Horus Heresy General

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>>46406447
The Death guard are Zones Mortalis specialists. It kinda overlaps with the sieges the IW do but that's mainly because sieges are dangerous things themselves.
Dusk Raiders however, well, as long as the enemy was killed, a raid is successful

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>>46406447
I want to see more tragic brothers

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mmmmm ay gurl u a gud lookin battle barge...

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>>46406676
>You heard, brother Fistus? Our new commander is brother Alexis Pollux!
>Lit. who?

>>46406639
Did Morty ever put a stop to the night time assaults? He could have used it to go with the whole death on top of death theme he had going on.

Looking at Alpha Legion and their rules, they seem to have a lot of anti-infantry stuff. What would be some good units to supplement for anti-armour? Sicaran Venators look nice, Vindicator Laser Destroyers have nice stats but not too fond of the Rhino hull. I know there are some possibilities to do infiltrating veterans with tank hunters, but it doesn't seem very reliable. Any chance of AL etched brass in the foreseeable future?

>>46406775

Rapier Laser Destroyers. Medusas?

>>46406775
>I know there are some possibilities to do infiltrating veterans with tank hunters, but it doesn't seem very reliable.
Infiltrating autocannons are solid. But they can't deal with a Spartan so there. But you have Saboteurs to deal with that.

>>46406749
Nah, simply the slaughter went from "Dusk" to "All day, all night erryday!"
I love his Exemplary battle, where he goes straight for the capital world and uses fireships before Autek made it cool

>>46406775
saboteur with a combi-melta

maybe a rapier battery?

>>46406775
>>46406810
>>46406824
Tank Hunter Rapier Laser Destroyers
Infiltrating Tank Hunter Saboteur with meltabomb and jump pack
Or steal the Tyrants/Fulmentarii
Or infiltrate something with combi-meltas

>>46406656
>Meduson on setting foot on Isstvan
You had one fucking good anthology to read and yet you fucked it up. Why am I not surprised.

>>46407424
Meduson is Alpharius

>>46408030
It's the other way around.

>>46406874

Saboteurs cant take jump packs anymore sempai

>>46406835
He also rams a hive city.

He has an actual ship designed to ram shit from space. That's the most 40k thing ever. And makes that Angry Marine comic even funnier.

>>46408396
Gotta love a good ramming.

Which one would you prefer as your boss: Mortarion or Perturabo?

>>46409004
Dorn, he would invite me to his BDSM sessions where I can humilliate him as thats his fetish.

>>46409004
Both are too bullshit, fuck it
If only I'm with Dantioch or Eisenstein

Certain SCs enables certain squads to be taken as a troop. Can such ability be used when filling out prerequisites for an Allied Detachment?
(Like, Sigismund makes Templars troop; Sigismund+Templars for 1HQ+1Troop requirement.)

>>46409004
id just cuck pert, ezpz.

pshhh, iron warriors my legion now, pert.

>>46409004
I'll take decimation over breathing in swampass fumes, thanks.

HQ: Zardu Layak with Blade Slaves – 275 points
Chaplain, Bike with Bolters, powerfist– 130 points

Elites: Gal Vorbak, 10x Brethren, 1X power sword, 2X power mauls, Artificer armour, meltabombs – 395 points
Gal Vorbak, 10x Brethren, 1X power sword, 2X power mauls, Artificer armour, meltabombs – 395 points
Mhara Gal Dreadnought – 305 points

Troops: Tactical marines, 20X marines, Vexilla, Artificer armour, Melta bombs– 275 points
Tactical marines, 20X marines, Vexilla, Artificer armour, Melta bombs– 275 points

Fast Attack: Legion Outrider Squad, 8X Outriders, 3X Power swords, Outrider Sergeant, 3X Melta bombs – 300 points

Heavy Support: Leviathan Siege Dreadnought, Siege claw, Storm Cannon, 2X TL Volkite Calivers, Armoured Ceramite – 310 points
Deredeo pattern dreadnought, Anvilus autocannons, TL heavy flamer, Aiolos Missile Launcher, Armoured Ceramite – 240 points

>>46409004
Morty, gotta love poison bro shots.

>>46409380
2900 is a weird point value, anon.

>>46409004

I think I'd have to say Perty. Yes, there are decimations and meatgrinders and all that jazz, but best case scenario under Morty is that you eventually get fucked up six ways 'til sunday with horrible warp plagues. I think long-war IW are pretty cool guys. Eh chill in the eye of terror and doesnt afraid of mutations.

>>46406775
I really like the idea of Headhunters.

Power daggers and banestrike rounds crap on infantry blobs.

What do you think about their special rite of war that makes them troops?

>>46410221
It makes your compulsory troop choices really pricey (~340 points each for 10 man squads), but it does look fun.

>>46410240
True, but that CAN be a bonus.

Marine blobs are so god damn expensive, money wise that it can be a good idea to go the route of expensive troop choices.

>>46410300

Meh, BaC makes blobs pretty affordable these days.

>>46410393

Depends.

>MKII is my favourite.

>>46410393
mkIV looks better on small elite units though

>>46410240
What would you give them for mutable tactics if you choose them and their rite of war?
Counter Attack and Scout sound pretty nice.

>>46410421
I'd probably go for Counter Attack, it makes them much more lethal if the enemy charges them, and combined with the power daggers they're certainly no slouch in CQC.

>>46410421
can they take meltabombs?

if they can id take tank hunter and have them infiltrate with tank hunter melta bombs. itll help fix the anti armor problem

>>46410401

It does, rather, but beggars can't be choosers.

>>46410402

I don't particularly agree. Some legions look more appropriate in earlier marks, certainly, but I feel that mkIV works well as a basic armour for most.

>>46410441
True that, but i dislike that i would have them exposed at the front as the others don't necessarily have inflitrate then.

How would you support them?

>>46410457
The prime can take melta bombs, they are mostly good against infantry with banestrike rounds and PE infnatry.

>>46410457
The Prime can, but not the entire squad.

>>46410477
They no longer have PE Infantry, the updated red book took that from them.

>>46410484
W....what?

Why would I ever take them then?

>>46410029
Apparently I goofed on the math. I'll up it to 3000.

>>46410508
No idea.

Look at Mor Deythan with envy.

>>46410477
>>46410480
shit

i dont know what youd do for anti tank then

>>46410402
wrong

Mk2 is terran veteran tier
Mk3 is crusade veteran tier
Mk4 is pre-heresy recruit tier
Mk5 is heresy tier
Mk6 is meme legion/raven guard tier
Mk7 is siege tier

F A C T S

>>46410508
1) They now have Combi-bolters as standard (so BS5 TL-banestrikes = default).
2) They can take combi-weapons, 7 points each.
3) They have Precision Shots, it's no PE, but it's something.

no change is cost.

>>46410514
I am saddened.

>>46410541

What do you think about it?

Was it worth the sacrifice?

practically makes them more shooty and only takes away their cc bonu from PE infantry, which makes sort of sense...

>>46410557
Not sure, the reduction in CC power is significant, but it emphasises their shooting prowess, I doubt it makes them useless, just a little more specialized.

>>46410574
I liked the idea of shooty guys with daggers wrecking face when forced into CC.

>>46410593
Yeah the mental images are pretty fucking cool.

>>46410593
Yeah, I have a soft spot for them too. I always worked a squad in to my AL list, and with the new models they're one of the core components I base the rest of my army around now. Style over substance, anon. If it looks cool and you like it it'd be a shame to powergame and ignore it altogether.

>>46410593
>shooty guys with daggers trying (and failing) to cut through one dude's slightly thicker armor when forced into CC*

>>46410627
power daggers have ap 3 and rend, even though its on str -1. thats pretty solid.

>>46410644
yeah, but when you need to roll 6's you're just going to get a bunch of 5's

I've studied diceology. That's just how the science works out.

>>46410658
They are meant to be employed against power armoured foes and they have become exceedingly good at it

>>46406447
Hey I don't know if these are worth looking at.

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-IE/Painting-Modelling?N=102306+4294967192&Nu=product.repositoryId&qty=12&sorting=phl&view=table&utm_campaign=35be41c85f-CW_2016_4_2_Godbeasts_EN_EU1&utm_source=GamesWorkshop.com&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_c6e14e39d2-35be41c85f-114069389&_requestid=8067100

It's up on the GW Webstore.

