/gsg/ Graduate Student General: Gas the grade grubbing premeds edition

>>8761011
>They're changing their answers, so 5 out of 7 that have emailed me. This should make for an interesting week since we are way past the drop deadline and our policy is automatic F if caught cheating.

Holy fucking shit. Top kek.

It is always good to remind that these premed fuckers were the goody two shoes back in high school. The teacher's pet and all that.

It is nice to see them suffer. Fuck em.

they all do that. undergrads are brutal and will lie through their teeth for a couple of extra points.

>>8761011
I'm assuming that shit tactic is considered cheating. Fuck those students.

>>8761011
haha le gas chamber joek hehe xd so edgy epic le nazi reference hehe xd

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>>8761011
Medical school boy here.

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>>8761019
>Holy fucking shit. Top kek.
Yep, they will have that F and a mark on their transcripts for med school applications. Our chair is no nonsense and our dean (math/stats are in the same college as them) is based AF too.

I want to feel sorry for them, but they really are the worst when it comes to cheating. It seems as though none of them give a shit about the material, only their grade. "Understand the subject matter" falls on deaf ears, and it's more "let's go to [anon's] office to get a few more points."

>>8761020
Yeah I know undergrads can be brutal, but in my experience, most undergrads are pretty reasonable when they fuck up, but not premeds. Premeds are all about trying to harass GTAs until they at least one more point. For them it's low risk - high reward. It's annoying as hell.

>>8761024
Yep, and we're past the drop deadline, so it will be an F and a mark on their transcripts for cheating.

>>8761042
t. premed Chegg superuser

>>8761049
hopefully you're doing alright. good luck

>>8761011
They who?

>>8761069
>Yep, they will have that F and a mark on their transcripts for med school applications. Our chair is no nonsense and our dean (math/stats are in the same college as them) is based AF too.

Lol man you just completely murdered them. And they deserved it too.

>>8761011
OP, please tell me, were they women?

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>>8761074
>Lol man you just completely murdered them. And they deserved it too.

Who knows maybe they will make great vets for my dogs...

>>8761100
>OP, please tell me, were they women?
So far it's a good mix of women and men.

>>8761100
i would ve said who care and that you probably hate woman but experience taught me other wise. chick can get away with this at least in lower level.
although i was a pre-med major I can confirm that for this kid it s all about that GPA, they were willing to burn professor in order to keep that A-. understanding the material is def not a priority

Not sure how I'll do in my Research Design class. This is the professor's second semester teaching, first graduate class, and she doesn't know what she's doing. Woo.

>>8761184
>So far it's a good mix of women and men.
Ah, feels good man.

Knowing that out there there are first world privileged women suffering just makes my day.

>premed math major in my classes
>literally EVERY assignment will go to the professor and fight for extra points

makes me cringe hard

>had to pick readings for PI's upper level course
>get to sit in class this upcoming week and question them to make sure they did the readings because my PI didn't
>PI said he's gonna buy me pizza

>upper level lab only course with 15 kids
>almost all of them constantly ignore me and keep fucking up
>recently found out the most arrogant and annoying girl who unironically bullies her classmates got a C in single variable calculus and skipped her oral mid term exam

Kek, fucking cunt.

Also managed to finish my current experiment (excellent data) and start my next one while submitting a manuscript for publication and starting to write up another. I also got extra funding for the summer and I'll hear back soon about a bigger grant for the next (academic) year.

>>8761286
what the fuck is "excellent data"? just because it fits what you postulate does not make it more or less than what it is.

data is data.

>>8761302
As in good enough to take to 2 conferences instead of one (it dips into another topic I didn't expect it to). It didn't actually fit my hypothesis, it falsified it and gave me more interesting results than I expected.

Give me a break man, this was 10 months of daily data collection.

>>8761306
In other words, I get a free trip to another country as a result. I consider that excellent since I worked through every holiday the past year.

You're right though, data is data. It's just exciting since this was originally a kinda standard experiment with the sole purpose of giving me a conference abstract for the main conference in my field.

>>8761306
>>8761325
nice job homey. not hating, congrats.

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>>8761329
Thanks famalam.

>>8761011
>Last day of Spring break here, and my email is already blowing up about how I made a grading mistake and they had the correct answer. They're even attaching pics of their tests to the emails. HAHAHA our department policy is to scan and copy every exam before we grade it, and guess what? They're changing their answers, so 5 out of 7 that have emailed me. This should make for an interesting week since we are way past the drop deadline and our policy is automatic F if caught cheating.

>fucking premeds in charge of not ruining science/math for everyone else
every single one of those fuckers deserve it and more

After reading all these stories about premeds I would rather just tell people I want to be a molecular biologist or some shit. The whole fields come to be associated with the biggest adderal snorting, soulless cheating retards I've ever met.


From my personal experience:
>dipshit who wants to be a "cardeyuh thoraksik surgeon" can't even pronounce the fucking name of his specialization right
>dipshit squad that openly brag about cheating on the exam as they leave the classroom
>The "I haven't chosen a specialization cause I'm not sure which one makes the most money" dipshit

There are more but I phase them out of memory to not feel even worse about this field. They choose it only because of the money thus you have a bunch of robotic dickheads who don't give a shit about actually learning anything.

>>8761445
Yeah you should just do that. You don't want the stigma of being premed. Sucks but that's how it is.

>premed
>has no interest in biology/chemistry etc
>becomes bio/chem etc major

why do they do it?

>>8761767
It's usually their parents desu. Dated an Indian chick in college who was premed and a mol bio major. She hated science but thought she wanted to be a doctor cuz her parents had drilled it into her so bad.

>ohmygod anon why did I get 1 point off for this? Stacy had, like, almost the SAME thing for her conclusion. But my handwriting is fine, what are you talking about?

>barometric pressure? what? where am I supposed to find that? come on anon I really need these points, I'm going to become a dentist

>ANON OH MY GOD NO BRITNEY AND I ARE LAB PARTNERS SO WE HAD THE SAME DATA SO WE COULDN'T NOT TURN IN IDENTICAL REPORTS. what? our work has to be unique? why? that's dumb

>Anon, I need you to excuse me from lab for next week because I'm going to be gone with Britney, Stacy, and Kelsey for my sorority's annual charity dance marathon. That isn't an acceptable excuse for missing lab? Anon...come on, work with me here

>>8761877
>sorority stuff is IMPORTMANT ANON!
why the fuck are you in STEM if you think anything comes above the science you cunts

Someone could please explain me how the fuck does the college system work for medicine in the US? I'm a medicine student myself and here we don't have premeds, majors, minors. What's all that? Always confuses me

>>8761011
>My field is statistics.
what can you tell me about reliability?

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>>8761011
Completely up to you anon, but I'd use this instead of just turning them in.
Have them stay after, and tell them you're going to be giving them a test in a week, that will override this one - and that you will be turning them in for cheating should they get less than stellar marks.

Learn the subject material, or drown, with very immediate results. Probably will be quite effective.

>>8762132
Why the fuck would anyone do this
>okay I have 100% concrete evidence you cheated.
>So I'll waste a couple hours of my time making another exam so you can do a rewrite and have another chance to get off with no repercussions and a good grade

>>8761877
>ohmygod anon why did I get 1 point off for this?
This annoys me more when they lost 2 goddamn marks on the whole exam and still feel the need to come in and fight for both of them.

Fuck off faggot you got a 96

who /switched majors/ here?

I did Physics undergrad but decided to go into Nuclear Engineering for my master's (though I'd be lying if I didn't admit that my parents were encouraging me to make the switch due to job outlooks). I'm enjoying it so far but I don't know where exactly I want to focus on yet (my thesis project is doing simulations for a test reactor that's being rebooted). I'm more interested in reactor physics than shit like thermal hydraulics, but I'm also interested in nuclear medicine and I guess some degrees of plasma physics.

Anyone applying to schools for PhD programs? Interested in hearing where other masters' students are planning to go and what they're focusing in.

Reminder to report and ignore shitposting.

>>8761011
Welder here. Engineering drop out. Couldnt keep up with the calculus. So I know how they feel. Unless theyre the kind of people who didnt have to work 40 hours a week to pay for shit. Then they deserve it. Glad I droppeed out though. No debt (calc 3 killed me in community college) and $36 lined up starting job that tops in the $50s and I can just leave to get higher wages once Im experienced.

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What's tha latest Liquor brewing technology /sci/?

>tfw no TA requirement

We're like the one top genetics program that does this, too. I'm so glad.

>>8762137
This. They deserve to be expelled, but since the schools are too pussy, at least hit them with a fail.

>>8762249
Is Nuclear Engineering a field with good job prospects in the US? Naively I would say that it seems like an area with just a limited amount of jobs that is unlikely to grow.

>>8762041

A "premed" major isn't an official major. It just means "premedical."

In the US, medical school is like grad school. You do undergrad in whatever major, take the prereq classes and the entrance exam, and when you get your degree, you apply to medical school and hope you get in.

The prereqs for med school are biology, physics, gen. Chem and organic chemistry, 1 year each. Because of that, most premeds choose a biology or chemistry major, but the most common now is actually biochem, since that material is on the MCAT (entrance exam). But you could major in interpretive dance if you wanted, so long as you fulfilled the requirements.

But medical school is insanely competitive. The average GPA of a matriculant is a 3.75 on a 4.0 scale, a very good mcat score (at LEAST 80th percentile) and a bunch of extracurriculars like volunteering and research. The demands create hyper-competitive dick heads, most of whom drop out because getting a 3.75gpa is hard when you don't actually care about the material.

Medical school itself is then 4 years long, with a 3-7 year residency afterwards, depending on what specialty you go into.

Medical school in the US is a very obvious path, with no surprises, so absolute retards become premeds because they got some decent grades in high school AP Chem

>>8761286
>PI said he's gonna buy me pizza
I want your PI

>Chem grad student
>Had choice of doing recitation (aka homework help + homework grading) for gen chem 2 or lab for gen chem 2, same # of hours

I chose lab. My friend chose recitation. I definitely made the better choice imo, because it's a lot easier to deal with students asking for more points (actually, it's only happened once or twice in my 1.5 semesters TAing so far) because all the data came from THEM and if they fucked up the experiment, that's their problem. Meanwhile my friend deals with people saying "yeah I did the problem wrong but I deserve 3/5 instead of 2/5!" all the time.

Maybe my students don't complain so much about points because I don't go to a competitive school...

>Be bio undergrad, junior year
>Haven't heard from any REU programs yet
>Assuming at this point I won't get accepted to any
Do you think I'll still be competitive for grad school with a 2 year independent study under my belt, along with a ~3.6 GPA and pretty good extracurriculars? Assuming I do well on the GREs anyway

>>8762593
by independent study do you mean in a lab headed by a PI?

>>8762593
Do you have your name on any conference abstracts or publications? TA experience? Do you know more lab techniques than your average bio major? Do you have a PI with connections? Are you a minority or female?

These things matter more than GPA for graduate school, as long as you're above a 3.

>>8762249
>Anyone applying to schools for PhD programs?
paleofag here, got accepted to Mizzou
feels goodman

>>8762619
Forgot to add rec letters to this list.

Geochemistry MS student working on Paleoclimate. Going to Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution in April to continue my sampling and analysis. Going to be fun.

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>>8762732
neat.csv
what's your focus?
temperature, OAEs, ocean circulation...?

I am a graduate TA. I usually get pestered by Chinese students. They always try to get extra points because they didn't understand English properly. I tell them to fuck off.

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>>8762132
Nope. I am not going to waste my time by creating, administering, and grading another exam just so some cheaters get a second chance.

I have copies/scans of their exams before they were graded. They're saying that I made a mistake grading, but their "proof" that I made a mistake is altered answers than the ones that they submitted on the exam. They can enjoy that F.

