How can people say that they were born into the wrong gender

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>>7681508
it's called insanity, anon.

>>7681508
sex =/= gender
sage

Pic related guy here, you edgy because of the lack of poosey in your life?

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>>7681548
Are you offering your transpussy? I guess you're pre-op then?

>>7681508
Literally reddit: the thread

>>7681541
gender is an irl meme

>>7681508
In some cases, defective genes on the Y chromosome can lead to an improper development of defining sexual characteristics in the womb. There can also be problems in the baby that lead to weird things like an engorged 4 inch clitoris, maybe due to unbalanced robertsonian translocation of a small section of the Y chromosome? Also you have to consider things like Kleinfelter syndrome. I'll admit I haven't even looked into the side of it regarding self-perception of sex/gender, but physically at least there are a lot of conditions that can cause your sexual characteristics to be incredibly androgenous, so I don't see why psychologically defining your own sex should be as easy as you make it out to be..

>>7681508
Delusion brought by the eroding of traditional gender roles and the accompanying identity issues.

>>7681508
It's thought to have similar roots as BIID - for whatever reason, the brain's body map is convinced that the body should be a different shape than it is. (BIID is an interesting disorder - it's basically phantom limb syndrome in reverse. It displays almost exactly the same symptoms and common behaviors as gender identification disorder. And, also like gender dysphoria, and unlike virtually every other form of dysphoria, it can be effectively relieved by just amputating the desired limb and letting the patient get on with their life.)

The genetic reasons for this are unknown, mostly because there's an enormous amount we don't understand about brain development. But it's not unthinkable that the cortical homunculus could have sex-dependent development separate from the actual body development, that could be triggered in error by a hormonal imbalance or something.

The degeneration of morality

>>7681508
How can people say that they are attracted to the same sex when their genetic makeup makes them only able to combine genes with the opposite sex? This has always baffled me, and isn't brought up that often. It seems like genetics are totally ignored in the discussion about "being gay", and that you are gay if you think you are gay alone.

I think that the whole reason for the "gay movement" is the post-modernist ideal that everyone determines their own lives and is what they want to be (which is bullshit much like most of post-modernism, the solution to modernism invented by people who had an invested interest in people thinking they are unique and special). If you have male sex genes, you are attracted to women. If you have female sex genes, you are attracted to men. There is no argument beyond this;it is probable that your estrogen levels or testosterone levels are higher than average and cause you to think that you are attracted to the same sex, because you think like a female or male sometimes and were convinced by media that if you think you are the gay you are gay.

>>7682238
why is changing your sex immoral?
>It isn't.
It isn't self-harm...
>>7681508
>post-modernist ideal
A bet for a lot of FtM you are 100% correct; they just don't want to deal with the problems of being an unattractive female, and would rather just be regular joe man. Who cares?
>mtf
I've never met an mtf i thought was sane.

>>7681508
There are studies showing that a lot of things about LGBT+ have scientific backgrounds, also atacking it with biology is a fallacy:

1.-Is something natural good? Desirable?
2.-Is something natural correct? (I ask you...do you shit outside your house when you need to take a shit?)

You are being reductionist in the section about post-modernism, pos-mo is one of the biggest subject in philosophy and we don't have a direct and correct diffinition.

You sound like a red piller...please, stop your ego, and grow up.

>>7682364
>It isn't self-harm...
Might want to look up why John Hopkins suspended their sexual rearrangement surgery

>>7681508
We are pretty much certain its a new phenomenon. Homosexuality has tons of prehistoric examples, where references to transgenderism are few and far between.

Its mostly part of the identity crisis. Rate of suicide is up, average number of close friends at historical lows, autism epidemic. We are simply watching the nasty transformation of a socially oriented creature thrown into the most anti-social era of mankind

>>7682393
>Might want to look up why John Hopkins suspended their sexual rearrangement surgery
Uh, because they read a study without paying attention to what it actually said? That's literally what happened there.

>>7682399
There are some historical individuals believed to be transgender, however it's a lot harder to verify since it wasn't a known medical condition at the time. They were just seen as people who refused to follow gender roles, seen as part of some vague category of mental illness, or just extreme versions of homosexuality.

>>7682399
Sadly I don't remember the name...but I have seen that in rome there was a prince or something that wanted to become a female, also, what about how other cultures are very open and considerer transexual people as different...these situations are very old and shos us the role of society.

