgoblin, completely pierce him with my spear
>Cleric runs up to me and patches me up with a cure moderate
>Barbarian charges the giant with whatever Primal Fury maneuver it was that doesn't provoke
>Makes a free Acrobatics check to jump off the tree which just hit me
>Nails it with a nat 20
>Gets a free crit on the giant's head, cutting it off
>The head lands on a hobgoblin and pins him
>The ranger picks 3 hobs off with a full attack
>The other 2 start running away and we let them go
>After another hour of RP we sit down and discuss the session, everyone agrees the combat was too easy and GM promises to ramp it up, explaining that he's still getting the feel for our power level
>We then vote on who was the best at RP and he gets a free hero point
Is this what Heaven is like?
I can't even compare this to my previous campaigns.
Did I... Did I make it?

>>46983179
Dim light is a little more involved than a tree's shadow.

Not, ya know, a lot more involved, but a little.

>>46983179
>Areas of dim light include outside at night with a moon in the sky, bright starlight, and the area between 20 and 40 feet from a torch.

A trees shadow isn't anything close to this. That's literally the stupidest, most autistic rules lawyer bullshit I've ever heard.

>>46983179
One feat, or one headband slot, or play literally any race that has innate darkvision...

>>46983179
unchained rogue can still sneak attack in partial concealment

also, DMs might rule that creatures 'silhouetted' by brighter light conditions behind them would negate concealment from dim conditions they happen to be standing in.

>>46983198
>>46983211
>>46983215
>>46983216
The fact that you need to invest anything at all to even attempt to make Sneak Attack work MOST of the time is bullshit. The Rogue is supposed to live in shadows, why the fuck can't he stab somebody accurately when it's dark out?

If you can pick it up for free, Sneak Attack isn't bad. But building around it is full retard.

>>46983179
I want direct, word of god from the devs proof of this bullshit because I refuse to believe it.

I understand a lot of combat related rules in pathfinder are because the devs are out of shape nerds that can't do it themselves so they think it's impractical or difficult, but I refuse to believe that a bit of shadow from a tree makes it impossible to see someone 20% of the time.

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>>46983186

>>46983179
>>46983252

Hold the fucking phone.
>A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with total concealment.

TOTAL concealment.
Like, literally pitch black darkness or invisible.
Dim light doesn't do shit - you only can't sneak attack if you've got absolutely zero visual cues.

>>46983317
>The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.

It appears the Unchained Rogue is the only one to have that change, which still makes SA a shitty option for literally everyone else.

>>46983308
actual dim light as described by the game is "it's nighttime but there's some light a distance away"

so you can sneak attack people all day just fine, and all night as long as you're targets are near light sources (which they will be)

That's unchained rogue, mind. Original recipe rogue was indeed blocked by any concealment at all, as are all the sneak-attack classes who still use old rogue as their rules reference.

>>46983352
That's because UC rogue was the most recent one put out

There's no reason to assume it doesn't retroactively apply to all the other classes whos SA is directly based on rogue SA unless you're a gigantic asshole (in which case you're going to get SA in real life)

>>46983352
>Blur and cloak of displacement make you immune to sneak attacks from most sources by RAW

Well goddamn.

>>46983385
>There's no reason to assume it doesn't retroactively apply to all the other classes whos SA is directly based on rogue SA unless you're a gigantic asshole (in which case you're going to get SA in real life)

Except for the part where RAW it clearly doesn't until/unless errata comes around to change that.

>>46983385
This is Paizo. You are 100% correct to assume that martials don't get nice things.

>>46983412
>Expecting Paizo to issue common-sense errata
You must be new.

>>46983412
>>46983426
rule 0 bitch

>>46983439
>the class isn't a piece of shit if i change the rules!
i mean, sure, but that's not really what's being debated

>>46983439
We're discussing shit RAW. Your house rules don't fucking matter outside of your house.

If all you have to add is "M-MUH DM SAID SO" then please shut the fuck up, because it's not relevant in any way.