>>8762148
Yeah this is also pretty annoying.

>>8762310
t. another premed Chegg superuser

>>8762333
Yeah it sucks, but at least we can give them an F.

>>8762542
>Meanwhile my friend deals with people saying "yeah I did the problem wrong but I deserve 3/5 instead of 2/5!" all the time.
That's why you need to have a rubric for grading. That way when they start bitching about points, you point them to the rubric and say "see this is why you only got 2/5" and it helps avoid some of the issue in >>8761877

>>8762635
Congratulations!

>>8762754
>I tell them to fuck off.
I wish I could be that blunt, but I try to remain as professional as possible.

>>8762739
Mainly temperature, but the resolution of the sampling can give us insight into decadal cycles. Maybe even ENSO.

Fuck talking about teaching. I never want to teach. I had to get up at 7 today to go sit at office hours (assigned to me) only for no one to show up so far. I literally felt ill grading papers the other day because of how massive a time suck it is from important shit.

Anyway, I have a final in my organometallics class tomorrow (taught by PI) and I haven't studied nearly enough. I'm fucked.

Research is interesting and going well at least.

>>8762510
Here in Germany (and I think Europe in general) you have an own Medicine degree which is 5 years long (like the old Diplom which got replaced in most majors by Bachelor/Master). It is hard to get in, because you need to do well in highschool, but once in, the first three years you only need to pass the exams but the grades don't matter.

>>8761011
>premeds

What even IS this shit?

>putting up with the med school bullshit
>before you're even IN med school

I swear to god you americans are cucked to hell and back

>>8763658

Man that sounds comfy as fuck if you get in.

Americans stress about getting to the best uni possible, so they kill themselves in high school, then for another 4 years in uni, then kill themselves to take the MCAT and IF you get into med school, you have to kill yourself again so you can be something other than an internist.

>>8761069
I don't really mean to defend those faggot ass students, people in my class do that shit too and I think they're fucking faggots.

But seriously get off your high horse.

>cheating

How the fuck is it cheating? The student is handing you a request for points, after-the-fact, using official channels. They aren't trying to fucking lookup answers during the test.

The correct thing to do is to simply deny such bullshit requests. How the fuck do you justify giving them an F for this shit? Just admit you're looking for a reason to fuck them.

>It seems as though none of them give a shit about the material, only their grade.

It's not surprising at all. You people came up with this crappy ass "grading" system and it's the student's fault for trying to optimize his score?

Will giving a shit about "the material" allow them to pass their grade and get into med school? Fuck no. Will they be able to get into fucking Radiology and make all that sweet money if they get a crap score? Absolutely not. So why the fuck are you offended when they try to get what they want by any means available?

I bet most of "the material" won't be directly applicable to whatever it is you're going to do with your life. Not giving a shit about it until its relevance is proven is the sanest course of action. You're like every pretentious teacher ever, who thinks his particular bullshit is the center of the fucking universe. Most likely than not people have better things to do than "understand" whatever material you're preaching.

>"Understand the subject matter" falls on deaf ears, and it's more "let's go to [anon's] office to get a few more points."

That's pretty rich coming from the people who use points to measure the student's understanding.

If you actually cared about people "actually understanding things" you'd be doing one-on-one mentoring programs, not the currently widespread mass education system. Of course that just "doesn't scale" right?

>>8764079
t. salty premed

>>8764079
You don't need one on one mentoring to understand something. What they used to do before the current system was read books. You've heard of those, right anon?

>>8764079
>optimize his score
Is this bait? They clearly edited their photos to cheat for extra points. Not against cheating, but if you get caught suck it up. You are retarded.

>>8764097
There's no premed in my country you fucking cuck.

>>8764114
Reading books doesn't directly translate into grades either. Does your teacher go to your library and make note of who's reading so he can give extra points later? Fuck no.

Many times my gunner classmates read the books from cover to cover only to discover the faggot teacher would only ask the random niche things he says directly in class and are nowhere to be found in any of the course references. Cue their indignation and frantic argumentation so they can invalidate those two questions that marred their perfect scores. Me? I'm smarter than that: I just record the guy and transcribe the audio later. I know better than to waste time "understanding" material rather than just say whatever it is you faggots want to hear.

>>8764128
Then fucking reject their fucking application, asshole. You're going out of your way to fuck people who are only there because it's an absolute requirement for them. They couldn't give less of a shit about your course.

>>8762527
It was good pizza. Students were shitters as always.

Back to work.

>>8762510
>3.75 GPA
>Competitive

>>8764169
If they can't pass the course then medical school has decided that they just aren't qualified to be doctors. It's just that simple.

>>8761445
Haha you fucking dipshit. You're ashamed of your own kind? Are you even IN medical school? Come here preach about your selfless desire to learn and help africans get healthcare once you're actually 4 years in and have been used as a hospital slave in 14+ hour shifts nearly every fucking day of damn life with asshole doctors whose idea of teaching is asking you absolutely retarded questions in front of the patient, only to have some gunner piece of shit show you up. You know it's something worth remembering when they're all things these assholes gotta look it up the night before!

Those "premeds" giving you real talk about their (GASP) intention to make as much money as possible? The horror! Good for them. They won't be as shocked when they actually get in.

>>8764291
>waaah I went into a field because it pays well and its hard

Really?

>>8761020
>lie through their teeth for a couple of extra points.

You mean Asians and Jews do that, just like in every other endeavour they pursue.

>>8764300
>medicine is a high paying job
>therefore we can infringe work hour limits
>we KNOW it's illegal and straight up order students and residents not to report it

Go volunter in Africa asshole. God knows they're in deep need of underpaid selfless cucks such as yourself.

>>8762542
Former Molecular Biology TA here. ALWAYS choose lab. Ideally in some upper-division course instead of introductory whatever. These are the only enjoyable courses to teach.

>>8764329
Did you not think that a job renowned for paying well would have difficulties to balance it out? Suck it up, you made your choice when you decided to pursue the dosh.

>>8764291
Nah you shut up faggot, I am almost out of med school and unlike you I got in knowing all that would happened, not a single person who gets into this field has the right to cry about all that shit because you knew damn well that's how it works and it was YOUR decision to get in anyways. It always the same faggots without passion who cry about this, they want none of the work and all the benefits, fuck you and your kind.

Good for OP and fucking those retards, there is nothing more disgusting than grade whores.

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>>8764079
>>8764169
>What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in Medical School, and I’ve been involved in numerous catheter insertions and digital fecal removals on senior citizens, and I have over 300 confirmed hours awake during residency. I am trained in academic dishonesty and I was the top brown noser in the entire US education system during undergrad. You are nothing to me but just another cuck that I beg for extra points from. I will wipe you the fuck out with numerous emails and office visits begging for extra credit the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of volunteer undergrad hospital slaves across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re fucking done, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill your email and office hours with requests for extra credit in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in the art of begging for grades, but I have access to the entire arsenal of medical professionals and I will use it to its full extent to spam your miserable ass email off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. Your office hours will fill with all the other premeds, kiddo.

Wow man, sounds like you need help! Sure maybe cheating was not the appropriate term, as I should have used academic dishonesty.

>>8762325
Treed

microbio 2nd year masters haven't even gotten a full project and probably worked in lab doing most basic procedures for 10 hours total.
>fucking up writing design
>majorly fucking up in class designed around performing an experiment
>images due on 1st
>haven't even gotten design approved
>TA shit just more work
I'm slipping and fucking up hard for the first time really. not cut out for this this. just drank alone and did nothing all spring break. Too dumb and lazy for this shit. fuck kill me

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>>8764291
dude

>>8764358
>>8764336

>lol look guys he wants the dosh how dare he lets fuck him as much as possible to the point of infringing the law
>lol anon you can't complain in medicine they can fuck you all they want past the point of being illegal and get away with it

Go work for free then you fucking faggots. Why don't you set up a fucking free clinic and start giving away your "gift" if you're so passionate and selfless?

Medicine pays like fucking shit considering the hours you actually work. Do people tell you this? Fuck no. It's illegal and would lead to the shutdown of the residency program. Yet you're supposed to know this? Are you fucking nuts? This is shit my peers have been literally blackmailed over. "You wouldn't want this program shutdown, would you anon? You might have trouble finding another..." You're actually defending this system, you indoctrinated robot?

Excuse me if I don't have any sympathy when some premed whores try to defraud points out of you. Get a taste of your own medicine you fucking faggots

>>8764005
I think you also need to visit another school after that for 2 years for your specialization, but it's not that hard. The only problems are the finals as far as I know.

>>8764396
>Why don't you set up a fucking free clinic and start giving away your "gift" if you're so passionate and selfless?
I actually work in a free clinic m8.

>>8764396
>I only care about money but don't want to work for it
Why not getting into another field retard? If money is what you look for medicine is the last place to get it easy

>>8764169
>Reading books doesn't directly translate into grades either. Does your teacher go to your library and make note of who's reading so he can give extra points later? Fuck no.

Many times my gunner classmates read the books from cover to cover only to discover the faggot teacher would only ask the random niche things he says directly in class and are nowhere to be found in any of the course references. Cue their indignation and frantic argumentation so they can invalidate those two questions that marred their perfect scores. Me? I'm smarter than that: I just record the guy and transcribe the audio later. I know better than to waste time "understanding" material rather than just say whatever it is you faggots want to hear.

This... this can't be real. This is satire right? Am I being trolled?

t. Math major

>>8764467
Of course you do. You just told me you're still in school.

>>8764473
Lol is that what you tell all those premeds you fuck over? That they've been busting ass all these years for nothing?

Medicine actually has plenty of options for people like me who don't enjoy overworking to their deaths. It's just that they aren't immediately apparent. Pretty much every doctor you meet asks you which specialty you want to go into, and you're fucked if it's not the same as their own. Misery absolutely adores company.

>>8764555
You think medicine is mathematics or something? Medicine is simply repetition. It's some kind of bulimic learning process where you stuff your head full of factoids and then vomit it all out on a shitty "exam" some jackass came up with. What you see in practice is but a fraction of what you have to suffer through in school, and that's what you'll end up remembering.

They call this bullshit "learning" and "understanding the material". How's that for some "academic dishonesty" ?

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>>8764555
Nice trips!

>This... this can't be real. This is satire right? Am I being trolled?
A lot of majors do not require the amount of reading that a math major requires. We are often made fun of, but the same people that make fun of us have no idea and would drop a basic "proof writing" class in days, even if they had the prereqs, if they knew the amount of effort required to complete a math degree.

>>8764623
>Iel I don't have to learn shit, just puke everything in the exam, that's what makes me a doctor!
You are one of thousands of retards who become internist and don't know shit about anything and just fucking up everything that they touch, it's retards like you who kill people for thinking they can just spend five years playing the smartass.

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>>8764555
>This... this can't be real. This is satire right? Am I being trolled?
It's not, this is the kind of brutes and sociopaths that get to tend your ass when you are dying. It's a good thing a computer algorithm can do all their "hard work".

There is no premed in my country but these people are always trying to get into medicine because "muh money and respect", in my uni a group of fuckers stole the final grades of a curse in thanatology from the uni office because they got a worse grade than the other classrooms hoping they would have to make the exam again. One even said that the class was unless if he couldn't use it to inflate his grade.

Pathetic really.

>>8764659
Hey I hate those fucking gunner faggots as much as you do. They just annoy you, but they fuck over other actual students much harder.

But really, get off the high horse. The educational system breeds antisocial people like this because that's what it takes to win in those conditions. You fuck over premeds for lying to you? They'll just figure out new ways to get their grades. It's what they do.

