/wodg/, /cofd/

>>46925093
>Patiently waiting for Mage 2e and the Monday Meeting Notes edition

That was the last thread.

>>46925093
>Patiently waiting for Mage 2e
So question, since I'm quite a ways behind. Are there any links to major mechanical changes between 1e and 2e. Better yet, are there character creation rules out there?

>>46925134
There's been several major mechanical changes. Spellcasting works completely differently, as does the effects of Paradox. I don't know if a full suite of chargen rules has been leaked yet but go look up Dave's blog posts and you'll see the revealed material so far.

>>46925134

Yes, there are many. There isn't any totally complete character creation rules, but you can read the spoilers and get a good look at what the game's going to look like.

Here, it's all in this place: http://theonyxpath.com/category/worlds/chroniclesofdarkness/magetheawakening/

Spoilers going back at least three years there.

>>46925134
http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/mage-the-awakening/437565-second-edition-development-blogs
Has links to all the open dev blogs, and thus pretty much everything we know.

>>46925117

Then I guess we're IMpatiently waiting for Mage 2e. Can we finally agree that Paradox approval times are at least three weeks in general? I think we've finally got enough projects to get out some kind of average.

>>46925093

I was on Wanton Wicked for like five minutes several years ago, then school happened and I never really went back. It seemed all right.

>>46925186
>>46925189
>>46925194
Appreciate it, anons. Polite sage. does that even do anything anymore?

>>46925234
It stops the post from bumping the thread. Like always.

>>46925234

I honestly have no idea. I haven't saged in what feels like years.

>>46925130
>What is the best Hunter Compact and why is it Division Six?

I've never understood the hype some people have for this Compact. Yeah, it mentions the technocracy and consensual reality. So what? There's really nothing interest there other than the fact it has call-backs to Ascension. They could have summarized everything about them in a sentence and put in something cool instead. In fact, if they really wanted to go that route why not something focusing on technomagick? Bump it up to Conspiracy (dump the Knights of St. George, they never really worked anyway) and you can hit the sore spot people have with the Technocracy's absence from Awakening and had something cool and sorta cyberpunky before Demon came in and monopolized it.

>>46925230
I've played on pretty much every site since the Mods and it's the same community in every one of them. The same drama, the same flaky STs that keep getting positions, etc. If you're bored or just addicted to that kind of RP, go for it, but once you've been burnt once by the community STOP going back because it NEVER gets better.

>>46925134
>Are there any links to major mechanical changes between 1e and 2e.
Oh goodness yes.
>Better yet, are there character creation rules out there?
This less so. We know Mages get 10 Merit dots, 6 Arcanum dots (ostensibly some of which need to be Ruling), a free Resistance Attribute dot (you pick which stat it goes in, this time around), and according to Dark Eras, standard Mages get 1 free dot in Occult.

They've also added some stuff to the Mage template.

>>46925294

Well that's a bummer to learn. I mean, I don't have a need to go back since I have a great CofD group, but I always did like the idea of playing a journalist in a MUSH-type game.

>>46925275

I like them because they're a goofy call back to Ascension, but still dangerous enough to wreck a Mage's day if they catch them off guard. They're never going to be an integral part of the game, but I don't need them to be.

Has anyone done something different for the monsters in their Hunter games than just porting over the other splats directly? Like, parasitic vampires a la The Strain? In my game I made all werewolves just wolf-spirit claimed humans, usually ones who're shamans or someone they've cursed.

>>46925275
Knights of Saint George are awesome, though. They're one of the more interesting Conspiracies, narratively.
Their mechanics are kind of not good, though. Especially the cost structure.

>>46925428
I never port things over directly, though I'll use the mechanics of other splats (Disciplines in particular make for good Dread Powers). My one big thing was a Slasher who was based on Kuchisake-Onna, though I didn't use the Slasher template, either.

Chronicles of fagness

>>46925490
Now it's a thread!

>>46925275
I like them because they're poor man's cowboy Delta Green: constantly understaffed, badly equipped and with dubious legitimacy. Technomagik would undermine that feel. I'm not a fan of either version of Mage, but I'll admit that I prefer the morally ambiguous Technocracy over the ridiculously evil Exarchs.
I agree that the Knights of St. George are pretty terrible. Their endowment simply doesn't work, it's way too focused on anti-magic to be useful against anyone else. The Cainites have the same problem, but at least they're kind of cool.
I really hope the new Hunter book will improve all compacts and conspiracies.

>>46925486
>Knights of Saint George are awesome, though. They're one of the more interesting Conspiracies, narratively.
I completely disagree. They're basically a cult who're wink-nod servants of the abyss when they could put a lot more distance between them and Mage's cosmology. The idea of being divinely inspired is neat, having weird angels as patrons is neat, but they don't stress that so much as take the opportunity to tease more about how they're connected to Mage. I know it's Witch Finders, but it just irks me. There was potential there, wasted.

Also, their mechanics are some of the worst of any nWoD faction ever conceived.

>>46925535
>poor man's cowboy Delta Green
They could have done this in so many different, better ways than Division Six. Like, this could have been a corebook compact, but instead it's a forgettable entry in their collection of underwhelming splatbook compacts (I'm looking at you Talbot Group, Night Watch, Maiden's Blood and Utopia Now).

>>46925662

Honestly, now that there's no more Tier system, there's pretty much no reason to keep any of the Compacts. I figure 2e is mostly going to focus on all the Conspiracies.

>>46925599
>>46925535
This is Hunter, not Mage. There are wink-nods and their powers are anti-mage, but they also work on everything else. I don't remember anything about how they ONLY work on mages, like with the Cainites.

I also love the connections to Mage. Especially in Hunter, where implanting an Abyssal entity in your own body makes you harder to target with Vampiric powers. The Conspiracy IS one that's focused on a particular supernatural, but they're not completely useless when dealing with other things.

The thing I like most about them, though, is their motivation. They don't hunt people because they think those people are evil, they do it because a greater evil will destroy the world if they don't appease it. I like that. I like evil cultists that aren't all jumping at a chance to give Cthulhu presents. I like that they're a reluctant cult to cosmic horrors.

>>46925662
I also like Maiden's Blood Sisterhood and Utopia Now. I think Utopia Now are one of those groups that's firmly in the "neat for worldbuilding, bad for play" groups, but I just love the concept.

>>46925792
The idea for a Utopia Now compact is good, but the execution and that one's particular fluff are garbo.

>>46925792
I just don't find that compelling or as interesting as you're making it seem from the actual text. Also, if I wanted reluctant cultists I'd just refluff TFV to the group from "Cabin In the Woods."

>>46925863

Were they really all that reluctant in Cabin in the Woods? I mean, when you've got a betting pool going about what monster the sacrifices will unleash, there's at least some kind of gusto they've got for the event.

>>46925917
They weren't reluctant at all, they were in full "for the greater good" mode. Someone had to be the assholes otherwise the world ended, and they knew it had to be them.

>>46925847
What's your problem with it?
Would have been better if it were a Conspiracy in my opinion.

>>46925863
Iunno, like I said, that's what I like about them. When I read it, I immediately started mentally formulating a story of a doomed relationship where a Dragonslayer falls in love with a lovely caring witch and does his best to meet his "quota" with other victims. He finally can't do it anymore and the walls are cracking, and so he decides to sacrifice himself instead.

>>46925944
I think it stops being "for the greater good" and more "part of the job" when you're placing bets on who lives and who dies.

>>46925662
I know they're not that great as poor man's cowboy Delta Green, but hey, that's what we got. They're still one of the better splatbook compacts.
>>46925792
I'm pretty sure that most Goetic Gospels
specifically target people using Source and Mysteries (aka Mages and witches).
>>46925740
I hope it doesn't. I like quite a few compacts, and I wish to see them expanded.

>>46925971

What Compact line-up would you like to see in a 2e core?

>>46925962
>I think it stops being "for the greater good" and more "part of the job" when you're placing bets on who lives and who dies.

They got complacent, but when shit goes wrong the guys running the show serious the fuck up in an instant. They were so good at what they did that they stopped taking it so seriously, but they always knew why they were doing it; when the avalanche didn't happen tweedle-dee sprinted the full length of the building to fix it.

>>46926013
Division Six, Loyalists, Bear Lodge, the Union, Promethean Brotherhood, Net 0 and Null Mysteris. I'm on the fence with the Long Night. They're a bit too cliche.

>>46926113

I like the idea of the The Long Night, especially with the attempt to do a more multi-faceted look at Evangelism in Compacts and Conspiracies, but they've always been in the shadow of Malleus Malificarum.

>>46925962
They tried to shoehorn in the whole libertarian Free State Project garbage onto it and centered it around one guy with such a generic WASPy name I nearly puked. It should have been a loose network of world-builders who trade DIY recipes for subverted infrastructure. In essence, it should have been more Linux, less Alex Jones. Maybe throw in some /r9k/ 'get us all away from the normies' stuff if you want to add a sinister aspect, but do you really need to spell out how dangerous it is for people to create their own private worlds using technology they only barely understand?

>>46926159

I don't know, I could see the kinds of folks who want Elon Musk to run the world to have their own Compact.

>>46926113
I'd keep Network Zero, Null Mysteriis, Loyalists from the original core. Elevate Heritage House and flesh it out more. Put Hunt Club, Bear Lodge and Promethean Brotherhood in a new section with more antagonist oriented compacts for hunters that are close to or have succumb to being slashers.

I'd keep The Long Night, but go even further with the Tribulationist stuff and add in faith healing, snake handling, and other wack-a-doo aspects of Protestantism. Maybe bump it up to a Conspiracy.

>>46926151
It's been a while since I read Compacts and Conspiracies. I'll be sure to check it out.

>>46925971
It just uses the generic term "witches". There's a sidebar in the actual book (that subnet doesn't have) that goes into how the Conspiracy doesn't JUST target Awakening style Mages. I look at it sort of like the Banality Worm Thaumatechnology Endowment.

>>46926027
I'm not saying they're not capable of being professional. I'm just saying that they're not reluctantly taking human life for the greater good.

>>46926013
>>46926113
I want all of them. But if I had to pick my favourites...
The Union, Network Zero, Long Night, Maiden's Blood Sisterhood, and maybe a revamped Null Mysteriis that's more Fringe than Scully. I things like Utopia Now, Barret Commission, The Talbot Group, and so on should get maybe 100 word blurbs about how they exist, but don't need real wordcount dedicated to them. Habibti Ma should also go in this section, neato as they are.
Ashwood Abbey and Promethean Brotherhood (with the Rite of Hecate) should be in the Antagonists section as an example of what most Hunters tell themselves they aren't. Faithful of Shulpae (and probably Knights of Saint George, since other hunters can count as "witches") should also be in the antagonist section.

I'd also like to see a 2e update of the Gifted merit, or at least much better Endowment creation guidelines than the ones in the 1e core.

>>46926296
>I'm just saying that they're not reluctantly taking human life for the greater good.

They're not going out of their way to kill people though, nor even just accepting collateral damage. They go way out of their way to make sure only and exactly the minimum number of people necessary to put of the apocalypse actually die.

>>46926241
To wit, I'd also scrap the following compacts and either redo them, fold them in with others, or just eliminate them entirely; Ashwood Abbey I'd like to have in the core, but have it slowly being overtaken by the Hunt Club, make its actual 'members' be just old money hedonists with all the young 1%ers being lured in by the hot new drug. Combine Talbot Group and Halbiti Ma into a support group focused compact. Combine Night Watch and the Union. Make the Barrett Commission a faction within Cherion, make Maiden's Blood a faction within Null Mysteriis, and eliminate all the rest. Espcially the exoticism trash that was Ahl al-Jabal.

>>46926159
But all of that is why it's great. I think the Libertarian obsession with Seasteading is great. Doomed to be like Rapture, but that's why it's great. It's not even any more sinister than Rand Paul already is.

>>46926241
I feel like I'm one of the few people who hates the Null Mysteriis and Loyalists. Heritage House is a neat concept, but I don't really think it needs to be fleshed out.

What COULD be fleshed out is the Demonblooded PMC. Or Daeva Corp.

>>46926353
>Demonblooded PMC
They're hoping for a time when demand for their services will skyrocket...like the good ol' days after 9/11!
Are we talking Descent Demonblooded, Inferno Demonblooded or a mix?

>>46926353
Daeva Corp should have had more wordcount in the Demon Storyteller's Guide. It's really a shame. Also, yeah, that PMC and let's not forget about the experimental weapon makers Ganaducci Arms.

>>46926353
>hates Null Mysteriis and Loyalists.
Why? I mean, I'd think combining the desire for scientific discovery with a world that refuses to obey the laws of nature is great fodder for horror fiction. That which should not be, but then somehow you start understanding how to operate within the insane otherworldly principles and suddenly you're Herbert West.

And my only complaint about the Loyalists is they had to tie it to the Nazi stuff. I'd rather just have Ripper Giles and a group of people who recruit from those who tamper with the supernatural and fuck up, and are compelled to atone through service.

>>46926013
Just remove Ashwood and replace them with another generalist compact.

The core Hunter book shouldn't dip too much into specialist groups who particularly like to hunt a certain monster.

