Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay General, Part V: Return of the Beastmen

>still looking for ideas for expanded arcane marks

I think they should have something similar to the Necromantic maladies back in 1ed. Different marks that you just get automatically as you get deeper into your chosen lore. Every time you take an advancement in your Magic stat, roll on a table relevant to your chosen lore and enjoy your new mark.

Question:

If I throw a fireball into a dry forest, will it not catch the forest on fire because apparently you have to be exposed to fire for two rounds for something to catch on fire?

>>44322931

If GM considers it to be very flammable it probably should start burning.

But fire spells are not napalm. Most of them are very short and small bursts of fire. Definitely not enough to set clothes on fire.

Is there anywhere I can read about the Sea Elves of Marienburg? I know they're merchant marines, they exist, and they aren't high, wood, or dark elves so the army books are useless to me.

>>44321941
>Other countries do have other beastmen.
>Beastmen in Empire are mutations of local fauna.

I know, I just wish we would've seen more of it before Warhammer Fantasy was kill. There's so many different kinds of potential beastmen that would've been interesting to see.

That said, much of the Warhammer Fantasy setting was never properly explored either way. The focus was always on the Empire, and that's OK, but a sourcebook on Ind and Cathay would've been nice, or other parts of the world such as The New World (even though I realize that it would've been primarily the domains of the Dark Elves and/or Lizardmen, it could've been cool).

>>44322865
>You can set people on fire only if they take damage from the same source of fire for two rounds. So no, your fireball won't set people on fire.

If you hit them with your fireball two rounds in a row, that would be the same source. Also, if you set fire to the surroundings, you'll force them to move around or risk catching fire.

It's probably not what you were thinking of, but I just wanted to mention it. You're indeed correct that firing a simple fireball will not have a chance to set fire to them right away.

I think it's more odd that Celestial wizards can't stun anything with Lightning Bolt or Lightning Storm. That might be worthy of a house rule.

>>44322969
>But fire spells are not napalm. Most of them are very short and small bursts of fire.

I smell a call for SCIENCE.

Fireballs are d10+3 in damage, right? Which is about the same damage as a bow shot, yeah?

So how much energy would need to be in a fireball to get comparable damage? Because, speaking from REAL unfortunate experience, I've had someone kick shit through a campfire and had my jeans catch light.

>>44322987

It's even more strange that armor stops electricity somehow.

>>44322931
>If I throw a fireball into a dry forest, will it not catch the forest on fire because apparently you have to be exposed to fire for two rounds for something to catch on fire?

The "On Fire" state is really just for characters. Unless you've got a seriously ridiculous GM, you should absolutely be able to set fire to things, especially if they're not mobile. The rules for being set on fire seem to refer to the situation where you're actually stuck in fire in some way.

>>44323043

Our group has always played it that any fire based attack had a percentage chance of catching it's target alight equal to it's Strength.

>>44322969
>But fire spells are not napalm. Most of them are very short and small bursts of fire. Definitely not enough to set clothes on fire.

Generally, I absolutely agree. A small burst of fire, boom, is very unlikely to set something on fire. But a GM should probably be prepared to arbitrate some situations, or so I'd argue.

>>44323006
>Because, speaking from REAL unfortunate experience, I've had someone kick shit through a campfire and had my jeans catch light.

Can absolutely happen, not even that hard. But assuming that fireballs are more explosive, there's a marked difference. Now, let's say, Flame Breath? That should probably be able to set clothes on fire, it's much more like what you describe, but even worse.

>>44323016
>It's even more strange that armor stops electricity somehow.

Faraday cage?

>>44323114
>Our group has always played it that any fire based attack had a percentage chance of catching it's target alight equal to it's Strength.

I like that idea, as long as they still can do an Agility Test to avoid it. It gives you a small chance to light things on fire even with a fireball.

>>44323016
Well why wouldn't it? Metal armour almost never touches skin and has cloth/leather underneath it, it would set your clothing on fire perhaps but not shock you.

>>44322869
>is there actually a limit to magical healing or not, or just the heal skill?

Rules never mention it. You only have the optional rule for healing heavy wounded characters.

But limiting it the same way Heal skill is limited makes sense.

Initiate of Myrmidia -> Knight of the Verdant Field -> Priest of Myrmidia -> Anointed Priest of Myrmidia -> Knight of the Blazing Sun. Is this the best way to go about hitting up to the Divine Lore of Myrmidia and get both Verdant Field and Blazing Sun?

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>>44323561
>But limiting it the same way Heal skill is limited makes sense.

I would like to limit it much the same way as they did in some of the WH40kRP games, or a variation thereof. What I was thinking was:

Magic healing is limited the same way the Heal Skill is, but you CAN heal more, but if you do, if the healing is "Arcane" magic, the recipient takes 1d5 Corruption, and if the healing is "Divine" magic, the healer himself takes 1d5 Insanity.

2) Magic healing and Heal Skill healing is not mutually exclusive, so a Priestess of Shallya could conceivably first use the Heal Skill, and then heal you through magic.

>>44323983
I wouldn't presume to say that it is, but it certainly looks thematically fitting. Not sure how I'd excuse a Knight of the Verdant Field traveling around, but that's honestly up to you, the GM, and the group.

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>>44324162
>Araby is currently being fucked with by Crusaders, namely a contingent of Bretonnians and Imperials who 'keep and eye' on the Arabyans.

When was the last crusade, anyway? Wasn't that a long time before Storm of Chaos? Add twenty years to that and I'd expect such occupation to either be formalized or assimilated.

>Tilia is still full of mercenaries and dicks.

Tilea was always full of mercenaries sucking dicks.

>>44324180

The Knights of the Verdant Field are sworn to protect Talabheim, true, but quite often the best defense is a good offense. Depending on the nature of the game, wandering about and finding information to send back to the rest of the order to have them prepared for things wouldn't be out of character, I think. They're still defending the city/province, it's just they're doing so as a long-range, long-duration scout.

>>44324258

Tilea is still full of mercenaries and dicks.

>pimps his work
http://www.liberfanatica.net/Tilea-Estalia.html

And vampires operating behind the scenes, sort of a Warhammer Santa Monica

>>44322987
I wish instead of Orgres we'd have had Goblin Khans of the wastes, and more stories exploring life as a Caravan Guard on journeys to Ind and Cathay

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>>44324426
I don't disagree, just wanted to voice potential issues that would have to be discussed. For all I know, the entire game could take place in Talabheim.

>>44324766
>http://www.liberfanatica.net/Tilea-Estalia.html
I still need to get into that one. There's something about it I don't like, that makes it not fit, but the content is good.

>>44324790
>I wish instead of Orgres we'd have had Goblin Khans of the wastes, and more stories exploring life as a Caravan Guard on journeys to Ind and Cathay
This raises a good question as to what goes on between the Empire and Ind/Cathay. Are there caravan routes just like there was in the real world? Because passing through the Chaos Wastes and the Ogre Kingdoms actually sounds way worse than passing through the Near East and the Middle East.

>>44324876
>I still need to get into that one. There's something about it I don't like, that makes it not fit, but the content is good

It had a long history, I wasn't the same person at the end of it as I was starting it. Also as its from many authors parts of it may not stack.

In terms of the routes... yeah. Another issue is the sea route is a lot poorer as well, you've Jungles and Undead blocking a chunk of Not-Africa from a stable route to the East.

In my preliminary notes for some Araby work I mused with having trade go through the Khemrian kingdoms and overland through parts of the Southland

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>>44324876

No need to go through Chaos Wastes. It still looks dangerous as shit.

Is anyone recruiting or wanting to run a WHFRPG game over IRC, by the way? I'd love to get a chance to play it, but my local RL group doesn't and my online groups don't have anyone who feels like they know enough fluff to run it other than me, and being a foreverGm is sad days.

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>>44324971
Sorry, meant the Dark Lands, not the Chaos Wastes. Derp.

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Apparently the empire has a large port colony in Araby.

How is the Lore of Ice btw?

I was debating various lores for my mage and the GM suggested it.

Yeah, I asked this a while ago (But it ended up with a giant argument about mages and if they are any good and I never got feedback on the lore itself).

I'm very new to the System.

>>44324258
>>Crusaders
There was a very recent one against Araby. They set up shop and kind of police the area, making sure Araby doesn't have the strength to threaten anyone. There were rumours of them rearming, so that was enough for a few lords to gather an army.

>>sucking dicks
But now they're extra peeved because Tobarro is under Bretonnian control. They don't have the force necessary to remove them.

>>44325945

Depends. Spells are very good but they have high casting values. With Magic 2 you won't be able to cast pretty much anything so better get used to Magic Dart.

The good part is that Ice Witches get Magic 4 on their 3rd career instead of 4th. But I doubt you will ever get so high anyways. If you do turn into a Frostfiend and slaughter everything.

The bad part is Glacial Surge that's far worse than getting insanity points or Minor Manifestations.

Anyways, out of 20 spells every lore gets the vast majority are bad. There are 2-4 spells per lore that are really good and worth casting. Celestial and Shadow wizards get more good spells than most.

In general magic in WH is casting the same spells over, and over and over again. With a little chance of very bad things happening to you every time you cast.

>>44325945
>How is the Lore of Ice btw?
It's solid. No pun intended. The big thing is that Glacial Surge is worse than what others get. Also, note that you'll have to be a Witch for it, which might be an issue if you're in the Empire and not Kislev, there's some info about that in Realms of Sorcery. Basically, you'll have to be a lot more careful than a sanctioned mage.

All Lores are pretty solid, though, so if you're definitely going for an arcane spellcaster, I'd focus on what kind of character you want to make, rather than what lore is the best. Don't forget all the other things you can do beyond damage, and remember that casting is dangerous, both mechanically and narratively.

Utility is your bread and butter.

>>44326225
Hyperbole. The vast majority isn't "bad" and you'll only keep casting the same spells over and over and over if you've got literally zero imagination.

DESU the most useful stuff for magic is utility, not to mention the magical senses wizards get.

Also

>a ounce of warpstone is worth 200 gold.

>>44326623
It always helps when your party retard, every party has one, opens that huge iron box and low and behold, a giant chunk of warpstone is inside it.

>>44326658
>huge iron box
>not lead

Did it have a thousand tiny legs and a tongue like mahogany?

>>44326671
It might. Maybe it's just hiding it so you can take the warpstone and make another box monster so it can have a friend.

>>44326583
>you'll only keep casting the same spells over and over and over if you've got literally zero imagination

No? Most spells really are either useless or very situational. Bright wizards get pretty much nothing but damage spells and three of them are obviously much better than all others. Metal wizards can rust things which is great but other than that they get almost nothing. It's like this for every lore.

>>44326751
Bright college
>Burning Vengeance
Cast on a henchman to cause him to be more easily swayed to betray his employer.

Hell theres at least 3 spells that help with affecting mood, a rash enemy is an enemy that makes mistakes. Or you can boost your allies abilities

>Cauterize
Stop your mates bleeding out


Metal
>Breach the Unknown
Fuck off GM, I'm not taking your cursed sword

>Enchant Item
Ok now that does indeed suck, measly +5 bonus

>Fools Gold
Sure mate, I'll pay for that armour with these wonderful gold coins

>Inscription
A good sideline in armour crafting awaits

>Law of Age
Bye doors!

>Transmutation of unstable mind
Dave, I can cure your fear of spiders

Wait...dodge blow is an Advanced skill? So you literally can't even attempt dodging without prior training?