>>8764706
? I got good grades doing that "smartass" act, matched into the specialty I actually liked, am currently studying the things I actually care about with zero frivolous bullshit, and there isn't a single asshole "professor" in sight. The end is near. I dunno about you but my patients are very much alive and pretty satisfied.

Best of all I probably did it with half the work YOU put in! Fuck I always loved making those gunner faggots do all the work for me just so they could "shine" and get a 10% higher grade. Whatever floats your boat...

>>8764723
Yeah, call me when empathy and not being a sociopath are traits that contribute to your grade. Last time I checked they didn't. Hell even if they did, sociopaths would just fake them. The system can't tell the difference.

And you're correct that computer algorithms can do much of what's expected from doctors. Even really old expert systems were proven to be more accurate in controlled tests. Why aren't they used? Regulation and legal barriers. I'm actually looking to land a job on that front so I can contribute expert knowledge and improve algorithms.

>>8764755
>And you're correct that computer algorithms can do much of what's expected from doctors. Even really old expert systems were proven to be more accurate in controlled tests. Why aren't they used? Regulation and legal barriers. I'm actually looking to land a job on that front so I can contribute expert knowledge and improve algorithms.

This sounds pretty interesting anon. Im wondering why there are regulations and legal barriers surrounding that

>>8761011
In my school we write exams in pen and half the time we don't even get them back.

>>8764983
Because at some point in the last century the medical associations were granted legal power to regulate medicine. This was the birth of the "rich doctors who love the money" meme by the way. Before that, anybody could be a doctor and wages were at an all-time low.

Anyway, they basically decide what's right and wrong for doctors. Back in the last century, before A.I. lost all credibility with investors, some diagnostic support systems were created and data was compiled that showed they did about as well as or better than doctors for all supported conditions. But their usage by someone who isn't a doctor is essentially illegal practice of medicine so they became tools for medics. Now they're somewhat obscure but people are still working on this stuff. Machine learning is breathing new life into A.I. and with electronic medical records being ubiquitous we have fucktons of data available to work with.

Technology will keep moving on anon. Whether these factoid-memorizing medical dinosaurs like it or not, it doesn't matter. It's already happening. Telemedicine is already big in radiology and pathology, they work from home with zero patient contact and get paid per slide. And it will only get better from there.

One day, you simply won't have to learn as much useless bullshit to be a doctor. You will have proven tools, and you will trust them. And that's a wonderful thing.

>>8765023
>One day, you simply won't have to learn as much useless bullshit to be a doctor. You will have proven tools, and you will trust them. And that's a wonderful thing.

That does sound wonderful, thanks for the interesting reply

saw someone looking at their neighbor's exam really obviously on our last exam, but brainfarted and didn't think to separate the two

the cheater has a zero right now until they manage to argue their way to their assessed grade (still a failing grade)

>>8765023
>anybody could be a doctor and wages were at an all-time low.
quality of medical care was also at an all-time low

>>8765023
Yes. Scientific principles were introduced by that regulatory change. Evidence-based medicine was barely a thing and any quack could pitch their snake oils to customers. Lots of competition

We live in a different world now. A world whose medical schools forced me to memorize gigantic lookup tables in order to "learn" the treatment of diabetes. There's so much evidence available for diabetes we already have actual algorithms, medical programs, in place for dealing with it. Just plug the goddamn patient data in. It's so stupid a computer could do it. Sure, there are special cases and things to watch out for, but they're finite. It just means there's one less thing I need to learn, so I can focus my brain power on more important stuff. One less gigantic table to cram.

So why doesn't the computer do it? It certainly can... The truth is these regulators won't let it do shit unless a doctor is there to "interpret" the results. Wow, a bunch of startup-founding, visionary technologists? In MY healthcare industry? Eroding my power? Not if I have a say! But it's already happening...

If I got a dollar for every time one of my peers fired up a "medical calculator", looked up the dose of some drug or just literally googled diseases straight up, I'd be fucking rich already! Yet medical students are expected to just know this bullshit minutiae by heart? These fucking "exams" aren't representarive of real world conditions where you can just look things up if in doubt. Unless it's a life or death situation where seconds matter, having a general idea of things is enough for most cases and you can easily fill in the blanks. After a while, your brain will cache the common information. Also, with telemedicine you can easily consult a specialist and get his medical opinion in record time.

THAT's what medics have trouble dealing with. They see a tool that helps them do more while knowing less and they see it as an affront against medicine itself.

>>8761011

>am grad student, take theory class
>other grad student (P) takes class with me
>we're both supposed to be theoreticians
>P is misogynistic to female faculty, generally unprofessional and physically unpleasant (licks lips while being spoken to, etc.)
>always asks me how to do homework, spent upwards of half an hour a week with this idiot explaining basic concepts
>never actually show P homework since I suspect he'll snapshot/copy it or something

>fourth week of class, professor shows up angry
>P copied other student's homework and professor noticed
>noticed because he copied it line by line, using same variables
>they were both reprimanded officially (details unknown)

So glad I avoided making a dumb decision. That other student probably just thought he was being nice and expected him to use his homework to get over some misstep P made in his problem but now he has to deal with having a permanent mark on his GRAD expedient that he cheated. Yecch.

>>8765324
Hope the nice guy didn't get fucked over like that. That'd just be a real dick move by the school. If people are going to copy homework, at least have the sense to not make a 1:1 copy for god's sake.

>>8764755
>>8764623

My bad. Called you a tard earlier but that was before you conflated the individual act of cheating with the systemic problems of medical education.

I suppose statanon could bother changing the institutions he reproduces, but it also seems out of anyone's hands. The system statanon reproduces is the one that makes giving premeds Fs satisfying. And it's the same one that pushes premeds to academic dishonesty. It'd be difficult to change the structure without all agents involved, especially the ones with more power.

What did you find most important when you were in medschool?

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I know this is all premed shit, but I recently had to deal with graduates cheating.

>last semester, mixed 400/500 photonics class
>one TA for midterm
>he leaves the room
>kids are passing papers back and forth (they already were known for copying homework constantly)
>nothing happens
>report to online Ethics system
>apparently it was so new my department didn't even know about it
>despite putting my name and contact down (they do allow for anonymity) they just asked the TA and teacher and called it a day, literally without asking any students to come forward

>last month, something set me off, so I report the Ethics people to themselves for being such garbage at their job
>contacted by director of my undergraduate program, that's how I learned nothing happened from the last report
>said "that's disgusting, if I see them again I'll hurt them"
>I became the problem
>called in, co-director gives me long sob story that they try hard to stop cheaters, and supposedly literally at least half of one of my previous classes was copying homework off the internet
>co-director shows me an email detailing some department stuff, including that they take cheating seriously
>email is sent more than two weeks late, it literally says we should go to the job fair which happened more than 10 days previous
I can't take higher education seriously at all. From the rich spoiled kids to cheaters and horrible bureaucracy, it's all just a joke.
>when kids GOING INTO THEIR FUCKING MBA were just giving other students data from labs because the others were too shit to do it right
>when a student would just walk up to like 10 people and say "so who has my homework for X class?"
>when my school is actually said to be a good institution and is known for producing "competent" graduates

>>8764723
>in my uni a group of fuckers stole the final grades of a curse in thanatology
>curse in thanatology
lemme guess, the prof involved was Professor Hix? at Unseen University in Ankh-Morpork?

>>8765757
>change

Well I agree that it's out of everybody's hands. This results in premeds being pissed at the system and trying to game it, and the system being pissed at them and trying to fuck them over. Not a pretty sight. It continues on in medical school too.

The key to change is getting rid of this hypercompetition. It's just bullshit and meaningless and just isn't necessary. Family medicine is actually one of the greatest things ever invented in medicine; the entire thing is built around the "20% of the work gives you 80% of the results" idea. It's efficient from an educational point of view and would result in more doctors for everyone. Sadly, it just doesn't pay as well and everybody treats you like you're still a wet medical student. Off to radiology everybody goes...

>What did you find most important

Without a doubt, the classes where I actually practiced medicine in the clinic and hospital.

It was a lot easier to look at the patient and see what's going on for myself, than it was to cram the stuff. Similarly, by treating those problems enough times, eventually it became second nature to me.

>>8765800
It's an undermining of institutional credentials for the sake of personal worldviews. Being competent is a waste of time to them if it means reading the material and applying very specified pedagogical practices. It's the last bit of freedom they can exercise when they cut corners for a shit deal with the educational system to get better paying 9-5s. If these guys are MBAs then the last thing on their minds is 'unapplicable' and 'irrelevant' coursework.

If anything, the school admin's lackluster response would be the most revealing. Education isn't education. It hasn't been for the longest time. Bureaucracy and institution killed that spirit of learning. All that's left is getting that degree to sustain whatever aspirations they have. It's still a shit deal for them at the end of the day, cheating's more of an acting out from deadlock.

Which is why I sometimes think NEETs have it good, learning at their own pace sustained by welfare.

What bothers you about cheating the most?

>>8765800
Over the summer I taught the lowest level course at my university, where we literally start by teaching them how to add fractions.

Caught two athletes cheating, both had the exact same wrong answer that clearly resulted from one of them pushing the wrong button on a calculator, and the other one copying it.

Technically the uni has this stupid policy (that certain other profs don't follow or even know about) where we are not supposed to punish students for cheating without reporting them and having a hearing. Like I'm not supposed to do ANYTHING without the hearing, even though when I talked to the students about it one of them admitted to cheating.

So I report them and we have the hearing. Their coach comes, and they change their story. They deny cheating now. They claim that one of them asked me whether the answer was right and during the test I walked over, looked at her test, READ THE ANSWER OUT LOUD, and said "yes thats correct", and so the other student heard me and wrote down that answer.

The hearing found that they did not cheat.

Two athletes will most likely graduate my university without knowing how to add fractions.

>>8765800
Whatever. What's the fucking point anyway? If your homework answers can be Googled, what's the fucking point? Those graduates are probably competent regardless of how much homework they did. Hell I never do any homework myself because I don't give a fuck, and I passed with good grades. What good is your homework if I'm good enough to get good grades WITHOUT doing any of it? What's the point? There is no point.

Why don't you turn things around and design questions that would be hard to answer, even if the entire class collaborated together and Googled to their heart's content? Now that's one hell of an idea. Teaches teamwork and encourages making proper use of available resources, mirroring a real world situation while simultaneously presenting a challenge.

You need to realize that systems that depend on people being honest are broken by default. As broken as politics. Sure, it's cathartic to watch a YouTube video of some angry professor lecturing his class about how he knows they cheated because the grades distribution is bimodal and "you better turn themselves in or else I'll fuck you for the rest of your life". It's righteous as fuck. It's also useless. It can't change human nature. It's just people gaming each other, the learning became secondary what with all the sneaky tactics and retribution that's going on.

Report your classmates for cheating? You've just turned into the snitch... NOBODY likes that fucker. Why did the school even let it get to that point? Why have a situation where it's possible to cheat? Makes no fucking sense!

Truth be told, in real life a lot of answers really are a Google away, and the work of others is constantly reused. Better get used to it.

>>8765848
Most of my peers and I can't do long division. I actually find it easier to solve that problem by trial-and-error multiplication because it's such a straightforward operation. I got good at estimating the initial numbers and arrive at the solution pretty quickly.

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>>8765848
>Two athletes will most likely graduate my university without knowing how to add fractions.

>when premeds blame the school when they get caught cheating
>when cashiers blame the business when they get caught stealing
You're going god's work OP, just get them out of our faces

Hey gradfags what's your best advice you'd give to a B.A.Sc. undergraduate student who's kinda struggling but aspires to be a straight A student?

Like some studying tips maybe?

>>8766111
What field are you in?

My advice is posted above: lab experience, TA experience, good rec letters, and getting your name on things is more important than GPA.

