/wodg/ World of Darkness General

Any good examples of Changeling the Lost actual play, like youtube videos or podcasts?

I hope Dave reads the old thread an clarifies the dispute over the different understandings of the effects of the Quiescence.

Why is immortality for nWoD mages a bad thing?

>>43960595
Because dying is a part of living.

>>43960640
But Life and Death are two separate arcana!

>>43960865
Ok, how about this: It's hella hubristic to put oneself above the natural order.

>>43961327
there is nothing natural about vamps,wolfmen,changling and mages so why would anybody care about natural order

>>43961364
Mages are natural. Terata should be eradicated.

I just had some horrible ideas for making a Bioshock-type Splat using Storyteller

>The ADAM and EVE tracks are like those from Promethean (You start with as many dots of EVE as you have dots of ADAM,and your ADAM is tied to your starting Humanity.) But the way ADAM interacts with your Humanity is like the interaction between Wyrd and Clarity in Changeling (When you hit 10 ADAM you suffer a Breaking Point, and your Humanity cannot go any higher than it currently is.)

>You are more likely to pick up derangements and you stop suffering Breaking Points related to things that a normal person would be freaked out by (This is less of a plus than you would think.).

>You suffer a Breaking Point as part of Chargen (Getting your first hit of a ADAM is rather horrifying.)

I'm not really sure what sort of first-time Breaking Points you would have, but injecting yourself with unprocessed ADAM and harvesting a Little Sister would be up there.

>>43960865
And yet all Moros Mages are supposed to accept their future deaths, come to terms with it, and live their lives walking hand in hand with death. Lewd, I know, I didn't write it.

Those that do not generally fall to left-handed paths that revolve around devouring the lives of the living to forestall their inevitable demises for a little while longer.

>>43960548
>I hope Dave reads the old thread an clarifies the dispute over the different understandings of the effects of the Quiescence.

The main effect of Quiescience against Hunter PCs seems to be to powerlevel them. The more often you get that breaking point for witnessing the supernal magic the better.

It's not like you have a big risk of failing that roll if you invested a bit into Resolve and Composure, have a high Integrity and meditate. And each Breaking Points gives you a Beat.
So record and write down everything, rewatch regularly.

>>43961724
>And yet all Moros Mages are supposed to accept their future deaths
Not all of them, but most of them, yes.
The exceptions make for great antagonists or PCs.

>>43960548

In the scene directly following exposure to the Supernal or Abyssal, a Sleeper forgets what she saw, or else changes how she remembers it toward the mundane. Any serious attempt to prod at those false memories, bring them into question, or correct them with magic trigger a breaking point as if she were witnessing the traumatic event again for the first time, followed by the memory being removed again. It is as harrowing in memory is it is in reality. Quiescence, like Dissonance, is not limited to the spells of mages; Sleepers’ memories are clouded by the interior of ruins of the Time Before, the presence of the Mad, Emanation Realms, and sighting Supernal or Abyssal entities.

Pretty much any Hunter tactic to take notes, record what's happening, or prod at Quiescence because you think a mage is nearby will put you on a one-way train to Crazytown, Paranoia. population: you.

Unless I can interest you in this shiny one-dot Merit called "Sleepwalker"...

>>43961988
You mentioned that Valkyrie agents, not having internalized their powers, aren't Sleepwalkers. But.. eh.. which of the hunter organisations are?

>>43961988
Dave, this may sound like a totally insane question...but do Minor Templates stack?

>>43961988
>Pretty much any Hunter tactic to take notes, record what's happening, or prod at Quiescence because you think a mage is nearby will put you on a one-way train to Crazytown, Paranoia. population: you.

Eh, Breaking Points are not that bad. Even with a -5 on your roll from having Integrity 1 and witnessing something supernatural, a Resolve + Composure of 6+ makes you 100% immune to critfailing the Breaking Point roll.
The worst thing will be the regular dicepenalties from conditions like Spooked, but you get sweet Breaking Point beats in return, so who cares?

>>43961988
>Sleepwalker
Remind me, are Sleepwalkers also immune to other mind-influencing effects thats don't work on the Supernatural?

Or just those Supernal in nature?

>>43962050
They aren't immune to the supernal mind-influencing effects. They've just managed to throw off one of the nastier ones.

>>43962050
They are just immune to Quiescence, because the Abyss doesn't have enough influence over their souls to inflict it.

>>43962058
I mean more like Lunacy.

>>43962107
Nope. The only power that doesn't bite on them is the Lie, as they've thrown that one off.

Being a Sleepwalker sucks.

>>43960595

Who said it was a bad thing?

>>43962118
>Being a Sleepwalker sucks.
Getting turned into a Grigori is worse.

>>43962153
Of course. Lots of things are worse than being a sleepwalker, that doesn't make being a sleepwalker fun.

>>43962042
You still go crazy if you just fail the breaking point the normal way, no dramatic failure. You're still losing Integrity. That's going crazy.

>>43961988
>>Pretty much any Hunter tactic to take notes, record what's happening, or prod at Quiescence because you think a mage is nearby will put you on a one-way train to Crazytown, Paranoia. population: you.

Does this include just reading what you've written in a journal, assuming you remember something completely mundane? No prodding the memory or questioning what you've written, just re-reading what you wrote about the mundane memory the Quiescence replaced the supernal event with?

>>43960595
Same reason cybernetics eat your soul in cyberpunk.

>>43962202

Actually, if recalling the false memories - even if they've been written down and are not being prodded at - causes Quiescence to pop, that makes writing down journals and re-reading them even more useful as a tool.

Have the team do it regularly, if one of the wigs out or just blanks over an entry, insta-clue.

Although this does make Quiescence a lot weaker than I would have expected.

>>43950919
>>43961988

Which is bullshit considering that half their equipment is all about dragging someone out of their Sleeper status kicking and screaming.
>>43962033
>do Minor Templates stack?
What are you even trying to make?

Innocent Stigmatic is cool.

>>43962182
No, low Integrity by itself has nothing to do with how crazy you are.
Low integrity just slightly increases your chances of suffering trauma from stuff you experience.
You can be an insane serial killer at integrity 10, or a healthy and well adjusted social worker at integrity 1.

>>43962274
>What are you even trying to make?
Nothing, I was just posing the question.

It could be worse, it could be a Stigmatic Fetch-Child

Give Hunters a power stat in 2e or bust

>>43962375
If they do that'll fuck hunters up.
Normal human hunters in 2e or bust.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yeRlWd9YOQ
Which splat fits this? I think the best one would be Hunter.

>>43962386
Only like half the Hunters are regular humans even now.
>>43962375
Sanctity?
>>43962345
>It could be worse, it could be a Stigmatic Fetch-Child
I'd probably rule that they've got too much Arcadia and too little soul in them for the change to "stick"

>>43962422
>Only like half the Hunters are regular humans even now.

The Lucifuge are inhuman yeah, and it's debatable with the Cheiron Group FPD, but the rest are pretty human.
Only, you know, fighting fire with fire.

>>43962435
The Faithful are probably not entirely human either, and Cainite Heresy are probably still at least a hald ghouls even in moder nights.

>>43962477
The Faithful? From which book? Hunter has a bit too many sub-groups for me to remember them all.

>>43962270
>Although this does make Quiescence a lot weaker than I would have expected.

Explain.

How bad an idea would Demon: The Descent -- Colonial Times be? Fun? Or just insufferable steampunk wank?
>>43962485
Faithful of Shulpae are people who can diablerize not only Kindred but other splats as well.

This makes me wonder whether an Ascending One with dots in Elixir always counts as a Sleepwalker, only when under the effect of an Elixir or never (unless he has the Sleepwalker Merit).

Heirs to hell was a neat book. Only question I have is, would a Master Mage be capable of finding out anything weird about a demon child? Covers are just that while the "real" Demon is capital e Elsewhere, but their kids ARE whatever they are 100%.

>>43962543
Dots in Elixir mean you have access to the inner mysteries of their order so ya sleepwalker.

Same with Illuminated Brotherhood members, which by the way I'd like to become a true Fraternity similar to Maiden's Blood rather than some weird mix of Les Mysteres and Network Zero.

>>43962569
Does Elixir mean you have a store of those potions, or that you can make them? Therein lies the difference.

>>43962574
>Does Elixir mean you have a store of those potions, or that you can make them? Therein lies the difference.
Let me pull up my PDF and curse for the 100th time that I didn't buy the physical books when I still had money.

>>43961836
>Not all of them
SUPPOSED to, Anon

>>43962485
Faithful of Shulpae eat Mummies (and other things). They view it as similarly to Communion, and their quote for the Malleus is comparing the two.

>>43962526
>Steampunk wank
>Not fun
It'd be pretty awesome. Aren't we getting Constantinople soon? I want to know what the Gears look like then.

>>43962552
A Cover exists when the Demon isn't in it. That person ceases to exist, but their bank statements, house, and family still exist.

>>43962574
>>43962599
2e's ruling is that all Elixirs are one shots, but each story you get a number of dots of Elixir equal to Status+Elixir Endowment.

>>43962490

If you have a team taking notes and routinely checking their journal and one of them starts going bonkers from reading it - boom, instant Mage appraisal.

Plus it makes Quiescence seem like more of a stop gap than a permanent fix. It hasn't actually replaced the memories - it's just glossed over them. So remembering even the falsified memories makes you go all wibbly all over again.

Sounds like the work of a shoddy contractor.

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Anyone ever used Woundgate from Mirrors?

I'm thinking of tweaking it for a sort of post-apocalyptic fantasy WoD game where people from the real world end up in a world made up of the shattered remnants of all the various resets the WoD has experienced.

I want to do that kind of game, but I don't really have much in the way of an idea for what the players could be doing getting sucked into a fantasy realm, other than trying to find a way home.

>>43963250
Quiescence doesn't exist to protect mages, the Abyss really doesn't care if Hunters can work around it.
So less a shoddy contractor than a actively hostile one.

>>43963280

I thought Quiescence existed to preserve The Lie? It just seems that since Quiescence memories can self propagate and cause further Quiescence from having someone question the memory in the first place, it might be a counter intuitive process.

Though, to be fair, destroying the minds of everyone who sees something supernal would be a brutally efficient way to protect The Lie. In a sort of 'Wayward Pines' manner.

>>43962422

Nah, Conviction. Let's just dump a lot of the Mortal hacks from Mirrors on Hunters, so they get cool advantages and feel more like a splat while still keeping their mortality.

>>43963341
The Exarchs want to protect the Lie, but Quiescence comes from the Abyss influencing a Sleeper's soul. And the Abyss don't care.
In fact, DaveB spoiled that Abyssal creatures get healed by Dissonance and have lots of abilities that dish out Wisdom/integrity damage. Anything that makes mortals suffer more breaking points is gonna be A-OK in the eyes of an Abyssal creature.

>>43963362
I'd rather Hunters get a sort of half-Powerstat, like something that only goes from 1-5 and comes with an energy stat separate from Willpower, but other than that doesn't really work much like a real Power Stat.

