Pathfinder General /pfg/

>>43851312
Powerful, maybe not, but useful? Sure.

For shits and giggles, trying to make a magical girl in pathfinder. Thinking of using Synthesist Summoner as a base. Any suggestions?

>>43851312
Checkmate.

The best of archetype design.

Swordlord Fighters.

All their archetype abilities require dueling swords.

Proficiency in dueling swords? Naw. We're just gonna put Exotic Proficiency: Dueling Sword down here in the recommended feats list...

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>>43851326

I am trying to see if a build desired by >>43850005 (a 4th-level chakram thrower) can be even remotely vindicated compared to a conventional Path of War melee attacker or bow-user. I am very much having trouble with it.

Consider the following feats a two-weapon chakram thrower will want to have: Quick Draw, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Finesse, Deadly Agility, Two-Weapon Fighting, Twin Throw. These are the feats that can bring thrown weapons on par with, say, bows, and yet there is simply no way to place all of these feats onto a single low-level character.

Add to that the fact that a thrown weapon-user has to purchase a Blinkback Belt for 5,000 gp (or a similar item) and spread out their magic weapons across several weapons, and such a build is looking very weak compared to a bow-user.

I am thinking that such a character should settle for Weapon Finesse, Deadly Agility, Point Blank Shot, and Precise Shot, and focus on standard action strikes that can be initiated through thrown weapons. They will have to use a move action to move and draw a new chakram every turn, however.

I dare say that at 4th-level, a soulknife (gifted blade, psychic armory, war soul) would be ideal, but we all know how the psychic armory is vastly more powerful than any other soulknife save for perhaps the Living Legend, if not more powerful than most other DSP classes and archetypes.

>>43851350

If Dreamscarred Press material is allowed, you can also look into the aegis, a class that revolves around shaping and customizing a magical costume.

If not, a synthesist should work well enough. Remember to purchase Sleeves of Many Garments.

>>43851312
Depending on what content is actually allowed, thrown builds can be pretty damn strong. Look at the 3.5 Master Thrower. You can throw a weapon and have it split into two, have all your thrown attacks be touch attacks, have them ricochet to other nearby people, and all sorts of other dank-ass shit. The only issue is it's still technically a 5 level prestige class, so you'll lose out on normal features.

Thankfully, Rogue Genius Games provides a solution to that, with the feat Prestigous, which lets you pick up the class features from a prestige class at half your hitdice minus five, so if you're level 15, you'd get the equivalent of level 5.

>>43851380
>3.5

>>43851361
How is Psychic Armory good? I seem to be missing something here.

>>43851350
Synthesist Summoner on its own if pretty flavorful- you might also look into dipping two levels into Eldrich Scion Magus (since it uses Cha as the casting/pool stat) to pull spellstrike shenanigans while synthesized for that sweet magic-in-melee action.

>>43851361
Fighter.

I think Fighters make nice thrown weapon users, at least without any extra initiating blarney.

I've been pondering (Within the last half hour or so) a Cyber Soldier Fighter specializing in throwing knives.

Focused Weapon is nice, and three still-remaining iterations of Weapon Training, Cybernetic Combat and Trained Throw make for some nice flat damage increases.

And then in the actual feats, besides the usual ranged necessities... Ricochet Shot, eliminating the need for a blinkback belt. Hell, technically, you could get away without quick draw, since you don't have to draw your weapons from your belt constantly in order to full attack.

I've been pondering this character to actually be a thief using Steal feats and Ace Disarm to steal from people by throwing knives at them and bouncing valuables back to him.

Question-Can you grab a Metapsionic feat from a class feature/ability/etc that lets you get a Psionic feat?

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Anyone used Paizo's weapon design system to stat the weapons of Bloodborne yet?

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>>43851380

Is there a Pathfinder equivalent of the Master Thrower?

>>43851392

The psychic armory has:

- d10 HD, full BAB, 4 + Intelligence modifier skill points, and two good saving throws.

- Wisdom-based attack rolls and damage rolls from 1st level.

- No attacks of opportunity provoked by making ranged attacks, also from 1st level.

- Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot as bonus feats, also from 1st level.

- Three separate enhancement configurations for mind blades (including a 2d6 damage, range 20 feet thrown weapon) that can be switched to without any action expenditure, and that can switch from bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage. This means that a psychic armory can have a response to virtually any threat imaginable.

- Access to a trait that grants a +1 trait bonus to all of its ranged attack rolls (Trickshot Soul).

- As per the "high psionics" sidebar of Psionics Augmented, free access to a manifesting archetype (Gifted Blade), and access to a trait that removes the -2 manifester level penalty of that archetype (Psionic Knack).

- Access to a Path of War archetype that constantly recharges its maneuvers or psionic focus (War Soul), and that can supercharge its full attacks with stances like Elemental Nimbus (Elemental Flux 1) and boosts like Time Skitter (Riven Hourglass 3).

The psychic armory is far and away more powerful and versatile than the regular soulknife, and is quite possibly more powerful and versatile than the majority of non-full-manifesting DSP builds.

>>43851437

All of the feats a plain fighter could be sinking into thrown weapons could be feats the fighter is investing in archery instead. I suppose that is unsurprising, however, given that archery is the most useful martial combat style in Path of War-less Pathfinder. The end result of a thrower is not even impressive by 4th-level, but instead mediocre.

>>43851455
Dude, how many builds DO come online by level 4? Besides 'I'm going to get a big twohanded sword and hit people'

And I wasn't saying 'oh, thrown fighter can be so powerful'

I was saying 'thrown fighter can be useful'

And that's what you should be after at least. Useful.

>>43851455
Yes, it's called the Master Thrower, from 3.5. The systems are compatible together, and there's no real reason to not allow it's use.

>>43851470
You're a fighter. The only use you have is combat.

>>43851455
What would a Psychic Armory gestalt well with?

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>>43851473
Anon. Please.

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I need some advice as a GM:

here's the group my players play:

Ranger
======
"Samurai" type guy: Guide/Skirmisher archtypes - specializes in dual wakizashi fighting.
Is kind of quick to anger and likes to use violence if it offers an effective solution, has some code of honor though.
Inexperienced player - likes combat and structured roleplay.

Sorcerer
======
Fire "Blaster" sorcerer (Crossblooded: Elemental Draconic).
Has some elaborate back story but is effectively a walking flametrower so far into the game.
Most often the player who holds the others back to not fuck something up horribly (most times they do it anyway)

Bard
====
Gnome Archer Bard. Biggest character sheet of them all - somehow can't do anything actually useful though.
Quite often it's the players fault since he doesn't use his characters skills properly.
Somewhat narcissistic player, likes to be the center of attention (so playing a bard was an obvious choice)

Alchemist
=======
Half Orc Alchemist, specializes in feral mutagen stuff - effectively has wolverine claws and goes wild smashing and cutting things up. Most damage sheet-wise, currently.
Most experienced player that likes to roleplay - but sadly got his character fucked up in some prison cell or something every session so far.

Ranger
======
Wanted to play something similar to Aragorn. Specializes into greatswords.
Player doesn't really think things through - although he's one of the most intelligent ones at the table and shows huge interest for lore and reads a ton.


I have three questions/problems:

1) What character is "missing" most? In other words: what kind of additional character would the group benefit from most?

2) How can I "force" my players into roleplaying more? NPC discussion hardly take longer than 30 seconds with them and they talk in between themselves much more than talking to NPCs during them.

3) I'm planning to "remove" one character from the immediate plot (for plot reasons) - which one should/could go?

>>43851479
A Fighter is still a character. And Versatile Training is a thing. A thing which you can take twice, making your effective skill points/level 6+int.

But yes. I think this character would still be useful in combat.

>>43851499
Hey, until Paizo decides to actually start printing content that it should and gives us an alternative to it that's PF Official, that class is still compatible in it's entirety.

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>>43851470

>Dude, how many builds DO come online by level 4?

Archery:
Race: Human
Class: Fighter (myrmidon) 1, marksman (disciple of the third eye) 1, warder (hawkguard) 1, or warlord 1
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot

Two-handed weapon:
Race: Any
Class: Any with full BAB at 1st level
Feat: Power Attack

Two-weapon fighting
Race: Human
Class: Fighter (myrmidon) 1, warder (dervish defender) 1, or warlord 1
Feats: Weapon Finesse, Deadly Agility, Two-Weapon Fighting

>>43851501
1) A support character-probably focused on enemy debuffing and control. 4 members of the party are already damage-focused and the gnome can't function in his role, so you need someone competent whose main focus isn't roll the highest DPR possible.
2) You might need to make the characters more appealing to them-perhaps someone who shares the TWF ranger's code, or a prison mate of the half-orc.
3) The gnome bard needs to go, the player is clearly trying to be the spotlight while being incompetent.

>>43851350
play an Aegis if you can, chosen one paladin also works

>>43851501
>1) What character is "missing" most? In other words: what kind of additional character would the group benefit from most?
Seems like you need crowd control., but that's all I can think of. Support might also work, if the Bard isn't fulfilling that role.

>2) How can I "force" my players into roleplaying more? NPC discussion hardly take longer than 30 seconds with them and they talk in between themselves much more than talking to NPCs during them
Get them invested. the moment they're invested in a character, they'll start wanting to interact with it more. Make someone mysterious that they can't immediately get a grip on the mentality of. I'd recommend taking a look at a youtube video or Let's Play of the Royal Ball scenario of Dragon Age: Inquisition. In a game primarily about fighting shit and exploring, it manages to make the mystery fairly engaging.

>3) I'm planning to "remove" one character from the immediate plot (for plot reasons) - which one should/could go?
Not the bard - he'd get pissy. Alchemist already gets removed from play too much due to the prison cell thing. Samuranger should continue to take part, since you need to get him a bit more Roleplay experience. that means you should go for the flamethrower.


Now for a question of my own - how'd you set up that picture?

>>43851484
Ordained Defender Warder, Mystic, or Inquisitor.

>>43851501
The party is all hammers, and no anvils

To explain, for a strong party, you basically need three types of characters

1. Hammers, these are the most obvious, these mainly consist of people who deal damage
2. Arms, these are usually buffers or enablers, usually a bard for a cleric type that makes the hammers better at what they do
3. Anvils, controllers, this can be anything from maneuver focused builds, or something like that. At the end of the day, its anything that helps pin an enemy down or prevent them from hurting the hammers and arms

Your party is all hammers. If they're not roleplaying enough its because they're all hammers (except for the bard, who is an incompetent arm), and when thats all you have, EVERYTHING STARTS TO LOOK LIKE A NAIL.

So you need a controller type character

>>43851562
I've used the WoW Model Viewer Tool that allows for displaying World of Warcraft models - as well as equipping them. I do that for pretty much all the NPCs and most monsters - since by now WoW has a tremendous amount of assets and its way faster than drawing them and better than fast sketches.

>>43851550
>>43851562
>>43851608

thanks guys!

I'm going to implement something relating to their backstories then, I guess - that should get them to roleplay a bit.

I have never come across this hammers/arms/anvils concept, but I like it!
Going to implement a crowd-controller or something. Any idea what class/archtype would work well with that group?

>>43851694
Try a Witch. Very focused on debuffs and buffs, has some support and crowd control, even has some healing, but lacks damage.

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>>43851701
never looked into witches - are they fun to play?

also, all players are male (obviously), is there any lore/fluff to support male witches?

If I'd make one player to re-roll a character for a witch - which one would be best in your opinion?

>>43851737
1. yes
2. bruh it doesn't matter call it a warlock if they get butthurt
3. You shouldn't -force- a player to reroll to anything

>>43851749
I'm not forcing them to reroll anything - but they are very cooperative and generally ask me for what to play anyway.
the only thing I'm doing though is making sure at least one kicks the bucket if they continue to behave as stupid as they did up until now
(they went into a wizard academy, killed a student by punching his face into a piece of furniture for no other reason than being to scared to help them with breaking in the archmages quarters ...)