>>7682408
>Uh, because they read a study without paying attention to what it actually said? That's literally what happened there.
....What? I meant look at the mean survival rates for 10 years after the procedure.

>There are some historical individuals believed to be transgender, however it's a lot harder to verify since it wasn't a known medical condition at the time.
Name one

Also not conforming to gender roles (e.g Marie Curie being a scientist instead of a house wife) is not implicitly transgenderism

>>7682409
>what about how other cultures are very open and considerer transexual people as different.

transvestite =/= transexual

>>7682409
I'm sure you could find a couple examples that hinted at someone wanting to be the opposite sex. But the point was those examples are a rarity when in comparison to homosexuality. The explosion we are seeing in transgenderism is nothing comparable to past

>>7682421
>....What? I meant look at the mean survival rates for 10 years after the procedure.
The study used by the doctor at Johns Hopkins only compared transgender post-op suicide rates to the general population, not to transgender pre-op suicide rates. So it really had nothing to say on how the surgery affected the suicide rate.

>Name one
The Roman emperor Elagabalus is usually one of the most common examples people bring up, though their status as transgender is strongly disputed.

>Also not conforming to gender roles (e.g Marie Curie being a scientist instead of a house wife) is not implicitly transgenderism
Of course. However extremely strong violations of gender roles may be a sign of being transgender.

>>7682409
I mean to point to one example of a transgender individual in the past as a explanation that the recent surge in transexuals is simply the unveiling of something that has always been there is total fallacious. Its like in the future people citing legends of werewolves as proof that a group that think and act like dogs is actually normal and has always been around

>>7682428
>The study used by the doctor at Johns Hopkins only compared transgender post-op suicide rates to the general population, not to transgender pre-op suicide rates. So it really had nothing to say on how the surgery affected the suicide rate
....Um fucking what? How do you judge someone's suicide rate probability without consulting the general population average? Wasn't the surgery meant to make those transsexuals feel more at peace with their bodies, thus we'd expect they would have a comparable suicide rate to that of the general population? What you said literally makes no sense...

>The Roman emperor Elagabalus is usually one of the most common examples people bring up, though their status as transgender is strongly disputed.
>Strongly disputed
Also, Crazy guy that elected a horse as an adviser =/= golden standard of transgenderism you want to portray.

Nevertheless, you are missing the point that transgenderism was virtual nonexistence til a few decades ago, unlike other taboo sexuality like homosexuality which we have a plethora of supporting records for.

>Of course
Why make the reply to this then?

>>7682441
>....Um fucking what? How do you judge someone's suicide rate probability without consulting the general population average? Wasn't the surgery meant to make those transsexuals feel more at peace with their bodies, thus we'd expect they would have a comparable suicide rate to that of the general population? What you said literally makes no sense...
You can't gain meaningful information on the effectiveness of the surgery specifically unless you have before and after data to compare. I mean sure, we'd like to reduce the suicide rate to the population average, but any improvement is still an improvement. Like suppose the post-op suicide rate is 4% and the population average is 1%. Looking at that, your first reaction is that the surgery isn't effective. But if you also have data saying the pre-op suicide rate is 9%, then it's clear that the surgery offers a pretty large improvement and is justified unless something more effective is found.

>>7681508
>How can people say that they were born into the wrong gender when their genetic makeup makes them a male or female?
The simple answer is that they're uncomfortable with the gender they are. There are hypotheses that it is due to biology, specifically the concept of "brain sex". But putting the question this way is pretty silly, it's like asking "How can people complain about being poor when economic forces made them that way". It seems to show an inability to differentiate WHAT IS from what one thinks or feels SHOULD BE. People are rarely happy about all their genetic traits, transgender people just have an extreme version of that.

>>7682424
How do we know that now that the society is less agresive to them they are coming out?

>>7681508
>How can people say that they were born into the wrong gender when their genetic makeup makes them a male or female?
Inability to gain awareness and reconcile their place within their culture. A lack of basic philosophy as well, which is why they can't tell the difference between being X gender, and wanting to be treated a certain way by their culture. The conflict results in them thinking they're actually another sex, and this (dim) conclusion is reinforced by others.

I wrote this yesterday, and I'll just copy it.
>>7679996
Gender is a high level cultural illusion. People who struggle with it are really having a struggle with cultural identity, and it stems from a deficit in their underlying philosophies.

