What if gender identity really is a spectrum?

What if Hitler was wrong?
We can go all day with the "what ifs", but it's just not part of reality.

>>9039311
What if it wasn't but now it is?

Well, you have your hypothesis, now design a methodology and go for it.

What if gender is a Mobius strip?

Prove to me that gender exists.

>>9039311
Whaddiff your question weren't so vague and open-ended?

>>9039319
Hitler was good anon, you sound like a faggot.

Hey, Vsauce, Michael here, what if gender... is on a spectrum?

>>9039691
>Hitler was good anon, you sound like a faggot.

>the joke
>your head

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>>9039311
>Implying gender=gender identity
A dude can dress up like a girl, talk like a girl, look like a girl, and maybe even look better than most girls by doing it.
It still doesn't make him a girl.

>>9039311
If it was, people would've figured it out centuries ago.
Surprisingly, it's a very modern thing

>>9039311
science must relate and understand things in the way of models, examples and analogies.

calling "gender identity" primarily a sociological concept ,
a spectrum

gender identity isn't really anything except how human beings specifically attract potential mates. thats it.
you can put it in a matrix, smear it along a spectrum, or do some wierd flow chart .
It doesn't matter if its anything.

why does no one seem to understand how much science has to rely on terms like spectrum, model, graph, etc.

its a way to relate an idea, not necessarily the idea itself.

Somebody should ask what paper(s) this science guy bases this on, or otherwise we accomplish nothing

>>9039311
Gender identity isn't a spectrum, it's a plane.

And every point on that plane is worthless.

I think gender has been created and indoctrinated us into gender roles which are structured for a power play.

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>>9039311
Oh, it is. It's arguably a spectrum and a construct, because some people insist it is. That's already sufficient.

And it shouldn't be. Because the only purpose any notion of gender could ever serve is that of how to build a solid foundation for society, a partitioning of roles and expectations tied to reproductive ability and social performance. We must reconstruct the gender binary, or else we have a society with no foundation and demographic collapse is our final fate.

>>9040328
>or else we have a society with no foundation and demographic collapse is our final fate.
where are you getting this from sempai

>gender identity

Don't you mean personality identity, that's basically all these identities amount to

>>9039311
Holy fucking shit, are you this stupid?
Biological gender is a binary, though some mutations occur, but not enough to be considered 'normal'.
However, psychological gender could very well be on a spectrum, but we don't discuss that here as psychology isn't a 'hard science'.

>>9039311
what if anti-science garbage threads belong to >>>/lgbt/

>>9040357
Are you saying we don't base our identities on our genders?

>>9040390
>biological gender
You mean sex, anon

There's grown men who identify as six year old girls, ghosts, vampires, and so on, so why should we respect one who identifies as their opposite sex? They want to use their identified bathrooms, and so on, but what happens when a grown man wants to be in kindergarten or to haunt someone's home? It's all nonsense even if their brains change. We shouldn't support delusions of the mind.

It is, desu.

>>9040313
Research papers are discriminatory.

>>9039691
>reading comprehension

>>9039311
Gender Identity IS a spectrum
Gender is not

What if vaccines really did cause autism?
What if the earth is really flat?
What if you weren't retarded?

>>9039311

honest question. how is believing that your biological gender is not your actual gender different from any other delusion?

>>9040525
one in the same

>>9040736
because there's records of unique, very small societies without the same rigid gender descriptions that the other 100 billion people in earth's history lived by

>>9040762
>very small
And there's your answer. There's a reason they didn't prosper.

i'll rephrase the question. why should we go so far out of our way to entertain their delusions?

are there any studies that suggest surgery and hormones actually improve outcomes?

>>9040736
Because they're defined as different things that aren't dependent on each other. It's like saying someone is "delusional" for being poor but wanting to be rich.

>>9040780
>correlation does not imply causation.

>>9040807
nonsensical post

>>9039319
did someone say my name?

>>9040805
does it actually matter? Whats the point of doing anything? I've felt no reason to live in life until i decided to transition. Why do you people care so much, let us just live in peace and silence.

>>9040807
except some people can become rich, and the best they can do is become a freakish imitation and mutilate themselves in the process.

>>9040811

i don't really have a dog in the fight, except that this thread has been made thousands of times, and trans-rights have become a ridiculous distraction from more important things. i'd wager that CBT and some anti-depressants would probably do anyone at least as much good as surgery and hormones. it's a political tool being used at the expense of these delusional people.