I am going to play a druid who worships Shub-Niggurath. Are there any rites and boons written for her (for the purposes of Deific Obedience feat)? Archives of Nethys and Pathfinder Wiki give nothing. Also, I assume she is the goddess of fertility and life no matter how twisted and fucked up, is that correct?

>>43851578
>Mystic
Maybe if it had an actual recovery mechanic.

>>43851990
Might I recommend looking at Lamashtu?

>>43852011
Thanks, but no, it has to be a druid and it has to be Shub-Niggurath because reasons.

>>43852019
you're a shub-niggurath

>>43852019
No, I mean look at Lamashtu. She's got similar things going for her as Shub-Niggurath and because Shubby doesn't have any specific obediences listed out, Lamashtu's stuff would be a good starting point for Figuring her out.

Would a Spell-like ability version of "Fireball" be changed to cold damage if i had the sorcerer Marid bloodline?

>>43852203
i don't see why it couldn't

who the fuck has a SLA fireball

>>43852203
no, since that only affects spells - not spell-like-abilities

in many cases your GM can be convinced to allow it anyway, though

>>43852220
just an example

>>43852225
But dont they state "In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell." Isnt this kind of misleading then?

>>43852246
It's not misleading, it's just that taking a game like Pathfinder on a purely RAW basis is fucking stupid, and it's always gonna require a bit of "Well, it makes sense, so go ahead."

>>43852253
>it's always gonna require a bit of "Well, it makes sense, so go ahead."
Unless you're playing PFS. In that case, you're screwed.

>>43852253
Thanks. Ill see how my DM wants to rule it, I personally wanted to use fire kblasts with the marid bloodline and freezing spells mystery

>>43852258
If you're playing PFS, then you're too retarded to understand anything other than Paizo's stupid shit, and you don't deserve anything better.

>>43852274
Fair enough.

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>Warpath Follower
>Undertaking a Warpath requires dedicated service to the arts of war. Those who pursue a Warpath lose some of their divinely granted class features in order to gain the power necessary for their undertaking. Below is what each class gives up in order to gain a Warpath

>Inquisitor
>- The Inquisitor loses their Judgement Class Feature.
>- The Inquisitor loses their Second Judgement Class Feature.
>- The Inquisitor loses their Third Judgement Class Feature.
>- The Inquisitor loses their True Judgement Class Feature.

Is judgment really so powerful as to constitute the entire tradeoff of the inquisitor (warpath follower)? I am not denying that it is useful, but I am doubtful that a 4th-level inquisitor's 2/day judgment is as powerful and as versatile as a 4th-level inquisitor (warpath follower)'s four maneuvers readied, 2nd-level maneuvers, and stances.

Is it?

>>43851473
>The systems are compatible together

No they aren't. It's easy to convert classes from 3.5 to PF, but they aren't compatible.

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>>43852332

>Warpriest
>- The Warpriest loses their Focus Weapon Class Feature.
>- The Warpriest loses their Sacred Weapon Class Feature.
>- The Warpriest loses their Sacred Armor Class Feature.
>- The Warpriest loses their Aspect of War Class Feature.

Likewise, I find myself doubting that the warpriest (warpath follower) sacrifices as much as it gains.

A 4th-level warpriest is not likely to benefit much from Sacred Weapon damage. As a warpath follower, they trade in Weapon Focus and a highly limited-use magic weapon buff for four maneuvers readied, 2nd-level maneuvers, and stances, which seem much more powerful and versatile to me.

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what's the most memorable/enjoyable side-quest you ever had during a Pathfinder session?

I'm looking for some more things to have as a backup if my players wander off-track a bit.

Anything that can easily be adapted to work in Pathfinder counts as well (such as other systems or even video games to some extent)

>>43852375
The literal only 'conversion' that needs doing for the vast majority of 3.5 content is consolidating skills, fixing HD sizes, and minor tweaks of wording for some specific classes. The majority of martial content ports over 100% with no issues other than that some of it needs a bump in power. The majority of arcane casting ports over just fine with nearly zero issues aside from very small wording issues, or the occasional outlier in terms of power that needs to be reduced.

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>>43852332
Not /quite/ the only thing lost, anon. They've also got to throw some, though not all, of their spells over the black altar to prep their maneuvers.

There is an Sage archetype for familiars. It states that the familiar gains 2 skill ranks each level, and its intelligence equals 5+its level. Does that mean that at levels 7 and 8 it gains 3 ranks, because its intelligence is now 12, at levels 9 and 10 he gains 4 ranks, and so on?

How's Pathfinder for complete PnP-RPG virgins?

Was thinking of introducing a few of my mates to DnD, but don't know which Ed. would be the best entry point.

>>43852392
Hey Gareth, a (probably not so quick) question for you.

How would you do a "Magic As Technology" culture/world?

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>>43852439
Hrm. Are we talking magepunk (Eberron style) or "express magical mechanics with technological fluff"?

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>>43852332
>>43852382

Oh, warpath followers also gain these two trinkets of class features on top of everything else, as metaphorical cherries on top:

>Divine Focus Weapon (Ex): At 1st level, the follower of a warpath gains insight into the Path of War through their deity, granting them knowledge of how to use weapons more effectively. The follower gains Proficiency and Weapon Focus with either their Deity’s favored weapon or a martial weapon of their choice. The follower of the Warpath can choose to learn and ready maneuvers from disciplines associated with their Divine Focus Weapon’s weapon group instead of those from their Deity’s favored weapon (this choice must be made at 1st level). In addition, while wielding this weapon or their deity’s favored weapon, the follower can use that weapon as a focus for their divine casting.

>Controlled Insight (Ex): At 4th level, the Warpath Follower is better able to understand the needs and desires of his deity. Whenever the Warpath Follower begins a new cycle of granted maneuvers, he may choose the first two maneuvers granted to him instead of having them be randomly determined.

>>43852392

I see nothing regarding sacrificing spells in the entry for the warpath follower. Am I missing something?

Supposedly:
>Those who follow a warpath give up some of their spellcasting proficiency in order fight for the causes of their god with greater effectiveness.

Nothing in the mechanics, however, indicates a loss of spellcasting.

>>43852446
It was left purposefully vague to let you draw your own conclusions. I personally favor the dungeonpunk/magepunk style, but it's up to you.

>>43852438
Terrible. Just about any other game would be better than Pathfinder/any version of 3.x. In fact, your best bet would be to stay away from D&D entirely and pick up something like Runequest if you want a fantasy game.

Is it a good thing that many classes don't get damaging controls?

>>43852452
Casting spells interferes with maneuver use, as they take up similar actions. Strikes are standard actions, like most spells. Boosts mostly affect weapon attacks and are thus incompatible with spells. So for most turns it's a choice between one or the other.

Divine weapon focus simply exists to allow players to use the weapon THEY want to use. Inquistors don't have martial weapon proficiency after all. It suits a more martial priest to have training in more weapons than normal. I don't know how many times I've said it, but again "I'm not in the business of needlessly limiting player options."

Controlled insight is a math fix for the issues with granted maneuvers. If you look at the mystic, their granted maneuvers use similar wording.

>>43852480
Do you mean the ability to CC something and also inflict damage?

>>43852529
Why did you ever do random maneuver recovery?

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For any of the Dreamscarred Press writers present, here are two more psionics-related matters I have been curious about.

1. If I gain a temporary bonus to manifester level, such as from the Psionics cleric domain, what is the time frame in which I must manifest the power in order to avail of the bonus?
If I am manifesting a power with a manifesting time of 1 minute and a Psionics cleric uses Psionic Amplifier, do I gain the bonus if I begin to manifest the power during the amplification, if I finishing manifesting the power during the amplification, or not at all, because the power's manifestation must begin and end during the amplification?

2. My apologies for belaboring the point, but has there been any word on the tactician's Collective Defenses, mentioned here >>43842428?

>>43852529

By this logic, a non-archetyped inquisitor or warpriest is also giving up spells because the offensive aspects of the inquisitor's judgment and the warpriest's sacred weapon do not affect spells.

It is a bit of a moot point considering that these are divine spellcasters (divine spellcasting is more buff-oriented than arcane spellcasting) and that the inquisitor's spell list contains various swift action litanies, is it not?

An inquisitor or a warpriest sacrifices a small slice of their class features in exchange for very reliable maneuvers (they can choose which maneuvers they are granted at the start of each cycle, and their readied maneuvers automatically refresh) and a Weapon Proficiency/Focus deal as a metaphorical cherry on top. They do not actually have to sacrifice any spells, do they?

>>43852557
It's a matter of identity. Every class should feel different in some way - what better way than modifying the way someone gets their main ability?

It's not difficult to work with and to offset the randomness it has no downtime, unlike other maneuver recovery systems. From a purely mechanical level, it's better than the "spend an action for this" deal.

>>43852557
Legacy, system fans, and it not being objectively bad, just not as good as it was in 3.5

When Bo9S dropped, your maneuver recovery options were: full round action to do nothing (recovering all maneuvers), full attack action (recovering all maneuvers), full round action (recover ONE maneuver), or randomly get new maneuvers for free.

I think you can see why crusader recovery was well liked.

>>43852593
But it wasn't good in 3.5 either. Having no control over what you recover is just shitty design.

>>43852384

The best side-quests are stories within stories, where you hammer in that the the world's still turning while the PCs are adventuring.

Good side-quests have desirable non-monetary rewards. Access to a master blacksmith perhaps, or the affection of a love interest, or even a feast. Of course, dedicate half a session to giving these rewards, so you can force the PCs to interact and roleplay.

>>43852589
>It's not difficult to work with
Like hell it isn't.

>>43852621
I'd argue the point, but that's getting into semantics and anecdotes. Suffice to say I haven't had any problem with it.

>>43851525
>Fighter (myrmidon)

What is this from? I have never seen this fighter archtype.

>>43852583
I put that bit of fluff about giving up spells in so I'd have less work to do in case feedback came in to the effect that Warpaths were too powerful. Never got ANY feedback on them, like most things, so it never got touched one way or the other.

And you're notably wrong about action conflict for base inquisitiors. Judgement and Bane, the inquisitiors two big active abilities are swift actions, and don't create conflict with spellcasting. In fact they take 0 actions to maintain once active and thus don't conflict with litanies either. Whereas boosts would conflict with litanies.

>>43852603

Yeahno. Crusader recovery was one of the most elegant and fun mechanics in 3.5. It was fluffy, powerful, and people vastly overstate how the randomness affects you (seriously, if you're readying all useful maneuvers, you're almost never going to have a shitty hand).

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>there's still no spontaneous druid 9th level caster
>nor prestige classes which boost wildshape

Fuck, I want my master of many forms back

>>43852548
Autocorrect turned cantrip into control.

>>43852701
The thing is, in 3.5, you could ready multiple of the same maneuver. I don't think I'll ever get why that was done away with. Like, seriously, why? What logical reason is there for it?

>>43852618

I guess what I'm saying here is keep side-quests short, from discovery to reward they should be only a session, at most two. A good side-quest is a quick burst of flavor in comparison to a main quest's slow cook.

This also allows you to specialize side quests to utilize every character's skill-set. The martial may be asked to train a peasant levy or duel for the honor of a woman you meet on the road. The spellcaster might be asked to use their spells for entertainment, like Gandalf and his fireworks, ditto on the bard or those with perform.

People will get so much more invested in the campaign if they feel there's more to the world than ancient evils and world-shattering quests.

>>43852480
Given that Cantrips are fucking worthless outside of a few really specific one, it'd never matter. Who cares if you can ping something for 1d3 fire damage? It's literally irrelevant.

>>43852701
This, a thousand times, this. I retrained Extra Granted Maneuver out of my crusader because it was a wasted feat. Path of War has (vastly) more maneuvers readied at a time, since most of the classes have a recovery crippled by IM dependence, which for the mystic increases the randomness somewhat, and I'm not really a fan of *any* of those choices, but the "card draw" recovery mechanic is fantastic, despite the math fix.

