Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay General, Part IV: Murderhobo Bogaloo

first for Elves, the most awesome race ever

we may be divided, but one thing unites us - we're better than thou.

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>>44298662
>I've played it as a side-effect when you hit Tzeentch's curse. GM chose a mutation that fit your chosen wind.

Marks are a side-effect of Tzeentch's Curse already, aren't they? Except you're supposed to roll, but I get why the GM pick might be a better choice with the current tables.

I just think that the chance of getting marks are too low and too random. Narratively and thematically, all wizards are affected by arcane marks, and it doesn't appear to be nearly as random as it seems to be in WHFRP2/Realms of Sorcery.

You could conceivably be a Journeyman Wizard with absolutely zero arcane marks, or even (although unlikely) a Wizard Lord. Imagine a Bright Wizard Magister without bright tattoos, flaming hair, hot skin, or bright orange beard.

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>>44291812
>Party is two wizards, a shallyan initiate, a nobleman and a halfling servant.

>tfw one of the apprentice wizards will not be allowed to continue it's training and becomes an enforcer for the order, the nobleman loses his inheritance and becomes a knight errant, and the halfling cook majors in assassination.

Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay! If you're not knee-deep in shit then duck, because another load is past due!

>>44298726

I think part of the issue is that they made the Marks variable on if they were good or bad.

If they'd all been just fluff or equally good, they could have more happily have tossed them out willy nilly but instead you have 'Chance to get a hefty bonus to all casting for that lore' alongside '-10 to checks of a certain sort'

>>44298797
But I like that they're both positive and negative. The bonuses or penalties are mostly small, with the chance/risk of something more substantial.

>>44298815

Yes but it also means that they are harder to throw out in serious quantities as a result.

>>44298726
okay, but do non-human wizards suffer from them marks? like elves, for instance?

I know this isn't the right thread but it kind of fits so...
>found out today that GW will be reestablishing their specialist studio
>chance that Mordheim might return with support
HYPE

Mostly a 40k fan so feel free to tell me I'm cancer b0ss, but,

What if on the cusp of victory traditional Chaos rivalries flared up (Slaanesh seeing its one chance to maybe beat Khorne, Nurgle and Tzneetch having at one another).

This infighting could cause an effective collapse of Chaos Undivided. The Empire pushes them back enough to have some semblance of their past glory and things keep on keeping on.

No Shitmar, no End, just 4 hordes of chaos warbands savaging eachother. Bonus points if alt Norscan gods reassert themselves and they lose that resupply base as a result.

9th Age question

if I pick a bloodline in Vampire Covenants, must I upgrade ALL of my vampires, or I can leave a few independent?

>>44298708
>>That's my point.
>my point is "proper" height is not relative or subjective or some such liberal bullshit.
>proper height is 6 feet, give or take.
>this is especially true in a world populated by 6ft-tall peoples and being a midget gives you a disadvantage on the battlefield. slowest army in the game, dwarfs are.
>why don't they use stilts on regular basis?

Why don't you use stilts?

>>44298912
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Endhammer

Give this a read.

>>44298912
sounds good to me.

sounds better than ET/Sigmar either way

>>44298861
Unlikely.

Humans use a simplified version of magic, which could be the reason they get such characterized marks in the first place. Elves use the pure stuff.

>>44298912
That was one of my favourite things about Path To Glory; a bunch of chaos warbands fighting for no other reason but to kill one another and get glory in the eyes of the gods

>>44298841
>Yes but it also means that they are harder to throw out in serious quantities as a result.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think that the Arcane Marks tables need to be radically expanded, and maybe broken into tiers of severity.

>>44298861
>okay, but do non-human wizards suffer from them marks? like elves, for instance?

Afaik, no. Elves are supposed to be more disciplined and practice spellcasting differently, which is also why they can learn multiple winds without mutating horrifically.

>>44298997

Something like LOTW Elemental Chi effects would be good for it.

Every time you get more magic while having your school focus (That you pick at Apprentice even if you don't get the spells until later) you get more marks/your marks get stronger.

So you might start off with ruddy red hair which becomes metaphorically flaming red then becomes literally flaming red.

>>44298912
>Mostly a 40k fan so feel free to tell me I'm cancer b0ss, but,
>What if on the cusp of victory traditional Chaos rivalries flared up (Slaanesh seeing its one chance to maybe beat Khorne, Nurgle and Tzneetch having at one another).
>This infighting could cause an effective collapse of Chaos Undivided. The Empire pushes them back enough to have some semblance of their past glory and things keep on keeping on.
>No Shitmar, no End, just 4 hordes of chaos warbands savaging eachother. Bonus points if alt Norscan gods reassert themselves and they lose that resupply base as a result.

The entire idea that the chaos gods would suddenly join forces and tire of the great game as if they're a bunch of actual persons sitting in a room somewhere is fucking retarded from start to finish anyway, so yeah.

The very warp itself is the opposite of creation, it is entropy. The idea that they'd work together is antithethical to the entire concept of Chaos. The only reason they sometimes do is because they're interpreted through the lens of humanity and their servants, not representing the chaos gods in their true form.

I will never get over how retarded the End Times were and how shitty the writing was, or the fact that they did it for no reason whatsoever, just as a big middle-finger to the fans in preparation for Age of Shitmar, which is just a mix of shit with shit on top and no meaningful relation to the fantasy setting or the real background.

>Skaven
>most numerous race in the world, twice over
>most advanced technology in the world
>powerful wizards
>their god didn't with and lose power in End Times
>are present everywhere
>build a cannon capable of blasting a moon to pieces
>captured multiple nations in a few months, something Chaos was struggling to do for centuries
but get scared of Chaos in ET , even though
>they could probably drown even the endless daemonic hordes with bodies, clogging the Warp Gates
>they could aim Morskittar Engine at polar gates, blasting daemonic armies and Archaon clean off the world
>could dig in and hold off Chaos in any way. if lousy mortals could do it, sure skaven can
>could even ally with mortals and kick Chaos's ass big-time, kicking it back into Chaos Wastes

why, GW, why?

>>44299062
Because GW hates you and everything you love.

>>44299124
ah, that makes sense, thanks

Jesus, reading that End Times lore in previous thread gave me brain cancer.

>>44299163
And this is exactly why I avoided it.

Question. How would one go about running a WHFB:RPG campaign set in mordheim? Could it work?

>>44299202
It could absolutely work, I think. Really, how you'd run it is pretty free-form and depends on what you'd want out of it, but being mercenaries there to get some warpstone works, as does being a group of god-fearing agents of The Empire, there to clean up the corruption, do.

>>44299202
I think it could work, but it depends on how far you want to go with it. Did you want your players to be a warband hunting for Wyrdstone on the behalf of a rich sponsor? Are they investigating rumours of a Shadowlord? Or have they come to bring Glory to Chaos?

>>44299245
I really love the feel of Mordheim and would love to translate that into a campaign. I'd be a mix bag. I was thinking a grizzled NPC hires them to be his warband in the city, like an expedition group, only for most of it (along with the grizzled vet) to be dismembered by a deamon. Que players recovering from the massacre somehow alive. They're now standard in a warp-fucked town, with mutants, skaven and worse on all sides with no idea which way is out.

>>44298711
Daily reminder we killed yer Phoenix King, elf.

>>44298997
>Afaik, no. Elves are supposed to be more disciplined and practice spellcasting differently, which is also why they can learn multiple winds without mutating horrifically.

Actually, human wizards suffer from those effects because they only ever use one wind. Using the same wind of magic all the time cause them to change.

Elves use all winds so they never develop those changes.

Teclis kind of screwed human mages because elves think humans are too dumb and easily corrupted to use all winds.

>>44299264
I would really like to play up the horror aspect of Mordheim. See
>>44299291
For the general gist of the idea. This group now has to band together to survive this hellish town, all the while trying to make some semblance of a wage so that this entire trip wasn't worthless. I'd have NPCs which they can buy and sell to; other warbands, disfigured Mordheimers, shadowy contacts, etc.

All in all I'd like to give it a real zombie apocalypse-like feel.

>>44299316
>Teclis kind of screwed human mages because elves think humans are too dumb and easily corrupted to use all winds.
but they are.

when Gelt, arguably most powerful of human wizards, tried to embrace Shysh in addition to Hamon, he went bonkers. maybe even mutated, but it's hard to tell beneath that mask and robes.

>>44299291
>>44299332

Hey, watch 'The Warrirors'

Give that a Warhammer spin and you could make a fucking glorious WFRP:Mordheim campaign.

>>44299316
>Elves use all winds so they never develop those changes.
But that doesn't make sense. They use one wind, and then another, and then another. They don't start out as High Mages, and up until they learn their second wind, they're going to be only "ever" using one wind.

>Teclis kind of screwed human mages because elves think humans are too dumb and easily corrupted to use all winds.

Which they are. You take Corruption if you try to use multiple lores at once because the winds start slamming you.

>>44299347
>Gelt

What was with the mask/robes anyway? Was he already mutated? Horribly scarred? Or did he just want to be able to walk down the streets without being recognised?

>>44299363
>They don't start out as High Mages, and up until they learn their second wind, they're going to be only "ever" using one wind.

I thought their approach to magic was to always combine multiple winds to get a perfect result.

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>>44299375

One of his human transmutation experiments probably failed pretty bad. Maybe he wanted to be like Cagliostro and screwed up.

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Working on something and I could use some suggestions.

The idea is that Petty Marks are supposed to be minor/"apprentice"-level marks that are mostly minor and/or cosmetic changes. Elementary ones are more minor/"journeyman"-level marks that are noticeable and/or basic, while Malignmant marks are major/"master wizard"-level marks that are almost mutant-like and readily noticeable, sometimes even mutant-like.

The idea is then to force wizards to roll once for each, at different points throughout their careers (depending on how those careers go, at least), or as a result of Tzeentch's Curse, under certain circumstances.

Might even make a custom talent they can take to roll, if they want to take their chances.

But I still need to fill even this first basic one out. I'm going to add Antlers to the Malignant list, haven't done that yet.

>>44299375
well, we don't know it's a MASK.
it may very well be his face.
not far fetched, compared to fiery hair and stuff

Houserules time. Say what you think:

Dodge Blow is a basic skill. If you don't have Dodge skill you can still dodge at -10 penalty and Dodge can be used against ranged attacks if you have enough space to move aside or duck for cover. Spells can't be dodged unless they require a roll to hit.

Any career can learn any basic skill that is not on it's advance scheme for 200exp.

Humanoids and animals use full TB to resist only non lethal attacks like punches. Lethal attacks are resisted with half of TB rounding up.

Huge and tough creatures can resist lethal attacks with their full TB. In general large animals (TB5+), undead and monsters with Slaughter Margin of at least Hard use full TB to resist lethal attacks. GM should feel free to decide if a monster is tough enough to resist lethal attacks or not.

Armor points provide armor saves. Armor save rolls are resolved with d10. Every AP is worth one level of armor save. If defending character manages to roll equal or above his armor save value his protection stops the blow and prevents any damage. Every point of SB above 3 reduce enemy's save by one point. So does Armor Piercing quality. If optional Damaging Armor rules are used armor save rolls of 1 mean that armor was potentially damaged.

Example: Soldier wearing chainmail is hit by an orc. Chainmail provides 3 armor points so armor save value is 8+. But because orc's SB is 4 and he wields a weapon with Armor Piercing quality hit soldier reduce his armor save to just 10. He needs to roll 10 for his armor to stop the blow completely.

Spells, Rending Attacks, Unstoppable Blows and non-physical damage (fire, poison, electricity, etc.) ignore armor saves.

You can specialize in specific weapon groups (one handed swords, two handed axes, longbows, etc.) you are proficient with for +5 bonus to your WS or BS rolls with those weapons only. It costs 50exp and can be taken twice per weapon group for a total bonus of +10.

talking of effects of Winds of Magic on homan wizards... how would Heavens or Light wizard change? apart from glowing eyes and stuff.

>>44299383
I think it's mentioned in the Core Rulebook that elves learn winds one at a time, but that high magic is outside the scope of the game.

>>44299507

Characters can target gaps in armor and vulnerable body parts like eyes or throat at -30. If a hit is scored this way attack ignore armor and TB completely.

Two handed weapons lose Slow quality if wielder has SB of 4+ and is proficient with two handed weapons group.