>>46926397
Considering he mentioned Daeva Corp(which is actually Deva Corp in the books), probably Descent.

I wasn't aware there was a Demon-Blooded PMC, though. Guessing that's in Heirs to Hell?

>>46926648
Found 'em
Hell's Fourth Legion, Heirs to Hell, page 45
There's also Project 4X, on page 46, which feels like a Demon-Blooded branch of VASCU if you have to integrate it into the greater cosmology.

>>46925093
>Have you ever played on an online MUSH or moderated chat? If so, what were your experiences?
Fucking horrible. Probably the only bad thing that hasn't happened to my characters is they haven't been raped, but I've talked with someone else whose did. I've also dealt with shitty cliquishness that schemes OOC to make people hate the game and get people banned for "cheating" over trivial bullshit.

>>46926397
Descent. It's from that book that was being argued about last thread. There's a section about groups of Demonblooded, and one example blurb was of a PMC that I'm pretty sure was a reference to Outer Heaven.

>>46926516
My problem isn't the concepts, it's the execution. NM seem too skeptical. Too "that isn't possible" as opposed to "HOW is that possible?"
Of course, skimming over it, that's more from their quotes than the write up. I want a group that's more Fringe than Scully, and accepts that the supernatural is real and works, so the question is how and why.

The Loyalists on the other hand are like you said, way too wrapped up in the whole Nazi guilt thing, and would be better if it was pre-Buffy Giles hitting the library to research how to banish an ancient Celtic God.

>>46926648
>which is actually Deva Corp in the books
My bad.

>>46926726
Care to post or screenshot it? I don't want to download the book.

>>46926621
How are the Abbey specialists?

>>46926768
The Abbey aren't specialists. They should be removed because they are terrible.

I forgot to quote the other posts that were asking for groups like Deva, Bear Lodge, or Division Six, which are specialists.

My bad.

This just in, Aspel is an annoying, nu-male shitposter who the threads would be far better without. The degree to which he stokes the fires of shitposting about the various minor bits of tumblr in the books is fucking abhorrent.

>>46926870
We seem to have been managing to avoid that this thread so far.

>>46926931
True, but I think it's only a matter of time.
But getting back on topic, anyone got any good stories from their hunter games?

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>>46926768
Sure thing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8h2qjg6KfaM
I found a Thing, i think it might be a Changeling related thing, but I'm not sure.

>>46926870

>warns about shitposting via shitposting

It's a two way street. You've gotta take your political buzzwords out as well.

>>46927041

Ensorcelled family, maybe? Is that even still a thing in Changeling 2e, by the way?

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>>46926870
>>46926959
You can't just stoke the fires of shitposting and then go "back on topic". You're the one who took us off topic.

>>46926991
Danke. I think the name is dumb, and honestly the write up isn't as cool as I always remember, but it really gives me great MGS ideas. I want a Metal Gear Solid style PMC made up of DemonBlooded.

Actually, that'd be a pretty awesome version of WoD Revealed. MGS4, but with supernaturals instead of nanomachines.

>>46927220
Should be, yeah.

>>46926788
I can agree with not having "specialist" compacts in the main book, but I also think the eventual splatbooks should have more on what the compact does when confronted with threats they don't usually deal with, like the Bear Lodge fighting vampires.

>>46925093
>Have you ever played on an online MUSH or moderated chat? If so, what were your experiences?

> A bunch of people awkwardly trying to ERP with me, then suddenly losing interest when I don't want to have text cyber sex.
> Players who are really bad at uphodling the Masquerade so to speak. I was playing a Mortal and this Immortal came up and told me EVERYTHING about their faction.
> Cow-tit stripper character with lust aura trying to fingerbang me at a wafflehouse in public.
> Nice but repetitive social scenes.

>>46927268
:^) I totally can though.

>>46927299

>Players who are really bad at uphodling the Masquerade so to speak. I was playing a Mortal and this Immortal came up and told me EVERYTHING about their faction.

I'm trying to imagine what that's gotta be like in-universe.

>And that'll be 10.50. Do you have a Preferred Savings card?
>I'M A BLOOD BATHER
>Would you like to register for one?
>I USE A TUB CARVED FROM THE ROCKS OF OMPHALOS STONES AND BATH IN THE BLOOD OF THE CHANGING BREEDS TO LIVE FOREVER!
>Cash or credit, ma'am?

>>46927294
That would be nice, yeah. Just because you go out of your way to fight vampires, doesn't mean you won't bump into stuff that seems like a vampire at the time.

"We kept following this guy that could sneak real well, turn into animals, and was drinking human blood!"

"Oops, turned out to be a werewolf that was into weird ritualistic stuff."

>>46926350
I don't think the Barrett Commission jives well with Cherion. If they were to get folded into any group it should be VASCU or TFV. I think the bst idea would be to fold to Barret Commission, Union, and Night Watch into a category that represents homegrown Hunter Compacts. Like they aren't all the same group, but they have a similar theme so have them be presented as examples on how to build such a Compact for your area.

>>46926350
What's the point of folding compacts?

Like, what do the players gain?

>>46927299
The worst part is players in positions of power or responsibility, who don't understand that being an officer of the law is about more than putting "Cop" on your character sheet.

I'm now going to unprompted tell one of my shitty WanWic stories:

So my character was this tiny little Moros transgirl who was all about fixing problems and being understanding, and positive change. In one scene, a bunch of people were looking over the rubble of the Mage venue's get together, and a guy who was a Seer, a Banisher, or both started spouting out generic villain dialogue. He'd been encountered before, and he had an aura that made Covert spells Vulgar. In keeping with my character's personality, I decided to try TALKING to him that time. So I was being a friendly person to him the second time around and trying to ask him why he was doing what he was doing. Everyone else pulled out guns. This was like 10pm on a Tuesday in the ruins of an old Chinese noodle place.

The fighting started, and wanting to stop the violence (with an Obrimos even having his Supernal Familiar throw fireballs) I grabbed the rubble and used Verminous Metamorphosis to create a cloud of wasps. The bad guy got away, but at least no one was throwing around fireballs or shooting wildly. But because I was suddenly helping him (even though it was clear IC and OOC that's not what I was doing) the Obrimos Arrow pulls a gun on me and tells me to come with him. Now, IC I have no fucking clue who he is or whether he has authority or not, and I just saw him throwing fireballs and shooting people. And I'm a little five nothing goth chick.

I high tail it to my motorcycle and the whole time I'm getting *shot at* by the Arrow (with a Guardian perfecting his gun). I spend half my actions using Healing Heart. I ran out of mana and passed out after taking about 12L.

>>46927816
>All about fixing problems
>First problem she fixed was her penis

Couldn't help myself

>>46927816
I then spend the next week in IC jail, unable to scene except when one of my jailers is around. I hung out in the OOC lobby making jokes about "Attica! Attica!" or "Fuck the police" and how I was now hardened because I'd been in jail, and apparently this upset people and there were complaints that I was harassing the people who prevented me from playing my character. Because, you know, I wanted to have fun even if I couldn't actually play my character.

For a week, my character gets outed as trans (due to the suggestion that I not use magic; which stopped one of the guys who hits on every female character from hitting on me, despite not knowing that OOC) and has to stay in a cell in the basement of a frat house. I can only talk to other people who have that as their Sanctum, and my lawyer, who's another Adamantine Arrow.

Finally I get to go to trial (which meant being outed to the whole Consilium). There was the suggestion that maybe my mentor should have trained me better (there's some confusion about whether or not there were no muggle witnesses when I used a vulgar spell, though the Arrow had fireballs flying around, his argument was they were from a Familiar, so COMPLETELY OKAY and not breaking the masquerade), but ultimately it was decided that I was innocent, unlawfully imprisoned, and the guy who did it acted recklessly and without cause, and basically that he was shit at being a magecop.

The guy ragequit and deleted his character. He was also one of the previous Mage STs. Because STs on these things are ALWAYS shit.

A few hours later, after a fight with some big thing that attacked the Consilium, I got banned for "cheating" because I didn't list off my active spells every time someone new joined the channel, because a) that's not how Mage's Unseen Sense works, and b) it was listed on my profile that I always had Life spells up.

>>46927995
Hi Rory.

>>46927924
Actually she didn't. She could only make herself look more feminine, not actually genderchange. It was also a prolonged duration spell, since you can't Indefinite without Conditional Duration. It was also dual cast with Transform Self to give her hair vibrant animal tones.

But, yes, that is also intentional. "I didn't feel comfortable as a guy, so I changed".
She also had a habit of casually transmuting things.

A slightly less "Goddamnit this method of playing games is bullshit" story involves the ST deciding I would blow myself up when I made a bomb by turning a cup into sodium and throwing it.

>>46928046
Who are you that you know that story already?

>>46926113
but division six, the loyalists, bear lodge and network zero are horrible

so's long night

>>46928100
It's not hard to tell that it's you. You're bitching loudly about your trans character. I'm not sure he has to be someone you know.

>>46928100
>Who are you that you know that story already?
You gave yourself away with
>So my character was this tiny little Moros transgirl
Everyone knows you're the only trans-fetishist pedophile on /wodg/

Can anyone explain to me how magic "works" in Mage: the Ascension? In terms of lore/flavor, not mechanics.

>>46928323
I am so powerful that everyone else must bend to my will

>>46928334
No, that's Awakening. Ascension is "I believe this so hard that stuff happens."

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>>46928323
There's a book about it.

>>46928323
"I'm right because I'm right because I'm right"

>>46927746
Makes Compacts less specific. Most of the ones >>46926350 suggests are about merging similar groups. You don't need a Hunt Club and an Abbey, especially when the Hunt Club's schtick is "the Ashwood Abbey... BUT SLASHERS!"
Talbot and Habibti Ma are different in terms of geography and focus, but they're still essentially about helping people who were supernatural victims. Night Watch and Union are practically the same thing. I disagree on the Barrett Commission+Cheiron and Maiden's Blood+Null Myst. They're different spheres and focuses.

Honestly, it'd be interesting if they basically ditched ALL of the Compacts and instead used a system where they separate Compacts into general categories (Rationalists, Believers, Scholars, whatever) and then the Compacts examples it gave were vague overviews, and suggestions of how to make your own Compact. Double the Compacts, but make their write up about as much as >>46926991. Then you've also got the ability to talk about where certain groups have similar ideals but have separate origins, without just making compacts that are the same thing over and over.

>>46928271
>>46928231
I'm bitching about a shitty MUSH. Also, playing a young character doesn't make you a pedophile, and she was still mid twenties.

>>46928533
No, but being a pedophile makes you a pedophile. You've always been a creepy fuck.

>>46928533
Turn Compact Membership into a version of Mystery Cult Initiation and tweak the merit slightly. Boom, done. You don't need to waste all that word count on a write-up for every compact's status benefits. Just give lots of options and examples.

>>46926437
we've got like 3 canon paragraphs about Daeva Corp like goddamn. Feed us, Onyx Path.

>>46928323

Magic (or rather Magick because why the fuck not) in Mage: The Ascension works like this:

Reality is consensual. As long as we all get together and say "Yes, the way the world as it is makes sense" on a subconscious level, it will be that way. This can work on multiple levels, there can be places where someone can cure cancer with a mix of water and herbs and some places where you can cure it with prayer based on what people believe, but everyone believes that the sun rises and sets.

Not everybody gets to set the stage for what everyone gets to agree on. While reality is consensual, it's not democratic either. This is where Mages come in. A single Mage can impose their personal will on reality without the consent of others at the risk of Paradox. A group of mages who believe in a certain kind of magickal practice get to make a Paradigm, again, with some Paradox. A Paradigm with enough people to believe in it, Mage and Sleeper, gets to be the Dominant Paradigm and the defining cornerstone of reality, and practice with little to no Paradox.

>>46929272
Hopefully they're not done with Demon sourcebooks and we'll get something about Stigmatics specifically and cults. That'd be the perfect place to really showcase Deva Corp.

>>46928533
I'd also combine Illuminated Brotherhood and Keepers of the Source as just 'we want to experience the supernatural to better ourselves'.

>>46929274
>>46928323
They use their will to influence the pattern of the universe. Things help, like personal beliefs and hypernarratives (if I shoot that gas tanker, it will explode, voodoo can be used to harm people at a distance)

>>46929274
Okay, so if I'm getting it straight, mages are just individuals that draw more water so to speak when deciding their local reality. Paradox is a sort of feedback they get when their imposed reality is too different from the Paradigm.

More or less correct? What makes one person a mage and another a Sleeper? Genetics? Random chance?

>>46929366

Pretty much for the first one, and as for the second one, everyone has the same chance to Awaken, since it usually happens around a personal revelation. There's no hard and fast way to game the system.

>>46929240
Well, that's technically what it is already. Conspiracies are also Mystery Cults with the first dot being "you can purchase Endowments".
I'm not saying we should get rid of them, and I do want to know about the groups, but we definitely don't need the huge three page spreads and redundant groups we got. Especially since looking over them, most of the three page spreads aren't really necessary to begin with.

>>46929355
Keepers of the Source are the anti-mage hippies who tend to have Unseen Sense that feels like the earth is crying whenever someone draws Source.
But if Compacts were split into group themes instead of giving everything a big write up, the two hippie groups would probably go in the same subsection.