>>43852711
No you couldn't.

>>43852711
No you couldn't. You could ready multiple of the same maneuver if and only if you were a multiclass initiator, and then only once per class' readied maneuvers.

>>43852715
thx a lot

Quick /pfg/! i need some random encounters for my players . preferably between CR2-CR5, snowy setting (though terrain varies), and doesn't necessarily have to be combat.

Guys, I'm making a Bladebound Magus NPC
It's not focused on Dex, which feats would you suggest? Is Arcane Strike a good idea?

Beside a fuckzillion pearls of power, which other minor magic items would you suggest?

If anyone interested, it's an human with the following stats (racials and level increase included): 16 14 12 16 10 8
We use first party only

>>43852711
You couldn't, and you couldn't because the entire point of maneuvers and recovery is to prevent spamming one move over and over. Replacing "I full-attack it again" with "I mountain hammer it again" is not much of an improvement. Encounter-based abilities with easy recovery options are not supposed to be a matter of attrition or wearing you down, as with daily abilities that don't recharge.* It's just supposed to avoid spamming the same thing over and over. Which you could do if you could ready the same maneuver multiple times.

* Though, to be fair, I do think Path of War... doesn't get this, at least not as well as Tome of Battle. The larger number of maneuvers readied combined with recovery options crippled by not just being all of them means you *do* get worn down, in ways that I find obnoxious. I get that it was an attempt to pacify attrition-obsessed grognards, but honestly were any of those going to buy the book *anyway*?

Also, obviously, swordsage was kind of an exception.

>>43852730
That's... debatable, and most people disagree that you can do that. I personally agree with you, but it's definitely a minority position.

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>>43852676

Let us have a look at a 4th-level inquisitor (warpath follower) here.

This inquisitor has traded in their 2/day judgment for five maneuvers known (three 1st-level maneuvers and two 2nd-level maneuvers), four maneuvers readied (two granted at the start of each cycle which can be any maneuvers the inquisitor prefers), and two 1st-level stances.

The inquisitor effectively has free rein with their choice of disciplines, so they can mix and match synergistic maneuvers. For their maneuvers readied, they can prepare three strikes and a boost, then pick the strike and the boost at the start of each cycle. Thus, the inquisitor's combat sequence looks something like this:

Round #1: Gain a strike and a boost. Use a strike, maybe with the boost.
Round #2: Gain a strike. Use a strike, maybe with the boost if it still has yet to be used.
Round #3: Gain a strike. Use a strike, maybe with the boost if it STILL has yet to be used.
Round #4: Repeat cycle.

The inquisitor is also gaining free Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus out of this deal, which is rather useful if the inquisitor wanted to use something like a greatsword or a longsword.

On top of this, the inquisitor has spells. Before their Wisdom bonus grants bonus spells, they have three 1st-level spells per day (four known) and one 2nd-level spell per day (two known). The inquisitor's standard actions are already tied up by strikes, so the inquisitor can use those spells for either noncombat utility, pre-combat buffing, or swift action combat utility.

For 1st-level spells, Protection from Evil makes a good pre-combat buff, and Litany of Sloth is a swift action, no-save debuff that shuts down AoOs and defensive casting.

For 2nd-level spells, it is hard to go with Invisibility for sneaking around or preparing for combat, and Detect Thoughts makes for good utility too.

One level later, the inquisitor gains swift action Bane?.

How is the inquisitor NOT getting a better deal?

>>43852860
Bane?
The masked man?

Is there a way to quicken the summoner's summon monster ability? Does the meta magic feat work on it?

>>43852819
Noncombat encounters have a CR?

>>43851312
So /pfg/ pretty much gags DSP's dick, but what about /pfg/'s thoughts on other 3PPs?

LPJ, Super Genius, Kobold and other shit?

>>43852897
Traps are considered encounters. As is a bake-off.

>>43852819
Try helping to psyche someone up for their honor duel - he's trying to impress the girl he loves and get her away from the guy who abuses her, but he needs help thinking tactics, and isn't an awesome fighter in the first place.

>>43852871
I know about that fella
I heard he possesses Powerful Build while being an human, has a mask which is said to be his phylactery, and that he plans to crush the Material Plane with no survivors

He's probably a powerful priest of Rovagug

>>43852906
Rogue Genius Games is good, Drop Dead Studios are good, the others vary wildly. Some are great, some are shit.

>>43852914
Does he have followers?

Do his enemies expect one of them in the wreckage?

>>43852871
Bane is a weapon property, that activates against a specific type (and subtype in some cases) of target, making the weapon enhancement bonus be +2 higher and deal an extra 2d6 damage. As a swift action, Inquisitors can grant their weapons the bane ability and choose whatever type is most convenient at the moment, for up to their inquisitor level in rounds per day.
Of course, outside of that, if you have access to Psionics, Linked Striking does basically the same, against any target you've hit at least once, making it a better choice.

Hourly reminder that a Human warpriest gets 10 bonus feats over 20 levels.

A human Fighter gets 12 bonus feats over 20 levels.

Warpriest also qualifies for all fighter feats.

WHY WOULD YOU PLAY A FIGHTER

>>43852906
>>43852920
I've heard bad fucking shit about LPJ games

>>43852914
no, bane is a paladin of BANE (the creed and even his old holy symbol matches)

>>43852947
Weapon training at this point.

>>43852897
yep, like >>43852913 anon says. looking for random road or town encounters for my party to have, without me needing to hem and haw over them.

(i'm also in the market for interesting NPC ideas, but that's less important right now)

>>43852970
>weapon training
>6th level cleric spells you can cast on yourself as quickened.

>>43852989
well, weapon training does have a bunch of neato stuff coming out for support (batting arrows and spells out of the air with AoOs, bravery to will saves, etc.)

>>43852989
But only Weapon Training leads to the feats qualifiying you for SPELLCUT, anon!

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>>43852906

Dreamscarred Press receives the most publicity here because their writers actually post and entertain questions here.

Drop Dead Studios is known here to a lesser extent, mostly for its Spheres of Power product line. The author of that product, Adam Meyers, never posted here previously, but I happened to know of two people who were freelancing under Mr. Meyers and urged them to tell him to post here.

Adam Meyers indeed post here at their behest, as evidenced here >>43811336, but he has not posted beyond that thread. From what I gather, he was either scared off by /pfg/ (I hope not) or caught up with U.S. Thanksgiving celebrations. (Adam Meyers, if you are still here, I have commentary for you on the thematic coherences and niches of some of the spheres here >>43821038.)

The only other 3pp in the pastebin is Rite Publishing, but only because their most well-known product, Secrets of the Masquerade Reveler, was written by the lauded Mark Seifter.

Kobold Press/Open Design is mostly unknown in these parts, save for the occasional mention of a class from the New Paths Compendium.

Louis Porter Jr. is a highly unprofessional publisher that should be boycotted. You can read of their malpractices here:

www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?2301-What-s-a-Freelance-RPG-Writer-Worth
>Rate/word for new writers: LPJ Design: $0.005* (half a cent)

>The way LPJ Design finds ways to save money in order to make $10K a month is to pay writers half a cent per word. As he says "if you are a first time writer never have sold ANYTHING to ANYONE, sorry you bring no value to my company... You guys sound like the college grad who wants to get paid $50K for just showing up. LOL!" I found myself very uncomfortable with Porter's language; he later said to one writer "You can die from exposure. Just prove to me why I should pay you more? You do that, you get paid better." and to that writer he later said "And there is the problem, you think this is an equal relationship. It isn't."

>>43852989
weapon training.

>>43853014
well, or barbarian levels, or being a dwarf.

though anyone with a feat to burn can gain weapon training.

>>43853037
>LPJ stuff

Wow, what the actual fuck.

>>43852961
Like what?

>>43852819
A herd of panicked mammoths. Snow is difficult terrain, the mammoths are moving fast and there may or may not be suitable cover for everyone.

>>43853074
>The way LPJ Design finds ways to save money in order to make $10K a month is to pay writers half a cent per word. As he says "if you are a first time writer never have sold ANYTHING to ANYONE, sorry you bring no value to my company... You guys sound like the college grad who wants to get paid $50K for just showing up. LOL!" I found myself very uncomfortable with Porter's language; he later said to one writer "You can die from exposure. Just prove to me why I should pay you more? You do that, you get paid better." and to that writer he later said "And there is the problem, you think this is an equal relationship. It isn't."

He's a colossal douchebag, even for colossal douchebags

>>43852913
sounds like a good town event, i'll mark it down (forgot to say this in my previous post)

>>43853076
ooh, nice. and lets me and them ponder over what spooked'em to begin with. much thanks!

>>43852896
No and no.

>>43853125
>what spooked'em to begin with
Could be some hunters, doing the Buffalo Jump, but with mammoths.

>>43853147
you could also have the hunters ask the party for help carving up the kills, at that. Two or three mammoths are a lot of goddamn work.

>>43853147
goodness gracious that's a lot of meat/bone/sinew.

>>43853167
seems appropiatte, yeah.

>>43853183
Another good one might just be helping some kid that got lost in the woods be returned to his/her family after the kid runs into the adventurers.

Of course, if they're terrible RPers, the townsfolk might think they kidnapped the child.

>>43853037
>>43853119
Is this even legal?
Why is he still working?

While i'm trawling for ideas on encounters, anyone got soem ideas on how to mechanically give someone a minor deific blessing (i'm thinking of just giving the player the deific obedience feat for a minor healing goddess in teh setting, but i'm unsure on the mechanics for such)?

>>43853229
seems pretty great, thanks. i'll add it to the pile.

>>43853037
that artwork makes me want to play an occultist that uses different masks for his implement powers

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>>43852962

>>43853254
Oh, hey, another idea - if any of the group are particularly strange (aberrant aegis, for example), have unusual powers (psionics at all in many settings) or are masters of magic, a nearby college of magicians may ask them to speak at a local assembly. If you have a sorcerer in the team, it'd be a great way to involve them and make use of their charisma. this also would work for some awesome warrior type being asked to speak at a local fencing school. A character with an animal companion may be requested to help give a few pointers on how to train a dog.

If they've accomplished something in the area that makes them seem heroic, the best way to make them feel that is by involving them in the lives of the NPCs. That baker over there? He'll run out and give a loaf of bread, free of charge, to the scrawniest looking one, telling them they should eat more. Maybe a woman decides to seduce a handsome man, or a young nobleman decides to try his luck with the heroic babe.

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>>43853328
Trying to build the fabled "archer paladin" to see what it can actually do. The non-smite-evil attacks seem kinda lame, any idea how to fix this?

I also can't into divine spells. Would appreciate tips on that as well.

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>>43853293

You should look into the masquerade reveler, a tier 3 barbarian archetype by Mark Seifter that revolves around wearing a variety of fey-themed masks. (In reality, packages of eidolon evolutions, which makes for a highly versatile barbarian indeed.)

It is, in fact, compatible with the Unchained barbarian, albeit not with Dreamscarred Press's primal disciple.

A pirated copy of such should be present in the pastebin.

>>43853348
(this isnt me, the anon asking for encounters, btw)

>>43853328
i do actually have an arcanist (who is a pretty big gloryhound) so this'd be right up her alley, much thanks!

>>43853348
Unintentional quote. Sorry about that.

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>One player in the group keeps getting sick gear and just received a fucking lesser artifact armor
>Everyone else is running around with +1 or masterwork gear
>The caster took feats for item creation but the GM won't give us enough gold for him to make anything
Ever feel like you're just a supporting character in a campaign?

>>43853372
Hmm... Another encounter in a forested area could be that the party wandered into the realm of an Erlking and/or Hamadryad who is holding a celebration. them being in the area is enough to get them invited, and the party can spend a night or three enjoying the luxury of living it up with the fey. It'd be a good chance to introduce some interesting NPCs, not the least of which could be the ruler themselves. There could even be a druid that's there for the awesome food, the mostly naked women, and the *ahem* completely naked women. He'd be a good focal point for grounding out the expectations of the players, since he'd be able to explain the situation to their mortal minds better than the fey could, if there isn't a nature-y party member already.