When using Swift Attack action while holding weapons in both hands you can attack with both weapons at -20 or at -10 if at least one of the weapons has Balanced quality. You always only get one extra attack this way. Penalties for using your weaker hand without Ambidextrous talent add to the penalty.

Swift Attack optional rule Declining Accuracy is assumed to be in use. Creatures fighting with natural weapons ignore the multiple attacks penalty.

Blunderbuss and Firearm are in Ordinary weapons group instead of Gunpowder weapons group. Long Rifles are in Gunpowder weapons group instead of Engineer weapons group.

Pistol and Crossbow Pistol become Ordinary weapons when used with both hands.

Firearms with barrels at least 12'' long gain Armor Piercing quality. Long Rifles and Jezzails always have Armor Piercing quality. Gunpowder weapons also double armor piercing value at short range.

Firearms with Unreliable quality lose their Unreliable quality for one shoot when you spend a single extra full action when loading them. You need to be proficient with firearms to use this rule.

If you are proficient with firearms jammed guns can be fixed with a full action Agility or Intelligence test instead of Trade (Gunsmith) skill test. After successful test they count as loaded and ready to fire.

If character's unmodified WS is 20+ higher than enemy's he receives +10 bonus to hit and parry rolls against that enemy.

>>44299469

I don't like the marks system. They are too random and way too unbalanced. Some colleges get only fun marks with no real penalties while other screw you up.

I think stuff like marks of magic should be left to the GM and not dice.

>>44299548

I'd say GM and player working together. This isn't 'Chaos mutations gunna fuck you up'. It's an expression of your magic and how it changes you. It feels like one of the areas where the game shouldn't bring in random tables or try to fuck over the character.

>>44299577

This is a game where you are supposed to roll for everything your career included. While every single GM I ever played with allowed players to choose.

Marks should work the same way. Random tables are just stupid.

>>44299507
>Dodge Blow is a basic skill. If you don't have Dodge skill you can still dodge at -10 penalty and Dodge can be used against ranged attacks if you have enough space to move aside or duck for cover. Spells can't be dodged unless they require a roll to hit.

Can't disagree with this. Dodge Blow not being a basic skill was always odd as hell, but I see no reason to deviate from the norm - half characteristic, not just -10.

>Any career can learn any basic skill that is not on it's advance scheme for 200exp.
That's.. not a house rule. That's how it explicitly works. Also, you don't need to finish your current career if you do that.

>
You can specialize in specific weapon groups (one handed swords, two handed axes, longbows, etc.) you are proficient with for +5 bonus to your WS or BS rolls with those weapons only. It costs 50exp and can be taken twice per weapon group for a total bonus of +10.

I like the idea of this, but I see no reason why it should only be 50xp, especially since you'll never do anything other than place that 50xp into another +5, considering that all advances are multiplicative of 100.

If anything at all, I'd make it +5 for 100xp, especially since it could be taken outside of regular progression. The benefit itself is decently outweighted by the fact that you delay other progression and career advancement by the experience spent, so I like it.

>all the others
Seem largely convoluted or subject to GM fiat, which isn't bad, but it makes it harder to judge. Either way, would require testing to judge so I can't comment. It all *sounds* pretty reasonable, but /eh.

>>44299548
>>44299577
>>44299603
Tables can always be overruled by the GM, though, it doesn't mean that the tables or the system itself is inherently wrong.

There's a lot of randomness in the lives of the game, and I like that. You should be both excited and fear the dice when you make rolls like that. And you should absolutely be over-fuck-able.

I love Arcane Marks, I just think the tables need to be better, and that Wizards should be subject to it whether they want to or not. Random tables ensure that it's not just positive for the Wizard, which, in all honesty, would be the case if it was only decided by the GM and nothing else, because he'd just be the guy that fucked over your character and there'd be hate at the table.

>>44299507

1. We use something similar for Dodge, but the penalty is half your score and can only be used against ranged bow attacks you see coming.

2. Seems fair, as long as there is a narrative reason to explain learning the skill.

3. Eeeehh. Usually non-lethal unarmed attacks DOUBLE your armour. The system is fairly lethal already.

4. Armour save is a bit of a mixed bag. I wouldn't recommend it. It changes how combat works inherently. WFRP combat doesn't function like WFB. I'd really avoid this one. Very broken.

5. Targetted attacks ignoring armour is great. And so are ones that ignore TB. But I would make them separate and capable of combining. So - 20 to avoid armour, - 20 to avoid toughness, - 40 to avoid both. It's the difference between stabbing at a weak spot in the armour vs. stabbing them in the throat vs. stabbing them in the eyes while they wear a helmet.

Losing slow for 2H weapons isn't bad, but I'd up it to SB of 5+.

The gun stuff seems alright.

The WS bonus is a little bad.

>>44299603
Allowing players to choose freely just results in everyone being wizards and priests and soldiers whatnot. It actually screws with the game to a surprising degree.

>>44299678

Two handed weapons are really quite bad with the standard rules. Making them better is reasonable.

>>44299685

That never worked this way in my groups. Maybe with DnD powergamers it would, but I try not to play with those people.

>>44299678
>The system is fairly lethal already.

When you have a character with TB 5 and plate armor you are almost immortal.

>>44299699

True. But it's a question of balance. If you lose slow at only SB 4, why would you use a one handed weapon if you didn't have a shield or ambidextrous?

It's sensible that it should be reserved.

>>44299734

That's pretty realistic, anon. There's a reason Knights historically wrecked shit.

With that set up, you have a Damage reduction of 10. That means a standard opponent with an SB of 3 would need to roll 8+ to damage you, with Ulrics Fury hitting on a 10+.

Most of the real dangerous shit will still wreck you.

>>44299734
>TB 5
>AP 5
>almost immortal

Oh lord, I wish.

>>44298674
Core.pdf views fine on my phone but all fucked up like

t 5P +JN#BNCSB
(SBFNF%BWJT
1IJM(BMMBHIFS
3JDIBSE)BMMJXFMM

on my laptop? Only in non-graybox text, graybox text and tables are fine.

Also, I've only ever run V:tM and Space 1889 (Original Ruleset, heavily modified). Thynking of planning this as my next game with >>44298912 as a way to keep things from being quite as doomandgloomy.

Any advice for a 1stimer in this system?

I didn't enjoy Gehenna's implications and while I can appreciate There Is Only War and yadda yadda, I'd rather have players exploring empires not on the knife's edge of destruction (Cathay and the like I intend to include as plausible mid-to-end-game destinations).

>>44299734
Because it's sooo easy to get a set of full plate armor.

sooo... is Vermintide worth it's cost?

I'm thinking of gifting it to my buddy on New Year, but then I'll need one myself.

>>44299793
>why would you use a one handed weapon if you didn't have a shield

Why would you not have a shield? They are cheap as shit and super common.

Even without Slow sword+board will be better than two handed weapon. You get a free parry at +10. That beats Impact every time.

Even with just a dagger in other hand you get that free parry. Meanwhile a dude with big weapon needs to waste his half action on parry.

>>44300122
It's quite fun. If you liked L4D you'll probably enjoy it. Not well optimized for bad hardware, though.

>>44300122
>sooo... is Vermintide worth it's cost?
I snagged it for 15€ at a third-party site, and it was definitely worth it.

>>44299518
It says that an Elf apprenticeship is the equivalent of becoming a Wizard Lord of one wind, at which point they go home to learn Hysh, the High Magic.

It doesn't cover whether they keep learning one Wind at a time, or whether that they start learning all the rest at once and blending it with the knowledge and skill they already have gained.

>>44299669
This.

Randomness is kinda the point when you mess with Chaos, and with WFRP in general. I don't like hand-picking bonuses for the wizard, because then you are making one character better or worse based on personal whim, not any kind of rule.

>>44300295
>It says that an Elf apprenticeship is the equivalent of becoming a Wizard Lord of one wind, at which point they go home to learn Hysh, the High Magic.

That pretty much implies that once you're the equivalent of a Wizard Lord in one wind, you then start training the next wind and get on the path of Hysh.

Either way, they start with learning just one.

>>44300324
But, hypothetically, the Elves could also have a system where you learn the other winds in conjuction. Elvish magic is supposed to be a blend of all the winds, and learning them one at a time would be counterproductive, as it teaches you to view them as separate things.

As well, Elves who learn magic by walking around the Empire with a party are a rarity. Elf Hogwarts probably teaches all the winds at once to the kids, and returning elves might just get jumped into that system, with the only advantage being some experience getting elbow-deep in Chaos.

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Did they ever say what happened to Johann Esmer, the wannabe Grand Theogonist? I know he ran away to Marienburg, where he was plotting a way to depose Volkmar and take back the throne, but I don't know if they ever wrapped up that plotline. He got skipped over entirely in the End Times when Volkmar died again.

It's a shame, because I loved the way the Cult of Sigmar was fracturing along Volkmar/Esmer and Valten/Franz lines. So much potential to play with, all of it thrown aside.

>>44299685

Why the hell would anyone want to start as a wizard? You get a bunch of useless spells and one attack spell that deals the same damage as standard bow and has 10% of giving you insanity points every time you cast. Even your goddamn flashlight spell can drive you insane with bad rolls.

Priests are even worse. You need to finish entire career before you can even cast simplest magic. And even as a full priest every time you cast there is again 10% chance of going insane. For awesome spells like gain +5% to hit or heal 1HP (when basic heal skill heals for d10).

Magic is laughably bad in 2e.

>>44299685
I always played with choose the career.
My last characters started as a noble, a rogue, an outlaw and a gambler.

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>>44298711
we have a severe case of elf here, I see

>>44299446
>slaaneshi symbol on thigh
now that explains it

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>>44298369
I actually liked L4D, but Vermintide did it waaaay better in my opinion, not just as a Warhammer fanboy.

Anyone know where there is a collection of the soundbites either as a video or MP3? I would kill to be able to pull them up as lines for a game.

Tried youtube, but unlike Dawn Of War, the game is good and people are too busy playing it to rip the lines.

>>44300766

I play WH for like 15 years and we never rolled for careers.

>>44301718
I always prefer to roll rather than choose, even if the gm gives me the option.

Everytime you let players choose the party is always a noble, wizard, and a career that starts with really good weapons or armor.

>>44299062
Are you an idiot? What's with you people? Can't you read, you mofo?

The Skaven plan was to intimidate mainsteam Chaos into accepting them as equals or masters. However, due to the grievous losses incurred in their campaigns against the Lizardmen and the Dwarfs, that was no longer possible.

Thanquol and the Verminking gazed into the Warp and saw the entire legions of Chaos Daemons waiting to converge on the world. They knew the Skaven can never defeat such numbers especially at ther weakened state.

My god you people are the most retarded fanboys in the fandom.

>>44301933

My parties had one noble once. And few wizards over the years who were disappointed as fuck by their choice and never played wizards again.

>>44301934
>The reckless, foolish, twisted ratmen were about to unleash forces beyond their control.

>Even at a great distance, the mightiest of living slann mage-priests perceived much of what was about to happen. Mazdamundi felt many forces at work. He saw that the skaven played only a part in the larger scheme. Unknowingly, the ratmen were pawns manipulated into fighting, and dying. Above the multitudinous ratmen were the verminous daemon-spirits and beyond was the eternally greedy, grasping form of their foul rat god. Each of those levels was pulling strings and moving pieces in the great game being played out upon the mortal realm. The skaven did not know it, arrogant in their rising superiority, but beyond them Lord Mazdamundi felt a power greater still.

>Behind the ratmen’s schemes and invasions, the slann recognised the taint of his most ancient of foes: Chaos. Looming over the ratmen, Lord Mazdamundi perceived the shadow of the entropic forces against which he had striven his whole life. Indeed, it was the enemy that the slann had been purposefully created to contest. Chaos – enemy of order, the antithesis of civilisation. In their eagerness to conquer, the ratmen were but doing the bidding of the dark gods.

>Yet the forces of Chaos had made a mistake. They had underestimated the damage the ratmen could do. Goaded by greed, and driven by a lust for power, the skaven had proven wayward. They were about to unleash forces far beyond their comprehension, forces that would destroy… everything.

-End Times Thanqoul

Also the Skaven and their pathetic little god were puppets of the Chaos Gods. So blinded by their supremacy they couldn't see that they were being used as cannon fodder by the mainstream Chaos.

>>44302001

I played an Elf Wizard once. I actually quite liked it, even if it was just a oneshot.

My knowledge of the arcane saved the day twice.

>>44302047

This is literally the only thing mages are good for. Knowledge. Mechanically they are horrible.

