/wodg/ World of Darkness General

What kind of resources are we talking about and what would be appropriate? Book downloads, or websites to buy them? I've got a wiki that my players introduced me to that seems to somewhat up to speed for nWoD.

http://wodindex.wikispaces.com/

Anyways, what's everyone's favorite supernatural template? Whether you like it thematically, or mechanically, or whatever, which one do you like the most?

I like the tried and true Vampires. Mages are also pretty cool.

>>43934722

Thanks to 2e, I think it might be Werewolves.

>>43934722
Changelings are my favorite thematically.
I also like the way 2e is shaping up, I look forward to playing it in a few years.

>>43934722
Hunters were always my favourite. Underdogs but still kickin'

>>43934722
Definitely werewolf.

Demon, Mage and Hunter are all good, but Werewolf just has the most for me.

>>43934833

Me, I'm very excited to play Hunter 2e, and I'm ready to ride out the decade of development time it'll take to get there.

What's all of your guys' favourite Auspice/Tribe

Is it all Rahu and Irrakafags up in here? I feel like that's all I see. I'm always playing Elodoth or Cahalith because that's the space left.

>>43934722
http://rp.thesubnet.com/ This is also good, and while not as up to date, it has the full texts.
Not really sure about resources in particular, just thinking we need more, and more up to date ones.

We really need a WoD Sheet creator, like Chummer, but no one knows how to make one.

>>43934888
>Favourite Auspice
Elodoth.

Currently playing an Ithaeur though (and constantly being outshined in my auspice role by the Cahalith with Occult 5, but whatever).

>>43934722
As of 2e I'm big on Mortals again. Though the few times I've played B&S Vampire I've loved it. I haven't tried WtF 2e yet but I'd like to. Overall, I'm just loving the new edition.

>>43934722

Big Mage fan. I never really liked Vamp or Woof, but 2e definitely changed that for me. I'd love to try and actually play them some time, but I'm a Forever ST and getting other people to run isn't exactly easy.

>>43934946
>We really need a WoD Sheet creator, like Chummer, but no one knows how to make one.
We're getting a DtD Roll20 sheet soon-ish, at least.

>>43934722

Mage has been an old favourite, but it's mostly due to exposure. I'd like to give Changeling a try.

Alright /wodg/ let's try a new game.

Give a one-line reason why someone should try your favorite game and then a one-line reason why another game is your least favorite.

>>43936772
>Changeling
Because it's thematically fucking awesome, just look at the art for this thing and tell me it doesn't get you in the mood.

>Mummy
It's got like... Mummies or something.
Spooky, huh?

>>43936772
>Hunter
You and a few others fight back against the demon-haunted night.

>Beast
It's a fapfic for school shooters.

How do I get into 2e? I haven't played WoD since pre-GMC, so I have no idea where to look for the most recent rules. I gather there isn't a second edition of most of the game lines yet, but I assume the new core stuff can still be used with the old rules to some extent?

>>43936772

>Mage
Wizards - no sense of right or wrong.

>Hunter
plz read my Buffy fanfic, original character donutsteel.jpg

>>43937378
Wait for nWoD core to come out. Unless you want to play Vampire or Werewolf specifically, in which case pick up Vampire 2e or Werewolf 2e.

>>43937378
You'll want either...

God-Machine Chronicle update (with the rules free for downlod on DTRPG), which is a great update for mortals and covers more or less everything. The GMC book (soon to be the WoD2e core) has a full-on chronicle and backstory for using the God-Machine as an antagonist.

VtR2e, which is self-contained except for a few Merits; it can be run without the GMC rules though as all is self-contained. It can pair with the old VtR 1e stuff with some finagling.

DtD and WtF2e I can't comment on though, I haven't read them.

>>43937473
>>43937495
Ah, okay. No chance the nWoD core stuff is coming out soon, is there?

>>43934722
>Anyways, what's everyone's favorite supernatural template?

nWoD 1e, it's Changeling. I haven't gotten to play any 2e yet, and I'm really hoping to. I want to try out both Vampire and Werewolf.

>>43938041
It's at Paradox for approval right now.
I don't know what kind of differences there are going to be between the GMC Rules Update/GMC book and the NWoD 2e though; the GMC was essentially the de factor NWoD 2e until the official 2e was able to be announced.

>>43938080

They were going to remove that awful shit about the God-machine, for starters

>>43938079
Hey cool. What do you like about Changeling? I haven't got a chance to play it yet since my players wanted to check out Werewolf and Mage first.

>>43938147
One of the ways I judge how much I like a game is how many character concepts I come up with while reading through the book. With Changeling it was absolutely magic. When I ran a game, I had no trouble populating the Freehold with interesting NPCs.

Thematically, I think the game is solid, and have grown to like the changes 2e will bring to Seeming and Kith. I like the mix of fantasy and horror, the mood of Beautiful Madness. And I feel like the inspirations for the game make it easy for players to understand those themes. You can point to Labyrinth, or Coraline, or Pan's Labyrinth and say, "These are Changeling characters and stories."

In fact, Labyrinth is a great example of a True Fae, of why one might do what he does.

Sarah: Give me the child.

Jareth: Sarah, beware. I have been generous up 'til now. I can be cruel.

Sarah: Generous? What have you done that's generous?

Jareth: *Everything*! Everything that you wanted I have done. You asked that the child be taken. I took him. You cowered before me, I was frightening. I have reordered time. I have turned the world upside down, and I have done it all for *you*! I am exhausted from living up to your expectations. Isn't that generous?

And, of course:

Jareth: I ask for so little. Just fear me, love me, do as I say and I will be your slave.

>>43938130
You do know that the GM is pretty much irrelevant for most splats (all but 1.5 to be precise, with .5 being the Hunters for whom the GM stuff makes nice antagonists), do you?

>>43938080
Oh, neat. That sounds like it could be out in a more realistic timeframe than I expected.

>>43938452
Holy shit, it's been way too long since I've seen Labyrinth; I don't remember those lines at all. That's great stuff. I tried to start a Changeling game once, but it never really got off the ground, which is a shame, 'cause the whole concept just seems really damn interesting.

So, what do you guys think about the 2e Wizened? Changeling is at least a 1st place contender in my list of favourite games/settings and I generally love what happened with the 2ed transition. However, I'm not so sure about new Wizened. What is their shtick supposed to be? I liked the "diminished" and "collaborator" themes a lot, the new cyborg-ish theme seems so much… less to me.

>>43938650
>Holy shit, it's been way too long since I've seen Labyrinth
Watch it here.
https://youtu.be/XxV1dIRlmOU

Although to anyone who hasn't seen Labyrinth in ages... it doesn't hold up as well as you remember. It's a good movie, but there's an exasperating slog throughout the middle. I've never particularly enjoyed Sarah's companions, and things like Chilly Downs and the overly long battle scene feel like padding.

It's worth noting that you can still play Core 2e right now, it's just a bit half-finished, and you need the original core and a free supplement errata. If you're fine using PDFs, just pirate it.

>>43938772
I haven't seen the Wizened, but if I'm assuming correctly and their theme is that they've been remade and tinkered with... I'm all for it. Wizened in 1e basically felt like their theme was "Generic... but ugly, I guess?"
Fairest were already "Generic... but pretty, I guess?" so Wizened didn't really need that. Although I can't say I like that Fairest are becoming the CtD Sidhe. More theme than "Pretty" would be nice, but designated Leader classes are lame.

>>43938650
That 'generous' exchange comes from right at the end, after the Escher stairs sequence, at least.

Hellboy II is a good representation of some Changeling politics and has, hands-down, the BEST representation of a Goblin Market that I've ever seen.

File: sf20front.jpg (73KB, 350x453px) Image search: [Google]

73KB, 350x453px

BIG NEWS

STREET FIGHTER THE STORYTELLING GAME 20th ANNIVERSARY EDITION!

It is finally compiled. It is amazing. All the content of the original six books, compiled and clarified, eratta built in.

Download it!

https://sfrpg.neocities.org/sf20.html

>>43938079
>>43938452
>One of the ways I judge how much I like a game is how many character concepts I come up with while reading through the book.
I've always liked Changeling in concept, but felt it was a letdown in practice. The mechanics for everything they do is backwards and they basically never have to worry about Glamour, not that Harvesting it is really specific anyway--half the time they imply you have to cause the change (an Ogre doing Strength+Intimidate) while other times they imply you can sit in a movie theater or funeral home (Composure+Empathy). The fact that the roll for Harvest seems to be the same as the roll to cause it also means that, say, a changeling with Harvest (Emotions) ●●● gets +3 to his attacks. Contracts are just so bad, too. People justify them as "you have to be clever with them", but that means they're bad.

Changeling also has this thing going for it where your main goal in the day to day is to deal with being what you are, and that's not really much to do. The fear of the Others should be the fear of an abuse victim whose abuser is likely in a different state, not the fear of a city under siege.

Changeling also reminds me of Beast, in that I can think of a lot of characters for both of them, but in many ways I can think of too many (Geist sort of has that problem, with the Geists). There's a sense of Analysis Paralysis. While Beast and Geist have that, for them it's mostly looks, while in Changeling your Kith actually matters, and how you can make the mechanics match your fluff. I've never had a changeling character where I felt confident it was what I wanted to play, because there's always 50 other things (and all the powers I choose will probably be useless or against my theme).

>>43939179
Wouldd you be so nice to remind me what the new Fairest are like?

And about Wizened: All the suggestions what the different Kiths would look like in a Wizened suggested not only general partly mechanical look, but it also normally went in an almost sci-fi direction iirc. I'd love if they would look somehow like the fetches, that would be cool, but all the examples have them have glass and crystal and metal everywhere. I WANT to like then, but I still cannot ;_;

Btw, "generic, but ugly" wasn't what I took from 1st ed. It was all about being *less*, which in my eyes is very different from general ugliness.

>>43939338
>Would you be so nice to remind me what the new Fairest are like?
CtD Sidhe. They get a dot of Clarity for being Leaders and lose a dot for being bad Leaders. "Pretty person who was kidnapped to become princess" is no longer their schtick.

All Changelings are "less". Wizened were small and gnarled and ugly. Spite and an inability to get along with people was their 1e Flaw.
Although I will admit they kind of sound like Elementals now. I was for merging Elemental and Beast.

>>43939405
>Wizened were small and gnarled and ugly. Spite and an inability to get along with people was their 1e Flaw.
They didn't have to. They were detached from humanity, more than other changelings, just as Fairest were more unstable than others (which also was their shtick, strengthening the beautiful madness theme).

I also quite enjoyed the implication that most if not all Wizened collaborated with their masters in doing the same stuff that happened to them to other, new Changelings.

>I was for merging Elemental and Beast.
I'd quite enjoyed that, too, but their respective themes were too different. And no reason to lose a theme from a game.