>>46410684
real shame it's the artificer armoured heresy

Is Honoured Telemechrus worth taking?

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>>46410689
That actually doesn't bother me at all. It's one of the aspects of 30k I really like.

Makes me feel like I'm operating in a time of legends, where I could give artificer to my sergeants.

>>46410750
On that note, hyper dick list:
Coils of the Hydra+Damocles Command Rhino+Landraider Proteus with Explorator Augury array and maybe even Alpharius.

Will fuck up people reliying on reservers so badly.

>>46410761
>"Aw man, I'll bring a deepstriking list against him! That'll show him that he can't hide from me!"

>>46410773

Would be funny and is actually also usefull for your guys, the damocles and the Proteus can be usefull to get your fliers on the table fast and savely.

>>46410750
yeah, I don't mind it. I just find it funny how marines: the marinesening has more 2+ than regular marines

>>46410814
>not playing superior Warp Cults/imperial Milita or Solar Auxilia.

>>46410831
>being a hipster

>>46410831
>>46410846
To be fair, Solar Auxillia is BITCHING.

As a matter of fact, the only thing that holds me back from going SA is that legions are a thing.

>>46410761
Coils+Skorr should be enough deterrent and flexible enough to completely switch out of that stratagem.

>>46410846
Jokes aside, what is hipster about those?

I just wish I was a better modeller with greenstuff so i could take Ogryns as Thunderwarriors in an IA army.

Survivors of the Dark age and maybe Warrior Elite as Provenances.

Could even use Veletaris Storm Sections in Dracosan as count as Proteus riding, power armour wearing Str 5 las guys.

>>46410887

Please elaborate.

>>46410901
>Jokes aside, what is hipster about those?
They're not marines? Seems pretty obvious.

>>46410933
Pfff!!!

While we're on the topic of Headhunters, could someone rip apart this Leviathal list because I'm usually an Iron Hand and relying on things that don't have an Armour Value confuses me.

Lords of War
-Alpharius (RoW: Headhunter Leviathal) – 415pts

HQ
-Centurion: Forge Lord, Scimatar Jetbike, Power Fist, Refractor Field, Cyber Familiar, Rad Grenades, Meltabombs – 190pts

Troops
-Headhunter Squad – 5x Combi-Plasma, Sergeant (Artificer) – 220pts

-Headhunter Squad – 5x Combi-Plasma, Sergeant (Artificer) – 220pts

-Headhunter Squad – 6 Headhunters, 6x Combi-Plasma, Sergeant (Artificer) – 252pts

Elites
-Lernaen Terminators – 4x Power Fist Harrower (Chainfist/Power Dagger) – 260pts

Fast Attack
-Jetbike Sky Hunter Squdron – 6 Jetbikes, Meltabombs, 2x Multi-Melta – 290pts

-Dreadclaw Drop Pod – 100pts

Heavy Support
-Vindicator Siege Tank Squadron – 2x Vindicators (Laser Destroyer Array/Machine Spirit) – 310pts

Total – 1997pts

Not a great list but probably the best I can come up with so far. Alpharius either just deploys as standard or hides in the 6-man Headhunter squad. I think you really need his Preferred Enemy now to make the list work, and preferably on the first turn. Lernaens go after the Warlord. The Centurion could be altered to free up points for more Hunters, but right now he’s a pretty good all-rounder to hang with the Jetbikes.

>>46410911
There's a Strategic Trait that Skorr can choose to give -1 on enemy reserve rolls.

You can switch it out to get +1 to Seize and rerolls on your own reserves. (+Coils first turn bonus)
Or to give 3 units infiltrate, and use mutable tactics to give your army scout.
Or go deeper and attach a vigilator to a unit for scout and cameleoline, and use mutable tactics for counterattack, tank hunters, or move through cover.

Taking the Coils restrictions into account, you can make an army that can switch between all those options depending on opponent/terrain setup/your mood.

Of course, you can still add to the reserve fuckery by adding a Proteus or Damocles but I figure you are already tricky enough and you don't want to dilute the hitting power of your list.

>>46410971
Good advice, thank you.

I am mostly writing some lists for fun right now and thinking about Alpharius in it too.

It is definetly a good idea to go for skorr.

>>46410991
PS:

How would you equip your AL sergeants?
Powerfist and Dagger sounds good, but is expensive.

I am almost tempted to only give him a Power Dagger.

>>46410971
Oh I forgot, a Vigilator can give move through cover as well. So Scout+infiltrate+mtc+tankhunters/counterattack can be added on to any unit you like. Could be a unit of Justaerin or Firedrakes. With or without transport.

>>46410991
Alpharius is great but he doesn't get to make quite as flexible a list as Skorr does. When Alpharius is there shit's going down, which makes sense in the fluff because he normally doesn't show himself.

Idk despite me not wanting to play Alpha Legion whatsoever I am slightly in love with all the tuning choices they can make before deployment. Very much captures the Alpha Legion style and that's great.

>>46411009
Yeah, the versatility and abillity to do whatever rite/tactics you want is great.

Doesn't lock you down on a specific choice and their colour scheme is also great.

>I wouldn't make them to metallic though.

HQ: Remus Ventanus – 155 points
Master of Signals – 85 points

Elites: Invictarus Suzerains, 10X Suzerains, 3X Thunderhammers – 370 points
Invictarus Suzerains, 10X Suzerains, 2X Thunderhammers – 355 points


Troops: Legion Tactical Squad, 20X Tactical marines, Vexilla – 260 points
Legion Tactical Squad, 20X Tactical marines, Vexilla – 260 points

Fast Attack: Locutarus Storm Squad, 10X Locutarus, Melta bombs – 290 points

Heavy Support: Legion Sicaran Battle Tank – 135 points
Legion Sicaran Venator – 190 points

Lord of War: Guilliman – 400 points

>>46406447
Is it possible to play a Knight army in HH? If so, which book do I need?

>>46411070
Man post your points limit.

>>46411115
>>46411070
Sorry. 2500 points.

>>46411070
Suzerains are troops with Rowboat in there.
Also: you need a plan for Rowboats USR.

>>46411109
Yes, Questoris Knight Crusade from book 4. Taken with some allies to provide solid scoring troops probably the only truly OP list you can get in 30k. Nobody really wants to go up against knights.

>>46411152
Shit, that's true. I forgot he made them troops. Also; USR?

>>46411164
Universal special rule.

Roboute can make one unit type have a special rule. You pick from a list. This includes implacable advance.

It's pretty huge. You should generally build around it since it can win you games.

>>46406810
>>46406824
>>46406844
>>46406874
Forgot about Rapiers, any point in trying the same with the graviton one? It looks cool. Saboteurs are Centurion consuls, right? Do they count towards mandatory HQ? Would probably be a bad idea to stick my warlord in the enemy backline, though.

Don't really want to steal units, would prefer doing Alpha Legion specials at first. I got the Alpha boxdread earlier today as it was being dicontinued so was curious about how to play them. I have droves of spare marines laying around so making a basic force is very doable.

>>46410221
>>46410240

It's a cool rite on paper but the drawbacks seem a little excessive. Would be fun to try but seems very hit or miss. Power daggers are great. Probably better to have a couple Headhunters with some other force.

>>46411152
Thanks, now I see the article on 1d4chan.

Just one question, because the explanation there is a bit unclear. If I ally in two knights to another army, do the knights get to benefit from the Household ranks?

>>46411237
A good idea. I'll re-list.

>>46411246
If you use an allied detachment of Questoris knights, yes. If you bring them in as LoW choices for Mechanicum etc then no.

>>46411264
Perfect, thanks. Guess I'll do a proper Mechanicum + allied Questoris Knights for my army.

>>46411278
Bear in mind that in 30k you need a minimum of two Knights for an allied detachment, rather than just one as in 40k.

so looking in the red book, is there anything stopping me from running Dynat and a RoW? looking at him RAW the harrowing is not noted as a Rite of war unless I'b blind...

>>46411285
My group plays at 2-2.5k points, so two knights should fit in pretty well.

I want an Atrapos just because it looks nice, and as a bonus it seems extremely effective. I was thinking a Lancer for the second, but I'm if anyone has a suggestion I'm open to it.

>>46411322
Does he have master of the legion in his special rules?

>>46411322
Yes, the existence of Skorr and possibly Alpharius. I for one would never be able to take Dynat over either of those. Though his model is awesome.