But we never even play the system without heavy houserulling these days. With some changes this mess becomes a really nice system.

All right. I'm pretty much completely new to 2e so I've got a few questions.

How would I go about being the best murderizing dwarf that I can be. I want to be the meanest mother fucker out there that can take a punch before I flagellate fuckers with my beard. How would my skills and careers go to reflect that?

>>44300678

Well, if you want to be a wizard you have basically 3 choices.

Start as a wizard

Start with alternative careers which include skills that Apprentice and Journeyman Wizards have, allowing you to go through those classes really fast

Build the character with the non-wizard abilities you want and than become an apprentice wizard.

Assuming you want magic at any point, and considering the lifespan of warhammer characters it's best to just become one from the start.

>>44302316

Although really, for option 3 I suppose you could become a Witch Hunter and than a wizard. you have most of the talents and you're a very good combatant.

>>44302183
Shieldbreaker > Veteran > Champion

>>44302405
If you manage to get to be a Witch Hunter, why on Earth would you want to go be a wizard? You've already been through multiple careers, probably have a host of insanity points and injuries from fighting the most dangerous enemies in the Empire... It makes no sense to just decide "best be a apprentice now."

It's damn hard to pull off mechanically, too.

>>44302715
Most GM's wouldn't allow it either.

>>44299685
Random gen leads to stories that you really wouldn't get if everyone had total control over what their characters were. It also encourages non-combat approaches to problem solving, since statistically the party will probably have a fair chunk of members who excel at things other than fighting. A player who was initially moaning over rolling a rat catcher but gets creative with their skills can become a Viet Cong-style ambusher focused around setting up traps and remaining out of sight. A Smuggler can provide a key piece of transportation and information the party otherwise wouldn't have if everyone was rolling with extremely specialized fighters or magic users.

>>44302715

Mechanically it's not hard. You can move to any basic career by paying 200 exp. Lorewise it would be more difficult.

Frankly I was just wondering. Someone mentioned why someone would choose Apprentice Wizard as a starting career, which logically suggests that if such a person wanted to be a wizard at all, he would be something else.

Witch Hunter was the first class I could think of that was relatively few steps (Tomb Raider - Vampire Hunter - Witch Hunter), had many skills people would want (combat is always good for example) yet also learn many skills that the wizard career track uses allowing one to go past Apprentice and Journeyman Wizard with relative speed.

I get obsessed at times.

>>44302985

The main problem is the fact that unless your GM is using a modified magic system there is no reason to be a wizard. Ever.

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>>44303686
Wizard isn't that bad.

>>44303838
I think he just wants to crush planets and make the universe tremble at his approach.

>>44302609
Alternative he follows the slayer career path.

>>44303838

He really is. Unless you think that casting a spell that hits slightly better than a crossbow but weaker than a pistol is worth risking chaos manifestations or insanity.

>>44304062

No armor and only two handed weapons. Sorry but they are shit.

>>44304277
Slayers are badass, and the whole point is that they want to die. Preferably against huge monsters or deadly fighters, but you should know what you're getting into if you're playing a Slayer.

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Does anyone else use their models for WFRP? I'm just finishing up a dwarf that can be used as an Apprentice/Journeyman Runesmith. I used parts from the Warriors box, the Runelord's extra pair of arms and that ugly great hammer from the Empire General kit. Still needs a touch here or there and some basing, but it's just about done.

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>>44304259
Every fucking thread, do we have to have the same fucking argument?

The odds of rolling a manifestation are low (10% to either trigger the fail state [which requires you to fail an additional Willpower Test for it to matter] or a minor manifestation if you're rolling two dice), Magic Dart as a basic Spell is pretty solid (free, hits reliably hard, and always hits if you can make the tiny target number, as opposed to a 200gc pistol that costs 3s+ to fire each time, and has a 5% chance of breaking), and most importantly, trying to use a Wizard as pure damage-dealer while using the weakest damage-dealing spell is retarded.

>>44304277
Actually there is no rule that prohibits a slayer to use armor.
Also with three attack 2 handed weapons are fucking brutal.

>>44305407
No rule, but you'd be known as a cowardly elgongi throughout the Karaz Ankor.

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>>44300678
>Why the hell would anyone want to start as a wizard? You get a bunch of useless spells and one attack spell that deals the same damage as standard bow and has 10% of giving you insanity points every time you cast. Even your goddamn flashlight spell can drive you insane with bad rolls.
>Priests are even worse. You need to finish entire career before you can even cast simplest magic. And even as a full priest every time you cast there is again 10% chance of going insane. For awesome spells like gain +5% to hit or heal 1HP (when basic heal skill heals for d10).
>Magic is laughably bad in 2e.

>>44305458
I don't know if it is trend that a Slayer has to show skin.
Otherwise one point armor was amok with my group which is basically just thick clothes.

>>44305154
All the time. I have a ton of warhammer quest, mordhiem and "grunt" plastics for all sorts of races, even the ones I don't play in WHFB, just for the purpose.

The Gnoblar box is great for all manner of goblins, and the Imperial militia box, mixed with the mutant sprue or zombie box, can do anything from cultists to peasants.

>>44305544
It's part of the bravado and their desire to die. No self respecting slayer would wear anything more than leather to protect themselves from the elements. The only thing that should stand between them and a troll's club are their own muscle and bone.

>>44305555
Free Company are great. They're probably one of the best kits because of how much character you can put into each model.

>>44305544
I'm not well-read in the rpg, but I recall reading in the Dwarven army book at some point that when they become slayers they give away all their belongings except their favourite weapon, in addition to shaving + dyeing their hair.

Which is the reason given they cannot wear amour in the army-book.

>>44305595
Yup. I also got the mordheim peasant box, and an extra set of bretonian trebuchet crew, just for crowd filling purposes.

I really wish I had picked up those limited Empire citizens before Age of Shitmar.

>>44302799
>Random gen leads to stories that you really wouldn't get if everyone had total control over what their characters were. It also encourages non-combat approaches to problem solving, since statistically the party will probably have a fair chunk of members who excel at things other than fighting. A player who was initially moaning over rolling a rat catcher but gets creative with their skills can become a Viet Cong-style ambusher focused around setting up traps and remaining out of sight. A Smuggler can provide a key piece of transportation and information the party otherwise wouldn't have if everyone was rolling with extremely specialized fighters or magic users.

Absolutely.

>>44302985
>Mechanically it's not hard. You can move to any basic career by paying 200 exp. Lorewise it would be more difficult.

Honestly.. not really. I started thinking. You could be a Witch Hunter that realizes that you could do more good from the inside. You could be a Witch Hunter that decides that you need to use the weapons of the enemy. You could be a Witch Hunter that is utterly broken, and realizes what a fool's errand you've been running.

The real issue is convincing the College to accept a Witch Hunter. Now that, that could be hard. Also, you're screened for corruption when you enter, so that might be an issue too, if you're a Witch Hunter about to sprout tentacles due to over-exposure to chaos or corrupt wizards.

>>44304259
>He really is. Unless you think that casting a spell that hits slightly better than a crossbow but weaker than a pistol is worth risking chaos manifestations or insanity.

It can be. Don't be such a faggot. Use your magic when it's necessary. If you're scared, you probably shouldn't be a wizard to begin with.

>>44305667
I have one of those limited edition officers, the one with the pistols. I just wish I picked up more Mordheim character models, specifically that big guy with the two handed hammer. He'd make for a perfect Kislev character.

>>44305407
>Actually there is no rule that prohibits a slayer to use armor.
>implying there should be mechanical rules preventing you from doing what the fuck you want as a character
>implying other dwarves won't want to murder you and at the very least spit on you and your beard, or that other slayers won't pull you under the table in the inn to give you a close shave when you least expect it

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>>44300678
>>44304259

The chance is only 10%, most basic damage spells are perfectly alright, you don't need to roll to hit, so as long as you reach the target number, it hits. Furthermore, the odds of something really bad happening if you do manifest is low.

But more importantly, wizards (and to a lesser degree, priests) have utility no-one else does, and can do things no-one else can, and they don't even have to pick spells individually, but get whole spell-lists at a time.

If all you're looking at is the damage numbers, you've already failed. WHFRP2 is one of the few games where, although being a system with it's own fair share of issues, spellcasters aren't absolutely broken just because they can't do everything everyone else can and then some.

>>44305738
Jokes on you the slayer is already close shaven and no other normal dwarf would dare to spit on a Slayer with full plate.

>>44305938
>The chance is only 10%

For a spell with range of 16 yards and SB3.

Your standard team ranger will shoot his longbow for better damage and have like 5 times longer range. He should also be able to hit about 50% of the time which is the same as your cast chance. And without 10% chance of going insane.

>>44305938

What utility? Every spells list has maybe 3-4 utility spells and most of them are very situational. Actually useful spells like Invisibility have very high casting values and very random effects. To the point it's pretty much pointless to try casting them until you are Wizard Lord with magic 4 (nobody ever gets that high) and by that point your casts will always cause manifestations and could very well kill you.

Not to mention every Lore only has 20 spells. Which is a joke compared to 90% of other systems.

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>>44306036
>>44306133
>WHY AREN'T WIZARD APPRENTICES DEMIGODS THAT OUTDAMAGE AND OUTPERFORM AND HAVE BETTER UTILITY THAN EVERYONE ELSE INT HE ENTIRE GAME LIKE IN 90% OF OTHER SYSTEMS WAAAH WAAAAAAH WAAAAAAAAH

>>44306614

No you retard. That's not the point at all. Magic is simply garbage not worth wasting time on.

Wizard Lord with maximum Magic stat has less than 10% chance of casting Conflagration.

If you think that's fine you are beyond hope.

Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader use the same system but fixed magic because people working on them realized how pathetic it was.

>>44306036
Your Longbow won't shoot for more damage, it will shoot for exactly the same damage: 1d10+3. As well, the range is 30/60; better, but not 5 times better (unless you're using a Hochland Long Rifle and shooting at max range, nothing is 5 times better).

As well, your spellcaster has some significant advantages: They can pop off the spell as a half action at good odds and continue with their turn. The archer needs a half action to load and another half to fire, so shooting eats up their whole turn. As well, they can have a ton of situational modifiers (lighting, concealment, wind, etc.) that the guy throwing Magic Dart doesn't have to worry about.

As well, you're still doing the dumb thing of complaining that the guy throwing the most basic spell is not totally awesome at dealing damage, and he's only as good as someone using a regular weapon. It's comparable, with the twist that the wizard gets some extra bonuses but risks the drawback of an IP (which isn't 10%, he has to get all 1s on the casting roll and then fail his WP test).

>>44306752
>Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader use the same system but fixed magic

Are you joking? Those systems have famously broken Warp powers. They didn't fix shit, they heard people like you complaining and broke the system in the opposite direction.

>>44306752
Conflagration of Doom, outside of ritual magic, is one of the hardest spells to cast. Considering how powerful it is, that's appropriate.

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>>44306752
>Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader use the same system but fixed magic because people working on them realized how pathetic it was.
>yfw

And broke it fucking completely. DH is a convoluted mess that is either useless or utterly broken, and RT made it exactly what you want it to be; babby's first wizard á la DND, safety wheels on and a kalashnikov in front.

I suggest you find some other universe with immortal spellcasters to fawn upon, and a group of circlejerking circle of magi to play with, because no amount of bitching is going to persuade the majority of players of WHFRP2 that magic should be universally "house-ruled" to be as broken as you evidently want it to be.

WHFRP2 has issues, but you can stop with the same ignorant bait dealing with wizards in each and every thread.

>>44306849

Yeah, powerful. 4 hits at SB4. Meaning on average it's 10 damage. Meaning a guy with TB5 and plate won't take any damage and can just walk right through it.

What a powerful spell.

>>44306614
>He bitches about caster supremacy.

Wizards and Priests are fucking gimped in WHRPG, and acting as if they aren't only proves your 4th ed butthurt from Hasbro's dicking. Dragon Age RPG (also made by Green Robin) wizards have a 16% chance every time they cast to make a willpower check, and if they fail it they have a 16% chance to strait out die. The only exception is that these wizards actually are fucking useful both in the early game and late game, while wizards in Fantasy are a massive handicap to the party and are fucked not 10 sessions into the campaign.

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>>44306950
How often do you fight a pack of guys in full plate and with TB5? If you are, why aren't you using Breathe Fire and getting them with Damage 8, still using a template to hit multiple targets?