>>44327066
He's the same shit poster that's been shitting up the last few threads. Ignore him.

>>44327076
Yep. I've been toying with the idea of making it a Basic Skill, so people can at least try. Maybe with an additional penalty, since Dodge is still a Free Action.

>>44326751
>Metal wizards can rust things which is great but other than that they get almost nothing. It's like this for every lore.

>Armour of Lead
>Curse of Rust
>Fault of Form
>Guard of Steel
>Inscription
>Law of Fucking Logic
>Tale of Metal
>useless!
>all useless!

I refuse to believe that you aren't the shitposter that's been following the thread around for it's past 4 incarnations. Because only that autist can be this fucking retarded, this consistently.

I applaud the fact that you actually tried to hide it by not being as abrasive as before, but fucking hell, 8/10, would be trolled again.

>>44327097
He's the DSP of WFRP, it seems. Refusing to find out how things work and then blaming the system for his shortcomings.

In all honestly I wish the magic was a bit more free form and open ended sorta like the magic from the WoD mage games but its a bit too in depth really.

>>44327076
>Wait...dodge blow is an Advanced skill? So you literally can't even attempt dodging without prior training?

Yeah, it's an oddity of the system. I suggest house-ruling it into a Basic skill, so you can at least attempt it at ½ Agility.

Not even being able to attempt to jump out of the way of whatever is trying to kill you is just fucking odd.

>>44327186
I'm not sure how you'd get that to work properly. I'm not opposed to changes to the magic system and I can see how it being more open could make it better, but in the context of the setting, you also need it to be intrinsically dangerous and restrictive.

It really comes down to what you mean by "free-form" and "open-ended". Because just having the WoD Mage games magic just wouldn't fly in this setting at all.

>>44327269
I just mean like each point of magic gives you more power like a fire wizard and make more fire come out or control a bigger amount. Metal ones can do more things to metal and to more metals etc. Along with specific spells there as well.

>>44327076

Literally every GM houserule this.

>>44327300
Yeah, I agree with that. A greater sense of progression within the lores would be nice. As it is, it just gets easier to do certain spells, but you still learn a full spell-list at once, which is nice, but you also lose that sense of progression.

It's my only major complaint when it comes to the spellcasting system so far, really.

>>44327340
When I GM I like to stay open for clever uses of magic. Like a Bright Wizard using their mastery over fire to calm an inferno consuming a house, to literally take the fire for their own and snuff it out if they choose. It certainly wouldn't be easy, but they only have to ask if it's possible.

Grimoires with strange magic spells make for good rewards too. If I think of a spell that I feel is interesting, I stick it in my WFRP folder for later use. Like a spell that masks your presence from other wizards, but reduces your Magic to 0 until you're ready to reveal yourself. A favourite of Shadow wizards and Vampires.

>>44327340
>>44327300
Sure you can crib some sort of Overbleed system ala Dark Heresy.

Extra damage or radius based on degrees of success, or duration or bonus to the characteristic test

>>44327066

Are you being serious? You just looked at fire spells list and found two utility spells. Yes, two. Out of 20. And Burning Vengeance has a cast value so high you won't be casting it until you are wizard lord.

No go look at the metal list again. Half of those spells again have cast time so high you are not using them until wizard lord. Other half provide laughable bonuses like +5%. Law of Logic is useful. Curse of Rust is useful. That's it.

>Fools Gold

Yeah, great spell. It's not like the dude you fucked with it is going to report an evil witch to the authorities. And there are so many alchemists running around right?

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>>44327446
Its not a perfect system but with a even a remotely decent gm and decent players it shines.

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>>44327446

>>44327097

>Armour of Lead

-10 penalty. Useful but nothing great really.

>Curse of Rust

Probably the best metal spell.

>Fault of Form

Are you serious? Waste your turn to cast a spell that removes armor piercing or impact at best for d10 rounds? Why not just rust that weapon instead? Only ever useful on really large weapon too big to just rust.

>Guard of Steel

-10 to hit. Wow.

>Inscription

VERY situational.

>Law of Logic

Useful but nothing groundbreaking.

>Tale of Metal

So you learned who made that sword. Completely useless 90% of the time. You only learn who and how made that item. Not things that happened when people were using them.

Lore of Metal is supposed to be the best utility lore. You are the alchemist who should be able to do a ton of very useful and fun things. You are nothing like that. So you can stack your debuff spells on a big bad so he gets -20 penalty on attack. What's the point? Just spam Curse of Rust. Why the hell would you ever cast anything else? Cause that guy to hit with -10 penalty or rust his weapon into uselessness. Is this even a question?

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>>44327446
>Half of those spells again have cast time so high you are not using them until wizard lord.

What occurred to me when I looked over the lists was the opposite - how many of these that would actually be useful quite early on.

>Other half provide laughable bonuses like +5%

You are beyond functionally retarded.

>>44327446
>Yeah, great spell. It's not like the dude you fucked with it is going to report an evil witch to the authorities. And there are so many alchemists running around right?

Oh wow, you actually think that someone is going to pull off Fool's Gold while wearing their wizard robes in front of the mark, and then hand over the gold themselves.

We all knew that you had zero imagination and want to play wizards as DnD demi-gods outclassing everything, and doesn't really have any interest in WHFRP as a setting, or a system that supports it, but that's some kind of prize-winning shit right there.

By the time my mates have given the Fool's Gold to bribe the bandits, we're going to be far gone, autist.

If you cannot see the obvious value of a solid utility spell because you're too caught up in damage numbers and obsessed with being reported to the authorities (because clearly this was used by the wizard himself in a populated area, dealing with an upstanding citizen of the Empire, hell, maybe even a Witch Hunter, durrr) you should probably find a better pastime than a hobby that actually requires you to think before you act.

Holy shit you're basic.

Now stop shitting up the thread, this has all been explained to you four times now.

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>>44327692
>-10 penalty "not great"
>-10 to hit "wow"
>removing special qualities is useless use curse of rust instead remember lore of metal sucks
>knowing where an item came from is completely useless
>curse of rust is so amazing in combat that nothing else matters and that's why lore of metal is useless

You're so useless it's sad. You wouldn't be able to roleplay your way out of a cardboard box and is about as inventive as a pair of cum-stained socks.

What do you get out of sitting all day and shitposting?

>>44327867
>>What do you get out of sitting all day and shitposting?

He ruins the threads and keeps people talking to him. That's about it. If people would just ignore him, we can get back to talking about the game, the world and other things.

>>44327867

Explain this you fucking retard. Why ever use spells that give -10 penalty when you can rust bad guy's weapon instead? Why? What's the point of all those spells that give penalties when all your metal wizard needs is Cure of Rust?

1/3 of the spells are useless from the start since there is never any reason to cast them over Curse of Rust. Amazing game design.

So you play a metal wizard to spam Curse of Rust and sometimes trick retarded people with Fool's Gold. And sometimes give skill bonuses. Amazing.

>>44327945
So I play a Halfling just to rob blind beggars, big woop, wanna fight about it

>>44327984

Yeah, because every halfling must be a thief.

>>44327945
Guard of Steel protects you from melee and ranged attacks.

Curse of Rust only affects items up to 75 encumbrance. A halberd is 175. A great weapon is 200. It isn't for every situation.

>>44327945

Quarterstaves, slings, bows, arrows, crossbows, clubs, banded clubs, plenty of spears, nets, lassos, bolas, whips, knuckle dusters, other spellcasters, people more than 12 yards away from you...

Hey guys, I'm new to WFRP, and while I've had an interest in Warhammer Fantasy for a while, I can't say I know nearly as much about the setting as 40k.

Are there any good sources to find out stuff like mannerisms, slang and whatnot concerning the Empire and its allies? (Dwarfs, Halflings, both not-dark Elves, and the surrounding nations)

Also, the more I've been reading on the setting at large, the more it seems like elves really shouldn't even be playable in WFRP, as any High Elves present in the Empire would be major players (i.e. not shit-tier peasant equivalents) and Wood Elves don't seem to like anyone that much. Am I wrong in assuming this? I'd love to see some info pointing to the contrary.

And on the same note, do humans and elves treat magic any differently mechanically other than that elves aren't really scrutinized by the Empire for practising at all?

>>44328184
>>slang
There are some slang words in Old World Armoury, I believe, mostly concerning money.

>>Elves
It's a bit harder to play an elf directly from Ulthuan, though the closest the rules allow you is to play one from the great merchant houses in the major cities of the Old World.

>>magic
They use it the same when it comes to the game mechanics, though elves don't require a license to practise it like humans do. Elves are feared and mistrusted for reasons all their own.

>>44328045

Everything with metal parts can be affected. You rust 75 enc worth of metal. Spears turn into sticks. Most crossbows use metal prods. Halberds and two handed axes lose their metal blades.

>>44328238
>Elves are feared and mistrusted for reasons all their own.

That reminded me of my last question; elves are fucking dicks, but do the humans KNOW the elves are fucking dicks? Or do they just dislike them because they look like borderline ayys?

>>44328184

You have specific elf careers that would explain why a high or wood elf would be there.

The major problem with Warhammer fantasy is the fact it don't really have good games. A lot of people got introduced to 40k through games.

Maybe Total War will change that.

>>44328261

It doesn't say 75 enc worth of metal; it says an object that weighs up to 75 enc.If it's not a metal object, you can't target it with the spell, and if the object as a whole weighs too much, you can't target it with a spell. Also, a spear without a head is likely to still have a sharpened point at the tip where it was attached. Most, but not all crossbows have metal prods; plenty are purely wood.

And never underestimate the hitting power of a hefty stick wielded by an angry man.

>>44328267
It depends on the area, really. Bretonnians who live close to Athel Loren would feel like these elves are coming to kill them, or steal their children in the night. A Nordlander might think an elf is there to raid and burn his homes. Elves are jerks, but they usually have purpose to that. It's like talking to someone who knows they're a lot smarter than you and they don't attempt to hide it at all. Being a cunt is part of who they are, and even the most humble of them are still jerks.

>>44324971
anon this map is gorgeous and you're my hero of the day. I was looking for a good res version of it since fucking 2005, seriously thank you

>>44324971
>extreme east
>to the fabled lumbria
is that a typo? why am I laughing?

>>44328540
Typo. It should be Lustria.

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>>44324971
>>44328340
I second this. It's an amazing map. Never really seen that one, I must say. I've mostly been using this one: http://www.gitzmansgallery.com/shdmotwow.html

>>44328625
tfw Gold Wizards are going to jump start chemistry into a proper science.

>>44328312

It says a metal object with 75enc. A spear is not a metal object. It only has a metal tip. So you target that tip as an object.

But this is really open for GM interpretation.

>>44328619

Maybe they call it Lumbria in the east.

>>44327945
>1/3 of the spells are useless from the start since there is never any reason to cast them over Curse of Rust.
>Curse of Rust is so powerful that I refuse to use anything else and that's why Lore of Metal and wizards are underpowered!

k.

Meanwhile, the rest of us will be right over here, making use of all the spells in different situations, alright? Great. You just stay over there in your hole and be autistic. No need to call us, we'll call you.

>>44328312
Actually, it says:

>You rust and corrode one metal object within 12 yards (6 squares) of you, making it pitted and useless. You can affect an object with an Encumbrance of 75 or less.