Fey really don't see enough use in games, and I despise that fact.

>>43853419
Depends, does it feel like the character is the GMs pet? Because sometimes things just work out in one player's favor purely by coincidence. I played with someone who had at least double the GP of any member of the group, but in their defense the player did shit like challenging a boss-monster to a 1-on-1 duel and requesting the GM not reduce the power level, and then winning by shear luck.

>>43853446
the fey are largely considered evil in this setting (they're basically extradimensional invaders bringing the celts with them due to apocalypse in home plane), so this could be a good way to show the party #notallfey etc.

>>43853419
Happened in last campaign, but did't mind. It was basically the only way to keep the fighter relevant and have the player engaged. I got to be the actual guy who got shit done with an archeologist bard either way.

>>43853419

>tfw you know that feel

What's the point in playing when you're treated like a tool, not a character Especially when the few times you roleplay it's about some bad shit happening to your character or complications with something or other.

>>43853419
Why even still play? DMs who show that kind of favoratism don't deserve players.

>>43853654

To be fair, players who get that kind of treatment often feel very uncomfortable with the attention because they know they're treated as the favorite.

>>43853419
One of my GMs actually had issues writing the story to co-share spotlight, so I was one of the secondaries and asked to roll up one level below the "main character". It was actually a great game, went for about a year and a half

>>43853715
wait what? how does that work?

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>>43852704

This is the only good attempt at a conversion for Master of Many Forms to Pathfinder that I've been able to find, though it could probably use a bit of tweaking still.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Dz9yR-rN_L2ec_ctW2z66qfEtmTnDAbzrXQPg4oiKEE/edit

>Mfw realizing the Master of Many Forms handbook that had a great list of various awesome forms by level is gone because Wizards of the Coast deleted their entire community forum.

>>43853737
I feel awful for that, the community lost basically every 4e handbook for all time.

>>43853737
>>43853752
>not using google docs
Literally why?

>>43853719
Much like a normal one, except that the story events tended to focus more on one guy, his development, and backstory resolution . The other two of us rolled hirelings of his (mine was a pit fighter he saved from a rigged match, the last was a Tiefling rogue he hired), and we leveled up whenever he did so stayed one below.

We all got shine time, just the overarching stuff was about the necromancer

>>43853737
Bro, waybackmachine. Copy the address off the handbook vault and put it into wayback, and you can still access the page. Bam.

>>43853846

It appears to be down at the moment.

>>43853777
I've considered doing something like this where players took turns playing other characters during a characters "arc" and when the arc was finished, the next player got the spotlight.

It would all end with all the "main" characters forming a party and getting shit done. Kinda like Dragon Quest IV.

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>>43853846

I love you.

https://web.archive.org/web/20151027042047/http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/1060931

>>43853895
Could work, especially if the "Backstories" were brief. Also lets everyone get 4-5 backlogged character ideas out of their system if you have that kind of player.

... dangit, now I want to play that one. Would let me try out SO MUCH of the new stuff and playtests...

>>43853932
Cheers, man.

>>43853768
Because guides on forums are a hundred times more accessible and readable than fucking google docs. I hate that the PF community uses those for their handbooks instead of forum posts.

,,,,This is a little late to the party, buuuut...

for the whole vivisectionist/polymath hullabaloo,

Would a special addendum to poly math along the lines of:

if taking the alchemist vivisectionist archetype you'd receive a modified sneak attack along the lines of +5d6sneak attack/+5 alchemy bonus to strike damage be a decent balance point idea?

It just seems a a shame to bring the whole thing out behind the barn to fix something that isn't that bad to begin with.

>>43854120
Why are people getting pissy about sneak attack again?

Can monsters who cast spell as clerics spontaneously convert to cure/inflict spells?

>>43854355
It's strictly superior to bombs for initiators, since SA stacks with maneuvers and bombs don't.

>>43854359
No.

>>43854369
But it's still shit because it's sneak attack.

>>43851447

I feel like you would need like three times as many points as they give you to make a Bloodborne weapon.

Granted, you need like twice as many points as they give you to make a GOOD weapon anyway.

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>>43852673

You can find the fighter (myrmidon) here:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tbBIinA90VQW8eriM0TZTZCbHsSU6cdv7_44J8w564s/edit

In conjunction with either the Lore Warden archetype or the Mutation Warrior archetype, the Myrmidon can arguably push a fighter up to tier 3. It is certainly one way to play a "generic fighting man" whose abilities are purely extraordinary in nature and who is neither a dedicated defender (warder) nor a leader (warlord).

>>43854593
Yo Touhoufag. Have you ever heard of the Races of War, by Frank and K? How exactly do you like it mate?

>>43854593
Can you just stop with the tier shit? You've gotten proven wrong on it numerous times.

Hello there, fellow fa/tg/uys. I have a question: what initiative bonus is optimal?

I'm currently playing an inspiring commander (see link at the bottom) in a low level Pathfinder campain. My character cannot use weapons to fight directly but has other bonus in exchange (slight telekinesy, the ability to use inspiring voice before level 5, etc). In consequence, I'm playing a high-INT support character with low physical stats and no spell. In RP, he's a wandering strategist/tactician.

In short, my GM decided to give me a bonus feat, so I have to choose between +2 to will saves and +4 to initiative rolls. I currently have +1 to will saves and +4 to initiative rolls. What should I choose?

>Inspiring commander: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/archetypes/rite-publishing---cavalier-archetypes/inspiring-commander

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>>43854742

I had played in a Frank and K's Tomes games from January 2014 to December 2014. The setting was Planescape.

My (admittedly very brief) thoughts on the Tomes are here: http://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/43586613/#43588004

It does not help that I had played alongside what is quite possibly the most broken class in all of the Tomes, the monster trainer. (It is TO-tier broken, down to having literally dozens of Wishes by 9th-level.)

I had also played alongside a soldier, which, by 11th-level, trivializes many combat encounters (but only combat encounters) with far more efficiency than any spellslinger, perhaps making it a low tier 2 class.

I have an anecdote for one of the group's more memorable showcases of the power level of Tomes classes here: http://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/42826044/#42827832

I think that tier 3 + Dreamscarred Press + Spheres of Power, if you can cope with the imbalances between the spheres, many spheres being incoherent hodgepodges, the blatant encouragement of one-level-dipping in various classes, the highly ambiguous mechanics in many cases, and the minimal to completely absent playtesting for its upcoming supplements (I sincerely like and appreciate Spheres of Power, but it needs much more polish) Pathfinder makes for the more well-balanced and mechanically sound 3.X-breed D&D game.

>>43854846

Would you classify a fighter (mutation warrior, myrmidon) or a fighter (lore warden, myrmidon) as only high tier 4, then? I personally think that such a myrmidon deserves more credit, seeing how its grit points are actually quite useful, and the new advanced weapon trainings offer it an array of useful options.

>>43854905
Not getting into this discussion, fagbitch. You've ruined enough threads with it, just stop trying.

>>43854938
Dude. Actually 2hufag is right. Lore Warden/Myrmidon with Weapon Master Handbook stuff is tier 3.

Also I think you mix up 2hufag and Buildposter, while both shit up threads they are seperate anons.

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>>43854904
Dumping two artworks of my character while waiting for advice. Thank you in advance!

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>>43854976

>>43848577
Samefagging from last thread, but my main concern is how to go about creating Mythic Trials, since my party wants to go Mythic.

>>43854987

Puzzle bosses are always kinda nice. Y'know, things like a self-mastery trial where you're up against an invincible opponent that counters every attack. The only way to win is to stop fighting.

Shit like that. Trials that force characters to think about things they normally wouldn't do or use their abilities in unusual ways.

>>43854904
TL;DR: +2 to will saves or +4 to initiative? Advices would be great. Thanks already!

>>43854905
I think the monster trainer is supposed to be within a specific pokemon-like setting though? If you put it to that level of power, with homebrew pokemon stuff, then it wouldn't be that overpowered.

I frnakly like the tomes a lot more than 3.5/PF and always try to get it done. It puts me where actual DND heroes should be put at. Yes the Fighter, Barbarian and whatnot are boring as fuck classes that get way too high rolls, but the basic idea is good. Really what people don't really see as the true advantage, that a lot of people in Tome get, are stuff like Alpha metamagic, which powers up lower level spells by making the DC equal to the highiest level spells. So 1th and 2nd level spells get 3rd level spell DC checks against them.

Even in Tome games, the martial classes get bamfed to high hell by casting classes. Because hitting things with swords, no matter how awesome you do it. Is less versatile than even the whole conjuration school itself. Nether the lest the entire wizard package.

Also. You seem to be pretty decently intelligent. You should really stop using "Tiers" M'kai? It is generally a poor assessment of actual power per level. The Bard is pretty much sort of useless all throughout, with their piddly ass buffs. While the Beguiler is amazing at lower levels, simply due to possessing color spray and sleep. Tiers are just not very useful in the assessment of power, nor are they an indicator of quality. The Warpriest and Hunter classes are fucking awfully designed. Versatility is worthless if you have a grab-bag of shit that equals to absolutely nothing. Power, and power alone is what matters.

I have no idea why people think "Tier 3 is teh best. Any class that isn't Tier 3 is utter shitballs, unless you're a super cool omega badass BARBARIAN! URHMUGAD! TOTS COOL" fetish that everyone has.

>>43855065
I'd get +4 to initiative, and go for the alpha strike.

>>43855077
What is the alpha strike? I'm not finding it on google. Also, my character cannot use weapons directly, so, if it is something like Power Attack, it's useless to me, sadly

>>43855123

Alpha strike is just what people call attacking first (or at least before your opponents) in combat.

>>43855123
Oh, I get it, you mean playing first, yea. But isn't +8 initiative too much at level 2? Just asking, I'm pretty newbie

>>43855147
i thought alpha striking was "attack with literally everything you have at once" (or nova/burst/etc), spoken by that mech boardgame's fanbase.

>>43855123
A term that dates at least as far back as Battletech, referring to using maximum offensive power (heatsinks be damned) usually in the form of firing all weapons simultaneously.

After all; the less remains of the enemy, the safer you get!

>>43855169

Well technically it's a navy term invented during the Vietnam War to describe a bunch of planes that go attack at the same time. It's generally used in my social circles to denote "hitting first and hitting fast".

>>43855152
+8 initiative means you're +4 to +5 higher than Dex-based enemies, and very likely to win against everything else. Securing a first strike is hugely important at low levels, because everything does so much damage relative to your and their HP.

>>43855169
>>43855194
eyy

>>43855152
There's no such thing as "too much" initiative, especially if your main combat role is buffing the rest of the party or other gig that doesn't require waiting for others to go first.

>>43855169
>>43855194
>>43855210
It's actually both. EVERYTHING you have fires EVERYTHING it has.

If that goes tits up and doesn't devastate the other side though, you're now the proud owner of a bunch of overheating bricks caught in the open with big fat target signs on them.

>>43855220
>>43855206
>>43855194
Thank very much, I'll go for the initiative!

>>43855067
Except Bards aren't useless? Hell using beguiler which is a 3.5 class as an example only shows how little you know.

>People bitch about 2hu fag
>People discuss his ideas and beliefs like they hold water

Why bother acting like you hate him when you treat his opinions with such reverence?

>>43855261
"Roleplayers" (of the stormwind fallacy kind) hate this, but:
"Can I at least make back my points" is a great way of making combat projections.

If you're a damage dealer, you really only have 'one' job: reduce the number of assholes that get a turn to hurt your buddies with.