>>46983505
To be somewhat fair, his answer would also be Paizo's answer. Which is also why they won't issue an errata.

As far as Paizo is concerned, people who give a shit about the rules are scum; fucking the game up for them is a bonus. So no errata for them!

Because Paizo never misses an opportunity to be immature, unprofessional, narrow-minded, and spiteful.

>>46983186

You made it, anon.

You goddamn made it.

Now tell us all about this campaign, the others and your character.

Groups where it's a bunch of friends looking for one more tend to be the best kind of group, I was in your shoes back in November and the friends accepted me as one of their own.

>>46983412
>>46983426
>>46983505
Ninjas are described as a rogue archetype, vivisectionist alchemist sneak attacks "as a rogue of the same level" and slayers (like all hybrid classes) literally get the rogue sneak attack feature (it doesn't stack if you multiclass because you can't multiclass the same class twice, slayer is literally the rogue when it comes to sneak attack)

Meanwhile, unchained classes are literally the class they're replacing. They're described not as a brand new class that does rogue things better, but a redesign of whatever original class. The original rogue doesn't exist anymore, people just write "unchained" so people know what book you're referencing for their abilities. Thats why unchained rogue can use all the good archetypes like the one that lets you cast spells, they're the same class.

unchained rogue can sneak attack anything with less than full concealment -> unchained rogue is considered to be the rogue class in all ways -> previous sneak attack classes are rogues when it comes to their sneak attack ability -> every class can use the unchained rogue sneak attack rules

Prove me wrong, motherfuckers.

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What would be necessary to bump a chained summoner down into tier 3? Dropping standard action summons? Maxing out at Summon Monster VI? Nerfing the eidolon? A little bit of all of these?

>>46983600
If they're literally that class, why do we still have that class? Checkmate, athiests

>>46983669
the only problem with summoners is the summon monster SLA

unchained eidolon is only a problem because most martial builds are completely worthless

>>46983600
Per PF Unchained itself:
>This chapter includes unchained versions of the barbarian, monk, rogue, and summoner, as well as subsystems that alter character advancement. These classes can be used alongside their original counterparts (although individual characters must use one version or the other exclusively).
The unchained classes are not replacements, they're alternatives, and the old ones explicitly still exist.

>>46983600
You seem right to me, but ultimately I think we've moved past "whether or not you should use sneak attack" and into "good fucking god, Paizo is bad at this shit."

Of course, that argument also has the flaw that they inherited the original from 3.5.

But Pathfinder was hyped to hell and back as a fixed 3.5. That it fucking ain't.

>>46983669
Probably the first two. Eidolon's not a very big deal after leaving Rusty Dagger Shanktown.

>>46983579
It's Giantslayer except the GM re-wrote a whole bunch of it.
The party is a group of three mercs-for-hire and a cleric that joined us from the first town we went to and protected from an orc invasion.
We've got me as a ZS Warder spearman, a primal disciple Barb greatsword rip n tear guy, party leader ranger with a 3pp archetype i don't remember the name of, and normal NG cleric.
It's being played using Tabletop Simulator and Discord for voice chat.
The GM has background music going at all times and switches it frequently to fit the mood/area/events taking place.
It's so, so good.

>>46982823
As a person who loves gish classes twilight armor is an excellent advantage to have for the melee caster concept I always try to fulfill

>>46983700
the book also says

>This section presents four new takes on existing classes, which have been redesigned to improve their ease of use and power relative to other classes.

The fact that they CAN be used alongside the old classes is just a clause for them to cover their ass for people that don't have the new book/for summoner players that don't want to be nerfed.

The intent is pretty clear that they're replacements, especially since unchained classes can use chained archetypes but the reverse isn't true.

I mean, unchained monk and rogue probably have more differences than wizard and sorcerer do, yet you can't take archetypes between the two arcane full casters like you can between chain/unchained version of a class.