Has Monica put out a Hunter open call yet?

>>46929606
No, she's been quiet for months. I'm worried when she resurfaces it'll be with bad news.

>>46929362
>if I shoot that gas tanker, it will explode
It wouldn't surprise me if this was automatically true in Ascension because everyone believes it.

>>46929987
The fact that there are so many things that don't work the way that they would if reality were consensual is one of the biggest problems I have with the concept of consensual reality.

Fun fact, that nut who shot up the Planned Parenthood because he had a dream that the aborted fetuses would greet him in heaven and tell him how he saved so many unborn children? He actually placed propane tanks around because he thought that during his shootout with cops he could shoot them to have them explode.

Apparently Right wing terrorists need to watch more Mythbusters.

>>46930060
>The fact that there are so many things that don't work the way that they would if reality were consensual is one of the biggest problems I have with the concept of consensual reality.

Isn't codifying reality the work of the Technocracy?

>>46930086
Dunno. But if reality were consensual, things people believe would be true. If the Technocracy codified reality, it wouldn't be consensual anymore.

>>46930136
I think that was their intent.

IIRC (from what little I know about mage) back in Ye Olden Days mages pretty much ran everything, and life was a nightmare for Sleepers that had no control over their reality. The Technocracy arose and invented shit like science and math to codify reality at a base level, and reign in the influence of mages.

>>46929636

She's most likely getting an outline ready to send to Paradox. That can take time, among other jobs she might have. It seems to be that to get a new edition or a new line, you have to submit an outline first and get that approved before any writing can be done, if DavidH's post of the Changeling 2e outline is anything to go by.

>>46930203
People need to believe in the stuff put forward for it to work though.Even with the Technocracy in control the world should work under action movie physics.

>>46930256
I worry she's going to go really far afield with a gameline that really doesn't need much change.

Alternate vampire origin stories. Anyone got any cool ones? I'm trying to come up with a Roman-based one regarding being cursed by Apollo and Diana, thus a weakness to the sun and silver.

>>46931127

Depends on the kind of change you're talking about. Now that the Tier system's been phased out and quite a bit of it was put into Mortal, Hunter might need a tighter facelift than expected.

>>46929366
Anyone/anything with a Avatar can awake (this includes people, clones, humanoid constructs and anything else a Player wants to try)

>>46931183
If a leech finds a dead body, it can possess it and cause it to rise again at night, using it as a vessel to hunt down more blood. This is why proper disposal of corpses is so important.

>>46931183
It's "common" knowledge that two or more consecutive generations of incest create a deranged, murderous child with pale skin that burns in the sun.

>>46931193
It really doesn't. There was never anything in the rules tied to the Tier system. It was just a term a of art. By the end of its nWoD run all the Compacts had Endowments, which were the sole difference between Tier 2 and Tier 3.

>>46931183
An angry sorcerer animated some skeletons. They steal blood from the living and use it to create/grow their own flesh. If the sorcerer is found and killed, they will return to the land of the dead where they belong.

>>46931183
The people willingly sacrifice their blood to Quetzalcoatl, but they have neglected Tezcatlipoca. In a bid to get what he is rightfully owed, he blessed his most loyal worshippers and sent them out into the night to collect the indebted blood on his behalf.

>>46931415
Well, I needed something to add to a plot about a Tlacique Setite trying to possess an Elder Kindred body from the body of a Neonate Malkavian. I like this spin, I'm totally stealing it.

>>46931183
Long ago, a man made a deal with a demon. He promised the demon his blood, and in exchange he received power.
Little did he realize, this extended to his progeny.
Now the demon stalks the night, riding the bodies of the deceased, hunting down those who carry the man's blood in their veins.

>>46926316
Not so true. They had multiple sacrifices going on all at once to better insure there chances.

Remember that scene with those Japanese school girls exercising the ghost? That was one of the many sacrifices.

If they tried to sacrifice the minimum then only the group in the cabin would need to die.

>>46931193
Where do you get this notion that the Tier system is being phased out? I think you misunderstand both the Tier system and that blog.

>>46931127
I don't see why Hunter doesn't need much change. I can think of a lot of places where it would. In the end, Hunter is mostly just Mortals+ about fighting monsters. The few things that differentiate it mechanically could use some work to really fill out a corebook without rehashing things that don't need to be rehashed. A lot of Hunter's 1e book feels like filler, like the page long descriptions of the Professions.

>>46931315
The main dividing line of Tiers is scope. A Compact with an "endowment" (most of which were just merits, not even supernatural) is still generally much smaller in scope than a Conspiracy, and much larger in scope than an unaffiliated Cell.

>>46932060
Professions were a new concept in need of being charged out. That isn't the case now. I also reject the idea that Compacts and Conspiracies are separated by scope. It may have been the intention but it was rarely followed. I can't remember seeing anything that limited the reach of Net 0, Null Mysteriis, the Loyalists, etc. All of them seemed to have global membership and as many if not more people than other conspiracy level groups like the Cainiite Heresy, Knights of St. George, etc. In fact, the Knights of St. Adrian turn that notion on its ear by being a Conspiracy with a more limited scope than most Compacts.

The real difference has always been the power level and complexity of the group's Endowment.

>>46932060
The only substantive change Monica has even hinted at is including more 'diverse perspectives', which immediately elicited an eye roll from me. I don't mind giving a more global view of the Vigil, but I worry it'll mean lots of blatant tokenism with several groups created for the sole purpose of making supposedly marginialized people or cultures feel included, which is not and should not be the point.

Give me interesting takes on the Vigil, don't just pick a native group out of a hat and try to make them something they aren't (looking at you God's Own Country).

>>46932445
Compacts and Conspiracies ARE separated by Scope, though. In fact, that's what the Tier system has always been about every other time that it's used.

"Scope" also doesn't mean just coverage of a geographic area. "Scope" is essentially powerlevel.

>>46932587
Nothing in Chronicles of Darkness has ever really been "blatant tokenism", despite the constant accusations, though. And being inclusive is not what tokenism means. You also need to remember that many of the writers aren't even American.

>(looking at you God's Own Country).
Do you mean the Salem one? That's not God's Own Country. And the native Compacts were a backer reward. Though frankly "lorekeepers" and "generic hunters" is kind of boring. I would have prefered a pre-Columbian pan-American Conspiracy still suffering the losses from the Great American Plague. (The Great American Plague having been caused by the Conspiracy's failures in stopping the Conquistadores from unleashing an ancient Aztec blood magic.)

>>46932697
That's literally what scope means; area of influence. You're wrong. Also God's Own Country was the ridiculous 50s New Zealand one with the bad attempt at incorporating and mythologizing Maori culture.

>>46932697
Being 'inclusive' in the sense of just name-dropping cultures or marginal groups or using them as some sort magical premise for various factions IS tokenism and White Wolf has a long history of it. Look at the various times they pulled from Celtic or Japanese culture.

>>46932697
god the native compacts were so fucking boring. I had high hopes for those and it was pretty clear they were thrown in after everything else. :(

>>46932697
>Nothing in Chronicles of Darkness has ever really been "blatant tokenism", despite the constant accusations, though.
Almost everything non-standard in OPP's works is blatant tokenism. They shove it in to have it in, which is precisely what token means.

>>46932052
>If they tried to sacrifice the minimum then only the group in the cabin would need to die.
Yeah, when securing the fate of the world, you don't go for the minimum. You get redundant on that shit.

>>46932908
Lodge of 10,000 Days was ok.

>>46932937
Everyone does their part. That level of international cooperation is actually quite inspiring.

>>46932894
Well... they were.

>>46932908
"It's pandering if I don't like it"

>>46932856
And the things from Chronicles of Darkness don't really have that problem. This isn't oWoD. The books all come with different locations around the world, and none of them are really "token". Places outside of America exist. Krakow and Japan and Berlin and Basrah are interesting places to get snapshots of the world. Not everything should be Los Angeles and New York.
Arguing that any inclusiveness is just "token" is as bad an argument as claiming it's pandering is.

>>46932940
Eh, I hedge with "almost" for a reason. I'm sure everyone has something they like. But then you look at Beast and it's asexual gender-neutral monster that uses the pronouns no real people actually use and it's just eye-rollingly cringe.

>>46932856
>or using them as some sort magical premise for various factions IS tokenism

that's not tokenism. if you have an actual reason for using a culture, even if you're just cribbing stereotypes or using them for a sense of exotic mysticism, then it's not token. token is when you're only including them for the sake of inclusion.

>>46932995
>"It's pandering if I don't like it"
I'm sorry to spoil the magic anon but OPP's writers are white American dudes and white American dudes who feel especially girly. They sure aren't speaking from experience. They're dropping these things in for socjus brownie points.

>>46932856
Nopers.

>>46932995
Do you really want to make the argument that the Tokyo setting is anything but a trainwreck made by expats and weebs? Show me the Japanese, Polish or Iraqi freelancers that wrote those sections.

>>46933033
Anon, don't you know that everyone at WoD is a tranny?

>>46933053
the Tokyo settings have been more "milquetoast" than "bad" imo. Basra & Krakow were both hype as hell though. Also one of the writers is married to a Polack.

>>46933033
Nwod is distincitvely less SJWy than owod.

In either case, its World of Darkness, not Country of Darkness, so its not remotely clear that an RPG product series about the planet of the monsters having all sorts of nationalities is done solely for zee grorious marxist revolution.

There's gonna be monsters and secret societies of all types, and attempts to fit them into as many cultures as possible, whether politically motivated or not.

>>46933053
>Show me the Japanese, Polish or Iraqi freelancers that wrote those sections.

How is that relevant in the least? It sounds more like you're arguing in favor of tokenism.

>>46933101
>Nwod is distincitvely less SJWy than owod.
I have no words for this other than "no".

>In either case, its World of Darkness, not Country of Darkness, so its not remotely clear that an RPG product series about the planet of the monsters having all sorts of nationalities is done solely for zee grorious marxist revolution.
Right. It's an Americentric setting that white people drop foreigners into as hooks if you want a taste of the exotic and the weeb.

No one's calling it a conspiracy or the end of the world. Just token.

>>46928381
A shit book.

Why is it so hard to find a Beast, Demon, or Mage game? Everywhere I look, it's Vampire Vampire Vampire and sometimes Werewolf. Whether in person or online, it's all anyone seems to be playing.
God damn it, I just want to do something interesting and new, not the same shit a thousand times over.

>>46933133
It's not token, though. That's not what the term means. And it's also not an American setting. Many of the writers aren't even American.

For fucks sake everyone's favourites, Dave and Chris, aren't American.

>>46933198

Vampire's an easier sell than the other games. That's the long and short of it. If you want to get those games, you either gotta run it or at least organize it.

>>46933198
there should be a fair bit of changeling if you do some digging.

>>46933198
>Why is it so hard to find a Beast,
Because Beast is ass.

>Demon,
Because Demon is, while not ass, a very peculiar and specific experience not tons of people want,

> Mage
It isn't out yet.

>>46933207
>It's not token, though. That's not what the term means. And it's also not an American setting. Many of the writers aren't even American.
It is absolutely an American setting, and that's exactly what token means: done for the sake of appearance.

>>46933133
>I have no words for this other than "no".

See: Werewolf and Mage. It doesn't get more SJW than Pentex and the Technocracy, two organizations that are racist and sexist; even in the book written to be sympathetic to the latter, iirc that one was even the one in which the sexism angle was introduced. The SJW factor of Pentex ranges from the obvious (how it notes the megacorp that wants to destroy ze vorld is very white) to the sublimely weird (that Gorehounds, the turbo rapist toxically masculine neanderthal fomori, hate women as a subconscious extension of their hatred of Gaia).

You will never find anything 1% of that level in nwod... period. The most you will see is retarded social commentary.

There is a grand total of one SJW faction crammed into nwod, the Thule guys, who are so progressive that they kill people just for being shitlords (seriously). At the same time, they're not argued to be the saviors of the universe.

>if you want a taste of the exotic and the weeb.

Then its not token, per definition. Keep that in mind.

>>46933198

Beasts are unpopular because not many people want to play a supernatural monster that always looks human (its way too Otherkin) and there's not much of a way to sell that, Mage is unpopular because everything is so overpowered that its hard to get shit done as an ST. Hopefully the new mage will fix that, because yeah.

>>46933207

I don't agree with the whole "tokenism" angle (while I'd ultimately prefer neither, I'd rather see people try and fail to be inclusive than see people just simply shrug their shoulders and go "no see this is authentic, not lazy"), but CofD and WoD being American focused settings is just fact, even with the international settings. The games as they are assume that you will be playing in the United States of America, even if it doesn't explicitly say so. That's a big reason why One World of Darkness is going to be more Eurocentric.

>>46933268
>See: Werewolf and Mage. It doesn't get more SJW than Pentex and the Technocracy, two organizations that are racist and sexist;

Environmentalism is not tied to SJW attitudes, nor was sexism a big deal in the oWoD. SJWs are very much a millennial blight, and oWoD was thoroughly a product of 90s attitudes.

>Then its not token, per definition. Keep that in mind.
Yes it is.