>>46411362
A Lancer is always a good choice for making your Senschal thanks to its Invuln working in combat. It's probably one of the better choices unless you were looking to save points, though your Mechanicum will probably have to become more anti-infantry focused to compensate for the pair of Knights.

>>46411362
I am honestly not sure about the legality of the Atropos.

You can take one for every 2000 pts in a Questoris army.
Does this mean Questoris have to be your primary detachment?
Does this mean you need 2000 pts of knights to take one?
Or does it mean you can take an allied detachment with two of them at, say, 2250 pts.
Or does it simply mean you can take one at 2k+, 2 at 4k+, etc.

It is seriously powerful, wouldn't want to run into that guy who has a Mechanicum army + Atropos LoW + 2 allied Atropos.

>>46411453
It's worded like the Legion Preator, so it's 1 per [bracket of points] unless there has been a clarification otherwise.

So from 0 to 2000 points one Atrapos, from 2001 to 4000 it's 2, etc.

As for what is allowed, I'm pretty sure it's based on your army's total points, not individual groups within. So 2k of allied Mechanicum and Knights would let you have 1 Atrapos, but just that one.

if someone knows better do chip in, because I'm just going off my memory/similarities.

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>>46411445
HARD FOR LANCER

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>>46411577
HARD

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>>46411587
FOR

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>>46411597
LANCESSSSSSSSSSSS

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>>46411607
Atrapos cool too

>>46411607
All that build up and then you spell it wrong...

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>>46406447
Oh fickle dwellers of the Horus Heresy General.

I want an army that's painted white.

Now, should I go White Scars, or Death Guard?

I can't make my mind up.

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>>46411701
Luna Wolves

>>46411701
Death Guard are more grey.
World Eaters are white.
Luna Wolves are white.

If the choice is DG or Scars though, I'd go DG.

FW should just make "build your own knight" thing where you can choose the hull, arms, carapace weapon and shoulder gun. Maybe not all, but a selection of weapons to pic from.

I'd love to have some of those FW tall knight weapons for regular knights and tall knights with regular knight weapons.

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>>46411701
The best white legion

>>46411719
>>46411719
>>46411744
Eh it has to be those two. I don't like any other white legion.

>>46411765
I don't think I've ever seen a Scars player do that one

>>46411673
I just said I had a boner for lances in general

>>46406775
Man nothing against you...but why the fuck does everyone do AL armies :S

>>46411845
/tg/'s official meme legion.
Despite everything you can say about their fluff, their rules are cool and their colourscheme is pretty sweet.

Which legion had other detachments of other legions hanging out with them a lot? My money's on Sallies.

>>46412236
SoH

>>46412236
Do you mean fluff or crunch?

In crunch it's Salamanders.

>>46412279
They were my second guess.
>>46412279
I meant both.

>>46412236
Salamanders were actually the other way around for a long time pre-Vulkan, bunches of them got seconded to other legions to act as heavy infantry and it was rare for the XVIII Legion to fight as a unit.

>>46413149

Well that doesn't feel right at all. Guess I'll have to headcanon another thing away.

Solar Auxilia

Lord Marshal w/ Artificer Armour, Archaeotech Pistol, Iron Halo, and Cyber Familiar: 140 Points
Tank Commander: 55 Points (Preferred Enemy (Infantry))
Tank Commander: 55 Points (Preferred Enemy (Infantry))

Honour Guard w/ Charnabal Sabre, Needle Pistol, and Shroud Bombs: 150 Points
Honour Guard w/ Charnabal Sabre, Needle Pistol, and Shroud Bombs: 150 Points

Velatris Storm Section w/ Charnabal Sabre, Needle Pistol, and Shroud Bombs: 150 Points
Velatris Storm Section w/ Charnabal Sabre, Needle Pistol, and Shroud Bombs: 150 Points
Velatris Storm Section w/ Charnabal Sabre, Needle Pistol, and Shroud Bombs: 150 Points
Velatris Storm Section w/ Charnabal Sabre, Needle Pistol, and Shroud Bombs: 150 Points

Primaris Lightning Strike Fighter w/ Battle Servitor, Ground Tracking, 4 Kraken Missiles, and a Twin-Linked Autocannon: 230 Points
Primaris Lightning Strike Fighter w/ Battle Servitor, Ground Tracking, 4 Kraken Missiles, and a Twin-Linked Autocannon: 230 Points

Leman Russ Incinerators w/ Hull and Pintle Multilasers: 195 Points
Leman Russ Incinerators w/ Hull and Pintle Multilasers: 195 Points

2000 Points

>>46411875
I guess thats true

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I've noticed that SW Iron Priest models all have thunder hammers instead of power axes. Is this something they're known for or what? Working on a Praevian conversion and wanted to give him a close combat weapon. Was gonna go for a typical axe for that techmarine look, but then remembered that iron priests are shown with hammers and now I'm torn between the two.

He's going to be looking after some vorax automatas.

>>46409380
If you have 8 Outriders find points for 9 and get another power weapons, otherwise cut the squad down to 6.

>>46409380
Pretty sure if you buy melta bombs for the outrider squad, it's all or nothing. Only the sergeant can get bombs on his own.

>>46410539

The reason he (and I) equate Mk IV to elite legions is due to Horus's requisitioning of the Mk IV to his own legions, and how the artwork shows the "recruits" more often than the Mk III clad veterans when showing off Mk IV for obvious reasons.

Coupled with the fact that 40k players recognize Mk IV as an ancient, "elite" mark of armor that's associated with chapters like Red Scorpions and Minotaurs, as well as M41 "veterans". In 40k Mk VII is recruit tier and Mk IV is Honor Guard tier.

There's also the constant reminder that Mk IV was the most advanced and "best" mark until VI and VII.

>>46409380
Zardu is great but with his blade slaves he can't join another unit so won't last long, consider dropping the slaves and having him join the Gal Vorbak.

chaplain doesn't get an invulnerable save as standard, also give him another power weapon instead of a fist for +1 attack. I'd go for an axe and either a sword or maul.

unless the board is huge it may be difficult to keep all those Gal Vorbak away from the Mhara Gal unless you enjoy getting S5 AP2 hits all the time.

You have melta bombs and artificer armour in the tac squads but no CCWs which is weird, find points for a power axe and extra ccws on the guys

I said here >>46413853 but also the whole squad has to take melta bombs, not just as many guys as you want.

Leviathans are over priced but I'm not going to argue since you want to use it and they are very cool and Deredeos are very good. One thing i would say is that you have the heavy flamers on the wrong dread, keep the stock nipple guns on each dread.

All these changes give you about another 30 points to play with and keep the list pretty much the same.

>>46412236
Alpha Legion. In secret ofc.

>>46414230
Did anyone even like Aloharius? I know he campaigned with El'Johnson and Ferrus once without incident, Curze hated him, Magnus disliked him, and he did make Papa Sang stressed out once I think.

>>46414230
I liked AL more when they were the cultists dudes back in 3rd/4th. The current thing of them infiltrating everyone, having plans in play everywhere (which never, ever fail) and being able to affect everything is stupid. They're massive mary sues now, and thus really, really boring.

>>46414279
>Aloharius
well, the coconuts going off like melta bombs probably didn't make any friends...

>>46414067
Depends. In some fluff MkII is considered the best, but it was difficult to manufacture and especially maintain, which is why the MkIV switched to a simpler design with solid plates and all.

I think it'd make very much sense for basic troops to have MkIVs while more veteran troops kept their less bulky MkIIs and assault troops the MkIIIs.

MkVI, at least the version available during the Heresy, wasn't the best quality one. It lacked armour and many legions would have seen it fail, which is why it was dropped on the RG. It used MkV style stuff (chest cabling, studded pauldron, etc.), so it was probably, at the time, a more refined version of the MkV, until after the Heresy when more advanced materials would once more be available.

>>46414279
Girlyman disliked him a lot as well.

>>46414305
I still don't regret thinking of melta coconuts.
>>46414320
I didn't include Rowboat because he figured it went without saying.

>>46414279
Horus liked him. Jonson had no problem with them. Fulgrim and he were apparently on decent terms.

>>46414347
>I didn't include Rowboat because he figured it went without saying.
Oh, I see. By the way, I think Horus thought Alpharius was alright.