>>9040825
>thinking anti-depressants work
maybe they'll get you up in the morning, but they're not going to change what. There not going to change the dysphoria thats felt when you see what you are, and you see whats expected of you, and you see that you'll never be who you want to be.

The only reason it's being talked about so much, is the same reason anyone does anything now a-days, attention and money.

>>9040852

that's why I also mentioned CBT. these people need to get a grip, not injure themselves with elective surgery.

>>9040852
I want to be a brown loli, where's my fucking surgery?!
Seriously though, life is suffering. Get over yourself.

>>9040751
The phrase is one AND the same, and why do you think they're the same

>>9040868

CAN DO

> takes a few inches from your shins and spine
> tatoos your whole body brown

this is clearly not pathological at all.

>>9039311
Personality is a spectrum, not gender.
People get the two confused.

>>9039311
If your brain is trying to inhibit your ability to reproduce, and pass on your genes, then your brain is fucked. It's as simple as that.

>>9040886
are you saying being gay is a mental illness?

>>9040895
It's a malfunction of the brain, yes.

How else would you describe it?

>>9039311
First we must define what gender is.
I think most people agree it's the attributes of a certain sex, but whether you define those attributes as societal or genetic are very important. Those who define gender as genetic attributes of a certain sex point to women having a lower muscle capacity and a natural instinct to care for their young as gender. Those who define gender as societal attributes of a certain sex point to the pink blue dichotomy and what are jobs for women and what are jobs for men as gender. In both cases, there are still only two genders, but debating this requires knowing what gender even is.

>>9040886
then why do gays have a higher iq on average? I think the true sign of ascendance is reaching beyond any biological imperatives.

>>9040868
You obviously don't understand dysphoria since you made that comparison. If you'd prefer people like me live out our lives as faggy feminine men with self destructive lifestyles then so be it. I'de much rather find a nice guy and settle down and have a family.

>>9040909
I don't know why. Nor do I know why that matters?

Biologically speaking they are a redundant, and sadly a waste of good intelligence genes.

>>9040909
>gets told to get over themselves
>crawls up their own ass even further
If you stay this insular and stubborn you'll never change, no matter how you dress or what pills you take.

>>9040923
change to what? a true blue manly man? I'll find that "power within myself" and undergo some sort of amazing transformation, accepting who i am, finding a wife and settling down with kids or something like that? I've been there and i've done that. If you can honestly give me a reason that what im doing is wrong, or how there IS a better life to live then shoot.

>>9039311
>>>lgbt/

>>>lgbt/

>>>lgbt/

>>>lgbt/

>>>lgbt/

>>>lgbt/

>>9040948

not him. but CBT is powerful. if you haven't lopped your dick off yet you may want to give it a shot.

>>9039311
It doesn't matter whether or not gender identity is a spectrum, what matters is if the gender operator is self adjoint.
Also you can have a discrete spectrum, as such there need only be two genders for it to still be on a spectrum.

>>9040948
You're the one looking for change, retard, how am I supposed to know what change would make YOU happiest?
But you won't see it either if you keep self-mythologizing your dysphoria, and pretending that your situation is beyond other people's understanding.
I'll say it one more time: get over yourself.

>>9039311
Genders are the projected expectations of an individual based on their sex. Modern gender studies started in the 50s, at which point the term was adopted to refer specifically refer to the psychological aspects of an individual's thinking, and how they've been influenced either by their sex and/or society's expectations of their sex. They define a whole bunch of sub-divisions between full-masculine and full-feminine to help clarify and extrapolate these studies.

Fast-forward 50 years and scientists be like, "oh, okay, so I guess the differences in behavior are partially chemical, but largely develop from the projected expectations of an individual from society's assumed standards for their sex."

The layman's like, "TL:DR"

Scientists simplify: "Sex doesn't matter; you can be whatever you want to be."

Layman misinterprets this as "Sex doesn't matter; you can be whichever you want to be."

Trannies run with it, some homos start thinking "maybe I'm actually [the other sex]," and people start identifying things that aren't even genders as "new genders."

Technically the "agender" people are the only ones that are correct, because genders are in fact assumed/assigned; by the individual or by society, but they're not an actual thing that influences you they're just feelings and opinions and stuff. Liking to paint your nails doesn't make you any more a girl than wearing baseball caps makes you a boy.

>>9039311
>>>/lgbt/

>>>/lgbt/

>>>/lgbt/

>>>/lgbt/

>>>/lgbt/

>>9040963
Honestly, lets say i did go through with it. Lets ASSUME it somehow works, and lets say that i become the ideal man because of it. How much of me, and my desires are actually left. I hate to say it, but being feminie and desiring to be female has been my primary motivator and an important part of who i am. To change that, would be no different than dying for me.