>>46933235
>done for the sake of appearance.

You keep flip flopping on what you think tokenism is.

>>46933314
No, I've stuck with the definition of the word the entire time. If I meant something else, I'd use a different word.

>>46933310
Dark Eras & the 2E settings have made strides in de-Americanizing it but for the most part I agree. Although I think Chronicles is about as Eurocentric as it is Americentric.
>the Thule guys, who are so progressive that they kill people just for being shitlords
they kill neo-nazis.

>>46933312
>Environmentalism is not tied to SJW attitudes,

Man, check out PETA. Virtually everyone on the environmentalism train is SJW, and vice versa. One comes with the other.

>nor was sexism a big deal in the oWoD

See: Fight Sexism!: The Tribe. If there was an nwod tribe about Fight Sexism! then it would be obviously atrocious pandering, but due to your nostalgia blinders you can't see it.

Your level of historical revisionism is absolutely amazing. Your entire attitude is that since you grew up with it, it gets a free pass, but there's no fucking distance at all. The tone of the conspiracy (more us vs them, more overarching and centrally managed) is different, but the morality (shitlords vs the perfectly diverse laundry list dream team) of owod is far more SJWy.

>>46933365
>they kill neo-nazis.

Right, they kill people for being hazily defined shitlords, and they have a very expansive definition of what constitutes a shitlord, to include transhumanist mages.

>>46933394
>Man, check out PETA.
PETA aren't really identified as SJWs. Whackos, but not SJWs.

Seriously. Environmentalism and the Fuck The Man anti-corporate attitude of Apocalypse does not derive from progressive left-wing identity politics, it's the same wrathful punk influence that fueled the cyberpunk genre.

>See: Fight Sexism!: The Tribe. If there was an nwod tribe about Fight Sexism! then it would be obviously atrocious pandering, but due to your nostalgia blinders you can't see it.
Yeah, no.

>Your level of historical revisionism is absolutely amazing. Your entire attitude is that since you grew up with it, it gets a free pass, but there's no fucking distance at all. The tone of the conspiracy (more us vs them, more overarching and centrally managed) is different, but the morality (shitlords vs the perfectly diverse laundry list dream team) of owod is far more SJWy.
Nope. nWoD is far more SJW than oWoD.

>>46933434
a). Does this person support fascism
b). are they violently racist?
c). do they really like hitler?
if you check 2 out of 3 you've discovered a neo-nazi.
It played into a larger discussion in Hunter's corebook about hunters who go from being monster hunters to full-time vigilantes.
Where's the transhumanist mage-hunting bit? I feel like that's more Aegis Kai Doru's bit.

>>46933198
>Demon
I'm actually running a Demon game, and sort of looking for a new player right now

If you've been actively reading the generals, mine's the game where it took the players 5 sessions to meet, and our 6th session resulted in one of them having to Go Loud to fight an Angel.

I'm also currently looking for a new player, since one left after the 5th session and the 3rd guy in the group does a shit job of making himself available for the game.

>>46933616
What days? If it fits my schedule, maybe we can work something out.

>>46933485

>Environmentalism and the Fuck The Man anti-corporate attitude of Apocalypse does not derive from progressive left-wing identity politics, it's the same wrathful punk influence that fueled the cyberpunk genre.

All of which came from the same left-wing progressive identity. The stuff people call "SJW" and the "wrathful punk influence" are all descendants of the New Left style of political thinking. Apocalypse had its characters at the Seattle riots, for goodness sake.

Seriously, your only argument is "no, it isn't". You can't explain how oWoD's gothic punk, politically focused nature wouldn't just be called "SJW pandering" had the term existed in the 90s), so all you have is denial. You need a better argument than that.

>>46933789
>All of which came from the same left-wing progressive identity. The stuff people call "SJW" and the "wrathful punk influence" are all descendants of the New Left style of political thinking. Apocalypse had its characters at the Seattle riots, for goodness sake.

My sister and I both come from the same source, but we're not the same thing.

SJW thought and attitudes descends from something in the past like literally all thoughts and attitudes do, but it's not the same as those things.

>Seriously, your only argument is "no, it isn't". You can't explain how oWoD's gothic punk, politically focused nature wouldn't just be called "SJW pandering" had the term existed in the 90s), so all you have is denial. You need a better argument than that.

I've already explained how you're wrong. SJW is a millennial thing that refers to left-wing identity politics.

Fuck The Man attitudes and radical environmentalism aren't included in that, even though both descend from prior leftist ideologies.

Having submitted an application to OPP and made three Mummy threads on the forums, I now retreat to the deathless sleep that is shitposting in /cofdg/.

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>>46933851
>My sister and I both come from the same source, but we're not the same thing.
i dont know man, but you sure fuck the same, same person. cause you fuck eachother
faggot

>>46933982
The image is the best thing about this post. That's a succulent looking bird, not sure if chicken or turkey. But I'm going to pretend it's a turkey so that the (you).jpg is calling someone a jive turkey.

>>46931183

When Sekhmet refused to stop slaughtering mankind, she wasn't tamed with offerings of beer and forgiven like the myths claim; Ra scorched her with the heat of the sun and drove her into the desert night.

It's what I'm using for a Gangrel bloodline.

>>46934046
be honest: have you created an egyptaboo bloodline/legacy/lodge for every game that has something like them?

>>46933982
So am I a faggot or a sister-fucker? Those sound pretty incompatible.

>>46934079

Nope, though I'm hoping the Dark Eras Companion does the Legacy part of that for me. As for Lodges, the only one I care about is the idea of a bunch of Ghost Wolves trying to find Eater of Names to build a mage-hunting Tribe around.

Despite appearances in these threads, I generally care more about both Rome and the Cold War than I do Egypt.

>>46933851

>SJW is a millennial thing that refers to left-wing identity politics.

You're right in that it's millennial, but it's absolutely nothing new. In the 90s, they just called it being "politically correct". Any time before that, they probably just called it Communist. All the things that get people jumpy about the term are the direct descendants of things like Critical Theory, products of the New Left. Whether it's misapplied or the inevitable descendant is up to the person, but there's nothing new about any of this. Radical politics is radical politics, it's just that what becomes radical politics shifts as the Overton Window moves to the left or to the right.

What makes any of this different, other than time? Are you just a member of the Old Left? I'm tempted to say so, what with your using "identity politics" as a scare term. And if you are, that's fine. Just don't let that lead you into pretending that this is anything new.

It's the same culture war it's always been since the late 1940s, it's just that the new generation shuffled the deck chairs and slapped on some new labels. The movements all took up new causes as the old ones failed or succeeded. And when it comes to White Wolf games, oWoD indulged in the radical politics of the 90s as part of its "games for mature minds" marketing, while in comparison, nWoD only dips its toe. The only reason it sticks out to you more is that you've become more sensitive to politics that you don't agree with.

>>46934138

oWoD absolutely loved a somewhat insane blend of environmentalism, anti-corporatism, and romanticized primitivism, which were all relevent in the 1990s. Now environmentalism is passé as you have to be a hardcore nutjob Republican to disbelieve global warming (or at the very least being opposed to recycling) and nobody gives a shit that corporations are evil because they sell us cool stuff.

nWoD/CofD cares about the trendy causes of the current day, just as oWoD did back when it came out. This is nothing new.

>>46934138
>In the 90s, they just called it being "politically correct". Any time before that, they probably just called it Communist.
PC is arguably the direct prelude to SJW, yes. Communist, no.

>What makes any of this different, other than time?
The specifics of the beliefs.

> Are you just a member of the Old Left? I'm tempted to say so, what with your using "identity politics" as a scare term.
It's not a scare term. It's just the term for it. Correct language is useful for conveying accurate information.

And no, I wouldn't identify as a leftist at all. I'm more centrist than anything; the right has too many good ideas and the left too many bad ones, even if on the whole I lean more toward the left.

> it's just that the new generation shuffled the deck chairs and slapped on some new labels.
Why even ask what's different when you point out differences in the same post?

>And when it comes to White Wolf games, oWoD indulged in the radical politics of the 90s as part of its "games for mature minds" marketing, while in comparison, nWoD only dips its toe. The only reason it sticks out to you more is that you've become more sensitive to politics that you don't agree with.
You can call oWoD a more political line. What you cannot do is call it a more SJW line.

Because nWoD is more SJW. I don't mind oWoD's politics because vanishingly few people care about them anymore or talk about them. Radical environmentalism and punk-anarchy are massively on the decline.

In 10, 20 years, we'll mock the SJW attitudes of nWoD the same way we cringe at Apocalypse.

>>46934121
so many enticing new firstborn and so little canon info on them :(

>>46934224
We barely have canon info on the Firstborn we already had, let alone new ones.

>>46934224

Because I like shiny new obscure things, I care more about why Creator Wolf went mad or where Eater of Names went than any of the Firstborn that already belong to Tribes.

Unless Death Wolf is secretly Anpu, of course.

Are there any mage societies that basically let me play Terrence McKenna?

>>46934247
There's plenty in Tribes of the Moon & The Pure.
>>46934266
I figured Creator Wolf & Destroyer Wolf used to be the same entity before something(maybe the Sundering) split them. Not sure why.

>>46925275
>Not being TFV
>Not having a game set in Nam
>Not having this play as you raid a KGB Mages secret base
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBecM3CQVD8

>>46925662
>Hating Night Watch
>Hating Buffy 2.0
>Hating Monster Hunting Seasteadders

>>46933668
Sundays, currently starting at 10 AM MST/PDT/GMT-7

>>46933485
>does not derive from progressive left-wing identity politics,

The two primary characters of WoD are:
1. A Black Fury, who are 99% oppressed wymyn: The Tribe and 1% Greek mythology;
2. A Wendigo, who despite looking amazingly white is part of oppressed and vengeful native americans: The Tribe (With some genuinely cool mythology).

Its Intersectionality taken to the extreme. Which is from the 60s-70s, and includes all the identity politics nonsense. You're a blithering retard if you think SJWs are new. They just have... new websites.

>nWoD is far more SJW than oWoD.

There is no WHYTE MALES DESTROYING MOTHER EARTH faction in nWoD, no WHYTE MALES DESTROYING THE HUMAN SOUL/CREATIVITY faction in nWoD, and no book that features an evil spirit lord who is called The Patriarch (and is exactly what you'd think) in nwod, try again.

>>46934401

Delta Green does everything I want from VALKYRIE (and Hunter as a whole, really) better. Ditto for Unknown Armies and Mage.

Not to say that I don't adore both gamelines, of course.

>>46933502
Violent racism or liking Hitler aren't requirements to be murdered by the Loyalists of Thule, and "fascism" is defined as loosely by them as by antifas.

So its basically
1). Does this person support fascism, however I choose to define it?
2). Can I interpret words as violence?
3). Could I conceivably liken anything about them to Hitler?

>>46934534
>and no book that features an evil spirit lord who is called The Patriarch (and is exactly what you'd think) in nwod
Seers of the Throne says hi.

>>46933851
>SJW is a millennial thing that refers to left-wing identity politics.

Its a new term, but SJWs are not even slightly new, and nothing about their ideology is even slightly new.

>>46926151
>but they've always been in the shadow of Malleus Malificarum.
Yeah the long night seemed kind of lame in comparison

>>46926159
idk I have heard some podcasts about sea steadding and it sounds benign.

>>46926241
why would the bear lodge be slashers?

>>46934357

Ascension or Awakening?

Ascension, probably the Cult of Ecstacy. Awakening, the Free Council would be your best bet.

>>46934595
The Father's schtick is religious oppression, not institutionalized sexism.

>>46934689

I disagree. The big draw of HtV for me is that you're playing ostensibly normal dudes, and most of the Conspiracies get too crazy with their Endowments for me to find them relatable.

I can find more in common with a devout, apocalyptic Christian character than a sensible Christian character than can shoot Honest To Fucking God Miracled out of his ass.

>>46926353
>What COULD be fleshed out is the Demonblooded PMC
I actually had an idea for a PMC hunter group. I need to keep my ideas more original I guess

>>46933198
Still new to STing beast to run it, but it is fun.(Found running it character driven with minimal crossover at the start, leading to a slow boil of darker themes and over arching plot budding as it gos on is satisfying.Also read up on how everyones senses work; just because you auto detect other vampires doesn't mean you can spot the mage, werewolf or demon in the crowed, or tell them apart when you do see them.)

"he has a staff, hes a wizard!"

"wizards don't turn into giant furies!"

"well some of them do, how else can you explain that wizard turning into a giant fury?"

~Beast players confusing werewolves and mages.

>>46934727
>Cult of Ecstacy
that seems too hedonistic. McKenna was a psychonaught, a scientist and philosopher.

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>>46926788
>They should be removed because they are terrible.

>>46934218

>In 10, 20 years, we'll mock the SJW attitudes of nWoD the same way we cringe at Apocalypse.

We probably will, but not because they're inherently different: they're all trendy leftist causes, adopted whole-hardheartedly and perhaps executed in a hamfisted way due to the nuances of execution not being so clear at the time. It's just that one has a trendy term of its own ready to go, and the other has elements that either fizzled out or just became mainstream politics, because that's what happens to the radical politics of the past. The same will happen to these "SJW" ideas: some'll be shaken out, but more than a few will find their way into mainstream politics, and those that hold them will find themselves dealing with newer radicals with the inexperience and fire they had when they were young.