Unless by grad school you mean a terminal masters or engineering and other applied stuff.

>>8765324
>licks lips while being spoken to, etc.

Wait, this is bad? What the fuck? I do this all the time because my lips get dry. Why doesn't anyone tell you this shit?
God damn.

>>8765876
They will graduate without doing the most basic of basic shit you can do, and you will also graduate without knowing how to do even the most basic shit of their sport.

That is how the real world works. Congrats, you just realized that the education system is dumb and that only rich/talented people can pull the strings to move around the swamp it is.

>>8766555
>Wait, this is bad?
No, not unless you're doing something retarded like slowly licking around your lips in a circle like a horny cartoon character.

Wetting your lips is completely normal.

>Tfw BS bio
>having trouble figuring out what MS will work best for the biochem/pharma industry

>>8766635
Computational bio/chem or synthetic bio

Any med students got tips for a Premed? There's a "Premed frat" at my school for the people who can't back up the fact that they're Premed with their grades. I've noticed a correlation between that and most of the grade grubbers
> Be in Organic Chem last year
>Premed frat bro submits exam regrade form for 3-4 points on a question
>Tenured chemistry wizard Prof has warned that he regrades the entire exam
>Frat bro gets his 3 points back, but loses 11 more on other questions

>>8766956
>loses 11 more on other questions

Wot

So he purposefully gives points away for free and takes them back if people complain?

>>8766956
And yeah I got the only advice you'll ever need in premed and med school:

Don't be a gunner.

Guys, how do I get a summer research position?

I've really found my passion area of study, but no professors at my school are really involved in it, so I've basically been flying solo.

I want to do a PhD, and I really think a good summer research experience is what I need to get into a good school, but I have no networking or connections in this field.

Should I just cold email professors and see what happens?

>>8767107
His philosophy is that regrade requests should not be made for handfuls of points here and there and only saved for serious, inexcusable grading errors (ie adding up points wrong etc) and in doing so save his and the TAs' time

>>8767113
What's a gunner? The only other meaning of that word I know is as a nickname for Artillery soldiers.

>>8766566
I didn't know I went to college with the expectation that I achieve mastery in football.

>>8767107
It's usually the TAs who do the first round of grading amd they're usually more lenient than the person teaching the class

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>>8767293

>What's a gunner

Picture related.

>>8767314
Well that makes sense.

My school's version of TAs don't really grade student exams for some reason. They mostly just give us tips before exams, answer questions and revise material. I saw anatomy TAs grading tests in my first semester of school but never again.

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>two months into Masters project
>have first committee meeting, prepare a 20 minute presentation
>it takes two full fucking hours to get through it with all the interruptions and questions from committee members
>can only answer maybe half the questions I'm asked
>spend two hours standing in front of a bunch of professors feeling like a full-blown retard while presenting background info I don't fully understand
>spend the entire time thinking about how my PI is going to take a shit on my fucking chest after this train wreck of a meeting is over
>it finally ends
>committee and PI are both super impressed
>get a grade of 85%
>wat.

Guess they had low expectations.

At what point do you stop feeling like a retarded undergrad though? Does it ever end?

>>8767330
Ah yes I know the type of person you mean

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>>8766956

What did he do anon

>>8767372
He is what other anons described as a "gunner".
>Always trying to answer every question the professor asks in the hope of currying favor and getting a recommendation letter.
>I go to a really big university so getting a professor to know your face requires effort
>The crowning irony was that he was rather bad at Organic chemistry and tried to cover up his lack of knowledge by being as loud as possible
>I'm not sure what he's doing now, but seeing his ashen face after getting his regraded exam back was fucking great after seeing him trying to brown nose for a whole semester

>>8767345
That's how all committee meetings go. You're not expected to be an expert in the field and be able to answer all questions until you actually defend your thesis. The early meetings are just probing the limits of your knowledge.

>>8767392
How to tell gunners apart from really enthusiastic people though?

In a couple classes I made a point to engage myself as much as I could because I actually liked them a lot. Hope I wasn't hated on too much... Also answer questions meant for other people if they signal that they don't know and I happen to... But it's really because I want to go the fuck home and things don't move forward until the preceptor is done with his pimping.

>>8767397
>You're not expected to be an expert in the field and be able to answer all questions until you actually defend your thesis.

Makes sense, sure is a bizarre feeling though. Like getting a 40% on an exam and then having the professor congratulate you for not scoring a 20%.

>>8767116
you should apply for REU unless you want to work for free. i doubt any professor will take you on for just the summer and pay you.

>>8762132
THIS! IS! COLLEGE! You get busted cheating, the least they will do is most certainly NOT let you redo that which you cheated on. Worst they do for first-time offenders here is an automatic 0 on the assignment for something minor or an automatic course F for a midterm or final. Repeat offenders can be up for higher penalties straight away, up to expulsion.

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>>8767414
Just don't interupt others if they're trying to answer the teacher's question. It's completely find to answer the queston if the person asked can't answer it/nobody else is trying to answer or straight up unable to give the correct answer.

IMO, frequently shouting out the answers doesn't go well with the other students. You'll be seen as an obnoxous know-it-all. Plus keep in mind, that you're not the only one who wants to participate.

>>8765293
Yea, I remember one of my microbio professors who was previously a doctor mentioning that he thought it was pointless to have to memorize all the individual organisms when anyone in practice googles that shit.

>>8767392
If you want your professor to know your face go to office hours, If they see you show up ready to engage them, they'll know you

That or just get good grades and be funny

>>8767604
Especially the student's that basically regurgitate the textbook. I'd much rather hear you answer the question in a manner of speaking that shows you thought about it and re-framed what you've learned in your own words than an exact textbook definition.

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>>8767345
>Guess they had low expectations.
No man that's not it.

>be me/OP
>have BS and MS in Math
>have two theses done

Oral exams are more of a stump the chump ordeal. You're good and will very very likely pass if they are ready for you to sit them. I learned this after my MS and now, 3 years into a PhD my advisor jokes with me all the time about it, you learn to let somethings go.

As an undergrad, you NEED to know the material. As a grad you should know a bit more, but not be afraid to question conventional wisdom within reason. The focus is more on your ability to reason through a problem, and at least publish something.

>>8767314
I had an experience completely polar to this one time, for a combinatorics course.

She had absolutely no clue about anything in the course and graded everything by how much it matched the answer key. If you solved/proved anything in a different way than the key solution, or you did some steps in a different order, immediately your paper got X'd and you lost all points on the rest of the solution.

Me and several people I know had to go in for remarks and some of us gained over 30% on them.

Generally speaking you're correct though. TAs don't want to be caught doing a shitty job and nobody will complain about lax marking, whereas lots will complain if you're a nazi about it.

>>8767637
Funny. My microbiology professor was pretty big on rote memorization.

She'd quiz us on minutiae. Imagine 30+ questions of the most specific kind possible. She probably ran her fingers through her slides, picked some factoid at random and said "I'm gonna quiz the students about this", repeat 30 times. It just fucking pissed me off. Surely there were better questions to ask?

The irony is I fucking loved microbiology. I hated it at first because of her, but one day I randomly started reading about bacteria on Wikipedia of all things and it was fucking amazing. Wikipedia saved me so many times during presentations it's not even funny. I should probably donate or something.

>>8767677
So what is the process of publishing a math paper like? Somehow I don't picture you guys collecting data...

>all these brainlet apologists
take the risk, pay the price.
i got my low grades back with a cringe, and i learned from the experience. next semester i'll be starting grad school for Physics.

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>>8767755
It really depends on your area in math.

>undergrad
>GIS REU
>they need a programmer
>got papers in geology journals
>only solved problems that I did not know were unsolved
>wtf yeah grad app.gif

>studying for MS in Math
>industry job watch out.exe
>fuckanalysis.png
>just want to study numerical methods and stats
>bored and start wondering
>it's going somewhere
>oh this shit's cool.jpg
>what can I do if I relax this
>troll a few definitions.png
>it leads somewhere
>get a theory paper
>run it on a few public data sets
>two papers
>professors are like go to PhD program anon
>okay fuck it why not

It helps to have professors that are not only pure math, but use lab data (PI INSISTS on being last author for grant reasons) to answer a question. I like stats and am only a ABD -- studying stats now -- now, but my academic preparation made me /fit/ for stats. I am a total brainlet, but hardwork does pay off!!!

Next post will be about submitting a paper in case that was your question.

So 1/2

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>>8767755
So I forgot to check your double dubs in my last post >>8767829 So checked.

Pure math, applied math, and stats can vary depending on the subject of the paper, and the focus of the journal.

I have a good friend in pure math and these are pretty much the outlines.

Intro:
*wgaf about this paper
>brainlet and tard (YEAR) blah blah blah
Motivation/Inspiration:
>I watched my dog dookie and thought about
(the last is a bad example but you get the point)
Proof:
>fuck yeah this is what you are here for
Optional:
>maybe a conclusion
References:
>self explanatory

Applied math and stats usually are a mix of the above with a few applications on existing data sets. Some sections may be longer depending on the journals audience.

Once you submit, you might be approved for publication right away, or maybe some questions/additional material might need to be provided.

>FUCK THAT 3RD REVIEWER
>3RD REVIEWER ALWAYS NEEDS MORE
>3RD REVIEWER WILL MAKE YOUR LIFE HELL

Once that's cleared you're good to go. Now prepare for bogus journal spam. Also start looking for conferences to present your findings.

Any other questions, don't be afraid to ask. If i am not online, then I am sure someone else will answer.

Like I said initially, it really is field dependent.

>>8761069
is it fair for me to blame premeds for destroying my passion for science

for my biochem exam which we got to use calcs on (lol) i only studied nomenclature and just typed the names of every process in my calculator how does that make you feel

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>>8768111
Enjoy your lack of understanding calculator cuck!

Just saying but even with a perfect gpa and mcat the second you have an IA for cheating no school will accept you. So good job OP

>>8767310
Well, they did. But because of retarded regulations you can't graduate people with just football (even though those millionaire football players are clearly more adapted to the professional world than any of us).

Imagine if the roles were flipped. To get your degree in STEM you also had to play university-level football. If you don't pass your football requirement then you get kicked out. Just imagine how unfair that shit would be.

>>8768853
>implying that academics aren't of greater importance than athletics in the missions of colleges
this is why UChicago is better than most of the Ivies even, and the SEC is thoroughly meh.

>still thinking that being a college star guarantees success in professional leagues

>>8762329
Where?

>>8768943
>>implying that academics aren't of greater importance than athletics in the missions of colleges

They are, but it is also important to recognize that colleges don't have one single mission.

They have a mission schema, so to speak. This mission schema is to take every student they accept and turn them into the best, most succesful professional he can be in his field.

If you take a mathematician then your goal should be to make that guy the best mathematician he can be.

If you take an athlete then the same. And as I said before, to empathize with these people you should picture a world in which physical education was still mandatory for university.

Do you remember PE back in middle and high school? I do. It was shit. Because of it I understand the plights of these people, even though I don't know any athlete personally.

>>still thinking that being a college star guarantees success in professional leagues

I don't think that, but I also think that is their fucking problem.

With how much athletes cheat on university it is clear they don't give a single shit. JUST FUCK IT. Let them graduate with just their athletic qualifications and if one of them doesn't end up making it in the pro leagues then that is his fucking problem.

On the other hand, responsible students who see this possibility will still do their homework and study. Again, their problem, their choice.

>>8768545
>the tards who got caught "cheating" are blacklisted forever
>the smarter ones get in and evolve their deception even further

You people are like antibiotics.

>tfw grad prof doesn't know what she is doing

>>8769231
so they should stop trying to catch cheaters or what?

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>>8765848
O_o story time about athletes.