They start with 1 dot of Conviction and can spend one point of temporary Conviction to use Conviction to resist a supernatural effect or something, or can spend a point of Conviction like Willpower. Then you'd have some merits that revolve around Conviction, like using a point to Bless a weapon for a scene, or allowing you to spend Conviction and Willpower in the same turn.

I like the idea of Hunters being mortal, but still stronger than regular Mortals. Not Supernatural, but able to tap into something normal mortals can't. I mean, I already think most of the Hunter template as it exists now might as well be a Mortals thing--or even a generic thing--with anyone being able to use Tactics and Profession and risking Willpower. A sort of "mouse backed into the corner" trait would be good for them.

>>43963459
Basically, something that makes it slightly more useful than a merit, but isn't a major loss if you switch Templates.

>>43963487
>>43963459
>>43963362
You're basically asking to retroclone Imbued Edges from Reckoning.
>Bless a weapon
...and making them like True Faith merit. I'm fully okay with this. You can argue all day over the advantages of cWoD vs nWoD, but fact is that Hunters - rather than being a thematic mess like Changelings or unabashed propaganda like Werewolf - simply got fucked over HARD by being way weaker than they needed to be, despite having extremely cool thematics.

>>43960473
Uh, what's the source on that image/do you have it without text?

>>43963622
>Uh, what's the source on that image/do you have it without text?
Search it.

>>43963609
That is the point I have FOR playing hunter. You have to gang up, be smart, use tools, and be ready to sacrifice anything... or you die. Horribly.

>>43963459
>I'd rather Hunters get a sort of half-Powerstat, like something that only goes from 1-5 and comes with an energy stat separate from Willpower

I'd rather we give them something like "exposure" that allows them to shrug memory altering effects with willpower expenditure (if they succeed the breaking point) once they've encountered it enough times.

Say a guy's family was killed by a pack of werewolves and he was blasted with full on lunacy. He becomes a hunter because the details just don't add up and he gains a small resistance to lunacy because the entirety of his resolve is dedicated to fighting it.

>>43963683
Oh, of course, it's just that crunch didn't match fluff and even some Union schmuck is probably better equipped towards handling a threat than the splat that was meant to be the cWoD equivalent to Solars.

>>43963609

Maybe not some of the outright glowy powers of the Imbued, but the ability to get really good at things when shit goes down sounds fair, if we're going by the "Each super loosely represents a different Attribute" theory of organization.

>>43963622
What >>43963640 said. But it's from the Monday Meeting Notes like two weeks ago.
http://theonyxpath.com/eddy-remains-not-dead-for-thanksgiving-monday-meeting-notes/
I would link the artist's blog, but it's blagsplat.

>>43963609
Nah, nothing on the level of the Edges as only a Merit. At least, that's not what I was talking about. I mean, Edges were things like "deal Aggravated to anything in your way" or "shoot holy lasers" or "use telepathy". I'm talking just a bit of extra oomph to represent someone who's able to go beyond. Sort of like the way that some of the Templates in Hurt Locker previews work, like having points of "Memory" that they can spend. I just think it should be slightly worth more than a Merit dot. But then again, I think that Endowments should cost 2xp per dot instead of just straight up be Merits. I feel like there should be both a mechanical and thematic difference. Especially since Merits are rarely "stuff you own" while Endowments often are.

Which is actually one reason I prefer the 2e changes where some Endowment dots are not what you have but what you can get. Like the one I mentioned above, with Elixirs being one shot items, but you get Status+Elixir dots worth each chapter (or at least when you can make more).

So for Conviction Merits, I'm thinking nothing way better than what exists, and nothing on the level of a supernatural effect (so no shooting glowy spears of light, like Smite). Something like turning a weapon Blessed for a scene isn't unreasonable, since mortal characters can already Bless weapons, provided their Integrity is high enough. This would just let you do it at any Integrity level by channeling your humanity. Alternately, the effects of something similar to Truth Faith, albeit at the cost of spending a point of resource and only temporarily. I also like the idea of some "humanness" power stat adding to Abjuration, but that's because I think Abjuration should be used more.

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So in the 2E ruleset, the (overpriced) merit Giant has the description, "Size 6 and gains +1 Health". Presumably this means that the +1 health is due to the increased size? Or does this mean that it's +1 size (in which case you get +1 health) /and/ then you get +1 health?

For the opposite small-framed the size is 4 and it's later mentioned that this causes a reduction in health, so I would assume that the increase in health in Giant is due to the increase in size. Could be a little bit clearer.

>>43964094
Why does it even matter?

>>43964094
That is my assumption as well.

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>>43964094
Pretty sure it's just one point more of Health. What's so overpriced about it? 4xp to be oversized isn't too bad. Nowhere near as bad as in 1e.

Then again, there are certain drawbacks to being Size 6, and WoD doesn't really have nearly as many rules for different sizes as it could (especially considering the presence of larger monsters), and it's the same cost as a dot of Stamina, which would also give you that extra health level.

>>43964207
Some people wanna be big without having to pay through the nose from their relatively small pool of merit dots, I'd wager. I know my first WoD character I wanted to play Harry Dresden as a necromancer, so I was a Moros with Giant and Stamina 4, though I had XP to spend at character creation.

Both Giant and Small Framed should probably only be 1xp, since they have heavy social drawbacks.

>>43962202
>Does this include just reading what you've written in a journal, assuming you remember something completely mundane? No prodding the memory or questioning what you've written, just re-reading what you wrote about the mundane memory the Quiescence replaced the supernal event with?

Per Dave,

"Pretty much any Hunter tactic to take notes, record what's happening, or prod at Quiescence because you think a mage is nearby will put you on a one-way train to Crazytown, Paranoia. population: you."

Reading a journal about a supernal event you witnessed, regardless of how you may have later rationalized or described it, will recall the supernal event and trigger Quiescence,

>>43964244
It costs 3 xp, not 4.

And honestly, they are mechanical drawbacks a lot more than social ones. You might not fit into a tunnel or into the back of a packed car. But being big means you're more intimidating, more imposing, which is something most people who play a Giant character want. Might be more memorable, but that's hardly a "heavy social drawback." And 1 xp for an extra HP would be a ridiculous price. Literally, absurd.

And yeah, we all want to play a beautiful person without having to get Striking Looks, or an Escape Artist without Double Jointed, but that's what merits are for. That's the whole point of them.

>>43964207
Because math. I'm the sort of terrible person that skips chapter I and II in most books to start looking at mechanics

>>43964244
It's as you say; it's the same cost as a dot of Stamina while also having potentially obvious narrative drawbacks. And it's quite prohibitively expensive to use your small pool of merit dots at character creation, especially for supernaturals.

>>43961364
Mages are 'just human' until high Gnosis levels (6+) then not so much.

>>43962375
It's still early. There's enough justification in the fluff for all hunters to automatically be Sleepwalkers.

But just having BP after BP when investigating a Mage is one thing, the other is that they can kill you with a faintly expressed desire.

>>43961364
>there is nothing natural about Mages
>being this Blue Pill
NICE TRY, SEER SPY!

>>43962552
Covers are pretty good at what they do. I'd say active analysis with a good number of dots (like 3+) in space to even notice something is off.

>>43964587
Banishers, you're thinking of.

>>43964413
>it's the same cost as a dot of Stamina

Just want to reiterate that this is not true. I don't know why this is being repeated. It's not the same as a dot of Stamina, it's 1xp less, and there are obvious narrative benefits as well as drawbacks.

Also, I believe it gives you a +1 to speed as well. At least, in the old books Speed was Strength + Dex + Size. They may have defaulted it to +5 instead in 2e.

>>43964621
>3+ dots in Space to notice something
That's not how Mage works (at least, not under the rules system Demon also uses). Unveilings are 1 dot. Always.

>>43964657
In 1e it was Strength+Dex+Species factor, not Size. Which is why, say, cats aren't slow as fuck despite being like Size 2.

[NWoD] Does anybody know if Animals have souls? I've looked on Book of the Dead and Astral Realms and haven't got a clue.

DaveB, if you're around, could you tell us this one?

>>43964657
mages also have to use more magic to effect giants

>>43964632
>>43964587
While we are on the subject of Mage antagonists, I'll say this a bout the Mad Scelesti
>"Abyssal Tulpas, not even fookin once."

>>43964621
>Covers are pretty good at what they do. I'd say active analysis with a good number of dots (like 3+) in space to even notice something is off.
I'm currently building an NPC couple (I posted about it before I think). The girl uses Fate to 'lock onto' the minor probability distortions her boyfriend/girlfriend (kind of confusing with an Unchained) creates, though she suspects it only works because the Demon's Primum tends to be fairly high.

>>43964683
I know that was the intent, but I remembered the character sheets saying Size. Just checked though and it looks like I was wrong.

>>43964710
>[NWoD] Does anybody know if Animals have souls?

I'm not sure, but Dave has mentioned that animals do not have sympathetic/true names. That may be an indicator that animals do not have souls, at least anything comparable to humans.

>>43964738
Nope, they just happened to both be 5 (for adult humans). The only thing on the character sheet that said Size was Health, IIRC.

>>43964759
>>43964710
animal spirits are a thing, and animals if tortured can create a negative spiritual environment. So I'd say yes, but not on par with self aware beings.

>>43964710
Animals don't have souls. They have spirits, same as anything else that's not a human (or a previously-human, like a Changeling, or a will-be human, like a Promethean).

>>43964849
Changelings have souls.

>>43964849
>>43964759
>>43964710
reminder that all sorts of organisms are sentient, but not all have sapience.

But do keep in mind that if it fits your story, there's nothing wrong with going Lawnmower Man and feature an animal that bucks the standard and develops or exhibits an uncanny intelligence, which might play into an origin where it was augmented or enhanced supernaturally, or was never an animal to begin with. Not having souls as a standard makes it fun to players and storytellers to find a way to justify them having one for a specific story.

>>43964908
As do Prometheans, that's his point

>>43964908
That's what I said. Changelings get to have souls because they used to be humans.

>>43964911
"Having a soul" is not remotely required to be sapient. High-rank Spirits are sapient. Ghosts beyond Rank 0 (or is it Rank 1) are sapient. Loads of Astral beings are sapient (although they live IN souls, so that might not count).

Your Soul is your Humanity Membership Card.

>>43964919
Prometheans don't have souls, thats the entire point of being Promethean.

Changelings have souls, and not spirits.

So in 2e Vampire and Werewolf starting supernaturals get 10 merit points (instead of 7 in 1e) and increasing supernatural advantage costs 5 merit (instead of 3 in 1e). Presumably this will be the case for Mages as well.

How about for Hunters? Should they start with 10 merit or stay at 7 forever?

>>43964953
Prometheans have almost-souls that will be souls if they win.

Animals don't. Don't have souls, never will have souls, don't need souls.

>>43964710
Yes I am.

No, they don't.

>>43960473

Hey, maybe you guys can help me pick out which character I'd want to play the next time I play Hunter. (I even managed to give them different virtues and vices from each other.)