The faster you go, the more likely you can prevent something from getting its turn. Every dead Barbarian is one less murder-rage full-attack against your friends. Every dead Wizard is one less SoL against one or all of you. Every dead kobold is one less sling-stone between the eyes of your best friend. The more you can kill, and the faster you can kill them, the better. You literally prevent bad-touches, damage and other consequences by eliminating them at the source.

>>43855325

Because he's an asshole but oftentimes a correct asshole.

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>>43854938

A 7th-level fighter (mutation warrior, myrmidon) has:
- d10 HD.
- Full BAB.
- 4 + Intelligence modifier skill points per level.
- A weak point in only one good saving throw and Bravery, but various saving throw counters can help patch that.
- Two bonus combat feats, which can be used to fund taking Advanced Weapon Training.
- Weapon training +1.
- A mutagen as a 7th-level alchemists.
- 7 minutes of (Ex) flight as the fly spell per day, which can be broken up.
- Wisdom-based grit points and a variety of legitimately useful ways to spend it.
- Wisdom-based initiating with eight maneuvers known, four maneuvers known, two stances, and up to 3rd-level maneuvers.

This is probably not of the same overall power and versatility of, say, a warder (Zweihander Sentinel), but I can certainly see why it could be slotted into tier 3.

>>43855067

Do you come from the Gaming Den?

The monster tamer had the ability to capture decidedly non-Pokémon monsters even when it was still called the "Pokémaster." The monster type list has not changed since then, and that is why it is TO-level broken, able to capture monsters like efreet, modron hierarchs, and ursinals and constantly recharge their Wish SLAs and higher-level-than-CR spellcasting.

The metamagic and spell DC changes are not exactly "official." They are merely Kaelik's house rules. Some of them are sound (fixing Combat School); others are not (buffing metamagic and spell DCs).

I explicitly mentioned that the Tomes classes needed more noncombat utility in the post I had linked you. Classes like the soulborn and the soldier can destroy combat encounters, but they are notably less capable outside of a scuffle (although they can still achieve some noteworthy tricks, such as constant antimagic).

I use tiers as a convenient measure of two things:
1. Optimization ceiling.
2. Ability to, once ratched up to that optimization ceiling, affect both combat and noncombat challenges.

(Continued.)

>>43855333

So he's an indispensable member of the generals now because his opinions and material matter.

>>43855334
Again, stop. Nobody wants to discuss it with you or buildposter. Stop pushing your autistic need to be wrong on the thread.

>>43855318
I know more about 3.5 than Pathfinder. I always found that the bard performs rather weakly in comparison to classes that does things that it does. Considering that I'd rather play a cleric, and solidify myself as the most generalist class from the get go, rather than sink a bunch of class skills on various performances that reduce my actual skills known down to like 3 or 4.

PF makes the performances useful, but takes away the lingering effect and slaps it onto a feat for their various buffs. The fact that it's a +1 buff, also makes me rather weary of the actual power that the class has for it. The cleric, with the right domains, is super versatile. The bard on the main-hand doesn't even have color spray, web, stinking cloud. While I could get Stinking Cloud on my cleric rather easily by just going over to a Fire subdomain and get say the madness domain. Buffs weaker than a cleric, unless you're talking about a self-buffing Dervish Dancer. Which fights better than say a fighter cleric, due to the fact that they can essentially haste themselves super fucking easily at level 5.

Bards on the whole are also rather annoying to RP with. Most obnoxious players I know are either barbarians or bards.

>>43855358
Holy shit, stop being so butthurt. No-one is acting like he's indispensable or treating him with reverence or any other bullshit you're spewing. But he does have solid handle of the mechanics and since mechanics are what we spend most of our time discussing, that's more relevant than people like you who throw a bitchfit because he's avatarfagging.

>>43855401
We've had vastly different experiences then, worst players for me have been barbarian or rogue. The buffs scale too and there's lots of spell buffs that go on top of that to make it even better.

>>43855401
I think you're not quite realizing just how powerful the Cleric is. Of COURSE it's going to be better than the Bard, which is absolutely frustrating because the Cleric is better than so many other classes. The bard is a force-multiplier that can keep everyone dealing high damage, keeping them alive, and keeping foes from even being able to hit their friends. And depending on the build, the Bard can even become a satisfying damager themselves.

TLDR: Don't compare the cleric and the bard, they're not in the same league as one-another and it's an unfair comparison.

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>>43855334

Versatility is actually fairly important when it comes to influencing both combat and noncombat.

In combat by the mid-levels, a character needs to be versatile (this does not necessarily mean "able to select from dozens and dozens of options with standard actions," but rather, "able to adequately respond to a variety of challenges) because there are just too many monsters that have ways to reliably ruin your day and shut down one-trick ponies.

Outside of combat by the mid-levels, versatility is also important because in the magical land of D&D, the challenges that a mid-level party can be pitted against ofttimes demand solutions that require multiple skills and noncombat abilities beyond skills, such as noncombat utility magic.

Tiers measure overall power times versatility, which makes them a reasonably useful benchmark. Perhaps the most notable aberration in the tiers is tier 2: they have the widest gap between optimization ceiling and optimization floor out of all of the tiers, they only really become truly *powerful* by 10th-level or so, and their versatility is notably less than that of tier 3s. You have to make an effort to make, say, a sorcerer hit that tier's optimization ceiling and affect the story much more than a tier 3 character, and that is all going to come from raw power rather than versatility. Well, unless you consider the sheer variety that can come from Planar Bindings "versatility."

I call the soldier "low tier 2" for Frank and K's Tomes because, through sheer power, it can be optimized to trivialize even "impossible" combat encounters through a very high degree of power. Like most other tier 2 classes though, it has a very wide gap between optimization floor and optimization ceiling.

I do agree with you that /pfg/'s current tier list needs plenty of work. In particular...

(Continued.)

>>43855444
Actually last game I was in it was the 2edgy ninja and the sorcerer crapping on people's fun.

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>start looking through my idea folder for my generic "adventurer/monster hunter guild" campaign idea
>mostly a few low level, generic encounters
>start looking at the "totally unique original content, donut steel" parts
>party must investigate why, and then ward off, a flock of harpies that are dead set on harassing a hobbit village, that they find out has kestrals in it.
>A wizard has been causing problems for local farmers with his magical experiments, and needs help putting down some of the experiments that went haywire
>A local alchemist's daughter was kidnapped recently, and the party has to rescue her. In doing so, they find out that her kidnappers took her because she's actually not even a living creature, just a homunculus. The real daughter has been dead for years.
>There are spooky happenings and lots of monster attacks in a forest, and when the party goes to investigate the source, they find a shrine dedicated to a minor trickster spirit who's been unable to keep the monster population in check. He also mistakes a party member for a long-since deceased friend.
>The party needs to help a chef with the irrational need to experiment with new and increasingly ingredients. Now go git, those "plants" won't harvest themselves!

I have so many dumb ideas that I still can't help but like.

I have a quick question regarding tiers. Specifically, the tier of a Great Old One worshipping Oracle. There is a feat called Dreamed Secrets that allows Divine Spellcasters of level 7 or higher to cast Arcane Spells at the potential risk of 1d2 WIS damage. At high levels, wouldn't this almost exclusively be a benifit, as the save would be easy to pass, and even if one does fail, they can cast Lesser Restoration to heal the damage? My main reasoning is that it creates one of the most versatile casters in the game, could someone explain to me why this wouldn't increase an Oracle's tier? http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dreamed-secrets

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>>43855506

In particular, the Advanced Class Guide classes and the Occult Adventures classes need far more scrutiny rather than just dumping the ones with 6th-level casting into tier 3, the ones with 4th-level casting into tier 4, and similar "eyeballings."

As you say, the hunter and the warpriest are arguably on the weaker side for 6th-level spellcasters. The druid and ranger spell lists are not that good, and an animal companion is not especially powerful, particularly considering that it costs only two feats to acquire a full progression animal companion. The warpriest has a poor chassis with only 3/4 BAB and 2 + Intelligence modifier skill points, and I do not think most of the blessings' standard actions are actually worth using.

Some archetypes in the tier list pastebin arbitrarily get pushed up to tier 2 for little good reason; the magus (hexcrafter) and the inquisitor (monster tactician) are certainly very powerful, but they are not exactly casting spells like Teleport and Plane Shift by 10th-level, so they do not deserve the tier 2 slot.

Back to your point about beguilers in 3.5, it is true that tiers are on very shaky ground at low levels. It is certainly very true that the 3.5 beguiler has a lower optimization ceiling than the 3.5 sorcerer, however, and that is why the beguiler is tier 3 while the sorcerer is tier 2. As is usually the case, however, the beguiler is considerably more versatile, and its optimization floor is *much* higher than the sorcerer's.

If you are referring to the 3.5 bard, the usual Words of Creation/Dragonfire Inspiration/Song of the Heart/Badge of Valor/Vest of Legends easily vindicates the bard as a force multiplier. If you are referring to the Pathfinder bard, its Inspire Courage is not what it used to be, but its skill usage is excellent (Versatile Performer, Bardic Knowledge, Pageant of the Peacock), its spells are solid, and many of the archetyped performances can be really quite strong.

>>43855401
>A tier 1 class consistently outperforms a tier 3 class

...you don't say

>>43855596
There's always the Doc Frankenstein option

It's a fun variant on 'wizard needs help with haywire experiment'

>>43855596

Whatever happened to a simple werewolf hunt or dragonslaying?

>>43855444
Rogues and Paladins, in my experience are just rather lackluster roleplayers who don't really seem to do much.

>>43855493
I do realize how powerful clerics are. I unno how it's insufferable though? I'd always imagine the Bard to be very capable of controlling the battle-field than a buffer anyways, due to how a lot of song-based abilities in characters outside of DND lends itself well more towards hypnotism either way. Not that buffing is something that a bard shouldn't be good at, but it's focus on that and as lackluster as it is at it's main goal is disappointing. If the bard was a full caster with options loaded with various controlling spells based on the mind, and with it's BAB, HD and Skills. Then it'd be worthwhile. Maybe it'd still be weaker compared to a controller wizard, but having effects that are similar to Stinking Cloud, Dazing Fireballs would make the Bard generally pretty worthwhile.

>>43855334
I'm nobody important. I visit the Den and post, but I'm not a major player.

I'm not going to deny the fact that having a massive cache of super high-stats is a poor way of balance. Generally this is felt with the Soulborn (which is rather meh I guess?) to the soldier. Which is where I believe a fighting class should be around. They both have rather damn high saving throws though, thanks to their abilities. Though I'd always imagine that many viable beatsticks should have pretty damn high universal saving throws to be worthwhile in the first place, so eh. I have no idea what sort of monsters that you were fighting, and in my experience the solidier is a viable character. One with some really high defenses rather natively. However I'm not going to say that there isn't some trap options, or that it's optimal in all cases. In my particular build, I felt like I was performing sub-optimally, but I built that soldier in particular, as one that takes advantage of the Bugbear stance. I'm more of a fan of how it does it's Maneuvers and Stances though.

>>43855665

It's not fun when a player intentionally outperforms everyone else though, that's breaking Rule 0 of tabletop.

That rule being "dont be an asshole and ruin everyone's fun.

>>43855604
It's only two spells daily, both of which must be lower than your highest level spells. Nothing like pre-nerf paragon surge or the versatility of true prepared casters. And while just taking the damage and healing it later is acceptable in non-combat situations, that's still a wasted standard action for most spells.

It's a great feat, but I don't think it's worth +tier by itself. Maybe if you're already pushing the limits of t2 with human favored class bonus and other tricks to get extra spells known.

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>>43855401

The cleric is a tier 1 class, so it obviously has a higher optimization ceiling that will certainly be noticeable by the mid-levels.

The Pathfinder bard's spell list is truly quite serviceable. It has Silent Image and Sleep at 1st-level, Glitterdust and Hold Person at 2nd-level, and various discounts on mind control spells like Suggestion, Charm Monster, and Dominate Monster. You *will* run out of spells as a bard and will have to join the martials in attacking sooner or later (unless you are, say, a Sound Striker or a Chelish Diva), but while you are casting spells, you almost certainly will not be wanting for battlefield control.