>>46414377
>>46414407
That probably had to do with Horus being the one who found him.

Wait I just remembered Mortarion didn't like Alpharius either. It had something to do with his lack of respect for command, and untraditional combat tactics.

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Alpharius was a straight-up anarchist in a brotherhood of authoritarians, of course he didn't get on with anyone.

Battlescribe now forces you to choose either Loyalist or Traitor when making 30k lists. I thought that distinction was optional and only there for use in fluffy campaign battles?

Did book 6 change it from optional to mandatory? I get that it's relevant for Blackshields and Shattered Legions when it comes to list building, but can you no longer represent a Great Crusade army and use characters/units from both sides before shit went down?

>>46414675
I think you can choose whether yoyr force has betrayed or not,even with chaotic legions,but there are some rules that depend on your choice, like world eaters' trait and that one banner ir vexillia that changes effect depending on your allignement

>>46414675
I think it's because certain things can affect loyalists or traitors, so having your allegiance marked down makes sure both players know what's going on.

>>46414377
Horus liked fucking everyone. Was there someone he didn't like except nutjobs like Curze, Pert and Angron?

>>46414675

Just pick one and ignore it if you are playing a Great Crusade era army.

You might add Heresy only units in that would make the army unfluffy though.

>>46414795
well he certainly did fuck everyone

Is there anyone that's able to post a list of not-dogshit 28mm miniature manufacturers? I've run out of options and need things that GW just doesn't produce. Spears, lances, sand bags, oil drums, ammo dumps, barbed wire, female soldiers, voidsmen, heads with hoods that aren't space marine sized, stuff like that. I've had luck with smashing random shit together so far but if I have to make another sandbag out of green stuff i'm gonna snap.

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>>46414675
Kinda. You can still play early crusade, but some units get Hatred against Traitors. It's a pre-fight agreement with your opponent, and that's how "advancing towards the siege of terra" looks like.
>Battlescribe now forces you to choose either Loyalist or Traitor when making 30k lists
Pic related is one true list-builder

>>46414822
;^)

>>46414825
Victoria Lamb miniatures, Puppetswar, Brother Vinni, Mantic Games, Chapterhouse Studios. I'm pretty sure that's most of the ok stuff.

>>46414795
He acknowledged while moody Konrad was handy in a fight.

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>>46406447
Did anyone like Mortarion or Perturabo (besides all-loving Horus)? I'm beginning to think not even them liked themselves.

>>46415284
Mortarion and Konrad dropped a shitload of acid and played a ton of guitar hero.

>>46415284
They don't like themselves.

>>46415284
Did Mortarion have asthma or something?

>>46415373
Breathing hyper-toxic atmosphere for your entire life tends to do that. His physiology could handle it to some extent, but that didn't make it easy.

>>46415284
Perturabo spent a lot of time chilling with Magnus in the early days of the crusade since they're both giant dorks obsessed with knowledge, but other than that he wasn't particularly close with anyone mainly because they were all gargantuan cunts that literally referred to him as a "comrade in arms" instead of his actual name. Horus was a friend, but Horus was everyone's friend, so that's a moot point.

Mortarion was particularly close to Horus thanks to their lengthy campaigns together. He was also good friends with Kurze, mainly because he also had an incredibly shitty upbringing. Other than that, nothing has been written yet.

>>46415284
Yeah,i did, and still do like them a lot

>>46415373
>>46415412
His lungs got liquified that time he tried to kill his first father. Maybe he never fully healed that.
Or he keeps Barbarus Air around to keep himself strong through exposure. Dunno

>>46415284
Sanguinius, but he's like Horus who loves and is loved by all. Dude had a friendly rivalry with Angron and the WE legion for Christ's sake.

What was the point of Space Wolves? We already had Night Lords as the executioner legion and in addition to that, they did absolutely nothing useful the whole heresy.

>>46415488
>Or he keeps Barbarus Air around to keep himself strong through exposure. Dunno

Sounds like the dudes from Planet Terror, who have to keep breathing that toxin or they'll start to rot.

>>46415629
>Night Lords as the executioner legion

Night Lords were about stealth and terror tactics.

>>46415629
The Night Lords weren't really executioners so much as torturers. Remember, their whole shtick was guerilla action and targeting non-combatants. The Wolves were capable of going toe-to-toe with another Legion, or a similar force. The NL punished worlds by terror, the SW punished worlds by slaughtering their armies and burning their cities. Besides which, having two groups that are good at something is twice as good at having one.

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>>46415748
>>46415769
He meant Executioners more like "The Emperor's Punishers", for they made an example of the ones the Emperor ordered. Like crucifying entire worlds and stuff like that.
After all, the real Emperor's Executioners were, undeniably, the Vlka Fenryka

>>46415769
Also, wasn't the point that the terror tactics were purely the choice of the Night Lords, where as SW were bound by duty to act as the Emperor's justice, to go and punish those he wished to be punished? I always thought it wasn't their choice to take on that role.

>>46415899
I thought NL use such tactics to weaken the enemy's resolve and to make their mark, not because the Emperor told them to.

>>46415488
He's probably trying to increase his tolerance to the point where he would have been able to kill his first father.

>>46415284
I can imagine that Mortarion and Angron had an understanding based on their shared dislike and complete lack of loyalty towards the Emperor. I wouldn't go so far as to call it friendship, though.

>>46415917
>wasn't the point that the terror tactics were purely the choice of the Night Lords

No, the Emperor made them that way, he wanted a legion that would skin babies alive and terrorize the galaxy.

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>>46415917
>>46415948
The VIII were made to scare people into obedience, where the Wolves were made to erradicate things.
When Sanguinius gets ordered to go to Signus to bring extinction to the Nephilim, he points out the Space Wolves are the ones better suited for the task.
Meanwhile, NL's task was to make an example of those who would dare to rebel or resist to the Emperor's rule. How they were meant to achieve this, the Emperor didn't care much.
And holy shit, does flaying entire worlds sends out a clear message: you don't want these guys knocking on your door.

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>>46415979
I'd say Mortarion thought he understood Angron's reasons, and would have agreed with them.
Angron, on the other side, didn't care about the others, not even about Horus, because he was against the Emperor, which did not necessarily make him pro-Horus.
As for Morty-Curze, I think Konrad liked Mortation's melt-your-face-off approach to battle, but Morty didn't care much about Curze's "scare them to death" tactics.
That's why the Allies Matrix is asymmetrical

Speaking of Night Lords, I'm having a bit of a problem. Fluff for my guys is that they're a terror company that was nearly wiped out just prior to the Heresy, and had to rebuilt. So, were terror companies regarded as sort of veteran formations that would be reinforced with legionaries from other companies or would they be supplied with fresh recruits like everyone else?

>>46416055
What is the EC shtick again, in military terms?

Super duper planned tacticool assaults with maximum win for the lowest amount of losses sounds like them.

>>46416092
PRETTY much, yeah. Fulgrim even idolized the jousting knight in shining armour archetype, so he went for fast attack, complex maneuvers and greatly designed battle plans, as well as trying to achieve martial perfection.
Palatine blades were practically samurai in spaaaace.

>>46415981
>>46416004
In their first Exemplary Battle, they're basically described as the Emperor's "you want horrific, I'll give you horrific" sanction on anyone who used proscribed methods from the Age of Strife. Their terror tactics were more (not exclusively, but predominantly) showing no-one was safe by killing at random behind the notional battle line than broadcasts of mass torture. The rampant flaying was mostly the result of making the punishment legion out of sadistic criminals after Nostramo was found.

>>46416148
You don't have to be a samurai to be all about fencing and duells. pretty european too, duells with scars to show how manly you are.

Or are they extra honorabu/shamefur in the books?Never read them.

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>>46410687
>$23 for a brush

>>46416055
Curze's only friends were Horus, Morty, and Fulgrim.

>>46416202
Hmm, I suppose, they loved knightly things and quite some were overconfident and arrogant on their skills. Remember how Siggy strolled around the Gate, challenging everyone and killing any who stood in his way, but mainly champions and things like that? I imagine Palatine Blades doing the same, with their AP2 lances and million-folded charnabal sabres (it's a joke, don't /k/ruzify me)

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>>46416273
Early crusade Fulgrim...or chaotic boogaloo Fulgrim?

>>46416351
Pre-Pants on head babies tied to his belt loops Fulgrim. Fulgrim was the one who showed him around and taught him everything he needed to know.