They're searching for reconciliation of their role within their creator. Their environment. Unfortunately, better, more useful, more meaningful answers could probably be found within. I went through a phase similar to this when I was younger, only I rejected the body entirely. Tried to strip away culture outright and become a pure representation of the self, a fluid concept. No sex. No "gender". No name. No me, and yet, entirely me. Ultimately I had to learn this me was no more me than any of the others, and it introduced a lot of issues as well.

The internet sucks. If people couldn't find these feedback loops, and if "trans" wasn't "the thing" right now, people might be spurred to try other things instead of latching to a sense of group identity. Self identity is easily made a subset of the group.

>>7681508
>everyone determines their own lives
O RLY

>>7681541
Yeah gender isn't real, it's just an excuse to say you're something you're not.

>my racial gender is black even though I'm physically white

See how retarded that is?

>>7681508
I have nothing against gay or transgender people, I think they deserve all the respect and rights of heterosexual people, marriage, adoption and all that jazz. But we're animals made to fight and reproduce, you have to admit they have a disorder, a harmless one if you want, but somewhere, deep inside their brain chemistry something IS wrong compared to the "standard" programming humans are supposed to have.

>>7682390
You didn't address what OP said, okay so they have backgrounds in biology, how then do they rationalise that they're pretending to be the sex they're not. Of course let's not resort to the gender and sex are different meme, because we all know gender is a mere extension of sex.
> Is something natural good? Desirable?
It's irrelevant. The word "natural" has no basis in reality with the meaning you're suggesting. Replace "natural" with "factual". Is something factual good? Desirable? Not necessarily, but it doesn't have to be, we must work with what is true. Sure maybe everyone in the world would behave perfectly and be happy if we all strictly followed one religion, but if one religion is not true based on what we know empirically, then this can never be the case.
>Is something factual correct?
Yes, always. The question of whether someone shits outside their house is stupid for the same reason using the word "natural" is. There's nothing that is inseparable or defies reality in choosing where you want to shit, on the other hand it is inseparable form reality that XX chromosomes equal female and XY equal male. We need to accept what is true and build the world we want to live in around that, there are so many paradoxes that arise out of accepting Trans people as their preferred genders. How do you define a women? How do you define a man? How will prisons/toilets function? How can we have legal identities be false? If a police needs to breathalyzer you and they need to use the correct variant of the widmark formula, how are they to know your genetic makeup? How are people supposed to identify others as potential child bearers? All these is so easily avoided by simply accepting what is true, that people are assigned a sex at birth and nothing can change it.
>"But why do you have to be an asshole why can't you just let people be happy????"
Biology sucks, fucking deal with it, no one is obligated to care about your wellbeing.

protip: never expose your identity here

Some people feel as if one of their arms or legs doesn't belong to them.

Feelings are weird and you can sometimes distort the feeling of your own body.

But irl I still can't comprehend it at all.. I can somewhat understand the limb thing; you have to keep using and moving it. There may be a glitch in the way your movement feels. I do not get feeling like a different sex at all..

But humins bein humins so w/e. Prolly some attention whores too but w/e

>>7682409
emperor elgabalus
>>7682399
Youre a retard "molly houses" in 18th century London were widespread where men would dress as women and even pretend they were pregnant. It is possible to change gender nowadays as opposed,to then so of course you will see more cases

>>7682720
>racial gender
That's a nonsensical concept. Gender is a counterpart to sex, if there is a similar counterpart to race it wouldn't be called gender.

>>7682734
>supposed to have
There really is no "supposed to" in nature. Gay and trans people are certainly abnormal in a statistical sense, but any sort of value judgement like "supposed to" or "deviation" is something that only comes from humans.

>>7681582
Gender is a useful classification.
For example, when some creepy guy was hitting on my wife, I could easily explain that she's attracted to masculinity, and this feminine pseudowoman is not going to interest her, even as a friend. That was a lot easier than explaining all of the features of each gender and what it is about each one that she likes or dislikes, though she did have to that though muscularity might be considered masculine by many, she sees gender as more of a cerebral thing and spending ages at the gym "sculpting" yourself is pretty gay/feminine (you may disagree). In that sense, your looks can represent your masculine or feminine nature, but are not part of it per se.
This goes for essentially everything in language - more terminology is always going to be useful.

>>7681508
It's called being mentally disturbed.

Transsexuals are sick. It's similar to the people who feel that a part of their body, for an example their hand, isn't their own. They can't really put it in word, but what they want is to saw it off, since having it causes mental discomfort to them.