Why can't grappling be good, /pfg/?

I wanted to make a grappler, but it seems PF is dead-set on it being a horrible decision. Garrote is a joke. Dan Bong takes GM fiat to work. I think coup de grace with Throat Slicer at 7 or Kraken Throttle interpreted RAW are the only two decent ways to do it.

>>46983700
>>46983753
Oh, furthermore

>These classes can be used alongside their original counterparts (although individual characters must use one version or the other exclusively).

The fact that they must use one or the other is even more proof that they're replacements. You can't multiclass the same class. The fact that you have to pick chain or unchained version proves their the same class for the same reason that different bloodline sorcerers are the same class.

It's just to cover their ass for people that don't have the new book or for some insane reason don't like the changes. They're the same class.

>>46983773
look up white haired witch

1 level dip gets you a secondary natural attack (keep in mind that if you only have one natural attack it automatically becomes a primary) that automatically grabs people it hits and uses intelligence instead of strength

The especially cool part is that YOU aren't in the grapple status yourself, just the other person. So you can pin them or do whatever shit you want without making yourself a target

you can take a couple more levels to give it more perks like reach and damage per round but witch is a low BAB class so that might scale badly against higher level enemies

>>46983737
I'm envious, but I don't begrudge you. It's good to hear that somewhere, there is the perfect game.

>>46983773
I guess the concepts are just beyond your grasp

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>>46983838

>>46981936
It's better for Androids, as well as archers who don't want to be Urban Barbarians (gunners can just be a normal Savage Technologist). Otherwise, it's mostly a downgrade, since two-handing weapons would no longer give you even more damage.

>>46983816
I'll change my question. Why can't martials have nice things, /pfg/?

What would you think of a PC race with the Swallow Whole ability?

>>46983750
See if you can use DMG2 or Races of the Wild. DMG2 has "item templates" including feycraft and githcraft that reduce ASF, and RotW has thistledown padding, which reduces ASF in exchange for higher ACP.

With one of those, a mithral chain shirt has 0% ASF even without magic. That saves you a lot of money, particularly in the long run thanks to the quadratic costs of enhancements.

(With all of those and also twilight, you can end up with 0% ASF full-plate.)

But know that mage armor was always better. Any special armor properties can get stuck on your mithral light shield (which has 0% ASF and 0 ACP, so it costs you literally nothing but a little gold to use). You're using this armor pretty much just for thematics.

>>46983871
because mythologically all the strong martial characters were fucking mutants or inherantly magical beings except for dudes like conan who mainly fought regular chump soliders and the odd low level wizard/monster in 1v1 combat

>>46983871
Dipping into a caster doesn't make you not a martial, anon.

Be a fiendbound marauder instead.

Or use DSP's new fucking fake grappling that they wrote up to avoid having to actually give fans what they want.

>>46977902
Gonna ask again if anyone has any thoughts on the Research Facility and Facility Expansions.

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>>46983838
I'm actually kinda hype for Fool's Errand. The climb bit seems like a way to cover your bases of you aren't a full BABBY. The reposition has great potential. Grasping more than one opponent is pretty powerful as well. You can't wrestle them to the ground, but it's a good way to be able to engage multiple enemies without screwing yourself with the grappled condition. Too bad my GM will never use POW~

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>>46983897

>>46983600
Unchained is also a book of OPTIONAL rules and changes.

>>46983981
There's a strike to wrestle them to the ground too, isn't there? Works well enough for me.

>>46983981
I hear you, man. The concept of an Ex discipline that does super awesome shit like jump on air, tell magic to fuck itself, and generally just fucks shit up is SUPER cool.

I can't wait for Forrest to get it into a playtest-ready state.

>>46983753
>>46983776
Good job moving goalposts. By your logic, ninja and samurai are 'replacements' for rogue and cavalier because they can use the old class' archetypes. You claimed the old classes didn't exist anymore, you were flat fucking wrong.