>>46416092
Pretty much they are all about planning the perfect manuever, making the perfect shot, slicing the enemy with the perfect blow so they can defeat the enemy as quickly as possible with as few casualties as possible. Honestly Pre-Heresy EC were probably more static doctrine obsessed than the Ultramarines simply because Fulgrim was an organizational autist (was the only primarch to unite his planet without anyone being killed).

>>46416282
>>46416394

Gotta go Ec, seriously.

Glorious fuckers.

>>46416378
What did he need to know? I hope you're not Implying the Night Haunter needed to be taught how to be nasty

>>46416422
With the best color scheme, too.

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>>46416004
Ave Dominus Nox, brother

>>46416443
But I need to be a better Painter....even though the BaC box also seems to be made for them...

Instead of the non tartaros Termies and the ugly Dredd mini.

I guess one could possibly sell them well.

All I need to be happy is a Phoenix Spear weapon pack.

>>46416462
>All I need to be happy is a Phoenix Spear weapon pack.
http://anvilindustry.co.uk/The-Armoury/Close-Combat-Weapons/Double-Handed-Glaive

>>46416423
He taught him Imperial history/tactics, but probably tried pushing his fashion on Konrad who was mostly like distracted by how flamboyant Fulgrim was. How he misunderstood perfection for terror is beyond me. Unless...
>Brother, just follow your heart and make it your own. Make it perfect.
>I feel like terrorizing entire star systems.
>Well then become the perfect edgelord this galaxy has ever seen.

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>>46416458
Ave Dominus Nox
This is awkward, but I'm actually an Iron Warrior

>>46416574
I'm sorry, but "Pre-Pants on head babies tied to his belt loops Fulgrim" meant nice Fulgrim? I thought "babies tied to his belt" meant full chaos on, as in "wearing baby corpses as clothing" stuff.

>>46416231
>absolute best kolinsky on the market costs 50% that

GW pls

>>46416514
hm, thank you.

It doesnt look a lot like the ones from the Phoenix termies..but after all they are their Primarchs bodyguard and thus gain better looking gear.

>>46416647
Pre-Pants on head babies tied to his belt loops was pre-Heresy Fulgrim.

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>>46416514
>That tacticool chestpiece
The spear needs some wings, nothing some greenstuff can't fix

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>>46416462
>>46416709
Don't the Phoenix Guard minis come with phoenix spears?

>>46414082
Word Bearers army list 3000 points

HQ: Zardu Layak with Blade Slaves – 275 points
Chaplain, Bike with Bolters, Power Maul, Melta Bombs, Power Axe – 145 points

Elites: Gal Vorbak, 10x Brethren, 1X power sword, 2X power mauls, Artificer armour, meltabombs – 395 points
Gal Vorbak, 10x Brethren, 1X power sword, 2X power mauls, Artificer armour, meltabombs – 395 points
Mhara Gal Dreadnought – 305 points

Troops: Tactical marines, 20X marines, Vexilla, Combiweapon, Melta bombs– 275 points
Tactical marines, 20X marines, Vexilla, Combiweapon, Melta bombs– 275 points

Fast Attack: Legion Outrider Squad, 10X Outriders, 4X Power swords, 1X TL Melta Gun, Outrider Sergeant, 1X Melta bombs – 385 points

Heavy Support: Leviathan Siege Dreadnought, Siege claw, Storm Cannon, 2X Volkite Calivers, Armoured Ceramite – 310 points
Deredeo pattern dreadnought, Anvilus autocannons, TL Heavy Bolter, Aiolos Missile Launcher, Armoured Ceramite – 240 points


The list has been revised. The Blade Slaves won't be dropped because that's 80% of the reason why I took him. If I were to remove them, I may as well take a basic praetor instead and get him stuck in with Vorbak.

>>46416773
Yeah, but I want to equip my Palantines, legion champion and even sergeants maybe with them.

So the anvil one that were posted kindly seem ideal except being not fancy enough.

>>46416842
Ultramarines 2500 point army

HQ: Remus Ventanus – 155 points
Master of Signals – 85 points

Troops: Legion Tactical Squad, 20X Tactical marines, Vexilla, AA, MB – 275 points
Legion Tactical Squad, 20X Tactical marines, Vexilla, AA, MB – 275 points
Invictarus Suzerains, 10X Suzerains, 3X Thunderhammers – 370 points
Legion Tactical Squad, 20X Tactical marines, Vexilla, AA, MB – 275 points

Fast Attack: Locutarus Storm Squad, 10X Locutarus, Melta bombs, Hand Flamer – 300 points

Heavy Support: Legion Sicaran Battle Tank, lascannons – 175 points
Legion Sicaran Venator – 190 points


Lord of War: Guilliman – 400 points


Also, my revised Ultramarines. Interceptor on the tacticals, as everyone here is just a whore for Infiltrating and deep striking.

Any idea how close we are to getting the updated version of the Red Book for pdf?

>>46417022
Yes, couple days ago.

>>46416902
You didn't really take our advise regarding Rowboat being USR santa. IF you're not going to change much, take 2 normal sicarians with tank hunter or something, rather than 1/1.

>>46416842
Eh, what can I say? You take bad units that look cool
If you have that many Gal Vorbak and don't want to run Daemon allies you should consider the new RoW.

It's not that the Blade Slaves are so bad, it's just that Zardu is so much better without them. And he is easily the best HQ choice you have access to.

>>46417183
Do we have a link yet? Tried the one above, still the old book.

>>46410687

Looking at how GW prices their products, I'm almost certain they believe that they're still a monopoly and that these prices are what maximize their profits. Which is obviously a load of bull nowadays.

Are there any details on the color scheme of Forge World Arkhadia? I badly want to start on some models with their colors as a setup to my thousand sons,

>>46417356
Not as of yet, but I'm guessing red or something?

>>46417228
Somewhere in the past few threads there was a working mega link.

>>46417283
Who are their biggest, or most well known rivals? PP maybe? They are much more expensive for crappier models with better rules and a healthy active tournament scene.

>>46417656
PP is reddit tier

>>46417656

I'm kinda out of the loop in terms of miniature games, but isn't X-wing or some other SW based game the biggest one in the market nowadays? 40k being the 2nd largest with Warmahordes following as the 3rd.

Regardless of what the order is, it's clear that GW is still living in the past where they had much larger market share and there were less substitute games present, which affects their pricing policies.

Funny thing, I bought some paint from my local GW store and the guy working said that he's been waiting for ages for the prices to come down as we discussed the state of 40k and new releases.

>>46417880
He's actually working at GW and still hopes prices will go down? That's some special kind of delusional.

>>46417948

I know right, but a man can dream. Frankly he was a refreshing person. Instead of blind praise his predecessor had said, he at least was honest but still enthusiastic about the game.

Modern GW is like the gaming industry, you gotta get all the million DLCs to get everything out of the game. Codexes , campaign books, objective cards, new dataslates with formations that require crappy units you wouldn't otherwise buy etc. At least with HH we have the red books.

>>46406447
Bit of a Lore question, looking at forge world at the Deimos predator and land raider, which are both shown as red scorpions with the numeral II on them, is there any other mentioned proof that the second legion may have been the red scorpions?

>>46418125
The Scorpions are loyalist EC mate

>>46418125
Nope.
If they truly did survive the Wolves then they were most likely rolled into the Ultramarines

>>46417656
Try this
http://www2.zippyshare.com/v/s15Jqk1t/file.html

>>46418125
Or, you know, it's just company markings.

>>46418194
I thought that too but a few other vehicles have their respective Roman numeral markings for their legions

>>46418153
How do you roll a legion into another? Their gene-seeds aren't really compatible.

>>46418125
Ugh, anon?
You know that the Red Scorpions is a 40k chapter that was created by Forge World to be the defacto SM chapter of their books, right?
Somehow, you managed to mangle it up enough to think it's a 30k thing, and immediately made the leap of assumption that it MUST be one of the lost legions.
>>46418153 this dumbass isn't helping.

>>46418235
Yes, in 30k. In 40k they're no longer a legion and having legion numbers on them would serve no point. Meanwhile company numbers are a thing.

>>46418271
you brainwash them into thinking they're ultramarines but when they die you don't harvest their geneseed
>>46418294
>muh Ultras did no such thing
nice denial

Do vehicle's sponson weapons considered as one, or two weapons when applying Machine Spirit rule, weapon destroyed result, or move & shot sort of things?