Obviously, at least at this point of medicine, a man can't become a woman and vice versa. We can manipulate our phenotypes, starting from simple things such as hair dye, ending with hormone treatment, but the truth reminds unchanged - you can dye blonde hair black, but it reminds naturally blonde (and will revert to that color when the dye wears off), similarly a man on female hormones is still a man, even though he may now look female-like. Take the unnatural hormones away and they revert to the true, natural state.

>>7683711
No if you remove the testes they will stay that way
Your logic is bullshit, you need your hand whereas being the opposite sex is a perfectly healthy alternative. Also if hating your body makes you mentally disturbed then so is most of /fit/. Taking roids to become unnaturally grotesquely huge when no human naturally looks like that, nobody really cares but taking estrogen to look female which is a completely natural look for half of humanity suddenly it's evil?

>>7681508
People's sex is a pretty big, complex thing with a bunch of different components. Sometimes those components don't line up properly. In those cases we can use surgery to bring some of those parts back into alignment, which improves the individual's quality of life.

>>7684705
>Taking roids to become unnaturally grotesquely huge when no human naturally looks like that, nobody really cares
Yes, they do. People do care. Steroids are not positively perceived by the majority of... the human species. I don't know why you're wilfully bending things to suit your conclusion. I saw you make this argument earlier and didn't bother to respond, but apparently you actually believe it's solid.

Disliking some aspect of one's body, or self, is not what leads people to call "trans" sorts "mentally disturbed", it's how they fix it, what they think they're fixing, and what this "fix" entails. It's drowning in a mess of self delusion. You cannot become the other sex, to put it bluntly. You only ever be able to be a crude imitation. Not even an approximation, more of a knockoff at best. It's just unfortunate to see. I don't like it, and I don't have to like it. There are a spectrum of good solutions to a problem, and a spectrum of poor ones. This one is poor. Suboptimal. Not ideal. "Bad". Condoning it is closer to abuse ad neglect than kindness. The demand for acceptance is a demand for apathy.

None of it works.

>>7684734
It's unnerving that people like you (or what you're parodying) exist.

>>7681508
In order for a cis (non-trans) person to visualize what it's like being transgender it's easiest for them to imagine being born into the body of the opposite sex while maintaining their current identity. It's a conceptual device.

At some point this device was turned into a self-identification, and it became the standard for diagnosis. It holds true for some transsexuals, but not all. During what I think was the 1970s it was impossible to get treatment without using the idea of being born in the wrong body.

Fast forward to today and this legacy lives on. Many transsexuals learn this dialogue and repeat it to explain themselves. I'm trans and I used it for some time because it was all I knew. Most people are not very self-reflective, but I've done a lot soul searching as to the origins of my condition. I'll explain more in the next post.

Also 98% of discussion about transgenderism on 4chan has got to be conjecture because you guys always get it wrong.

(cont'd)

>>7684737
>what does "really" mean?
You don't see groups on the street protesting it, you don't hear of roiders being beaten up on the street because of it. Yes it is frowned upon but not anywhere near the level of transsexualism.
>You cannot become the other sex
The muh chromosomes argument, least important part of gender seeing as you can still be male or female with all kinds of weird combinations. Physically there is no difference between a woman and a boy who transitioned before puberty, they were shaped by the exact same hormones. You can say hurr she will have no womb but some women are born without wombs.
>I don't like it
So your entire hatred is based on personal opinion? So we should change the laws based on what feels wrong to you?
>drowning in a mess of self delusion
You can say that for any bodily change. Change hair colour, wear contacts, roid, piercings, tattoos (I am actually dead against tattoos but I don't give a fuck because it's their bodies why can't you be the same when it comes to trannies). Body mods get more and more extreme where do you draw the line?
>It's just unfortunate to see
It's funny that you are probably referring to seeing guys in dresses. Well obviously these are the visible ones. I can bet you that this month you walked past at least 5 transsexuals and never had a clue. I blame healthcare guidelines, some dictate that you must present as female before you even look female in order to qualify for treatment, obviously this causes friction with society who are largely comprised of simple-minded people who will get angry at someone for no other reason than that they look different.

>>7684748
for me, discovering that I am trans was a slow process, but over time I learned that I was not satisfied with the male social role, and that the more I learned about womanhood the more appealing it became. The physical transformation for me is only important insofar that it primes people to treat me as a woman and not as a man. If society made up a new gender where I didn't have to appear quite as female I would probably take that route instead, but currently we have only man and woman.