>black chick with a fro who's a "cat burglar with a cause". Really stealthy type.
>really attractive actress seemingly jinxed into bad luck. Recruited after she's targeted by a group of cultists and agrees to be bait. One of her ancestors was a witch.
>Teenage scene girl whose home is in rural Montana. The most computer savvy of her family and proficient with a hunting rifle. Likes to frequent 4chan.
>Mild-mannered Christian preschool teacher who discovered the supernatural by defending her napping students with an iron cross from a minor fairy.
>Amish girl who's been kicked out of her commune due to attracting the weird, but still keeps in touch with her uncle the preacher who's prepped her for the outside world.
>30-40ish female Juggalo whose husband cheated on her with "that bitch", who graphically killed him in a manner unexplainable by the cops. She roams the country in a van in search of the killer anyways. She's obsessed with Peanuts, and her fondest wish is to be a sweet little old granny.

>>43964955
We don't know yet.

Considering how many Hunter powers are Merit based, I'd say they'll probably get 10, though.

5 merit dots for more Gnosis is confirmed for Mage, yes. Dave has also said that doing this is a bad idea that will leave your character fairly crippled (to the point where he almost didn't even have it as an option), but we don't know what sort of Merits Mages who pump Gnosis at chargen will be missing out on yet.

>>43964970

a thousand thanks, kind sir =D

>>43964911
the cat from Coraline is a good example; it's never explained why it can talk or walk between worlds, and the cat itself downplays this as normal. Other cats are never present in the environment to confirm or deny. It pretends not to have special abilities or be anything other than normal around normies. It fights in a feeble way only to distract, and never takes focus. The main antagonist is seemingly capable of killing it with ease, if only it could ever catch it.

>>43964993
>>30-40ish female Juggalo whose husband cheated on her with "that bitch", who graphically killed him in a manner unexplainable by the cops. She roams the country in a van in search of the killer anyways. She's obsessed with Peanuts, and her fondest wish is to be a sweet little old granny.
This one sounds like the one you'd have the easiest time role playing

>>43964951
it's the other way around, usually sapience is a prerequisite to having a soul. But not always, in the case of birth defects and the retarded. Animals can't have souls, and you can't make a special case for them having souls unless they have a higher functioning mind first.

>>43963250

I like how "Slowly loses your sanity" is weak to you, and how letting one of your team-mates go mad is an easy method to appraise a situation rather than something horrendous.

>>43965104
>alright guys, Scout's gone crazy, you know what this means
>that's right, we've narrowed it down. it's either a werewolf or a mage or a beast

>>43965155
I didn't ask for a/s/l, if you want a freebie go to /soc/

>>43964953
>>43964908

Changelings have damaged souls that were ripped apart from the thorns of Arcadia and the Hedge.

Metaphysically, they seem similar to the implied state of vampire souls.

Do werewolves have souls?

They certainly have something. Notably, when dreaming, werewolves sometimes enter the Anima Mundi, the world soul, but not the Temenos, the realm of the collective human soul.

>>43965184
>Do werewolves have souls?
The answer is yes.

>>43965184
>Do werewolves have souls?
Yes, but completely inhuman ones, as they are semi-spirit beings.

>>43965184
>Do werewolves have souls?
Thats where their renown is

>>43965199

Werewolf souls are certainly different from human souls.

If Dave's still around, I'm curious if 2e mages can remove or affect a werewolf "soul," and if so, what Arcana are now required?

>>43965184

Something worth mentioning is that Mages can't affect any of them with soul magic. Whether Changelings have souls is explicitly a major question for their splat.

On the topic of animal souls, I seem to recall one of the plothooks for the Wellspring in the Astral was the notion of an animal Awakening; the first of its kind to develop intelligence and connection to the Supernal.

"Gorilla wizard" deserves to be a thing, is all I'm saying. Or maybe Orangutan oracle.

>>43965184
oWoD werewolves had the best souls. If they got strong enough in life and were remembered for their deeds, they'd live on as Ancestors and their descendants could channel them.for their skills and knowledge, on top of being able to reincarnate or ascend into Spirithood, ON TOP OF potentially having a copy of themselves in the Legendary Realm to replay important battles and events in the Umbra for all time.

>>43965184
>Do werewolves have souls?
The answer is either "No", or "half of one".

I lean toward "No" due to "Werewolves were never human in the first place" being canon. Don't have souls, don't need souls.

>>43965236
>"Gorilla wizard" deserves to be a thing, is all I'm saying. Or maybe Orangutan oracle.

I think Dave's saving them for the much anticipated Deviant.

However, I have no doubt we'll see something similar once OPP releases the new Adventure!

>>43965237
Yeah they're called ancestral spirits in Forsaken and they can become totems.

>>43965264
Although they are more representations of the person they are a spirit of, rather than that person.

>>43964713
>mages also have to use more magic to effect giants
This deserves to be repeated, and maybe clarification from Dave.
In 2e you need extra Spell Factors to affect targets over size 6, so the Giant merit suddenly becomes one of the better Merits both for Mages and those going against them. A flat dicepenalty on all spells used against you thanks to a Merit seems pretty powerful.

Someone trying to use a direct damage spell on you will have to both increase their potency, thanks to the extra health level, and eat a dicepenalty thanks to the increased size.

>>43964347
I think he means writing down "a wizard threw a fireball at me". That would be prodding at Quiescence. Recalling that you were firebombed wouldn't.
Although I will say that at this point that Quiescence makes no real sense. Is it a human defense mechanism? Is it the Abyss destroying Magic? Is it the Supernal protecting itself? Why does Quiescence act the way it does other than as a narrative conceit to keep Magic from being seen and known that goes above and beyond the already existing "you forget things that cause Breaking Points"?

>>43964408
>>43964413
I suppose narrative would be a better way to put it instead of "social". And, yes, I realize that sometimes you can't get what you want because of merits, but I still feel that certain things, like a small character or a large character or even an attractive character should be a lot easier to do than they are. I used to just make "Small" characters back when it was an almost meaningless Flaw. Now I have to take a Merit to be short?

>>43964657
Species Factor is not Size, it's just that for humans both is 5. And there really aren't that many benefits to being large. Or penalties, really. Put more accurately, any benefits or penalties for size besides Small's +2 to go unnoticed are entirely optional. I know games are intended to be done through fiat in many ways, but if you've ever played with the kind of ST who prefers RAW, it would be nice if such things were at least suggested.

>>43965199
>>43965184
>>43965233
Werewolves have Spirits, not Souls. They're literally are spirits bound in flesh. Hence their Morality being Breaks towards Spirit and Flesh, and the fact that you need Spirit to affect their Pattern (at least in 1e).

>>43964713
>>43965352
>over size 6
6 is not over 6. It is 6.

>>43965385
>6 is not over 6. It is 6.
spelling mistake. meant 5

>>43965385
>Although I will say that at this point that Quiescence makes no real sense. Is it a human defense mechanism? Is it the Abyss destroying Magic? Is it the Supernal protecting itself? Why does Quiescence act the way it does other than as a narrative conceit to keep Magic from being seen and known that goes above and beyond the already existing "you forget things that cause Breaking Points"?
It's the Abyss inside the Sleeper going "NOPE" and desperately scrambling for whatever bullshit it can think of to deny the Supernal.

>>43965385
>Werewolves have Spirits, not Souls. They're literally are spirits bound in flesh. Hence their Morality being Breaks towards Spirit and Flesh, and the fact that you need Spirit to affect their Pattern (at least in 1e).
They have souls in both, their soul is half spirit. It states that they have souls repeatedly.

>>43964993
>30-40ish female Juggalo whose husband cheated on her with "that bitch", who graphically killed him in a manner unexplainable by the cops. She roams the country in a van in search of the killer anyways. She's obsessed with Peanuts, and her fondest wish is to be a sweet little old granny.
What the fuck?
Also, that is the standout "what the fuck" in a relatively reasonable bunch of characters. I like the first one because I like stealthy kleptos. Pretty sure there's a black Selina Kyle, if you're one of those people who likes having art.
Amish girl and teacher seem like good ones, too, if you want to play up being a moral religious person thrown into the world of sin.
Actress doesn't grab me, but it could be fun if you play up the acting part; playing people who are actors (or more often for what I've played, pathological liars) is always fun, in a meta way. "Bad luck" could also be the Cursed merit, if that's what you were going for.
>Teenage scene girl whose home is in rural Montana. The most computer savvy of her family and proficient with a hunting rifle. Likes to frequent 4chan.
The "likes to frequent 4chan" part is dumb, and would be better served as Network Zero. But I like the mix of "city" stuff in being scene and tech savvy along with more rustically learning how to shoot a rifle to keep coyotes (pronounced kai-oats, obviously) away from the chicken coop.

>>43965439
Why would the Abyss want that in the first place?

>>43965425
Oh, does it, then? Yeah, that actually does mean being a meatmage is good.

>>43965498
>Why would the Abyss want that in the first place?
Who knows? 2e Quiescence's only concern is making things shitty for Mages, not how it affects the Sleepers who actually have to live with it, or making any fucking sense.

>>43965498
>Why would the Abyss want that in the first place?
Because Mages and the Supernal have no place in the real world and the world needs a defense mechanism against them.

>>43965385
In 1e the Giant merit was 7 feet or more. Crucially, they don't specify what height is Giant in 2e, so you can still play a very tall character and argue that you're not a giant.

If you're playing a Giant Kung Fu master and don't have enough dots to max out the Martial Arts merit *and* get the Giant merit, then just drop the Martial Arts merit to 4 - if being a Giant is so so important to the character concept then just get it and stop whining. Otherwise make your guy 6'6" and hey, you've got a tall guy without the mechanical benefits of being a Giant.

And I don't know what you mean easier to do than they are? You can start play with them. What's easier than that?

If I want to be a hardboiled veteran homicide detective nearing retirement, then I should have Professional Training 4 at least, Trained Observer 2, Tolerance for Biology, Status: Police 3, a couple dots in Police Tactics, etc. I'm not going to whine about it should be easier to do because it's part of my character concept. If we're not starting with extra xp then I have to decide what's most important to the character concept, or accept that this character is more experienced than a starter character and adjust the concept. Get Giant if it's important to you. Move on if it's not.

>>43965636
>In 1e the Giant merit was 7 feet or more.
It was 7 feet or taller and 250+ pounds. You could play someone 7 feet tall in 1e without the merit as long as they were a beanpole.

I did that once, while playing Promethean.

So for Style Merits and Experience in 2e:

If a character has 3 dots in a style merit and wishes to purchase the 4th dot with experiences, does it cost 4 experiences or 1?

>>43965385

Remembering the false memory Quiescence left you with doesn't retrigger you. Having the flaws in it pointed out doesn't necessarily do so (although see the standard "what have you forgotten" Breaking Point for Integrity).

"Any *serious* attempt:" if you uncover the truth, the Abyss bites down again.