So whose ready for Changeling......The Dreaming 20th Anniversary Edition? Eh? Eeeeeeh?

>>43939519
>They didn't have to
>Curse: Spite infects the Wizened. It comes out in their appearance, and in their manner. Their appearance, which is rarely attractive, and their general tendency not to be approachable means that the Wizened don't benefit from the 10 again rule on dice pools involving Presence. For the same reason, while Social skills aren't completely barred to them, the Wizened suffer a -2 dice untrained penalty when trying to use a Social Skill in which they have no dots rather than the usual -1.

The Wizened were never collaborators (I just read their entry, which is the shortest of all of them, and barely covers the two pages it gets) and it says their Durance was either as slaves or stress toys. There's this mix of the really superfluous "diminished by spite" thing as well as the "used as slaves and drudges" thing. The impression of the average Wizened that the book gives is a seamstress who was dunked on while being made to work til her fingers bled.

>>43939689
What even was the premise of Changeling the Dreaming? I never bothered reading it and nobody ever talks about it.

>>43939737
The collaborator part was expanded by a latter expansion.

About the spite: I guess I stand corrected.

Hey, /wodg/, I've got a concept for a Vampire character with a thematic tie to rainy nights. Are there any nWoD Vamp bloodlines tied to rainy nights/storms?

Alternatively, any suggestions for powers/drawbacks related to one?

Optional theme music:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebt0BR5wHYs

>>43934722
Everything that has come out of second edition that I in my limited time am aware of.
>Demon
>Vampire
>Werewolf
Not in that order, but you get the point.
Beast doesn't exist to me.

So in terns of power for 1enWoD...

It seems to me that Vampires are either the Jack of All Trades types or the social specialists. What I mean by Jack of All Trades is that it looks like they could pretty much do whatever they wanted to do, and the system supports it, whereas it would be harder for a Mage or Werewolf to do something out of the "norm."

What do you think? Which template is the strongest, the weakest, the ones that run the middle of the line?

>>43939769
You are a Fae Soul reincarnating in a human body, stuck outside the land of the Dreaming, the land of the Fae, for hundreds of years. You deal with Fae politics and the dual Seelie and Unseelie natures of yourself, as well as the death of dreams and creativity in the world. For once all creativity, your driving force and animating life, is dead... so too do you die, as the world stagnates and all imagination and creativity leaves the world inspirationless drudging drones.

>>43940009
I thought a Changeling was a human that just spent too much time in the Fae world?

>>43940054
That's Changeling the Lost.

In the Dreaming, you're a fae soul set into a cycle of reincarnation into mortal shells; it was a defense against Banality, or the weight of normalcy and lack of inspiration and dreams that destroys your Fae self, devised by the Fae trapped on earth when the gates of Arcadia were slammed shut by the Sidhe hundreds of years ago. The mortal shell protects you from Banality, and you interact with two worlds: reality and Chimerical Reality, or the realm of living dreams and imaginations that exists and can interact with anything of the Dreaming and the Fae.

>>43937384
hunter and mage are so close in theme that i must conclude you've had a debilitating stroke

>>43940094
Oh, sorry. Changeling is one of the books I'm unfamiliar with, so I got confused between oWoD and nWoD.

Alright, so, how's this for an idea:

A Nosferatu bloodline, which carries within its blood enmity with the very sky itself, such that not even the earth itself might give the worm shelter. Any Nossie carrying this bloodline slowly draws the ire of the very heavens themselves, like a magnet for doom.

If the vamp lingers in a given locale for more than a week, the weather starts to darken, until every night is rain. Within another couple of weeks, it's become a torrential downpour and nightly storm. After a month, it has become an apocalyptic hurricane, centred on the vampire who earned its ire.

But those who bear such cursed blood are not without their cunning. It is in the nature of the Nosferatu to bear all the world's hatred and endure; growing more gloriously loathesome for each heaped curse. Those who bear this blood also gain a number of advantages while beneath a rain-darkened sky; becoming harder to notice, harder to track, and harder still to escape.

>>43940002
Which template is the strongest, the weakest, the ones that run the middle of the line?

Mage was the strongest, with Sin Eater close behind. Sin Eaters were actually stronger earlier than mages, but eventually get outstripped.

Then there's a huge gap between those two and everything else. Then we have Changeling, Promethean and Vampire in that order.

Then another huge gap and we have Werewolf followed closely by Hunter. 1e Werewolves were very weak until they amassed a lot of experience, as only level 4-5 Gifts had any real power. They were genuinely gimped at every level of the game, from character creation (1 bonus specialty to start!) to Gifts (1-2 level gifts were generally useless with some exceptions). Regeneration was the only thing keeping them from being basically the same power level as Hunters at char gen.

>>43940144
No worries. Dreaming is... alright. It's not my favorite of the OWoD (mostly because I have issues with the character types, particularly Childings which are supposed to be PCs of mortal age 5-13), but their magic system is cool and I would love to, had I the time, adapt it to NWoD.

>>43940207
That's interesting. Any ideas on house rules to make a Werewolf more appealing in 1e? I felt that the skill specialty was sort of weak, but most stuff was offset by being a werewolf and having the transformations (and the regen, which is great).

So, I mentioned earlier that I kind of want to do a WoD Portal Fantasy game, set in a tweaked version of the Woundgate concept from Mirrors.

Essentially, the world is a bunch of different Realms scattered around and connected to each other, so that you could walk from The Hedge to the Material to the Shadow to the Underworld without any special tricks. Verges (two areas mixed on top of each other) are also common. Some places even lead to The Abyss, or The Inferno. It's a mishmash of places out of time, and broken realms, likely as a result of things like the God-Machine and the death of the Urfarah and the Fall of the Supernal Ladder. Basically a garbage bin of things that got deleted.

I'm thinking that since the game is going to be set in America that the alternate world should be a Fantasy Americana place, as opposed to European inspired fantasy. Very Bioshock Infinite, with worship of the Founding Fathers in some places, and representative of a period between Colonialism and Westward Expansion.

Still not sure what my players will be doing in this world, or what their goal is ("Return home" is a common one). I think I want them to have all had dreams about this world, and thought that it was something they made up as a kid. Maybe even have an NPC who comes over with them and takes to it a lot better than any of them, and starts thinking he should take over or something.

>>43939179
>>43939338
>>43939405
>>43939519
>>43939737
IIRC, the 2E previews paint Wizened as a more of an allegory for workaholism. They coped by burying themselves in their work, and using their tools of trade to fill in the gaps as they gradually lost pieces of themselves.
I think there was an example of a ballerina who lost her legs during her durance and replaced them with ribbons and dance shoes.

>>43940893
Well, Seeming in 2e is more of a thing you got by escaping, as opposed to a thing you got by being captured.

>>43940241
>Any ideas on house rules to make a Werewolf more appealing in 1e?

Honestly there's a lot of hacks in Armory Reloaded that went a long way in making werewolves feel badass. Savage Might, Feral Defenses and Unstoppable Fury are all pretty good, though you can mix and match to your tastes.

>>43941036
I think I'll implement Savage Might and Unstoppable Fury, but I'm not sure about Feral Defenses. Not that I think it's overpowered or anything, it just seems like all of those sans Savage Might have to do with combat specifically, which, while common in my games, isn't the only thing I want my players doing.

>>43940949
Well it makes more sense in 2e considering Kiths are completely separated from Seemings.

>>43940207
As far as I'm aware nWoD 1e power levels were sort of

High End: Mage/Mummy/Sin-Eater

Ambiguous Middle: Changeling/Promethean/Vampire

Low End: Werewolf, Hunter

Since Demon and Beast are 2e they're not on the list, but both are basically under high end of the power levels. 2e changes up the balance and levels the playing field a bit more it seems.

Mage is still top dog for 2e with Demon and Beast right under it. Vampires and Werewolves both got buffed quite a bit and are a bit closer on their own level, but I think most people are saying Vampire still beats out Werewolf as long as the Werewolf isn't in a pack. Despite Promethean 2e basically coming out at the same time as Mage 2e and previews here and there for Changeling, there's no real telling how they are in comparison to the other splats from the updates. Hunter 2e coming next year with a buff I'm guessing, and the upcoming Deviant game has them listed as generally the weakest full fledged supernatural splat and above only Hunters and Mortals in power. Really only leaves Geist and Mummy to the imagination if they ever get 2e treatment, but I'm guessing their high end power levels will probably remain the same.

>>43941115
Changeling is very weak.

>>43941153
Weaker than Vampire and Werewolves? I heard they weren't particularly very combat oriented but did have some potent stuff at their disposal.

I imagined with the current status of new world without all the books out the current order of power was probably

Mage>Demon>Mummy>Beast>Sin-Eater>Promethean>Changeling>Vampire>Werewolf>Deviant>Hunter>Mortal

Not counting Demi-splats

>>43941209
I would expect Mage to drop a rank with the new book.

There seem to be a LOT more threats to Magic, and some of their bullshit like the ludicrously long rituals have been trimmed back.

>>43938597
It's weird that it's not relevant to Mage, figuring some of its first mentions were in Mage books.

>>43941209
Changelings barely even have flexibility. They can't do as much. Not even things like Talecrafting and Pledges really make Changelings better, especially since most of Pledges is either giving bonus skill or Merit dots or trying to trick people into breaking bargains so they die. Changelings don't have combat potential and barely really have social or utility potential.

>>43941284
It's mentioned like once, and that was a writer intentionally calling back to the original fiction from the corebook.

>>43941269

They also get a huge power increase in general though. There are Archmastery spells that are Master level now.

How is nWerewolf so weak? They were fucking monsters in oWoD.

>>43941319
Really? Got any examples?

>>43941327

time travel and immortality

>>43940113

It's not the theme that's the issue, it's the execution. And the games are so different in style I have to assume you're a troll.

>>43941323
Werewolf is a fairly strong splat. They just don't seem that way compared to literally Mach 3 Werewolves from oWoD and nMage or nMummy.

I would hazard to say they're one of the strongest, if you remove the above two from the pool, mostly because they're absolute bullshit in the power level scale.

>>43941327

Permanently restoring a missing limb.

>>43941269

The ritual problem has been fixed, but Legacies and the Arcana seemed to have received significant power increases, including removal of the old "speedbumps" found in Forces, Life and Matter. The covert/vulgar spell distinctions have also been eliminated, and paradox risk is now more of a choice.

>>43941346
Like, no holds barred time travel?
Or the 'save points' and 'hop back a turn' from 1e?

Also immortality is a breeze.
Any life mage could potentially migrate that aspect into his biology from any of the natural critters in the world with insane longevity.
Death Mages could enhance their lifespan by cutting bits off of other people's or just plain steal their body, permanently.