>>46418271
You don't it was all word bearer butthurt - chimeric geneseed was later on when they used loyalists from traitor legions and mixed in mostly ultras
I think the idea is that certain portions for certain organs are swapped for those of another legion

>>46418318
>Do vehicle's sponson weapons considered as one, or two weapons when applying Machine Spirit rule, weapon destroyed result, or move & shot sort of things?
Each gun is its own thing for Machine Spirit I believe, certainly not the pair, they can act independently in normal play as well.

>>46418308
>you brainwash them into thinking they're ultramarines but when they die you don't harvest their geneseed

How do you keep record of all those people and make sure they're not in any way harvested, let alone keep all the apothecaries in on the plot?

>>46417183
I could deal with two Sicarans with Tank Hunter. I do like Sicarans. As for the Layak thing, I just really like the blade slave models. They're quite something.

>>46418372
you brainwash the remnants, but not the original Ultramarines.
And do you seriously think it's hard to mark them?

>>46418392
>you brainwash the remnants, but not the original Ultramarines.

So the remnants will not have any apothecaries of their own, and nobody will question this? Nobody will question why they're not being harvested while everyone else is.

>And do you seriously think it's hard to mark them?

Well do tell how you're going to do it 100% reliably.

>>46418445
>Nobody will question why they're not being harvested while everyone else is.
Fine, you harvest the geneseed and then you vent it into outer space when nobody's looking
>Well do tell how you're going to do it 100% reliably.
I'm sure apothecaries keep logs, just have a special one with their names on it

>>46417880

X-Wing is now, impressively, the largest selling wargame from third party stores only. This means all sales from GW stores and GW websites don't count in the figures. Same with Warmahorde. It's still impressive for X-Wing.

Also Privateer Press is just as retarded as GW. Everyone loves to hate on GW, but all companies will act like them once you get big enough. Privateer Press recently punished/tried to ban online sellers who sell with a discount because these online stores are "parasites" and don't help FLGS. They undercut them with lower prices but all the buyers go to FLGS buildings to play.

Even as stupid as GW is, they never punished or tried to ban online discounts.

>>46418383
Also, the new WB Rite requires Vorbak to take drop pods. The only way that works is if I'm going squads of 5 or paying a large number of points for the larger pods.

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>>46414729
>>46414758
>>46414797
>>46414834
Oh shit, I found the reason for the change in the new LAAoDL red book, pic related.

It seems that FW has changed the norm from "mix and match" being the standard and the loyalist/traitor distinction only being there for fluff battles, to loyalist/traitor being the standard and "mix and match" only being allowed with the opponent's consent.

This fucking sucks.

>>46418495
>Even as stupid as GW is, they never punished or tried to ban online discounts.
Remember Maelstrom Games?

>>46418478
How do you make sure where those gene-seeds came from or that they're properly marked? Do all the apothecaries carry two sets of containers and a full list of persona non grata to stick those gene-seeds into? You think they got time for such operations in the field? You think every apothecary is up to date with hundreds if not thousands of Marines? What if the body cannot be identified or the collection is done by an apothecary from another legion who doesn't know? Or are they in on it as well? How do you keep such a huge operation a secret?

Sorry, it must be my lack of a tin foil hat that's making me question the validity of such massive cover-ups.

>>46418552
No wait, I found it in Book 6 (Retribution), not in the LAAoDL. It's still just as relevant though.

>>46418552

They had to do this as they're writing more and more rules that benefit "traitors" and "loyalists", as well as models featuring aquilas and traitor markings.

If they stuck with the old method, you'd potentially have one crazy nonsensical army in the future with banners and HQs that only benefit one part of your army and tons of models that shouldn't be in the same time period.

I think it works better this way. If you want a great crusade army you can always use opponent consent or houserule it yourself. You don't need FW to wreck the rules to cater to your unique situation.

This is like 40k and unbound. Unbound and allies should never have been made official. You can always houserule those yourself, no need to ruin the official game with them.

>>46418591
Then why are other companies able to sell GW shit on discount?

>>46418602
You do realize that apothecaries can do tests to see from which legion the geneseed came from, right?
That's how they found the Alpha infiltrators in deliverance lost

>>46418591

That only limits their sales to their own EU borders.

PP says straight up if you sell your shit to discount online retailers you will be punished.

>>46418653
Because they have actual stores too. Maelstrom got fucked up hard when GW prohibited the sales to certain countries like Australia.

>>46418659
Then why the massive brainwashing and harvesting ploy? Can't you just round up the traitor legion loyalists and put them on guard duty on some remote outpost out of sight to die of attrition and old age?

I have to say that traitor loyalists is a bit dumb. Sure, it's understandable, but it makes both the terrible DA secret and the Eisenstein a bit pointless, when loyalist traitors and traitor loyalists were abundant across the galaxy.

>>46418591

I miss maelstrom games. Before their financial difficulties began to show, I'd place an order that saved me ~20 euros compared to regular prices and it would arrive to my doorstep in a matter of 4-5 days. Later on before their bankruptcy the order would take at least two weeks to arrive.

Shame what happened to them, is there any sites nowadays that are similar to them?

>>46418841
>is there any sites nowadays that are similar to them?
Dark Sphere to an extent I guess. The free shipping on Maelstrom was so sweet though.

>>46418882
Also Wayland Games but it takes ages to get GW stuff through them.

>>46418761
The brainwashing is pretty clear; you want the legions expunged from history and you don't want them recalling anything.
Also, for all you know they really were sent to some remote outpost, just as brainwashed Ultras

>>46418761
>but it makes both the terrible DA secret
Remember, anon, Caliban happened after the Heresy ended.

THOUSAND SONS WHEN

>>46419336
Oh dear Austrians have woken up

>>46419336
Never, since they contributed nothing to the heresy. Same with SW.

>>46409004
Perty kills you for failure, Mortarion kills you for no reason (i.e. executing his death guard to resurrect Grulgor)

>>46418164
Thanks dude.

>>46419392
Perturabo ALSO kills you for nothing (hurr u didn't conquer as much as the other, primarchful legions I'm gonna kill one tenth of you)

>>46419326
Yeah, like in the aftermath. When you could have perfectly well explained it, since no legion was free of traitors in their midst. But in a stroke of retardation the DA decided to hush it all up, because of reasons. Before "everyone was loyal/heretic" it was understandable, as having traitors in your ranks was not a good idea, but now... What legion can go cast the first stone?

Likewise, why were the DG of the Eisenstein given such praise as to become the basis of the GK, when loyal traitors were present across the galaxy.

>>46419097
You've already destroyed them and wiped them from the records. You think the last of their ranks would need to be wiped to make use of them. You've basically given them the option to submit or die. If they wanted to revolt, they would have died with the rest of their kind. But clearly they didn't.

It's not like penance crusades and the like are strangers to the Imperium. You just give them the black mark of shame and march them to war to atone for their crimes with the hopes of receiving salvation in death.

>>46419553
To be fair, the current situation is more logical in many ways.
Many of the Legions were so enormous that the statistical chance of some of them deciding to side with Horus was basically 100%, I mean 100,000 people, super-human or not, do not all think exactly alike on any given subject.

>>46419553
It's because of their pride.
"How dare you accuse the First Legion of having traitors" and so on.
Not to mention, having your second in command and your homeworld go rogue is much, much worse than "the 999th company of the 81st chapter went rogue, whatever shall we do"

>>46419553
Dude it was half the Legion under the First Captain and the homeworld. That's big deal shit.

Also First Legion pride ruins everything again.

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>>46411719
mfw I fucking hate horus heresy art where theres just a shoulder to shoulder crowd of astartes in perfect blast template formation

legion=/= more space marines per square foot

>>46419652
So, lets say 1% of all loyalist legions think that "man, that Horus fella is right." What are the chances those 1% are situated anywhere near each other, or in any sort of numbers that they'd be even capable of forming an effective fighting force and not get pruned out by the legion or just forced to bite their tongue?

>>46419642
I assume that the fact that they were not executed alongside their primarchs implies that the fault lies with the primarchs and not the regular rank and file.

So to avoid the stigma of this, and since the Emperor is not one to waste space marines, they were brainwashed and inserted into a random legion.