Which disciplines are the best choices for Discipline Focus? I know Steel Serpent probably has lots of saving throws that would gladly benefit from a +2 to the DC, but what else?

>>46984069
>>46983981
The tell magic to fuck off maneuver (the 7th level one) is far more powerful than a PC should ever have. A personalized anti-magic fields that doesn't effect your own offense is essentially a win button vs literally every class.

Casters, Manifesters, & Initiators that focus on Su disciplines just cry.

>>46984316
Sleeping Goddess and Steel Serpent are big ones. Any discipline that focuses on DCs is a good one.

Cursed Razor and Shattered Mirror would also be up there.

>>46984322
>implying it'll go live the way it is right now
>implying that a 7th hour maneuver (level 13+) shouldn't be damn fucking strong
You know what spellcasters can do at that level? The answer is that it's easier to say what they CAN'T do.

>>46984368
>implying that a 7th hour maneuver (level 13+) shouldn't be damn fucking strong

It's far more powerful than what a 9th level spell can be. The closest 9th level spell is spellbane and it makes you immune to 4 spells you specify in advance. This is literally just a win button against any target who uses anything magical.

>You know what spellcasters can do at that level?
Literally nothing to this character except try and kill him with summons. Summons whose supernatural abilities don't work on him.

>implying it'll go live the way it is right now
If it goes lives as it is now that's a disgusting showing from DSP.

If a caster, manifester, or initiator with Su disciplines meets someone with this maneuver that can recover it at a reasonable pace (Warlords, Zealots, Warders) then the only course of action they have is to try and run.

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>>46984322
I swear, you mention any aspect of Fool's Errand and SOMEONE jumps straight to that one counter. It isn't even in playtest.

I bet you're the same person who's been whining in the past four threads.

This isn't that different from vanilla except it doesn't affect you. Which isn't a big deal considering anyone who's invested hard enough to get that counter is gonna be a pretty shit caster. It's pretty much just so they can use SU maneuvers and have their magic items working. Otherwise, it's a worse version of the Spellbreaker Mythic Weapon

>>46984421

I dunno, given how many hard-counters there are to most combat things I do feel like PF needs to have some hard counters to magic.

Not something magic can get around if it does this or that, just some stuff that gives a gigantic middle finger to Mr. "I have a spell for everything" every once in a while.

>>46984469
>This isn't that different from vanilla except it doesn't affect you. Which isn't a big deal considering anyone who's invested hard enough to get that counter is gonna be a pretty shit caster.
It's any supernatural ability. That include supernatural maneuvers. Which is 80% of maneuvers. So those don't effect you either.

Really though. Imagine if you had a caster who could not be effected by spells in any way but could still use spells. Imagine the uproar.

>Otherwise, it's a worse version of the Spellbreaker Mythic Weapon
That both requires you to make AoOs, the opponent to not be mythic (unless you want to spend double mythic power), and spend mythic power.

This is far better than that.

>>46984504
>Not something magic can get around if it does this or that, just some stuff that gives a gigantic middle finger to Mr. "I have a spell for everything" every once in a while.
This is a "I have one repeatable ability that solved everything you do". That's not an apt way to create an ability. Class features should be made to spite other classes.

As well to be prepared for everything a wizard must have everything prepared, numerous spells. Thus he must instead have free slots and only general spells prepared, with specific situational spells prepared during the day. This is better than that.

Also a wizard doesn't have one spell that completely counters all casters, manifesters, creatures that rely on Su, and initiators focused on Su. If they do then please link it.

>>46984556
I suggest you try reading. What they said is that the line about you not being affected is only there so that your gear doesn't turn off. You're heavily invested in a pure Ex discipline. Odds are your best maneuvers are Ex. That is the point that was being made.

>>46984604
It's only repeatable if you choose specific classes, and then proceed to do nothing except stand around and use the same ability, over and over again. Which means no other counters, no protection against the claws and fangs and other attacks of whatever gets summoned or sent your way.

