Gender

>"how you feel" and should be dealt with as a belief / faith issue under secularism.

Hit the nail on the head.
There is no empirical evidence for the existence of "gender".

Sex is observable, it is objective, we can empirically observe it.

"Gender" is as real as leprechauns. Just because someone feels it exists doesn't mean it exists.

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>>8458284
>tfw in your language both "gender" and "sex" are the same word with the same meaning

Gender isn't binary, but there's a good argument in favor of it being bidirectional and it's definitely bimodal.

>>8458314
what moonspeak is this, out of curiosity?

>>8458284
Adding to this to avoid confusion: male and female genders don't exist as well. For example just because someone is male doesn't mean they have to do things fitting the stereotypical definition of males.

>>8458319
>gender isn't binary
only if you're a fucking faggot

>>8458280
i feel like most people these days have this feeling that they can change between genders or whatever. that's fine, they can do what they want. but for me, i've just never felt like i want to be, or that i "ought to be" another gender. i just like who i am.

>>8458319
>what moonspeak is this
Russian

>>8458280
Think of it like this:

sex is biology, it's encoded in chromosomes and cannot be changed, although surgery and hormones can make surface modifications. Even in sex there are more than two, since chromosomes can be lost or duplicated or altered significantly. Chimerism can also cause a body to have male and female parts. those who fall in this third group are called "intersex"

gender isn't sex, it's the social idea of a what a sex should be, (e.g the difference between "male" and "manly"). This can vary from culture-to-culture, and there are a number of cases in which societies have third genders that don't fit into the two groups, such as eunuchs. Any person with a gender different from their sex is called trans

Trans and intersex are grouped together under the term genderqueer.

>>8458319
How does one measure it enough to know it's non-binary? What is being measured? This is why I asked the question on /sci/ and the cause of my consternation.

One the one hand I feel like "if we can measure it independently of sex why is there an argument"?

On the other hand I feel like "if we can't measure it how is demanding someone use my pronoun different than demanding someone worship my God", hence my raising the secularism contingency.

But ultimately I would like to know if anyone knows of hard science that exists so that I can make up my own mind on this with available data rather than being yet another reactionary to bizarre news stories in the media.

Stuff like this is really making me take the issue seriously because what starts on campus will move into the corporate work world:
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/u-of-t-professor-attacks-political-correctness-in-video-refuses-to-use-genderless-pronouns

>>8458337
all that, and yet nobody cares

>>8458342
you cared enough to respond :^)

>>8458342
pretty much

>>8458341
>social science
>hard science
no

>>8458337

you are making shit up again.

>This can vary from culture-to-culture

No it doesn't.

Name JUST ONE SINGLE culture where being weak is seen as manly, or being infertile is seen as womanly.

Sex roles are evolutionary. They have resulted both from being evolutionary advantageous and from being inevitable outcomes of other evolutionary advantageous developments.

Take your unscientific make-believe off of /sci/

>>8458357
>making shit up

more like interpreting their own feelings as facts

>>8458357
Define manly or womanly without using subjective terms. Better yet provide scientific articles containing definitions for these words with empirical evidence.

>>8458357
You seem to imagining things I said and then reacting to them, the classical straw man fallacy.

What do we think of as manly? Rough, coarse, strong and large-of-dick?

If you were an ancient athenian, you wouldn't be seen as manly, you'd be seen as animalistic and everything a man should not be.

That's one example, what is another? when Marlboro first moved business to china using the Marlboro Man icon, sales flopped instantly. Turns out the idea of a tough, rugged man living by the sweat of his brow wasn't manly to the chinese. It was like selling colonge with a hobo. No, marlboro had to change the marlboro man to a businessman who owned multiple farms to make him look manly to the public

>>8458357
Would you consider being weak a womanly trait? Would you consider being infertile a manly trait? These are traits generally seen as undesirable in either sex what's your point?

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>>8458337
>>8458357
>>8458371
>>8458388

This is the debate by example I was hoping NOT to have.

Does anybody have any ISBNs or data that they could sincerely recommend on the topic?

Otherwise I guess >>8458354 wins the thread and I'll just identify as an attack helicopter.

>>8458367
>Define manly or womanly without using subjective terms.
breastfeeding

>>8458401
back to 9gag with you

>>8458407
That's a trait of sex not gender try again.