Also, I'm not sure if penance crusades were a thing back in the GC

>>46411719
What armour is that supposed to be?

>>46419746
Depends, if they're line officers they can probably pull those under their command with them.
Beyond that, your guess is as good as mine.

>>46419357
I understand why TS were out, but why space wolfs? Why didn't they just fuck off prospero back to terra post haste?

>>46419746

Very low, which is why we have yet to see traitor loyals fighting anyone other than their own legion.

It'd be interesting to see some actual organized defecting loyalists in the future. Sort of a reverse Black Shields.

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>>46419707
What if I told you it gets worse?
>>46419761
I think it's suppose to be mk4

>>46419761
Looks like mkiv with alternative helmet

>>46419760
If the legions is not at fault, why couldn't they continue to operate without the primarch? The legions did just fine before their primarchs were discovered, so why not after? Just appoint a dude in charge and let the chain of command do the rest.

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>>46419864
Here's a clearer pic.

>>46419878
Because they would be ostracized outcasts?
Do you think the other legions or army units would serve with a legion whose primarch went traitor?
They'd be the lamenters of their time

>>46419326
During the Scouring, when killing Traitors was everyone's job. Now that every Legion had them, there's not really a reason for them not to report that traitors had taken over their garrison and had to be purged with fire. Sure, there were more and higher ranked traitors than usual, but the threat was contained and no-one else has to worry. Cypher had a few things to say to Azrael about the whole mess. Really, the DA got shafted twice over; they don't even get credit as the only 100% loyal legion when so far as everyone else knows, that's what they were.

>>46416394
Sanguinius didn't kill any people. Mutants ain't people.

Who has that updated FW picture of Perturabo?

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Anyone know how big the Avnger model is?
I was thinking of doing one of these conversions and using it as counts-as with my legion since I don't like the actual Avenger model that much

>>46419944
>taken over their garrison
Not just a garrison, but their damn homeworld.
Not to mention that people already thought they were traitors because Lionel was late to the siege, and you've got a bad fucking PR situatuion

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>>46419761
Shitty MkV.

Distinguishing features incluse the MkVI/VII style torso armour and vambraces, the cabling with the grill, studded pads and the triangular(ish) knee pads. Missing is more studs on the limbs and exposed cabling on the legs, but apparently at least the cabling can be explained with MkIV cabling used in the constructions, which was done when available. Lack of studs would mean the armour lacks protection. Helmet looks like a legion variant.

>>46416086
Any ideas?

>>46420093
They're a sink hole for the more unstable lot.

>>46415629

>Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it? The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The Wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always
>Jago Sevatarion, speaking about his VIIIth Legion

>>46420124
What's funny here is that ADB tried to make the NL seem edgy and badass but he forgot that the Wolves are also known for fighting dirty
>that part in Prospero Burns where they dropped the moon on the planet below

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>>46419940
So instead of having a unit that's eager to prove they're not heretics, you engage a massive cover-up operation to brainwash themselves into thinking they're ultramarines, then get sent to the far corners of the Imperium never to be seen or heard from again, to die a slow death of fighting and old age, and a whole system in place to ensure their gene-seeds are destroyed if collected?

Seems legit.

>>46420177
It's more for their sake than others'

>>46419996

That model is slightly too small in terms of length and general width/bulk.

>>46419890
>xenos
>in my 30k

This ain't right.

>>46420175

I never interpreted it as him being complementary. I took it more as sevatarion speaking ill of his own legion's propensity for cruelty and taking too long because they're murderers not soldiers. Not that the wolves don't fight dirty, they just fight dirty to end the fight quickly, like dropping a moon. The night lords fight dirty because they're criminals and cowards who enjoy drawing out their position of power if they can. Might be thinking about it too much though.

>>46420241
Don't worry it's in the Eye of Terror.

>>46419996

It's on the same scale as a Valkyrie, fuselage is a little smaller but about the same wing span

>>46420383
JUST

>>46419700
Was it exactly half? I was under the impression that the forces left on Caliban was a garrison force, not half of their legion sitting there with their thumbs up their asses not helping the Emperor.

Also, Lion had just helped clear up Terra and other shit, so he and his forces should be more than capable of proving their loyalty to any other loyalist force, and the fact that Caliban was destroyed and all traces of the Fallen gone, it would be more than proof that they had done their duty to eliminate the heresy from their ranks.

So, in the end, instead of being tragic figures who were betrayed and forced to hide the shame in order to protect themselves, they're just driven by their pride of "we never had any traitors, unlike you pleb legions." Making them nothing more than massive douches.

30k has been a Lucasian operation to remove any shred of compelling narrative from the era.

>>46416086
In the Heresy the Night Lords didn't get any new recruits, they obliterated their own home world 20 years before Istaavan

>>46420383

Is number 4 from a newer FW book? It looks a lot better than the first picture.

Listening to Honour to the Dead. Traitors piss me the fuck off.

>b-but the emperor lied to us
>he's a tyrant
>muh transhuman slavery

Traitors are literally retarded. They followed the worst primarch and the worst legion into service with literal evil. Should have killed themselves.

>>46420446
>they obliterated their own home world 20 years before Istaavan
Doesn't stop them from recruiting on random world they come across.

>>46420402
He's already in that mood. Alternately he's seen the current CSM dex and regrets that IW players didn't cheese harder.
>>46420450
I got it from the red book and I have seen it posted at least once or twice before.

>>46420285
Sevatar can be accused of many things, but he was self-aware.
>There was no other way!
>No? What other ways did you try?
Curze and Sevatar

>>46420450
yea the new red book

>>46420455
>Traitors are literally retarded

Yes.

>worst primarch

No.

>worst legion

If we consider SoH = LW, no.

>>46420445
>I was under the impression that the forces left on Caliban was a garrison force, not half of their legion sitting there with their thumbs up their asses not helping the Emperor.
It was intended as a garrison and recruitment operation. After Luther turned, he stopped sending reinforcments to the Crusade and cranked recruitment into high gear. So he had somewhere around 30000 marines, all sworn to him and Caliban rather than the Emperor and Imperium. Which was going to be difficult to explain. Although everyone would have been better off if they'd found a way.

>>46420175
Wasn't a moon. Was a giant construct that turned out to be a repository of that races entire history, knowledge and achievements.

>>46420230
>>46420293
Thanks guys. Might build one anyway but with a more lengthened midsection. Sure I'll find some use for it

>>46420666
>Which was going to be difficult to explain.

Explain what? Can you show me on your source on our second in command having tens of thousands of marines at his command, Girlyman? You can see our legion assemble right here and all records show that only a small garrison force was left on Caliban.

Also, even if it was true what you claim, what does that prove? That a traitorous general with the resources mustered new troops under his command, probably under false pretense?

>>46420608
Worst primarch and legion as in the word bearers

Couple of questions

Is it worth giving cataphractii terminators lightbing claws
Is it worth giving either squad setup the heavy flamer
Is it worth giving breachers the special weapons

>>46411744
Am I hallucinating or is that signed Matt Ward?

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>>46420175
>funny

No, what's funny is retconning the first founding marine legions with awkward grimderp like that. It's hilarious that being the pinnacle of Earthly martial effectiveness was considered bland, so our giant, genetically enhanced perfect warriors now jack it to torture porn to give them some much needed 'character.'

This is exactly as humorous as the way newcrons were 'improved' - by retconnong the RoboConanHorde into multiple sissy-slapping cliques led by cringey, cranky old men who play dress-up and give long-winded speeches about how much they hate each other - and those pesky neighborhood kids!

But the funniest bit, the punchline to it all, is that this is what GW uses our money for - that this awful drek gets funded because GW somehow believes that it sells models.

Ell oh fucking ell.

>>46418602
Easily, When you add all the lost legions marines into the Ultras, put them all in the same chapter, with the Officers in the chapter all being Ultras in on the plot.

Then, Place Ultramarine apothecaries into this chapter with specific instructions to not reuse the "foreign" marine's gene seed, but instead use Ultra's gene seed that they should be supplied with.

Give them a few centuries in tough, high attrition war zones, and most of the other legion's marines are replaced with Ultras.