>>43941327
Well, a lot of things are done away with, like the speed bumps. Mage armour is no longer "armour for me" and "armour for you" as two spells. There's no control Base/Median/Higher Life, just "Control Life".

You can also do things with Indefinite Duration now. You were previously unable to do Indefinite Duration on a living pattern.

>>43941379
I've said it before and i'll say it again. No rational Mage would seek immortality/avoid aging. You'd have to be a low wisdom nut with an ax to grind.

>>43941323
They make up for individual "low end power" by being pack hunters and coming in numbers, along with all the bonuses they specifically get for fighting as a pack.

>>43941362
That really doesn't seem like it should be something of an Archmastery grade though.

Considering I've seen people use many other 'get arounds' including developing an 'arm parasite' which basically works just like a normal arm, joining with your nervous system, and taking all the nutrients it needs from your body.

>>43941209
Ehh, I'd disagree and say it's more like

Demon Going Loud > or = Mage > Mummy > Beast > Demon > Prommie > Werewolf > Sin-Eater > Vampire > Changeling > Hunter > Mortal

Also, Changelings got some Combat contracts in Dark Eras, which are nothing special and really only for swordsmen. There's also Draconic Fairest, or Dancers.

>>43941415
Most books agree with that, especially considering the Atlantean doctrine of reincarnation.

However it usually mentions such actions are performed by the cowardly, or someone who refuses to die until some great work is complete.

Also I have never seen a group maintain a Wisdom above 6 for more than 3 sessions, and from then it just devolves.

>>43941420
Oh I agree the old way was total bullshit. Especially since you used to be able to regenerate stuff like fingers, scars, and ears.

>>43941441
How hard is it to just not murder people?

>>43941463
According to most of them? Cripplingly.

>>43941441
That's when you say, "Fuck it" and ask if they dare to enter your magical realm.

>>43941463

Killing people is not really the problem, but there are a LOT of terrible things you can do to mortals for various reasons well short of murder, including soul theft, mind control, shape-changing, etc.

Note also that Wisdom is not morality, but rather a measure of magic control and foresight.

>>43941432

Are we talking about potential power or average power? Most mages aren't bad-ass Gnosis 10 multi-degree masters. They're borderline schizophrenics trying to survive by dimming the lights in a room or rigging a coin flip with their mind.

>>43941516
Yeah? And?

It honestly doesn't look very hard at all to maintain a 7 Widom, especially since Wisdom can affect your paradox and other things as a Mage, so there's incentive to keep it high. I mean, the step for Wisdom are basically the same for Morality with some extra stuff here and there: don't be a fuckin' cunt and you'll be fine.

What, are you intentionally setting buildings on fire and ripping out fetuses with spells or something?

>>43941061
In that case I'll add just make sure to open up the supplement books. A couple of them have better gifts that have interesting applications and make the game a lot more fun.

>>43941516
It's a pretty good metric for measuring morality. If you kill a dude or torture him with magic you're committing your entire soul to the act. That's going to color your world view.

>>43936772
>Werewolf
You're a wolfman that has to deal with a bunch of animalistic, singleminded, inhuman monsters.

>Mage
You're some magic guy.

Any idea of what kinds of tokens and goblin fruits are in Changeling 2E so far?. I always liked being able to explain and detail the campaign with these items and the stories that surround them, as stories surround everything.

>>43941558
>>43941582

I believe the issue with mages is that they tend to poke their noses in very dangerous places, and when the shit hits the fan, their magic tends to be indiscriminate and causes a lot of collateral damage.

Low Wisdom also doesn't mean that the mage is mean, cruel or immoral.

For instance, Dave often uses Harry Dresden as well known an example in fiction of what would be considered low Wisdom mage. He's definitely a "good" guy, but often leaves a trail of destruction in his wake.

>>43941655

Nope.

The Changeling 2e spoilers have also dried-up. David Hill wasn't happy with some of the draft material, replaced one or more freelancers, and has mostly gone dark on the OPP forums for what appear to be personal reasons.

>>43941115
Your average Werewolf will beat your average Vampire, and a Werewolf built for combat will beat a Vampire built for combat. The fight becomes a horrible slog if they're both old and the vampire focuses on guns and Celerity though.

I'm also pretty sure that all but the most powerful Mages are gonna have a problem against a Demon that's Gone Loud.

>>43941549
If we were talking about potential power, then Changelings would be the top of the totem pole, because Pledges and Oaths are so hilariously broke.

I believe Dave indicated that proportionally there are many more high Gnosis mages than other splat members with high power stats, particularly due to the advantages gained from Legacies, the availability of Arcane Experience, etc.

This setting quirk will undoubtedly upwardly shift the median power level for mages compared to other groups.

>>43941209
>>43941432
What makes Demons and Mummies so powerful? I'm not too familiar with either game line beyond the basic premises.

>>43941823
They're basically all powerful with the caveat that if they use that power they will be found and exterminated by Angels/Godmachine.

They basically have to hide deep cover style to even use glimpses of their true power.

>>43936772
>Vampire
Imagine Game of Thrones, but with Vampires and modern-day.

>Beast
Imagine a gameline where you're SUPPOSED to embody every negative stereotype about WoD players.

If I wanted to run a game of Mage: the Awakening, am I better off waiting for 2e?

>>43942049
I'd wait for 2e.
Though that's going to be a month or few.
We'll know on the 12th.

>>43934888
Irraka Bone Shadow is the best combination. Crawl into dark places and find their secrets.

If not, Ithaeur Iron Master.

I suppose I like that Renown combo...

>>43941441
>Atlantean doctrine of reincarnation.

Which is?

>>43941294
Read the Obrimos watchtower section in ToW, then tell me that the Tower of the Golden Key isn't the God Machine.

>>43941823
So basically, the God Machine controls reality, but it's either unable or unwilling to make fine manipulations on the individual level, so it sends Angels to do it instead.

When Angels Fall, they become Demons. During their Fall, Demons gain some glimpse into the Divine Plan, so to speak, allowing them the ability to manipulate reality. Subtle manipulations are Embeds. which are generally like a combination of Mage rotes and Changeling contracts. Then you have bog, sweeping changes which are Exploits, which can do literally impossible things.

The problem is, if you're caught, you'll almost certainly be killed or brought back to the Machine, where you'll be disassembled and retooled.

When a Demon Goes Loud, he burns the thin layer of Mortal Soul he uses to shroud him from the Machine and its Agents, and in doing do, reconnects to the 'Divine Plan', basically having the power to manipulate reality at will in an almost unlimited amount. Barring exceptional circumstances, a Demon that has Gone Loud is basically unkillable and unbeatable. The problem is, after that Scene, he's Burned and Exposed, meaning very, very few Demons will even deal with him, and until he re-assumes Cover, he will always be chased by the Machine because it knows where he is.

>>43942112
Apparently Souls used to reincarnate or something.
Rise to the Supernal, come back down into babies.
Might be bullshit, might have been fucked with by the breaking of the Celestial Ladder.
Might just happen and we have no way of proving it.

Either way, the Soul goes 'somewhere' when you die, so that's pretty decent reason for many to believe in an afterlife.

Others believe the Soul is created at birth from the 5 previously Subtle Arcanum of Mind, Fate, Spirit, Death and Prime, which might suggest that a Master of all of these could create a Soul.

However it would likely be an act of Supreme Hubris, and Masters of that level are rare.

>>43942067
>Irakka Bone Shadow
Sneaky wolf is best wolf.

>>43941823
>What makes Demons and Mummies so powerful?

Both have the ability to be at the maximum of the power stat during the game. Mummies actually start at Sekhem 10 and descend - quite rapidly - from there (hence the name of the game.) But when they first wake up, they can throw around their strongest shit. For Mummies, that's powers that border on the Biblical in strength. This is also the time when they're least human and practically incapable of any thought other than "KILL INTERLOPER. RECOVER AMULET. GO TO SLEEP."

Demons, as has already explained, can shed all their covers and Go Loud, a desperation move that gives them their original form at the expense letting the GMC know right where they are.

>>43942436
I like Irakka Iron Master. Face in the crowd, wolf in sheep's clothing.

Yesterday, while discussing the attitudes of some OPP developers and writers, some here inquired whether DaveB was ever snarky or dismissive on the forums. Ask and ye shall receive.

In response to yet another Mage vs. Hunter debate on the OPP Mage forums, Dave amusingly stated the following,

"I am sustained by the tears of Hunter fans."

I couldn't agree more.

http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/mage-the-awakening/774491-2nd-what-you-guys-liked-or-disliked-in-mtaw-2nd?p=778142#post778142

>>43941682
I think it's more that some people in this thread are talking about 1e Wisdom (which very much was Morality, plus extra magical ways to also be an evil dick) - including, ostensibly, the "I've never seen a group stay above Wisdom 6" guy, considering 2e isn't out yet - while other people are discussing 2e Wisdom, which is much more focused on how careful you are about collateral damage and only harming the things you intend to come to harm.

>>43942067
>If not, Ithaeur Iron Master.
As someone playing an Ithaeur Iron Master in 2e, they get fucked by favored gift overlap.

So, whenever Mage 2e comes out, I have an idea to run a crossover campaign with Mage and Demon, playing on the idea that the seers and the god-machine are on the same side.

Is this a workable idea?

>>43942548
He can be kind of a prick regarding Hunter, yeah. In fact, I think him getting into an argument about Hunter and actually getting mildly upset was what provoked the "I need to spend more time on 4chan" comment.

>>43942574
>>43942548
Considering that hardcore Hunter fans tend to sit around and spout shit like Hunters should be immune to Lunacy and the Lie, I'd get pretty tired of them quite soon too.

>>43942588
From what I remember of the thread in question, Dave was hearing "Hunters should be immune to things like Lunacy, the Quiescence, and the Lie", while the people he was arguing with were hearing "Sleeper Hunters who try to hunt Mages should be immediately and irrevocably fucked, no save. If you want to hunt Mages, either use this Hunter-specific "witch" version from the Hunter books, or if you want to have your PC Mages hunted, use the Mage-specific Mage-hunters who are also Mages, Banishers, because the only thing that deserves to be able to decide that Mages need to die and actually pull it off is more Mages."

Needless to say, that is not what either party was actually saying.

>>43942574

I don't believe Dave is a prick about Hunter. In fact, I've seen him be quite complimentary about the game, and looking forward to 2e, including very positive comments about its developer, Monica Valentinelli .

However, Mage has some very distinct setting, themes, and mechanical elements, including the Quiescence. He is unsurprisingly unwilling to make fundamental changes to Mage because a very small but loud and disgruntled minority wants Tier 1 and 2 fully mortal Hunters to have better odds at hunting mages.

Dave has -repeatedly- explained his reasoning, suggested alternatives and workarounds, and has always abided by the Golden Rule of doing whatever you want in your own games. I, too, would be more than a little cranky having the same conversation over and over again, often with people who have deficient diplomatic skills and less than amicable personalities. I give him credit for only resorting to mild snark.