>>8458409
menstruating

>>8458410
sex again. Gender is only the social parts

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>>8458409
a man wouldn't breastfeed, therefore it's not manly. a woman would breastfeed, therefore it is womanly.

btw, nobody cares about your self-hatred issues. you hate yourself and your life so much that you want to be something else, and ask everyone else to give you preferential treatment. not how it works, bucko.

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>>8458414
A man can't breastfeed because there's no milk to breastfeed with. Also with technology yes men CAN breastfeed isn't that amazing?

>>8458414
you say we're the idiots for picking apart societal roles and determining which parts are intrinsic to biology and which ones are simply cultural, and yet you're here on /sci/ trying to insult people for thinking and learning

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>>8458418
you 13 year olds never cease to astound me with your creativity

you rock, dudes

>>8458429
you can't come up with an opposing argument so instead you target the poster. You are officially less than pathetic

>>8458280
who cares? anyone caught up in their own "gender identity" is going to lack the focus and dedication, and have an ego which is far too large to ever make a lasting impact on science.

>>8458432
ergo: gender identitarians are not a threat

>>8458432
You could also say that anyone caught up in governing a burgeoning country while running several newspapers and forming diplomatic ties with france is going to lack the focus and dedication to science to make an impact, but we owe the study of electrodynamics to Ben Franklin who did exactly that

>>8458440
>gender identitarianism is a worthwhile pursuit because a rich guy did rich things over 200 years ago

>>8458440
i mean i see your point though. you should be allowed to play pretend being a lady because a wealthy person from colonial new england had sex with french AND american born women.

>>8458444
reducto ad absurdum. Again you prove you have no goddamn argument

>>8458446
i mean, go ahead, pretend you're a girl. i don't care.

We have a genetic SEX determined by our genes and for example in a blood sample (which reflects her body’s cells) a woman will visibly have over 65 % drumstick sex chromatin triggering her as female when in the womb. We also have a mental gender. Men raised around or always around solely women will take on feminine interests and mannerisms and likely become gay or non sexual. This is what homosexual couples adopting is just WRONG.

A mans mind in a woman’s body (or visa versa) is a mental matter, but some foetus’s sex chromatin is sadly with no definite ”winner” so both sex organs develop (all be less developed) and whatever mind the persons upbringing decrees they be, they become , man or woman mentally.

>>8458453
and yet nobody cares.

you have to earn respect, people don't just hand it out because you're one gender or another. this is the current year, dickwits.

>>8458456
and by the way, you can never have so much sympathy that it equals respect. it just doesn't convert.

>>8458284
This is why I hate trannies.
They do nothing but reinforce gender and the stereotypes that derive from it.

If you're a man and want to wear a dress, then enjoy being a man in a dress, but don't assume that a dress makes you a woman. What a joke.

>>8458494
You sound like my friend who hates drag queens for the same reason, "they enforce stereotypes about gay and LGTB people"-

>>8458504
>dress up in blackface and act as "black" as possible
wtf this is racist

>dress up in womanface and act as sassy and "womanlike" as possible
yaaaaas slay queen
how empowerful!

>>8458418
>a man puts on a vest full of milk wiyh a nipple on it therefore men can breastfeed just like women
is this what trannies ACTUALLY believe?

>>8458514
kek

>>8458574
It's the social aspect of it that is important, which is indistinguishable to the infant. They were arguing for breastfeeding as a gender construct rather than a biological construct.

>>8458578
I'm not sure what wearing a baby bottle on your chest has to do with challenging supposed gender roles that are intrinsically linked to secondary sex characteristics. You're not a man taking a woman's role you're a man who instead of holding a baby bottle in his hand decided to trap it to his chest instead.

Trannies are fucking silly.

>>8458588
Yeah and doing so didn't make him any less of a man, therefore gender still doesn't exist.

>>8458590
>therefore gender still doesn't exist.
proofs
believing gender is completely divorced from sex is the biggest crock of shit ever

>>8458600
Never said it's divorced. I said it doesn't exist. Burden of proof is on you friend, otherwise I could say flying purple girafficorns exist and you'd have to prove me wrong.

>>8458280
Back to your containment board
>>>/lgbt/

>>8458617
>>8458619
Yeah, you're definitely smart enough to be here.