Conflagration of Doom is your 'Fuck all you Skaven/Orcs/Beastmen/group of humans who are not premier and excellently equipped soldiers, I'm setting the world on fire and going home.'

>>44306950
The average guy won't have access to full plate. You can get Ulric's Fury on each of those 4 d10. The spell lasts until everyone in the spell range is dead, which means even if they manage to take the wizard out, they'll still get hit.

>>44306841

Longbow is SB3 but has armor piercing. And since almost everything has at least 1 AP it deals more damage.

If you have fast reload you can reload a bow as a free action. So you can shoot twice as a starting character if you are a soldier or mercenary. Or aim for better hit chance as anyone else.

So your bow deals more damage per turn and never gives you insanity points.

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>>44306950
>I don't read the rules, I just make shit up and bitch a lot about about it through double-posts.

>>44306952
>I just shitposting because that's what the cool kids are doing and I literally cannot stop sucking dick

>>44307045
>>44307049

We are talking about a wizard lord. You are not fighting goblins at this point.

Your team warrior has WS 80, 3 attacks and soaks 11 damage per hit.

Your best spell with 7% chance of successful cast won't even hurt him or bad guys on his level.

>>44307104
>I actually can't defend myself, so I am going to yell shitposting

>>44307049
On an additional note, your average character moves 24 yards at a dead run, and Conflagration of Doom has a radius of 48 yards.

Those fuckers are getting lit on fire.

>>44307109
Even in campaigns where some of my players are in their fourth careers, not all of them are wearing plate, or fighting guys in plate. Hell, I played a character in his fifth career that wore only leather. Even if you ARE fighting guys in plate, there are other spells at your disposal like breathing fire on him. Or just directing Fiery Blast which is your Magic characteristics worth of fire balls or more.

Just so we're not wasting thread space on this retard, what campaign are you working on or currently playing right now?

>>44307159

It places a large template within 48 yards. It has a 6 yards radius.

Learn to read people.

>>44307159
Oh god, lit on fire. That's a good point. I completely fucking forgot that, arguing with the retard.

Even if they have TB 5 and AP 5, they are almost certain to get hit twice, from the same source of fire damage, meaning that they have to test Agility or be set on fire.

And when set on fire, your TB and AP doesn't mean jack shit, and he's probably going to panic, too, if he wasn't already. Fucking hell, Conflagration is fucking scary.

I bet this is the same idiot I argued with some threads back that didn't think that fire spells set anything at all on fire ever, because it's not explicitly stated, and I guess all of his GM:s were just as autistic as he is. Which obviously shits a bit on the utility argument, in that utility is about using spells in clever ways.

If you're not clever and just think of this as chess, then obviously you're at a disadvantage.

>>44307195
>Breathe Fire

SB8 attack if he fails a save. So 14 damage on average. So that guy in full plate takes 4 damage. 0 damage is he saves. With a 40% cast chance. Wow. Mages are so powerful.

>>44307109
>Your team warrior has WS 80, 3 attacks and soaks 11 damage per hit.

You mean your Champion? You're not going to be facing an army of those. Even Knights of the Inner Circle have only a +20% toughness, which based on the 20+2d10% start point means even full plate means 10 damage soaked.

As well, we're back to the thing pointed out in >>44307045 that you completely sidestepped, which is that CoD is not supposed to be doing the most damage, the easier to cast Breathe Fire does that. If you've somehow gotten yourself in a situation where you need to throw down with the elite warriors of the Empire, and they've all gathered there in front of you, just Breathe Fire and then castrate yourself for forgetting that the basic rule of WFRP is to stack the odds because fair fights suck.

>>44307226
>they are almost certain to get hit twice, from the same source of fire damage, meaning that they have to test Agility or be set on fire

No? It only works that way if they are exposed to the same source of fire for two rounds. Nobody is going to stay there for two rounds.

Why would you use a template spell against a single enemy anyway?
Fireball does the same damage and 8 far easier to cast.

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>>44307272
So what exactly do you do when you see someone in full plate? The longbow ain't shit, Even a Great Weapon with a high Strength isn't going to level him in one turn.

It's not called Whiffhammer for nothing, newfag; mechanically you're not throwing out a ton of damage, so you stack the deck, swing a ton to make the odds good of one getting better-than-average damage and hurting.

>>44307272
So, where are all these guys with high Willpower and access to full plate armour?
>>if he fails a save
The whole game is based on ifs. You might roll a 1 for damage, you might roll Ulric's Fury several times and get over a hundred damage.

>>44307307
Who says they can escape? They could be trapped, they might be frenzied, they might be so arrogant as to think they could withstand it because it's only 'muh damage 4'.

>>44307350

This is why you fix a broken system instead of pretending that it works fine.

>>44307350
And on that, the nice advantage of the spells like Conflagration is that it's 4 attacks, giving you good chances of one rolling better than 5 and toasting him.

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Does the Shallyan vow of non-violence extend to animals and such?

>>44307350

Guy with TB5 and best quality great weapon has much better chance of doing damage to that dude in full plate than even the most powerful fire spells.

>>44307398
Her strictures are to avoid killing and go about unarmed, carrying only a stout walking staff. I'm sure whapping a wolf on the nose if you're in danger is fine. You shouldn't be in close combat, but if push comes to shove I wouldn't consider it a violation of her faith.

>>44307421
Except you have to hit, the enemy can defend and you have to be close combat.

>>44307398
I'm going to say 'no' based on the fact that I've never heard it mentioned in any of the books, but it's an interesting idea.

On a side note, the stricture as laid out in Tome of Salvation is 'avoid killing,' not technically non-violence. We aren't Gandhi here.

>>44307453
>>44307523
Huh, good points, I never thought of it like that. I always interpreted "avoid killing" as "avoid violence", but I guess that when push comes to shove, there's a pretty big difference.

I can still only assume that they are very anti-violence, if for no other reason, then simply because of the fact that a bad blow could kill just about anyone if it hits in a bad (or good) spot.

I'm hauling a small wooden club around, I didn't think of the unarmed bit, thanks for reminding me. I should ditch that club and just pick up a staff.

>>44307707
They're quite anti-violence, but I doubt it's enforced beyond carrying no weapons. Sometimes you need to defend yourself, and if you accidentally kill someone in defence of your life or another persons life I don't think the cult would kick you out. So long as you took steps to avoid taking their life.

The cult of Shallya doesn't employ any templars either, which is fine since most other cults are fine with filling in for their defences.

>>44307744
>>44307707
They're generally non-violent, but it's not required of them; you just gotta break out the bandages and OJ afterwards. As well, they are quite happily violent towards any Nurgle worshipers, and there are a number of cases of 'ends justify the means' going on in some of the more extreme sects, like sealing up and burning down a plague-ridden neighbourhood to save the rest of the city from suffering. It'll get you a stern talking-to, but they aren't big on punishments (and are big on mercy) except for casting people out of the cult in extreme situations.

>>44307744
>>44307826
I'm still keeping a knife, though, but that's not as much because it's a "weapon", but because it's pretty much a necessary tool for anyone living in this entire world.

>>44305995
If the slayer is wearing full plate i doubt he's much of a slayer, would probably at best slay some orcs lust with is ore ditch if you catch my meaning

>>44307889
Nobody in the cult would raise an eyebrow at a knife, since it can be used to cut rope or chop chicken. A dagger, however, would bring up several conversations with the local matron.

Here's a question that I usually have trouble deciding on.

Travel rates in the empire, on the roads and rivers. How should I determine this?

>>44308185
If you look on page 138 of the core book, there's a chart that has overland movement in miles per hour. You can use that and the maps from http://www.windsofchaos.com/?page_id=27 and http://www.gitzmansgallery.com/warhammer-maps.html to determine how fast your party travels.

>>44308478
Any idea what river travel rates should be?

>>44309234
I'd probably use the same system, but use the speed listed for water craft and add bonuses or penalties based on how the wind blows or if the crew uses oars.

How would the early versions of Greenskins who had females and bred with humans fit into the current Warhammer Fantasy?
Orcy humans? Some mutation of greenskin? Mork trying to get human followers by copying Chaos after watching a Great Unclean One and a witch fuck?

>>44310010
Mutations would be the easiest way to go. Those who sit too close to warpstone or had the bright idea to raid closer to the Realm of Chaos.

>>44310063
Weren't Orcs immune to Chaos mutations? I've never seen it mentioned.

>>44310210
I can't exactly recall, but I think there was some offhand line that the Chaos Gods can't steal orc souls. Their bodies can get corrupted, but Gork (or possibly Mork) punches them out and takes orcs to Da Big Green. I used to have an old White Dwarf issue with artwork of mutated Orks, so I'm sure the same applies to Orcs.

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>>44310351
>>44310210
This picture, actually. And if we're going by the rules, greenskins of any kind don't get Resistance to Chaos like Halflings or Grail Knights do.

>>44310210
>>44310351

Resistant, but not immune. Same with Trolls and Goblins, but Trolls have less willpower or a sense of self. This has happened in cannon even, typically to Khorn (ded killy blood boss) or Nurgle (Da big green Papa)

That said, Orcs will drop EVERYTHING in the middle of combat to kill chaos Orcs for being unorky.

>>44305407
>>44305458

Traditionally Slayers wore armour to protect them from shit like grobbi archers.

The idea is for Slayers to die a good death. Not to suicidally charge a gunwall.

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>>44312512
Do you have a source for that? I'd amend my views on Slayers if presented with it, but I've always seen them as armourless. Dying to a goblin arrow might suck, but it's part of the slayer life. Some die honourably against dragons, others die cold and forgotten to a Skaven blade in an abandoned tunnel. Wearing armour goes against their dedication to die, especially considering how hard it would be to take off all your armour in the field when you get past all the fodder.

Besides, only the most suicidal disappear into orc lairs or Skaven warrens. Those who are truly set on dying to regain their honour will seek out the most monstrous of foes, not grobbi.

>>44312674
>Wearing armour goes against their dedication to die,

The best sources I can think of off hand are some of the early Dwarf Army books and the 1st WFRP which depicts a slayer wearing what...may be armour on the cover.

Slayers aren't a suicide cult looking to die. They are deliberately looking to die honorable deaths. Even the greatest written depiction of a Slayer - Gotrek Gurnisson - has been shown to avoid a fight when it wouldn't have served a purpose.

>Those who are truly set on dying to regain their honour will seek out the most monstrous of foes, not grobbi.

Depends on where you are. Trying to clear a lost dwarf hold of grobbi is a lot more honourable than trying to kill a giant in the middle of nowhere that hasn't bothered anyone.

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I just want to point out this bit of fluff from the career compendium. The tl;dr is 'dwarves don't consider anything short of heavy chain to really be armor, and honestly, the bared chest is mostly a battlefield affectation when slayers band up together', though.

Anyone do a border princes game?

I was thinking of letting the players actually try to set up a actual nation, but it will take multiple generations of their characters fighting and dying to establish a small something.

>>44314377
I've been dying to do one. My group is too inconsistent for long-term campaigns, and I've already been burned once by them in WFRP

The odds of them setting up an 'actual nation' are slim to none, but if they're clever they can take over a fair chunk of land and declare it their own kingdom. It's got the advantage that the party will be in charge (unless they appoint a figurehead) so it's more stable if one guy eats an arrow. It won't last forever, but nothing does (except the Empire, praise Sigmar).

I find it kind of funny how people shit on the End Times and try to create their own timelines, but instead of starting off with the good basis presented in Tamurkhan that was supposedly going to at least shake up, if not end the Warhammer world, they drone on about their own bad ideas.

>>44299042

The Great Game has absolutely nothing to do with the mortal worlds. Don't act like the Chaos gods wanting to destroy a world (Not the only world either) suddenly came out of nowhere when they tried to do the same damn thing the moment the portals collapsed.

The idea that the Chaos gods will not work together if it suits their purposes is blatantly contradicted in the lore. The only real point is that it's seemingly rare when all four of them will cooperate, it's usually two.

>>44315744
>Don't act like the Chaos gods wanting to destroy a world (Not the only world either)

That's a relatively new confirmation. It's always been suspected and assumed, but technically Fantasy was always a separate setting.

>Don't act like the Chaos gods wanting to destroy a world

There's a difference between destroy and conquer.

Huh.

I never realised that the cover of the 1ed WFRP rulebook was a scene from Gotrek and Felix.

>>44299042
Look at the retard thinking his headcanon counts as real fluff.