>>43855604

I would say that that could push up an oracle to low tier 1 in conjunction with the more solid mysteries like Lore or Lunar and the human favored class bonus. (I really do not think that one of those mysteries alone is enough to push the oracle to tier 2. High tier 2, most certainly, but hyper-flexible tier 1, no.)

Do bear in mind that the Will save is not guaranteed for an oracle (a class with Wisdom as a virtually designated dump score), so you will want to save that for noncombat utility spells.

>>43855424

I had only truly begun to examine Pathfinder's mechanics only a month or two ago, and out of necessity due to it being one of my only available options for games. (I can say with candor that I actually hate the system.)

My only real areas of expertise are Spheres of Power, and to a lesser extent, psychic armories. Everything else, I am learning about week by week.

>>43855742
There should also be a rule, that you shouldn't run totally optimized characters, because dealing with inept characters who can't do anything. No matter how good the "roleplaying" is just as insufferable as dealing with a character who solves everything.

>>43855730
Continuing on, I'd say that I generally enjoy where the soldier is. Despite my rather harsh ineptitude of the current build I was using. I know for a fact that I could improve on it, so my experience there shouldn't be the be-all to it's power. However, I just had more fun playing and looking over the soldier. With it's easy to understand stances and maneuvers that are versatile and worthwhile. Pow on the hand, largely just seems to have a bunch of damage dealing buffs that makes it equal to the power of a buffing cleric. Any grappler in PF is fucked over because of the fact that CMD scales so fucking high. There is also quite a bit of redundancy with all the maneuvers that focuses on uses skill checks to by-pass DCs and whatnot. The soldier just has less crap that you have to wade through. Even if that crap isn't particularly bad. There is just less option paralysis.

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>>43855701
Most of that falls under "somewhat generic mid-level encounters", IMO. Got plenty of straight up "go murder the fuck out of this monster causing problems" spread around, as any good monster hunting campaign should. That said, I was writing up stuff with my friends in mind, and they seem to be the kind of people who would enjoy having some fluffier, sillier, non-"kill everything and call it a day" encounters. They've also got some weird schedules, so I was trying to come up with relatively short, episodic encounters instead of things that would need more than maybe 3 sessions to resolve.

>mfw I cannot get an answer on whether or not they actually would want to try any TTRPG at all, let alone pathfinder
>mfw this is really just me daydreaming and sperging out in my free time.

>>43855848
>There should also be a rule, that you shouldn't run totally optimized characters, because dealing with inept characters who can't do anything. No matter how good the "roleplaying" is just as insufferable as dealing with a character who solves everything.

It's more nuanced than that: some people LIKE playing games where EVERYONE is highly optimized. But you shouldn't play characters that are significantly more optimized than the others at the table.

>>43855847
I just demand a bit more on the controlling front. Bards should at least make themselves stand out more by making them comparable to controller wizards in the battle field.

What system do you prefer? By the way.

On the topic of Soldier that I forgot. I always felt that it did weeaboo fightin' magic in a way that isn't overtly weeaboo. The options that they have a generally more powerful, and versatile compared to the large sack of dice that you'd throw in PoW. You only really need like one maneuver that does extra damage. There is just a lot of wheat that is cut from the shaft. Even if it might be a bit ahead of the power curve later on. Though late DnD is kind of a clusterfuck anyways. So expecting balance is generally difficult even for Tome.

I just like me some Tome games. Some of the classes might not be designed the best, but it does have a solid foundation of classes to pick from. Even if the old caster-stand byes are probably better in the long haul.

>>43852001
>An actual recovery mechanic
>The best recovery mechanic in PoW for continually hitting things with maneuvers without having to stop
>A stronger version of Crusader recovery, which was already strong and pretty fun

>>43856033
Maybe, though in some groups there just never seems to be a case where any of my characters seems to have any control over their fates, or could really manipulate things outside of what the DM decides is leeway enough. At a certain point, I just desire a good amount of powers and abilities that are generally markedly above the rest, using a system that isn't particularly ass. I have no desire to play Exalted, because I absolutely loathe the storyteller game system with it's vague rules that hampers initiative rather than bolsters it. A strong foundation of rules is necessary for a player to feel like they have some control over their character and their lives. I simply have no desire to be an actor in a DM's play. That is why I generally like d20, if only because it seems to follow that philosophy enough, and I can generally point out rules, to get a bit of an edge where a more controlling DM would have to be, at least a bit more sly.

Playing a game of "mother my I" is not what I want to do. Optimized characters, not even at a particularly high sealing, is necessary to retain player autonomy.

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>>43855730
>>43855848

There are a few things about the Tomes' soldier that should be noted.

1. It is very casually-written, and is practically in an "alpha version" state.

2. The maneuvers are unclear about how they *really* work with regards to using two weapons and the Two-Weapon Fighting feat despite the attempt at clarifying such.

3. The true duration of stances is unclear. This is quite important for stances such as Troll.

4. Some class features are practically nonfunctional. Leader of Men hands out a feat based on BAB + Cha on a 3/4 BAB and Cha-dumped class, Meet Interesting People applies only to raw Cha checks, and Logistics Master is not grounded on any rules at all. The Slaad and Eladrin stances are unusable too.

5. The soldier is a *very* MAD class, but still with a high optimization ceiling worthy of low tier 2 despite that. This means that the more generous a game is with its point-buy, the more powerful a soldier is. High point-buy games result in terrifying soldiers.

6. Boots Keep Walking (Planar Champion) is extremely useful for essentially no cost in a planar adventure game.

7. It is at 11th-level when a soldier becomes superpowered. Hydra Strike generates a humongous amount of attacks (especially with two finesseable weapons and the Two-Weapon Fighting feat).

8. At 12th-level, Fire Giant stance multiplies a soldier's damage output considerably due to its RAW wording, although a soldier will have to snag fire immunity.

9. At 13th-level, a soldier essentially has an (Ex) Disintegrate at-will outside of combat thanks to Doom Tunnel.

10. At 16th-level, Storm Giant stance is Fire Giant stance+++.

11. At 17th-level, World-Slaying Strike and Storm Giant stance combine to let a soldier one-shot *everything* in line of sight with a standard action, at-will. Perfectly par for the course at this level, of course,.

12. While the stances are somewhat novel, the maneuvers are primitive, since they are nothing more than a slew of at-will abilities.

>>43856170
What? Where the hell is this class?

>>43856213
http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=50949

I mostly use the version that is on the Tome 0.7 though. Which is located here as "How Things Out to Be:The Tomes Compiled" which adds some of the non main tome stuff. http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=50239

The PDF also contains the Soulborn. Which I'll wont bother to defend really.

>>43856153

You're sounding dangerously close to the type of person that would get upset my character can convince a craftsman to lower their price for a commission without a single diplomacy roll.

>>43856250
Is it at all balanced for actual play? Is it even made well enough to be able to be played?

>>43856281
I played it. I generally like playing it more than 3.5 and PF. Product of Infernal Daliance (which isn't even a scaling feat) should be fucking banned though.

>>43856280
You sound like the sort of person that would demand that you were important to the plot, despite being a fighter in a party of players playing good classes. I wonder, which is worse. Being treated as valuable as you actually are, or making an already rather shoddily worded skill absolutely worthless.

>>43852896
The elf racial trait for summoner lets them knock a round off the 'cast' time, if I recall correctly. You may wish to check.

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>>43856170

Addendum to #7: Also at 11th-level, the soldier receives Blade Rush, which is *the* answer to groups.

>>43856066

If you would like a control-dedicated bard, look into the Chelish diva.

http://www.archivesofnethys.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Bard%20Chelish%20Diva

As a standard action, an 8th-level Chelish diva can inflict frightened (no save) on an enemy for what is effectively 1d4+1 rounds.

I use Strike! as my preferred system nowadays. I discuss it here: >>43840900

You would think that the soldier is best off imposing effects other than damage. Before 11th level, this is true. Once that point is reached, however, the soldier is absolutely geared towards killing everything with Hydra Strike and Blade Rush (I had almost forgotten about that; that is another reason why 11th level is such a paradigm shift for the soldier), using stances to multiply damage and to power through the many supernatural and magical effects that could be hurled at the soldier.

The soldier devolves into yet another killer-through-damage at that point, but at least the soldier does so with style and versatility.

>>43856281

The Tomes 3.5 classes were balanced against themselves and against a very vague notion of "optimized full casters" (not "optimized full casters with X set of 3.5 supplements available," but just that highly nebulous notion). They are not suited for use in Pathfinder, let alone alongside tier 3 Pathfinder classes.

>>43856311

The [fiend] feats were created before scaling feats were first introduced in Races of War. Product of Infernal Dalliance is nowhere as bad as Product of Celestial Dalliance, which can grant things such as Greater Teleport at 1st-level or an angel's protective aura (including the Lesser Globe of Invulnerability), on top of various resistances and immunities.

Granted, Product of Infernal Dalliance grants the resistances and immunities too, but the miscellaneous effects are nowhere as potent.

>>43856281
Tomes are balanced around tier 1 and 2, as far as I recall. I'm not a fan (and Frank and K themselves are assholes about it. Like a combination of every negative stereotype about powergamers, with none of the positives).

>>43856371
What about a high-power Pathfinder gestalt game with 32pb as the only martial in the party of a Sorc/Druid and some sort of castery fear paladin?

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>>43856401

Pathfinder 32-point buy will result in a *very* powerful soldier. Gestalt will also mitigate its weakness of 3/4 BAB and two poor saving throws.

If one of your party members is a sorcerer|druid, of all things, it is quite possible that they are not quite seizing the optimization ceilings of tiers 1 and 2. Consequently, an optimized, gestalt soldier|X may be too powerful, especially once the party attains 11th-level.

>>43856449
What about running one non-gestalt, alongside the gestalt casters?

You got any prismrivers to avatarfag with? That'd be neat.

>>43856449
We'd be at level 5 to start off. What even IS product of infernal dalliance? I don't see it.

>>43856449
As the sorc/druid, I'm taking Empyreal bloodline to make my class features Wisdom-based, but I do plan on doing mostly blasting and crafting, so it's true that I don't plan on reaching the optimization ceiling.

>>43856449
The tomes were based off of 3.5, not Pathfinder. Don't fucking make one.

Besides. The fact that the Soldier has poor BAB is mitigated by secrets of battle (Add INT to attack modifier that caps per level of soldier. So a soldier with 18 intelligence at level 3, would have a +3 to their attack bonus.) without any of the mitigation factors. Like the fact that the scaling feats progress more slowly, and the fact that you can't really make use of grappling, trips and whatnot due to the fact that most monsters with more BAB than you will get the "Edge" on you. (A +4 bonus on all regular ass maneuvers such as grappling). The soldier would be really fucking good, but arguably too good in a system that doesn't have the changes to BAB that the Tomes have. Making it a viable resource in itself.

>>43856514
>The tomes were based off of 3.5, not Pathfinder. Don't fucking make one.

That doesn't really make much of a different. It's a relatively simple conversion, and 3.p+3pp is the best way to play anyway.

>>43856556
That is more or less 2nd to the tomes. The fact that 3.p+3pp is so rare is frustrating.

>>43856570
I'm so glad my group is 3.p+3pp (based in 3.5 with PF's skill system, minus Fly. We don't like how combat maneuver math fails to work and how combat maneuver feats got split into chains).

>>43856590
Good for you. Granted we use PF skills and maneuvers, but pretty much everyone at least dips into PoW stuff in my wednesday game.

>>43856610

Nice. What sort of weirdass multiclass builds do you have? 3.p+PoW tends to lend itself to that, and it's hilarious.

>>43854547
it's still better than what the base alchemist has, and pretty much everything else they get is free candy too, too the point that you'd have been stupid not to take vivisectionist with polymorph. and since that is a reasonable definition of overpowered ("you'd always pick it over other options") it's deserving of nerfs.