So yeah, you can target non-metal items, but you target a single object weighing up to 75 Encumbrance. So that's a single crossbow bolt or arrow, or the firing mechanism in a crossbow (if applicable), a single gun (which is unlikely to be completely metal), or an entire sword.

And so on.

So it's not quite as useful as some would have it be, but it's also not as useless as others would claim. It's a solid spell that is potentially abusable. It should probably have a higher casting number or a reduced range.

Or a variable range might be interesting; it's Touch, but the farther you want to cast it away from you, the higher the Casting Number?

>>44328847
Possibly, though I thought they would call it Rustria.

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>>44328625
I was using this one before, for an overview of the whole planet, but anon's there is as simple as it is effective.

>>44328865
>So that's a single crossbow bolt or arrow, or the firing mechanism in a crossbow (if applicable), a single gun (which is unlikely to be completely metal)

I think it's a safe assumption that you need to be able to see the object in order to affect it, meaning that the firing mechanism of the crossbow is likely out, and trying to focus on the tip of a spear at range might be hard if it's moving about a lot. Lots of potential interpretation issues, there.

>>44328865
Wonder if Dwarven Rune items, or magical items have a resistance to that?

>>44328929
I wouldn't want to be the guy casting it on a demon weapon

Aw shit, I didn't know that wfrp had the glorious revolution in it.

>>44328034
Of course they are.
Also every elf is a wizard.

>>44329023
>>I AM COMPLEEEEETE!

>>44329095
>you have freed me mortal, I shall grant you... This fine shrubbery and a trip to the Gilded Truffle


Byeeee!

>>44328929

I'd assume they do. Otherwise it would be way too broken.

>>44329126
The fine shrubbery has a terrible curse.

>At one point Karl Franz said to his son "Are you winning?"

Dadcore
a
d

>>44324971
That takes me back, used to have this on my wall but I have no idea when they actually released it.

How is it possible that bows are ordinary weapons but gunpowder weapons require training?

Isn't being very easy to use the entire point of early gunpowder weapons?

>>44329393
Bows don't need training, longbows do. You need to work those back muscles. You can also use any weapon you don't have training in but suffer -20% to WS or BS, depending on the weapon. I've always houseruled that you can use a gunpowder weapon, but only if it's loaded and you're unable to load it after you discharge it. To a person who isn't trained in its use, you could easily blow up the gun and your hands pouring in too much powder or any number of things that could go wrong because you don't know how it works.

>>44328929
or gold covered things... gold doesn't rust.
Basically a Slann can still beat you to death with his Golden Mace of awesomness.

>>44329642
If you get past legions of skinks.

>>44329642
Plaques, too, since they aren't technically magic items. They're far too powerful to be affected by magic spells.

>>44329642
On the other hand, how many people do you meet that swings a golden mace around?

This begs the question, what about stuff that doesn't rust, but oxidize in other ways?

>>44331083
I probably wouldn't allow it to work on gromril or ithilmar. Both metals are semi magical in nature, and you're almost as likely to see one as you would a magic item so it wouldn't be a huge game changer.

>>44329510

Bows are very hard to fire accurately. Much harder than firearms. It really makes no sense that bows are ordinary weapons while basic firearms aren't.

>>44331639
The point is that anyone can draw a bow and fire. Your accuracy is reflected by your Ballistic Skill, so it isn't the weapons fault if you miss. Firearms, on the other hand, are delicate pieces of equipment that can kill you if you don't use them properly. I have no training in using a black powder weapon, so I would either cause the weapon to jam or misfire, injuring myself in the process. Maybe even killing myself with it.

Also, think about the first time you fired a gun, if you have. You probably didn't hit anything with it. Most people aren't marksmen right off the bat. Just because you can look down the barrel of a gun doesn't mean you'll be accurate with it.

>>44331719
>The point is that anyone can draw a bow and fire

And fail to hit a guy standing 10m away. Training a good archer takes years. While you will be able to operate a matchlock properly after an hour.

And no, you won't kill yourself. Black powder burns slow. It's nothing like modern high pressure ammo.

>>44332006
You could miss a guy from ten meters away with a gun if you don't know how to aim properly either. Your stats reflect this, I'm not sure why this is so hard for you to understand. There are also rules for misfires, one result is that the gun explodes, doing damage to you that could kill you. I'm not even sure if you play this game at all. Do you just skim the rules and then shit post about them without any understanding?

>>44332062

No. I change stupid rules instead.

In standard rules firearms are so bad nobody would ever use them anyways.

>>44332138
>In standard rules firearms are so bad nobody would ever use them anyways.

Oh, look, it's our resident shitposter, what a surprise. Let's see, what thing is it that you don't understand in what order, now?

>>44332138
Then talk about it in the thread. You're the same guy who shits up every thread with nonsense complaints instead of discussing ways to change the rules. If you don't like them, tell us your house rules. Offer the thread your explanation of why it's bad and how you correct it instead of complaining like some asshole who is mad because his GM killed his character.

And firearms aren't bad, not at all. The only issue I have with them is reload time, but it isn't a big deal if you have Quick Draw and have several pistols in your belt.

>>44332208
He doesn't understand anything, least of all discussion about a roleplaying game.

The book says you should beat anybody who brings real world logic into the game with the book. Sadly this does not work over the internet.

>>44332208

Oh, look, it's our resident retard, what a surprise.

Firearms with quick reload fire once every two turns for SB4 + Impact and Unreliable.

Crossbow with quick reload fires once every turn for SB4.

Bow with quick reload fires up to 3 times per turn with SB3.

So you get 6 SB3 attacks instead on one SB4 attack with Impact.

Bow is ridiculously better. It's simple math. And you can use it without Specialist Weapon talent.

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>>44332414
Okay, shit poster confirmed. I had my doubts, maybe this guy is just retarded, but now I know he's doing this to ruin the thread by complaining without offering any discussion on how his complaints can be fixed. I recommend the rest of the thread ignore him.

New topic of discussion: What is your best and worst moments in WFRP? This could be any character and doesn't have to be the same one.

For me, my best character moment was fighting a Bretonnian fleet and winning. Sure, we barely came out on top, and my ship suffered 50% casualties, but we still won. Worst (at least in character) was when our party caused the death of a Slann and the destruction of his temple city. It felt like smashing a priceless vase or ripping an ancient painting. Even though my character was a total asshole, he knew that was some bad shit right there.

>>44332518

Facts are shitposting now. Fixing a broken system is shitposting. Whatever.

>>44332612
Facts are not shitposting. You not offering ANYTHING to fix said system is shitposting. You bitch and complain but suggest nothing.

Let's take your previous post >>44332471
>44332471
Tell us how you would fix firearms. It doesn't even have to be good. At least that we can work with.

>>44328540
>>44328619

I always assumed it was just a sign that people on that side of the world knew Lustria by the name of Lumbria.

>>44329142
We've played it so that generic magic items aren't. It's not as broken as it sounds. How many wizards do you really run into?

>>44332803
I suppose it's possible, but if that were true I would think that the Old World nations might have different names. As it stands, I think it was just a typo. Maybe if it was a completely different name, something like the Cathayan/Nippon word for the New World of Lustria and Naggaroth.

>>44332471
>Bow is ridiculously better. It's simple math
Yeah, and?

That's...pretty much how it worked. Bows and longbows were better weapons than pistols and muskets for a long while, until the weapons started to improve.

The reason firearms overtook bows as standard weaponry was training. The old adage was 'If you want to train a longbowman, start with his grandfather'. Using muskets was a much more intuitive process.

Shit, I dare say even today a professional archer might be able to fire arrows faster than a bolt-action rifleman could fire bullets - maybe. But I guarantee the archer would have had to train a shitload more than the rifleman to do it.

Pistols and rifles are just more convenient than bow weaponry.

>>44332874

It could be a hold over from the maps creation. Like, the map-maker didn't twig that the world was flat or that it wrapped around.

>>44333036
>Bows and longbows were better weapons than pistols and muskets for a long while

Complete bullshit. Even matchlocks shit all over bows and crossbows. Power and penetration is not even comparable.

>>44332471
And what would make you happy then?

You seem to think that Fire Arms are broken, based on your complaining. How would you fix that?

Upping their strength?

Giving them Armour Piercing?

Giving a BS bonus when using a firearm?

WHAT, MOTHERFUCKER, WHAT?

>>44333453
>Power and penetration is not even comparable.

Neither is range and accuracy. If you're close enough to hit with a matchlock pistol, you will definitely wreck shit.

But the guy with the bow and the crossbow will probably be able to have shot at you from a greater range.

Any history buffs want to give us a quick run down on how long pistols/muskets were out and about before they replaced bows and crossbows as the standard firearms, and why?

>>44333578
https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/lnwn9/why_people_used_muskets_over_crossbows/

tl;dr

One on one, a crossbow is the better weapon.

En masse in battle, muskets are superior.

Reasons:

1. Easier to make bullets than bolts.
2. A musket can be turned into a pretty decently functioning spear.
3. Although the crossbow is way more accurate, when you're in a group of 50 guys shooting at another group of 50 guys, you don't need to worry about accuracy. You'll hit something. It's speed of firing that is the real key.

>>44329176
>Karl Franz's son confirmed for Charlie Sheen.
>This is now my head canon.

>>44328929
In 'Stone and Steel' they specifically mention that the runes don't make the weapon any more durable than they were previously. As long as the rune remains intact, it is active.


MAGIC QUESTION:

Does the system, or any homebrew that you know of, do anything to simulate the 'Irresistible Force' that you see in WFB?

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>>44323138

Yeah, you get the chance to avoid it and you can always try to put it out on your turn.

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>>44333827
It was in Beast in Velvet if you want to see it, Franz is a p ok dad.

The book also features Sigmarite Seers, City Watch of Altdorf, and a democratic revolutionary movement.

>>44333827
You already miscast on doubles, triples, etc. Unless you institute a rule that enables enemy casters to stop your spells, Irresistible Force would be redundant.

>>44333898
Beasts in Velvet...is that the one with Dirty Harald and the guy with the glass skull with the inner flames?

>>44333500

One of GM's I played with gave all guns except pistols armor piercing 2. Other one made them ignore armor at short range. It kind of made them viable weapons.

>>44333930
Yeah senpai, and the tzeentch cultist ambassador from Cathay.

>>44334176
There was a Cathayan ambassador in the Nagash series. He was a dirty crook who wanted to bilk Lahmia out of all its money and take the city for itself. Was this guy an asshole too?

>>44333684

Longbow is a better weapon. Crossbow not so much. Crossbows with steel prods had very short power strokes. They lost power very fast with range. While crossbows with reflexive prods were very large and heavy.

And neither longbow nor crossbow could penetrate good armor. Even early firearms could. They also kill in a different way. Bolts and arrows cut and usually kill by loss of blood. Muskets often killed instantly with hydrostatic shock and blunt force trauma.

>>44334226
Cultist who worked to weaken the empire and cathay. Helped a revolutionary.

>>44333827
>Does the system, or any homebrew that you know of, do anything to simulate the 'Irresistible Force' that you see in WFB?

Official rules? Nope. Homebrew? Yes. I saw many versions of this.

Casters get counter-spell action that may work in many ways while double 10's cause irresistible force.

>>44334249
So an asshole in a different way, gotcha.
>>44334228
>>neither longbow nor crossbow could penetrate good armour
The French would disagree with you there. Sure the cards were stacked against them in some cases, but the longbow could be pretty deadly under the right conditions.