The Great Game is one of the older pieces of Chaos fluff and their quest to rule the multiverse is as well.

>>44316457
>That's a relatively new confirmation.

It isn't.

>There's a difference between destroy and conquer.

To Chaos it's the samething. When they rule they unmkake and reshape in their own image. The worlds and realities they conquer are dragged to the Realm of Chaos and dissolved there.

>>44316818
>It isn't.

It is.

>The worlds and realities they conquer are dragged to the Realm of Chaos and dissolved there.

Explain Daemon Worlds.

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>>44298912
>What if on the cusp of victory traditional Chaos rivalries flared up (Slaanesh seeing its one chance to maybe beat Khorne, Nurgle and Tzneetch having at one another).

That would never happen as long as Archaon lives. The Chaos Gods won't infight as long as they are subject to Archaon's unifying will. The forces of Order failed to destroy Archaon and thus they failed to save the world.

>The Empire pushes them back enough to have some semblance of their past glory and things keep on keeping on.

By the time Chaos was at the "cusp of victory" there was no empire left. Only plagued wastelands filled with Chaotics, daemons, and the undead. The world was dying before but at the point it was mostly dead.

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>>44314808
I could only imagine it would succeed as a small stable kingdom if they have the fortune of favorable defensible terrain. The favor of the dwarves, and maybe the patronage of a elector count.

>>44316860
>It is.

It isn't.

Daemons invading other worlds was mentioned in WHFB fluff. Daemons Princes disappearing after their Ascension to serve Chaos in other worlds.

The multiverse was mentioned also.

All in older fluff.

>Explain Daemon Worlds.

They are worlds stuck between reality and the Warp. Unmade and reshaped again in the image of the god who conquered.

They are a 40K thing. In fantasy, Chaos was only shown to utterly destroy the worlds they conquer.

>>44317044
>In fantasy, Chaos was only shown to utterly destroy the worlds they conquer.

In fantasy, no other worlds have ever been shown.

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>>44317044
(picture related).

>>44317123

You really need to cite sources.

>>44317121
You

see

>>44317123

Other worlds and dimensions were mentioned. The multiverse was mentioned.

Heck, the Old One gateways which connected the worlds of their interdimensional and galactic empire was subverted by the Chaotic powers.

I hate to break it to you but the WHFB world was one tiny speck in a much larger universe.

>>44317150
Warriors of Chaos 7th ED and 8th ED army books.

Daemons of Chaos 7th ED.

Hordes of Chaos 6th ED.

The Lizardmem army books.

>>44317223
Also the Liber Chaotica has a WHFB scholar having visions of the 40K universe. I guess that counts.

He saw the War of Heaven, the birth of Slaanesh, and the Black Crusades of the Abandoned One (Abaddon).

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>>44316457

>That's a relatively new confirmation. It's always been suspected and assumed, but technically Fantasy was always a separate setting.

I'm not talking about Fantasy/40k, which GW has walked away from outside of references, but rather Fantasy's being a part of its own universe and possibly multiverse.

Someone in an earlier thread posted this image which appears to come from one of the RPG books, showing that the Warhammer world is at least part of a solar system or possibly was at one point.

The Old Ones of course were also said to come from space and use the portals they set up at the north and south poles as a means of travel.

>>44317001

What else do you need to make a successful kingdom?

>>44317752
Fresh water.

Farmable land.

Some way to dissuade your neighbors from cheese-ratting you in the back.

>>44317948

That's a stable kingdom.

What do you need for SUCCESS.

>>44318504
Stability for one thing, a few generations of stable succession to ensure that shit isn't constantly usurped.

Probably a few alliances and secure trade routes.

>>44300649
>So much potential to play with, all of it thrown aside.
you just described 90% of WHFB fluff in that line, mate

>>44302183
>before I flagellate fuckers with my beard
I want to see that so bad...

>dwarf with 2 meter long beard
>each beardhair has a tiny lead ball attached to its tip
>each tiny lead ball has microscopic steel spikes on it, to better rip flesh
>each tiny lead ball also has microscopic runes on it, because fuck, it's a dwarf, right?
>each beard-swing cuts bloody swathes, slicing flesh, ripping off limbs, splattering the dwarf with gore

that would be fucking metal

>>44317412
so wait, hammerverse has a proper cosmology, like our world? judging from Lore of Heavens, I expected it to be more Ptolemaic... I mean, 'cmon, same magic both affects weather and rips comets from their orbits (said comets being very close to the planet in the first place, to fall so soon after being called down)

So, how many people use the storm of chaos or run wfrp 2e before the storm?

>>44319147

I haven't read any of the RPG books so I really can't tell you and they would likely be the place where such information would appear. To me it seems like the RPG books were good for covering things in depth and stuff that didn't matter in Fantasy Battles. The 8th army books seemed to be a general overview of races and such, but weren't super in depth.

>>44319254
My games are set several months after the victory at Middenheim. Currently my 'canon' has advanced twenty years, so the calendar is in the 2540's

>>44318577
A powerful Breton, dwarfen, or Imperial sponsor couldn't hurt either.

>>44319307
is not-failbaddon dead?

>>44319530
The last anyone heard of Archaon, he was holed up in Brass Keep. A year after the Storm has ended, an expedition was launched to retake Brass Keep but it was found to be empty. No one has heard a peep from Archaon since, so no one is sure if he's alive or if he was consumed in the infighting. Chaos has tried a few new tricks since then, but I haven't decided what Archaon's fat was. Mostly because I don't have the model.

>>44319557
>>44319307

What else has changed in your setting? What has changed in 20 years?

so, since 9th Age had a new revision recently


are new Bladedancer Kindred drums worth it?

(to those unfamiliar with 9th Age - when the unit of wardancers + shadowdancer with them drums charges an enemy unit, that unit can only choose to Hold. no fleeing (unless already fleeing), no shooting, nada. just stand still and get ready to be slaughtered. 35pts.)

>>44317001
>The favor of the dwarves, and maybe the patronage of a elector count.
Dude, these are the border princes where every hobo can declare himself a lord, duke, prince or imperator.
>>44317752
Some dudes who would listen to you and you have to call yourself king.

A friend GMd a campaign for several years for 4 vs 4 player. I wasn't in any groups, though he kept me up to date about what happened and I once played a NPC.

>>44319629
In no particular order.

Kislev has rebuilt, but is heavily dependent on the Empire for aid. Erengrad is a shadow of its former glory.

There's a war brewing in Estalia, one that will either unite it under a single banner or return to the status quo.

Tobarro is under Bretonnian naval occupation. This was done to put down the anarchy and rioting after a freak storm, but now the Bretonnians won't leave.

Relations between Bretonnia and the Empire are as good as ever, though someone is trying to start a war. Hawks on both sides feel they have become complacent and towns on either side of the Grey Mountains have been raided. At the moment, only minor skirmishes have broken out between the two nations.

In Bretonnia, the Black Knight of Mousillon is preparing his war on the crown. He is very near to giving the order to his 'vassals' and his mysterious allies. King Leoncour is too busy dealing with diplomatic matters to properly intervene with mere rumours of this charlatan.

In the Empire, the eastern provinces are shattered and near collapse. They are under martial law and hang by a thread. Karl Franz is deathly ill and his Electors sense an election is near. Boris Todbringer is dead and the duke of Carroburg, Leopold von Bildhofen, is speaking of Middenland's secession from Middenheim.

There is great interest in travel and colonization of Lustria, though few have succeeded. While still hostile, the Lizardmen seem unable or unwilling to repel every expedition that lands on their shores.

Nagash is plotting his return and is very near to that goal. Many of his agents scour the land in disguise to find magical items that will accomplish this, most of all the Crown of Sorcery and his Hand. He was nearly reborn but was stopped by a few plucky mercenaries. Well, his spectre was.

>>44319719
sounds cool

>>44307961
>Nobody in the cult would raise an eyebrow at a knife, since it can be used to cut rope or chop chicken. A dagger, however, would bring up several conversations with the local matron.

>*immediately erases "dagger" and writes "knife" on sheet*

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>>44315744
>The Great Game has absolutely nothing to do with the mortal worlds.
Agreed.

>Don't act like the Chaos gods wanting to destroy a world (Not the only world either) suddenly came out of nowhere when they tried to do the same damn thing the moment the portals collapsed.
I.. didn't...? Are you on crack?

>The idea that the Chaos gods will not work together if it suits their purposes is blatantly contradicted in the lore.
Oh, nevermind, you're obviously on crack, or have some kind of reading disability. My apologies.

>The only real point is that it's seemingly rare when all four of them will cooperate, it's usually two.
It's so cute, you're another one of the retards that think that the chaos gods are individual personas. That's a-dor-able!

>yfw

>>44319758
Thanks. I like to think that the world has a black eye and more than a few broken bones, but it looks to the future with cautious optimism .

>>44319759
>>messer
>>yeah, "knife"...

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>>44319759

You call that a knife?

THIS is a knife.

>>44319827
Not him but nobody is retarded but you.

You are trying to substitute your headcanon with actual lore.

And the Chaos Gods are individual personas. The concept of them being aspects of "Chaos Undivided" or whatever is a mistaken idea by fans, and it's part of the reason why Chaos Undivided is being scrubbed from both settings. It's because you people are this retarded that GW had to step in and remove an entire portion of the lore so that you people can get on the right track. I hope you are all happy.

does WHFBRP support playing as other races in other lands? e.g. a Wood Elf in Athel Loren? or it's mainly about being an Imperial peasant in some backwater Imperial shithole?

>>44319863

Well the Chaos gods being all part of one being is a theory espoused within a box within the 8th Edition Warriors of Chaos army book.

But even if that were true that makes them akin to someone who has multiple personalities that are all active at the same time and actively work with and against each other.

>>44319863
>And the Chaos Gods are individual personas.
No they're not. They are primordial forces that coalesce within the warp, the antithesis of creation, influenced by every living thing within the materium. They have will, but they are not individual personas.

Nurgle cannot suddenly decide to drop the whole decay and despair thing, and Khorne cannot suddenly go hippie because he's having a mid-life-crisis. They are what they are.

>The concept of them being aspects of "Chaos Undivided" or whatever is a mistaken idea by fans, and it's part of the reason why Chaos Undivided is being scrubbed from both settings

Other way around - Chaos Undivided is mistaken as being the idea that there is such a thing as a unified ideal where the individual personas of the literal gods are working together, when there's really not. The best you can hope for is to balance the scales and get blessed by all four, but that is, again, just an interpretation through the lens of the living, not the actual stuff of chaos.

>I hope you are all happy.

We're not, because people were retarded enough to start believing that chaos undivided was something it wasn't. GW is double-retarded for scrapping it, though, instead of making it clearer so that potato-fuckers like yourself could grasp it.

>>44319914
You can play as an elf, which going by the book is usually a Wood Elf, though if you play as an Envoy you're a High Elf. If you wanted to be from Athel Loren, you'd just need to talk about it with your GM.

>>44299042
dude the warp isn't entropy. its pure possibility affected by the minds and souls of the mortal world. if it was pure entropy the then the divinities of order like sigmar and the gang wouldn't exist since you know they fight chaos and all that

>>44319949
I mean playing IN athel loren.

>>44319914

It's mostly peasants in the Empire, but there are expansions and supplements out there to play as Dwarfs in the Karaks, humans from other nations, Skaven in the Undercities ect ect.

>>44319863
>Chaos Gods are individual personas

Can Khorne stop being obsessed with bloodshed?

If the answer to that is No - then Khorne is not an individual persona and is in fact a psychopomp.

Pun unintended.

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>>44319921
A theory of in-verse madmen that was dismissed. The Chaos Gods are individuals dominated by their drive to rule all there is and to rule it alone. Their rivalries and distrust for each other in the Great Game of Chaos is enough to make them turn against each other and plot against one another even as they ally, without the need " multiple personalities". Surely, nigh-omnipotent deities can MULTITASK!

They can work with each other and forge alliances. They can go to the Court of the Covenant and write down rules and treaties. However, jealously, distrust, and hatred rear their heads once and more usually near victory or when they are victorious making them fight all over again. This is where Archaon and the Everchosen come in. Through force of will they can unite the Chaos Gods and become beacons of focus for Chaos that transcends the hatred and distrust the Chaos Gods have for each other.

>>44320003
oh, you can play as Skaven? fuck yeah, forget elf-things!

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>>44319940
>They have will, but they are not individual personas.