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>>43856483
>>43856492

I would not know just how much your fellow players will be optimizing. I would advise playing it safe and optimizing a Pathfinder tier 3 classes instead, be they from Paizo or Dreamscarred, because the soldier simply was not made for Pathfinder.

If you insist on playing a soldier, one interesting Dreamscarred/Tomes gestalt build I can think of would be a soulknife (living legend)|soldier. That should net you a variety of combat and noncombat abilities, an Intelligence focus, d10 HD, full BAB, and all good saving throws.

Product of Infernal Dalliance can be found here:
http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Product_of_Infernal_Dalliance_%283.5e_Feat%29

Its much more overtuned heavenly counterpart can be found in the Tomes PDF.

>>43856505

The Empyreal bloodline is a good call for a sorcerer|druid. That had wholly metaphorically slipped my mind.

You may as well optimize for blasting if that is what you want to emphasize. Have you considered the usual Draconic/Orc crossblood with an oracle of Nature on the other gestalt side? That would be of roughly the same flavor, only with a Charisma-based build.

>>43856623
The only weird multiclass that we have is a monk/warder. I myself just play an archer cleric using the http://mcarchetype.wikispaces.com/Battle+Adept from this page. Just to get in a bit more feats, that is justifiable compared to a crusader cleric.

Everyone else is just rather flat straight classes though. The least effectual character is probably the Spell-less Ranger variant dude who sinks feats into Silver Crane, or maybe the Half-Orc beastmaster http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/tripod-machine/beastmaster who is focused on getting as many animal companions and whatnot that he can possibly get his hands on. Without getting any items for them, and no spells to buff them up.

Oh well. Not everything is perfect. Solid RPing goes on though, with all of our characters being memorable in some fashion.

>>43856705

>Spellless ranger
I am so sorry. Glad the game's going well though, solid RP is the most important thing anyway.

Ranger's one of my favorite classes in 3.5, mostly because if you heavily use its ACFs and options, you can get something that's just as "platonic ideal of T3" as the 3.5 bard is. Base ranger is awful though.

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>>43856514
>>43856695

To add to these points, even at levels 5-10, one thing that the soldier brings to the table that Pathfinder was simply never meant to handle is the Executioner maneuver.

A 5th-level soldier can, at-will, make an attack (that has a very high chance of landing due to the soldier's inherent accuracy) that forces a Fortitude save against death. The saving throw is Constitution-based. With Pathfinder 32 point buy and Ability Focus, you will be looking at many instantly killed enemies.

I would advise looking into a Paizo or Dreamscarred tier 3 weapon-inclined class instead.

>>43856695
I had, but I usually find myself doing pure Charisma-based casters like oracles and sorcerers, so I wanted to try and make myself do something else for once. The orc bloodline would be somewhat odd since orcs don't exist in the setting, but that's easily refluffed. Since the game hasn't started yet, I may just end up making two versions of the build, one with druid|sorcerer and sorcerer|oracle. Oracles are my favorite full-casting class with how you can actually customize them, I have to admit.

>>43856783
I just want to check here, but you do realize that like 95% of all combat characters are more than capable of killing any enemy of a CR equal to their level, or maybe even 2-3 higher or more, in one turn, right?

Like, that this is a thing that any competently built character can do?

>>43856826

If you optimize hard enough and have a source of pounce, sure. If you can't get to full attack them within that one round, it doesn't count. I generally try to shoot for 2-rounding things, myself.

>>43856783
The Executioner maneuver is not an at-will ability though? It's part of a standard melee attack action.

>>43856872
... Are you saying that it's got a limit, or that standard attacks aren't at-will abilities?

>>43856783
Fort saves tend to be every monster's highest save though.

>>43856349

Someone sounds butthurt their character would have as much plot value in a campaign as the fighter.

>>43856852
Path of War, Archers, optimized blasters.

>>43856962

Okay. That's not 95% of martials. It's also only the pouncecharging full attack PoW and very low level PoW that does that.

>spells and powers from the Evocation/Psychokinesis schools, upon failing a SR check simply treat the creatures SR as an elemental resistance as opposed to straight up fizzling
How's this for a houserule?

>>43856973

Admittedly pretty much the only martials that don't have a strong incentive to go archery for maximum damage are NuMonks, Brawlers, Barbarians, and Cavaliers, all of whom have a way to do massive damage on a charge or some pounce-like abilitity anyway.

>>43856994

I like it.

>>43856973
But that's wrong, though. Archers, pouncing barbarians, soulknifes, anything from Path of War, Cavaliers, TWF, certain Rogue builds, any optimized blaster, a 2h Fighter, that one Druid build that turns into an ooze... There's quite a few.

>>43857023
I thought TWF was kind of bad though

>>43857059
Non-PoW TWF is generally bad, though there's a few ways to mitigate it.

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>>43856826

It generally takes more investment than "high Constitution in a 32-point buy game, Ability Focus, done" to reliably take out such monsters, however.

A 5th-level soldier would have standard action attacks that carry Executioner, applying the usual damage on a hit and the Fortitude-save-or-die on top of that. That is very little investment for a very high payoff.

A 7th-level soldier gains Lingering Strike, an at-will standard action attack that deals double damage and, for all intents and purposes, shuts down all spells and SLAs. That is a fairly good substitute for Pounce.

>>43856903

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1E2-s8weiulPoBQjdI05LBzOUToyoZIdSsLKxHAvf8F8/edit#gid=3

The mean Fortitude for CR 6 is +7.9. That is hardly unreasonable for a soldier in a 32-point buy game to go through with high Constitution and Ability Focus.

The mean AC for CR 6 is 19.0, and the mean HP is 67.7.

>>43856962

It is worth noting about Path of War that Broken Blade, Primal Fury, and Thrashing Dragon are all slated for errata.

>>43857114
Zenith Strike line. Done. That was hard.

>>43857114
Tome stuff seems poorly balanced

>>43857242
It is balanced around optimized casters, outright. It's terrible to use in most games.

Just came from my weekly session of Rise of the Runelords as a GM and by Gary Gygax's beard it was painful.
>Party occultist uses mind's eye for explore the Seven's Sawmill.
>Witness a sacrifice made in the name of the Norgorber.
>Instead of making a plan for assault the sawmill asap, they decide to go back to the tavern.
>They expend the next day asking the local churches of Pharasma, Iomedae and the like for help.

They were scare shitless from 13 cultist. Fuck man, since when players had become so coward!

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>>43857208

Rising Zenith Strike is not at-will and does not completely shut down spells and SLAs. It is also incompatible with Power Attack as of ErrantX's ruling. It is very accurate, yes, but so is a Tome soldier.

>>43857242

Please see >>43856371:
>The Tomes 3.5 classes were balanced against themselves and against a very vague notion of "optimized full casters" (not "optimized full casters with X set of 3.5 supplements available," but just that highly nebulous notion). They are not suited for use in Pathfinder, let alone alongside tier 3 Pathfinder classes.

I have little idea why >>43856401 insists on playing a soldier in a 3.5 game when various tier 3 weapon-using classes exist.

>>43856973
You could also tack 10,500 onto your armor and craft baseline intelligent armor that flies at 30.

Now you're effectively getting an extra move action each turn, and you have permanent flight.

Attainable by 6 or 7.

>>43857319

Skill check substitutions were noted to work with Power Attack by applying the penalty to the skill check in the FAQ, iirc. Rising Zenith Strike is very very good.

Honestly though, I expect pretty much all of PoW 1 to be hit with various nerfs, buffs, and tweaks, just like all the disciplines in PoW Expanded did as they finished the playtest.

>>43857319
You probably have little idea of why because you're apparently too autistic to realize that not everyone intimately knows your random ass third party content for 3.5, and that at a glance it's "Oh, hey, PF/3.5 content in the PF/3.5 thread. I wonder if this is usable?"

>>43857347
What's its strength score? It's not gonna be able to lift you. It can fly, but only alone.

>>43857370
Oh? That's not my understanding of it. If you're right I've been having rules-illegal armor on all my martials for 5 years. Lemme double check.

So if I'm playing a 2nd-level paladin that (independent of paladin-ness) worships a deity of Sun, Community, Nobility, Travel, and Trickery, what suggestions do you offer for multiclassing/gestalt, /pfg/? The character's rolled, six months ago statline after race is 14 10 16 12 17 16, and 3pp is allowed within reason (such that most DSP stuff gets a pass).

The rest of the party is, at the moment, a void prophet zealot (focused on THP and damage soaking), a homebrew alternate-class-bard, a soulbolt, and a paladin devoted to smacking shapeshifters (a category that my character falls under).

Of particular note is that due to race, the character receives a bonus to practically everything if a creature fails a save against mind-affecting or enchantment effects they produce (with a round duration of 1, or the level of the spell if it's a spell).

Reminder to purchase a physical copy of Bestiary 5

It's fucking great

>>43857388
"Item can fly, as per the spell, at a speed of 30 feet"

From the list here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/intelligent-items

It can fly. It does not grant you a fly speed. It's so the item can be mobile on its own.

>>43857318
I get this problem a lot in my games.

Remember that Ironbriar is really powerful in Magnimar so none of the churchs will be doing anything once he gets wind of it and bogs them down in political garbage.

Also, if the players insist on bringing in outside help, make sure they are aware that their XP will be much less and any treasure will also be divided by their new allies. In fact, they may just cut the players out entirely, take care of the sawmill an dfail to investigate any further, leaving Ironbriar in control, since he knows they are coming.

In fact, just have the churchs go and find nothing since Ironbriar had the cult bug out. Now the churchs think the players are screw ups and the players now have to search the whole city for the cult which is now on high alert.

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>>43857352

http://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/42396009/#42401728
>ErrantX
>No. Skill check attack maneuvers do not make "attack rolls" that power attack qualifies for. If you use a skill check attack maneuver you cannot Power Attack.

This, of course, gets murkier if a character uses something like Minute Hand to make an attack roll as a swift action just before using Rising Zenith Strike as a standard action.

I doubt that Scarlet Throne needs any downgrades in light of this. Broken Blade, Primal Fury, and a certain stance of Thrashing Dragon do need tweaking, however, and Steel Serpent needs upgrades.

I personally think that Elemental Flux, Riven Hourglass, and Shattered Mirror (all supernatural disciplines, coincidentally) are the three most powerful disciplines of Path of War: Expanded. Their effects are remarkably powerful compared to their competitors, and I think that Reflected Blade Style could use a downgrade; duplicating strikes all the way to 9th-level is a bit much.

>>43857410
Correct. It can fly. You happen to be wearing it.

Your armor therefore gets its own move action every turn, which means you can yous your own action to full attack.

However, as >>43857370 pointed out, the armor will only have a STR Score of 10, so you'd have to pay to raise its str up high enough that you're within its carry capacity.

Tack on an extra +4k for the 18str to carry you and your shit, and you should be good to go.

>>43857464
Yeah, no, fuck him. That errata can fuck right off.

>>43857484
>yous

How did that happen...

*Use*

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>>43857396

You might consider just about any Wisdom- or Charisma-based spellcaster that can generate mind-affecting and/or enchantment effects, such as a sorcerer or a mesmerist, particularly since your attack modifiers will be relatively low for a paladin anyway.

>>43857493
Well it's phoenetically correct at least.

>>43857484
Huh, does it get str 10? I would have thought it'd have str -, because it can't move beyond flight.

>>43857464
Someone linked the FAQ thread on gitp with an opposite answer. They keep having different answers from different devs. I'm not gonna believe anything until it's confirmed by someone here.

>>43857403
Already did.
Kind of annoyed by the propensity of monsters who 'guide humanity'.

>Lipika Aeon, Anunnaki, Apkallu, Manasaputra (an entire race), Reptoid, Turuls, Vilderaven

Apostate Devils are bad asses, though.