I was tasked to teach a statistics course last summer. Sure no biggie right? Yeah, no. We have three levels of statistics here.

>super brainlet tier: plug it into your calculator and write down answer
>brainlet tier: no calculus, just focus on concepts
>regular tier: calculus based math stats for math majors

I had to teach the brainlet tier one. I noticed that it was a closed course requiring special permission to register. Okay not a big deal, whatever. A few weeks before I am instructed that I will be teaching to athletes only. Okay, again no biggie. I am then informed that I will need to teach the super brainlet tier material to them but they will receive credit for the brainlet tier course.

>go to chair to bitch
>it's out of my hands anon go to dean if you want
>dean tells me some bullshit excuse but deal with it because they bring donations and money from games to school "try to be understanding"

I hated teaching those fuckers initially because I thought it was bullshit that they were getting credit for a more difficult course while only being tested on the material for the easier course.

To add insult to injury, the chair forced me to use quizzes and exams from the lower course.

I stopped getting pissed at them for those reasons, but became mad at just how little they knew, while remembering the dean's bs excuse.

>>8767113

What's a "gunner"?

Premed here, chemistry major. I work hard in my classes and do everything in my power to get As. I do submit for regrades sometimes, but I'm one of the best students in my Chem classes and I help explain things to my friends if they're stuck. I don't care about the curve because I'm usually topping it.

Is that being a gunner?

>>8761011
Just finished what is considered to be the cutting course for my program a few days ago. I asked an older grad student why we don't have comprehensives and his answer was "We have this class." Currently grinding out the "ungraded, but very closely watched" by senior PIs laboratory portion of the course while chugging out code for a collaborator and putting in the minimum to get my PI of my ass for the duration of the course. It hasn't been working. In desperation, I caved to his insane request to section and frost mount a whole mouse brain at 10 microns. As I post this, I am only half way done after 5 hours and it is very clearly fucked up beyond repair.

>>8767107
I do this when I TA. If I'm curving anyways and a score is borderline, I will err on the side of generosity and save myself the trouble of one more student bitching the next quarter about having to retake my class.

Often times, they are too stupid to accept the situation for what it is and try to look a gift horse in the mouth. I tend to be a lot less generous when they press their luck.

>>8769425
They should have simply denied their idiotic requests. Those premeds were fucking faggots, but they weren't really cheating.

Cheating means you had unfair advantages DURING the test. As in, having access to secret reference materials that nobody else can use. That test score doesn't really represent how well the cheater did compared with everyone else. It's just a bullshit number. That's why it's bad.

Those premeds though had already taken the tests and likely didn't cheat during the process. Then they tried to gaslight the teacher after-the-fact and instead of saying "no, that's wrong", OP got offended and fucked them over in a way that basically ruined their academic lives.

Hey, if you're going to stoop to that level then at least admit that you want to fuck them over instead of hiding behind this "academic dishonesty" bullshit. It's all a game, and we're all playing it. Get off that high horse.

If you actually think it's going to "stop cheating/academic dishonesty/random buzzword" then that's where you're mistaken. I'm sure it feels good to fuck over that student... But really, you're just selecting stronger pathogens and believe me, they will thrive.

Premeds probably don't stick around long enough to really figure you out and teach the new generation of students how to thrive in your habitat.

In my medical school experience, every single semester would start with a mass profiling of all professors. We'd ask veterans of the courses and they'd tell us exactly which were trouble and which were cool. They had you people fully mapped out. From personal boundaries to the style of questions -- everything was analysed.

We knew exactly what buttons to push and how to push them in order to get what we wanted. We knew exactly what people liked to ask about on tests. We all did everything to maximize our chances.

Honestly, this is some seriously sociopathic shit... But when you're against people like the OP, it suddenly turns into a great idea.

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>>8769942
Gunnery is fucking your friends over just to be the "top" guy. You're a gunner when you "exceed expectations" by stepping all over your colleagues.

Gunnery is talking with the attending when everybody else just wants to go the fuck home. It's pulling random uncalled for articles out of your ass to "impress" the attending while everyone else stands there looking retarded. It's coming to the hospital early to see other people's patients and then showing them up when they drop the ball. It's telling your "friends" the wrong information, or teaching them incorrectly on purpose, in order to get them to fuck up.

>>8768106
If you keep on it, it will destroy way more than your passion for science. Either you become a chad getting drunk every night or learn to hate stupid people.

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>>8770920
>Cheating means you had unfair advantages DURING the test. As in, having access to secret reference materials that nobody else can use.
so if a student broke into their professor's office, went through their desk, and changed some grades, you wouldn't consider that cheating?
>But really, you're just selecting stronger pathogens and believe me, they will thrive.
your argument is basically "we shouldn't arrest people for assault, because the cartels get away with murder and we're just selecting for scarier street criminals".
>instead of saying "no, that's wrong", OP got offended and fucked them over in a way that basically ruined their academic lives.
in other words, some people tried to cheat, got caught, and were made examples of. this is university, not high school; playtime is ogre. I see nothing wrong here.
play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

>>8771505
Not him but I would call it fraud or attempted fraud, not cheating.

>>8771516
follow-up question: do you think academic fraud should be punished lightly or severely?

>>8771516
That's what I think too.

>>8771505
>so if a student broke into their professor's office, went through their desk, and changed some grades, you wouldn't consider that cheating?

Of course not. Their original score still stands. Go ahead and say they hacked the computer. That's the actual crime. Don't go around lying to people saying they cheated.

Someone legitmately scores 90% on the test, hacks the computer and changes it to 100%, you find out and give them 0% as "punishment"... Which grade is more representative of his performance?

You might as well say "I don't like you asshole. Enjoy your zero."

>your argument is basically "we shouldn't arrest people for assault, because the cartels get away with murder and we're just selecting for scarier street criminals".

Crimimals? What the fuck... Those guys are more like gamblers. You're basically taking away their "profit" and adding them to a permanent "bad people" database. Some "justice" you got there.

>in other words, some people tried to cheat, got caught, and were made examples of. this is university, not high school; playtime is ogre. I see nothing wrong here.

Nobody "cheated" asshole. Your job is to simply deny their fucking request. You read it, it's obviously based on invalid/doctored evidence, you say no.

Wanna make examples out of people and fuck them over? Then fucking own up to it and stop making bullshit excuses to cover it up. You want to fuck them over. Fucking admit it.

You could have handled it in numerous ways and you chose to ruin some person's medical school dreams, maybe even their chances at higher education in general. Some imprudent driver cuts you off in transit, do you drive up to him and "make an example out of him" by shooting him in the face?

Violence is what you do to force people to change their behavior. You're being violent. And it's not self-defense either. You're looking for excuses to shoot people.

>play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Takes two to play.

>>8772156
That's why the general term is "academic dishonesty" rather than "cheating". The word "cheating" is used colloquially though.

The idea is that your grade should be based on honesty. Any attempt at deception, whether that may be direct cheating, plagiarism, lying to improve your grade, etc. may result in a punitive grade being given.

You can disagree all you like but this is a nearly universal policy

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>>8772156
this guy, seriously...
You're getting all misty-eyed over people getting punished for breaking the (pretty damn easy to follow) rules?
>You're basically taking away their "profit" and adding them to a permanent "bad people" database. Some "justice" you got there.
Justice isn't just taking back what someone "stole". Without some kind of additional punitive measure, there's no deterrence against such theft. This is a basic principle in any sort of legal system. (Think about it; wouldn't you be more likely to cheat if you knew the worst that would happen is that you'd keep your original grade and get informally reprimanded?)
>you chose to ruin some person's medical school dreams maybe even their chances at higher education in general.
Nobody else made them cheat on a test, or plagiarize a paper off the internet, or break into their professor's office. They did that to themselves. You sound like the asshole who gives a rapist probation because he "doesn't want to ruin a promising young man's life over a little mistake he made". Fuck you, there are rules for a reason. And when you break them, you get punished.
>Violence is what you do to force people to change their behavior. You're being violent. And it's not self-defense either. You're looking for excuses to shoot people.
Nibba you have GOT to be trolling at this point. Because I think that there should be punishments for cheating and fraud, I'm looking for an excuse to shoot someone?

You must have gotten failed for getting caught cheating or something. Nobody's naturally this whiny and autismal.

>>8772225
Yes and the punishment for perjury should be that your testimony is ignored and the judge says "nice try" and just laughs it off

>>8761069
Don't diss chegg yo, I'm making good money off of lazy people

I'm undergrad, major in both mathematics and physics.

I've noticed a strange pattern. My physics professors consistently fuck up grading my exams, labs, and homework. They count off for things that are blatantly correct or have large discrepancies on grading problems when me and another student have exactly the same answers. I'm very polite when I mention this stuff, but several times I've gone in to notify them of a mistake and was told they would fix my grade and it's never happened. I've gotten to the point where I don't even go in to ask for my points back because it is so consistent and I am terrified of getting a reputation as a shitter, but these teachers are seriously making mistakes and it's very frustrating.
My one physics professor in particular gives terrible feedback on graded reports or problems usually just writing "?" next to a section he has decided is wrong. If I try to ask him what he meant he usually just grunts and gives a single sentence, or maybe only a few words response.

My mathematics professors, on the other hand, I think have never made a single mistake grading an assignment that I can recall. Very strange.

>>8771537
Why not simply rectify the error and call it a day?

OP demonstrated that he has the means to detect fraud. The question is: what is he going to use that ability for? Will he use it to prove his grading correct? Or will he use it as a triage method for "bad characters" that he thinks should be permanently excluded them from higher education?

You're all dealing with fucking teenagers and young adults here.Testing the limits of society is what they do best. We've all been there. Why the fuck would you blackball some kid out of academia forever because he made a stupid decision and tried to trick you into increasing his grade? Are you for real? That's just fucking sociopathic if you ask me. As if grades even mattered for shit other than achieving one's objectives. He was obviously obsessing over his GPA and his odds of getting into medical school.

The real reason is you people don't give a fuck. You don't care about being constructive and finding a win-win solution for everyone. You want to win, but you also want to ensure that he loses in multiple ways. You go out of your way to make it happen. Do you say no to his lies? No, too easy. Do you bring him in for a frank, no-bullshit conversation where you explain how likely that behavior is to get him into deep shit and screw him out of medical school, thereby *GASP* EDUCATING him? Fuck no. What do you do? You fuck his grades and then permaban him from academia so that you don't need to "deal with him" anymore. You people even have the gall to say "academic dishonesty".

His fuckup is an opportunity for growth. He could grow as a human being -- he could come to understand why that shit isn't going to help him in any way, and he could stop doing it. You're denying him that. You don't really give a shit what happens to him.

>>8772179
Grades should be based on the objective test he turned in. You're confounding things by implicitly adding honesty to the mix.

People can be really smart and also "dishonest". The premed OP dealt with was obviously in this camp. Why should he be excluded solely based on his "dishonesty"? Makes no fucking sense.

>universal policy

Yeah like that zero tolerance bullshit that helps absolutely nobody except the school?

It's universal because it's the easy way out. Doesn't make it right or honorable.

>>8772225
I'm getting misty-eyed over you people being fucking faggots and high fiving each other as if fucking over a premed was your life's greatest achievement.

>Justice isn't just taking back what someone "stole".

That's exactly what it is asshole. If you cause damage, you pay it back in full. You don't pay 20x the amount just because the other guy "wants to teach you a lesson". That's vengeance.

Are you a chinese motherfucker who makes the guy who bumped into you in the street beg for forgiveness or forfeit his life?

>Without some kind of additional punitive measure, there's no deterrence against such theft. This is a basic principle in any sort of legal system.

Newsflash you're not the fucking legal system! You're there to educate people. You just failed to educate that "cheater". All he learned was "wow this fucking asshole teacher figured out what I was up to, better no try that on him anymore". You're actually proud of this shit?