Except that's wrong. the Chaos Gods are individuals with personalities of their own. They have drives, goals, and preferences that can be understood.

They are former from emotiom but they are more than the sum of their parts. And they are certainly not unknowable or lovercfratian.

>Other way around - Chaos Undivided is mistaken as being the idea that there is such a thing as a unified ideal where the individual personas of the literal gods are working together, when there's really not. The best you can hope for is to balance the scales and get blessed by all four, but that is, again, just an interpretation through the lens of the living, not the actual stuff of chaos.

Headcanon and nothing more. Your interpret ion versus what actually goes on in the fluff where the Chaos Gods are sentient persons of their own.

Now stop being a lying potato.

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>>44320003
Khorne is more than the bloodshed and hate. Case and point is his Waifu and adopted child, Valkia the bloody whom he has shown affection.

>>44319863
>and it's part of the reason why Chaos Undivided is being scrubbed from both settings.
>implying it matters to Fantasy, considering that there no longer is a Warhammer Fantasy setting

Cool story bro. I bet you're the same faggot that's whining about wizards, fire not working like fire, and people not liking the most skubtastic of settings, the End Times and Age of Sigmar.

There's threads for faggotry like that, but this isn't one of them.

>>44320118

Consort probably doesn't mean the same thing to Khorne as it does to us, his views and likely all of the Chaos gods' views are twisted by the emotions and ideas that compose them.

>>44320118
>Khorne is more than the bloodshed and hate.

Yes, he is MORE than bloodshed and hate (hell, I'm going to go so far as to say that he's not about *hate* at all, that's your own personal inference). But the bloodshed is still most definitely there. Always.

>>44320082
No they're not. Stop making them out as something they're not. The portion cited is obviously again through the lens of their subjects, like 99,9% of all fluff. They are attributed with personas in the same way all gods are, because they are personified; this does not make them actual individuals.

>>44320118
>Valkia the bloody whom he has shown affection.
>Valkia the bloody for whom the aspect of chaos traditionally interpreted as the persona of Khorne has shown what appears to be affection, not to be confused with the dichotomy of love vs. hate which is not only false, but neither which are not actual aspects of Khorne
ftfy

>>44320178

>The portion cited is obviously again through the lens of their subjects, like 99,9% of all fluff.

Oh, you're one of those people who think the codices and army books are propaganda and such despite the fact that they've had an omniscient author for who knows how long now, aren't you?

>>44320178
>Yes, he is MORE than bloodshed and hate (hell, I'm going to go so far as to say that he's not about *hate* at all, that's your own personal inference). But the bloodshed is still most definitely there. Always.

There is always bloodshed, hate, defiance, and martial courage. Khorne is many things and he has his own warrior code and method that sets him apart from other martial gods.

Beside all of there is always something else. For example, in the case of Skarbrand it' said that Khorne has little mercy and forgiveness in his heart, and he will not spare it for Skarbrand.

You efforts to make them non-characters fails when the fluff is involved.

>No they're not. Stop making them out as something they're not. The portion cited is obviously again through the lens of their subjects, like 99,9% of all fluff. They are attributed with personas in the same way all gods are, because they are personified; this does not make them actual individuals.

Oh yes you are.

And your bullshit bout the actual fluff being from the "lens of their subjects" does not cut it. Most of it is the omniscient narrator, anyways.

So what we have here is your unsupported interpretation of the fluff versus decades of lore where the Chaos Gods are colorful personalities who interacted with mortals and gods alike.

I think the problem is that the Chaos Gods were originally painted one way and have slowly transmuted to the other. As a consequence, there is plenty of fluff that suggests that the Gods are both individuals as well as fluff that suggests they are psychopomps.

>>44320233
>Most of it is the omniscient narrator, anyways.
Oh boy, you're new to Warhammer and think that it's omniscient narrator. Well that explains a lot.

>the Chaos Gods are colorful personalities who interacted with mortals and gods alike.
Of course they are colourful and of course they interact. This does not make them their own individuals. What part of this are you not getting? Are you legitimately autistic?

And I don't mean that in a "Haha, what an autist!"-kind of way, but legitimately autistic.

>>44320250
exactly. and the only proper decision is to pick the most incomprehensible and lovecratian image of them, because the current official fluff makes them primitive, linear and lame.

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>>44319719
And what of Tilea? Araby?

>>44319836
>Retired soldier becomes a Shallyan priest, wandering the world doing good.
>Stout staff, a bag of bandages, and a fucking grosse messer/buckler.
>The church unofficially allows it, because he's still technically following the rules, and sometimes the sisters need some backup when the pledged templars from other orders are not on hand....

FUND IT.

>>44320233
>For example, in the case of Skarbrand it' said that Khorne has little mercy and forgiveness in his heart, and he will not spare it for Skarbrand.

What's your point? Obviously, Khorne doesn't have much forgiveness in his figurative heart. This seems to have nothing to do with the argument.

>>44320273

I agree wholeheartedly.

The Chaos Gods are being painted as card carrying saturday morning villains.

Shit, at this rate it won't be long before they get minis for AoS.

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>>44320264
>Oh boy, you're new to Warhammer and think that it's omniscient narrator. Well that explains a lot.

Yes, it is.

And your entire sorry argument rests on us ignoring all the fluff and listening to your flawed interpretation.

>This does not make them their own individuals.

They are their own individuals because besides the Hate, hope, despair, and excess that forms the core of their being there is something more. There is an intelligence that is self serving.

Khorne can show mercy. Slaanesh can show restraint. Tzeentch can do charity with no strings attached.

>>44320294
The fact that he does makes him more than "BLOODSHED only, no persona". The Chaos Gods can act outside their programming.

>>44320344
>There is an intelligence that is self serving.

The Chaos Gods are as much Individuals as the character of the hooded, scythe wielding Death.

>>44320250
While the imagery of the Chaos Gods have differed greatly depending on writer, the original idea was very much inspired by the whole "primoridal stuff of chaos"-idea, from the idea of Chaos vs. Order, which was big in fantasy at the time.

Depending on narrator, they've then been interpreted in many, many ways, which has been an issue when people have taken the beliefs of the setting as objective gospel, and people have increasingly forgotten the ideas of the underlying mythology and cosmology.

I agree completely, obviously.

>>44320273
>>44320329
Also, this. The fact that GW themselves have gravitated towards this almost makes me happy that Warhammer Fantasy is dead, because they have no idea what they're doing anymore. I think whatever driving force they had was lost a long time ago and now (and long since, relatively speaking) they're all about the money.

And that actually shows, when enthusiasm is dead, you lose momentum and you leave it to others to just sorta try to figure out what was the core, but everyone has a different idea of it.

>>44320344
>Greater_Daemon_nature.png
Alright, so, more arguments that has nothing to do with the subject. If anything, all that does is support the argument that they are not individuals, and have no control over the core aspects of their persona, it being a result of the warp and whatever alignment they gravitate towards, the coalesced warpstuff interpreted as the greater Gods of Chaos.

>Khorne can show mercy. Slaanesh can show restraint. Tzeentch can do charity with no strings attached.

Still aspects of the warp. The warp is not homogenous, and throughout this entire thread, everyone but you have maintained that the gods have formed because the aspects of the warp coalesce, forming the figurative "deities" that are interpreted as the greater chaos gods, which influences everything around them (and the materium) in turn.

Not homogenous monoliths that do nothing but cackling maniacally and are psycho because they choose to be.

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>>44320162
He acted uncharacteristically towards her. He marked her and protected her as a child despite not doing anything to draw his attention and favor, He watched over her all her life.

During her quest o deliver the skull of her Slaaneshi enemy to his throne, she was betrayed by her kin and was killed by her enemies. She failed in her quest. Khorne who despises failure and loathes to aid his champions, raged at her death and ascended her to daemonhood. He made her a daemon queen in his realm. Any other champion would have been abandoned by Khorne (see Krell)

What other explanation is there other than Khorne truly loved her his child and wife?

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>>44320378
>The Chaos Gods are as much Individuals as the character of the hooded, scythe wielding Death.
Just so that nobody misunderstands this through the lens of omniscient autism, what anon is saying is that the character of the hooded, scythe-wielding death is imagery imposed upon a force of nature, and is therefore not it's own individual, but merely the idea of death taken form.

This does not mean that the character cannot act in the interest of himself and his immortal aspect in a seemingly individual way, such as either opposing life in general or opposing undeath (both interpretations that could be made in Warhammer Fantasy, depending on whether you're a Morrite or a Necromancer), or even showing mercy upon the living when their time comes.

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>>44320502
>He acted uncharacteristically towards her. He marked her and protected her as a child despite not doing anything to draw his attention and favor, He watched over her all her life.

Allegedly.

>What other explanation is there other than Khorne truly loved her his child and wife?
>implying that Khorne cannot love because you're autistic.

k.

>>44320445
Sorry, anon, but like I said, they are more than the sum of their parts. They have developed intelligences of their own and can act against their nature if they choose to do so. Even in their Greater Daemon are capable of that. Which was shown when Ka'bandha showed restraint and mercy towards towards an elf and even cracked a joke before leaving left in a daze.

They are by no means figurative since they can manifrst their entire selves into realities. Heck, I just remembered. Slaanesh nearly walked into the WHFB world during the End Times. In AoS, Slaanesh was kidnapped and imprisoned by the Aelves, His throne is now empty. Where does that fit in your logic.

>>44320530
>Allegedly.

Not allegedly. Her novel makes it clear.

>>44320344
>And your entire sorry argument rests on us ignoring all the fluff and listening to your flawed interpretation.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/121876-so-what-do-you-think-would-happen/?p=1272762

Stop being so insanely fucking autistic, anon. You should probably get into a setting where the omniscient observer is the norm and everything is explained to you in clear text, rather than a universe explicitly mentioned to represent a wide range of different interpretations of the base material.

>>44320596
>Not allegedly. Her novel makes it clear.

No it doesn't. Stop making shit up.

>>44320582
>Heck, I just remembered. Slaanesh nearly walked into the WHFB world during the End Times. In AoS, Slaanesh was kidnapped and imprisoned by the Aelves, His throne is now empty. Where does that fit in your logic.
>End Times
>Age of Sigmar

Your argument is invalid.

>>44320582
>In AoS

There's your answer.

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>>44320601
Just stop being wrong. The whole "different interpretations" nonsense.

The whole legends, myths, and rumors nonsense is there not for you player to write whatever headcanon you like. It's there for the writers and developers to retcon and modify the setting to make as logical, consistent, and fitting with their vision as possible.

It's not licence to cram your poorly though tout interpretation on us and present it as valid lore.

(picture related, BL chief editor)

>>44320582
>They are by no means figurative since they can manifrst their entire selves into realities.

More shit that has nothing to do with the argument. Of course they're real. We know that they are real. This does not make them individuals with free well, acting as their own personas, capable of deviating from the stuff that make up their entire existence.

Also, End Times and Age of Sigmar is specifically not considered, because they're shit stories intended to create a completely new setting and trash the old one, and is specifically called out as not being part of the thread.

Hell, 40k, despite the tenuous ties to Fantasy these days, is worthy of more consideration than references to End Times and Age of Sigmar. We all know that the canon is all kinds of fucked up these days.

That being said, the fact that some daemon manifested here or there, or whether some god nearly entered this or that has nothing to do with anything.

>>44320610
>>44320633
Oh boy and so here we are. You have no argument. AoS which is a continuation of WHFB and has the very same Chaos Gods just blew your entire sorry argument out of the water.

Even way before that when SLAANESH WAS GOING TO WALK INTO THE WHFB WORLD. He extended his LITERAL ARM into the world.

The whole thing about the Chaos Gods being figurative holds no water.

I think the best interpretations of the Chaos Gods are as galvanized concepts. Like the idea of Death as a character, the characters of the Chaos Gods are the result of the conglomeration of emotions in the warp giving birth to the original idea of what they are.

This first instance of the Chaos Gods would be the Lovecraftian 'eddies in the warp' style that is favoured by old school Warhammer fans.

However, whilst the Chaos Gods are now discrete entities from the Warp around them, they are no less dependent on the stuff that birthed them - that is, the raw emotions and thoughts that allowed them to manifest in the first place.

Only now those thoughts and emotions also contain notions of their own selves. Khorne worshippers have an idea of what Khorne is. They may worship him under different names, and each name may carry a different interpretation, but it all ends up in the same place.