Why would mages not seek immortality, especially once they have mastery?

>>43942461
I just realized I mixed up my names. Mummy is The Curse. Demon is The Descent.

Man, I'm an idiot.

>>43942715
It's weird in that Mummies have a Descent.

>>43942658
>Dave has -repeatedly- explained his reasoning, suggested alternatives and workarounds
What work arounds?
Also, isn't stuff like paradox much better for Hunters as is? There's even a Thaumatech implant that gives Paradox to every supernatural power. The only real place that it's an issue--and where Promethean Disquiet is an issue--is when you're doing a mixed game. And there it's easy to just say... "Sleepwalker Merit".

Hell, doesn't Lunacy also present just as much of a problem? Why don't people worry about that?

>>43942732
But people forget magic, which is, apparently unplayably crippling for the hunters.
Provided they aren't any of the groups with internalised supernatural powers, or have bought the (in second edition) dirt-cheap sleepwalker merit.

But all in all, yes,sleepers are far better protected against mages than sleepwalkers are.

>>43942732
>What work arounds?
> One dot Sleepwalker Merit

You answered your own question.

Nevertheless, I also do not understand why Quiescence is so problematic, but Lunacy, Disquiet, etc., don't seem to elicit the same response.

>>43942569

It sounds like a great idea. Don't worry about the canon - you can make it work for your game, and that's what matters.

>>43942695

Depends on the character. Some people are just scared of the idea of living forever.

>>43942695
Because Immortality prevents Ascension. Ascension is basically dying and becoming ̶a̶ ̶F̶o̶r̶c̶e̶ ̶G̶h̶o̶s̶t̶ a higher being.

Stargate actually handled that pretty well with Daniel Jackson.

Anyone play fan made splats/ Templates? Like Genius? How has that turned out for you?

>>43942781
I wasn't talking about canon. I was thinking about power level and theme clash.

>>43942811
There's absolutely nothing in the books that indicates you have to die to Ascend.

Hell, some of the earliest stuff implies that if you die, you've missed your chance to Ascend.

>>43942901
I've been running a Genius campaign for years. The fluff is wonderful, but the mechanics are a mess.

>>43942811

Ascension usually follows Archmastery and all Archmasters are effectively immortal within their Golden Roads.

>>43942968
And even when they aren't, there are plenty of things one can do with Imperium to become immortal.

>>43942910

Theme might take a little finangling, but you should be able to get that to mesh easily. What sort of ideas did you have for your game?

As for power level...Demon and Mage are a descently close match over the mid term from my experience. High end levels might be a little fucked. And IIRC Mages have a bit of a head up over demons as starting characters.

Why hasn't there been a book featuring Djinn player characters? They already have a lot of real-world folklore to go off of, different types inc Marid, Houri, Ifrit, etc.

>>43943253
Because, like Mummy, it is EXREMELY bound to the cultures it comes from.
Mummy ran with it, and still got a ton of criticism for ho they did it.

We get a bit of that theme in Changeling though.

I'd honestly rate mummies slightly above Demons Gone Loud.
Their ability to just be completly unkillable for several rounds is hard to top, and they get stuff like the ability to gain blanket immunity to mind affecting powers, to shut down supernatural healing, or circumvent health levels entirely by going for your willpower.

>>43940185
>It rains like a bitch
>but you gain the benefits of Obfuscate, which you already had

You a crazy ass nigga

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Goddamn it, I just want to play a game of Hunter with Hunters doing Hunter things.
Why is that so hard to get off the ground?

>>43943438
>Why is that so hard to get off the ground?
Gaming groups are, unsurprisingly, not aerodynamic.

>>43943438
Nobody wants their character to have a vulnerable, delicate, normie butthole.

If it can kill an elephant, can it kill a Lupine if you use half a dozen of them? We've got a festering infestation of the bastards, and I'm contemplating acquiring some gun-toting thugs to help out.

>>43943456
If you are talking poison, it's unlikely. Werewolves are pretty resistant to poison, and practically immune to it when they fluff out.
Gun-toting thugs is also a bad idea. Hire south-african mercs. You need badasses to take out werewolves.

>>43943495
Aren't Soufricans stale now? It's 2015 in the chronicle.

>>43943552
Bomb a government building and make sure they get the blame. The US will take care of the rest

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>>43943597
>War on Werewolf Terror

>>43943405

Mummy's are tough, but a High End Mage or Demon are in a whole different league. Time travel, re-writing fate, complete mind subjection. Not to mention that a Mummy probably falls under the purview of Death which opens a whole new kettle of fish.

>>43942952
When you Ascend you stop being a person, and Mages who Ascend are functionally immortal.

Yeah, you need to be alive to Ascend, but Ascension is a form of death. You leave your body behind and your soul crystalizes.

>>43942968
Ascension doesn't usually follow Archmastery, Archmastery outright requires Ascension from what I can tell. You can't reach Arcana 6+ while staying on this mortal coil.

>>43942901
Princess' 2e version was surprisingly well made.

>>43944053
>Time travel
Mummies have that. Also not all that great against them.

>>43944053
>re-writing fate
Mummies can do that and get good defenses against it.

>>43944053
>complete mind subjection
Beast Soul Fury laughs a mind subjugation.

Seriously, Mummies get some over the top shit.

>>43944075
>Archmastery outright requires Ascension from what I can tell
It requires you to seek, and then breach the threshold, and travel to the Supernal realms, yes.

>>43944095

You and me must be reading different books. Mummies ain't shit compared to most of the WoD breaks - especially Demons. But I'll admit I've only played a little Mummy, so I'm open to a re-education.

Because from what I'm reading, Mummy defenses aren't that great and I'm not seeing anything on time travel.

>>43944075
>Ascension doesn't usually follow Archmastery, Archmastery outright requires Ascension from what I can tell. You can't reach Arcana 6+ while staying on this mortal coil.

Acension is the step beyond Archmastery. Archmastery isn't a necessary step, though. There are other ways.

>>43944236
>Because from what I'm reading, Mummy defenses aren't that great
That surprises me, because they have both the flat out most powerful "stay functioning" power in the NWoD (going just by Actual Plays, most Mummies rapidly get into of 15-20 rounds of being completly unkillable), they have one of the best anti-supernatural-power abilities of basically all splats in Rebuke the Vizier, are basically the only splat with a perfect defense style ability against mind control and mind reading, get very powerful regeneration and up to 20 Health levels before size increases from powers like Blessed is the God King.
That's pretty great by any measure.

>>43944236
>I'm not seeing anything on time travel.
In the newest book AFAIK, but I don't have that handy.

>>43944390
>>the flat out most powerful "stay functioning" power in the NWoD

It's useful in combat, but from what I've seen a big enough hit early enough can drop them. But to be fair, the longer they last the longer they can last. I'll pay that, but in a fight with a Mage/Demon you shouldn't expect to last that long.

>>splats in Rebuke the Vizier

>>In the newest book AFAIK, but I don't have that handy.

That might be the issue - I've only used the core rulebook.

>>43944431
>It's useful in combat, but from what I've seen a big enough hit early enough can drop them
You don't need an extra action to Seal the Flesh. Activate it right at the start and nothing can kill you for a number of rounds equal to your total dots in Pillars. So a minimum of 9 rounds for a Mummy freshly out of Chargen.
That's a minimum of 9 rounds the Mage/Demon has to survive before he has any chance of winning at all, during which time the Mummy gets to apply it's pretty insane offensive capabilities, dispells all your defenses and shuts down any form or healing or regeneration you may have.
The more combat focused Mummy in the actual play on the OPP forum has a total of 20 dots of Pillars by now. That's 20 rounds of being unkillable.
Rebuke the Vizier is in the Core and can't both defend against supernatural powers and dispell them without a resistance roll. It can explicidly do stuff like shut down active Vampiric Disciplines.

>>43944518
>Rebuke the Vizier is in the Core and can't both defend
can!
stupid spelling mistakes

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Am I That Player for designing an Unchained with close to no combat capability aside from 3 dots in Improvised Weapon?

I've not played this before, and I'm afraid my party is just too polite to call me an idiot/secretly hope I drop.

The issue is basically that I want to play the kind of ex-Psychopomp who never fully detached hi-- itself, rather, from what it was made to do, and combat's just not one of them.

Thoughts? Am I being an idiot narrativist or is having two fighty characters in the party enough already?
>>43944518
>>43944431
>>43944390
Rebuke is such a fun word.

What if Risen with a Sin-Eater cult?

>>43942610
>Sleeper Hunters

I always considered Hunters to not be "sleepers" anymore. At least, not in the sense that they ignore the supernatural and aren't aware of any of it. I mean, their entire purpose is to go out and find crazy shit like vampires and werewolves and kill them.

I like that hack in reloaded that gives them a plus 1 to resist rolls (such as to lunacy and the like) when other hunters are in the same scene as you.

>>43940185
Lame desu senpai

Gonna point >>43940679 out and see what people think from the morning crowd.

>>43944641
>Am I That Player for designing an Unchained with close to no combat capability aside from 3 dots in Improvised Weapon?
World of Darkness is a game where Combat Happens, not a Combat Game. If you've got enough Weaponry to use Improvised Weapon style, you're good. Hell, better than other characters, even.

>>43942768
>I don't understand why Quiescence is so problematic, but Lunacy, Disquiet, etc., don't seem to elicit the same response.

Well Lunacy gives a chance to resist which gets higher when people are in a large group together. It also gives the ST the option to make people fight or flee what they're seeing (it even sometimes occurs *after* the encounter), so it's not an immediate win condition or anything.

I don't know what 2e Quiescence looks like but Lunacy has effects in place that seem designed to give Hunters a chance against it.

>>43944518
>>That's a minimum of 9 rounds the Mage/Demon has to survive before he has any chance

Can't both Mages and Demons keep away from you for nine rounds really easily?

I mean, isn't the point of Mage/Demon character that they are versatile?

Don't get me wrong, from what you're describing they sound like beasts in a straight punch up. But what kind of Mage would let you get into a straight punch up?

Mages are considered high-tier power for the same reason fanboys consider Batman high-tier. With enough planning or forethought, they can counter any threat.

Just my two cents.

>>43945310
I don't think Quiescence does.

>>43945310
Lunacy is dependent on your character's Willpower, isn't it? I think below a 4 in Willpower and your character can't do dick even if they wanted to vs Lunacy.

>>43945415
That is indeed correct, though 9-10 willpowered people can basically ignore it. But that was 1e, I think he was talking about 2e Lunacy.

>>43945399

Quiescence just is. If you're a sleeper, you cannot remember the magic.

Though the flip side is that seeing magic causes paradox, which tends to be volatile against mages.