>>46984556
I have no idea as to what you're talking about with attacks of opportunity. It only costs one mythic to activate regardless of source.

Are you sure you're not reading an out of date copy?

Yes, imagine a caster immune to martials. It may take being incorporeal and a disjunction, lasting for minutes without affecting your action economy. The horror.

>>46984469
He most assuredly is. He literally cannot handle that somebody got a nice toy, and is acting as if how Paizo balances things (claiming that it being "better than a 9th level spell" is a valid argument when 9th level spells tend to do shit that are SIGNIFICANTLY more important than just avoiding magic) is somehow a good metric.

>>46984504
I imagine Assert Existence will receive a slight toning down (such as limiting the kinds of things it can be used against or whatever) before it heads to playtesting. I still think that a 7th level counter that lets you go NO, YOU MOVE is pretty fanastic.

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>>46984421
>>46984368
>>46984322

On a not-Assert Existence note, what do you guys think is the best way to abuse Sky-Shattering Throw?

I figure having a Poppy Ult has to be really hilarious and useful.

>>46984644
>That is the point that was being made.
Any initiator should have 2-3 disciplines. Also this does not change the fact that you are still not effected by other's Su abilities.

>>46984648
> Which means no other counters, no protection against the claws and fangs and other attacks of whatever gets summoned or sent your way.
One of three PoW classes can easily use it every round, that's half of them. In addition if you answer is "Being immune to magic is fine because summons can still attack you" then I think you need to reexamine the system.

>>46984651
Did you not read the feat you suggested?

>http://www.d20pfsrd.com/mythic/mythic-feats/spellbreaker-mythic

>Benefit: Any non-mythic creature you threaten provokes an attack of opportunity from you whenever it uses a spell or spell-like ability, even when casting defensively or casting a quickened spell.

>If a non-mythic creature within 30 feet of you uses a spell or spell-like ability, you can expend one use of mythic power to make a ranged attack against that creature as an attack of opportunity (even if the creature wouldn't normally provoke attacks of opportunity). You must have a ranged weapon in hand or have a free hand and the non-mythic Quick Draw feat to use this ability. You can use this ability against a mythic creature by expending two uses of mythic power.
> You can use this ability against a mythic creature by expending two uses of mythic power.
> you can expend one use of mythic power to make a ranged attack against that creature as an attack of opportunity
Also it requires them to be within 30ft of you.

>Yes, imagine a caster immune to martials. It may take being incorporeal and a disjunction, lasting for minutes without affecting your action economy. The horror.
Something being broken does not justify making another broken ability. How does no one get this? Besides to this character being incorporeal is not a danger. Also disjunction does not work on him.

>>46984129
ninja and samurai are archetypes

>>46978625
Bump?

>>46984666
>(claiming that it being "better than a 9th level spell" is a valid argument when 9th level spells tend to do shit that are SIGNIFICANTLY more important than just avoiding magic)
Ok, please tell me what 9th level spell does something more important than a personalized anti-magic field. Please. Wish is not an apt answer, it cost 25k a pop and non-prescribed wishes are meant to fuck you over

>>46984724
Not according to paizo.

>>46984741
Aroden's Spellbane (amf) + your own AMF. Now you've got a personalized AMF.

I think that they need to nerf the counter before playtesting, but still.

>>46984723
I was talking about the mythic item Spellbreaker.

>>46984709
Besides throwing them into a bottomless pit or against a prismatic wall?

If underground, throw them at the ceiling of the cavern above a wall of sound. The hit against the ceiling would dislodge rocks, and all the debris and target would hit the wall of sound.

>>46984765

>The Anti-Magic Field! The be-all, end-all, absolute 100% counter to anything magical forever!
>...Except this other spell!

You had ONE JOB.

>>46984765
>Aroden's Spellbane (amf) + your own AMF.
That turns off your cast of antimagic field. It doesn't effect you or others because Aroden's Spellbane is basically anti-magic field but only for some spells. So your AMF if you chose it then cast it simply doesn't work because it's entirely in Spellbane's space.