>>44334272
>The French would disagree with you there

Common myth. English longbow could never reliably penetrate good plate. Frogs lost battles due to other reasons.

>>44334301

Like being way, way too battle hungry. Thier knights were really big on rushing into areas that were terrible tactical locations because they really wanted to kill brits.

I can't blame them.

>>44334301
Like I said, cards stacked against them. The longbow itself didn't win battles, there were a tonne of other factors. Rain, mud, incompetent commanders. If a French knight is caught unawares or dumb enough to be in short range, then they're likely to die. This isn't a case of 'muh longbows' but a case of skilled people doing stupid things.

>>44322981
well the tl;dr of it is, they're high elves.

'sea elves' were given their own entry in the WFRP 1/WFB 3 bestiaries, but there was nothing radically different about their fluff even back then - they were just elves from the outer provinces of ulthuan, who have maritime economies and do all the trading with other nations, while the real high elves live in the provinces facing their inland sea and spend all their time sequestered in magic groves and spindly towers.

At some point GW decided this was a bit redundant so they all got rebranded as high elves. But though they stopped using the term the fluff never actually changed significantly - Ulthuan is a federation of several kingdoms with distinct cultural differences, and the average elf of Lothern is more likely to be a hard-headed and worldly sailor than some mystic from Saphery, so probably the high elf/sea elf distinction is a real thing that's common knowledge to elves. If you're a human from the Old World though, it's 10 to 1 that any elf from Ulthuan you meet is a 'sea elf'. There's no point having lots of different names for them.

>>44334383
That's part of why I like Warhammer elves. They aren't separate species, but one part of a whole. Political factions that have divided over centuries of conflict or those who live in different parts of the world, much like humans. We don't have moon humans or under humans, we just have different nationalities and such. An elf from Ulthuan is still genetically the same as one from Athel Loren or Naggaroth. Sure there's some differences like hair colour and paleness, but they are the same group of people like Anglos.

>>44334383

Sea elves and night elves are still a thing. GW just decided they are not different enough for army books or much mention in fluff.

>>44328313
Bretonnians who live close to Athel Loren do not associate the fay who murder anyone who goes into the forest with the elves who trade at distant seaports. They literally don't know they're the same species.

>>44328751
If you think about it, if alchemy and all its associated mumbo jumbo actually worked then nobody would have any reason to discover real chemistry.

>>44334513
That's why I mentioned another example. The areas near Athel Loren are landlocked, but a Bretonnian who travels and sees a tall, slim person with pointed ears might make a guess that this person isn't normal. Maybe he's here to fuck up your life in a different area, who knows. It's their ignorance that fuels such suspicions. Pointed ears? He's a sorcerer that desires the blood of your babies.

It's the same with the different elven kindreds. Men don't exactly know the difference between High, Dark and Wood Elves because of how little information they have on these people. Even the Dwarfs aren't even sure, though they don't really care in a lot of cases.

>>44332208
It's tempting to assume that everyone who finds themselves arguing the thread consensus is the same person, but I've noticed at least three regular WFRP dissenter voices (spell-anon, gun-anon, 3e apologist). Some of them might even be the same people making posts that contribute to the conversation in ways you approve of!

>>44334451
I don't remember night elves, what was their deal?

>>44334721
Those three are all the same person. They all complain but never offer any suggestion on how their complaints can be fixed. When confronted with this, they respond with more bait.

>>44334784
The last time I posted my houserules in a wfrp thread it caused about the same kind of shitstorm as I usually get for suggesting 2e has problems in the first place.

In the end all my issues with the system were easily fixed, by adapting the setting and some published adventures to other games.

>>44334883
Which were? I wouldn't have a problem with someone if they posted their fixes, even if I didn't agree with them. Unless you're completely changing the entire system, in which case you might better be off playing a different game entirely.

The thing is you complain but don't offer any way to fix your complaints. This is a discussion. Post your fixes and the thread can work with it, rather than be repulsed by your inability to stop bitching. I doubt everyone would agree with the way my 'canon' is going, but I still put it out there.

>>44334883

What sort of house rules do you use?

Or are you the Armour Save guy?

If so - there's nothing wrong with the suggestions - they're just bad ideas. But they are ideas. It's better to come up with something shitty than to just complain about the system without offering anything at all.

At worst, you're at least offering food for thought for people to consider.

>>44334999
>>44334883
god, we had a grip of them but it was a while ago.

Off the top of my head:

- failed spellcasting rolls cause damage (tzeentch's curse is toothless)
- active defences (dodge/parry) need to roll over the attacker's roll as well as under the defender's skill
- no proficiency required to use firearms
- "average" skill test % changed to characteristic +20, untrained basic skills test on unmodified characteristic instead of at 1/2. same for proficient/non-proficient weapon attack rolls.
- weapon stats completely rewritten but i don't remember how exactly
- a lot of racial characteristic bonuses replaced with free talents, e.g. dwarfs roll 2d10+20 for WS but then all start with Warrior Born. evens out character growth potential between races.
- career exits and trapping requirements generally handwaved for what makes sense narratively. no entering advanced careers without filling out your advance scheme though. I think every GM does this a bit.

>>44335273
>active defences (dodge/parry) need to roll over the attacker's roll as well as under the defender's skill

Do you use the Degrees of Success with this? Or is it just a way to make it harder to dodge people with a high WS?

>- no proficiency required to use firearms

I play the same way. You don't need a proficiency to fire the gun, but you need it to reload it properly.

>>44335273
>>failed casting causes damage
I wouldn't agree with that. Your wizard would die so quickly. I would say that a change to the miscast tables be a bit more dangerous, perhaps counting doubles as triples, triples at quads, etc. That way it's more dangerous but without killing a character for every failed attempt.
>>active defences
Shouldn't it be both under the attacker's roll and defender? Degrees of success and whatnot.
>>firearms
I still maintain that you need adequate training for them. You can fire it, but you can't reload it without the proper knowledge. Even if you think you can't kill yourself with black powder, you could still cause a misfire that jams your gun or just doesn't fire because you didn't know how to load it properly.
>>skill tests
These should always be based on the GM's discretion. If you don't have a basic skill, it isn't at half, you just suffer -10%.
>>weapon stats
If we don't know how, that's a big can of worms that we can't discuss at the moment. Even if we did, that's still a big can of worms.
>>racial traits
I think they're fine at the moment. Elves and Dwarfs are always more skilled than humans, barring a few exceptions. In the tabletop, no human except a Bretonnian or Chaotic character (even though they skirt the line of human), or a special character, can exceed WS 6.
>>career exits and trappings
That depends on you and your GM. Personally I don't require my players to get every single thing unless it makes sense for their advancement. Take an Explorer. It requires a horse, but if they explore the oceans, what good is a horse but on land? It's always case by case for me.

>>44335458
>It's always case by case for me.

We do something similar with the advancements. You don't need to take all of them, as long as what you've taken makes sense for what career you're going into.

>>44335419
Oh right, that was another one. We changed it so that degree of success = the number on the tens die. Essentially you want to roll as high as you can without going over your effective skill.

You'd be surprised how much it speeds things up not to have to do the subtraction.

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>>44335736
I prefer that people complete their Main advancements, simply so they don't blow through careers, but whatever works for the group is key. If the GM and the players agree on it, the rules come secondary.

>>44335458

I think it would honestly be better if elves were WS 25/BS 25 rather than 30. Makes them a bit less overwhelming in ranged combat while not making them feel like a bad idea to go melee (What with elves having such strong melee history with stuff like swordmasters and wardancers)

>>44335809

*rather than BS 30

>>44335809
>>44335825
You could probably do that depending on which kindred of Elf your player chooses. If they want to be from Ulthuan, they might get WS 30+. From the forests of the Old World, 30+ BS. I've toyed with the idea of granting similar skills and talents like in Knights of the Grail or Sigmar's Heirs. An elf from Saphery will have different skills from an elf from the remains of Nagarythe or Eataine. Adding skills like Warrior Born or Strong Minded could spice it up, if your player so chooses.

>>44335789
>We changed it so that degree of success = the number on the tens die

Interesting. Mechanically it's balanced the same way.

Seems like a simple little change that improves the system. Smart thinking. Might give it a try with my group.

>>44335458
>I wouldn't agree with that. Your wizard would die so quickly.

Well, it was a single wound. Not going to kill anyone outright, just a deterrent to spell-spamming.

>You can fire it, but you can't reload it without the proper knowledge.
Well sure, you need some instruction. That's not much compared to the amount of practice you need to use a bow effectively and the system isn't well equipped to handle degrees of nuance here. I think Id just play it by ear and say characters of certain backgrounds can't use guns until someone shows them how, but it doesn't cost them exp to learn.

>Elves and Dwarfs are always more skilled than humans, barring a few exceptions. In the tabletop, no human except a Bretonnian or Chaotic character (even though they skirt the line of human), or a special character, can exceed WS 6.

That's not a good justification for making them flatly superior in the game, imo. If WFB dictates that an elf hero is the equal of any human lord, then that just means the range of characters playable in WFRP reaches the top end of the human power scale but tops out at the middle for elves.

>>44335914

Well, they have 1 less effective lives than humans do. That hurts them.

>>44335926
Balancing immediate effectiveness against longevity is also a design decision that is not to my taste, but it was when I started evening out the Fate Point allowance that I started thinking there had to be a better way.

>>44335994

Well, it's also rerolls.

>>44335914
>>a single wound
Well that's more acceptable. I thought you were talking about multiple wounds
>>guns
It's still a touchy issue. It's mostly a gameplay mechanic that can easily open the floodgates for other skills and talents. If I can learn this, why can't I learn that?
>>elves and dwarfs
There are drawbacks to both. Elves suffer from less Fate Points, which can be pretty huge considering Elves can have 1 and Humans can have 3. Dwarfs can't be the 'Party Face' and can't dodge for shit. They both also suffer from certain stigmas, though in different degrees. That's a GM thing to do rather than being an on paper thing.

For example. An elf enters Barak Varr. He must pay twice the tariff and twice as much for goods and services, if he's allowed entry at all. A dwarf may be refused service entirely by an elf.

>>44335873

What I'd do is likely make it so that fortune points are not randomized. So that elf is ALWAYS going to be less than a human. Rather than a poor human being less than a good elf.

Fortune points being randomized is honestly not something I like in general due to how important they are.

>>44336081
Well, fortune points aren't randomized. They're derived from the amount of Fate Points your character has. At most, at the beginning, an elf will have 2. At the very least, at the beginning, a human will have 2.

>>44336139

Fate Points are randomised, Fortune Points derived from Fate. Fortune points are randomised.

But personally I don't think characters in WFRP should inherently be balanced.

>>44336466
Even so, humans will always be equal to or better to elves when it comes to Fate/Fortune points.

If you're dedicated to making a bigger distinction between elves and humans, I suggest my previous post of using the different Elven kingdoms to provide different Skills and Talents at the players choice.

What's a good horror campaign/one-shot to run in WFRP?

>>44337007

I imagine a lot of CoC scenarios could work well with WFRP.

wow, I go away for several hours and there's half-thread worth of shitposting

can't they make anti-autist captcha or something? something like "pick good traditional games"
pictures: AoS, WHFB, WFRP, Monopoly
whoever clicks first or last can't post. and gets banned, because fuck them.

>>44338443

As an autist, I don't enjoy either the first or the last.

Your captcha idea has clearly failed.