Why wouldn't he keep your grade in this case? He fucking earned it. He tried to fight for more -- does that justify you screwing him over like that? Fuck no.

>Nobody else made them cheat on a test, or plagiarize a paper off the internet, or break into their professor's office. They did that to themselves. You sound like the asshole who gives a rapist probation because he "doesn't want to ruin a promising young man's life over a little mistake he made". Fuck you, there are rules for a reason. And when you break them, you get punished.

That guy goes to prison because he represents a danger to society. He uses violence to overpower victims and get what he wants. The prison exists for the express purpose of removing him from that society.

What danger does a fucking premed represent to you? OP proved he was able to deal with his bullshit requests just fine. How is that not enough?

Let the "punishment" fit the crime asshole. I'd back you up if that premed had blackmailed OP into doing his bidding but this is just petty.

>>8772225

>Nibba you have GOT to be trolling at this point. Because I think that there should be punishments for cheating and fraud, I'm looking for an excuse to shoot someone?

You're aggressively punishing students. There's a difference between assertiveness and aggressiveness. You're not just defending the score you assigned him, you're going out of your way to kill his academic and medical career as "punishment" over a slight.

Someone steps on your property, you chase him away until he leaves your territory. What you don't do is chase him all the way over the street and onto HIS property and shoot him dead for the "insult". That's called crossing the line twice.

Yeah he fucked up trying to gaslight the teacher. Does that justify this disproportionate distribution? Fuck no.

You're like a trigger-happy gun nut whose finger is just itching for action. You can't wait for the day some poor fucker tries to mess with you...

>You must have gotten failed for getting caught cheating or something. Nobody's naturally this whiny and autismal.

I've never cheated in my life you prick. I don't even know how to cheat. So now everyone who calls you out on your fucking bullshit you label a cheater as well? How dare he defend the "cheater", he must be one... Do you literally not realize how stupid you sound?

I'm just chronically allergic to asshole teachers such as yourself. You people have approximately 0 power over me and you still piss me off with your utterly pathetic power trips.

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>>8761011
You did the right thing OP, don't let any salty faggot make you think otherwise.

OP didn't go far enough. In a truly just world the students would be decapitated in front of the others, and their families would be banished to the ocean

>>8770950
>It's coming to the hospital early to see other people's patients and then showing them up when they drop the ball.
I kinda do that but because I am a foreign student and have nothing to do the whole day so I just stay in the hospital longer than the rest but if someone fucks up I don't help them since is not my patient.

>>8772441
You seem upset Dr. Salt.

>>8772446
If you're not actively fucking over your colleagues, you're not a gunner. Doesn't sound like you're actively making people look like a dolt in front of the attending...

>>8772319
He'll never grow as a human being if he doesn't face consequences.
The one thing you can be sure of when you catch a cheater is that it isn't the first time they've cheated. Cheating isn't so much an action as it is a mindset. It needs to be made clear to cheaters that they are not welcome.

>>8772370
>helps absolutely nobody except the school?
The school's reputation is at stake. It is sensible for someone acting on behalf of the school to act in accordance with the school's best interest. The TA is not working for the student, the TA is working for the school. If punishing academic dishonesty helps nobody but the school, the school should continue to do it. It preserves the school's accreditation. Undermining academic honesty de-values the credentials of everyone at the school. So, by punishing dishonest students, the school preserves the value of the education other students receive. Wow, sure sounds like punishing cheaters helps both the school AND the non-cheaters! I guess you were just wrong and a faggot, after all.

>>8772453
I am. Those little shits tried to cheat. That's against the rules. Everyone else is working hard while these dickholes try to just fuck everyone in the ass. They should be expelled from the university and the planet Earth.

>>8772319
>Why not simply rectify the error and call it a day?
because I don't have a time machine to go back and force the offending students mothers to abort

>>8772468
There's no evidence he cheated during the exam. As far as I know from what OP let on, the grade he originally got was 100% legit. It's when he tried to fish some points out of OP that the shit started.

Do you agree?

>>8772469
Guess what? Saying "no, I won't change your grade because your evidence contradicts what we have on record" to the premed would have "protected the school's reputstion" just as well.

You just look weak when you do this kind of stunt. Wow... How powerless are you against "cheaters" that you need to threaten all sorts of disproportional punishment to deter them? Goddamn, those "cheaters" must be some high caliber criminals to justify this... But it's just a premed.

>>8772319
>Why not simply rectify the error and call it a day?
That's just encouraging cheating. Think about it. The student can either cheat or not cheat. Normally, heavy penalties are given out for cheating so the advantage the student could gain from cheating looks small in comparison and the rational decision becomes not to cheat. If there is no penalty for cheating, then the cheating student has absolutely nothing to lose, as well as a possible gain if they don't get caught. The rational decision, then, is to cheat.
>He was obviously obsessing over his GPA and his odds of getting into medical school
Boo hoo. So are thousands of other students who are doing so honestly.
>Do you bring him in for a frank, no-bullshit conversation where you explain how likely that behavior is to get him into deep shit
No, you *show* him how likely it is to get him into deep shit by getting him in deep shit. You can't wrap people in cotton wool all their lives and tell them "oh, in the future this might get you in trouble, but I'll let you off this time".
>His fuckup is an opportunity for growth. He could grow as a human being
I agree. He needs to be punished so he can grow as a human being. Otherwise he will keep doing the same shit because he knows there are no consequences.

>>8772502
He tried to con OP into giving him marks he knew he didn't deserve. That's cheating.

>>8772502
He lied, so his tongue should be cut off.

Had he cheated during the test we would cut off whichever hand he used to write with.

>>8772473
Nah the F was enougth for now, they might get expelled if they get caught again, which would be good.

>>8772511
OP can just say no. Doesn't invalidate the grade he got.

>>8772507
>That's just encouraging cheating. Think about it. The student can either cheat or not cheat. Normally, heavy penalties are given out for cheating so the advantage the student could gain from cheating looks small in comparison and the rational decision becomes not to cheat. If there is no penalty for cheating, then the cheating student has absolutely nothing to lose, as well as a possible gain if they don't get caught. The rational decision, then, is to cheat.

No, that's just magical thinking. You think "if I do X, he won't do Y" even though no such deal exists. What do you know... There are crazy motherfuckers who are going to do it anyway.

It just increases the risk associated with cheating. It will happen when the stakes are big enough, and believe me people aren't going to just get caught like that. The "rational decision" turns into "cheat if it's worth it and your tradecraft is good enough".

>Boo hoo. So are thousands of other students who are doing so honestly.

Yeah so? Not everybody is going to deal with that stress in the same manner. He made stupid decision. The right way to deal with it is to tell him "no". I'm sure his competitors are rooting for the OP, though.

>No, you *show* him how likely it is to get him into deep shit by getting him in deep shit. You can't wrap people in cotton wool all their lives and tell them "oh, in the future this might get you in trouble, but I'll let you off this time".
>I agree. He needs to be punished so he can grow as a human being. Otherwise he will keep doing the same shit because he knows there are no consequences.

Yeah, let's kill people's careers over the slightest bullshit.

I bet he'd be a great doctor.

>>8772370
It's not a "zero tolerance policy" they just have to take the class again

>>8772541
That's not what OP said. I wouldn't be posting in that case.

No -- OP bragged about how his school put a "cheating" mark on the guy's record, implying no medical school will accept him now. That's just fucking sociopathic, and a lie to boot.

>>8772550
What if the policy was to give them whatever grade they would have gotten, but to still put the "cheat" mark on the transcript?

Would that make you happy?

>>8772565
>the policy is to fuck him, but without letting him know he's fucked until much later

He didn't cheat.

>>8772573
OK so how about a nice "academic dishonesty" mark? Or just a sentence on the transcript explaining exactly what he did?

>>8767116
What anon said, REU is the way to go, although most of the application deadlines have passed. I lucked out with my REU when the prof. I worked under was big into the REU program at my school so he just let me in after I showed genuine interest. Emailing profs is a crapshoot at the rate of emails they get and the swamp of other work they have to deal with. Go to their office hours or talk to them after class and show genuine interest. What you do in undergrad research often has zero bearing on what you do in grad school, it's just another possible indicator that you have your shit together.
Scholarships might still be available that pay undergrads to do summer research.

>>8772573
>He didn't cheat.
caught cheating detected

amazing semantics brother

he tried to fuck, he got fucked in return

cry more faggot

>>8772579
Don't fucking saying anything at all. Just don't change his grade.

>>8772640
Yeah fuck you too.

>>8772645
>Don't fucking saying anything at all.
Why? Why does such behavior should be allowed? He got what was coming to him.

>>8772652
It's not allowed. You just tell him no. That's what "not allowing it" means. Fuck.

>>8772319

This poster is Satan.

>>8772573
>He didn't cheat.
But they tried to, and that's enough. Had they succeeded, they would have been guilty of cheating at that point.

It undermines the school's reputation, the worth of its degree, and the worth of degrees everywhere if it becomes known that cheating is simply acknowledged with a wink and a nod.

There's also the issue of personal integrity. This kind of person is far more likely to alter charts, obfuscate data to protect himself, tell outright lies to get ahead / undermine others, etc., and he needs to be culled immediately. He's shown he can't be trusted.

>>8772656
>we should just allow people to keep attempting to lie and/or steal as many times as they want

>>8772656
Sorry but we are talking to a fucking adult not a kid, he knows there are consequences to his actions.

>>8772645
Because no medical school would want him if they knew he was a lying fuck?

>>8772670
>There's also the issue of personal integrity. This kind of person is far more likely to alter charts, obfuscate data to protect himself, tell outright lies to get ahead / undermine others, etc., and he needs to be culled immediately. He's shown he can't be trusted.
Big fucking deal, everyone does that, specially in medschool, none of this is new, get down of your high horse.

Should mark his face with like a tattoo or branding with a big C on his forehead for "cheater"

>>8772670
>But they tried to, and that's enough

That's just wrong on so many levels.

>>8772670
>Had they succeeded, they would have been guilty of cheating at that point.

No he'd be guilty of fraud, and the OP would be guilty of letting it pass.

> if it becomes known that cheating is simply acknowledged with a wink and a nod.

It's not simply acknowledged. Saying no prevents it from happening. Go ahead and take his future complaints less seriously if you don't feel you can trust him

>>8772713
>Saying no prevents it from happening.
It prevents it THIS time...

>>8772706
>Try to steal a $5k watch from a jeweler
>1. get caught, give it back, and then go home having dun nuffin
>2. don't get caught, profit
You really don't see the problem with your philosophy?

>>8761011
One of my favorite professors is teaching an intro physics course for non-majors (read: pre-meds), and he's getting a ton of shit from them because he doesn't lecture, but uses class to work through problems as a group (i.e. teaches them actual physics instead of spewing shit he got from a textbook). They're all up in arms and threatening to complain to the department about his teaching style. It's tragic, cause he's a "visiting assistant professor" (adjunct) and my school might boot him out if he gets shitty evals.

Fucking pre-meds destroy everything good they touch.

>>8772718
killing someone isn't the same as trying to kill someone you fucking faggot

>>8772729
I honestly don't understand these kind of people, if is not something they can read and puke it later they complain.

There is no premed thing in my country but I am nearly out of medschool here and still baffles me people refusing to learn the subject, yest, memorizing everything and puking it later can and you a good grate but actually understanding the shit you read makes it so much easier to respond exams and you don't need to read the textbook one hundred times either.

Not saying you can learn all the shit on the medial field but understanding biochem, histology, pathology and anatomy you an answer almost anything out by logic.