And you're nearly right. The Breaking Point is the Abyss destroying magic. The memory effects afterwards are a defense mechanism. Otherwise you'd risk integrity every time you thought about it.

Which would make for an interesting Mystery. Some poor bastard who's immune to Quiescence but isn't a Sleepwalker. They'd go screamingly insane in short order.

>>43965698
1 Merit dot = 1 Experience

So raising something from 3 to 4 is 1 Experience. Geebus.

>>43965698
1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9tARhpYZkg
Behold! The perfect Cheiron group Cell.

>>43965704
So all Hunters are either Sleepwalkers or go gibbering insane at the start of their careers.

Hopefully it's easier to become a Sleepwalker-merit Sleepwalker than 1e's "hearing the call of a Watchtower", then.

>>43965828
>or go gibbering insane at the start of their careers.
No, just when dealing with Supernal magicians

>>43964533
I'm not gonna consider anything that uses an alternate to Integrity as 'just human.'

>>43965828
Or they, you know, hunt things that aren't supernal. Like any of the, what, seven other splats, plus all the weird shit that's not a playable splat? Quiescence applies only to supernal magic. Other supernatural things can also cause breaking points, but being a sleepwalker doesn't save you from those either.

>>43965851
well, witnessing supernal magic

>>43965828
This is why DaveB said a while ago that if you want to throw a mage at your Hunters, you shouldn't use Mage. Because if you do, the Hunters will PROBABLY go insane, and will DEFINITELY be unable to remember any of what the Mage has done.

>>43965184
Werewolves have souls. Idigam can use a soul removal power and it works on Werewolves. There souls are basically half human soul have wolf spirit though.

>>43965923
>There souls are basically half human soul have wolf spirit though.
Half spirit of the hunt.

I know not all things are created equal especially in White Wolf products are their some fighting styles that are just more worth taking or some that are just worthless and should be avoided?

>>43965995
Which edition?

>>43965995

in 1e very much yes.

In 2e, not really. There is very little fighting style overlap, as far as concept goes, so unless you literally don't give a shit what kind of character you're playing, there's mostly just one style for each thing you might want to do.

I think the Unarmed Defense style is pretty good. So is Marksmanship and the Light Weapons Style. But honestly they're all pretty decent.

>>43965704

Do you think, in the future, we might get something like guidelines as to how common Sleepwalkers are/what the common causes are/how to make people more amenable to becoming them?

I don't expect hard and fast rules, but maybe something with suggestions saying "This version would likely mean a world with a lot of Sleepwalkers" or "Use this for a world with very few Sleepwalkers", etc.

It'd help with Silver Ladder cults, y'know? And help figure just what the Seers want to prevent instead of kicking daisies and being Pentex 2.0.

>>43965851

Didn't he state that everyone forgets, re: witnessing any magic? It's why the What Have You Forgotten question exists.

>>43966146
Which ones in 1e are just flat out bad, in your opinion?

>>43966190
You rationalize it, you only forget about it with a dramatic failure.

Would a sleeper without a soul still cause Dissonance?

Can a soulless proximus still call on his blessings(spells) ?

>>43965636
>And I don't know what you mean easier to do than they are? You can start play with them. What's easier than that?
It's easier to justify "I learned kung fu" than it is "I grew six inches". Having to spend three of seven points on something relatively minor is a bit annoying.

Your example isn't quite a good comparison because your general size and shape isn't really a matter of "experience". If the game is about being fresh characters who aren't well established, you shouldn't be able to play a veteran homicide detective because that goes against the game's set up. "Being big" however isn't actually something that in real life is a matter of experience.

You can understand this problem, right? It's not a big one, but it is a bit of an annoyance. I know people on the internet think anytime someone complains, it means they absolutely HATE something with all of their being and want to smash it, but sometimes people just go "man, that's a bummer".

>>43966190
>Didn't he state that everyone forgets, re: witnessing any magic? It's why the What Have You Forgotten question exists.

no,
"Other supernatural occurrences don’t provoke the Abyss that obviously, but the Lie still has a subtle effect, predisposing the inhabitants of the World of Darkness to silence, putting the thought of the monsters among them out of mind."
It 'predisposes' them to forget non Supernal magic, but it isn't automatic. They don't forget the way they do Supernal effects

This is gonna sound like a silly question: But would a Elemental made of fabric be a Manikin or a Di-Cang?

I was asking because Goku Uniforms and Multiple Personality Disorder. (Honestly, I can't imagine being turned into a piece of fabric and then being separated into four bits, which were then used to make four totally different garments for members of four completely different courts would be a fun experience.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6oHJYQ3VzQ

>>43965704
Well, what is your take on a Hunter realizing that their memories might be a lie? Not "I know, it was MAGIC", but more a "this has to be magic, that can't be what happened, why do I remember that?"

In other words remembering one thing but feeling that it can't be true. Personally, I like that concept because people don't even need Quiescence to do that. They just need cognitive dissonance.

Or, alternately, what do you feel Hunters should do when confronted by villainous Mages? How should a Hunter prepare to fight a Mage? How would they even know that's what they're up against?
̶W̶e̶'̶r̶e̶ ̶p̶r̶e̶t̶e̶n̶d̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶c̶o̶u̶r̶s̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶"̶u̶s̶e̶ ̶H̶u̶n̶t̶e̶r̶:̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶V̶i̶g̶i̶l̶ ̶w̶h̶e̶n̶ ̶p̶l̶a̶y̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶a̶ ̶H̶u̶n̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶g̶a̶m̶e̶,̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶M̶a̶g̶e̶:̶ ̶T̶h̶e̶ ̶A̶w̶a̶k̶e̶n̶i̶n̶g̶"̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶o̶f̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶t̶a̶b̶l̶e̶.̶

Also, why would they go insane? Do you mean they'd have Breaking Points whenever they remembered, but wouldn't forget? I assumed the Breaking Point was part of the Quiescence. What exactly is the narrative point of Quiescence?

>>43966248
Merits aren't a matter of experience. Being Double Jointed or having an Eidetic Memory (sometimes) or having a 'True Friend' aren't a matter of experience, they're just flavour to your character concept that adds a unique touch - so that your sheet isn't just a name and series of 1-5 ratings.

Remember, none of this is actual real life experience. You didn't actually work to learn Kung Fu. You just chose it as part of your character. Meaning it's just an exceptional detail of your concept in exactly the same way as being a Giant is.

Just be tall then. Like I said, that's fine. It's different from being a Giant.

>>43966281

Really. Huh. I am glad to hear that.

>>43966201
It's less that some of them are bad and more that some of them are so insanely good that they render anyone who doesn't have Fighting Styles irrelevant in a fight.

>>43966281
Interesting. It does help with the fact that I've disliked that everyone forgets anything magic.

Actually if you go that route, then ANY player character in the World of Darkness should be a Sleepwalker. They're the ones who ignore the Lie, and naturally go after any sort of "truth" out there, whether that truth is Supernal or that Vampires are controlling the school board.

>>43966372
>Merits aren't a matter of experience.
Many--if not most--are. Training yourself to be flexible and to remember things are experiences. Having friends is, yes, an experience. Things like knowing kung fu? Also an experience. It's something that your character likely worked towards.

Being big, being small, sometimes being flexible or an eidetic memory (which may not actually be a thing), those are usually parts of your being, not things you've trained at or worked up over time.

>>43966485
Alright, which ones do you think are really good then?

I figured Combat Marksmanship would be pretty good, because it allows burst firing with semi auto guns, faster reloads, and still denies Defense to the enemy when in melee range.

>>43966515
That's my point. They aren't meant to portray experiences or skills, just details. They can, of course, but that's why having to pay for the Giant merit makes sense. If you want the benefit. If you don't, that's fine too. Just be a tall guy.

>>43966248
>It's easier to justify "I learned kung fu" than it is "I grew six inches". Having to spend three of seven points on something relatively minor is a bit annoying.
I'd suggest speaking to your GM and fluffing your character as already being fukhueg. Later you buy the merit and kinda learn to put your size to good use. Similar to buying up Stamina.

I know that's not exactly your point, but I still like to put that idea out there since lots of people tend to forget options like this.

>>43966550
Anything that let's you attack twice. Heavy Sword (Zweihander), Combat Marksmanship, and Two Weapon Fighting. Obviously because you literally just get to attack twice. No cool tricks really compare with that.

Just as good is anything that let's you add a flat number to your damage. Fencing and Sniping are the two that I can remember. If you have 4 Dex then Fencing allows you to add 4 damage to your attacks, which is basically the equivalent of a second attack or better. Costs a willpower, but still a sure way to end any fight. Sniping is even worse when you consider that you can aim for 5 turns then subtract those 5 dice to add 5 to your damage. Basically just a oneshot kill everytime.

>>43966515
>Actually if you go that route, then ANY player character in the World of Darkness should be a Sleepwalker. They're the ones who ignore the Lie, and naturally go after any sort of "truth" out there, whether that truth is Supernal or that Vampires are controlling the school board.
Basically. Unless you're playing a oneshot.

>>43967014
And this is why "Every PC gets the Sleepwalker merit for free," is a valid houserule.

>>43967076
I guess, I just dislike the metaphysical implications of "You only get to be a PC because the Watchtowers subconsciously called you".

>>43967209
You just need to accept the Truth. Then you'll be one of us. One of us. DaveB. DaveB. One of us.

If Quiescence works on Hunters then how do any of them hunt mages to begin with? How are there whole compacts and conspiracies that hunt, kill and even eat mages if they'd never know someone was one because all of their 'magic' is just coincidence or explained by something else?

>>43967292
Witch hunting has never had a stellar track record to begin with.

>>43966823
Isn't Giant "at character creation only"?

>>43967209
Was that even the reasoning in 1e? Weren't Sleepwalkers the group with the HARDEST time Awakening, since they often end up taking for granted the Truth, instead of seeking out an Obsession theirselves?

>>43965704
>Remembering the false memory Quiescence left you with doesn't retrigger you. Having the flaws in it pointed out doesn't necessarily do so (although see the standard "what have you forgotten" Breaking Point for Integrity).
On top of my reasoning that Hunters should be Sleepwalkers by virtue of them not believing the little Lies that the Abyss furthers ("There are no vampires" "that man who fell off the roof didn't become sticks and leaves" "animals can't talk"), wouldn't it be worth it to say that for Hunters the question should be "What CAN'T you forget?", at least until Monica decides on something official.

>>43967292
They find out something's fucky and all the fuckiness seems to come from/have to do with that one guy. Then they kill that one guy. If fuckiness stops, success.

>>43967404
>Isn't Giant "at character creation only"?
Yeah, but 2e finally made it RAW that "chargen only" is dumb and should be taken as a guideline. That's why I say speak to your GM prior to building it that way.

>>43967292
They don't. They hunt witches, which are like hedge mages who don't have contact with the Supernal. Only the Knights of St George and some other conspiracies with sleepwalkers really go after Mages, and they're probably going to be fazed out in 2e

>>43964951
>Your Soul is your Humanity Membership Card.
Which is a pretty big deal since the only beings who 1) Don't have a soul and 2) Don't suffer from either crippling lethargy, complete stasis or terrifying monomania are Unchained.