>>43945434
Dammit. I'm out of touch, that's the second fucking time that's happened. Sorry. I just haven't gotten around to looking at anything 2e.

>>43945310
>I don't know what 2e Quiescence looks like but Lunacy has effects in place that seem designed to give Hunters a chance against it.

Quiescence makes you forget that it was magic that did something, and rationalize it as something else. In extreme cases, where this is completely impossible, it'll cause amnesia instead.

>>43945415
In 2e it's a Breaking Point, modified by some stuff. Being in a large group helps, and if you were injured by the werewolf, it also helps.

>>43945452
>>43945310
>>43945446
In 1e the higher your Willpower the more likely you were to completely unravel a spell. I don't even think Quiescence is a 100% "you always forget" thing, either. Hunter: The Vigil certainly doesn't treat it as if it is, and that's what you should be worrying about if you're playing a Hunter: The Vigil game.

Also, does anyone else think it would be a nice idea if suffering a Breaking Point from watching a Mage do something had a chance of turning you into a Proximus, just like how you might turn into a Wolfblooded?

>>43945804
>Also, does anyone else think it would be a nice idea if suffering a Breaking Point from watching a Mage do something had a chance of turning you into a Proximus, just like how you might turn into a Wolfblooded?

I completely disagree.
Sleepwalker, most certainly, but not a Proximus.

You know the Lower realms the Seers chuck Sleepers into to make them into Hollow Ones? Which Arcanum is it missing? I'm guess either Spirits or Mind, maybe even both.

>>43945906

It could just have Mind and Spirit fused together as an Arcana (which, like you said, would make both absent). Might make a person easier to control.

>>43942569
This is why I prefer nWoD crossovers are exponentially easier to manage.

>>43945963
Well, seeing as Hollow Ones literally cannot keep a personality or memories for more than an hour without magical assistance, I'd say you're right.

>>43942695
When a Mage awakens the experience fundamentally changes how they view the world.

A Moros sees death as natural as breathing.
An Acanthus sees how a persons time must end.
A Thrysus sees how life must end for new life to begin.

The concept of death is really only spiritually abhorrent to an Obrimos and to a lesser degree a Mastigos.

If you want your mage to become superhuman the safest way is to reach Arch-mastery. Considering the whole bag of headaches that brings immortality is probably more trouble than it's worth.

>>43945376
>Can't both Mages and Demons keep away from you for nine rounds really easily?
>I mean, isn't the point of Mage/Demon character that they are versatile?
Don't most of those require the Mage/Demon to use powers to be able to keep the distance? Mummies can shut those off over any distance.
You can start Seal the flesh with your lowest Pillar. If they then keep away you reactivate it with the next Pillar only when they close again.
A mummy is also pretty terryfiying at grapping, which can keep most enemies close by.

(But for Mages, I'd also put them above mummies thanks to their versatility. I was mostly talking in reaction to the "Demon going Loud > Mummy" comment. If necessary a Mage can just teleport to their holiday home and apportate bombs onto their enemy.)

>>43945871
Why?
I like the whole "you fucked up and now this person is your responsibility" thing.

>>43946255
Because the dynastic lines of the Proximi is a very important part of their theming.

>>43946304
Also because dear god I can see the internet chucklefucks refusing to shut up about instant proximi just add breaking points from here.

Sleepwalkers still have that element of "this shit is your fault, what are you gonna do with the poor sod", too.

>>43946956
Yep. And both Vampire and Werewolf have it already. Mages don't need that kind of stuff bothering them up in their ivory tower.

Not to be a Frodo, but why did none of the Exarchs end up being less than utter dicks?

>>43947220
perhaps only utter dicks desire to rule the universe?

and it does seem to be important to the Exarchs that their rule is absolute, so they've got to be pretty fucking ruthless to maintain that. a lot of people would have been content to ascend to the Supernal and just sort of add their voice to it. those are the people that get fucked over by the ones that want to have it all.

>>43947220
Perhaps it's just those who nothing less than utter dicks managed to become Exarchs? Possibly due to the utter dicks who became the Exarchs.

>>43947220
I think those are called the Oracles.

>>43948915
Pretty much.

>>43949042
>>43948915
Aren't the Oracles confined to the Astral?

Is it just me, or is the Primordial Dream basically just Deep Umbra with some vague nods to the Consensus?

>>43949378
>>43947220
It's like ghosts in Ghost Story, from Dresden Files. Only crazy Oracles get to have slaves and power in the mortal world.

Which non-OC being could I have a cult worship? Should be neither a Mummy nor a Mage/Exarch/Oracle or Demon/Angel/GM, yet strong enough to actually give some boons.

>>43949499
Archdemon from Inferno

>>43949499
A spirit of some power?

>>43949499
>Which non-OC being could I have a cult worship?
An OC that doesn't actually exist, even though the cult has real power

>>43949593
Not him but do spirits give a fuck about being worshipped ever? Wouldn't that mean the Circle of the Crone really ARE worshipping Luna?

>>43949696
>even though the cult has real power
I don't think that's how WoD works anywhere, post-Consensus.

>>43949696
Why not The Horror of an Ugallu?

>>43949713
>Not him but do spirits give a fuck about being worshipped ever?

Sure, mortals who are already devoted to you don't cost essence to manipulate

>>43949750
Because that would mean using Beast.

>>43950048
You haven't read Guards! Guards!, have you? It's a reference to the cult that summoned the dragon to bring down Vetinari.

>>43949713
Rites or ceremonies could be easy sources of essence to feed on for the right kind of spirit.

>>43949735
It can. Nothing needs to be Consensual about that. It could just be a Tulpa or something similar. Or it's one big magic feather.

>>43950098
Never read Discworld, but I'm going to take a leap and say that's an incredibly oblique metaphor that only you would get.

>>43949713
Circle of the Crone likely worship The Dark Mother, I don't know why you'd think Luna. Actually, there's a ghost in one of the Night Horrors books that is The Crone. Her Anchor is the very concept of Cruac itself, though she doesn't seem at all like the Crone. Maybe she was the Maiden? It's been a while.

But yes, Spirits like worship. It provides Chiminage, and can help strengthen them. There's a reason deities would be high rank spirits.

>>43950516
>Never read Discworld, but I'm going to take a leap and say that's an incredibly oblique metaphor that only you would get.
Not really, Vetinari's original secretary wanted to overthrow him and for some reason. To that end he founded the Elucidated Brethren of the Ebon Night with the goal of Summoning a Dragon so that someone could kill it and be made a Hero, unfortunately, when the dragon returned of its own accord and killed them (sans their leader and the one member who was buying pizza), the Hero in question didn't really touch the sides.

The reason I dragged Beast into this kicking & screaming is because one of the Families tied to the myth of Dragons is the Ugallu. But in this case the Ugallu in question is wondering where the fuck his horror has buggered off to.

Can Mage be used to make a darker kind of Harry Potter world? Not so much Hogwarts but the actual magical society.

>>43950650
Yes.

You'd have to make dragons and goblins and shit yourself though. And wands and polyjuice potions and all that shit.

2e NWoD when??

>>43950669
>polyjuice potions
Would that potion be Life-based or Matter-based. I know Obrimos potions would be created in a manner similar to those in the Dresden Files.

>>43950669
>And wands
They probably use a Sample from some supernatural thing that has the best ties to your Path.

>>43944742
>I always considered Hunters to not be "sleepers" anymore. At least, not in the sense that they ignore the supernatural and aren't aware of any of it. I mean, their entire purpose is to go out and find crazy shit like vampires and werewolves and kill them.
Dave talked about this solution as well in that argument: if this is how you want to treat Hunters, give all Hunters (even the Tier 1 guys) the Sleepwalker merit. The scales have been lifted from their eyes, even if they don't have any powers.

Tier 2 and 3 Hunters with inherent powers (as well as anyone with a supernatural merit from the GMC book) are automatically Sleepwalkers without needing to take the Sleepwalker merit (which is specifically for "Sleepwalker with no other powers").

Fun fact: TFV, despite being Tier 3, are Sleepers.

>>43950631
Yeah, that's too vague. Tangential at best.

>>43950650
On Wanton Wicked once, someone wanted to make an academy for newly Awakened mages, in an old warehouse. Also I've mused over a setting where Awakenings start happening more and more often, primarily among teens and young adults, and while this might be a Good Thing if you want an Awakened World, it still presents enough problems that the Pentacle around the world starts working together and creates Academies for Mages.

So basically literally Harry Potter but Mage.

>>43950844
Wands actually already exist. They're Yantras. Previously they were Magical Tools.

>>43950769
Alchemy is always Matter+Other. Polyjuice Potion would be Matter 3+Life 4, in 1e.
"Obrimos" stuff is mostly made with Matter+Forces, and comes in the form of Powder. EXPLOSIVE powders. Only for things like gravity and electricity.
This is in Tome of Mysteries.

>>43945804
>I don't even think Quiescence is a 100% "you always forget" thing, either.
I know in 1e Mage, your Willpower score determined how much you remember, as a Sleeper, with Willpower 10 humans (ostensibly rarer than hen's teeth) being flat-out immune to Quiescence.

>>43942307
>The problem is, after that Scene, he's Burned and Exposed, meaning very, very few Demons will even deal with him, and until he re-assumes Cover, he will always be chased by the Machine because it knows where he is.
Are there any actual mechanics to prevent you from piling up a one-point Cover specifically for the purposes of Going Loud that you replenish afterward every time, while slipping back into your stronger main cover to wait off the heat?

>>43951814
No, besides your limited amount of space for Covers. If I remember correctly, you have max space for covers = to Primum.

That's actually an intended tactic, as far as I can tell. It isn't foo-proof, but it works.

>>43951880
So just go up to Primum 2 ASAP, then develop a one-dot burner Cover?

Of course, that would require your primary cover to be plausible in all situations.

Does anyone happen to have the werewolf 2.0 pdf?

>>43951983
Yep

>>43951907
The burner cover can get unraveled if it isn't one that is supposed to never show up anywhere. Also it's not THAT easy to acquire new covers. But yeah, it IS an intended tactic. I mean, the starter adventure explicitly gives you a possibility to acquire a cover for exactly that reason.

>>43950650
So to do something like this, would you reccomend Ascension or Awakening?

>>43951992
Could I have it?

>>43952055
If you Google "Forsaken 2e pdf" you could

>>43952055
Sorry I don't have a spare one to give

>>43952086
Unfortunately it seems my googlefu is shit.

>>43952232
http://auto-download.com/download/get/3V0J663zce/werewolf_the_forsaken_-_second_edition_download_final_pdf.html

I literally told you what to google. I'm not an wee/a/boo and don't mind "spoonfeeding" how to get something, but really now...

>>43952055

http://www.4shared.com/office/HsDxzMKnce/WtF001_Werewolf_the_Forsaken_-.htm

>>43952275
>>43952300
Thank you based anons!