>>46984322
Not every class, but okay. There are also spells that could be used to indirectly prevent action from the enemy, which means it isn't a hard counter to spellcasters or manifesters. Beatsticks won't be overly affected. There are actually disciplines that aren't supernatural. You're exaggerating. There are also spells that can make casters immune to martials, so saying it's inbalanced is not true. It's also not even in playtest, so changes are very likely. Calm down.

>>46984819
>You had ONE JOB.
Spellbane is just a more powerful version of AMF. Even then Spellbane just shuts the AMF off, it doesn't create a personal field.

>>46984803
>I was talking about the mythic item Spellbreaker.

I still don't know what you're talking about, it just makes an AMF field.
>Only one end of this iron-shod +3 quarterstaff has an enhancement bonus. The enhanced end acts as a bane weapon against any creature with the ability to cast spells or use spell-like abilities. As a standard action, the wielder can strike the unenhanced end against the ground while expending one use of mythic power to produce an antimagic field centered on the staff. This effect has a duration of 2 hours. Anyone striking the staff against the ground a second time dismisses the effect.

>The antimagic field remains in effect if the staff is dropped or disarmed. The staff retains its enhancement bonus and extra damage against spellcasters inside any antimagic field.

>>46984753
Yes according to paizo, I can't find it but there's a direct statement that alternate classes are essentially just in-depth archetypes where they wrote out a full progression table.

This is why you can't multiclass ninja/rogue or samurai/caviler. Just like you can't multiclass unchained/chained rogue. Just like you can't multiclass two sorcerer bloodlines or two wizard specializations.

They're all the same class, you can't multiclass the same class.

>>46984885
Yeah, it makes an aoe denial of magic and martials still get their toys in there.

How do you not see the comparison?

>>46984859
>There are also spells that could be used to indirectly prevent action from the enemy, which means it isn't a hard counter to spellcasters or manifesters.
Those require a save nearly 100% of the time. There is no high level saveless pure disable besides Wish-Geas.

>There are actually disciplines that aren't supernatural.
Most disciplines are Su as of PoW:E. As well many class features of initiators (particularly PoW:E are Su).

>There are also spells that can make casters immune to martials, so saying it's inbalanced is not true
Something else being broken does not make this not broken. The spells people cite as making one immune to martials end up either being emergency force shield or a high save spell. Emergency Force Shield blocks LoE and again we go back to requiring saving throws.

This such as Windwall have counters.

This maneuver has no counters.

>>46984930
>Yeah, it makes an aoe denial of magic and martials still get their toys in there.
I don't think you understand. It still turns off all their other gear. Only the staff keeps working inside the AMF.

this entire argument is retarded

wizards can literally do anything, they can get past anti magic fields if they aren't lazy

just summon tons of shit, just trap them behind real walls or other barriers you happened to make with magic. turn yourself and your companions into giant monsters and step on him

there are so many ways to use magic to effect people without giving them will save/spell resistance checks, an anti magic field that has a range of personal doesn't mean shit especially since if worse comes to worse you can just teleport away and come back with a buddy that murders him in one round because you gave him tons of magical assistance to go with his POW manouvers

dont worry wizfags, you're still the best class. the mean jocks aren't gonna bully you

Well apparently I've been disappeared from the Paizo forums for posting a critical review of a 3PP. Keep it classy, Paizo.

>>46984956
Yeah, but it's an aoe, and you don't really need the other stuff when you can deny enemies their enhancement bonuses.

This conversation feels like hitting my head against a brick wall.

>>46984962
Ok, how does the wizard actually win? With summons? Are you saying that an initiator can't kill summons? If the wizard has companions it's not an apt comparison because the initiator with this counter should as well. Being behind real walls isn't an apt description because that means the initiator has forced the caster to flee, with by Pathfinder rules is a won encounter.