>>46421237
>Is it worth giving cataphractii terminators lightbing claws
if you want them to kill marines
>Is it worth giving either squad setup the heavy flamer
maybe, if you want them to torch hordes of plebs in shit armor, otherwise i wouldnt since they cant overwatch.
>Is it worth giving breachers the special weapons
yes

>>46421498
So what's the point of putting them all into their own chapter, if you're still gonna keep bringing in regular Ultras to make up the losses? That'll lead to a lot of mixing and work for apothecaries to keep tabs on who is who. There's always the chance for the apothecaries to die and new ones needed to bring in and keep up with the changes, as well as making sure none of this gets out.

You need extra powerful dose of kool-aid to believe in the viability of this conspiracy.

>>46421487
>"The Lion sacrificed himself that the order might survive."
Given they don't know he's in stasis within the Rock, what exactly do the Dangles think happened to the Lion? Killed in space like Dorn meaning no body, or something?

>>46420292
How are there Eldar in the eye of terror?

wouldn't they get fucked by slanneshi deamonettes just by being in there?

>>46420124
>Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness
That's the Night Lord's defining trait: they aren't only sadistic, but also broadcast their deeds to all others
>>46420175
>>46420739
>Wasn't a moon. Was a giant construct that turned out to be a repository of that races entire history, knowledge and achievements.
I was going to berate that the Rout are nothing but savages that only care for breaking stuff unlike other legions, who also were scholars, empire-builders or stuff like that...but maybe I'd be misjudging the wolves. Dubs, do Space Wolves have any sort of schooling besides "101 of stomping people"? Even the IW, who were made mainly for breaking stuff, were also engineers.
>TL;DR: Besides killing stuff (and drinking), what are the Space Wolves good for?

>>46420446
Recruiting from only one world is stupid. Yes, I'm talking to you, Mortarion.
>inb4 "Barbarus people are enduring"
Yet Barbarus isn't the only death planet out there. Just imagine it: Catachan & Krieg, recruitment worlds of the Death Guard legion (if only they had been settled before M30, that is)

>>46421706
No. Eldar regularly go to the eye of terror.

It's the only place that they can get soul stones.

>>46421714
>what are the Space Wolves good for?
they are pretty good at hiding that they are mutants... other than that not much else.

>>46420455
Listening to Fear to Thread, read by Armstrong. The narrator's voice pisses me off. As Sanguinius'. And the female captain's. An Horus', because all of them are Armstrong. Holy shit even the nephilim are Armstrong. No, I don't know if the daemons are Amrstrong too because I fucking stopped after 5 chapters.
Srsly, it's like everyone was alpharius or some shit.

>>46421650
Just put the new grown ultras into new squads, consolidate the original traitors into squads of their own.

If apothecaries or Officers die, induct new pure grown Ultras to fill the gaps, tell them the secret of their chapter.

With the original traitors in isolated squads, give them "veteran" ranks, and with this new honour, they get to assault the enemy first, as they are "elite warriors"
The whole secrets thing worked for the DA

>>46421689
I'd guess the Deathwing, Librarius, and I. Chaplains think he faced Luther somewhere the bombardment could destroy their bodies. Lower ranks just know he died before their time and that only the awkward or foolish ask questions so shut up about it and listen to this story about EXTREMELY LOYAL warriors returning home from a campaign to find out the people left behind were all traitors.

>>46421714
You're missing a bit. At the time noone knew wtf it was. The mechanicum had even theorised it was some sort of kill-vehicle . It wasn't until after the wolves dropped it on the planet that people worked out what it really was.
More importantly they didn't do it for the lulz or because they like breaking shit. They specifically did it because the guard were getting fucked up on the ground and this was the easiest way for him to minimise their losses

>>46421871
>they are pretty good at hiding that they are mutants
Except they literally dont hide it. Everyone knows, just noone can or will do anything about it

Guys,tell me about cult horde+tainted flesh militia. I brought an army i built randomly for fun with 300 levy cultists,all with vexillia and collars. I am pretty new and i have no idea of the power level of such army, but my friend claims they are kind of op(he plays 40k armies) and that,while obviously not en par with tau and that tier they are too good for their points cost. I thought a bit about it and i have to admit 3points(considering all upgrades) for a rending fnp stubborn zealot grot does sound too good. Is it true or are my friend and i wrong? (Bonus question,can i get a very quick review of leman russes in 30k? Both in general and each kind)

Thank you

>>46421964
What about that time the 1Ksons were guarding some enemy library and Russ yelled "FUCK IT, I WANT TO WRECK SHIT UP" so hard he left them comatose?

>>46421863

They don't go there easily or lightly. Its the twisted remains of their own empire, turned into the galaxies' greatest hellhole by their own hubris and excess. Its also full of shit that wants to kill and eat their souls. They go, but its kind of a big deal.

>>46422022
Do the math. Use mathhammer.
Or actually do the math, it's like high-school tier maths.

>>46421863
To be fair, it's a fairly hairy endeavour, they don't pop in there for soul stones like they've run out of milk and have to go to the shops. They either have to be really stealthy and hope like hell not to be noticed, or send in several of the most bullshit OP things in 40k in the form of wraithknights.

>>46422039
Trust me I know. I'm an Eldar fan.

But they do go there. The entire purpose of the Wraithknight was for protection while collecting soul stones.

>>46422000
>Except they literally dont hide it.
yeah they do, nobody knew about the wolfen, for example.
>Everyone knows, just noone can or will do anything about it
dangles seem to be nuking fenris pretty good right now in 40k

>>46422033
What about it? Maybe if the TSons spent less time trying to study filthy xenos shit and more doing their job they wouldn't have gotten fucked up

>>46422066
I wasn't necessarily talking about the wulfen. people already consider them mutants because they have super-super human senses and grow fucking fangs which everyone can see

>>46421915
>new grown ultras into new squads

"Sir, I'm the only member of my squad and none of the new replacements have been directed to it, what gives?"

>If apothecaries or Officers die, induct new pure grown Ultras to fill the gaps, tell them the secret of their chapter.

And hope during that time no unwashed marine assumes their roles and discovers the truth. Because in the field it can take some time before the new officer arrives. Also, ask them to ignore the fact that all new officers come from elsewhere and none of the veterans are promoted.

>With the original traitors in isolated squads, give them "veteran" ranks, and with this new honour, they get to assault the enemy first, as they are "elite warriors"

So this exists, but penance crusades do not?

>The whole secrets thing worked for the DA

Yes, because the entire legion is in on it, not working against a group inside their own legion.

>>46422056
I have no idea of what is good and what isn't,how the game really works ans not even what i am likely to find. It's too early for me to use math

>>46422114
>people already consider them mutants because they have super-super human senses and grow fucking fangs which everyone can see
yeah but so do the blood angels... remember that ogryn arent even considered 'mutants', wulfen are the real mutants and they hid the shit out of them for 10k years, until they killed some DA marines or something and the DA found the holotape of it.

>>46422022
hes just whining, you are fine.

remember even just bolters will kill them in droves

>>46422114
But that battle was pretty much won, aka the job was already done! He only wanted to raze the library to the ground because he didn't like the sight of it, and what it represented TO HIM.
Say it wasn't a library held by the 1Ksons, but a factory captured by the Iron Hands, and imagine the clusterfuck it would have been.

>>46422158
>It's too early for me to use math
You mean you're still in elementary school? A simple calculation you can run is "how many marines can this squad kill, per point, compared to some other squad". Watch the lists everyone keeps posting around, it'll give you an idea of what enemies you can expect to face (and to kill)
Yes, I'm an Iron Warrior player, that's how we 30k
.
DUBS, HOW DO YOU 30K?

>>46421909
You wanna listen to the audi dramas, the audio books are kind of hard to listen to. I can manage but it's not fun to listen to Kh'Bandah...

>>46406447
How different are 30k space wolves to their 40k incarnation?

Apart from WOLF WOLF I mean, personality wise.

>>46422291
I listened to "The Butcher's Nails", with Kharn's roshan accent. It was fucking awesome. Is that an audio drama?
That was merely one of those short stories in some compilation its name I forgot, wasn't it? I like those.

>>46422307
Pretty different

>>46422307
Very, yes.

>>46422307
Notable differences indeed exist

>>46422307
They are very different.

>>46422368
>>46422393
>>46422421
>>46422428
in what ways?

>>46422440
In various ways.

>>46422368
>>46422393
>>46422421
>>46422421
Lol fuck you guys.

But for real, are 40k wolves completely different to 30k wolves?

>>46422440
In notable ways, of course