>>8772744
A lot of the shit in medicine actually is memorization. And a lot of the teachers quiz students that way

>>8772744
Yeah dubz guy good luck getting a good grade by "understanding" the material when your teacher only quizzes you on the most minutiae of bullshit. Like, the exception of exceptions to the rule.

Just accepted an offer from a PhD program. Considering I got a stipend and the PI seems pretty well-known in their field (Chemical Ecology+Forest Entomology) I'm pretty stoked.

Got rejected from a lot of other programs, but I'm glad that my mediocre gpa and lack of publications didn't bar me completely from getting in somewhere.

>>8772733
>implying I equated cheating with attempting to cheat
I said attempting to cheat is enough to warrant punishment. Please stop strawmanning.

>>8761011
Studying for USMLE rn

Not fun

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I got accepted to a group 1 mathematics PhD program.

How do I not be autistic when teaching.

>>8772804
>Got rejected from a lot of other programs, but I'm glad that my mediocre gpa and lack of publications didn't bar me completely from getting in somewhere.
that says all there is to say about how shit of a program you just entered.

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>>8772271
Damn man how many Hamiltons you stacking bro?

>>8772303
>My mathematics professors, on the other hand, I think have never made a single mistake grading an assignment that I can recall. Very strange.
Because they want you to learn, and mathematicians have no problem admitting when they are wrong.

>>8772319
>blackball some kid out of academia forever because
It's off their academic record in 7 years, so no one is being black ballled for life. Please take your concern trolling back to >>>/trash/

>>8772370
>The premed OP dealt with
It was not only one, total count is 12 out of 15 that emailed me. Tomorrow will be a short lecture for the class, but names called out will get to meet the chair, college dean, and dean.

>>8772402
>as if fucking over a premed was your life's greatest achievemen
Nobody said it was. Premeds just happen to be the biggest fuckwits that we deal with. I don;t want to fuck any of my students over, but when they fuck up royally, they should prepare for the consequences of their actions.

>>8772433
>You're aggressively punishing students
Holding students to the university's academic honesty standards is not punishment. Maybe >>>/biz/ is more your cup of tea instead of science?

>>8772434
>don't let any salty faggot make you think otherwise.
Thanks. I know, and these guys don't bother me!

>>8772502
>he
First, there was more than one SHE, and second your mischaracterization of the circumstances, so how little you reading comprehension is.

>>8772536
>OP can just say no. Doesn't invalidate the grade he got.
So I should just look the other way when I encounter cases of 100% academic dishonesty? I actually have a moral compass.

>>8772550
>OP bragged about how his school put a "cheating" mark on the guy's record
Not bragging, just stating a fact! Also that mark will be gone in a few years.

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>>8772319
>Why not simply rectify the error and call it a day?
That's what OP is doing.
"Anyone can make an error, Ensign. But that error doesn't become a mistake until you refuse to correct it."

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>>8772370
>Grades should be based on the objective test he turned in. You're confounding things by implicitly adding honesty to the mix.
So if a student turns in a good paper that was provably copied from the internet, I should give him an A on the assignment? After all, the objective essay he turned in was good, and I'm just mixing everything up by considering honesty.

>>8772402
>If you cause damage, you pay it back in full. You don't pay 20x the amount just because the other guy "wants to teach you a lesson". That's vengeance.
In practically every legal code from the Bronze Age forward, there are provisions for PUNITIVE as well as REPARATIVE damages, to provide a strong incentive not to steal. Hell, it's even in the Pentateuch! We have them today in our justice system.
>Newsflash you're not the fucking legal system!
Not THE legal system, but A legal system. Universities have disciplinary systems set up for student misconduct, and they're generally state/municipal justice systems in miniature (minus, of course, imprisonment etc.)
>You're there to educate people. You just failed to educate that "cheater".
I dunno, the concept of "if I cheat, bad things will happen to me" is a pretty useful lesson. Of course, it's a lesson everyone should know by the time they graduate high school, and which most people learn around the age of ten, but there are remedial classes for a reason.
>Why wouldn't he keep your grade in this case? He fucking earned it.
He fucking earned his punishment too, but you want to give him a pass.
>What danger does a fucking premed represent to you?
Have you considered the possibility that a premed who cheats his way through university might become a med student who cheats his way through med school? And that he might be literally putting patients' lives at risk? Fuck sake, think this through.
Not to mention what >>8772469 said; if a school tolerates academic dishonesty, it degrades the school's reputation.

>>8765800
the people that work in administration in colleges are so incompetent that they wouldn't be able to hold an office job anywhere in the industry.

administration in academia is literally filled with the worst trash imaginable.

>>8767683
the only TAs that do this are lazy shitheads and complete retards that should have never been admitted into a grad program.

yeah, it's annoying if someone does something completely different than the answer key, but you should still try to follow along and see if it makes sense. if you can't even do that then it's obvious you're beyond lazy, and a moron on top of that because that exam will just come back to you unless the student likes losing points for no reason.

>>8772930
>yeah guys you fucked up so now you can all forget about getting into any school for like a decade
>we've blacklisted you, it'll disappear in 7 years tho
>you can come back when you're in your 30s tho

goddamn, if you tried this in my country your school would be sued to hell and back. not even banks get away with that kind of shit here...

>essentially ruin some student's lives
>"its not punishment"

i know attorneys who could convince a judge that you're doing bigger damage than you're remedying... but again, i don't live in america.

>>8772303
don't go to shitty unis

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>>8761011
>be instructor for QM 2
>teaching from Valentine
>pull problems from Sakurai
>mfw 60% of the class fails the midterm

>>8772933
>So if a student turns in a good paper that was provably copied from the internet, I should give him an A on the assignment?

that's retarded. he didn't do the assignment.

if he did do the test honestly and scored an A, can you really claim he scored an F just because he bothered you with bullshit afterwards?

doesn't seem fair to me.

>>8772933
>strong incentive not to

stronger than a premed's obsession with this faggot ass GPA? hah... nice joke!

>you want to give him a pass.

i would give him a pass too if he happened to be a top student and it's the first time he tried shit like that and it doesn't happen again

that sounds like the kind of student i'd actually want in med school.

>Have you considered the possibility that a premed who cheats his way through university might become a med student who cheats his way through med school?

the possibility is always there that any student will cheat regardless of his past track record

>>8772929
I see your point. I thought my previous research and work experience, letters of rec, and GRE scores would have seen to that I was somewhat competitive. I still hope to get some good publications out of the experience in the intended field of expertise and maybe land a job in forestry.

Chemical Ecology is a pretty niche thing so I imagine the applicant pool was not as wide for the other programs to which I applied, which were general Ecology or plant bio.

>>8772319
>Well Mr. Madoff we caught you stealing untold amounts of money
>Lets just rectify this error and call it a day

>>8772992
>i know attorneys who could convince a judge that you're doing bigger damage than you're remedying.
HE WUZ A GOOD BOY HE DINDU NUFFIN U RUIN HIS LYFE AWWWWWWW

>>8773070

lol does it make you mad? people have been sued for far smaller issues than that.

>>8773014
>that's retarded. he didn't do the assignment.
but he did do it anon, he just did it in an extremely "efficient" way. who are you to judge him?

>>8773095
that's just not the same thing. sorry.

>>8773100
you can at least agree he shouldn't be punished, right?

>>8773109
give him a 0. if you're so mad about the plagiarism, sue him for copyright infringement or have the original author do it. your pissy academic outbursts at "plagiarism" aren't even close to real justice.

don't you see it yet? real justice demands money to exchange hands.

>>8773115
>Losing one's chance at a diploma is not a loss of money
>Incentivizing students to repeatedly commit zero-risk plagiarism in every assignment since it can only increase their grade
8/8

>>8773161
>causing someone to lose lots of money
>is the same as pocketing that money yourself

goddamn you're fucking stupid.

>zero-risk plagiarism

there's always a risk.

>>8773163
>it's not justice unless you make money from it
Now you're babbling utter nonsense and following it up with insults. Just close the thread, you're done.

>there's always a risk.
Maybe in your fantasy system where you claim there is some chance of being sued for $0 damage "copyright infringement".

In reality there is only a risk precisely because we enforce the rules (what you call "pissy outbursts") that the student agreed to follow when he enrolled.

>>8773181
dude im not even american. now i see its pointless to try to argue based on my country's rules.

here, plagiarizing something just gets you sued, your material retracted and some moral damage payment awarded. then the world moves the fuck on. that's justice to me.

nobody is blacklisted over that shit. blacklists in general are illegal.

Hope those premeds get to save your life one day OP.

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>>8773014
>stronger than a premed's obsession with this faggot ass GPA? hah... nice joke!
and if they get caught cheating they get a 0 on either the assignment or the whole course, which will do far more harm to their GPA than the small benefit they might possibly receive. do you understand how incentives and expected values and risk management work?

>>8773115
>if you're so mad about the plagiarism, sue him for copyright infringement or have the original author do it
not all plagiarized materials are copyrighted. most of the shit people copy off of is in the public domain. and sometimes students actually pay others for essays.
should someone just not be punished if they submit an assignment that was plagiarized from a non-copyrighted source? because that's the batshit insane direction you're going with this.

>>8773202
>based on my country's rules
what country's rules are these? I need to know so that if there are any undergrads from there in any class I ever teach or TA, I can watch them like a hawk.

How much do graduate schools care about undergraduate GPA if you performed well in a masters program? I only got a 3.6 in undergrad out of laziness.

How competitive will I be for an MSc program with a 3.5 GPA, summers worth of volunteer work on wound healing charecterization, and a 4th year thesis project on implant immune response/designing drug delivery microchips? I have three very good references (professors that have worked with me).

On a side note, how applicable to industry would the above research be? Could I land a job by doing research in the above after an MSc/PhD?

>>8773808
lol that premed obviously didn't understand.

>should someone just not be punished

of course not. invalidate his assignment/give him a 0.

honestly, you're just throwing away useful researchers if you ostracize them. society needs him more than you need to punish him

>>8761020
I was an biochem undergrad once bro and i didn't give a fuck. triggered.

>>8764327
can confirm the only cheaters I saw at UW Seattle were Asian.

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This is the saltiest thread I have ever seen on /sci/.
Is this how most premed are?

>>8773880
I can't speak for the application to industry (though it does sound promising), you seem competitive for MSc programs.

>>8773967
I'd be salty too if I had to jump a meaningless hoop before actually enrolling in med school

>>8771505
Fair enough, cheating is abit open ended but normally they would put academic dishonesty on the report vs cheating. Cheating is open ended, dishonesty is all inclusive.

>>8774133
both have the exact same result

why even argue this

>>8774283
Because some asshole earlier was bitching about "it isn't cheating"

It might not be "cheating" but that premed was being academically dishonest. Put simply, it doesn't matter if you are memorizing answers before, looking at others papers during, or changing the grade aftet, they are all dishonest.

>>8766591
>slowly licking around your lips in a circle like a horny cartoon character.
Wait, is this bad? I do it all the time.

>>8774339
whatever m8. to me it's "ratting someone out" pure and simple. the end result is he's fucked.

do whatever you think is right. you're the one in position of power. personally i wouldn't do it unless someone forced my tongue.

>>8774371
bringing attention to your lips signals you're horny and that you want the person your talking to

>>8774685
the reason i wouldn't do it is... its the fastest way to make an enemy for life, get sued or physically hurt or all the above combined. and the court would consider the beating as "defending his honor".

i live in a 3rd world shithole where actions have immediate consequences. you needn't worry about us though, not many people escape, only the very best and well connected.

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>>8774001
>before we let you practice medicine, we better make sure you're not a brainlet who doesn't understand biology and chemistry
>meaningless hoop

>>8774696
>anyone who passes med school
>doesnt know bio and chem
>the most competitive field ever in any country

There is no reason to study med school subjects outside of med school.