And again, there's really nothing new about these left-wing identity politics. If anything, it's far, far milder than the left-wing identity politics of the 60s and 70s, something that even a centrist like yourself should feel fortunate about.

>>46934835

The Abbey should be in the book as an antagonist group, a cautionary tale about losing sight of /why/ you take up the Vigil.

>>46934773

Ah, good point. Maybe a Virtual Adept or a Son of Ether, then?

>>46934534
>There is no WHYTE MALES DESTROYING MOTHER EARTH faction in nWoD,
Environmentalism isn't part of identity politics, especially in the 90s.

You keep talking politics, but not SJW politics.

>>46934595
The Father doesn't even *want* to be worshiped by the masses and his followers promote a diversity of religions, albeit as a divide by conquer approach.

>>46934962
>And again, there's really nothing new about these left-wing identity politics
The idea of crazy left-wingers isn't new. Specifics of SJWs are; victim culture being a big one. They've made it the foundational bedrock of their lives.

>>46935024
>Environmentalism isn't part of identity politics

You keep saying that, yet you have nothing to base it on. Virtually all SJWs have extreme ideas about the environment, including that there are magical forms of energy being kept down by Big Oil. Its why Bush was basically the perfect nemesis.

Moreover, Its part of Intersectionalism, which is all that is SJWism, and all that SJWism is contained in the Intersectionalism of the 60s and 70s.

Also, you have to remember that even if you strip out the pollution element, Pentex is You're A Whyte Male: The Company, that literally spreads rape culture and toxic masculinity. Sometimes that involves actual masculinity toxins, but the active ingredient for becoming a fomor is psychological and spiritual in nature.

>>46934835
How many times have you actually seen an Abbey character? They are outright evil hedonist, they are not written like a PC group.

>>46935070
>>46935024

Again, you are saying nothing new.

>victim culture being a big one. They've made it the foundational bedrock of their lives.

That kind of accusation was a common reaction to the "white oppressor" narrative back when Critical Racial Theory was starting up. Again, a response to an old leftist thoughts, just gussied up and slapped with a new label. And surprise surprise, there's a lot of that in oWoD too! The story of the Bunyip is your "victim culture" to a T. And yes, that's one of the elements that one should cringe about today when reading Apocalypse.

You claim that there's some divide between "wackos" and "SJW"s, but it's just splitting hairs. It's just the same people, but some get a pass because they're not annoying you on the internet.

>>46935070
I'm really not sure victim culture is new. Certainly, it permeates WtA to the core.

>>46935259
... Bro, calm down. You're merging a lot of stuff here that doesn't go together.

>>46935315
Contrary to the author's forum posts, Hunters needn't be good guys any more than Vampires. They are certainly the most beloved and popular of the Compacts.

>>46935336
>You're merging a lot of stuff here that doesn't go together.

They all do go together, literally. See Intersectionalism.

>>46935358
>beloved and popular
That's why most threads no one has ever even seen an Ashwood character or campaign.
But sure, beloved and popular.

>>46935382
You can lie and strawman all you want, this is 4chan, no one will get in your way.I just hope you don't believe yourself, that's what is important here.

>>46925490
>>46925533
A thread of fagness, spun of his own tapestry and fulfilling his own prophecy

Where's that one dumb bot when you need him?

>>46935421
>You can lie and strawman all you want

Uh... Intersectionality is not a lie or a strawman. Its an ideology. Try again.

>>46934978
>>46935315
It literally does not matter how or why Hunters kill monsters as long as they do.
I dont care if an Abbey Member just wants to drain a vampire and mix their blood in with some red wine or snort some Vampire ash with cocaine. All that matters is that the threat has been removed from society. And not all are irredeemable perverts and drug addicts either. Some are just adrenaline junkies that get off from cheating death.

>>46934998
I am afraid I dont know much about those

>>46935259
>You keep saying that, yet you have nothing to base it on.
I'm basing it on the fact identity politics has nothing to do with environmentalism. Environmentalism is unrelated to identities.

Ain't nobody in the world a climate or a tree outside of Tumblr.

>Also, you have to remember that even if you strip out the pollution element, Pentex is You're A Whyte Male: The Company, that literally spreads rape culture and toxic masculinity. Sometimes that involves actual masculinity toxins, but the active ingredient for becoming a fomor is psychological and spiritual in nature.

Pentex is Big Business. The Pentex issue is rooted in anti-establishment punk sensibilities, intimately tied to radical environmentalism.

>>46935320
>Again, you are saying nothing new.
There's no need to say something new when the old bit I've been saying is correct.

>You claim that there's some divide between "wackos" and "SJW"s, but it's just splitting hairs. It's just the same people, but some get a pass because they're not annoying you on the internet.

No, man. Environmentalism isn't identity politics. You'll get it someday.

>>46935400
>4chan is the entire RPG community

>>46935557
>Pentex is Big Business

And noted to have very little diversity, and noted to have products that promote toxic masculinity and literal rape culture, to the point of becoming turbo rapists.

>>46935550
>It literally does not matter how or why Hunters kill monsters as long as they do.
Well, sometimes if their motivations get twisted around badly enough they go full slasher and become a threat to society in general. That probably matters.

>>46935400
By the standard of campaigns (wait I thought we called them chronicles, don't want people thinking we also play other RPGs), I have never seen reference to a homogeneous compact or conspiracy Hunter at all ever online, and only a Lucifuge one offline.

I find Ashwood to be the most frequently referenced compact. Most of them are there to just shit on a kind of person, be hopelessly naive and misled, or all of the above (see: The Long Night), but Ashwood Abbey is different. It wasn't written to be mean spirited to any group of people, its funny, great as antagonists too.

>>46935691
The potential for becoming slashers does not make Ashwood Abbey antagonists. In that case every Hunter group is an antagonist

>>46935691
Even Slashers APPEAR to be fully Hunters, or at least the Slasher tactics section seems to imply they are. Or are Slasher tactics only usable by fallen hunters? I didn't get that impression, anyway.

>>46935629
Yes, Big Business has always been the domain of the white man in popular culture. The difference is that punk says Big Business / Government / The Establishment is inherently evil, and so the people in it are evil; identity politics says the white men are evil for being white men.

It's a difference in focus. As has been repeatedly noted, all modern thoughts derive from earlier ones. SJW ideology didn't pop up in a vacuum and it draws on and refines (or fucks up) past ideas. You can see common roots between identity politics of now and radical environmental / anarchism of the past.

If you need a shorter version:

angry punk sentiments: The Man is bad, and anyone with The Man is bad, and they do Bad Things.

SJW: The Men are bad, and anyone with The Men are bad, and they do bad things.

One's about organization, one's about people.

>>46935695
Hmmm, I think they are meant to be mean spirited to rich kids with supposed 'affluenza'.

>>/pol/

>>46925535
Cainite's Rites of Denial are easy enough to expand to other splats. Honestly, a refluffed Cainite Heresy is what I want in the new Hunter core, along with a Delta Green analog.

>>46926013
>Merge the Union and the Night Watch together thematically. Joe the Plumber and Jamal the Gangbanger get together at night and fuck up monsters.

>Loyalists of Thule, with a little less guilt and a little more 'We need to protect occult knowledge'

>Ditch Ashwood. They're pretty garbage. Replace with Bear Lodge, and tack on some of the richer elements to that

>As much as I like them, Null Mysterii need to go. This is where your Delta Green guys end up instead - and are TFV's fall guy's and suicide squads

>Some sort of Knights of the Red Branch style anti-fae compact/conspiracy

>Keep N-Zero and Long Night as is, they work perfectly fine.

Basically keep whatever else I forgot to mention in as compacts too. They work fine. Conspiracies really need a bit of a revamp though.

>>46935358
Hunters are supposed to be somewhat well-intentioned. The Abbey has no reedeming quality, they are bored rich people fucking around because they are bored rich people.

>>46935783
>The Abbey has no reedeming quality
the fact that they kill monsters is pretty redeeming

>>46935740
>You can see common roots between identity politics of now and radical environmental / anarchism of the past.

Mostly because it IS in every way an ideology 30+ years old. Not an ideology that borrows on older ones, just an older ideology.

In addition,
>white men are evil for being white men

You aren't understanding them. "Whiteness" IS the Establishment and an organization to them. To me, it sounds like a contradiction when they argue that whites simultaneously don't exist and are evil, but to them, whiteness IS a conspiracy, a la the Camarilla or Technocracy or whatever, not a race. Celtic people, for example, may exist, but "white people" don't exist other than as a harmful social construct.

>>46935783
The Abbey would work better as more of a frat club / thrill junkies compact. Basically, it's people who found out that holy shit monsters exist bro, we gotta ice them, or are looking for an insane thrill that the supernatural provides. Ever run from a werewolf with lunacy snapping at your mind? See a man change into a giant crow? Have someone mind control you to do rad shit?

You can do the Abbey as not a bunch of degenerate idle rich tossers faffing about and occasionally hunting monsters instead of fucking them

>>46935752
Good catch, I forgot they were mostly rich.

>>46935816
Good point. I'll move the goalposts and add "other than killing monsters".

>>46935816

You know what also kills monsters? Other fucking monsters.

When the best argument you can make for your Hunter group is "no worse than the monsters, at least," it's a pretty shitty group.

>>46935783
>Hunters are supposed to be somewhat well-intentioned.

They really aren't. The early draft had the potion guys be a front for terrorism, now they just SELL DOPE DISGUISED AS A NUN. Witchfinders should disabuse anyone of the notion that hunters are supposed to be "the good guys."

Virtually all the conspiracies have heavy, HEAVY negative elements.

Hunters kill monsters for any reason from to defend the little guy, to that they're retarded caricatures of Christians, to that they're jealous, to that they have a gun to their head, to that they can chop up the bodies for profit, etc. etc. Affluenza induced violence doesn't even make me blink. They're refreshingly honest. They don't need to make excuses about why "its okay for me to use magical powers to kill people for having magical powers," they just do what they want without needing a lame moral/religious filter.

They add a much needed level of energy and positivity to the setting.

>>46935833
>Mostly because it IS in every way an ideology 30+ years old. Not an ideology that borrows on older ones, just an older ideology.
It has similarities born of a common ancestor. But it isn't that ancestor.

>You aren't understanding them. "Whiteness" IS the Establishment and an organization to them. To me, it sounds like a contradiction when they argue that whites simultaneously don't exist and are evil, but to them, whiteness IS a conspiracy, a la the Camarilla or Technocracy or whatever, not a race. Celtic people, for example, may exist, but "white people" don't exist other than as a harmful social construct.
I understand them just fine. Pentex would absolutely be the same if some trans-ethnic half-black demikin weaboo was in charge, and the proper anti-establishment response would be opposing it.

The SJW response would not be opposing that. Again, one is focused on the people, and one is focused on who's in control regardless.

Anti-establishment wants to tear Pentex down. SJWs want to make sure it has a woman CEO.

>>46935891
>>46935908
Untill they turn into The Hunt Club I have no problem with them. The Hunt Club shouldnt even be considered a Hunter group though and should just be a slasher cult.

>>46935841
By their nature as a Compact its more logical that they're rich. Lower class Abbey analogs would be just a local cell.

Also, the Abbey still has the same moral/tribalistic veneer virtually all hunters do: that things stronger and nastier than people appear to exist. They just want to assert their pride as humans by showing how nasty humans can be to them, and view monsters as acceptable targets.

The very fact that they rape kill and torture monsters instead of people shows they're as moral as most hunters, though I'm sure for some its just about being smart (ie. cops usually won't come looking for you if you ice a vampire).

>>46935925

Ask a SJW what xe thinks about Haliburton or Raytheon. You are creating divisions that don't exist. Also, Anti Establishment has always been just about being useful idiots to switch who's in power.

>>46935951
>The very fact that they rape kill and torture monsters instead of people shows they're as moral as most hunters, though I'm sure for some its just about being smart (ie. cops usually won't come looking for you if you ice a vampire).

Which is what for me makes the Abbey a line in the sand case. You could do a good Ashwood Abbey group, but the main problem is that to do Ashwood Abbey as presented in the fluff is to have an entire party of That Guys. Having a Hellfire Club turned Monster Hunting Club is fine, but there comes a point when it's time to be serious. And the Abbey doesn't seem to play it as serious, which is a bit of a disappointment. More mentions of Abbey members doing things like buying up land a vampire uses as a haven in order to send him on the run when they demolish it, fucking up lay lines by building a strip mall over them to piss off mages, chopping down that sacred grove and holding an orgy on it before fucking with some werewolves, that should be the Abbey, not 'WHOOO SEX AND DRUGS AND RAPING THINGS TO DEATH YAAAAAY'

>>46936021
thats an issue with players not the compact itself

I mean every RPG can be cringey and annoying if you get shit players

>>46936021

They're a Compact. Not a Conspiracy. They have riches, but they are motivated by the Id. Which is fine. One can say the purpose of having most active supernatural monsters be of human shape and human origin is to shine a mirror on the darker elements of humanity, and Ashwood Abbey says "right back atcha." They don't have to be smart. The Compacts in general are fairly derpy, don't have much of a coherent plan at all.