>>43952106
>Sorry I don't have a spare one to give

One of my all time favourite responses of.. today, I guess

>>43952037

Mechanically 1e Awakening (2e probably even more so) is easier to world build with than Ascension.

Ascension thematically is more friendly to the technophobic world of harry potter.

Can demons get drunk?

>>43952975
IIRC yes, but only until they switch to another cover.

>>43950945
>I know in 1e Mage, your Willpower score determined how much you remember, as a Sleeper, with Willpower 10 humans (ostensibly rarer than hen's teeth) being flat-out immune to Quiescence.

1st Ed was. But unless I'm missing something in a splat, 2nd Ed Quiescence is 99% except for Sleepwalkers.

>>43934722
>Anyways, what's everyone's favorite supernatural template? Whether you like it thematically, or mechanically, or whatever, which one do you like the most?
Werewolf, then vampire and hunter.

The others are too far away from horror for my liking and burdened by unappealing (to me) fluff.

>>43945452
>Quiescence makes you forget that it was magic that did something, and rationalize it as something else. In extreme cases, where this is completely impossible, it'll cause amnesia instead.
It also causes a Breaking Point, for witnessing it and for remembering it later. Meaning you can never remember a Mage doing magic without being a Sleepwalker.

What are the other expansions like, flavor/playstyle-wise? I've only ever been in Hunter campaigns due to a single-minded GM, but want to try to run/be in more of them- I enjoyed Hunter, but am becoming bored of it.

>>43953398
http://1d4chan.org/wiki/World_of_Darkness

How do you like to depict the Hedge? I prefer to take quite a bit of inspiration from the Alice Madness Returns series aesthetically and Limbo from the new DMC. Warped reality that twists and blends into natural overgrowth the deeper one goes. In these cases the "Thorns" don't necessarily have to be actual thorns, but things that catch, cut, and tear as one passes through them, like metal fences or broken glass.

>>43954601
I do it like Alice in Wonderland. Straight up, just make all the characters slightly more insane.

>>43954601
I go with the Hedge mimicking the nearby scenery at the periphery and slowly giving way to the classic walls of thorns the deeper they get in. Anything with high Wyrd can influence the Hedge just by being there, though, which means powerful Changelings and of course Keepers, will have the Hedge reflect their own mien and personality.

The Hedge is also psychoreactive in general, so it tends to warp itself to your mental state, being more terrifying if you're afraid, or more...well, it's never nice, but perhaps placid if you're calm.

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>>43954719
That anon does it right.

(Bonus points for anons getting the file name, even if not relevant to the post, still very WoD)

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>>43954800

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>>43954800
I don't know the filename, but that's clearly Coraline.

>>43954853
Are we doing WoD filenames now?

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>>43954936
>I don't know the filename, but that's clearly Coraline.
Wait, is it? I've never seen the film, and the book association was lost on me when I saved the file, it was a long time ago.

Since I lack witty filenames atm, have another general WoD pic.

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>>43955039
Other Mother has buttons for eyes, and if I recall wants to give Coraline button eyes. Coraline also has blue hair in the movie.

Have a general WoD pic turned into a WoD general pic.

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I'm sure I could probably think of a better filename for this.

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>>43955215
> and if I recall wants to give Coraline button eyes
IIRC that's true

>Coraline also has blue hair in the movie.
Now that awakens my nerdrage for some reason.

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>>43955475
Why's that?

So I need some advice. I've been running some Vampire with a few friends of mine, and mainly due to a lack of experience it's been pretty much a mix of CoC and Shadowrun thus far. Essentially they were the assholes that got a job from higher up, stumbled into something that went way over their head and had to try to salvage the situation. The thing is, I think the players are at a good point to get into politics a little now. They feel pretty powerful and confident (as they've mostly had to deal with mortals and ghouls, the real threats they either (had to) outsmart or circumvent), they are known here and there and have the odd favour they can call in, and they've each started building a small but in the grand scheme of things pretty insignificant powerbase.
So essentially I want to show them the bigger world out there, how fucking dangerous all these scheming old beings with their intrigues are but also how rewarding it can be to rise into their ranks. Basically I want to scare them, lure them, and introduce them to a more politics and own-agenda focused world instead of the mission focused thing we had going on till now.
Sadly as I said I have no experience in this field. Any pointers and helpful advice?

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>>43955666
>checked
I don't know. She was black-haired in my imagination, and also not the type to care much about her looks, at least at the age she is in the story.

>>43955772
Not really sure, as I've never ever run or participated in a Vampire game. But what's their relationship with the local Prince? You can always try to show how their small-time plans were a part of the local Elders' plans that encompass an entirely other scope.

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>>43954936
>Coraline
That reminds me of the rather pretty, if rambling, Dodson take on a young Jules Verne-cum-mystical fairytail dream harem thing.

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>>43955912
>also not the type to care much about her looks
It's not dyed, she's just a cartoon character. Coraline the movie has a very cartoony aesthetic. There's a guy who's green. According to the medals on his chest, he helped with Chernobyl.

>>43955942
Tell me more. Mostly because I'm not sure what you said.

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>>43956004
You soothed my nerdrage, thanks. Man, I guess I have to see that movie some time.

>>43955912
>But what's their relationship with the local Prince?
They know he exists and have witnessed him from afar, but thus far they've dealt with lower echolons of power than him.

Oh yeah they have certainly been entangled in grander schemes and they are somewhat aware of it, I guess they can be made more aware.

What I am aiming for is having them use their current (over)confidence to take things a little too fast, step on the wrong toes, and fall on their face. But not hard enough to not have them try again.

I am just at a loss how to go about it.

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>>43956004
Just name recognition. There was a french comic a few years back called Songes Coraline, about a pretty governess/teacher/nanny who is hired by an estate to distract a young Jules Verne from his 'inventions'. She's beset by nightly fantastical dreams that take place through other major works of literature that take place around the turn of the 20th century, and the story grows progressively weirder, which is give-or-take.

It's quite pretty and this Coraline is basically my ideal of a perfect woman, but the art's better than the writing, especially towards the latter bits. Still, it reminded me because of the name and the fact that it sort of fits a light-hearted version of all-tales-are-true sort of world.

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>>43956134
They start to dog out their powerbases? Have them realize that some…thing else has already claimed not only the local 7–11 employees for themselves (I know, dumb example), but their fucking CEO. Have them search for not yet influenced people to influence.

…But then again, I may be talking out of my ass, as I said I have a limited understanding of Vampire.

>>43956676
I guess, still wrong thread. Sorry (even if you say very right things)

>>43956676

WTF? What does you comment have to do with anything in this thread or OP. Even the last thread that discussed some politics mostly involved different approaches to free speech between the USA and much of Europe.

Nevertheless, if you want to now why people dislike SJW's, you really need only look in the mirror.

>>43956676
How have you not been banned?

>>43956728
True though it may be, that copypasta and "if your GM uses the term loli report him to the police because he's a pedophile" keeps getting posted with that image. I've seen it like eight times now, and no just in the /wodg/. It's spam. Baitspam.

>>43956728
>>43956866

It's like you folks have never heard of "well-poisoning" trolling before. This same person's posting in every thread again, probably.

>>43956880
>>43956905
I've taken a 3 year break from 4chan until a couple days ago. Now I see this asshole posting it everywhere.

>>43942548

Continuing our earlier discussion about DaveB's snark, particularly concerning the Hunter vs. Mage debate, he's weighed in again, this time with a Firefly reference,

"(psst. Valkyrie's magical armamts don't count as an internal power - they're Sleepers, not Sleepwalkers!)

And "safety blanket?" Real nice backhandedly calling the game childsh. My days of not taking these complaints seriously are certainly coming to a middle."

http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/mage-the-awakening/774491-2nd-what-you-guys-liked-or-disliked-in-mtaw-2nd?p=778509#post778509

>>43955772

Depends on how you want to introduce them, but cleaning house is always a fun way. An older, more powerful prince takes over via force and cleans up shop - starting by wiping out the old princes Wet Work teams.

The players survive, catching the new Princes interest and he arranges an introduction. Players are introduced to the wider world of Vampire politics.

Have the Sabbat/Camarilla/Independent relationships played a part in your game so far?

>>43957063
http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/mage-the-awakening/774491-2nd-what-you-guys-liked-or-disliked-in-mtaw-2nd?p=778519#post778519
>Sorry that got missing a piece. I was writting on the phone, the complete sentence was "If a theme of mage that its fans likes to clutch as it safety blanket against many criticism about unecesary power high level is the abuse of power then the story of a mortal abused by a mage and that biting him in the ass with mundane means is proper with the theme."
What is this in English?

>>43957004

It's a common tactic: you post an opinion that might actually have supporters and is usually the opposite of how you really feel, and then you continuously post it so much that you condition people to hate it, and people who would be sympathetic to that opinion to be silenced.

The well is poisoned and no discussion can be made.

>>43957063

Man, I don't get why anyone would want Hunters to be immune to the Lie or Lunacy. The fun of Hunter is the overwhelming odds! The entire point is that you're an ordinary person against a larger, crueler world and it makes the victories all the sweeter.

That said, I hope Tactics are beefier in 2e.

>>43957307

In light of the Paradox acquisition of WW and radio silence from Monica, the alleged new Hunter developer, we cannot even be certain that Hunter 2e is still on-track.

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>>43955666
Lucifer's trips, nice.

>>43957503
What makes you say that?
Radio silence could mean "I'm working, leave me alone"

>>43957216

It looks like what he is saying is:

1. Mage as a game is a higher power level than the rest of the WoD line.
2. The reason for this - according to players of Mage - is because the theme of Mage is 'The abuse of power'.
3. If that is true, then the story of a mortal abused by a mage and then retaliating with mundane means fits into the theme of the setting.

All of which are points I agree with.

That being said, I have no idea what they are arguing about.

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>>43957613
>That being said, I have no idea what they are arguing about.
"I don't like that my Hunter forgets about Magic unless I buy a 1 Experience merit"

>>43957531

>>43957602
>>43957503

If Hunter 2e was really in danger, we would have heard already. What's happening right now is that Monica needs to write up an outline for the new edition that goes to Rich to approve, and then I believe to Paradox to approve. This process alone can take months, especially if there's multiple revisions of the outline needed.

>>43957685

They're bitching about Quiescence? Seriously? I've always seen that as one of the more interesting weak points a mage has to deal with. And there are ways to work around it as a hunter.

My Mage group got damn near fucked over by a Hunter who just went to the simple precaution of writing down what happens to him on a day to day basis and reading the results weekly.

Quiescence rationalizes what Sleepers see into something mundane. But if you see a lot of odd mundane shit over time, you can eventually figure out 'Hey - weird shit is going on'. Especially if the Hunter is aware that Quiescence is a thing.