It seems like you need a soul to be really 'alive' in the sense of being able to change beyond basic conditioning responses.

...I have no idea where I was going with this.

Anyways. What would someone gain from visiting the Ocean of Fragments? Aside from a very elaborate form of suicide, I guess.

>>43967439
>Yeah, but 2e finally made it RAW that "chargen only" is dumb and should be taken as a guideline.
It does not.

>>43967404
>On top of my reasoning that Hunters should be Sleepwalkers by virtue of them not believing the little Lies that the Abyss furthers
I (not the one you were talking to) prefer to imagine it as "MANY Hunters should be Sleepwalkers". Some may be Sleepers who got into all the supernatural bonanza deep enough to not being able to rationalize/forget EVERYTHING.

>>43965498
>Why would the Abyss want that in the first place?
Because the Abyss wants to unmake all things, and people knowing of Magic is one of the only ways to push it back.

>>43967492
Huh. You're right. Weird, I distinctly remember reading something like that and being fucking happy about it.

Enter your Quiescence joke here. I, for one, really am confused.

All this Mage/Hunter shit just gave me an idea for a Slasher/Hunter Sleepwalker that likes to round up Hunters and throw them into the magic meat grinder.

File: alp grandpa.jpg (191KB, 640x468px) Image search: [Google]

191KB, 640x468px

>>43966167
>Do you think, in the future, we might get something like guidelines as to how common Sleepwalkers are/what the common causes are/how to make people more amenable to becoming them?
If the Illuminated Brotherhood and some things in Mage are any indication then a shitload of drugs. If you don't have a psychotic breakdown, spirits might start talking to you.

...actually, old Thyrsus Zoologist professor getting harassed (or so he keeps telling himself) by some Liberal Arts Illuminated Brotherhood member.

The old Mage is understandably disgusted by the pudgy commie faggot blundering around the place, but since most of his Cabal's gotten somewhat out of touch with each other he puts up with him and they eventually end up a pair of rather mismatched bros.

Sorry, I'm a sucker for this like that and got carried away.

>>43967602
>Enter your Quiescence joke here. I, for one, really am confused.
it's simple. We live in the Classic World of Darkness. The New World of Darkness is an attempt by the Technocracy to spread disinformation. The memory weirdness is the consensus.

>>43967812
>We live in the Classic World of Darkness.
Well, shit.

>>43967812
Fug.

Consider the following: The God-Machine is the last thing the Technocracy built in order to Survive Gehenna. The big bang was the starting of its primary power source.

>>43967959
Well then. That explains why no one knows exactly what the fuck it is actually doing, and I'm fairly certain IT doesn't have a cocking clue either.

>>43965704

Can mages remove or affect a werewolf, vampire or changeling "soul," and if so, what Arcana would be required?

>>43967959
Technocracy has made shit that is better than the God Machine. Is it more or less evil? Eh... The Arch-Masters are a bit insane.

>>43968343
Probably just the Death arcana, which allows you to rip souls out for fun. Maybe Spirit and Death for WW.

>>43968343

No they cannot, and it's Death that controls the soul for some reason, despite Prime making a way better candidate.

>>43968343

Yes, mages can do everything

>>43964683
I was under the impression that, for humans at least, species factor and Size were the same.

Like:
>species factor for wolves = 10
>species factor for humans = their Size

>>43967526

The Abyss doesn't want to unmake reality (except when it does). The Abyss is limitless non-reality, which infects reality like a disease; it is The Nothing That Is. As such, how it manifests is really varied.

Some Abyssal intruders try and consume, but others rewrite or even create; more a malicious idea or law of nature than anything else. It makes things more like itself.

A subtle distinction, when the Abyss is ignorance manifested and therefore nothing, but an important one none the less.

>>43968507
Doesn't say it anywhere. Probably they even were earlier in developing and they got later separated, to prevent slow cats and stuff.

>>43968507
No, at least, not in 1e. A human's species factor is always 5, regardless of their size.

>>43968572
No, because a human child's species factor is 3.

>a species factor that reflects her age, physical configuration, Size and other considerations.

>>43968563

Common housecats can outpace Usain Bolt. That's all I could think when watching the Olympics.

I'm not fun at sports bars.

>>43967404
>Was that even the reasoning in 1e? Weren't Sleepwalkers the group with the HARDEST time Awakening, since they often end up taking for granted the Truth, instead of seeking out an Obsession theirselves?
From the corebook:
>There are a few mortals whose souls have stirred just enough to rise above the Quiescence, but not enough to be called Awake. They have not heard the call of a Watchtower, and remain ignorant about magic and the truth behind reality unless it is taught to them. These half-aware mortals are called Sleepwalkers, or sometimes “lucid dreamers.” None can say just what causes some souls to walk in their Sleep, although mages prize such individuals. Willworkers often recruit them as assistants and acolytes, people who can work within the Sleeping world without attracting the attention of entities who are drawn to the Awakened. Some mages even try to create families with Sleepwalkers, in hopes that the odds of their progeny Awakening are higher than most. It is rumored that mystical orders like the Guardians of the Veil conduct breeding programs to encourage magical bloodlines and dynasties of the Awakened.
It seems I missed a fairly important "not" before "heard the call of the Watchtowers", although this segment does also imply that "Sleepwalkers are less likely to Awaken" is the OPPOSITE of canon, or at least 1e canon.

>>43968343
Death for Vampires, Fate for Changelings, and Spirit for Werewolves.

However the proficiency required is the purview of Archmastery with the Practice of Entities.

>>43968507
>>43968619
>No, because a human child's species factor is 3.

>a species factor that reflects her age, physical configuration, Size and other considerations.

THAT'S what I was thinking of!

>>43968623
There isn't a lot common housecats can't do. And why the fuck would anybody go to a sports bar? Even if you love watching sports.

>>43968619
Hm. You're right, I was too hasty. However, Size and Species Factor are not intrinsically linked, since a dog is faster than a human adult, yet it has a speed of 4 (and a species factor of 7).

So no, Species Factor and Size aren't the same thing. An adult human always has a Species Factor of 5 (unless you want to rule it otherwise, such as if they had Giant).

>>43968680
If a girl wants some she's gotta put it out there

>>43968709
Point. Even if it's a rather… broad approach.

>>43968343
>>43968378
>>43968415
It's Spirit. This was a thing in 1e. You need Spirit to manipulate a Werewolf's pattern.

Death doesn't "control" the soul, all of the Subtle Arcana are capable of perceiving and manipulating the Soul. Death just happens to be what you need to sever it.

>>43968657
You don't need Fate to manipulate a changeling's pattern.

>>43968680
Because many people enjoy sports as a communal thing, and also you don't have to make your own food. You hang out with friends eating 20$ wings and a 7$ beer and don't have to make food or clean up, and their TV is huge.

>>43968755
>You don't need Fate to manipulate a changeling's pattern.
Their Soul is in tatters, but most of their power comes from their connection to the Wyrd, which seems to be connected to Fate.

So in this case repairing their soul through the Fate aspect of the soul is the best choice.

>>43968680
>There isn't a lot common housecats can't do.

I'm reminded of that screencap where the guy talks about a WoD game where a PC broke into a house and almost got killed by a housecat.

>>43968699
That's why I specified "for humans". We're not built for high land speeds, so our species factor scales with our Size at a roughly 1-1 ratio. For something like a cheetah, +1 Size would boost their species factor by WAY more than 1.

>>43968709
>If a girl wants some she's gotta put it out there
>>43968746
>Even if it's a rather… broad approach.
>broad approach
>broad
>girl
>broad
Please tell me that was intentional.

>>43968810
>"for humans"
It might, but I don't see a specific rule that would support it. I could see a storyteller ruling it either way, though I believe the two are not tied.

Just because you're really big doesn't mean you're necessarily fast, after all. I'm of the mind that that it's more of a coincidence (or a representation of average-ness) that a Human's default size and species factor are both 5.

>>43968755
>Because many people enjoy sports as a communal thing, and also you don't have to make your own food. You hang out with friends eating 20$ wings and a 7$ beer and don't have to make food or clean up, and their TV is huge.
Wouldn't it be easier to let everyone contribute a bit and meet with friends at one of your homes?
But yeah, actually I was in a bickering mood, sorry for nitpicking. But holy shit, is beer so expensive where you live? It's almost as bad as Scandinavia.

>>43968810
>Please tell me that was intentional.
Sorry, English's not my first language. I hope that's not a fat joke?

>>43968755

Dave's said that Death has exclusive control over soul manipulation in 2e. Given that it was the arcanum of extracting, trapping, and examining their wounds, Death seems like king of it.

Also, Mages can't affect the souls of the other major splats. It's one of the big reasons they're assumed not to have souls (or to have really wonked ones).

>>43968880
Not really fat. It's more in line with "slut" than "fat", though it's usually just used as a casual way of referring to a woman.

>>43968883
>Also, Mages can't affect the souls of the other major splats. It's one of the big reasons they're assumed not to have souls (or to have really wonked ones).
Citation needed, seems unlikely.

>>43968883
>Dave's said that Death has exclusive control over soul manipulation in 2e.
I honestly don't mind this at all. Death needed more toys than "kill people/stuff, fuck with ghosts, fuck with shadows".

>>43968880
>But holy shit, is beer so expensive where you live? It's almost as bad as Scandinavia.
Beer in bars is always hideously marked up. I doubt getting a beer from wherever you just straight-up buy beer from costs $7 a beer.

>>43968755
> You hang out with friends eating 20$ wings and a 7$ beer and don't have to make food or clean up, and their TV is huge.
EEeeeeeh. Not worth eating terribad food OR putting up with idiots who aren't my friends making a fuss in four feet away. Even from a social perspective it's inferior.

>>43968950
Holy shit. I'm quite surely not paying an establishment a second visit if their beer is more than 4€ (for 0.3 litre), and I consider that to be way too expensive. My favourite bar gives me half a litre for 3.60.

>>43968929
Ah, thank you. Well, still not something I'd wanted to say, even if admittedly a good unintended pun.

>>43968883
>Also, Mages can't affect the souls of the other major splats.
Wait what. For a Sin-Eater you'd just need Spirit and Death, for a Mummy it's probably just Death and the cojones to mess with the Judges, Changelings probably need Death and something else.

>>43968797
Pretty sure that doesn't matter, and it's just the natural player instinct to make things into patterns.

>>43968810
>our species factor scales with our Size at a roughly 1-1 ratio
It doesn't. You're also seeing a pattern that isn't there. Humans are Species Factor 5 even if they're Size 6. The Species Factor is 5. It's just coincidental that our Size is also 5.

>>43968883
>It's one of the big reasons they're assumed not to have souls (or to have really wonked ones).
No one has ever said that. Also, the Soul is all of the Subtle Arcana.