This results in the warp-eddy of Khorne developing a style. A character, if you will. Flavouring, personality, style. What 'Khorne' is becomes clearer cut.

This in turn causes the idea of Khorne in the mortal world to become clearer, which feeds back and creates a constant loop.

Essentially, all the Chaos Gods are doomed to become caricatures of themselves. It's even possible that they know this. It would explain why they seek the destruction of everything. They know they are doomed to becoming something as mindless as their spawn - trapped in an endless cycle of tropes and cliches.

So they act out. They strike against their nature. They try to paint themselves as something other. Khorne shows mercy. Slaanesh restraint. Nurgle hate. Tzeentch despair.

But it doesn't work. The world and their worshippers - daemon and mortal alike - just use this as an example that exemplifies what they are.

So they seek to destroy everything to escape existence.

The only way for the Chaos Gods to die, is for every sapient creature to follow suit.

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>>44320646
>It's there for the writers and developers to retcon and modify the setting to make as logical, consistent, and fitting with their vision as possible.

Which is hilarious, considering that it's not logical, consistent, or fitting with anyone's vision.

>It's not licence to cram your poorly though tout interpretation on us and present it as valid lore.
Nobody ever said that, the only one doing that here is you, which is hilarious.

You're literally the most autistic person I've talked to on /tg/, and that's saying a lot. You're quite possibly the first full-blown autistic person I've met that can still string sentences together.

I also love that you reference a quote by LaurieGoulding, while completely ignoring the post by another writer, which by this logic should count just as much, if not more, going by that very argument.

So you're not just autistic, but also cognitively dissonant.

>>44320649
It has to do everything. You don't get dismiss stuff because you don't like it. First to was "through the lens of their subjects" which is an outright lie, and now it's "I don't like this new lore so it doesn't count!" . Seriously now.

You went with the Chaos Gods not having personas. That is contradicted by the lore.

You went by the Chaos Gods not being figurative deities which is not true considering two Elves and a rope made outta starlight dragged a Chaos God out of the Realm of Chaos.

>>44320695
>Which is hilarious, considering that it's not logical, consistent, or fitting with anyone's vision.

They are working on it. It's more consistent than it was before but some anons like the editor mentioned just cannot let go of old fluff.

>Nobody ever said that, the only one doing that here is you, which is hilarious.

On the contrary. You are the one ignoring actual lore and trying to go with your own as the valid one.

>while completely ignoring the post by another writer

You mean the link to the FFG page? Of course I would ignore it. FFG writers are not empowered to create canon.

>>44320672
>Oh boy and so here we are. You have no argument. AoS which is a continuation of WHFB and has the very same Chaos Gods just blew your entire sorry argument out of the water.

No, you're not getting it. End Times and Age of Sigmar specifically *does not apply* to the argument, because they are not part of the setting as it relates to Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay and this thread.

If that's the best you've got, I could pull counter-arguments from anyone's fan-fiction and argue that it's just as valid. It's not. End Times and Age of Sigmar is not applicable to this discussion. It never was.

If you're basing your argument on End Times or Age of Sigmar, you're an idiot, because it's been established from the beginning that it's not applicable.

>Even way before that when SLAANESH WAS GOING TO WALK INTO THE WHFB WORLD. He extended his LITERAL ARM into the world.

Even if you could find a non-silly source for that claim, it still doesn't matter, because nobody has denied that. You're arguing against something nobody claimed; you're just making up your own arguments to argue against, by now.

>The whole thing about the Chaos Gods being figurative holds no water.

Strawman. You're trying to twist the arguments into something it's not. So you're an autist with cognitive dissonance, a liar, and a hypocrite, that commits argumentational fallacies seemingly on purpose.

>>44320691
More or less, yeah. I think it's a bit headcanon with the "strike against their nature"-bit, but it's entirely possible, and everything else fits with the fluff.

>>44320672
Actually, I think their point is that we're specifically talking about the Chaos Gods as they relate to WHFB and whilst AoS is a spiritual successor to Warhammer, they've inherently changed the setting with it.

To give you an example, it's like using back story from the New Star Wars Trilogy to justify your beliefs from the Original Trilogy when people are only discussing the Original Trilogy.

And as for:
>Even way before that when SLAANESH WAS GOING TO WALK INTO THE WHFB WORLD. He extended his LITERAL ARM into the world.

So? Greater Daemons manifest all the time. Gork or Mork stomp on units regularly. Having a physical manifestation doesn't affect either of their arguments.

>>44320691

Heh. I think I can work with that. Lets you play with the Chaos Gods under any interpretation that you want.

>>44320740
The same setting, whether you like it or not.

And you have done nothing but through an interpretation with nothing to back it. You keep shifting your argument because you know you are wrong.

>>44320741
The Chaos Gods are the same as they are in AoS. If there is a change in their nature or how they work, you gotta prove it.

>So?

Which means there is a literal character called Slaanesh in the Warp.

>>44320672

see

>>44298674
>End Times and Age of Shitmar need not apply.

What are you, fucking four?

>>44298923
My group plays that you can mix and match.

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>>44320701
>First to was "through the lens of their subjects" which is an outright lie

No it's not. Practically all fluff is interpreted through the lens of realspace and the material subjects affected by the warp.

>now it's "I don't like this new lore so it doesn't count!" .

Alright. Since you're retarded, I'm going to point you towards the OP. If you're still not getting this, I really don't know what to tell you, because for all intents and purposes, you might as well pull in Turtles or Sonic into the thread, as much as you'd pull in End Times and Age of Sigmar.

It's entirely different settings. The fact that they're off-shoots doesn't matter; they represent something we've explicitly elected to ignore because it does not make any sense in the context of what we consider to be the core universe.

>On the contrary. You are the one ignoring actual lore and trying to go with your own as the valid one.
>mirror mirror nyah nyah nyah

By now you're just making shit up and I'm not sure why any of us should care, really.

>You mean the link to the FFG page? Of course I would ignore it. FFG writers are not empowered to create canon.
>ONLY WRITERS I APPROVE OF CREATE THE CANON I WANT AND THAT IS OBJECTIVELY TRUE

k.

N0-1_H3r3's fluff is still better founded in Warhammer background and more logically consistent than practically anything shoveled out by GW in the past 10 years or so.

>>44320691
>So they seek to destroy everything to escape existence.

Slight problem. The Chaos Gods transcend time and the emotions that make them up can never die.

They are immortal.

>>44320775
>The same setting, whether you like it or not.

Nope. They are completely and utterly different, and you know it. You're just trying to argue against it because your argument is shit and you know it's shit by now, you just can't let go. Either way, not applicable to this discussion.

>Which means there is a literal character called Slaanesh in the Warp.
Nobody has denied that. More strawmen.

>>44320775
>The same setting, whether you like it or not.

Actually, it is explicityly NOT the same setting. End Times/Age of Sigmar are a separate timeline, just like Warhammer: Age of Reckoning. Just as you cannot apply what you learned from the Storm of Chaos to the End Times, you cannot apply the End Times to the Storm of Chaos. WFRP is set in the post-Storm of Chaos world, and has a very different portrayal of Chaos, the Gods, and the nature of the universe than the End Times.

If you just recognised that, then you could profitably participate in the conversation. As of now, you are wasting your time and ours by screaming stuff from a different setting.

>>44320775
>The Chaos Gods are the same as they are in AoS

No. For one, Slaanesh in AoS has been kidnapped by Aelfs. Again, see the OP post.

Or again, the Star Wars example. Just because they use the same concept, does not mean that their interpretations of that concept should be backwards compatible or retroactive.

Essentially it's like saying if they came out tomorrow and said 'BTW - The Emperor is in fact a Woman and has always been a woman' and then arguing that all the old fluff must support this.

>Which means there is a literal character called Slaanesh in the Warp.

No, it means there is an entity in the warp that is referred to as Slaanesh. See >>44320691 for an interesting view on how that works.

Again, the Chaos Gods are no more individual characters than the concept of a hooded, scythe wielding Death is an individual character. They are psychopomps and have no agency or will. They are embodiments of their concepts that are driven by desires, goals and motivations that those concepts bring.

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>>44317223
>7th ED and 8th ED

That's when Fantasy was overrun by horrible 40k writers.

It was also when it started selling like shit because books were so fucking horrible.

>>44320776
>What are you, fucking four?

No, it's specifically called out as not being part of this thread because the thread isn't intended for End Times and Age of Sigmar.

It is underlined in the OP to avoid the sort of confusion that seem to have trapped you in a vice grip, and the subsequent shitposting that ensues from Stockholm syndrome fanboys like yourself.

The thread is a Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay General, with a focus on 2nd Edition, welcoming general fluff discussions, specifically excepting End Times and Age of Sigmar because they are not applicable to the thread, having deviated so far from the setting for which the thread is dedicated, that no fruitful discussion can be achieved.

If you cannot comprehend why, you should probably just leave and go to the Age of Sigmar general, because you're pretty much just shitposting by now, and the fact that you're just making shit up isn't really helping your arguments.

>>44320672
>AoS which is a continuation of WHFB and has the very same Chaos Gods just blew your entire sorry argument out of the water.

End Times and AoS are fucking garbage written by retards. Nobody gives a fuck what this fucking trash says or claims.

>>44320790
True. But they did come from a state of non-existence at some stage. It would be fitting of them to chase a goal they can never achieve.

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Welp, now WFRP threads are the hip happening place to be they bog down and suffer from this shit.

It was good while it lasted anyway.

A toast to WFRP, we knew it well.

Fuck AoS

>>44320813
>>44320813
>different setting
>different timeline

Prove it. All I am seeing is hot air.

>>44320784
>No it's not. Practically all fluff is interpreted through the lens of realspace and the material subjects affected by the warp.

Wrong.

Like I said, that's the crap writers of the setting brought up to make it easy to retcon the settings. The whole "legends and whatever" nonsense.

>it does not make any sense in the context of what we consider to be the core universe.

What you consider is invalid, though. It doesn't make sense fir you because you developed a flawed interpretation and then closed your ears to anything that goes against it.

>By now you're just making shit up and I'm not sure why any of us should care, really.

I know, right?

>N0-1_H3r3's fluff is still better founded in Warhammer background and more logically consistent than practically anything shoveled out by GW in the past 10 years or so.

Whatever. He is no a GW employee and his opinion on the lore matters as much as yours.

>>44320776
>What are you, fucking four?

No, it's specifically called out as not being part of this thread because the thread isn't intended for End Times and Age of Sigmar.

It is underlined in the OP to avoid the sort of confusion that seem to have trapped you in a vice grip, and the subsequent shitposting that ensues from Stockholm syndrome fanboys like yourself.

The thread is a Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay General, with a focus on 2nd Edition, welcoming general fluff discussions, specifically excepting End Times and Age of Sigmar because they are not applicable to the thread, having deviated so far from the setting for which the thread is dedicated, that no fruitful discussion can be achieved.

If you cannot comprehend why, you should probably just leave and go to the Age of Sigmar general, because you're pretty much just shitposting by now, and the fact that you're just making shit up isn't really helping your arguments.

>>44320790
>Slight problem. The Chaos Gods transcend time and the emotions that make them up can never die.
>They are immortal.

Tell that to them.

Also, when time itself ends, they'll end. Not saying that will happen, but c'est la vie if you're a the stuff of entropy.

>>44320830

Right response, wrong interpretation. I meant to point out that if you couldn't read that AoS and EndofTimes didn't belong than you must be four. If you see the posts that were linked, it makes more sense.

>>44320843
>Prove it. All I am seeing is hot air.

For one, in Storm of Chaos Archaon lost.

Seriously, do you not know this?

Google is your friend.

>>44320846
>>44320830

Did you double post intentionally or was there a hiccup with the connection?

>>44320846
>Also, when time itself ends, they'll end. Not saying that will happen, but c'est la vie if you're a the stuff of entropy.

But time doesn't exist in the places Chaos conquered....

>>44320866
Everything must end, even Chaos, for to exist forever is against the will of Tzeentch, the changer of ways.

>>44320865
Storm of Chaos has been retconned and is no longer part of the settings continuity.

According to the writers (Including Gav the guy who ACTUALLY wrote Storm of Chaos), End Times are Storm of Chaos done right.

Try harder.

>>44320878
Gav is a fucking cunt who can barely write his name

>>44320871
> for to exist forever is against the will of Tzeentch, the changer of ways.

You mean against the will of Nurgle the god of death and rebirth, stagnation, and plague.