Ashwood Abbey is the only (core) one that has a particularly clear cut goal (raping monsters) and a means of obtaining that goal.

If being as dumb as a box of rocks kicks you out of the hunter club, we would have almost no Compacts left. If being horrifyingly immoral or amoral kicked you out of the hunter club, we would have almost no Conspiracies left.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ou0w40EtMDA
So does anyone else want to play a homeless travelling band of mage street musicians?

>>46936019
>Ask a SJW what xe thinks about Haliburton or Raytheon
I don't care what a random SJW thinks about them. You need only look around to see and hear common SJW talking points re: corporations.

The division is there whether you like it or not.

>>46936091
Alright. If you aren't willing to look at the big picture and at history then I can't help you. The Reds and democratic socialists have always done the same shit. What you can't destroy, you subvert. That's always been the case and always will be the case.

>>46936083
To put it another way, hunters were the first Power splat, just as Vampires are the Social, Werewolves the Physical, Changelings the Finesse, Prometheans the Resistance, and Mages the Mental splat. They spent too much time wondering about whether they could, and not whether they should. Power without wisdom fits perfectly for them, even though (supposedly) that's mages thing (though I'd more describe mage as a Storytelling Game of playing twenty questions every encounter with the ST).

Virtually all hunters share the same goal (a lot of demoralized and dead monsters).

>>46935918
That's why I said "somewhat". Cheiron is in mostly for profit, but they also wish to improve medical science. Valkyrie runs all sorts of shady projects, but they also try to keep the country safe from the supernatural. These are positive aims.

>>46936190
>These are positive aims.

In a very general sense, everyone has "positive aims." They want enjoyment, self actualization and self esteem, and their goal also coincidentally involves purging a lot of supernaturals. If you fall into the hands of Ashwood Abbey, you will probably be victimized and killed once they get bored with you. If you fall into the hands of the Cheiron Group, you will probably spend the rest of human history having parts of you chopped off or extracted and allowed to regenerate so they can be chopped off again.

All you can say about the groups in Hunter is that they are relative and that all the conspiracies are perfect ideas for use as antagonists.

The whole idea that PC groups should be in any way the good guys in anything World of Darkness related completely baffles me and is not something I can even distantly relate to. They shouldn't be assumed to be the good guys, don't need to be the good guys, there don't even need to be whole factions OF good guys in either world of darkness.

Finally, insisting on hunter groups being good guys rather blows away the point of Cells, which are a way to keep your morality and sanity intact at the cost of power and loneliness.

>>46936179
Of course, there's Net0 and Null Mysterii, they mostly just want to stalk monsters and take photos of them in the shower and whatnot, and I guess they're big enough to get a spot in the core book at least.

>>46936306
even arguable the most well intentioned compacts like The Union basically only give a shit if a werewolf pack claims the local park or a mage opens a cursed antique store on the corner.

>All these arguments about whether nWoD is SJW
None of you even have a concrete answer for what any of it means in the first place.

>>46936343
For all their dorkiness, Net0 is fine. You can definitely take pictures of monsters; what exactly you hope to accomplish with another story. A group that sorta-maybe wants to break the Masquerade fits Hunter perfectly and is one of the most obvious kinds of hunter archetypes, and in the context of WoD old and new is at least as appropriate as the Catholic Church Conspiracy hunter.

>>46936389
That's not true. I gave a concrete answer earlier: left-wing identity politics. An SJW is an advocate of those.

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>>46936389
Speak for yourself.

ENOUGH SHITPOSTING ABOUT POLITICS

TELL ME WHY THE FUCK ANYONE WOULD EVER JOIN THE INVICTUS BECAUSE IT LOOKS LIKE THE UNHOLY MEETING GROUND OF FEUDAL SERFDOM AND A PYRAMID SCHEME

>>46934721
Because people get them confused with The Hunt Club, because their schtick is almost entirely the same, but one of them hunts people and the other hunts Werewolves.

>>46934978
You straight up stole that idea from a post I made earlier.

>>46935550
>It literally does not matter how or why Hunters kill monsters as long as they do.
Says you. That's literally one of the themes of the game. There are even mechanics for it. Repeatedly "how are you not the monsters?" is brought up. The Abbey is also an atmosphere of secrecy and transgression, where the more taboo something is the more interesting it is. They're the ones throwing creepy Eyes Wide Shut parties and raping Sweeney Todd's wife while laughing.
Some of them are just adrenaline junkies, but that's not the core of the Compact. That's why they should be in the Antagonists section, though.

>>46935358
The developer is the one writing the book, so their vision for it is the one that matters. "Don't become the monster you hunt" is also one of the core themes of Hunter. So, yes, Hunters do need to be "good guys" more than Vampires. The entire point of Hunter is to be a Good Guy in a morally grey world. There are even subsystems like The Code for highlighting this, and a lot of the book goes "Are Hunters really that different than Monsters?"

>>46935695
Having a religious Compact isn't shitting on Protestants any more than The Union is shitting on blue collar grassroots political movements.

>>46935740
>angry punk sentiments: The Man is bad, and anyone with The Man is bad, and they do Bad Things.
>SJW: The Men are bad, and anyone with The Men are bad, and they do bad things.
Most of what you've said is wrong, but this is the wrongest.

>>46936483
>TELL ME WHY THE FUCK ANYONE WOULD EVER JOIN THE INVICTUS BECAUSE IT LOOKS LIKE THE UNHOLY MEETING GROUND OF FEUDAL SERFDOM AND A PYRAMID SCHEME
The Invictus book talks about this. Even being on the bottom of the Invictus' totem pole results in wealth, influence, and the ability to socialize with the most institutionally privileged of Kindred.

The general "career path" for a new vampire in the Invictus is to work their way up over hundreds of years, collecting debts and favors, and rising to prominence by leveraging them, often when another local elder or two is in torpor.

>>46936486
>Most of what you've said is wrong, but this is the wrongest.
Nah. Everything I've said is right.

>>46936486
>straight up stole

"The decadent rich sociopaths might not be good guys" isn't exactly a revolutionary or unique idea, anon. It was also the subject of a lengthy forum discussion months ago.

Chill.

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>>46936457

>Mfw when super privileged except for the religion and fertile thing

Is this supposed to make me feel bad? Cause this thing is a huge self esteem booster.

>>46936483
The Invictus is the proverbial adult in the room. Seriously. They are authentically the only vampire group that even fucking comprehends that Humanity is a thing that's important for vampires, that its good to keep it and how they can do so. They are also the only vampire group that consistently makes long term plans along with a system to ensure things work out in the long run. Also, blood pacts are off the hook yo.

Other groups have kewl powerz, but the Invictus are basically the only halfway reasonable guys.

I really can't emphasize that enough. The other vampire groups tend to engage in humanity shredding acts just to prove you're hardcore. The Lancea Sanctum comprehends that low humanity is bad, but thinks acts that actually shred humanity are good for it.

The Invictus likes to promote a calm, respectful atmosphere and work together to make sure all their members are cared for and able to get together peacefully. They want to have a nice vampire society, while the Carthians (in 2e anyway) have as their overriding goal, "NO! Stop having nice things!"

There are other groups I'd pick as far as the best powerz, but as far as who I'd rather be a part of from the roleplaying perspective, Invictus all the way.

>>46936486
>their schtick is almost entirely the same
The bear lodge are Hunters who merely want to hunt a new type of game. Werewolves are just animals to them.

The Hunt Club have completely abandoned even the facade of being legitimate hunters and just wanted to recreate The Most Dangerous Game.
The only thing comparable is a hunting motif.
When you hear a hunter talk its not all about "it feels good to kill something" (which is essentially what The Hunt Club does) its about the challenge. Of pitting the human body and mind against the elements and a creature who has evolved over thousands of years to be the perfect predator or to avoid such predators.
Werewolves are the logical step up to that goal.

>>46936554

The Invictus act the most human, but they act like the shittiest parts of humanity. Maybe I'm just not built for bog-picture planning, but I can't see myself as a neonate looking at my political options and picking "be the bottom of the totem pole for the next hundred or so year until the people abusing me go back to sleep and let me be a big boy."

It seems like Invictus membership is suffering at least until you hit Elder, and even then you've built up so many oaths and have been through so much shit.

>>46936486
>The developer is the one writing the book, so their vision for it is the one that matters.

What sort of convoluted mental gymnastics does it take to have your POV?

>Word of God decrees that hunters are the good guys
>Word of God decrees that Depraved Rape-Sadists are a hunter faction
>Therefore...????

>The entire point of Hunter is to be a Good Guy in a morally grey world.

Not even close. Is this just a "literally" thing? The "entire point" of Hunter, if there is one (which is saying a lot, RPGs generally don't have "points," they more are about "being") is confronting monsters with at least a tinge of aggression or suspense involved, ie the Vigil.

>There are even subsystems like The Code for highlighting this

The Code is for the opposite. Were Paths of Enlightenment about being the good guy? No. They're about your morality becoming warped and less and less normal.

If the developer wants hunters to be "the good guys," then he has only one recourse: show, not tell.

>>46936612

The current developer is both not a he and explicitly started a discussion on whether or not the Abbey need to be reworked/cut.

>>46935769
Do you mean Bear Lodge or Hunt Club? People keep getting them mixed, which is kind of a point in neither's favour. Tweaking the Abbey or putting them in an Antagonist section as the Hunt without The Vigil would be better. What's Knights of the Red Branch?
Like I said upthread, I think the best way to do Compacts might be to give them all a 100 to 200 word blurb and a Mystery Cult style Merit. Collect them under a handful of headers like "Working Class Heroes" or "Rehabilitators" and "Defenders of Academia" and give shorter, quicker write ups so that more Compacts can be fit in, you can have more from around the world, and you can have Compacts that overlap thematically (like the Night Watch/Union or Ashwood/Hunt Club or Illuminated Brotherhood/Keepers of the Source or Habibti Ma/Talbot Group). It also would mean the groups that are neat worldbuilding but not really going to get played, like Deva Corp and Barret Commission, don't get full three page write ups.
A supplement could go into detail about some of them.

>>46935918
Conspiracies have heavy negative elements, but are also trying to justify it by saying it's for the greater good. Just like all of the monster social groups like Orders and Tribes. Hunter's theme is "those who fight monsters must take care lest they become a monster themselves".

>>46935951
The Abbey doesn't do it to assert their pride. They do more reckless and exciting shit to get stories, because having a better story means you "win" the game. They don't care that the monsters are monsters. They care that they're secret (and therefore exclusive) and want to get in on that. That's one of the reasons why they're more fitting as an antagonist group. They don't uphold The Vigil. They Hunt for libertine pleasures, but they have no moral justification beyond that.

>>46936343
>>46936429
>For all their dorkiness, Net0 is fine
NetZero is the best Compact named after a shitty ISP.

>>46936592
>It seems like Invictus membership is suffering at least until you hit Elder, and even then you've built up so many oaths and have been through so much shit.
There's nothing about being low on the Invictus totem pole that can rightly be called "suffering". As the Invictus book again talks about at length, even being on the bottom of the Invictus is pretty fucking great compared to other vampires' lives. No crazy religions, no crazy rituals, no desperate hunger, no lack of connections or resources or assistance, no fetishizing of inhumanity.

Are you going to start off being in charge? No. But the Invictus is the equivalent of getting a white-collar job in corporate America nowadays. Even if you're just a middle of the road IT guy, your salary's pretty nice.

The Invictus is comfortable. It's human. It has rules, courtesies, infrastructure.

>>46936542

You're not supposed to feel "bad" but you're supposed to be "aware."

>>46936651
>The Invictus is comfortable. It's human. It has rules, courtesies, infrastructure.
You still get that breaking point when you join properly, though. Odd, I guess.

>>46935833
No one thinks that whiteness doesn't exist but is also a spooky conspiracy. Also, there are literal conspiracies in the world right now, and most of them are run by white people. The Camarilla and the Technocracy aren't real. The Koch brothers are. In fact, a real life conspiracy was recently brought to light with the Panama Papers. For a definition of "brought to light". But no one thinks that White isn't real. I'm not sure where you got that or why, but chances are I also don't want to know.

>>46935926
The Hunt Club is completely pointless in a world with the Abbey, and I hate that it exists. I hate the notion that Slashers work in groups and I hate the notion of a Slasher conspiracy. I also hate the Slasher template.

>>46936190
Cheiron should also probably be in the antagonist section as "Hunters not on a Vigil". Change none of the fluff, keep their Endowments, just put them in the Antagonist section. Don't even say something like "these aren't for PCs". Just... put them in the section of the book as an example of Hunters that have abandoned the concept of The Vigil and Hunt for reasons other than that.
Cheiron doesn't really seem to want to improve medical science except so far as they can patent and sell things.

>>46936697
>You still get that breaking point when you join properly, though. Odd, I guess.
I wouldn't read anything into that. Vampire's breaking points are retarded and contradictory.

>>46936725
nah fuck you slashers and clasher cults are cool. I just hate that The Hunt Club is even considered a compact

>>46936725
>hate the slasher template

Whoa whoa, why? It is fun. From day one of hunter, other humans were on the possible enemy list, with the idea that hunters eventually become as dangerous as any monster.