>>43968936
Death was pretty awesome. It's just that most of it's spells that affected other people required you to bear hug them, and 1e rules for grappling were ass. I was satisfied with my detective vision and shadow puppets, especially when I kept giving them enough Durability and Strength to be helpful.

>>43968929
>>43968880
"Broad" is old fashioned slang for a woman. Like "dame".

>>43969031
I'm poor, but Buffalo Wild Wings is pretty great. I'd go there with my friends if I wasn't poor. Although I care more for trivia than sportsball.

>>43969076
Worth repeating that any fucking with Supernatural templates is the purview of Archmastery.

Which is why most Mages would think it impossible.

>>43968883
From what I remember manipulating the pattern of another Supernatural entity required Archmastery in 1e.

>>43964671
A single success on a Spoof roll still makes the Demon read as nothing but a regular human.

>>43969103
"Take something's soul out" isn't fucking with supernatural templates for Changelings or Mummies or Sin-Eaters any more than it is for Mages, and they can do it to Mages.

>>43969103
That's fucking with the template, just fucking with their soul is no different from blasting them with burning hands or chain lightning.

>>43969087
>Death was pretty awesome. It's just that most of it's spells that affected other people required you to bear hug them, and 1e rules for grappling were ass.
Suppress Other's Life (or, as it was known in my group, "coma-punching) was pretty sweet, yeah.

>>43969126
Doesn't even allow a Clash of Wills?

>>43969076
>For a Sin-Eater you'd just need Spirit and Death, for a Mummy it's probably just Death and the cojones to mess with the Judges, Changelings probably need Death and something else

In Awakening, particularly 2e, spells that require conjugal Arcana are greatly disfavored (with the apparent exception of some transmutation effects), and Death in 2e is now supposed to solely control the purview of souls.

>>43969126
Under 2e rules, it would probably come down to a Clash of Wills roll.

Somebody posted an interesting theory awhile ago about the Watchtower of the Golden Key being part of, if not the actual, God machine.

Does anybody have a screenshot or remember the details?

>>43968866
>>43969087
I think you might be right, I'm just fleshing out why I thought that:

Bigger = longer stride = faster
Smaller = shorter stride = slower

Since a human child has a factor of 3 but an adult has a factor of 5, that +2 has to come from things that change as we grow older, the most obvious of which is Size. (Which suspiciously correlates with the species factor)

>>43969043
It was more of an early-to-mid-1900's thing. I don't think I've ever actually heard someone say it in real life, outside of references.

>>43969043
and some of the other places I somewhat frequently visit want 2€ for a o.5 litre bottle, but you have to need specific tastes to know them

>>43969087
>"Broad" is old fashioned slang for a woman. Like "dame".
In that case I could even pretend to having intended taht pun… Well.

And to contribute something useful:
>>43969160
>>43969186
Demons have some perfect-like abilities. Successful Spoofing was one of them iirc. Perfect Lying IS one of them, so there's the precedence for no Clash of Wills. Demons already are 2e.

>>43969237
It's more common in urban areas than the Bible Belt.

Is there any particular Path or Legacy that tries the find out about where reality comes from? Or are they all just "Well gee magic and god-like beings capable of erasing the very timeline exist... so I guess Sleeper physics are pretty legit"?

>>43969237
I think it's less to do with size and more to do with muscle development and the like.

As another example, the Dwarf flaw doesn't specifically say it affects your speed. It does specifically say you get less health.

>>43969256
>Demons already are 2e.
Did the "clash of wills" concept EXIST when Demon was written? I thought Vampire 2e introduced it.

>>43969229
>Somebody posted an interesting theory awhile ago about the Watchtower of the Golden Key being part of, if not the actual, God machine.

They were probably referring to the nugget about gears and such in the Aether in the Obrimos entry in Tome of the Watchtowers. It was obviously a reference to the God Machine from the 1e corebook before WW expanded on the idea.

>>43969229
That was just a singular post suggesting that, with a possibility of it being at least partly just talking whatever. But the idea is nice, even if it will never be confirmed, just like with Arcadia

>>43969292
Demon introduced it. I'll even look for a reference, wait a bit.

>>43968415
>despite Prime making a way better candidate.
Prime has never had a single spell that does anything to souls. 1e soulfuckery was mostly Death, and a little bit of Spirit. Death mostly did soul stuff that was bad juju, while Spirit did things like "give a soulless person their soul back".

>>43969229
Mortal Remains suggests it was a makeshift ladder (like from mtaw) made by Aegis Kai Doru

>>43969308
>>43969229
That's interesting. It could mean that Angels are summoned from the Supernal and Infrastructure can Mitigate Paradox.

>>43969327
He suggested Prime because souls have nothing to do with death beyond leaving the body when you die, and seem more in tune with Prime as they are a special and magical part of the universe

>>43969103
>>43969123
Anything can be Soulless. You can also manipulate someone's Pattern (though some supernaturals require certain things). You just can't change how their Template works without Archmastery.

>>43964621
Covers are perfect. That's literally one of their powers. >>43969126 has it right.
>>43969160
>>43969186
>>43969292
It is the Clash of Wills. Demon is made with 2e in mind. Clash of Wills is from 1e. Auspex vs Obfuscate has always been a Clash of Wills.

>>43969156
Since it would have been impossible to get off with normal 1e grappling rules, I took Aikido 3. Every problem was solved with a hug and a nap.

>>43969162
>>43968883
I'm going to go with >>43968934 because the Soul is made up of the Subtle Arcana.
http://forums.whitewolfarchive.com/default388d-3.html?g=posts&m=1672533#post1672533
>A human soul responds to magic of the five subtle Arcana, and can be used as a way to manipulate or suborn the associated patterns in a person. So, you can steal someone's Fate using their soul, or stave off your own death by eating their life through it. Magic can poke at the vast energies bound up inside, but most dedicated soul-botherers do so with Attainments - modifying their own souls to cannibalise the parts they're interested in in others.
It's worth noting that this is from 2013, but it's also Dave's post, and he's in charge.

>>43969229
They were dumb and wrong.

>>43969258
That would explain it, then.

>>43969126
>>43969160
>>43969186
>>43969256
A lot of the Demon stuff seems to have been written in a "vacuum", making it hard to figure out cross-splat interaction.

>>43969292
Vampire 2E explained it more thoroughly, but CoW is part of the GMC/2E update.

>>43969331
>AKD
>Competent
>competent enough to impinge on Mage
I'd say the only ones more incompetent than AKD are Network Zero since every splat assumes that they've never won anything ever.

>>43969327
>Prime has never had a single spell that does anything to souls
Armor of the Soul?

>>43969398
That's less "doing something TO a soul" and more "preventing stuff from getting done to your soul", but I guess. Personally I'd consider it in the same line of "no, fuck you and your superpowers" spells as counterspell prime and supernal dispellation than an indication that Prime has purview over souls.

>>43969377
>A lot of the Demon stuff seems to have been written in a "vacuum", making it hard to figure out cross-splat interaction.
Good old Matt "Game Balance Doesn't Exist" McFarland.

Demons have a ton of "just roll your dicepool, no penalties, no contesting, get a single success to do your thing" powers.

>>43969272
Sleeper science is a Lie like everything else, but also like everything else it's still a reflection of the deeper truth.

To answer the actual question, I... can't think of any that make that specifically their explicit goal, though some go in a related direction, like the Daksha with their precursor/future master race or the Echo Walkers that look for the Ones Before.

>>43969480
It's no different from Brookshaw's balance doesn't matter line.

>>43969493
>Sleeper science is a Lie like everything else
>Sleeper science
>a Lie
>everything else
>a Lie
Methinks you've misunderstood what the Lie is. Protip: it's not "All of material reality".

>>43968415
>>43969327
>>43969366
The Soul goes from Death through the Pentacle of the Watchtowers and is purified until it goes through Prime and is returned to the world. In the current, Fallen World, Souls bounce off the Abyss (or are kept out of Stygia by the Exarch of Death) and reincarnate unpurified.

>>43969331
It suggests a lot of things.

>>43969341
Angels from Aether are not Angels of the God-Machine.
No more than Demons from Pandaemonium are Demons of the Inferno.

>>43969377
>>43969480
Demon has quite a bit of crossover stuff. Most of it saying "this overrides everything", which, yeah, that kind of is put in perspective with Beast...

>Demons have a ton of "just roll your dicepool, no penalties, no contesting, get a single success to do your thing" powers.
That's not really a problem. There's even a sidebar that says if you feel something should be resisted add resistance, but that you don't really need to bother rolling to use your TELL ME EVERYTHING power on the cute waitress who brought you coffee.

>>43969508
Sure, but he at least considers the idea that splats might interact with other splats. He just unashamedly gives Mage supremacy when he's writing Mage books, like with the whole "all Hunters must be Sleepwalkers, because muh themes" thing.

>>43969518
>The Soul goes from Death through the Pentacle of the Watchtowers and is purified until it goes through Prime and is returned to the world. In the current, Fallen World, Souls bounce off the Abyss (or are kept out of Stygia by the Exarch of Death) and reincarnate unpurified.
That sounds really stupid.

>>43969512
Good thing that's not what I said.

>>43969508
Pretty sure that was Matt.

I may be wrong, but while Dave certainly does seem to default to Mage cosmology being what all of the WoD hinges on (even if Mages are wrong about it), he seems to understand what "game balance" means. And he doesn't think that game mechanics that reinforce theme are somehow anathema to his creativity, the way that Matt "Satiety mechanics are a great way to ignore the theme I claim I'm going for" McFarland.

>>43969540
You sound really stupid

>>43969534
>like with the whole "all Hunters must be Sleepwalkers, because muh themes" thing.
He said "This is how Mage says things work. If you use Mage, then this is how it works."
Don't ask the man who made the book what the rules are if you don't like them.

>>43969588
He does, but only internally.
>DaveB said: Game Balance is something for inside a game, not outside it.

>>43969568
Then please define "like everything else".

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>>43969518
>Demon has quite a bit of crossover stuff. Most of it saying "this overrides everything"
That is right. Demons are MEANT to be scary powerful in their purview.

>p.112

>>43969638
>Exceptional Success
>for the rest of the story

Jesus fuck.

>>43969588

Dave believes that -crossover- game balance is a myth, but that internal balance is important. The former is simply impossible, and most attempts actually hurt what a developer is trying to accomplish within the themes and priorities of his or her own gamelime.

Dave also never suggested that a "all Hunters must be Sleepwalkers." He did say that most lower tier Hunters are sleepers, and thus will have a very, very difficult time hunting Awakened mages because of the Quiescence. The measly one dot Sleepwalker Merit easily solves this problem.

>>43969679
>crossover game balance is a myth
I'm inclined to agree. They're meant to be on different power levels in relation to one another, but there's nothing inherently wrong with that since you can play as a group of Werewolves or Mages or Vampires or whatever and still be wildly different from one another.

If each template could only be played a single or very few ways (imagine like a "class" from other trpgs), that sense of internal balance would be a problem, but as it stands I think it's fine.