Is my purpose in life to shape my desires and wants to what society deems acceptable? Is my purpose to pass on my genetic code? Or to pay my taxes? For one reason or another, these desires and feelings define me, to get rid of them would be to destroy me. Forcing myself to try and find things fun that i've never had interest in to fit the "prime directive" sounds like hell honest.

>>9040988

that's actually a great question. CBT changes your current objective, rather than helping you accomplish it. you're moving the goal posts, so to speak.

>How much of me, and my desires are actually left

hopefully none of them except the desire to cut your dick off. if that's all you're about you're probably a very boring individual.

>>9040390
Essentially this. People talk past each other so much with this semantical bullshit because they don't realize that words can have more than one meaning. It's sad the amount of time and effort expended on arguing about what gender is when people could just agree on a fucking definition for like an hour and talk about actual issues.

>>9041009

*all of them

but you get what i meant.

>>9040984
Have you ever actually been to /lgbt/?
You know those profile sheets some boards like /co/ or /tg/ have? I saw one on the front page; it looked just like one of /v/'s or /tg/'s so I started filling it out. Thought the inclusion of "Gender Identity" was wierd, but I just put in the same as my sex: male.
Rounded it out, got back into the board, scrolled up to the top to post, and only then realized what board I was in.
Figured I finished it so I may as well post it, and did.
Came back ~10 mins later to 5 responses.
I'm parahprasing, but they broke down into:
> wtf are you doing here?
> fuck off
> kys cisfag
> fuck off
> fuck off

It's literally a circle-jerking containment board for people who's personality begins and ends with their self-imposed gender rules.

>>9041024
gender garbage belongs to its containment board. there's nothing to discuss here

>>>/lgbt/

>>>/lgbt/

>>>/lgbt/

>>>/lgbt/

>>>/lgbt/

>>9041027
things I don't like can only be on one board

>>>/fuck off/

>>>/fuck off/

>>>/fuck off/

>>>/fuck off/

>>>/fuck off/

that's you
that's how dumb you sound

>>9041032
>u-ur dum
no need to show off your IQ there. just go back to your transpedophile shithole

>>>/lgbt/

>>>/lgbt/

>>>/lgbt/

>>>/lgbt/

>>>/lgbt/

>>9040973
>I'll say it one more time: get over yourself.
what is that even suppose to mean? Stop thinking? Just live life, man?

Im not trying to say people don't understand it, im just saying you don't.

>>9040976
Technically the "agender" people are the only ones that are correct, because genders are in fact assumed/assigned; by the individual or by society, but they're not an actual thing that influences you they're just feelings and opinions and stuff.

Im not even sure gender even exist at this point. Like, i've met plenty of men and females with the exact same personalities, the only obvious difference is how they present themselves. The more i talk to people, about how they act and how why they dress and present themselves the way they do, the more it seems to just be based on expectations of other people.

Like, the reason the girls i hang out with wear dresses is because they know it looks good on them. The reason they know this, is because they recognize they have a female body ect.ect.ect...

Im never going to say im a real female. I wish i was, but ill never be sadly. If you had to simplify it, i prefer the female aesthetic. I like the treatment i receive for appearing female, and wish i could be beautiful for a man, and give him children.

I look at how society has defined two types of people, with roles they fulfill, and how i (for WHATEVER REASON) have a affinity and desire to be in the one i wasn't born.

>>9040963
There's romance, along with tragedy, in being homosexual. And that is also part of the human culture. I agree with the fundamental fact that gender is binary, and this being essential in projecting a society in the demographic way.

Although, whether anon wants to distributes his genes is his own business.

Furthermore, I'm keen and open to read more when it comes to gender identity mythologies. It's a shame it lacks, but I suppose that's because homosexuality is recently more accepted than it used to be.

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>>9041027
bro shut up

>>9041009
So then your answer is, nothing matters - and what you want is basically stupid and impossible and i should just distract myself with an endless series of objectives until i die. I mean, thats basically what i was doing. I worked my butt off for a few years working 3 jobs to get a home and some land. Everytime i felt bad about being male or whatever, i just pushed those thoughts away and watched work out videos and tried to be manly. Only after getting everything i set out for, did i break up with my gf and see how empty living this lie was. Im tired of not doing what i want. Im tired trying to live a life i don't enjoy.