>>46984965

They get pretty heavy-handed sometimes, although mostly it seems to be the thing of carpet-bombing discussions that get too heated.

Granted, the Paizo forums have had things like a heated discussion about if the Slayer class is grotesquely overpowered, so...

>>46984962
>you're still the best class.
>literally a worse arcanist

>>46984989
Then it's not nearly as strong as the counter? The counter lets you keep all your items and use your own Su abilities. The staff makes you spend a mythic rank and only keeps the staff on.

How are you saying they're the same power?

>>46984962

Wait are we talking about cheese-builds specifically made to fuck an initiator's face, or your run-of-the-mill Wizard you can totally transplant out of your friend's Jade Regent campaign?

>>46985004
Jesus Christ, I think you're legitimately retarded.

> It's pretty much just so they can use SU maneuvers and have their magic items working. Otherwise, it's a worse version of the Spellbreaker Mythic Weapon
>They can use SU maneuvers and have their magic items working
>Otherwise it's...the Spellbreaker Mythic Weapon
>Otherwise
>Otherwise
>Weapon, not feat
>Otherwise

>>46984997
Only on even levels

>>46985040
>Otherwise, it's a worse version of the Spellbreaker Mythic Weapon
I'm asking how it's a worse version. In what way is it a worse version?

>>46984556
>Really though. Imagine if you had a caster who could not be effected by spells in any way but could still use spells. Imagine the uproar.
There literally already a spell for that.
https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/magic/all-spells/s/aroden-s-spellbane

>>46984990
If you box an enemy in with, say, iron wall, then drop shit on them, or bury them via magic, have you not bested them with magic? Does a personal antimagic field prevent you from doing this?

>>46984990
One of these class can spend a standard action to escape any fight
The other escapes by dying

If even the martial somehow makes the caster run away, a 'won encounter' in a comparison is when one is dead. The caster can leave, reprepare spells, learn new spells from spellbooks and come back. If that doesn't work, he can keep teleporting out until it does.

One of these things has to run after them hundreds of miles away
The other has any point on earth is as far as a wave of the hands
Also invisibility and flying dicks a bunch of martials. Hell, even burst builds get dicked by fucking mirror image.

>>46985082
You specify 4 spells when you cast.

I forgot that 4 spells in advance = all spells, supernatural abilities and powers at any time.

>>46985064
>Yeah, but it's an aoe
An aoe is just better than a non-aoe.

>>46984990
Imprisoning someone isnt victory to you?

As for summons you can only do one counter per round so you digpile the save or lose and he cant negate them all

>>46985096
>Cast it, gain immunity to antimagic field
>cast antimagic field

>>46984965
Screenshot?

File: 1401283526298.jpg (88KB, 450x254px) Image search: [Google]

88KB, 450x254px

>>46984990

Summoning was a mistake for casters. It was a goddamn terrible mistake that has ruined campaigns and turned wizards into the unbearable cheese they are today.

If you ask me, summoning should've been something you had to specialize in, at the cost of other schools. You could call it, like, a summoner or something.

>>46985118
That doesn't really accomplish anything; it's a 10-foot radius that's immune, not you. So either the fields overlap perfectly, and you've just got a normal antimagic field, or they don't, and you've got part of an antimagic field alongside an anti-five-specific-spells field.

>>46985089
For burying with magic the only spell I can think of is Entomb, which doesn't work on this individual. For drop things on them while they're inside an iron wall? That does max 20d6 damage for the largest things.

How are you making these things you are dropping? I'm guessing major creation.

The problem there is movement and teleportation maneuvers exist in 4 separate disciplines. As well his own magic items, one of which can be teleportation. is still there.

As well if there is not a lid on it (which is how I assume how you're dropping it). He can merely climb or fly out, there are multiple stances that do this.

Those are easy answers that the initiator can still do.

>>46985094
>Also invisibility and flying dicks a bunch of martials. Hell, even burst builds get dicked by fucking mirror image.
Except an initiator has ways to counter all of these.