>>43969629
>>43969679
I'm fine with that. Although I do feel that "World of Darkness as a whole" should be considered, just not as much as Mage.
It's kind of like when they do a new set in Magic: The Gathering. Limited and Standard matter more than Modern, much more than Legacy, and who the fuck cares about Vintage.
This is also why I love the way that Hunter is set up. It doesn't worry about how Mage works, it worries about how the ST can create a fun evil sorcerer for the players to deal with. Plus, it's very economical to only need one book to be a Hunter, instead of requiring at least one "Base expansion" in addition to Hunter.

>>43969722
Frankly, that's kind of how it was in 1e anyway. The problem, of course, is that Beast is a) intentionally for Crossover, and b) not even internally balanced. Some choices are simply better than others.

>>43969638
What is this, a screenshot for ants?

>>43969665
Eh. It's not really that dramatic. You get an Exceptional to Spoof when someone uses Prime Aura Reading on you. You appear Human. It's unlikely that they're going to keep periodically checking you. It's really more useful for those "guilt by implication" ones, and that just means the Mage you're hanging out with won't notice you when he does Detect Human.

>>43969722
If I ever ran a crossover game, I'd simplify and tweak the splats to more compatible. They lose some of their thematic content, but that was already doomed from the get-go.

>>43969665
To be fair, it's pretty hard to roll an Exceptional Success on a Cover roll.

>>43969811
>What is this, a screenshot for ants?
Sorry, I have only a shitty netbook. More than that doesn't fit on my monitor, even that was with going full-screen mode.

>>43969811
>>43969832
I'm running a 1e crossover game right now (two mages, a vampire, and a werewolf). I'll let you know how badly it goes after the first 3 or 4 sessions and everyone's well acquainted with each others powers.

>>43969860
Werewolves can barely do anything within their own splat.

>>43969914
>mages just kill the vampire and werewolf characters until their players roll mages

>>43969860
>1e
>werewolf
If that vamp's a gangrel, poor wolfie won't have much to do.

>>43969860

The characters should do fine.

"Game balance is a myth" does not mean OPP and all the various developers are idiots (except possibly Matt with his Beast fiasco), and most of the major splats, particularly the Big 3 interact just fine. That, of course, does not mean certain characters or splats might not have an easier time with or be better at certain things. A lot also depends on a particular character build, rather than the splat itself.

>>43969954
1e gangrel were shit

>>43969970
>That, of course, does not mean certain characters or splats might not have an easier time with or be better at certain things.
Mages are and always will be better than everything than anyone else.

>>43969914

That might be true in 1e, but in 2e, werewolves are VERY formidable, and depending on build, quite versatile, including social and mental tasks besides their inherent combat capabilities.

>>43970007
Yes, but that doesn't matter when he's running a 1e game.

>>43969995
Tell that to my Sin-eater who walks into the Underworld straight out of character creation.

>>43970023
>Tell that to my Sin-eater who walks into the Underworld straight out of character creation.
Any mortal or member of any splat can walk into the underworld at character creation.

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mfw nWoD 2e is now nearly a month in approval.

>>43970023
It'll be fine. We have an understanding in the group to allow everyone some fun, and we all keep in pretty close contact with each other when it comes to what skills or merits or disciplines or whatever that the players are taking and how they all plan to play their characters.

>>43969995

That's just not true. Mage do have the theoretical potential to be quite versatile considering the breadth of the Arcana, but the vast majority of mages are relatively specialized and favor certain Arcana.

>>43970062
Not easily. It's Death 5, being a Gatekeeper, or having a Key to open the Avernian Gateway. Or being a Sin-eater.

Likewise no one can cross the Rivers without a Psyche score or a Ferryman.

>>43970095
>mfw nWoD 2e is now nearly a month in approval.

Adjusting the new corebook to the "One World of Darkness" doesn't happen overnight.

It takes time to insert so much metaplot...

>>43970095

Punpun is shit and so are you

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>>43970158
You should relax.

>>43969811
>The problem, of course, is that Beast is a) intentionally for Crossover, and b) not even internally balanced. Some choices are simply better than others.
Why the hell did he make the "even bigger unrepentant dicks than Vampires" splat the crossover splat?

Every other splat has a morality meter. Anyone who hasn't dropped down to "kill on sight" tier in their supernatural community is going to find Beasts repulsive.

Even the vampires.

Hell, maybe especially the vampires.

And that's not even getting into how ludicrously OP they are.

>>43969995
Mages are, generally, worse than other splats at what they specialize in. They can usually duplicate the effects, but it takes a hell of a lot more time and effort.

They're worse at mind control than vampires, worse at shapeshifting than werewolves, worse at dream-fuckery than Changelings...

>>43970125
Aren't Arcana caps for Gnosis levels lower in 2E?

>>43970323
>They're worse at mind control than vampires, worse at shapeshifting than werewolves, worse at dream-fuckery than Changelings...

Wow that's just so wrong.

They don't need eye contact to mind control and can do it permanently at long range without even having met you. They can shapeshift into anything, not just wolves and humans, and they are the MASTERS of dream fuckery, Changelings can barely do any dream magic without an agreement from the victim to let them into their dreams (and they still have to do something for them in exchange for that access)

>>43970362
Supposedly, yes. Also, simpler. Might just be "cap for Ruling"/"cap for non-Ruling" or something now, as opposed to listing exactly how many dots you can have in your first through tenth Arcana.

>>43970323
Mages can enter dreams with a simple mind spell

>>43970386
>can do it permanently at long range without even having met you.
>what is Unknown sympathy
>what is no permanent spells on living patterns

>They can shapeshift into anything, not just wolves and humans
At Life 4, sure, and they have to worry about spell factors and shit. Werewolves just shapeshift whenever the fuck they feel like it.
>and they are the MASTERS of dream fuckery, Changelings can barely do any dream magic without an agreement from the victim to let them into their dreams (and they still have to do something for them in exchange for that access)
Have you seen how much Mind sucks in the Astral?

>>43970362

I believe Dave mentioned that you now need a Gnosis of at least 5 to achieve mastery in an Arcana, but I don't think he's spoiled the relevant chart.

The Path Arcana and experience were spoiled, although I believe there have since been some revisions.

http://theonyxpath.com/pathfinding/

>>43970288
I have to admit, and I know that I'm alone or almost alone with that opinion, that I enjoyed the idea of playing a REAL monster for once.

The crossover idea is admittedly bad. The only thing that I can imagine is that Beasts were thought as a sorts of dark mirror for other splats.

>>43970442

You should read some of the 2e spoilers. The Arcana have received significant increases in power and versatility.

>>43970442
>At Life 4, sure, and they have to worry about spell factors and shit. Werewolves just shapeshift whenever the fuck they feel like it.
And still mages can turn into anything they want.

>Have you seen how much Mind sucks in the Astral?
The Astral is not Dreams.

>>43970442
>>what is Unknown sympathy
You don't have to meet someone to know about them.
>>what is no permanent spells on living patterns
They've got rid of that.

>>43969976

Not nearly as shit as 1e werewolves

>>43970482

If you like real monsters, Vampire and Werewolf are great books, and Changeling should permit you to build most monster types.

Beast definitely had some interesting underlying ideas, but the execution could best be described as total, unmitigated crap.

I sincerely hope DaveB does a much better job with Deviant, his new property, than Matt did with Beast.

>>43970195
Nigger I will end you.

>>43970587
>If you like real monsters, Vampire and Werewolf are great books, and Changeling should permit you to build most monster types.
They are. But what I meant with a "real monster" was exactly the sort of "unrepentable" people are upset about. Not lolrandumb evil, but ancient, foreign and not understood even by oneself. (no, not angsty "misunderstood", just completely inhuman). I stress again, I wouldn't play it for spreading violence left and right, and you don't have to.

I also liked the lack of innersplat politics, so you have to focus on something else. It's not what I want WoD to be in general, but as one splat of many, as an explicit exception, I liked it.

>>43970386
Dominate is not the only mind-fuckery Vampires have and while a Mind mage can copy many of the effects, the ease with which most vampires can create slaves is not something even a Master of Mind can easily keep up with without significant preparation.

Indeed, you need to be a Disciple of Mind at least to copy some of the 1-dot Discipline effects, and every vampire from fledgling on up has access to the Vinculum and Predatory Aura.

>>43970774
Predatory Aura has nothing to do with mind control, but not every vampire has dominate or Majesty. Those that do are overshadowed by masters of Mind. They can emulate a vinculum without needing to dose someone with blood.

>>43970482
I wouldn't have minded a splat for playing unrepentant monsters, but Beast's tone was weirdly at odds with that angle, and strangely hypocritical about its own monstrousness. That more than anything turned me off the whole thing.

>>43970835
Which is easier: A random vamp learning a dot of Dominate, or a random mage becoming a master of Mind?

>>43970875
A dot of Dominate doesn't give you as much power as a dot in Mind.

But considering anyone can start with Mind in Mage, and you have to be Ventrue to start with Dominate, or succumb to a blood bond yourself, I'm siding with Mind here.

Raising dots in Arcana has never been easier.

>>43970770

One of the problems with Beast is that there's really no motivation or goals to accomplish.

Terrorize the innocent food delivery guy to teach him the valuable lesson of never forgetting the soy sauce, call-up Vampire buddy to go to the movies over the weekend, practice scary face in the mirror, check for Heroes under your bed, take a nap,... zzzzzz

The advantage of social groups, politics and a fully developed society are major goals and plot hooks. Crossover was supposed to be a substitute in Beast, but the experiment patently failed.

>>43970945
Never put Matt in charge of an entire book. He can make core mechanics but if you give him too much he falls apart.

>>43970835
>Predatory Aura has nothing to do with mind control

Fair enough, but both vampire mind tricks and the Mind Arcanum also cover emotion control, so I lumped it in.

>They can emulate a vinculum without needing to dose someone with blood.

Hard to judge right now since we do not have the Spell Factor charts yet, but having a Spell last a year would quite likely require significant Yantra investment to have a good shot at pulling it off. A mage casting a spell has to worry about a lot of circumstantial bells and whistles, including Spell Factors and Paradox.

Also, a nice side benefit for vamps: They cannot just create a slave with a drop of Blood, but make them a better slave by simply adding a Willpower point.

>>43971029
>They cannot just create a slave with a drop of Blood, but make them a better slave by simply adding a Willpower point.
I suggest you read up on Vampire if you want to use it as the centerpiece of your arguments.

One drop of blood causes a mild and frequent interest. Giving them Willpower makes them a ghoul. At this point you have a character who is mildly interested in you and has similar powers to you. Not a slave. Someone who can burn you un-alive and the only tears shed are from smoke.

Three separate ingestions of blood to get a full blood bond, and even then it only works for a limited period of time and doesn't guarantee control (you need dominate or really powerful social skills for that).

But hey, are you a Mage? You can do it with your eyes closed and hands tied behind your back.

>>43971018

Although it didn't suit my personal tastes, Matt's handling of Promethean 1e (and the few spoilers for 2e) was not too bad, and certainly nothing like Beast.