>>9041062

>Although, whether anon wants to distributes his genes is his own business.

not asking him to have kids. just trying to dissuade him from going full pain-olympics on his weener.

report cancer threads
hide cancer threads
ignore cancer threads

>>>/lgbt/

>>>/lgbt/

>>>/lgbt/

>>>/lgbt/

>>>/lgbt/

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>>9041071
>i just pushed those thoughts away and watched work out videos and tried to be manly.

that's absolutely not how you do CBT. you don't push the thoughts away. it's hard to describe, but you should look into it.

>>9041076
I see. Are there advantages in doing that?

>>9041076
if i told you im not interested in cutting off my dick, your saying you'd be ok with it? SRS is honestly disgusting as fuck.

Hypothetically, lets say we met and i looked like a girl, and sounded like a girl, and for all intents and purposes, was a girl (minus having a dick). AND lets say, i told you i was a male. Would you be able to accept my existence?

>>9039311

without getting too wishy-washy, it's something like meditation. you don't push thoughts away, but you don't "think" about them either. after a few weeks, they don't bother you anymore.

if you're not a larping faggot, humor me and give it a try.

>>9041095

buddy i don't give a fuck. i just think you'd be a healthier person with a few adjustments upstairs.

>>9041105
well what im saying is, your idea of being healthy and how i should act is pointless - so im doing what i want. I wouldn't expect you to understand though, you sciency types are all logic and no feeling. I mean, what do you even want from life? You know what i want, whats your end game?

>>9041096
I did use to meditate, read all about the benefits of clearing your mind and letting go of all your attachments in reality. Getting rid of your desires. But it only cemented to me that this was the right choice in my life. The one desire that keeps coming back. Ill definatly look into all of this, just for you <3

>>9041127
>clearing your mind and letting go of all your attachments in reality

again, wrong. it's not trying to clear your mind. i wish there was an easier way to describe the technique.

>>9041127
>well what im saying is, your idea of being healthy and how i should act is pointless - so im doing what i want.

you aren't. someone with gender dysphoria is just that, dysphoric. there will always be something in their mind nagging at them regardless of how well they can impersonate a woman.

>>9040816
There are some people who can be come very much like the opposite sex, and some people who have literally no chance of becoming rich. "Some people" is not a valid argument.

>>9040825
> i'd wager that CBT and some anti-depressants would probably do anyone at least as much good as surgery and hormones
Those have been tried, they're usually not very effective though.

>80 replies

The caner that is killing /sci/.

>>9041142
so, correct me if im wrong, but your saying that i should use this mental exercise to try and minimize my dysphoria (since you just stated it is impossible to actually get rid of) and fall in line with society? Where does it end?

Its not just about having feelings you dont have, its about the desires i don't have and probably never will. I've been with women in the past, but it has never felt right. I even have a girl at work who has a crush on me, so i took her on a date. One thing every girl i've been with has said, is that im always distant, cold, and withdrawn from them in relationships. I just don't care for being with them, i feel no pull to be in a relationship where i play the role as male. I get nothing from being in that role, its honestly as boring as can be. But when these men flirt with me, show off for me and treat me kindly, i feel a desire i've never felt for them. I feel i can help them and be with them, raise a family with them. Something about it just feels right.

I guess you could try and break it down with "science', and say that i have a chemical imbalance, or my neurological receptors aren't working right or something. But whats the point of it all? Would it be better to ship people like me away to an island like the broken toys in rudolph? Or try to fix us through these exercises and medications? Whats the point of doing anything if were all just the same, wanting the same things?

>>9041203

you can still dress like a girl and date dudes if you want. CBT will just make you indifferent to not having a vag.

or at least, that would be the idea.

>>9039311
>>9039473
>>9040300
>>9040328
its nothing new
the only new thing is how much the people who dont like it talk about it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_cross-dressing

gender identity is clearly flexible in the eye of the beholder. a subjective analysis of self to modify behaviors, there is nothing exclusively wrong with it.

>>9040111
>A dude can dress up like a girl, talk like a girl, look like a girl, and maybe even look better than most girls by doing it.
>It still doesn't make him a girl.

It makes him fuckable, and that's all that matters.

>>9041245
>It makes him fuckable, and that's all that matters.
finally someone gets it. Just treat me like a girl and ill do whatever you want

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>>9041258

pure degeneracy

>>9039311
It's not

/thread

>>9041043
Just gonna tell you and everyone else that just because you have a "feeling" doesn't mean that anyone else's "feelings" aren't as real as yours. Your desire to be accepted is probably not even a billionth of how much of a fuck that people give in general about transgenders being accepted.