>>44320892
"death and rebirth" is kinda opposite to "stagnation" and "entropy" that Nurgle embodies

>>44320878
Are you serious right now?

You ask for evidence that they are alternative timelines and settings, we GIVE it to you and you then AGREE THAT THE FUCKING SETTINGS ARE AN ALTERNATIVE TIMELINE.

DO YOU NOT KNOW WHAT RETCON MEANS?

JESUS FUCK MAN.

10/10 WOULD BE TROLLED AGAIN.

Dramatics aside, we all know this. Storm of Chaos was retconned. We prefer the pre-retconned setting. WFRP 2ed is set in the pre-retconned setting. Which is why the alternative timelines of End of Times/AoS aren't applicable here.

Because they're from an unrelated timeline. Which you appear to agree with.

So, can you explain why you believe that the two settings are separate and unrelated timelines but should still be used to discuss the alternatives?

Does this mean I can come into /AoS/ threads and talk about how Storm of Chaos was superior?

>>44320878

Holy shit.

You're a guy who prefers Midichlorians.

>>44320892
Nurgle isn't death, he is life.

Friendly jolly eternal life with all your little disease friends.

Anyone that could help with reporting this retard?

By now he's just shitposting and going off-topic, and acting generally disruptive to the thread. It seems to be the same retard returning over and over again in every thread, to argue over things that's already been settled multiple times.

I tried to report, but the Captcha for reports aren't working. For those that don't know how reports work, just press the "▶" after the post number.

>>44320878
>Storm of Chaos has been retconned and is no longer part of the settings continuity.

Nope. You're again mixing End Times and Age of Sigmar into this.

>>44320918
in fact, I never understood, why nurgle sorcerers use Lore of Death, instead of Life

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>>44320878

Seriously, fuck off.

Warhammer 2e takes place after Storm of Chaos. Storm of Chaos and it's final result are 100% canon in 2e. Every single book mentions it.

GW retconed it because retarded Chaos fanboys and even more retarded Chaos writers were butthurt about their horribly written pathetic Gary Stu piece of shit Archaon getting raped.

This thread exists to talk about WH RPG. If you want to talk about your pathetic failure AoS go to it's thread and stop shitting up this thread.

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>>44320905
>Does this mean I can come into /AoS/ threads and talk about how Storm of Chaos was superior?

Yes. Please do.

Storm of Chaos and the End Times happened in the same setting. Whatever lore pieces exploring the nature of the setting that happen in both grand events are valid. The outcome and arrangement of the events are different but they all occur in the same setting.

>>44320904
Nurgle is a delightful paradox.

>>44320962
don't ever use "Nurgle" and "delightful" in a same sentence!

also, paradoxes are Tzeentch's purview. Nurgle should hate paradoxes.

>>44320905
>>44320916
I genuinely believe that he's autistic and can't help himself. I think he's the same guy that thought that fire spells don't set things on fire unless it specifically says in the rules.

The fact that he'd care more about what's "canon" and have extremely clear-cut lines as to his own definition as to what constitutes "right" and "wrong" supports this, as well as his belief that this somehow overrules the established focus of the thread.

He is definitely the kind of person that would argue over midichlorians because they're "more right" from a canon standpoint, rather than agree with people that although canon, it's retarded, and therefore will be ignored. He'd probably include his midichlorian count in a Star Wars game, too, just because it's a thing.

For a while I thought he was a troll, but this kind of dedication isn't what you usually see in trolls, so I think he's just autistic for realsies.

I suggest we just report him and continue with the threads, hopefully he'll stay out and if he shows up again, let's report and hope he gets banned.

>>44320979
>I IGNORE CANON WHEN IT SUITS ME
>My opinion is the only thing that matters....

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>>44320972
But Tzeentch is consistent in his paradoxical madness while Nurgle is never consistent in anything. He wants to spread entropy and death but at the same time he is spreading growth and life.

>>44320962
>Yes. Please do.

You are literally arguing for trolling. You are an ass.

>Storm of Chaos and the End Times happened in the same setting.

They shared the same setting, but they interpreted them differently.

For one, the gods in WFRP don't just go around doing their own thing. And they don't ignore half of them and pretend they didn't exist.

This is why it is improper to discuss one in the other.

Like talking about the classical Bruce Banner in a thread about the new Hulk as a young asian kid who enjoys being the jolly green giant and then arguing that they have the same setting so discussing one should cross over to the other.

>>44320962

Name the children of Han Solo and Luke Skywalker and which ones turn to the Dark Side.

>>44321011
>young asian kid who enjoys being the jolly green giant
that'd be a pretty cool concept
current Banner is too cardboard and pathetic

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>>44321029
>that'd be a pretty cool concept

I won't go into depth, go to /co/ if you want more. But it's more than a concept.

>>44321045
shit, I was joking...
that's why I stay away from comic books.

All this discussion has brought an interesting question to mind:

What changes to you apply to the lore for your games?

>>44320972
>don't ever use "Nurgle" and "delightful" in a same sentence!
>also, paradoxes are Tzeentch's purview. Nurgle should hate paradoxes.

Actually, although I think the guy you are responding to is the thread autist, I'm actually going to defend that. Nurgle is definitely delightful, and when it comes to paradoxes, I understand that Tzeentch would seem like the go-to guy, but at the same time, Tzeentch is all about figuring those out, rather than living them. To him, they wouldn't be paradoxes, they'd be plans within plans, schemes within schemes.

Nurgle would only "hate" paradoxes if you buy into the idea of the Chaos Aspects being polar opposites, which is rarely the case. Khorne and Slaaensh are polar opposites (arguable, since it varies on setting a bit), but you'd never really argue that Slaanesh would be a pacifist.

As general powers they oppose eachother, but that doesn't mean that they don't share aspects. They are, after all, simply coalesced influences within the warp, that gravitates more towards some aspects that they embody, and probably repels others - but there'd be quite a lot of overlap in a lot of things.

>>44321180
okay, I admit you're right about paradoxes.

I'm still on the fence regarding Nurgle and "delightful"

>>44320994
>>I IGNORE CANON WHEN IT SUITS ME

Remember Star Wars and midichlorians?

Yes, fans ignore canon shit that is completely retarded and ruins the setting.

>>44321100

A few of the changes I've used over the years:

1. The Ghal-Maraz that Karl Franz uses isn't the real one.
2. Karl Franz is a simpering idiot, TEW style.
3. Tilea and Estalia are a lot bigger diplomatically.
4. Beastmen are not a pureblooded race, but a result of generations and generations of crossbreeding mutants.
5. Mutations are not an automatic sign that Chaos is influencing you.

>>44320945
>in fact, I never understood, why nurgle sorcerers use Lore of Death, instead of Life

It's honestly odd as hell. Now, in WHFRP2, Nurgle has his own Lore, but even there it's a lot more like a Lore of Life than a Lore of Death.

I agree; if we need to place Nurgle in a dichotomy of Life vs. Death (which we probably shouldn't), he's absolutely Grandfather Nurgle, Elder God of Life.

He's fat, jovial and teeming with life. Death is the last thing on the mind of his followers, and if you want to sell people on the cult, you definitely sell the permanence, immortality and sustainability bit.

>>44321180
Slaanesh is the opposite of Khorne because he embodies inward emotions while Khorne is the outwards emotions.

As for Tzeentch and Nurgle? Tzeentch is rapid change and progress which would hamstring by Nurgle's closed systems of decay and stagnation

Good god, the plebening

>>44321202
>4. Beastmen are not a pureblooded race, but a result of generations and generations of crossbreeding mutants.

Are you for like real? That's what the Beastmen are in the fluff.

Humans and animals were mutated by the Chaos energies when the Gates exploded. The mutated animals and humans mated and then mated again with each other. From the cesspool of unnatural rutting, the Beastmen were born.

The Beastmen now have human and animal blood in them and can reproduce by mating with pure humans and beasts.

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>>44321100
>What changes to you apply to the lore for your games?

None, really. I like the idea of Karl Franz more as a doting politician than a re-imagined superhero, and I personally think that the Storm of Chaos being over in a year was ridiculous (you wouldn't even muster forces that fast).

But other than that, I try to not fuck too much with the fluff, since people come with assumptions, and usually, from a gaming perspective, it doesn't actually matter that much how the cosmology and the warp actually works - to the players they'll always be malevolent gods that demand worship rather than what they actually are, so who cares?

This also goes for all the other gods, obviously, except without the malevolence.

I love the idea of the Chaos Gods being held back by the other gods, and that when the other gods directly interfere and exert force, the cage that holds the Chaos Gods are weakened, so that's something I'd consider canon for the purposes of the game, not that it'd be likely to ever matter.

>>44321229
>Slaanesh is the opposite of Khorne because he embodies inward emotions while Khorne is the outwards emotions.

Nobody argued otherwise, anon. Why are you so autistic? Did your mother have you vaccinated at the veterinarian in exchange for a blowjob or something?

>As for Tzeentch and Nurgle? Tzeentch is rapid change and progress which would hamstring by Nurgle's closed systems of decay and stagnation

We know this, too. I honestly feel sorry for you. It must be hard being unable to carry out a regular conversation with people.

>>44321262
Got a source on that? That fits with what I thought, too, but it would still be nice if you happen to have it. It's a bit beside what he said, but that's actually beside the point as well, so w/e.

>>44321306
>Storm of Chaos being over in a year was ridiculous

Yeah. It should be something like a World War. 4-5 years of conflict.

>Spellcasters can counterspell hostile spells. To do so caster needs to see the enemy caster, be aware that he is casting magic and either be the target of hostile spell or be within 6 yards of spell's target. Counterspelling is performed by a Channeling test that suffers -10 penalty per point of hostile caster's Magic characteristic. If test is successful roll dice equal to your Magic characteristic just like casting a spell. Divine spellcasters roll one extra dice. If you manage to beat originals caster's casting value you successfully dispell hostile magic. Counterspelling is a free action but cannot be performed if you are casting a spell. You can only attempt to counterspell one spell per round. You can not parry and counterspell in the same round. Holy symbols and special arcane tools can provide +1 to +3 bonus to counterspell roll depending on their rarity and magical power.

>New action: Counterspell Stance. You spend a half action to perform a Channeling test. If successful your counterspell attempt that turn receive a bonus equal to your Magic characteristic.

What do you guys think? I really think that magic system needs something like counterspelling from FB.

>>44321336
You went into a whole rant when it came be summed up in a few words. The "nobody can argue Slaanesh is a pacifist " and other junk in your post was unnecessary waste of time and it don't address anything.

>>44321262

So Beastmen are literally hentai rape monsters? Or do they prefer to just eat people?

>>44321391
well, they sure do eat men, and women too, after they've done raping (unless they remember those are supposed to bear them offspring)

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>>44321262
(picture related).

Sometimes I wonder if anyone actually bothers to open the rulebooks and have a read of the fluff. Seeing this thread....eh. My suspicions are confirmed. Nobody reads the fluff, new or old.

But lets go with the flow. I propose a change to the setting. The Tomb Kings be living and breathing men but instead they will be mindless undead ruled over by mighty kings who rule their kingdoms from their tomb.

>>44321407

They also supposedly love torturing people. So I guess men get tortured in horrible ways while women get raped.

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>>44321193
>I'm still on the fence regarding Nurgle and "delightful"

But anon! Think of the myriad greatnesses of eternal life! Come join us at the everdancing court in the gardens of decay, where a thousand nurling puppies will welcome you, the jesters announce you, and the festivities never end!

Come, my children! Come one, come all!

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>>44321391
They don't kill their captives right away. They drag it out and rape is involved.

If captive is lucky, she might run away with a present.

>>44321429
never said they kill them before eating
or keep them alive until rape

>>44321422
>(picture related)
Where's that from, though? It sounds like a lot of flower language again - not that I doubt that's more or less how it happened. But it begs the question how the "true beastmen" came to be, that are supposedly south-pole beastmen that came about as daemons mated with animals, never humans.

A lot of people read the fluff, but there are some autists that take it far too literal, and believe that most of it is by an outside omniscient observer, which gives rise to arguments like this.

>But lets go with the flow. I propose a change to the setting. The Tomb Kings be living and breathing men but instead they will be mindless undead ruled over by mighty kings who rule their kingdoms from their tomb.

That sentence did not make sense to me. Do you mean that the empire of the Tomb Kings should be a living empire, ruled over by undead kings, or the other way around?

Either way, would personally consider that a bit too big of a change, but it could absolutely work.