Matt certainly has had some issues over the years as a writer and developer, but Beast was far worse than most anyone could have predicted.

I understand that OP wanted to experiment a little, and I respect that, but any idiot could have seen most of the problems (and the playtesters apparently warned him, but were ignored).

>>43970770
>Not lolrandumb evil, but ancient, foreign and not understood even by oneself. (no, not angsty "misunderstood", just completely inhuman)

Mummy and Demon are fantastic games for this sort of feeling. I don't recall that it was anything Beast ever even promised.

>>43971128
>At this point you have a character who is mildly interested in you and has similar powers to you. Not a slave. Someone who can burn you un-alive and the only tears shed are from smoke.

>First Stage: [...] Causing direct or indirect harm to one’s regnant constitutes a breaking point at Humanity 5/Integrity -2

k


>But hey, are you a Mage? You can do it with your eyes closed and hands tied behind your back.

Except any serious and lasting magic under those circumstances will quite possibly leave you with a Chance Die to cast and/or a good Paradox dice pool to endure.

>>43971260
>Except any serious and lasting magic under those circumstances will quite possibly leave you with a Chance Die to cast and/or a good Paradox dice pool to endure.
Your blindfold and rope are yantras, and paradox is a joke anyways.

>>43971128
>But hey, are you a Mage? You can do it with your eyes closed and hands tied behind your back.

I'm sorry, but do you have those 2E Spell Factor charts to back up this claim?

>>43971260
-2 to an Integrity roll isn't bad, it's comparable to seeing a violent supernatural attack, or witnessing an accidental death of a stranger.

>>43969588
>I may be wrong, but while Dave certainly does seem to default to Mage cosmology being what all of the WoD hinges on

I am actually known for being insistent among my fellow Devs that nothing - *nothing* - is linked to the Supernal Realms except for Mage. To the point of ripping the band-aid off the eternal 1st edition Changeling crossover question and explicitly stating that no, Supernal Arcadia is not changeling Arcadia, and the Gentry are not the Time or Fate entities mages summon.

The Arcana are combination tools and academic disciplines. A vampire shows up to Death magic, and a changeling or demon's oath-based powers can be fucked with using Fate, but it doesn't mean the vampire is from Stygia, or the demon or changeling from Best!Arcadia.

So, no, Mage cosmology is in no way what the rest of the WoD hinges on, and my time as Developer has been spent increasingly annoying writers by telling them to stop claiming otherwise.

See, just because our splat is the best doesn't mean it overruns other cosmologies (unless your gm wants it)

>>43971321
>-2 to an Integrity roll isn't bad, it's comparable to seeing a violent supernatural attack, or witnessing an accidental death of a stranger.

I know implication is often hard to grasp for autists, but you see most people consider murder to be worse than "indirect harm", especially of a loved one. That is to say, if you actually killed your regnant, the penalty would be worse than a -2.

>>43971283
>Your blindfold and rope are yantras

I am not sure how the caster being blindfolded and tied up helps them create mental bondage in others.

>and paradox is a joke anyways
Well, from what we know so far, this will change, unless you are a high Wisdom mage, which, given that you are trying to out-mindrape a hypothetical average vampire, you probably are not.

A related point: A ST could very well consider extreme mind control as being subject to Dissonance by other Sleepers.

>>43971350

Regardless of whether Changeling Arcadia is Supernal Arcadia, can mages in 2e use their Arcana to open Gates to and interact with the Hedge, or are such abilities still limited to the Shadow and Underworld?

>>43971430
First stage blood bond doesn't a loved one make, and killing a blood-sucking corpse doesn't even have to cause a BP.

>>43971350
>>43971393

Mages interact with such a wide variety of Fallen and extra-dimensional areas that the complaints about the cosmology were inevitable.

I do very much like that in 2e mages acknowledge most of the mysterious and spooky stuff they encounter and study has absolutely nothing to do with the supernal at all.

>>43970945
The plots I thought of were surprisingly Mortal or Hunter-like in their basic premise. There's something scary in my neighbourhood, let's investigate! or maybe even mortal shit, like the TPA votes that were one of the goals of the example creation character.

(I don't try to make you play it, I… I don't even know why I'm talking about it. I guess I just wanted to see what people think of my view of the game.

>>43971445
Not only do we not say anywhere in Mage itself, but I am supremely uninterested in ever answering it - the Shadow and Underworld were designed as available to any game, part of the core nWoD, so we use them. The Hedge only ever appears in Changeling, so we don't.

It'd be up to DavidH in a Changeling book. Or more likely for an individual group.

(The one case of a seemingly-proprietary setting chunk like that being suddenly opened up, which has never happened before? It was when Beast used the Astral.)

>>43971527

Hey, if you like Beast, power to you. It's also certainly acceptable to change it to suit your tastes and preferences. It's not like we judge anyone here on 4chan... ;)

I, and apparently many others, just thought Beast was a big missed opportunity, and that's mostly because Matt wouldn't let anything inside his bubble.

>>43971599
>(The one case of a seemingly-proprietary setting chunk like that being suddenly opened up, which has never happened before? It was when Beast used the Astral.)

Any you conveniently were the writer for Lairs... :)

This question might be premature, but do plan on having a special or unique dimension/world for Deviants, or will they be stuck on the gritty streets of the WOD?

>>43971610
What were actually these opportunities? I read the book more by chance, and haven't ever heard what the promises were. Well, besides crossover.

>>43971180
I love Demon to pieces. Mummy is too out of contact with mortals from what I've heard. But thank you for the suggestion. As for promises, well, see above.

>>43971599
Well, Demons (with Rip the Gates or however this one Exploit was called) walk in and out of the Hedge as much as they want.

>>43970158
You shut your whore mouth.

>>43965154
>PROGRESS!

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I'm having trouble conceptualizing what your "average" Mage: the Ascension game is like. What do you actually DO? Like, in D&D/PF you go fight monsters, learn of a bigger plot, fight more baddies/uncover treasure until the DM says you saved the day.

From what I've read, M:tAs games go like this:
>PC mage wakes up, realizes reality is their bitch, probably has to deal with the fallout of this realization/Paradox, joins other PC's

>PC's makes friends/enemies, learns about the different factions, likely joins one

>PC's learn more about how magic works while fighting the Technocracy/Marauders/Nephandi/bad Council mages, explore the Umbra, pursue their own agendas, pursue their Tradition's agendas

>???

>Profit!

Does that sound about right? Am I missing anything big? Obviously there are a LOT of ways this could all play out, especially if you're playing a Technocrat, but does this fit the overall scheme of things?

>>43972639

In my experience, yeah - a lot of Mage games start with a Tutorial game for new players.

Once you've had a few campaigns and have a decent idea for the setting, then it's business as usual.

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What is your favorite z-splat of your favorite splat? That is, your favorite bloodline/lodge/legacy/entitlement and so forth.

Since I don't want to be a Newist and discriminate against oWoDfags, oWoDfags, what is your favorite "social" organization in your games? Including Vampire sects, werewolf tribes and so on

>>43972639
I've asked this same thing and I didn't really get a satisfactory answer. However, after studying a lot I've found that it (along with the rest of cwod) works better with a planned story rather than going sandbox like nwod stuff. So you have a set scenario, like the Technocracy is wiping out conclaves or there's a hidden artifact that may help open peoples eyes or strengthen your paradigm, and the players work towards that.

>>43971599
>Not only do we not say anywhere in Mage itself, but I am supremely uninterested in ever answering it - the Shadow and Underworld were designed as available to any game, part of the core nWoD, so we use them. The Hedge only ever appears in Changeling, so we don't.
So not including the Hedge and cArcadia is straight-up the same as not including God-Machine temporal pockets and the like. Got it.

I wonder how Werewolf players feel that Mage necessarily includes the alternate realm that their game is built around. Or how Mage players feel that their game automatically includes Werewolves' primary stomping ground.

You can use the Death Arcanum without interacting with the Underworld, but using the Spirit Arcanum without interacting with the Shadow is close to impossible.

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>>43972685
>>43972733
Good stuff, thanks! I want to try playing a $yndicate Technocrat, I think it'd be fun as hell.

Is it weird that I don't care about the Consensus but also consider Awakening's interpretation of The Lie utterly abhorrent bullshit?

It's essentially
>okay uh, magic exists. Cool. Everything bad comes from god mages, so be a good person
With no further point since The Lie inherently cannot be overcome without just happening to be SPESHUL.

Ascension at least had the whole "Yes if everyone rejected the paradigm we could do great things" shit, but Awakening puts it all up for chance and gives no scenario in which Mages could improve anything.

Though again, the Technocratic Paradigm isn't THAT bad.

>>43971870
Rip the Gates lets them in the Hedge, but not out.

>>43972768

Spirits have always been part of the default nWOD setting, irrespective of werewolves. Just check out the nWOD Book of Spirits.

>>43972802
It's not. nMage is a good game but many parts do not - and cannot - gel with each other because of the toolbox approach. The Lie is not a Lie at all, most people won't even touch the supernal even if they wanted.

>>43972845

The otherworlds have never been all that difficult to enter if you were determined, but assuming you survive the experience, leaving has always been a bitch.

>>43972768
>I wonder how Werewolf players feel that Mage necessarily includes the alternate realm that their game is built around. Or how Mage players feel that their game automatically includes Werewolves' primary stomping ground.
It was a pretty big bummer. As someone who wanted to be a fan in 1e, when werewolf mechanics sucked ass, it was actually easier to just be a mage shapeshifter with spirit magic.
Now werewolves are much cooler, but mages have more concrete power in the spirit world. Hopefully a book will get into things werewolfs can do in the spirit other than hunt shit, but until then it's annoying. Especially because if you bring it up, some mage fan just says well you don't have to use mages, even though the worlds have since the beginning really implied a shared universe. And it's not so much that mages have all the power in the shadow, more that werewolf books focus on them in the material world, so their ability to interact with spirits is (nearly) the same as their ability to interact with humans.

>>43972862
I think Werewolf predates Book of Spirits.

>>43971350
>I am actually known for being insistent among my fellow Devs that nothing - *nothing* - is linked to the Supernal Realms except for Mage.
Yeah, but didn't you just use Quiescence as the reason why people forget about the supernatural? Because that's what I mean.

>>43973031
It's -a- reason people forget about the supernatural, its not the only reason.

>>43972980

But book of Spirits has no inherent focus on werewolves.

>>43972802
I'm of the near reverse opinion: Consesus is a horrid pile bullshit the size of Jupiter, while the Lie, the Supernal and the Fallen make sense.

And Ascension was literally: why can't the sheeple just let me cast my vulgar magic! I'm more speshul than them, so they're opinions don't matter.

>>43972873
Explain please.

>>43973122
>why can't the sheeple just let me cast my vulgar magic! I'm more speshul than them, so they're opinions don't matter.
Whereas Awakening is
>I am more special than them. Their opinions don't matter. This is the Truth.