>>44338497
well, it's supposed to be anti- what /tg/ calls autists, not what doctors call autists

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what's your thoughts about this?

on one hand, it looks kinda cool, the effect is awesome, and I can finally have some useful musician in Wardan... Bladedancer unit.

on the other hand, this requires a Lord-level character (even though Bladedancer Prince would eat vampire counts for dinner), and he gotta stick with his Bladedancer unit, which means you only get to use one dance per turn, not two.

your thoughts?

so, do I remember it right, that Warhammer world is supposed to be much larger than our, so Empire is more like Europe-sized, instead of Germany-sized?

how would you judge the size of Athel Loren in that case?

>>44324790

These do exist, the Hobgoblins that live east of the Mountains of Mourn, some of their leaders even take the name khan.

>>44324876

There are mentions of things such as the Ivory Road and the Silk Road in Monstrous Arcanum and Tamurkhan, the latter even featuring a Cathayan bastion that overlooked the Silk Road and was attacked by a Chaos sorcerer and his forces.

>>44328184

Elves are superior magic users, able to use all eight winds and even use them combined as High magic. Humans can only make use one of one wind, any more and bad things start to happen.

>>44338443

It's kind of funny how bad /tg/ has become with dealing with certain types of people, at least as far as the Warhammer community goes.

Instead of actually admitting that what someone says has merit or just flat out saying you don't like something, it has become preferable to puff out your chest and accuse them of being some great evil.

Can't believe you actually had people in the last thread calling for reports, that's some hugbox shit.

>>44332138
Firearms are strong but never worth the price, which is ok anyway.
Guns and muscets are suppose to be very rare and difficult to make. Carrying a gun is a status symbol.

>>44334228
>And neither longbow nor crossbow could penetrate good armor.
Bull. Shit. This comes down to what you consider "good armour", but armour eventually became so impractical precisely because they had to compensate for the penetrative power of the longbow but *especially* the crossbow.

>Even early firearms could.
Not even close. The only major benefit of early firearms was their usage by masses of untrained soldiers or peasants, which is why they won over the others.

>Bolts and arrows cut and usually kill by loss of blood.
Not true, they were actually traumatic as fuck, but they also filled the hole they made. If you die to bleeding, it's internal.

>Muskets often killed instantly with hydrostatic shock and blunt force trauma.
False. Bleeding was more common, but they were also more traumatic than arrows, and didn't split in the way a crossbow bolt could, and if you didn't die from the shot and the bleeding, you died from being filled up by shrapnel as the bullet deformed.

If firearms should be getting bonuses to anything, it should be to poorly armoured opponents.

>>44339384
>Elves are superior magic users

No, they are not. It's stated the Chaos sorcerers are more powerful mages than the Elf mages (mary sues not accounted for). Their displays of magical prowess would make the Elves pointy jaws drop.

Humans > Elves.

>>44340043

Where is that stated?

That's also really not 'Human' so much as 'chaos'. A Chaos Elf would have the same power if not more.

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>>44338443
>Monopoly
But.. I actually.. like Monopoly. Q_Q

>>44338953
>so, do I remember it right, that Warhammer world is supposed to be much larger than our, so Empire is more like Europe-sized, instead of Germany-sized?
>how would you judge the size of Athel Loren in that case?

Actually, someone did a comparison in one of the other threads, and the size of the Old World is almost *exactly* the size of Europe. Also, I did my own comparison between the Empire and the Holy Roman Empire, and they match up very well.

The Empire is about the size of modern-day Germany, maybe slightly bigger.

>>44339384
>Instead of actually admitting that what someone says has merit or just flat out saying you don't like something, it has become preferable to puff out your chest and accuse them of being some great evil.

The problem is that it doesn't have merit. If it did, it would've been acknowledged. The autist we're talking about has been shitposting in every single thread so far (except the first, I think). He's had certain things explained to him in detail every time, by virtually all other participants, only to come back with the exact same bait the next thread.

>Can't believe you actually had people in the last thread calling for reports, that's some hugbox shit.

No other way to get rid of him. It's not some hugbox shit; being off-topic and baiting is against the rules of the board and disruptive to the threads.

Nobody gives a shit about a lone shitposter, but when he's expressly there to be disruptive, there's really nothing else to do than to report him and move on, which I still encourage people to do.

>>44340095
The lore about Chaos Sorcerers. So the Chaos rulebooks.

And we already have "Chaos" Elves in the form of Dark Elf sorceresses who draw on the power of raw Chaos to manifest their spells.

Compare their stats with Chaos sorcerers

>>44340043

As the anon above stated, I was going off the presumption that one was talking about an Empire Wizard.

If you're Chaos or don't care about what bad shit could happen to you for dabbling in more than one wind, then I suppose it could be argued that the two races are on equal footing.

>>44340181
I think it would impossible for an elf to fully draw upon the power of Chaos since Slaanesh would instantly slurp them up.

This makes human Chaos sorcerers superior by default.

>>44340177
UMMMM!

Dark Elves don't worship Chaos! I don't think you're up to date on their fluff, but Dark Elves only worship the darker gods of the Elven pantheon. Not the Chaos Gods. Slaanesh even eats Elf souls, so they'd be dumb to worship hir

>>44340218
See
>>44340203

I never said that they worship Chaos. I mean that they use raw Chaos, rather than winds of magic, to power their spells. So technically, they are Chaos Sorcerers

>>44340177

>The lore about Chaos Sorcerers. So the Chaos rulebooks.

Can you find the quote that says they are better?

>>44340177

Dark Elf Sorcs are a lot better. They have access to a lot more magic than Chaos Sorcs do.

Why would Slaanesh slurp up the elves? That's some 40k shit right there. There's even slaaneshi cults amongst the dark elves.

Chaos elves aren't common, but they're real.

>>44340258
>There's even slaaneshi cults

The pleasure cults have little to do with Slaanesh. Slaanesh might have inspired them but the rites and worship is directed to the Elven goddess of pleasure.

>>44340231

The only Chaos magic that exists is that used by those associated with Nurgle, Tzeentch, or Slaanesh.

Dark Elves use Dark magic which essentially seems to be smashing the various winds together for the desired effect or winds themselves mingling together and losing their qualities and having settled somewhere.

>>44340258

Eldar are basically space elves. It's not too far out to believe that to certain entities souls have a particular quality or taste and that Elven souls are at least among the finest, if not the finest, making them the perfect target for Slaanesh.

Dark Elves stopped having Slaanesh cults in 7th Edition, probably to help them be a force in their own right and not have Chaos behind everything. Could also argue that it would be dumb for some Dark Elves to worship Slaanesh when they or their ancestors would have been present during the first Chaos invasion and possibly fought against it.

>>44340287

The Dark Lore is Disharmony in the winds of chaos, all of the intermingling in conflicting ways. It's chaos but not Chaos.

High magic is Harmony in comparison, drawing on all the magic and weaving into a beautiful tapestry.

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>>44340287
>Dark magic

Dark magic IS Chaos. Chaos breaks apart into the winds of Magic when it enters the world. Dark Magic happens when raw Chaos does not break apart.

>ark Elves stopped having Slaanesh cults in 7th Edition

Which is odd considering that the 8th ED elf army book credits Chaos with the rise of the cults.

>>44340325

It's iffy if they mean 'Dark as in the Lore' or 'Dark as in the general term for evil, nasty magic' there.

It's the issue with having such a generic name for your lore.

>>44334999
>there's nothing wrong with the suggestions - they're just bad ideas

They were still better than what you get in the official system.

>>44340287
>>44340286
This is why 6th edition is still best edition.

And the Slaanesh eating elf souls thing is from 8th ed.

>>44335914
>just a deterrent to spell-spamming

I never got this. Spellcasters should not cast spells? What is the point of playing them?

Magic being very dangerous would make sense if spells were actually powerful. Like in Shadowrun. Warhammer spells are not powerful. At all.

Risking damage to cast a spell that does less damage than your team soldier does per round without any risk is stupid.

>>44339976
Armour became good enough to stop longbows before full plate was even fully developed.

Its only vulnerable in situations where there are thousands of archers firing and it becomes a numbers game. An arrow hitting the few weak spots is unlikely until they are coming at you that often. In normal situations you are effectively impervious.

>>44340366
>What is the point of playing them?
You want to wear your pointy hat?

>>44340287
>Eldar are basically space elves.

Absolutely, but it's still not the same thing, setting-wise. The elves did not spawn Slaanesh through their debauchery and the elves aren't super-psychers that either torture others to rejuvenate themselves or maintain strict focus lest they fall apart morally and psychologically.

>Dark Elves stopped having Slaanesh cults in 7th Edition, probably to help them be a force in their own right and not have Chaos behind everything.

We go by fluff, though, not which specific edition of the wargame they stopped having this or that.

>Could also argue that it would be dumb for some Dark Elves to worship Slaanesh when they or their ancestors would have been present during the first Chaos invasion and possibly fought against it.

And humans have such struggles in much more recent memory, yet they have no trouble getting tangled up in cults and stuff.

I'm not saying that elven chaos cults are just as common - it is clear that the elves, much like eldar in 40k, have a much stricter approach to life and a much greater understanding of the forces of chaos, and are thus less likely to fall under it's sway, whether there still are slaaneshi cults amongst the dark elves or not.

But there most definitely are chaos elves and elves can most definitely get affected by chaos, it's just that much like chaos orks and chaos dwarves and so on and so forth, we see extremely, extremely little of them, if anything.

Something I've personally always considered to be sad. Seeing a high elf army that have fallen so deep into the worship of Khaine that they are now practically worshipping Khorne without realizing it was always something I wanted to see.

>>44339976

Literally every single thing you said is wrong.

Seriously, go read some actual book on the subject.

>>44340366
Go away. Nobody likes you. You've had this explained to you countless times now.

>>44340375

So you play wizards because you want to play wizards even if they are shit mechanically?

I knew a lot of players who wanted to play magic users. After a game or two every single one of them was incredibly disappointed.

>>44340402

By the same idiot who think magic is perfectly fine even though every single player who played a mage in Warhammer disagree. And I met dozens of them over a decade of playing Warhammer rpg.

You can pretend that magic system is fine but it's simply not.

>>44340311

Really should just call it Dark magic since the word chaos usually refers to having to do with one of the four gods.

What you said pretty much matches what I said, High is weaving and Dark is smashing it together or the winds pooling together into a mix. I was using the information provided in Realms of Sorcery since off the top of my head neither the 8th Edition rulebook, Vampire Counts army book, Dark Elves army book, or Wood Elves army book actually bother to explain the intricacies of Dark magic.

>>44340325

And this is the explanation that is also given in the 8th Edition rulebook, pretty much that Dark magic is a combination that just settles in apparently bad places. Doesn't make mention of the smashing part probably since Necromancers and Vampires just draw on what is available and tell it what to do, they don't care or are incapable of weaving winds together besides perhaps Death and Dark.

>>44340365

Only if you really want Chaos to be behind everything and throw a tantrum because something was taken from 40k, which started out as pretty much Fantasy in space.

Personally I could take either and go with Slaanesh having no involvement because it's most recent.

>>44340383

>Absolutely, but it's still not the same thing, setting-wise. The elves did not spawn Slaanesh through their debauchery and the elves aren't super-psychers that either torture others to rejuvenate themselves or maintain strict focus lest they fall apart morally and psychologically.

Which has nothing to do with the fact that they could have tasty souls.