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>>8773967
For the most part, yes many behave in an abhorrent manner. The autists saying he dindu nuffin are pretty representive of the mentality of premeds.

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>>8774696
>implying you can practice medicine after you finish your premed

Bet you couldn't get into medical school and that's why you're mad

Wow look at all those cheaters OP

>>8761205

I know it triggers you
Go leave your mark on them
If you now what I mean

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How do I get motivation to finish this literature review?

I've read plenty of papers and have pretty much all the material I need but I can't make myself sit down and right the last 3000 words

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>>8774693
>its the fastest way to make an enemy for life, get sued or physically hurt or all the above combined

That's some fucking truth there.

>>8762999

>turns out a bitch who had it in for me (as in, we absolutely loathed each other) had dobbed me and only me in.
>Got suspended for a few days and autofailed that test.
>Thankfully it didnt prevent me from passing and I ended up nicking one of her books during a class and burning it in retaliation.
>I got a lot of satisfaction from hearing that she had been crying over the disappearance of that book.

Nobody likes a rat
I say we all bully OP after class

>>8762646

>Honestly, this is why the concept of cheating only exists in academia, because anywhere else it would, in fact, be entirely acceptable to write down bored for reference, or even to look something up. In fact, it would be expected. Your boss might actually fire you if you didn't know something, and you just decided to wing it rather than looking up the answer, or asking for help.

Is medicine academia? I think not...

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>>8775581
>right
REEEEEEEEEEEE
I mean write

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>>8775627
we all understood you anon. please check you're autism

>>8774693
trying to physically attack someone for giving you a bad grade is also a good way to end up dead yourself

>>8775636
"ratting him out"
not "giving him a bad grade"

that guy is american. he isn't likely to suffer that consequence. i happen to be from a country where teachers actually got killed in class for much lesser insults.

>>8775644
well then you live in a fucked up country that needs to lower its murder rate so teachers feel comfortable preventing cheaters.

>>8775636

See >>8769812
>A kid once brought a gun to my community college because the professor 'gave' him a B.

You were saying...?

>>8775689
And what happened to that kid? Does he look back on that as a good decision?

And what happened to the professor? Does he now give literally everyone an "A" out of fear?

>>8775699
Fuck if I know. Go ask him on the other thread if you care that much.

You do realize there are many examples of school shootings taking place in US, right? Had that kid decided to open fire, I bet the teacher who fucked him would be the first one to die.

Tragic right?

>>8775709
Do you know how many dumb cheaters get fucked every day? A lot more than the number of people who die in school shootings. I really don't see this as any kind of rational fear.

>>8775719
That's right anon... Keep ass-raping the premeds... There is nothing to fear!

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>>8775568
med students actually do rotations in teaching hospitals where they are involved in patient care. if they're big enough brainlets, they could cause problems.
meanwhile, I'm a paleontologist you fuckhead. I decided before I even went to college that I didn't want to deal with the living.
>me as undergrad
>"boy, I may be working on two hard science majors at one of the most infamously grueling unis on the continent, but at least I'm not one of those poor premed bastards"
>graduated with 3.0
>now finishing up my M.S.
>already accepted to Ph.D. program in the fall
>feels goodman
nice filename tho

>going with colleague for field recordings
>find moss we are looking for in ~10 minutes
>spend 5 hours getting high and fishing

$2,100 stipend every month

>>8776037
>>graduated with 3.0
>>now finishing up my M.S.
>>already accepted to Ph.D. program in the fall
literally the ballad of a retard.

>>8761011
Where all the Med students at?

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>>8776136
>fuck around all day in lab, accomplish nothing
>beloved by all in my department, professors brought me home-made icecream for my birthday

if you actually try during your masters you are a literal cuckold, once again social skills > "not being a brainlet"

>>8776144
t. NEET dropout
enjoy not having student debt all you want; I'll be doing actual research.

>>8776297
enjoy being retarded.

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>>8776037
>you have to be a rocket scientist to scoop shit from a patient's asshole
>you have to be 2x PhD to talk to a patient and determine basic things such as what, when, where, why, how, for how long
>you need 250 IQ to translate the patient's words into med speak as you talk
>wow such problematic much brainlet

The only reason medicine is so competitive is because of MONEY and STATUS you dummyhead!

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>>8778285
>brainlet disimpacting patient doesn't know proper technique
>uses too much force, causes anal fissure
>brainlet takes patient's info
>doesn't recognize classic symptoms of acute appendicitis, patient ruptures and needs emergency surgery
>brainlet cheated his way through undergrad, never learned basic anatomical terminology
>misreports symptoms to doc, screws up diagnosis

confirmed for salty dropout

>>8778570
You make it sound like the STUDENT is responsible for the patient.

He's a student. He's not required to correctly diagnose and treat anything... Ensuring proper care despite student mistakes is your professor's job.

Med school is the time you go out and see how disease presents itself, make mistakes and learn from them. That is sort of the point.

Your post is literally
>med student isn't as good as an actual doctor with 30 years of practice

>>8774696
>>before we let you practice medicine, we better make sure you're not a brainlet who doesn't understand biology and chemistry

That's what medical school does you brainlet. If student isn't capable of understanding the material, student simply fails the classes.

>>8778667
high school:
>let's just pass this idiot, college will sort him out
undergrad:
>not worth punishing the pre-meds for cheating, if they don't know the shit they'll flunk out in med school
grad school:
>too busy to deal with this, also don't want to draw attention to one of my students being caught cheating. better just trust that he won't do it again here; if he goes nowhere in his field, that's his problem not mine
I see no problems with extending your logic to its obvious conclusion

>>8778651
you underestimate the incompetence of people who blundered through school worrying more about their letter grade than whether they were absorbing the material.
the whole reason for making people get a comprehensive education in organismal biology is that it does take a certain level of knowledge to do even very basic things under supervision.
to draw an analogy to my field, fossil preparation takes a little bit of skill; if I'm going to show some undergrad the ropes, they better have a basic grounding in geosci (and preferably bio) so they know some basic properties of rocks. if they don't have that, there's nothing I can do to stop them from fucking up my specimens.

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Holy shit this thread.
Are "pre"-medfags honestly trying to say with a straight face that their exams consist ONLY of bullshit useless questions and nothing else?

Not only the background of cheating already puts the lot of you on a bad light but this arguments honestly reeks of deflection.

>Is not that I didn't study enough, it's just that the exam was done so only subspecialist could answer it

>>8767345
oh god
>be sophomore in electrical engineering
>get part time job working with cognitive radio research back when software defined radio was new
>I spend a lot of my time figuring out how the radios work. It's new equipment and pretty new technology.
>The end goal is to write AI software that basically uses the equipment as a really fancy USB DAC/ADC for RF.
>I am starting to feel incompetent. It's like someone hired you to make music and you spend all of your time looking at schematics of your sound card.
>the professor i'm working for says he wants me to explain to the other people working on the grant. I'm thinking he's dissatisfied with how long it's taking me to do stuff a little more complicated than the equivalent of a hello world program and he's gathering evidence to fire me.
>Prepare 20 minute presentation.
>I'm expecting other undergrads. Masters and Doctorate students show up with the professor.
>Spaghetti falls out of pockets internally. I can't operate on this level yet. I'm just a ham operator who wanted to play with the neat radios.
>Nervous so blast through presentation in 10 minutes but feels like 5.
>Spend a few hours answering questions about this really neat DSP machine when I hadn't even taken courses on DSP yet. I was mostly in to analog tinkering as a kid.
>About 2/3 of them I know really well. 10% were I didn't even know enough to think to ask that question. The rest I could answer with a heres what happens but I'm not sure how or why it does that so let me try to not look like a moron while telling me what I do know.
>Professor calls me out on one of the last ones. Why would it do that. It doesn't make any sense etc.
>me: I dunno seemed odd to me too but I've come across 5 sources saying it does.
>him: That doesn't seem right.
>me: i dunno lol
>One of the graduate students joins in. He's right he says. Turns out he's really in to this part of the system.
>oh thank god

1/2

>>8778976

At the end of it I'm bracing for trying to not get fired. Instead everyone there thanks me. Turns out they weren't testing me they really didn't know. Somehow I was teaching them about this cool new tech.

A couple of them expressed amazement I was a sophomore and wanted to know how the hell I knew all this stuff since my job is only for 10 hours a week. I tell them I spend probably 30-40 hours a week in the lab and any free time giving myself a crash course in DSP. I thought I was a slow at learning and was inadequately compensating for it with time. It turns out I accidentally jump started everybody's elses work to do neat stuff with it by figuring out how to do anything at all. Before this it was just some black box with a lot of potential that they had an equally or even vaguer idea of how to work with it.

It was a really good job for me and I was able to relax a bit more after that. I still had moments where I felt like unqualified but it was really nice most of the time when I realized I was able to work at this level and actually contribute something useful.

>>8766555
This

My lips are constantly chapped like damn son why society gotta be like this

>>8772939
This

There is honestly no lower form of life on this Earth than university administration

>>8776037
Competition is stiff but I want you to know that you're probably the worst poster on this entire board

I guarantee you're completely insufferable IRL as well

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>>8779055
cry me a riviera

>>8778985
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome

>>8778963
The guy who said that is already a doctor.

>>8765848
Wha... what?
How the hell does a university even have a course like that? Aren't people supposed to have high school education in order to qualify to university in America? The fuck is wrong with you.

>be professor
>see student cheat
>do nothing because I'm not autistic

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>>8776037
>paleontologist expressing his irrelevant opinions on medical education

That about sums up 90% of this thread.

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>when those premeds graduate

Med school student here.

FWIW I'm only DO.

Resident Physician here.

TA you are doing god's work. Find the dishonest fucks and weed them out early.

Honestly, the biggest door opener in residency is Step 1 scores. None of this matters when it comes to your peers. You are responsible for your own score.

Pre-medfags that complain about statistics need to recognize that it literally forms the basis of evidence based medicine and learn that shit.

And gunners? We know the shit you are pulling when you show up on the wards. Be chill, be available, be sort of interested and you'll do fine. Try to sell out your colleagues and I'm going to fuck you on evaluations.

>>8761011
Hi everyone. I want to die.

>>8781153

Schools here are predatory. They'll put students with the mental capacity of an 8th grader $25,000 in debt and make them take shit like "college algebra." Also known as all the shit you managed to avoid learning in middle school.

Our lowest level math course used to be math 050. Which is a review class aimed mostly at adult students who haven't taken math classes in over a decade, and non-stem students that need a math elective. It's a class that if you actually test into you're likely never going to graduate. But now we have two classes below even that, math 040 and math 025, that teach basic arithmetic and multiplying and dividing whole numbers and fractions. If you somehow test into those classes, and people do, you have to take intro to algebra, algebra, college algebra, trig, and precalculus before you even get to glimpse at your calc sequence. It's a joke, and a trap that mostly just steals money from people who will never actually see a degree.

>>8781832
nothing below calc 1 belongs on the university level.

i'm certain they made those classes because the influx of black and hispanic students flooding campuses was struggling with getting a math credit, and of course it would be "racis" to hold them to the same standard as everyone else.

>>8781788
>Resident

What are you specializing in?

>Try to sell out your colleagues and I'm going to fuck you on evaluations.

Do you include telling on cheaters in the definition of "sell out"

>>8764381
Get some rest, try again in the morning.

>>8761226
probably won't be a math major much longer if your institution is any good

>>8764329
it's literally not illegal and it seems like you can't hack the stress levels required of people in your intended profession

tl;dr: kill you're self

>>8764396
if it's so illegal go ahead and sue and rake in those millions faggot

but you won't
because it's not
wish you would though so the hospital's lawyers can take turns raping your asshole