Not only does it make sense in universe, it also covers a useful trope for a 'horror' game world.

>>46936725
>I also hate the Slasher template

What's your beef with having cinematic serial killers in a setting that largely riffs off of horror movies? I'd be upset if we couldn't have Jason Voorhes.

>>46936725
Rory, fuck off. We've had this conversation more times than any of us care to count. We get it, you don't think a vigil is a vigil unless you're murdering monsters for the "right reasons", few people agree with you so stop bringing it up.

>>46936592
Oh no. You have to be at the bottom of the totem pole and merely have a nice, comfy, cozy unlife hanging out with people that have an essentially human outlook and want human comforts just like you do, as opposed to The Commie Nazi Etc. Committee, The Magical Torture People Because ???? Alliance, The Other Magical Torture People Because ???? Alliance, or Yet Another Magical Torture People Because ???? Alliance.

The sane, reasonable element of the Invictus cannot be overstated at all.

>the shittiest parts of humanity

Really, you don't think The Commie Nazi Committee and the various Magical Torture People Committee all have elements that could be considered "the shittiest parts of humanity?"

The Invictus has one flaw, their ambitions are very normal, healthy, and reasonable. They don't magically corrupt churches into prostitute houses like the Lancea Sanctum, they don't fucking kill children as part of a wedding ceremony, they don't do Auschwitz Doctor experiments that appear only tangentially related to obtaining the Coils. Carthians "can" be okay but they're big on violent overthrow and though they have a lot of ideologies it all tends to wind up having the format of:

"Real xyz has never been tried!"

>mass violence and humanity loss ensues

I wouldn't say the Invictus are the good guys, but they are the only group that knows that high humanity is good and how to preserve it.

>>46936783
But don't you know? Rory's opinion is objective, not subjective. If you don't agree with him you're wrong. So very wrong.

>>46936635

>not a he

Ah yeah trans, whatever.

>explicitly started a discussion

Okay, that's good, and progress. Developers can say their product should be taken however they like, but like a chef the result is that which matters. If Bailey leaves them in, then Bailey has only Bailey to blame as far as not having a leg to stand on as far as hunters being "good."

Bailey needs to radically reinterpret the hunter groups before anyone's going to take Bailey's good guy hunter nonsense seriously. And I'm glad Bailey is taking steps towards that goal.

>>46936783
>>46936725
Yeah Rory, shut your butt!

The Invictus definitely aren't the good guys. They're not motivated by morality. They're motivated by enlightened self-interest. As the closest thing vampires have to government, as the covenant most often invested in human society for power, the Invictus benefits from not rocking the boat. No one wins if people are flipping out in the streets, risking the Masquerade, breaking out into Discipline-fueled death combat, etc., etc.

So they strictly enforce decorum. Be polite. Be inoffensive, and channel anger and the desire to hurt into indirect paths that don't trigger the lizard brain and put people into fight-or-flight.

The Invictus is evil. But it's lawful evil. It doesn't get its kicks skinning puppies and kittens, it gets its kicks being in charge and catering to its wants and needs.

It's a very safe evil, in other words. A steady evil.

>>46936790

The Invictus isn't usually overtly evil, but joining it is kinda like signing up for an internship for the next century in the hopes that it'll get your foot in the door. It also has zero to offer those who aren't motivated by wealth and prestige and stacks the deck severely against the asocial.

And don't give the Lance or the Circle too bad of a rap; they're just as much religious support groups as they are anything more overtly sinister. Getting told "it's okay to be the monster you are now" is a comforting prospect for the freshly Embraced, as is "God still has a plan for you."

>>46936825

Monica is leading up Hunter 2e you colossal fuck. If you can't be bothered to know even the most surface details of the game you seem to be preaching the absolute gospel of, maybe you should stop posting for a second.

>>46936725
>No one thinks that whiteness doesn't exist but is also a spooky conspiracy.

Yes. They do. Or more specifically, that whiteness IS the spooky conspiracy. Ergo, they don't believe white people are a race that exists, but the perception that white people exist is catastrophically harmful to all.

>>46936783
To this day Rory is still genuinely disgusted and offended that his parents took away his videogames when he wouldn't listen to them. He's not going to let go of this either. His sense of JUSTICE won't allow it.

>>46936019
Most people when asked about Haliburton or Raytheon will just go "huh?" unfortunately.

>>46936055
You can also theoretically play a good game of FATAL, but it's still a That Guy system. Sure, any RPG can have bad players, but some games and some groups encourage bad players to play them. The Abbey is one of those groups because their whole schtick is "let's rape a vampire" or if you're one of the people who argues that they aren't rapists and there's nothing that implies nonconsent in their write up, the kind of player that wants to jerk off on a Werewolf's Locus.

>>46936357
Yeah. The ideal Hunter is someone who doesn't really kill just to kill, they hunt monsters because monsters hunt people.

>>46936612
>What sort of convoluted mental gymnastics does it take to have your POV?
Because they're the one writing the fucking book. Their vision is the one that wins out.
>>46936825
>Ah yeah trans, whatever.
No, as far as I'm aware, Monica has identified as a woman all her life. I don't know why you thought Rose Bailey was the one running Hunter She's not, and if I'm aware had to hand off development of something or other to get Secrets of the Covenants out in a timely fashion.

Also, again, Hunter has always been about playing "good guys" in the sense that you are people upholding a monster hunter Vigil. That's what the subtitle means.

>>46936738
>>46936749
I like Slashers, just not the template. I stat my Slashers without it. Give a human some Physical Disciplines, a few Dread Powers, maybe a Rote or two from Mage.

>>46936306
>If you fall into the hands of Ashwood Abbey, you will probably be victimized and killed once they get bored with you. If you fall into the hands of the Cheiron Group, you will probably spend the rest of human history having parts of you chopped off or extracted and allowed to regenerate so they can be chopped off again.
This is why Cheiron are also antagonists.
>Finally, insisting on hunter groups being good guys rather blows away the point of Cells, which are a way to keep your morality and sanity intact at the cost of power and loneliness.
Since I've gotten into this argument with people before, I feel like you're missing the point of the argument. It's not that people want Hunters to be "good guys" as in shining beacons of moral clarity. They want Hunters to be people who whether they're right or not at the end of the day can legitimately say that they do what they do to help people. And whether they're really just like Batman/Daredevil and fight crime because it's an excuse to punch things or not, they at least have that justification. They do what they do BECAUSE punishing the wicked is a morally acceptable way to act out their aggressions.

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>>46936955
Groups like Cheiron and The Abbey don't have that. Their goal isn't "to protect the innocent from those horrid Things". Their goal is to have fun, to enjoy themselves. Often times they do horrible things for unethical reasons like profit or pleasure. Motivation is an important thing to Hunter's themes. Whether you can look yourself in the mirror and justify the things you do is definitely the kind of thing that Hunter is for.
Dean Winchester shooting the Kitsune Sam was in love with because she killed men to save her son is not a moral and righteous thing to do. It's a murky and gross thing, because he'd do more if it was to save Sammy. But he can justify it because he didn't do it to enjoy the act (even though Dean clearly enjoys killing monsters), he did it because he could say that he was putting down a murdering monster.

>>46936783
>>46936822
Plenty of people agree. That's why they fucking lead developer was asking the damned question in the first place. For fucks sake it's a view that's repeatedly shown in the fucking book itself. That is literally what "The Vigil" means. It's on the back of the fucking book.
Just because you don't like me doesn't mean I don't get to weigh in on the fucking subject.

>>46936992
You inflate the number of people who agree while downplaying those who bother to respond to your stubbornly held opinion. A vigil is a vigil whether you're actively killing monsters or providing support. The greater cheiron company? It's a company, it's not a hunter, it has no morality, no sense of vigil nor right and wrong. The people that make it up? They're hunters, they take monsters off the streets and even if you disagree with their reasons, they still hold a vigil against monsters.

>>46936862
>but joining it is kinda like signing up for an internship for the next century

They are at the bottom of a hierarchy. That's it. Their unlives still rock and are extremely luxurious, and they are treated with respect, and their place has a discrete purpose: maintaining everyone's (un)lives and humanity and existences. And guess what? It turns out that having hordes of ultrapowerful elders maintaining their humanity is even better for mortals.

They may not be very good, but they know that good stuff is good and bad stuff is bad. That is beyond the fucking comprehension of most groups. Seriously.

>And don't give the Lance or the Circle too bad of a rap;

The Circle of the Crone has, as its default form of a wedding celebration, THE MURDER OF A HUMAN CHILD. THEY MURDER CHILDREN IN PLACE OF A WEDDING CAKE. Even the Sabbat didn't, afaik, have an ultra commonplace ritae that specifically calls for the murder of children.

For LS I'm withholding judgment as there's a slim possibility they may not may be as messed up. I don't expect them to not be vicious to mortals for the sake of viciousness, but I do expect them to not be totally cross purpose like killing monks for jerkin off and not cast greed spells on churches to turn them into prostitution dens and such. The Roman take on the LS was my personal favorite.

>>46936844

>lawful evil

Can we not D&D alignment in what isn't even a D&D thread?

>>46936889
>you seem to be preaching the absolute gospel of

I'm definitely not preaching the "absolute gospel" of Hunter, sorry. And good for Monica.

>>46936927
>Their vision is the one that wins out.

Inasmuch as a chef's dish will be taken as intended, which depends on the skill of the chef. We will see.

>>46936992
All that says is that they dont ignore that monsters exist and step out of their comfort zone. Thats exactly what AA and Cheiron do.

Coming back to a topic earlier in the thread, are Compacts really that unpopular?

I always preferred them and like 90% of thr canon ones.

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>>46937027
>>46937141
Look, one of the themes of Hunter is that you are ostensibly protecting the innocent. That is the Vigil. That is what the game tells you is the proper way to be a Hunter, and litters the text with little asides that should fill you with doubt that you're any different than the monsters you hunt. And when their primary goal ISN'T to protect the innocent, they really are no better than the things they hunt.

Despite what people think, I'm not saying that Hunters should all be good guys in the sense that they're shining paragons of virtue armed with moral clarity. But they should be like Batman or Daredevil or The Punisher or other vigilante heroes, because that's what Hunters are. They're vigilantes. Even The Punisher is a Hunter and not a Slasher. Even Daredevil, who clearly just enjoys punching people. That's what *the player character* Hunters should be. Not the only Hunters, not all Hunters period. But that's the "correct" way to be a Hunter in the game's worldview.

Groups that Hunt solely for the joy of it, who don't even try to justify their actions or--at the Org level--don't bother making moral decisions about which monsters are more deserving of Hunting than others, those are Hunters who aren't on a Vigil and should be put in the Antagonist section as an example of what Hunters in setting try to tell themselves that they aren't.

Batman and The Joker are both dangerous, violent criminals. But one justifies it by telling himself that he's doing good in the world and the other just wants to see the world burn.

>>46937148
they are cool but I wish there was more of a gameplay bonus for joining them. Endowments are just too god damn cool/useful

>>46937148
Null Mysteriis is my wife <3. And in my current hunter game no one's in a compact or conspiracy but our conversations about which we'd actually join are pretty firmly tilted towards the Union, the Loyalists, Null Mysteriis or Cheiron Group for plot reasons.
Compacts are pretty big.

>>46937158
Cheiron are still protecting the innocent by removing dangerous monsters off the streets and keeping them locked up even if they are a slightly less evil version of Umbrella.

>>46936955
I really find Batman an insipid comparison. Yes, he fights crime because he wants to. Oh no. He also attempts to work with cops, and also doesn't kill people, partly because of morals, partly because of hangups, and partly because, oh yeah, by becoming a criminal it would blur the line between him and the criminals.

>They do what they do BECAUSE punishing the wicked is a morally acceptable way to act out their aggressions.

Exactly, which is why Ashwood Abbey fits perfectly with Vigil. At a minimum, I think they fit better than the MM (stooges of a monster who sling spells at people for slinging spells), Lucifuge (monsters that summon monsters that are stooges of other monsters and show they're different from other monsters by slinging spells at humans who sling spells, and so forth. They just abide a Vigil which is a little more honest than average.

All that said, the Vigil is about killing or at least aggressing upon monsters. Helping people is wholly optional for the vast majority of compacts and conspiracies.

Even Slashers are literally hunters too, or implied to mechanically be so (they appear to have Tactics and thus have to have some way of generating Practical XP, right?).

If Hunter 2e is to be about good guys for a change, more power to the dev. And GOOD FUCKING LUCK.

>>46937161

Endowments are too flashy to fit what I want out if Hunter, personally

And Mystery Cult Initiations for each Compact are a decent enough benefit.

>>46937203
Endowments dont need to be flashy. I liked when they added endowments to other groups. Like Union with Friends and Neighbours.
Or Ashwood Abbey setting elaborate traps in the disguise of a party.

>>46937148
Hunter's system is pretty weird. It's hard to justify cross-Org play, and I never want to play or run a Compact game. I could see myself running Lucifuge or TF:V, and I even want to run that Suicide Squad thing, but if my players aren't powered, I tend to just want them to be people off the street.