>>43957926
To be fair, now Quiescence goes away at the end of a scene, and remembering the events is another Breaking Point followed by more forgetting.

I agree with you that it's one of the more interesting aspects. I had a character who did the whole Harry Dresden thing and it depressed him that he couldn't actually make shadows dance for his liaison at the police.

And the notion of a Hunter who just flat out doesn't trust his own memory is more than good enough to cause a problem for a Mage. "I know what I saw, but that can't be right... I know you were behind it, rational explanation be damned. You did something to me, you bastard, and I'm going to make you pay."

>>43957926
>>43958087

In 2e, each time your Hunter read his notes would it cause another breaking point and yet more memory loss or extreme rationalizations, and risk a vicious, repeating cyclic descent into madness. Dave made absolutely certain that if you're not a Sleepwalker or possess an inherent supernatural ability, you will not be able to cheat the Quiescent Curse.

http://theonyxpath.com/ill-lie-to-you/

The basics of being a Sleeper are as follows;

If a Sleeper character perceives an obviously magical effect caused by Supernal magic (whether it’s the powers of a Supernal entity or a mage’s spell) they immediately suffer a Breaking Point against Integrity.

If a Sleeper is present when a mage tries to cast a spell with an obviously magical effect, they add a die of Paradox Risk. Multiple Sleepers don’t add more dice, but apply a dice trick to the Paradox roll: 9-again for a couple of people, 8-again for a dispersed group like urban foot traffic, and rote factor for a large crowd.

Sleepers who come into contact with obvious spells after they’ve been cast slowly dispel them, in an effect mages call “Dissonance”

Quiescence: The scene after a Sleeper witnesses a spell – whether they caused it to crumble under Dissonance or not – they forget about it. Their memory warps, and they rationalize the event away or substitute a non-magical equivalent. Convincingly reminding them (including using magic to do so) causes them to suffer another Breaking Point, and then forget again.

>>43958275
>each time your Hunter read his notes would it cause another breaking point

I disagree. The Hunter only notes the mundane, rational explanation that his brain used to cover the Lie - he doesn't write down 'Lol magics'.

Re-reading the notes didn't make him suddenly realise 'Oh no, Magical Schenanigans' - only that something didn't add up. He isn't reminded that magic happened - only suspecting that something is wrong.

A prepared and informed Hunter might need only that to suspect a Mage. Because he can't remember the magic, he can never be certain, but that doesn't necessarily mean he won't act accordingly.

In short: A Hunter never has to see or remember magic to suspect a target is a mage.

>>43956004

>Clickity clack, get into my sack!

This will *NEVER* stop being funny.

I fear for Changeling.

No one seams to be mentioning good stuff, only that they are weak now. They were weak before.

I'm afraid /tg/. I am afraid.

Speaking on Quiescence, for the purposes of 1enWoD, would you allow someone with the Wolf-Blooded merit to be immune or have some small protection from the Quiescence? Those with Wolf-Blooded are not Werewolves or another supernatural, but they are typically children of the Uratha.

>>43958542

How can anyone way they are weak now when we've seen fuck all about them in previews besides the Seemings and Kiths? How can you be afraid for power levels we haven't seen a goddamn Contract yet?

I swear, people are jumping at shadows when it comes to power level.

>>43958388

I don't agree with your interpretation of the new Quiescence rules.

If a sleeper, Hunter or otherwise, witnesses supernal magic and writes notes concerning the event, re-reading them later will trigger the breaking point and subsequent memory loss.

The Hunter will effectively doubt his own notes. Absent total amnesia and thus a lack of desire to even seek out his notes, he'll firmly believe whatever occurred was entirely mundane in nature.

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Right so

All of the summaries I've found of Mummy: The Curse is that they're dead guys from a nameless empire who are occasionally woken up to go collect lost treasures and shit before dying off again (I assume until the next time they're needed). Is there really any value in playing them? Because they seem like they can't do much outside of their mission and I can't imagine that being too terribly interesting, which is a shame because I'm a fan of Egyptian-esque stuff.

>>43958559

In 2e, wolf-blooded possess a supernatural merit and considered sleepwalkers immune to the Quiescence. Of course, they also will not cause Dissonance or increased risk of Paradox.

I don't recall enough about wolf-blooded in 1e to recall if they're similar to 2e, but I doubt making them sleepwalkers would be problematic.

Note also that since anyone with an Integrity stat is subject to Lunacy, sleepwalkers and even Proximi do not posses a similar immunity to the effect as actual mages.

>>43958567
If anything, they're likely stronger.

>>43958542
No one's mentioned that they're weak, they've mentioned they don't like how Seemings changed.

>>43958559
>>43958689
Wolfblooded is a supernatural merit, and technically a supernatural template in 1e.

>>43958592
>The Hunter will effectively doubt his own notes.
Not that poster, but see >>43958087
>And the notion of a Hunter who just flat out doesn't trust his own memory is more than good enough to cause a problem for a Mage. "I know what I saw, but that can't be right... I know you were behind it, rational explanation be damned. You did something to me, you bastard, and I'm going to make you pay."
Quiescence makes the Hunter remember it differently, but that doesn't mean he has to believe his own memory or trust it.

>>43958639

There's a thing called the Sothic Turn that allows them to stay awake for a much longer period of time, so there's also the usual WoD politics with the Guilds and their Guildhalls, as well as the potential search for the Ascent. Mummies can be around for quite a bit of time after a Sothic Turn, and the latest one was in 2012. They can also rise intermittently with no real mission in between the turns, or wake up well before the Turn starts and remain active till then.

If you like pulpy games, Mummy's fun. A lot of its setting beyond the core is straight out of Clark Ashton Smith stories. I've been running a game for the past two years or so and our group still has a great time with it.

>>43958639

Every few thousand years Mummies awaken and are not bound to specific tasks. These are called Sothic Turns. Since we're conveniently experiencing one right now, PC Mummies can do most anything they wish.

My problem with Mummy is that it's still stuck with a first edition ruleset.

>>43958689
Well, wolf-blooded in 1e gives you quite a few benefits that are nice to have to great, depending on the game. The best of them, in my opinion, is counting your Willpower as 2 points higher for the purposes of determining the effects of Lunacy. So a human with 6 (or 7, I forget) Willpower would be completely unaffected by it. However, it's just a merit.

>>43958727
Really? Does having Wolf-blooded, a merit that only humans can have (since it specifies that becoming supernatural causes you to lose the merit) count you as having a supernatural template?

Furthermore, does having Unseen Sense make you similarly supernatural (since you also lose it's effects on gaining a template), so you would never be affected by Lunacy, Quiescence, or anything of the kind?

>>43958592
>If a sleeper, Hunter or otherwise, witnesses supernal magic and writes notes concerning the event, re-reading them later will trigger the breaking point and subsequent memory loss.

So lets present a situation.

In this scenario a Hunter witnesses...say...a mage throwing a fireball at a car and the car exploding.

Quiescence kicks in.

Hunter rationalizes it as the car explodes. However, hunter is canny - hunter knows cars don't just explode - so this doesn't quite do the trick. The Quiescence goes a few extra steps and says 'Someone threw a home-made bomb at the car, and the car exploded'. Something the Hunter could believe is within the realm of reality.

The hunter later on writes these notes down.

12/03/15: Someone threw a home-made bomb at a car.

---

Is your argument that the Hunter, when reading these notes "12/03/15: Someone threw a home-made bomb at a car." would re-trigger Quiescence?

Despite the fact that nothing about those notes is magical, nor are they forcibly or convincingly reminding him that what happened was actually a fireball?

My stance is that the hunter would read those notes and come to the conclusion "This doesn't normally happen every day".

I'm not saying he'll twig that magic was involved, only that the note could stand out when they re-read over everything that happened that week.

A suitably paranoid, informed or prepared hunter might then suspect magic - but can never be sure because as far as he's concerned he's never witnessed.

>>43958727
>Quiescence makes the Hunter remember it differently, but that doesn't mean he has to believe his own memory or trust it.

Quiescence makes any Sleeper either totally forget an event or convincingly rationalize it as completely non-supernatural. That's a lot more that just remembering something differently.

>>43958771

The Quiescence would indeed kick-in upon reading the notes.

It has nothing to do with whether the notes themselves are somehow magical. The Hunter witnessed supernal magic and suffered Quiescence, a breaking point and amnesia (the rationalization is only experienced with when amnesia is impractical). As a result, he probably wouldn't even feel the desire to read any notes he might have made. However, if he did read them, it would recall a supernal event. and thus again trigger the Quiescence. His chosen rationale for the supernal event is immaterial.

The rules are apparently designed to prevent the very type of "cheating" you suggest.

>>43958765
What counts as "human" and what counts as "supernatural" has always been vague. For instance, are Lucifuge supernatural? What about Malleus Hunters? Thaumaturgists? People with Psychic merits?

If someone has an actual template that gives them additional advantages (other than Hunter), they're Supernatural. if something gives them supernatural abilities, they're supernatural enough to be considered Sleepwalkers. DaveB has said that powers that are Internal make you a Sleepwalker (in the thread link above, he points out that Advanced Armoury doesn't count as Internal, and they're sleepers, for instance).

>>43958805
Cognitive dissonance. Which is ironic, considering usually Hunters are going the other way with that, and saying mundane things are supernatural :V

Hell, I'll just repost what I posted in the OPP thread (I finally saw Branford)
>But that's wrong and dumb. Remembering the event rationally doesn't mean they can't doubt their own memories, and it doesn't mean they can't research a mage. A proper Hunter cell should be able to deal with Purple Man going "forget about me" simply by understanding they have gaps in their memory and stories that don't add up. How did the man get across the room so fast? You remember him running, but there's no way he could have. It must be wizardry. Time to hit the library. (Turns out the solution is to hit it with a car)

>>43958915
Reading in your diary that someone threw a bomb at your car is not going to cause a Breaking Point. He would recall a firebomb being thrown at his car, and likely want to get revenge.

It's not really "cheating". It's being prepared, which is what Hunters are.

>>43958805
>convincingly rationalize it as completely non-supernatural. That's a lot more that just remembering something differently.

Convincingly rationalizing something as non-supernatural IS remembering it differently. The memory, as far as the Hunter is concerned, is fully sound. Nothing about the memory seems faulty.

My point is that just because a memory is completely rationalized does not mean it won't stand out upon recollection.

For the sake of this scenario, we're assuming amnesia would be impractical as it would leave a blank spot in otherwise complete records and be a bigger tell than just an odd memory.

>>43958915
>However, if he did read them, it would recall a supernal event

This is illogical. If you follow this assumption, than that means that any recollection of a Quiescence induced rationalization is inherently flawed and must therefore induce another instance of Quiescence.