>>8458620
We literally have a whole dedicated board for this topic
>>>/lgbt/

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>>8458453
>Men raised around or always around solely women will take on feminine interests and mannerisms and likely become gay or non sexual

>implying all women aren't shotacon and wouldn't show to him what his weewee is for
>especially unrelated women

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>>8458578

>>8458626
The people on the board are cognitively biased due to childhood sexual trauma and the side effects of GRIDS. The conversation here is much more fruitful.

>>8458371

>>8458371

>If you were an ancient athenian, you wouldn't be seen as manly, you'd be seen as animalistic and everything a man should not be.

This is a meme, which stems from the "why do greek statues not have massive cocks on them" meme. They were art not porn. In church do you see jesus shown with a 30 foot long horse cock? Then why would the greeks portray zeus like that?

Athenians respected strength and macho-ness, and their women were exited by male genitalia and dominant behavior, just like all women everywhere throughout all of history.

>Marlboro

I don't know enough about cigarettes or the Chinese as I do about ancient Greece, so I can't refute that at present

I never understood why people take issue with transgendered people. So what if they dress and act differently? Why do you need to scientifically verify what they're saying? It has no impact on anyone's life whatsoever, and it's not like refering to them with different pronouns is some great favor they're asking.
Why are so man people so hell bent on denying their existence?

>>8458327
Kek, not surprised

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>>8458357
It has everything to do with t levels. The sexual hormones are the device through which the selective processes work to drive human evolution. Social structures modify our hormonal balances. Women with high t choose low t male sexual partners and high t males choose low t females.
Africans have big penises because under their traditional matriarchal social structures women controlled sexual reproduction and preferred larger testicles partners. Asiatic patriarchal societies have tiny penises because fathers would chose who their daughters mated with and engaged in female infanticide.
When people not adequately biologically adapted to radically different social structures have them forced upon them they develop pathological issues which explains the degree of violence amongst Africans or substance abuses amongst Native Americans.
Global society is slowly becoming more feminized today so if I am right I predict that the size of our descendants penises and testicles may grow to larger and larger sizes as women take back control over sexual selection. I try not to hold a normative opinion on this but this is what my studies indicate.

For more information:
Fisher, H. (1992) Anatomy of Love: The Mysteries of Mating, Marriage, and Why We Stray
Cronin, Helena (1992) The Ant and the Peacock
Miller, Geoffrey F. (1994) Evolution of the human brain through runaway sexual selection: the mind as a protean courtship device
Trivers, RL (1985) Social Evolution

>>8458280
>However I'm anxious that this is caveman thinking and there's real actual hard science
Psychology in a nutshell.

>>8458995
Why do greek statues of women look muscular and ripped as fuck? In modern times being muscular is a masculine trait and thus these roles really do depend on culture to a degree.

>>8459035
Because perpetuating ignorance and bad ideas has a pernicious effect on society.

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>>8458619
>>8458626
I skimmed it looking for substance then came here. I maintain that I am in the right place.

>>8459035 I used to have a live and let live attitude until the outrage over Jordan Peterson and Bill C-16 (Canada).

At the point that legislation is being created and people can lose their jobs and be accused of hate crimes for refusing to play along with something I suddenly care a LOT if something is real - or if they just got a natural 20 on a bluff roll.

Peterson's position and the Dr in his title is pretty much the only thing saving him. Any other person would have been swept away in the circus, regardless of it's merit or integrity.

Thank you. >>8459052 , I'm going to start with '94.

Agreed >>8459137

>>8459035
allowing the mentally ill to radically change their bodies with hormones or have their penises removed is a failure of society to protect the mentally ill from themselves

>>8458280
>I'm constantly struggling to wrap my head around the news of multiple genders

Medical community agrees that this is all gender politics without basis in science. >>>/lgbt/

>>8458452
You (and a lot of other anons) do seem to care quite a lot. Does it threaten you?

>>8458319
>what moonspeak is this, out of curiosity?
Polish too

many non-english languages are like this i think, there is no point in having separate words for it

Where did gender begin and why has it persisted for so long? Has it been beneficial or detrimental, regardless of whether it is true or not.

>>8458280
Why do lgbtards try so hard to insert themselved into our board?. Your bullshit is neither science nor math.
Back to your containment board >>>/lgbt/