The wargame influences the lore and for me the newer takes precedence over the old when the two contradict.

What you say later in your post about Elves having a better understanding of Chaos compared to humans is why I even offered the second argument as a possibility.

Chaos Dwarfs don't worship the Chaos gods either, but Hashut. This is one of problems with Chaos coming to mainly mean the four gods.

>>44340416
>>Only if you really want Chaos to be behind everything
Yeah, because that totally wasn't a thing in 7th/8th.

End Times never happened.

>>44340416
>Chaos Dwarfs don't worship the Chaos gods either, but Hashut.
Hashut -is- a Chaos god.

>>44340405
Sure.
A good comparison is Discworld Magicians.
They avoid using Magic like the plague.
At least, the long lived ones do.

>>44340432
well, some of Raistlin's most awesome moments were magic-less.

>"Do not touch me, I am magi."
for instance.

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>>44340385
I'm going to just assume that you're confusing the context with modern bullets, rather than what we're actually talking about, because the option is that you're fucking retarded.

>>44340425

There is Chaos being a major force whose actions cause ramifications of their own and there is Chaos literally being behind something. I'd classify Morathi as being a Slaanesh worshiper and corrupting or helping to corrupt those around her as the latter.

>>44340431

But not one of the big four.

Like I said, it's the problem with the definition of Chaos since it has come to pretty much mean the four gods and not refer to the Realm of Chaos and the entities who dwell there. The Skaven suffer from it as well because a lot about them falls under the second definition of Chaos, but not the first, at least at this point, may have been different in earlier editions.

Chaos in 40k is pretty much focused on Chaos Space Marines, the vast majority of which are pledged to one of the four gods, worship them as a pantheon, or are actually renegades and Daemons which come exclusively so far from the four gods. This has really boxed in what Chaos has come to mean outside of things like Furies (Who now get used by the gods, which makes sense in the context of army building) and the Forge of Souls.

>>44340460
>Like I said, it's the problem with the definition of Chaos since it has come to pretty much mean the four gods and not refer to the Realm of Chaos and the entities who dwell there.
Only in 40k.

>>44340432

Not who you are arguing with but I will say that with the sheer investment involved in getting to be a good mage, telling the player 'Now never use your hard won things except in the most dire situation' is a bit shitty.

Doubly so when magic isn't impressive enough to be a 'Desperate times means I need to use this to win' when most spells are not so impressive as to warrant that.

Not saying that magic in fantasy is shit. Just that punishing casting spells even more feels like a step too far.

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>>44340414
>By the same idiot who think magic is perfectly fine
Nobody said that.

>even though every single player who played a mage in Warhammer disagree.
Not even close.

>And I met dozens of them over a decade of playing Warhammer rpg.

I refuse to believe that anyone kept playing with you more than two sessions, owing to your rampant autism on a wide range of subjects.

>You can pretend that magic system is fine but it's simply not.
The system has issues, but nowhere near what you ascribe it.

This has been covered extensively, multiple times, throughout at least five separate threads, and explained to you in detail. There's really nothing else to say on the subject.

You're autistic. We get it. Big whoop.

>>44340441

Mind you, most mages won't have the fellowship or intimidate to pull that off. The Wizard classes don't really give you a whole heap outside spell slinging and a little lore.

>>44340460
>But not one of the big four.

It does not matter. He is a Chaos God, like the Horned Rat, born of the Chaos God.

A upjumped daemon.

I don't get your obsession to isolate sub-factions of Chaos from Chaos itself.

>>44340416
>Chaos Dwarfs don't worship the Chaos gods either, but Hashut. This is one of problems with Chaos coming to mainly mean the four gods.

Hashut is a chaos god, though. But I know what you mean. I didn't mean to imply that it had to be the big four. There can be all kinds of cults for all kinds of chaos gods, theoretically. I just mean that there can absolutely be chaos elves.

>>44340488

I'm running a series of one-shots January and then a campaign of this in the coming months.

I most commonly in this thread see people shitting on magic as un-worth it and then seeing accusations it's just the one troll railing against it.

How would a variable power to spells feel? Treat what's printed as the base and then under certain conditions add an "exploding die" kind of thing like when ya keep rolling 10s for dmg, or something like that. Possibly force tertiary Spell checks or allow them to continue casting to "Charge" an extra level of the spell, amplifying both effects and danger.

Lures the players in more, but idk how to go about instituting that cleanly without it being OP.

2nd Edition btw, using the books kindly linked in this thread, thanks Anon! (>^,^)>

>>44340498
that's actually lame.

given peasant cattle's attitude towards magic and their exceeding ignorance/stupidity, wizards should get massive Intimidate bonus

>>44340456

Go read what people from the period thought about firearms. They were far more dangerous than bows and crossbows.

And in case you don't know rifling existed since the early days of firearms. They were just too expensive for common soldier. Breech loaders also existed since medieval times. Henry VIII had a breech loader.

And have you ever hunted with a bow or crossbow? They don't drop animals instantly. They don't cause hydrostatic shock. They have no stopping power. Bows don't work like in movies where you hit a bad guy and he drops instantly. Most of the time even a small deer will keep running for some time.

And even simplest muzzleloaders beat the best crossbows in penetration.

>>44340528

Fire Lore Mages will be able to do it (Lore Skill). As will Ice Witches (Class skill)

Others? Not so much.

>>44340497

Oh, you are the same fag with the ebin reaction images. Seriously go away.

>>44340542

Bright wizards lore skill is Command not Intimidation.

>>44340498
>"Do not touch me, I am magi."
>most mages won't have the fellowship or intimidate to pull that off.

>implying you need fellowship or intimidate to tell people that you're a mage or make use of the fact that your hair is on fire or that you've got moss growing out of your hair

k

>>44340567

Most peasants will be as likely to mob and kill you as being afraid of you.

>>44340567
Anon here has it, you determine check's difficulty for a reason.

Even assuming a 30 in fellowship, halved, that's 35 if it's a +30% Difficulty. Can you be positive the DM will give it to you? Absolutely not.

Can you shoot fire and then be like "Check yourself, bitch" and try though? Yes. And you fucking should.
LET THE CHAOS FLOW THROUGH YOU
CAST SPELLS WRECKLESSLY 420 ERRDAY[/SPOILER].

>>44340567
>you've got moss growing out of your hair
what's that has to do with magic?
like when I was working on my final year project at uni, with hardly leaving my room for weeks at time...

>>44338953

All of the Old World is about the size of Europe.

>>44339536

THIS.

>>44340349

Depends on the idea. The armour save one is clearly flawed without a serious refit of the entire combat mechanic.

>>44340471

I wish I could agree. A lot of new Warhammer players see it the same way. Telling them that Hashut and the Horned Rat are of Chaos just gets blank looks.

That being said, I'd say Chaos Worshippers can come from any nation. Dark Elf cults to Slaanesh. High Elf spearmen who have formed a cult to Khorne. Dwarfs who've succumbed to the allure of Nurgle.

It wouldn't be the norm, certainly, but the thing about Chaos is that it corrupts. None are immune to it's influence. Though Lizardmen certainly come close.

>>44339536
b-but what about awesome gunslinging, like Witch Hunter guy in Vermintide trailer?

>carry a bunch of pistols on yourselves
>shoot right-hand pistol
>shoot left-hand pistol
>draw another pistol right-handed and shoot
>rinse-repeat until you run out of pistols/targets

>>44340638
Similarly commentary being made in the Battlefleet Gothica thread about "short warp jumps."

Honestly no vidya is going to bend over backwards to canon, they couldn't succeed if they tried and the same people would be upset regardless.

Not worth the price of "raelism" which you may see discussed towards the beginning of the 2nd edition core.pdf; you could almost call it verisimilitude rather, or should I say, verminilitude.

>>44340666
what's unrealistic about WH in VT trailer?

apart from cost/weight of all them pistols, not counting ammo

>>44340638
For adventuring pistols are similar in practical use as crossbows.
You usual blow your load and then go into close combat. If you want to keep attacking at distance, bows are better, cheaper and more reliable.

>>44340680
More of the in-universe feasibility or likelihood. WH40K short span warp jumps are totally plausible--Tau do them exclusively//but the Imperium probably doesn't, and similarly, witch hunters probably don't just go through a massive brace of pistols disgarding guns like they're spent condoms.

That being said I was rising to the defense of something that didn't need defending, on 2nd read Anon wasn'trying to make an argument about "un-raelistic faytures," as I had suspected.

Apologies, Anon.

>>44340704
>Tau do them exclusively

No, they don't. See (>>44340708).

>>44340615

There was a refit though. Your TB is less effective but there are armor saves instead.

One of the most retarded things about this system is that players can have higher TB than dragons and giants.

>>44339536
>Firearms are strong but never worth the price, which is ok anyway.

First of all they are not strong. They are the worst ranged weapons.

And second they should not be that expensive. One of the reasons why muskets replaced all other weapons is the fact that they are not expensive and their ammo is far cheaper and easier to produce.

>>44340842
>worst ranged weapons
>cheaper than than bows and crossbows
Ok, I just hide you.

>>44339976
>Bull. Shit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76mbOMFjlu0

Where are you getting your info? History Channel? Youtube LARPers who use their modern composite crossbows against shit chinese armor replicas from eBay?

>>44340822

So a guy wearing full plate would have a 5+ armour save on a d10 right?

And a peasant swinging for, say 10 damage would have a 50/50 chance of either doing nothing or a whopping 10?

I mean, that's clearly silly. How do you balance it?

As far as players having a higher TB than dragons and giants, it's a bit of a mixed bag. A standard dragon has a TB of, what? 5 or 6? But they've also got Scales (5) for an effective TB of 10 or 11.Giants do have a mere TB of 5, but there is one massive thing you're forgetting.

Dragons and Giants have wounds in the 50s. TB is effective damage reduction to represent how well you take a blow. How many wounds will a maxed out character have? Half that? At best?

Toughness and Wounds work together to represent a characters constitution. But it depends on how you enjoy running combat. Most of the people who have an issue with the low TB raise it (usually with the 'Unnatural' trait copied over from 40k) but then lower the wounds to balance it out.

>>44340497

I refuse to believe that you played more than 5 sessions with wizard PC's.

The main complaint I hear is that magic is nothing like in FB.

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>>44340588
>Most peasants will be as likely to mob and kill you as being afraid of you.

You win some, you lose some.

>>44340876

So you literally have no idea what you are talking about. Good crossbow requires very good quality steel for the prod. And good longbows take months to make.

Muskets don't need high quality steel. Black gunpowder has very low pressure.

>>44340881

You didn't even read that post.

Armor piercing and SB of 4+ reduce armor saves. And if save fails you still have armor points. But you use half of your TB.

>>44340885

>The main complaint I hear is that magic is nothing like in FB.

That's an issue I ran into when making a life mage and realizing 'Wait...shit. I have fuck all for healing. In Life.'

>>44340885
>The main complaint I hear is that magic is nothing like in FB.

Could it be because you are not actually playing a Battle Wizard, and WHFRP is based on the narrative aspects of the universe, not the wargame?

The main complaint so far has been by a thread autist that wants wizards to be combat power-houses that outdamage everyone else and still maintains their utility, with no danger to themselves.

Essentially, he wants them to be DnD wizards, while most others want them to be Warhammer Fantasy wizards. Which makes sense, considering that it's WHFRP.