>One of these things has to run after them hundreds of miles away
>The other has any point on earth is as far as a wave of the hands
This is one of the few things that will actually work for the caster, and that is fleeing.

>If that doesn't work, he can keep teleporting out until it does.
Literally can never work, the initiator is immune to spells.

How does the caster/manifester/other initiator actually win the fight?


Honestly these discussion always devolve to wizards. How would a 6th level caster ever deal with this? They would simply be done against someone with this ability. I started out with tallking about how it counters everything.


As a magus how do you fight someone with this counter?

>>46985196
>As a magus how do you fight someone with this counter?

You wait for the writer of it to change it.

How is this even an argument? Both sides are wasting their breath.

>>46985153

I feel like the summoning and polymorph schools need to have a huge axe taken to them. Maybe not excise them entirely, but certainly make them a lot less safe and easy to use.

I'd mind minionmancy a lot less if it had a fairly good chance of turning into another encounter the party had to fight if the summoner/necromancer/golem-maker fucked ANYTHING up.

Pathfinder magic is just too damn easy, consistent, and safe most of the time to feel like real magic to me.

File: 1hbGLoZ.jpg (293KB, 928x800px) Image search: [Google]

293KB, 928x800px

>tfw Heaven Unleashed is actually good
>It contains great insight into both Heaven and how Lawful Good is best alignment, with actual examples! Like LG Court Houses and LG Heroics!
>Contains old women, male characters and actually interesting characters rather than just plucky waifu-bait being spunky (In every way possible)
>Straight up states that LG characters can work with non-good non-lawful types and that some flexibility is allowed, the characters represented act like actual people! Even when they're angels!
Finally! Someone wrestled the controls from James 'Wis 3. CG Only. FINAL DERPSTINATION' Jacobs.

Thank fucking Christ. Here's hoping we see more nice things that aren't just for shit heels in the future.

>>46985118
That's not how it works. it just turns off the AMF.

Fucking seriously guys, do you not know how the spells work?

>>46985109
I would choose one that keeps all my items on and allows me to use Su abilities over one that extends the anti-magic field to a 10 foot radius. If the only benefit is a 10ft radius then I don't see how it is better. The 10ft radius is far more situational than the benefits of the counter.

As well it is around the staff, meaning it can be disarmed. Plus others can turn it off. Plus it costs power.

If your one way it is worse is that it is not a 10ft radius then fine. I concede that by your definition it is worse.

>>46985215
Yeah, they already said they're changing it.

Currently we're in an angry circle jerk

>>46985113
>Imprisoning someone isnt victory to you?
How is the initiator imprisoned? Teleportation is something that exists for initiators. As well what spell are you using to trap the initiator? Wall of iron makes a wall, not a box.

>>46985215
Because they're probably not gonna do it right.

/pfg/, how would you fix this counter? Without removing it.

I think that I would start by making it affect all your stuff too. I'm not sure if that's where I'd finish it, but it'd make it a lot worse in combats.

Might make it apply until the end of your next turn, instead of the start, so there would always be a downside to using it during your own turn.

>>46985196
>Except an initiator has ways to counter all of these.
Not at the same time
Also let's not forget that the wizard can cast fly then have a summon on stand by that could literally throw him 400 some odd feet in the air.

>>46985196
Your argument was about one counter. If the initiator teleports or flies, they did not recover that counter. Boom. Tadah. You win. Now, quicken a SoL, cast another for good measure, and prepare your arcanobong for a good, long toke. Initiators don't have endless action economy. Either they're trapped forever while they keep up the counter, or they're fucked.

>>46985215
If it has been acknowledged by the writers are too powerful then why are people arguing it's balanced?

>>46985239
I really liked it. I would've enjoyed different examples, though I loved Grandma Crow. They seemed to hint at shady stuff going on there, though.

Can't wait for the pdf to come out here.