>>43857423
I spend the whole session pulling NPCs out of my ass since there is few explanation on Magnimar, city of monuments about the leaders of the local churches and roleplaying them in a way it could be convincing they can't do much.
The Pharasma church told them since the cult is not dealing with necromancy (except for Aldern which is no more) they should talk with the Iomedae church, which eagerly gathered a group of paladins and clerics for assault the sawmill bot be stopped at Lowcleft by the Magnimar guard (supported by golems) since they were going to perform hostile actions outside of their district.
I should say that I made the Scarecrow appear before its moment to hint the player's their characters are already targeted and known by the cult, but the moment was lost when the wizard cast create pit under the golem, followed by grease from the magus and entangle casted by the hunter. They even managed to do 30 points of damage to the awakened construct.

>>43857484
Means you can't afford it until 7 or 8 though.

>>43857524
My understanding was that it gained a STR Score of 10 if you give it the ability to move.

Am I wrong about that?

But yeah. We've been having jokes about how martial characters work so much better when you give them an Iron man suit and can move around, and everyone always calls my armor Jarvis.

>>43857464
They said riven hourglass is getting nerfs at least. Way back though; I guess it'll be in the full version.

>>43857552
Nice!

Like any rebellious child, humanity doesn't have to actively listen and if goaded too far should use measures to restrain the beings seeking to guide them

>>43857576
I'm going to do a bit more digging. Since I'm getting several dissenting posts here, I'd like to know if I've been doing this wrong. I just assumed I had come across something cool that just hadn't been picked up on by the larger community.

If I wanted to update some of the Psionic races from 3.5 to Pathfinder, should I let them have Spell-Like Abilities or Psychic Energy points like monsters do? Points cost is equal to the spell level, but how many points does a creature get?
>Power Points are too powerful for players
>Gives monsters Power Points since it's easier to keep track of for the GM
Damn it, Paizo.

>>43857631
Why not just use dsp'dsp's psionics?

>>43857643
... the fuck, phone.

>>43857361
Should we split up /pfg/ into 1pp only and 3pp?

>>43856392
Everyone that posts on the Gaming Den is a giant fartknocker.

>>43857667
Why?

>>43857567
Fucking spellcasters.
You seem to have done a good enough job letting them know that calling their mommies to fight for them won't work. Groups like that are so mired in politics that any sudden action is followed by days of indecision and if it isn't in their direct interest or ethos, they may not be interested. Letting the players know after the fact that it was Ironbriar that was blocking them will also play up his role in the adventure which can get lost with the way that Skinsaw is written.

Magnimar gets a little more fleshing out in Shattered Star, so that could help fill out the ranks if you need it.

>>43857643
>3rd party
I wouldn't mind using it but my players are purists.
Are they direct translations from 3.5 or is it a different system?

>>43857631
Just use DSP's Psionics, why are you even looking at Occult Adventure's anything, shit's terrible.
>>Power Points are too powerful for players
I thought its because paizo hates the idea of players getting point based ANYTHING. The only thing worse than that is AT WILL MINOR ABILITIES.

>>43857667
No? Why the fuck would we do that?

If you have a question that's Paizo content only, just specify that you're only looking at Paizo content.

A Paizo only thread would be fucking dead in comparison to ageneral 3.p thread.

>>43857701
Direct translation, with additions, and some rebalancing. The DSP version is much better.

Hey, does anyone know a good place to get a copy of Melee Tactics Toolbox? 4+3 has failed me in this case.

>>43857701
'DSP's psionics are a port and expansion of 3.5's expanded psionics handbook.

>>43857701
>I wouldn't mind using it but my players are purists.
Ease them into to it, show them that the whole "3pp is unbalanced" is just a meme.
>Are they direct translations from 3.5 or is it a different system?
Port with some nerfs and buffs here and there and a few new classes.

>>43857516
racial bamboozle benefit's only a +1 bonus anyway; and I'm having trouble with the spellcaster aspect because A) nothing divine suits my character's faith (cleric domains are wrong, oracle mysteries are terrible, warpriest is fucked, shaman is weird in concept, inquisitor I'll look into), B) nothing arcane that's compatible with my light armor has both an ability score synergy and a non-intrusive concept (see: magus using INT), and C) the game has a soft ban on anything in tiers 1 or 2 anyway. oops, should have mentioned that as well.

>>43857701
I shit you not but one of the players said "I thought this would be fixed by them" when the iomedaians were stopped by the city guard.
We wasted and entire game session into politics which didn't lead to anything and they even hinted me of being upset and bored about this upcome.

>>43857488
Why so angry?

>>43857999
Because that's a dumb errata. Literally every martial is either taking Power Attack or Deadly Aim. Disallowing it's use is fucking stupid.

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>>43857866

You could consider a mystic (or even a stalker depending on how your GM rules Murderous Insight and Combat Precognition). That would give you mileage out of your Wisdom modifier and let you apply mind-affecting effects using disciplines like Eternal Guardian and Sleeping Goddess.

Why are you in light armor as a paladin with Dexterity 10?

>>43858040
See above about conflicting answers. Can any DSP guy clarify?

>>43858040
it's a tradeoff for being allowed to make the attack a near-guaranteed hit. you lose out on, at 20th level, 72 damage if you're 2-handed and didn't dip a 3/4 BAB class; if you are a 3/4 BAB class normally (and gain more from the strike than a full BAB chump) you instead would have 48 bonus damage. these aren't extravagant numbers in the context of zenith strikes.

What if we got rid of martial feats for the fighter and instead made them class features?

>>43857709
>>43857726
>>43857743
>>43857749
Thank you . I'll check it out. I was planning on home brewing it myself, but I may use them instead.

>>43857889
Be upfront with them. They tried to pass the ball and it went incomplete. By this point in the adventure they should know that the Skinsaws have powerful friends in the government and will block any effort to bring them to light. If they didn't want to handle it themselves, they shouldn't be surprised when it gets mucked up. They didn't have Hemlock and Sandpoint take care of the murders, why should they let Magnimar be the heroes? This is their adventure, it's not very adventurer-like to call the authorities when trouble brews.

The next step is to make it personel. Send some Skinsaws after them while they sleep to let them know they fucked up.

Even better, let a few rogue Iomedian paladins take matters into their own hands and get slaughtered. Now the church thinks the players were trying to lead them into a trap.

At the very least, tell the players that if the church handled it, the players would get no XP, treasure and they would miss out on any further leads to figure out what is going on.

It's not a sin to slap around lazy players.

What are some good ways to pump up disguise, ideally with feats? I've been given a rogue for a cohort, and I'm building them to be a spy, assassin and agent all in one. However, their Charisma isn't very good, so compared to their other skills their Disguise bonus is poor.

>>43858128
It's an investment that you made, being disabled for an aribtrary reason. The strikes say that your weapon's bonuses apply, it makes perfect sense that any associated penalties would also apply. I don't even get why there's even an argument about this.

>>43858084
Because we started at level 1 with all the starting wealth that entails and we've gotten more beans than gold since then.

>>43858176
I wouldn't call it arbitrary. Power attack only modifies attack rolls, and you're not making an attack roll.

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>>43858169

Try to see if you can attach the Clever Wordplay social trait and the Cunning Liar regional trait (from Heroes of the Streets) onto your cohort.

Those can net you Intelligence-based Bluff and Disguise, circumventing Charisma entirely.

>>43858193

You should request to your GM that your heavy armor-proficient paladin be given the opportunity to acquire full plate soon.

>>43858260
It's not an attack roll, but the strike says that it applies feats and abilities that enhance your attack. It'd be entirely reasonable to say that you also recieve any penalties that would apply to the attack too.

>>43858274
Cohorts sadly (as far as I'm aware) don't naturally get traits.

the Additional Traits feat gives them a pair of traits, though.

>>43857464
>>43857488
>>43858040
>>43858110
>>43858176
>>43858260
>>43858311

Power Attack and Deadly Aim work with skill check maneuvers, penalizing the skill check in place of the attack roll. There were originally conflicting answers by accident (a miscommunication before we moved to a better way of handling team discussions), and on behalf of the rest of the PoW guys, sorry about that. Here's the FAQ answer on it. This one is the correct one.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19532605&postcount=160

>>43858338
Neat.

>>43858274
But if I go mystic, I don't get the benefit of Withstand Spell in heavy armor until I have +1 fusing mithral armor, which is a ways off, and wouldn't it simply be better to have +X light armor instead?

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>>43858321

Cohorts have little to no formalized rules for creation.

Additional Traits should work.

>>43858338

Taking into account the upcoming errata to Path of War 1, does this push Scarlet Throne's double/triple/quadruple damage maneuvers outside of the expected power level of 2nd/5th/8th-level maneuvers, or is their potency at an acceptable level?

Has there been any word on the tactician's Collective Defenses?

>>43858374

You will have to sacrifice Withstand Spell as a 5th-level mystic, yes. There is little you can do about it, perhaps save for asking your GM.

If it bothers you that much, you could look into a stalker instead.

>>43858501
>upcoming errata to Path of War 1

Speaking of, when is that due to be released?

>>43858580
I think they were planning on doing that after they'd stopped hating everything to do with Path of War in general.

>>43855654
>warpriest
An archer warpriest gets 2 fewer bonus feats than a fighter does, qualifies for all of the fighter goodies, can cast spells on himself as a swift action, and can probably deal paladin-tier damage when built right. The hunter has no excuse...it's just so weak it deserves tier 4.

But you won't make much progress arguing here. This place isn't any better than the pazio boards in terms of actual arguments. They just happen to be right more often. Probably though chance.

>>43858501
>If it bothers you that much, you could look into a stalker instead.
Oh, right, I forgot that class existed. Hmm, and it gives a dodge bonus to AC (and Wisdom when recovering maneuvers), too... I'll consider the options, thanks.

>>43856153
>Playing a game of "mother my I"
Denner detected

>>43858761
>Right more often
>Through chance

You don't really understand probability, do you?

>>43858794
AFAIK, I know more math than anyone here combined. The truth is that it's just that my boring job gives me the time to actually do the math. I need a new job.

>>43857552

>tfw you will never play a campaign as Anunnaki custom-building your own race and trying to raise them to greatness throughout the aeons.

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the eternal sadness when you lurk for 30mins on the WoW TCG browser for a nice artwork for your next character, find the PERFECT one, track down the artist, and he doesn't have that one artwork uploaded in his gallery/deviantart. It happened at least 6 times now. I am so, so sad.

>>43858817
Really more pointing out that all other things being equal, for us to be right more often, SOMETHING needs to be swaying them towards idiocy or us towards wisdom.

Hey, a boring job's worse than an actively bad one.

>>43858791
Think I outed myself whenever he asked if I was a denner m8.

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>tfw I missed the deadline of a filthy lewd campaign looking for players on Roll20 that involved recently-elevated noblemen dealing with their newfound station trying to juggle a conquest-wife, taking orders from the Emperor, infighting and growing their harem with fresh conquests

I don't even know what to think.

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>>43858761

You are probably correct about the warpriest; swift action Divine Favors (with Fate's Favored) and Divine Powers are no small deal. That may be enough to warrant tier 3 combined with everything else.

It is odd that you bring up archery though; is it that worthwhile an idea to attempt an archer build under a 3/4 BAB class that needs Wisdom for spellcasting? I know Erastil and his boons exist, of course. Still, Righteous Might is more pro-melee than pro-ranged.

Do you think the occultist, the spiritualist, and the mesmerist deserve tier 3 placement? I have examined the occultist to a modest degree (did you know that the magic circles have no size limit, thereby allowing an occultist to place a whole city within a circle?) and think that it has enough raw spellcasting power and faux-essentia to enter tier 3.

The spiritualist and mesmerist, on the other hand, are unknowns to me. What are those classes' best tricks?

/pfg/ could stand to sit down and pick apart these classes to see if they truly deserve the tier placement they have been initially assigned.