The complaint that "magic is nothing like in FB" hasn't actually been raised in the threads even once, that I've seen.

>>44340881
>A standard dragon has a TB of, what? 5 or 6? But they've also got Scales (5) for an effective TB of 10 or 11.

So do players with plate. And by the point you are fighting dragons you will have plate.

This system completely falls apart after players are on their 3rd career. TB of 6 + plate = 11 soak points. Most enemies will need Ulric's Fury to damage you.

>>44340940

Nobody ever said that wizards should be demigods. But magic should be powerful and dangerous. It's neither.

>>44340842
>And second they should not be that expensive.
>muskets replaced all other weapons is the fact that they are not expensive

I think I know what you're trying to say. Logistically and in the long run, Muskets did become cheaper. Gunpowder became easier and easier to produce, and ball shot was a lot easier to make and produce.

Muskets themselves, though, are a shitload more expensive than bows.

Here's some reading you might enjoy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musket#Obsolescence_and_replacement_by_the_rifle

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107022

>>44340919
Wait - so the armour save only causes you to use your full TB as opposed to half?

Maybe re-post it, because that seems like a whole lot of extra effort for nothing, so I'm assuming I'm remembering what was written incorrectly.

>>44340946
>TB of 6 + plate = 11 soak points. Most enemies will need Ulric's Fury to damage you.

A standard peasant with SB 3 and a solid stick would need to roll 9+ to hurt you. Some would argue that against a man armed in Full Plate that is too high a chance for someone to be hurt.

As far as fighting Dragons (as an example) you'll both have a similar soak level. But the dragon will have double your wounds, the ability to fly and breath fire. As well as attacks that have Strike to Injure, Strike Mighty Blow, Piercing and Impact. So yeah, you can soak as much as it can. Lets see how far that gets you.

A common fix for people who have a massive issue with humans being as tough as dragons is to play with a characteristic limit. Humans can't go over Move 5 or TB 5, for example.

>>44340956
What fixes would you suggest?

My group just plays a modified 1.5ed. Never really had an issue with the spells there.

>>44340956
>Nobody ever said that wizards should be demigods.

Wecome, you seem to be new to the thread. I advise you to revisit some of the earlier threads, were this was discussed at length.

>>44340956
> But magic should be [...] dangerous. It is [not].

Well that's a refreshing change from autism-bot's constant whining about the dangers of spellcasting in WHFRP. Personally, I think that WHFRP2 casting has some issues, but manages to strike a pretty good balance between the powers of casters (primarily for utility, but also for damage overall) and danger.

It's not utterly devastating either way, which is how I think it should be. If they were combat gods, the trade-off would be too big when things go bad. I much prefer them not to be DnD-style wizards that have a chance to nuke everything once in a blue moon, and instead be relatively balanced and have mostly minor shit happening once in a while, with a chance of something major.

>>44341035
>What fixes would you suggest?

Noooooo, don't encourage him!

>>44341212

Then what's the point?

do Imperials celebrate Sigmar's birthday?

do they have Emprahmas?

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>>44341283

>>44341283

Sigmarzeit 18 - Sigmarsfest.

Konigstag is the closest they come to an Emperor day, and that's once a week.

>>44341035

It looks like posting houserules here only causes a torrent of shitposting. Better not even try.

>>44341531

The way my group uses the Magic System is a little...fucked, but it's been a process of small changes over years to come to the following result:

We use both Magic Points and the Magic Characteristic.

To cast a spell, you spend 1 Magic Point. This lets you roll your Magic Characteristic in d10. Normal rules from here, but we use the 1ed spell lists. There's a lot more spells to choose from, and the target numbers are significantly lower.

Any wizard can try to counterspell, spend a magic point and try to roll higher than your opponent.

For each additional magic point you spend, you can add a die to your pool. But it also adds a second die that doesn't count to your score and only contributes towards Tzeentch's Curse. Basically stretching beyond your control to try and pull off something big.

If you manage to get multiples of your target number, you basically multiply the results.

From gameplay, magic has a hell of a punch but can very easily fuck you over if you push your limits. It has greater utility thanks to a larger spell list and has generally been more fun to play with.

>>44341020
>>44340919
>>44340881

Nope, first Anon. had it right.

That guys house rules went by Half TB for Lethal Damage, Full TB for Non Lethal Damage. Which is a bit...meh, but okay. I figure they're trying to up the lethality.

But then this:

>Armor points provide armor saves. Armor save rolls are resolved with d10. Every AP is worth one level of armor save. If defending character manages to roll equal or above his armor save value his protection stops the blow and prevents any damage. Every point of SB above 3 reduce enemy's save by one point. So does Armor Piercing quality. If optional Damaging Armor rules are used armor save rolls of 1 mean that armor was potentially damaged.
>prevents any damage

So, yeah. >>44340881 was right.

Platemail + Shield would give you about a 5+ Armour save on this system. So a 50/50 chance of taking no damage flat out.

So, using the example they went with a SB 3 Peasant swinging for 10 would have a 50/50 chance of doing no damage AT ALL.

However, I think he was assuming that a failed save meant you ignored armour/toughness. The anon who posted the house rule wasn't clear, but I think what they meant was that if you make the save you ignore the damage completely, but if you fail it it's business as usual.

So for the above situation, assuming the plate armoured knight w/shield has TB 4 + Plate for 5 + Shield for 1. A Peasant swings for 10. The knight has a 5+ save. If he passes, no damage. If he fails, it would be the 10 DMG - Armour (6) - Half TB (Lethal Damage) (2). So it's either no damage or 2 damage, rather than just a flat 2 damage with that role.

With that in mind, the house rule isn't as bad as previously interpreted. If anything, it ties WFRP back a little bit more to WFB - which I'd see as a positive thing.

>>44341680
So armour would offer sort of a Ward Save?

>>44339976
>Not true, they were actually traumatic as fuck, but they also filled the hole they made. If you die to bleeding, it's internal.

Go watch those or any other bow/crossbow hunting videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuRFhB2JM2U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oy5t5_4wVGA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMEMbDyk1Dk

Effects from arrows are nothing like bullet hits. There is far less power. You won't drop even a turkey instantly. Arrows have no stopping power.

People kill bears with bows and they always die due to blood loss.

>>44341680

Shields don't give AP in 2ed. Just block. So you can never go above 5 AP.

>>44341601

Oh, and for us - Firearms ignore an amount of Toughness and Armour equivalent to it's Strength.

So an SB 4 Rifle shot vs a TB 5 Knight in Plate (5) would do 4 + D10 - 2 damage. It makes them a shitload scarier in combat.

>>44341531
>It looks like posting houserules here only causes a torrent of shitposting. Better not even try.

Don't be discouraged by the autist. House rule discussion is extremely welcome and so far it's never caused any shitposting.

We're just trying to discourage the resident autist from shitposting more by engaging him. He never actually contributes constructively, and asking him questions only really makes it worse.

>>44341601
>but we use the 1ed spell lists.

Is the 1st Ed. Spell-lists compatible with 2nd Ed. or does it require a meaningful amount of homebrewing to work with?

>>44342038

1st ed has like 5 times more spells and they are generally better. But they also don't have casting values.

>>44327686
Nice.

>>44342038
>meaningful amount of homebrewing to work with?

Like >>44342104 said. They don't have casting values, they have Magic Point Costs. It doesn't bother my group too much, as we don't mind wizards having a higher cast success rate, but if you wanted to convert it to 2ed...fuck - it'd take some doing.

Reading this thread makes it look like the name of the RPG isn't Warhammer but Spells & Guns.
Do you guys even look at the career list?
There is shit like Ratcatcher, Burgher and Bone collector. You think people take those careers because they are competitive enough?

>>44342187

No one chooses to be a Rat Catcher.

Being a Rat Catcher chooses you.

>>44342187

That doesn't mean that system should be unbalanced.

And yes, we often play games as random common folk. We were once a group of miners working in a mine when some weird shit started happening.

>>44332225
>And firearms aren't bad, not at all. The only issue I have with them is reload time, but it isn't a big deal if you have Quick Draw and have several pistols in your belt.

That's probably the best way to go about using guns if you're just one guy. The other is to blast someone with a blunderbuss, then get your hand weapon out, because muzzle-loading weapons are not great when used singly. Fun, but not efficient.

Though I have always wanted to play a Noble with a train of servants who load and hand guns to him for a Beastman Safari.

>>44342280
You don't have to focus too much on guns, since they are expensive as shit anyway.
Just shoot once, turn it around and bash heads with its handle or draw another weapon.

>>44342280

I'd give firearms armor piercing. The better the larger a gun is. 1 for carbines, 2 for standard guns and 3 for long rifles.

The fact that they don't get armor piercing in basic system is kind of ridiculous. This is really the main thing early firearms were known for.

I also always add heavy crossbows and siege crossbows to the weapons list. And very strong bows that require high SB to use.

>>44332518
>>44332518
>Best
Pulling a long con on a group of Handrich cultists, taking a bunch of their money away through entirely (questionably) legal means, which made them angry but they were prohibited from getting violent and simply stealing it back by the cult's leadership, who appreciated the work. We are terrible businessmen and almost immediately lost the money, but for a while there we slept on real beds

>Worst
I am a bad GM and killed someone with a drawbridge. Still hasn't forgiven me.

>>44332225
>And firearms aren't bad, not at all. The only issue I have with them is reload time, but it isn't a big deal if you have Quick Draw and have several pistols in your belt.

Thematically, that's how you're supposed to do it anyway. Nobody is really intended to stand still in the middle of combat reloading a weapon.

>>44332471
>everything must be equally powerful and if something isn't overpowered it's fucking useless

k.

>>44335914
>If WFB dictates that an elf hero is the equal of any human lord, then that just means the range of characters playable in WFRP reaches the top end of the human power scale but tops out at the middle for elves.

Yeah? You're not going to play a campaign over a thousand years to cover the lifespan of an elf and their rise to elven master levels (including spending decades back in Ulthan practicing one sword stroke).

In practical measures, it's not different for an elf to decide to retire from adventuring to go do that, than it does for a Noble to stop adventuring and go manage his vast estates and lead an army. Both are specifically and deliberately outside the scope of the game.

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>>44332518
>For me, my best character moment was fighting a Bretonnian fleet and winning. Sure, we barely came out on top, and my ship suffered 50% casualties, but we still won.

Hey, that's really coo-

>Worst (at least in character) was when our party caused the death of a Slann and the destruction of his temple city. It felt like smashing a priceless vase or ripping an ancient painting. Even though my character was a total asshole, he knew that was some bad shit right there.

... HOW?

>>44342596
>everything must be equally powerful

Yes? That's called balance. Best quality hand axe gives impact. What is the point of using two handed weapons then? Gimping yourself?

System is supposed to give players equally viable options. Not obviously OP options that make other weapons pointless.

RAW everybody would be using bows as ranged weapons and axe+shield for close combat. Using anything else equals intentionally making yourself weaker.

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>>44342187
>Reading this thread makes it look like the name of the RPG isn't Warhammer but Spells & Guns.
>Do you guys even look at the career list?
>There is shit like Ratcatcher, Burgher and Bone collector. You think people take those careers because they are competitive enough?

The problem really is that we've got an autist that is following the threads around, constantly complaining, never being constructive, and bogging everything down into discussions on what does the most damage, even though he's arguments are consistently crushed down into the ground.