>mfw the janitor didn't delete this shitpost of a thread but deleted the race ones

>>9041672
>janny didnt think my thread was quality so im gonna bump one i dont think is quality

anger and spite wont serve you here anon

>>9040886
>>9040921
>you have to pass on muh genes
Imagine being this much of an is-ought faggot who isn't even aware of genetic hypotheses in the field, like a genetic predisposition to be attracted to a certain sex that causes propagation of the gene if the right gender has it

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>>9041275
>m-muh degeneracy

>>9041672
Janitors dont delete threads they mark them for deletion.

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>>9039319

>>9042639

well excuuuuuse me. guess i'm just a little weirded out by chicks with dicks.

>>9041043
>I've met men and women with the same personalities

Stop getting gender and personality confused

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>>9043736
Talk for yourself.

Some of us prefer that shit.

Perks:
>has a dick
>can't get her pregnant
>has a dick instead of a smelly fish hole
>doesn't get massive monthly PMS mood swings due to no hormonal fluctuations
>has a dick

>>9043963
>will probably kill himself
wew

>>9043963
>Perks:
>has a dick
Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay
I mean look at that shit, it's clearly a man

>>9039311
Fucking semantics arguments are the worst

>>9043997
Nah, never went into a serious depression in my life.

Will probably live till old age or beyond if taking the pace of technology under consideration.

>>9044004
A man born to take a dick, that is.

I'm bisexual btw. it's pretty common for us to seek mates with mixed features of both sexes

>>9044010
Every day it makes me want to scream how much masses of idiots waste their time on this irrelevant bullshit as a weird form of proxy war in place of talking about the actual issues.

>>9039311
No. Mental illness, however, is a spectrum.

>>9039311
>>>/lgbt/
mental illness

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>>9044542
>. Mental illness
>>9044553
>mental illness

Xenophobia IS an actual mental illness.
You might want to get tested.

>>9044569
>Xenophobia
Xenophobia kept human species alive for tens of thousands of years you stupid degenerate.

And gender dysphoria IS A MENTAL DISEASE! It was in DSMV and is listed as a mental disease in is listed in all non-SJW, non-degenerate countries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria

Seek help you mental wackjob.

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>>9039311

0.3% outliers does not make it a spectrum. It's a bimodal distribution.

>>9039628
You have a penis, and women have vaginas. Coincidentally, we can observe the distinction between the two easily, as your penis will never come in contact with a woman's vagina.

>>9044609
once hysteria was considered a disease, and had prescriptions for it.

I don't even believe in 2 genders.

"Fe"-males suffer from a mental illness that needs treatment, not a lifestyle that society should accept

You can redefine a word to be whatever you want. It doesn't make it any more pragmatic.

So you want to say gender is a "spectrum" and basically just a bunch of random bullshit behavioral disorders, then we'll simply fall back on using the actually useful and accurate term, sex. Because we care about whether your chromosomes are XY/XX and whether you produce more test/estrogen and how you reproduce, not about your haircut or what kind of shirts you like to wear. Faggot

>>9044609
Without looking it up, could you please define "gender dysphoria" and comment on why the DSMV lists specifically that as the the mental disorder? Then could you specify what "seek help" means, and what you think said "help" will lead to.

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>>9044789
here you go.

>>9044797
Oh fuck I never considered that before. I've got some real thinking to do now.
>>9044757
Who is "we"?

Define gender identity. Most things are artificial

>>9041043
>The more i talk to people, about how they act and how why they dress and present themselves the way they do, the more it seems to just be based on expectations of other people.

Did you read the post you responded to?

>>9044802
This is a blue board you figger naggot.

>>9039311
I'd give 2 fucks instead of the usual 1 fuck.

>>9045068
yes sure, but there are actually idiots out there who want to forcefully change society based on that rubbish. they might block your path as soon as tomorrow, anon.

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>thinking gender is real

>>9044802
Im 12 and what is this?

>>9043997
So the relationship never drags on, another positive

>>9044731
>0.3% outliers does not make it a spectrum.
Yes it does, a spectrum isn't weighted

>It's a bimodal distribution.
Which means it's non-binary,

>>9039311
It obviously is. You can debate the specifics and the healthiness and the acceptability and whatever of it, but if you want to claim gender is binary you are just denying reality. Wishing something to be the case does not make it the case. Fact is, some societies recognise more than one gender, and even in our own modern Western society people don't fall neatly into two distinct categories. Anyone who denies this is ignorant, and probably wilfully so.