Even assuming he did trigger Quiescence when reading it and recalling a Quiescence induced memory, then rationalised away the 'Car explosion' false memory as perfectly natural - all it would take then is someone else reading his journal. Like, say, a handler.

"So, you saw a car bombing on Thursday. That wasn't weird to you?"
"No."

By DavidB's own words

"Their memory warps, and they rationalize the event away or substitute a non-magical equivalent. Convincingly reminding them (including using magic to do so) causes them to suffer another Breaking Point, and then forget again."

The memory warps. Recalling that warped memory is not the same as convincingly reminding them. There is no reason another instance of Quiescence should occur on recalling a memory effected by Quiescence.

If that was the case, you'd make a constant spiral of recalling a memory affected by Quiescence of recalling a memory affected by Quiescence recalling a memory affected by Quiescence ect ect.

>>43958988
>Reading in your diary that someone threw a bomb at your car is not going to cause a Breaking Point. He would recall a firebomb being thrown at his car, and likely want to get revenge.
>It's not really "cheating". It's being prepared, which is what Hunters are.

If the Hunter witnesses an Awakened mage throwing a fireball, he will suffer Quiescence, i.e., an automatic breaking point roll and memory loss.

If he reads notes later that remind him of this supernal event, he will suffer the Quiescence again. It does not matter how he might have later rationalized the event or what he actually wrote in his notes.

>>43959075
It only causes Quiescence if he remembers "Oh, right, I got hit by a fireball, not a bomb". If he looks at it and says "what? No, that can't be right, how was that a bomb?" it doesn't.

>>43959075
>If he reads notes later that remind him of this supernal event, he will suffer the Quiescence again. It does not matter how he might have later rationalized the event or what he actually wrote in his notes.

That makes no sense.

Why would he remember the supernal event of Quiescence re-wrote what he remembered in the first place? It's just the same instance of Quiescence that he would be scrutinizing.

Lets look at a different scenario:

Hunter goes to the cinema to watch a movie.

Mage does weird flickery shit during the movie and is generally an annoying cunt.

Hunter suffers Quiescence.

Quiescence just writes over the whole event as 'went to see a movie, nothing weird happened other than the projector was a bit meh'.

Are you now saying that anytime that Hunter tried to recall that movie, he would suffer a new situation of Quiescence?

Doesn't that make a bigger plot hole and a weaker defense against the Lie than just letting them analyze a Quiescence affect memory and finding nothing wrong?

>>43959040

Under your theory, a memory warped by Quiescence becomes a later defense against Quiescence. That would be backward, and precisely opposite of what Dave intended as the nasty, pervasive, and inescapable nature of the curse.

As we are unlikely to ever agree with one another, I hope Dave deigns to offer his perspective when he wakes-up.

>>43959141
>Under your theory, a memory warped by Quiescence becomes a later defense against Quiescence.
No it doesn't. What are you even talking about?

Branford, is that really you?

>>43959126

It is my understanding that anything that causes recall of a witnessed supernal event, regardless of rationalization or explanation (i.e., notes, etc.), will cause the subject to again suffer Quiescence.

>>43959184
No, it's only something that causes the recall of the TRUTH.

>>43959141
>later defense against Quiescence

How the hell do you come to that conclusion?

Unless I'm reading it wrong, Anon. is saying that Quiescence isn't fool proof. All it does is stop Sleepers from Witnessing magic and breaking through the Lie. It doesn't act like a cover all 'You can't figure out something weird happened' button.

>>43959225

I don't believe that's the proper understanding of Dave's spoilers or comments.

We'll just have to wait (or hope) for Dave to offer some guidance, as this issue would apply to far more than just Hunters.

>>43959261
Remembering a thing happened isn't the same as remembering magic. Otherwise anyone who had ever seen magic would go insane because of the emotional trauma of all those Breaking Points.

>>43959244

No, I certainly believe there are many reasons why a Hunter may become suspicious and believe magic or the supernatural may responsible for events, and even that a particular individual may be responsible, with than person being an Awakened mage (that's why I find the Hunter v. Mage complaints foolish). However, the Quiescence prevents the witnessing of supernal magic from being such a reason.

>>43959261
>>43959184

Don't get me wrong - this isn't a fool-proof system. Going back to the example, the Hunter could easily have seen two rival gang members in the exchange and just chalked it up to gang violence. At no stage does he ever doubt the memory.

The only concept at work here is that analysis of events going on through your life could lead to obvious highlights.

If that was the only firebombing that hunter had seen all year, that should obviously stand out on later recollection.

However if he's seen five in the last fortnight, then it would be just another day.

It's hardly a defense. But there is clearly enough there for a GM to use as a plot hook for either mages or hunters, as it stays true to the rules and the spirit of Quiescence.

>>43959304
>Otherwise anyone who had ever seen magic would go insane because of the emotional trauma of all those Breaking Points

Possibly, and that's a feature, not a bug.

I certainly wouldn't want to be a Network Zero reporter reviewing his videos or notes about a supernal event he might have witnesses. It would be a express ticket to an insane asylum.

>>43959315

But anon. isn't saying that witnessing the event was the cause. He's not even saying remembering the event was the cause. He's saying that finding anything that stands out on your calendar is the cause.

>>43959347
>Possibly, and that's a feature, not a bug.

But the Quiescence exists to protect The Lie. Sending witnesses insane doesn't do that - it just paints a big glaring arrow saying "SHIT IS WEIRD HERE"

>>43959347
The way that it's phrased strongly implies it's the kind of thing where you need a little more than video proof.

I mean, people ALREADY will believe what they think was true even if they see evidence to the contrary. It's confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance.
"The politician you support wants to kill all gays" "No, I don't believe that's true".

>>43959398
Kind of like how in thrillers they always blow the lid off of the conspiracy because of the trail of bodies.

>>43959347
>>43959261
http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/mage-the-awakening/774491-2nd-what-you-guys-liked-or-disliked-in-mtaw-2nd?p=778797#post778797
>As we appear to have far different interpretations of the pertinent spoilers, hopefully Dave will offer a ruling or clarification.
Wow, Branford really does post here.

>>43959472
how could you not recognize that poncy faggot

>>43959398
>"SHIT IS WEIRD HERE"

This is the WOD. Shit was already weird here.

A few more obvious nutcases, babbling reporters, or tin foil hat conspiracy theorists are hardly even a statistic

>>43959427
>Kind of like how in thrillers they always blow the lid off of the conspiracy because of the trail of bodies.

Exactly.

If Quiescence worked like that, all Hunters would need to do to find Mages is check asylum and mental health clinic statistics.

What's this? The number of new intakes is five times higher than average in this small mid-western town? HUUUUNTERS, ASSSSEMBLE.

>>43959472
>Branford really does post here.

I do indeed post here on occasion, but mostly just read and check for spoilers when I have the time. However, I post far less than some seem to believe. It's quite amusing.

>>43959496
>If Quiescence worked like that, all Hunters would need to do to find Mages is check asylum and mental health clinic statistics.

Checking the recent intake at the local hospitals and police reports are excellent means of identifying possible supernatural activity, supernal or otherwise and should be done by all Hunter cells.

However, the rare and often contrived circumstances required to go completely, irreparably bonkers from the Quiescence should limit it's usefulness as a tool to identify and locate Awakened mages.

>>43959472

Who is Branford and why should we care?

>>43959525

Do you always have a harpsichord playing behind you every time you post? What sort of tea goes well with your post-4chan scones?

What's a Branford?

>>43959589

Tea: Earl Grey.
Music: Not to date myself, but mostly rock and pop form the 80's and 90's.

What else would you like to know?

>>43959584

I see a flaw in this idea that Quiescence sends sleepers mad.

Sending a sleeper mad is a spell.

Sleepers get a resistance to this. Not much of one, but it's there.

Quiescence has no defense.

If Quiescence was to send sleepers mad, why bother with a spell specifically designed to do it. Just let them witness subtle magic and let Quiescence do the rest.

>>43959598
>What's a Branford?

I'm a fairly regular poster on the OPP mage forums, and on rare occasion, here and rpg.net.

>>43959487
First time I've encountered him.

>>43959525
>However, I post far less than some seem to believe. It's quite amusing.
I don't doubt that, but it's nice that there's another boogeyman besides me.

Seriously, though, quit being fucking stupid. You're taking the least plausible intention and running with it, then when everyone points out how you're clearly reading it wrong you go "w-well dad said I was right, you just wait until he gets home to tell you I was right!"

>>43959585
>>43959598
That poster, having the same argument here that he's having there.

To be fair, I'm doing the same thing, but I didn't realize everyone was right when they said he posts here.

>>43959657

And why should anyone care?

>>43959650

The Quiescence always causes a breaking point when witnessing supernal events. By definition, it can cause a sleeper to go mad. The fact that certain spells could also mimic the effects is irrelevant.

>>43959669
>And why should anyone care?

I certainly never said anyone should.

I was responding to an actual question about myself.

>>43959665
>"w-well dad said I was right, you just wait until he gets home to tell you I was right!"

This.

>>43959665

I'm having the same discussion here as the OPP forums because I find the topic interesting (and can't sleep), and quite frankly, hoping to improve the odds that Dave actually offers a clarification.

As to the, ""w-well dad said I was right...," since Dave is the developer of the game, he's the only person in the position to offer a definitive answer to our disagreement.

>>43959679
>Quiescence always causes a breaking point when witnessing supernal events
>Quiescence causes a breaking point witnessing supernal events
>Quiescence breaking point supernal events

Do you see where I'm going with this?

A memory altered by Quiescence is not in and of itself a supernal event. Just as an object summoned with magic is not in and of itself a supernal event. People don't suffer Quiescence when looking at a magically summoned sword (provided it looks realistic and they did not witness the summoning). Nor would they suffer Quiescence when recalling a perfect memory created to cover the witnessing of a supernal event.

If Quiescence affect memories were supernal, than it would propagate itself indefinitely and cause a great risk to The Lie than just letting someone remember a supernal event.

>>43959732
Yes, but your version makes no sense. Mostly this, though >>43959752

And look at the wording used:
>"Their memory warps, and they rationalize the event away or substitute a non-magical equivalent. Convincingly reminding them (including using magic to do so) causes them to suffer another Breaking Point, and then forget again."
Convincingly.
Including using magic.
It's not just looking at your notes or some video.

>>43959766

Don't bother with him. His head is so far up his own ass the lump in his neck is his nose.

>>43958542
I don't concern myself with comparing it to other splats, as if i'm running Changeling i'm running it only. There are no other supernatural creatures, just things that come from stories.

Any good examples of Changeling the Lost actual play, like youtube videos or podcasts?

File: Let 'er Rip.png (461KB, 599x600px) Image search: [Google]

461KB, 599x600px

Making the new thread a bit early

>>43960473
>>43960473
>>43960473