Then again, my "Hunter" plans tend to overlap with "Mortals+" plans. I don't really consider them much different. Most of the time it ends up being a sort of Hunter-lite template where there's Willpower Risking but no Tactics.

>>46937184
And the Ashwood Abbey is still potentially protecting people by murdering vampires and werewolves. But they're doing it by torturing and skinning them or drinking their blood, then killing them before they can retaliate. Plus, neither Org cares if they're doing what they do to dangerous monsters.

>>46937220
I hated those. They're not really Endowments. They don't Endow you with anything. They're just merits.

>>46937199
>All that said, the Vigil is about killing or at least aggressing upon monsters

Show me how Network Zero and Null Mysteriis fit this?

>>46937158
No, that's not actually how that necessarily works. Some hunters hold their vigil due to a desire to remove the monsters from society, not to protect others. Some do it because they've got violent impulses and they feel like monsters are fair game. Some do it because they have a burning desire to learn about this secret world. Just because they don't fit the archetype /you/ prefer, doesn't mean they aren't still on a fucking vigil. The vigil part is, in a few words; Standing up against the supernatural.

>>46937148

I can't escape the feeling that most (core anyway, not too familiar with the others) Compacts are jokes first and foremost. I never got the impression they were treated with respect at all; mechanically they're afterthoughts and fluffwise they seem to be "lets point and laugh at them."

That's why I somewhat like Ashwood Abbey (or tolerate it), as they're a joke and an afterthought like the other Compacts, but they're laughing too.

>>46937233
>But they're doing it by torturing and skinning them or drinking their blood, then killing them before they can retaliate.
Good fuck em. I dont see how this is a problem. As long as the thing is dead.

>>46937259

You can't say Habibti Ma isn't badass.

>>46937199
>He also attempts to work with cops, and also doesn't kill people, partly because of morals, partly because of hangups, and partly because, oh yeah, by becoming a criminal it would blur the line between him and the criminals.
Let's be fair, here: the only reason Batman doesn't kill people is that his superpower is otherwise lethal damage never kills his victims.

>Cell - indivdual threads
>Compact - eternal generals
>Conspiracy - board

And nobody likes generals because they're just insular circlejerks that fill up the front page

>>46937233
>I hated those. They're not really Endowments. They don't Endow you with anything. They're just merits.
I get what you mean. They are less about super weapons or quasi magical powers as they are unique gameplay mechanics and bonuses gained from being a part of them. It still qualifies imo

>>46937158

Batman generally not only works with the police but is ASKED to intervene by the police, and when he tries to fuck off people usually nag him to come back to work.

Also, I'd have an entirely different opinion on Hunter if nonlethal hunters were more of a phenomenon than a joke.

>>46937199
Batman is the perfect comparison, though. For all the reasons you listed (though point of fact, he is a criminal).

And again, the the difference is intent. The Abbey do what they do without justifications. Whether it's "more honest" or not isn't the point. In fact, that it's more honest is WHY they're not on a Vigil. They abandoned the Vigil to hunt for the thrill of it without lying to themselves, but lying to yourself is how you keep from becoming a monster. The Abbey really are Slashers for the most part, in that they kill for sport and enjoyment.
The Lucifuge and even the Malleus are doing what they do specifically for good reasons, even if Baudolino also wants to live for ever. The Lucifuge's entire schtick is that they're all bastards and want to stop Satan. The Lady sends hit squads after you if she finds out you're being a shithead.

>All that said, the Vigil is about killing or at least aggressing upon monsters. Helping people is wholly optional for the vast majority of compacts and conspiracies.
*Hunting* is all about aggressing upon monsters. The Vigil is about helping people. That's why Cheiron and the Abbey stand out.

Hunter was always about playing the good guys, or at least guys who try to tell themselves they're good. That's what the book repeatedly says. They very clearly want the characters to see themselves as justified. That's why questions of morality are raised throughout.

>>46937158
And there you go again with the "correct" way to do things. Because your opinion is the right way to do things. Yep.

>>46937333
>This is the correct way to play this freeform RPG where the only thing stopping you is your imagination

>>46937246
All PXP is generated through encounters with the potential for aggression, is what I mean. That is the only line of what Hunter is and isn't that I can abide, none of this "you're the good guys" utter garbage, because if you don't get PXP, you basically can't participate in the game.

So whatever the minimum level for PXP generation (which, again, is as far as I know an encounter with the potential for aggression), that level of tension and up is what I would say the Vigil is fundamentally about and that anything not contained within that extended system cannot be considered to be "what Hunter is all about."

>>46937247
Even the Long Night only wants to remove the monsters from society because they feel that even healer Mages are pawns of evil.

The Hunters who just want to kill something and feel they can get away with killing vampires and shit are also... the exact kind of thing I'm talking about. They're Hunters, but not on a Vigil. They're not taking up the candle and going out in the darkness to fight back against the supernatural, they're killing people they can get away with killing.

Do I need to start quoting sections of the book that agree with my opinion?

>>46937291
That explains Dark Knight Returns.
I don't care if you're using "rubber bullets", shooting people with a fucking tank point blank is going to murder the fuck out of them.

>>46937366
>"rubber bullets"
theres a reason they are called Less Lethal and not Non Lethal

>>46937366
You understand the book has as many sections that support my view as yours?

>Hunter is shit and kind of pointless

There, argument over. Can we please talk about something else.

>>46937307
Fine, go with Daredevil, then. Just because the Batman writers have a dumb setting doesn't mean he's not still a madman in a mask beating the shit out of people because stopping crime lets him beat the shit out of people and feel morally justified.

Although currently Batman is Jim Gordon with a mech suit.

>>46937333
I put "correct" in quotes for a reason. There is a "correct" way to play most games. Perhaps "intended" will trigger you less?
The game the way the game is intended to be played. It's the worldview the game itself gives.

>>46937355
"Potential for aggression" isn't Aggression. Practical XP is pretty much gotten the same way as Arcane XP. By poking around and learning about the Supernatural. Also, that's... not really what the game is about?
You can still be a Hunter and never use your Tactics. That doesn't mean you're not a Hunter. I feel like you've also missed the point of my argument, which has little to do with the mechanics and everything to do with the themes.

>>46937421
Well start showing me quotes then.

>>46937428
Hunter is great and your opinion is worthless.

>>46937428
If we don't constantly talk about hunter, someone will talk about stupid oWoD stuff. I'd rather this than that.

If you're going to incessantly shitpost about the "right" way to play a game, at least have the decency to pick one nobody gives a shit about.

God damn.

>>46937448
Or someone will argue that WoD sucks because Mage is the only right group and they know everything and the other supernaturals are all their pets.

>>46937479
I'm not shitposting. It literally is the worldview that the game intends you to have. This thread is about to autosage in two posts, so fuck it, time to go through the book for quotes like I did when the guy argued Hunters aren't mortals.

>>46937503
"Game intends you to have"
You're already wrong. This isn't how good TTRPGs work you weaboo pervert.

>>46937503

There are multiple ways to play each game and nobody cares which one you think is right. Please talk about literally anything else.

>>46937522
A million times this.

>Brujah all have to be angry communists who just want to viva revolution
>But cant I not do that?
>No! The stereotype in the book says thats what you have to be!

>>46937515
>>46937530
>>46937522
Just because you can play a game in any way that you want doesn't mean that the game doesn't lay itself out as something different. I can play Vampire as a game about dark blood drinking superheroes, but that's not the game that it wants to be.

It's not wrong to argue that you can play that game, but it is wrong to argue that the game is meant to be played that way.

>>46937552
Sure, strawman. Apparently that's what we're down to.

>>46937553
Your INTERPRETATION of the game says that's how it's laid out. Stop acting like you're right all the fucking time you insufferable prick.

>>46937553

You have a thread full of people disagreeing with you, which either means they read a different book than you or maybe - just maybe! - there isn't One True Way.

Please drop this next thread. You're just repeating yourself and talking in circles.

>>46937553
The difference is that (as far as I amaware of) there are no Vampire clans in old or new world of darkness that basically lets you be blood drinking Batman.
In Hunter there are official and explicitly stated hunter groups that either Dont care about humanity or that humanity is even expendable in the grand scheme of things.

>>46937553

I don't mean this as an insult, but you sound like you probably have autism.

>>46937553
That's not what you're arguing. You're arguing that there's a "right" way to play and that that's /your/ way and that that's what the book says so it MUST be right. Shit like this is why even /erpg/ thinks you're fucking insufferable.

>>46937599
He definitely has autism. Check out Rory regarding his mom:
[23:09] Hayley Hayden: She's better now, I'll say that. Can you imagine me, all argumentative and obsessed with ~justice~ reacting well to being told that my SNES (which only had like four games) was being taken away, or the power was being turned off, because I didn't do a [thing]?
[23:11] Hayley Hayden: She'd stand in front of the utility room and keep me from reaching the power, and sometimes ten year old me would end up wrestling with this overweight middle aged woman who was okay with hair pulling or sitting on people.
[23:12] Hayley Hayden: I got better at stealing and hiding the fact that the power was on--and at one point I mastered climbing out the bedroom window to--I think?--go to the utility room, turn the power on, and then use the power.

>>46937318
>(though point of fact, he is a criminal).

Nebulous area. Generally everyone breaks laws but it is up to the police to decide whether the cost:benefit ratio to society is worth enforcing it as well; many laws simply die because no cops chose to enforce it. Similarly, he is a man the police VERY frequently depend on.

>without justification

They want what we all want; pleasure, belonging, and so forth. Like all bad acts, they are good intentions paved with bad means. And their Vigil contains all the elements of anyone else's.

I don't find most conspiracies to have one hair's width of moral superiority over theirs -- the conspiracy I find most offensive is the Lucifuge due to "serve us or die!" because they kill actual, honest to God people for disagreeing with them, all the fucking time, as a normal part of their MO. Assuming people with a trace of Satan DNA are people, anyway (if Lucifuge are monsters then its a moot point).

And if you're going to pretend to have some sort of moral element in a game about people-vs-monsters, then killing people as a normal thing rather breaks that in two.

>specifically for good reasons

man, "endless murder to obtain servants for a monster" and "endless murder to obtain vitae for a monster" aren't things I find respectable.

That's the problem with this hunters are the good guys etc, you add in abogus dimension that makes everyone else suddenly awkward and shaky as fuck. If Ashwood Abbey is out because of moral reasons, then you had better radically, and I do mean RADICALLY change almost all the other conspiracies.

>They... want the characters to see themselves as justified

I have no doubts Ashwood Abbey's perspective is as easy to justify as most of the Conspiracies.
Ashwood Abbey just distills Hunter down to its core element, which is not good vs bad, but "I am a human being, and you are a thing, an object. And anything I choose to do to you, I can."

Hunter is about Power, on a far more fundamental level.

>>46937585
>>46937576
I'm not saying there's a One True Way. I'm saying that the book has an expectation of what kind of game you'll be playing. The author has intentions. Hunter very clearly doesn't expect you to use the book to play supernatural monster characters. That's a thing that you can do, but it's not what is *intended*. It's something I plan to do one day, so I'm clearly not against using a game in a way that it wasn't made for, but I also understand that my off the wall and very different style of game is not the kind of thing the developers had in mind.

I'm sorry that the notion that roleplaying games were made with specific things in mind is triggering to you, but it's true. Some devs will argue that because a game was intended to be played with something in mind, that it's the ONLY way to play it (CthulhuTech). But that's not what I'm saying.

Also holy fuck why am I arguing about this? That's not even the point I was making in the first place. This is a tangent because I said something you didn't agree with. You're not even arguing my original point, you're pulling us into this side argument. So let's just start over.

>Hunter has themes.
>Some things are in theme, some things are not

>>46937615
Holy fuck could you stop being a fucking stalker?

>>46937657

I am begging you to stop posting.

>>46937657
When you say that it's something you plan to do, do you mean that it's something where you'll ask people if they want to play and then never ever run no matter what?

>>46937684
I cannot believe I'm agreeing with Atamajakki.

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>>46937707

>>46937433
>dumb setting
I hardly enjoy comic book settings, but I don't find it to be remotely dumb that cops want The Ubermensch to help them.

Also, I have to question the idea that he's a "madman." If Batman, who punches people, blows your mind, then I have an edgy anti hero for you: how about Sailor Moon? She doesn't just punch people, she blows them the fuck up. Why? Because a fucking cat told her to do it. Wooo!

Seriously though. There are a million levels of sin in the world. "Having a good time" isn't on the list at all. He channels his psychological issues into a healthy and positive course, and whenever he stops, he is incessantly nagged by friends, the cops, etcetera to get back to work.

An Id or a Shadow is something absolutely everyone has. The Joker is correct in some sense when he describes how there's a bit of him in everyone, but that doesn't make us "crazy." That's the human condition.

Batman villains are usually, and basically, Id or Shadow driven (yes I know the two terms have rather different meanings) caricatures of themselves. Everyone has 'em, though. Its what gives us passion. Batman channels his passion into positive things; there's very little objectionable in Batman that you can't find objectionable in any action oriented protagonist.

Can next thread be "nobody talk about Hunter" edition?