So far he's argued that:

>fire doesn't set fire to things unless it specifically says so in the rules
>chaos gods are individual personas with their own will, and can stop being the way they are at whim
>magic sucks because it's not as powerful as in DND and doesn't outdamage everyone else while maintaining utility
>a chance to get insanity points as a spellcaster is absolutely devastating and ruins the game forever for everyone
>End Times and Age of Sigmar are canon, even though the thread is expressly intended for Warhammer Fantasy, not spin-offs!
>firearms are shit because shit and useless and stuff I dunno why do I need to train to use weapons that are relatively exotic in the setting when bows do more damage after I've gained 4 careers?!

Several of these has been covered multiple times. Especially his irrational hatred for the fact that wizards aren't omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent murderhobos capable of killing everything in full plate while also being able to fly, heal, set things on fire or render enemy equipment unusable, comes up in every thread so far.

We all wish that he'd just stop shitposting and kill himself, but there's honestly not that much we can do unless /tg/'s "worst mods" shows up and actually bans him, so whatcha gonna do?

>>44342721
So?

WFRP isn't about balance. It's not D&D. If you want to play your character to be totally optimized, then you go ahead and have fun doing that. It's not what the system is built for - but as long as it makes you happy, then that is all that matters.

>System is supposed to give players equally viable options

No. Systems are designed to simulate. For whatever reason, the creators of this system have chosen to make Best Quality Axes the best choice, from your perspective.

Again, it's no D&D. Balance was never the goal here.

>>44332518
>BEST
Playing the mid-show act at the Bloodbowl 2515 Finals.

>WORST
Having my slayer character that I'd played for nearly a decade get killed by Archaon. Also kind of ties for best in a weird way.

>>44342721
>being this basic

It's a roleplaying game, it is not chess. There are issues, sure, but they're not nearly as bad as you make them out to be.

The issue with 2h weapons is completely different, since it's a consistent and major issue, where the difference is very clear and insurmountable; essentially, they do not fill a niche.

But you're deflecting to that argument, because you know full well that roleplayers do not want everything to be 100% balanced, just like things aren't 100% balanced in the real world, or any other world.

And in case you didn't notice, this was to highlight your hypocrisy that everything must be balanced 100%, but if something isn't effectively overpowered, it's suddenly useless.

Go make your own system where your pet things can be overpowered and everything else useless, or where everything does exactly the same thing in the same way. Either that, or go lick an electrical outlet.

>>44342824

Are you literally retarded? 1/4 of the points you listed are me. So no, it's not 1 person.

You sound like some idiot allergic to changes and actual discussion.

Best quality axes get Tiring quality. Arquebus gets AP-2 and Rifle AP-3.

There. Obviously imbalanced options are much more balanced now. With 10 words.

Seriously, the person shitting up these threads is you. You treat any attempt at discussion as trolling and call people autists while fighting your imaginary samefag troll. Grow up.

>>44342876
>D&D
>balance

What the fuck am I reading?

And it's not about optimizing. It's one option being much better at the first glance.

>>44342915
>Are you literally retarded? 1/4 of the points you listed are me. So no, it's not 1 person.

You know you can prove that with a single screencap, right?

As for
>Best quality axes get Tiring quality.

I'm hesitant on the notion. Yeah, Best Quality Axes are powerful as fuck. They are also Best Quality. Expensive as fuck. They should be better. Tiring feels a little much but eh, if it works for your group that's what matters.

Addeing AP to Arquebus and Rifles makes sense.

>>44342941
>And it's not about optimizing. It's one option being much better at the first glance.
And when you always take the best option it IS optimizing.

>>44342941

Have you literally not seen what's happened to D&D 4th and 5th ed?

>And it's not about optimizing. It's one option being much better at the first glance.

Then why do you ignore the price difference that Best Quality items attract? Or the fact that Best Quality gear SHOULD be better? Or why you think Armour Piercing, Pummeling or Defensive are so much worse than Impact?

>>44342915
It's too similar to be several persons. Stop embarrassing yourself.

>You sound like some idiot allergic to changes and actual discussion.

No, just non-contributing reactionary autists like yourself. There's been several house-rules discussed that I've taken to heart and that we've discussed, without being autistic about it like yourself.

The fixes to spell healing and two-handed weapons losing Slow at SB 5 coming to mind.

>Best quality axes get Tiring quality.
>Best quality
>gets worse
1/10 would not be trolled again.

And that's before we get into the fact that you think the game is littered with best-quality gear

>Seriously, the person shitting up these threads is you.
>the person shitting up these threads
>is the person that's been starting them and taken an active interest in digging out resources for the participants

Alright, whatever you say, autism-bot.

>>44342974

Okay. Let's assume we have a player who really wants to be a soldier with a musket since he loves the idea.

Then after reading the rules for 2 minutes he discovers that:

Crossbow can fire 2x more often and hits with the same SB. Crossbow requires no specialist training. Crossbow don't have 4% chance to jam and become useless and 1% chance to blow up in his face. Crossbows are 12x cheaper.

>>44343048
Fuck yeah, Crossbow Master Race.

>>44343028

So you don't even know the rules.

Tiring never makes things worse. It only means you can use Impact only on the first turn of combat.

>>44342998
>Best Quality gear SHOULD be better?

And it is? You always get 5% hit bonus with best quality weapons. Axe gives you Impact on top of that. It's ridiculously OP.

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>>44342998
>Then why do you ignore the price difference that Best Quality items attract?

Because he is Autism-Bot, the hero we don't deserve, and certainly do not need right now.

>>44343048
One of the suggested fixes for Firearms, which is also the one my group subscribes to, is a limited Armour/Toughness piercing quality equal to the weapons strength bonus. We also give two handed weapons the same ability for similar reasons.

>>44343063
Tiring + Impact for Best Quality is a little questionable. I mean, why would an axe being made extremely well become tiring? Are we assuming the axe only gains impact because of added weight?

Impact is definitely great, but I think the logical fix here is just to beef up some of the other abilities.

The problem here seems to be that anon. thinks Impact is too powerful compared to Defensive, Pummelling and Armour Piercing - which confer a +10/+1 bonus respectively. Would it make Impact more balanced if these bonuses were brought up to +20/+2?

>>44343087
>Axe gives you Impact on top of that. It's ridiculously OP.

Ah, there we go. The heart of the matter.

It's not the fact that the Axe has Impact that bothers you - it's the power level of Impact in the first place.

How would you propose to fix that? My personal preference is to make the other abilities a little more in line with it - making it a bigger choice over whether to go with Impact or, say, Defensive.

>>44343087
>>44342721

What games are you playing where you literally have the option to choose which of the Best Quality weapons gives you the best bonus?

I mean, shit. I usually have to scrounge and scrap to make sure I can pay for food and board.

You're GM sounds a little too lenient with you for a WFRP game.

>>44343133

Defensive is completely useless if you have a shield or some parrying weapon. Pummeling is very situational. AP is just +1 to damage really. Impact is definitely the best quality a weapon can have.

>>44343048
>Crossbow can fire 2x more often and hits with the same SB.

But a gun has Impact, so you're doing more reliable heavy damage with a gun when you hit. Specialist training and cost of the weapon don't matter if the player is playing a musket-armed Soldier, because he already has the training and the weapon.

And yeah, crossbows don't malfunction and are a heck of a lot cheaper to keep using. That doesn't mean that firearms are useless and terrible, and that it's wrong and impossible for him to play a soldier with a musket. Those are small concerns for him, because he can play a a musket-armed Soldier like he wanted, and still have fun.

>>44343161

I'd say those weapon qualities work as intended. A one handed weapon should simply never get Impact unless it's through magic.

>>44343191
Congratulations, you can repeat what you read. So what do you suggest be done to balance it? Have you any ideas? Have you tried any with your group?

Do you have a group to test it with?

>>44343217
Sounds like a fair trade. Give Best Quality Axe Armour Piercing instead, perhaps? Or just a +1 to SB?

>>44343207

A sane soldier would just instantly sell his used musket for like 200gc. Then buy a crossbow and armor.

>>44343243
I'd go +1 SB. Armour Piercing is great, but it's effectively a situational +1 SB and is already covered by the Best Quality Billhook.

>>44343243
Why are Best Quality Axes getting special treatment anyways?

I always waved that little subrule and went with the core standard +5% WS.

>>44343063
>>44343087
Fair enough, I was confusing it with another special quality. Applying Tiring could be pretty reasonable, truth be told.

However, adding something to best-craftsmanship weapons that already have Impact (or whatever happens to be the case) would be far better, if the goal is to avoid making X weapon objectively better than Y forever.

The real issue here is that they tried to differentiate between different Hand Weapons based on Best Craftsmanship, while the idea of "Hand Weapon" encompassing so many different things was stupid from the beginning.

Also, I want to stress that this thing that's getting your panties in a twist is an optional rule.

>>44343243

Yeah, that sounds much better than Impact. But Impact and Tiring also works.

>>44343185
He doesn't actually play, because he doesn't have any real interest in the system as it works, or the setting in which it takes place (as evidenced by previous discussions).

He's just theory-crafting about hypotheticals that is unlikely to ever become nearly as relevant as he makes it out to be.

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>>44343255
We're not having someone who is a totally rational economic actor with metasystem knowledge.

We're taking a player who wants to have a musket, showing him that he can have a musket (and a full suit of armour) from the word Go, and letting him have fun. This isn't wrong at all.

>>44343255
>A sane soldier would just instantly sell his used musket for like 200gc. Then buy a crossbow and armor.

You literally cannot roleplay anything to save your life, can you? It's all a straight-up numbers game to you, and those numbers are laid bare to your fictitious in-game persona, Autist-Bot #431.

A sane soldier, as in one not being controlled by an autist like yourself, would have no idea what relative numbers value you happen to ascribe a certain item within the world that he lives.

He'd go with the weapon he's the most comfortable using and that he thinks he can make the most use of.

Not that you'd be able to relate. Someone should just give you a colouring book with math in it, and push you down into the ball pit at McDonalds and let you go to town.

>>44343255
A sane soldier would sell his musket, buy a farm in the Moot, and retire. We're dealing with someone else here.

>>44343294

You are again assuming it's one person. While I never even discussed AoS or Chaos fluff. Or fire. Or magic not being like DnD. Stop being autistic.

>>44343371

Anon, anyone should know how expensive firearms are. So yes, most people starting with something worth 300 gold would just sell it. Especially since it offers no real benefits over a weapon worth 20 gold.

>>44343437
>if he knows his weapon is expensive, he'll obviously sell it
>it offers no benefits over a weapon worth 20 gold and the character knows this

Oh god, could you be any more autistic? I've literally never met anyone on the internet that is this autistic and still capable of writing coherent sentences.

I pray to god that you're really just a very, very dedicated troll.

If we all mass-report him, we might be able to get rid of him for a few days at least. Press the "▶" next to his post number if you don't know how to report someone.

>>44343484

Yearly pay of a rich farmer is around 20gc. 300gc is within a yearly income of a lesser noble.

If you have something worth this much and not selling it your character is crazy.

And that's ignoring all the people who will want to steal it from you. Or kill you and take it. It's asking for trouble.

>>44343437
Assuming, of course, they can find someone to buy it. Like yeah, OK, its worth 300 gold coins, but we're in Middenhole, a mud farming community that runs on incest and casual violence. The local shop keeper will give you fifty gold (all he can afford) and a tumble from his least hairy daughter for it. Still want to trade?