Being trans is just shitty luck. When you're born you're predisposed to develop one way or another, and you are raised to become a man or woman. That sort of one-size-fits-all approach cannot work for everyone; a tiny portion of the population learn that what they were taught isn't for them.

Another thing I remember is that in many ways I saw my mother as the model for my behavior and not my dad. I emulated her more often than my dad (and my friends found it annoying when I did)

I don't feel I was "born the wrong sex," I'm fine with my sex. It would have been nice to have been raised as a female but there was no way for me to know early enough.

Oh and the very existence of transsexuals disproves OP's argument. If maleness and femaleness are completely inherent/genetic transsexualism could not exist.

>>7684754
>You don't see groups on the street protesting it,
Nor do you see groups on the street protesting heroin abuse. People who use steroids know (roughly) what they're doing. They aren't saturating the media and popular culture with demands that they be accepted, agreed with, and acknowledged. I also wouldn't be surprised if some intragym shit goes on that ends with someone beat up or dead when the movement of drugs (ie steroids) is involved.

There's nothing to protest. A parallel doesn't exist.

>Yes it is frowned upon but not anywhere near the level of transsexualism
It's probably better to view this as the way it is frowned upon, not separate it into some hazy attempt to quantify its "level". People see someone moving towards having their genitals cut up and ravaging (altering) their body with hormone replacement therapy, they're going to be offput the same way they're not into their friend getting deep into black tar heroin.

Actually, I want to drop this parallel. We're dropping steroids and drugs entirely. There is no real comparison, it's false. It resolves down to something else, and that's the human perception of sexuality, sexual viability, and health. On a higher level it's perceived as making a mistake, and for sound reasons.

>The muh chromosomes argument
Yes, your chromosomes define your sex. Including if you have two Y chromosomes, male with ovaries inside, female with testicles, both genitalia, etc. These are developmental issues and not as ambiguous as you're trying to make it seem.

>>7684789
[continued]
>Physically there is no difference between a woman and a boy who transitioned before puberty
No one should be making the decision to "transition" before they're even at puberty. That's moronic.
Secondly, you're incorrect. Male and female brains have a number of differences, and these aren't mediated by hormones. Furthermore, estrogen is actually greatly inhibited by the blood brain barrier in females, but not females. Estrogen is a main factor in "masculinization", but the same process cannot readily occur in someone biologically female. There are protein differences. There are anatomical differences. And that's just the brain alone. The musculature and bone construction of the entire body is different, regardless of trophism from testosterone etc. You are not born a blank slate and then shaped solely by hormones. It just doesn't work that way.

>So your entire hatred is based on personal opinion?
I don't hate anyone. And of course I'm operating on opinion, as are you.

>So we should change the laws based on what feels wrong to you?
Yep. Because what feels wrong to me, within my own framework, reflects what is net wrong for the greater whole. When you advocate for prepubescent people being "given the option" to "transition", I do have a problem with that. They have absolutely no means to even start to contextualize what you're offering and or pushing on them while believing otherwise.

>You can say that for any bodily change.
No. You can't. And the more you try to argue it, the more you're going to write yourself into a corner.
>Change hair colour etc
Temporary. The rest are varying degrees of stupidity.
>Body mods get more and more extreme where do you draw the line?
Somewhere arbitrary and personal. The same place every other line is drawn, and for the same reasons.

>It's funny that you are probably referring to seeing guys in dresses.
I'm not.

>>7684790
>estrogen is actually greatly inhibited by the blood brain barrier in females, but not females.
but not males*

>>7682245
Attraction and identity are not equivalent.

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I can understand their plight being a transginger myself. That is, I'm a ginger guy trapped in a non-ginger caucasian guy's body.

Speaking of what can you guys point me to on the molecular basis for gingerism and what sort of drugs I might be able to take to transition over

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itt: bunch of homo bashers proping up there arguments with falsehoods

>>7684739
Sounds perfectly serious, and accurate (but somewhat simplified) to me.

>>7684789
>Yes, your chromosomes define your sex. Including if you have two Y chromosomes, male with ovaries inside, female with testicles, both genitalia, etc. These are developmental issues and not as ambiguous as you're trying to make it seem.
What about if you're born XX with a penis? Or XY with a vagina? Those are real conditions that exist.

>>7684790
>Yep. Because what feels wrong to me, within my own framework, reflects what is net wrong for the greater whole. When you advocate for prepubescent people being "given the option" to "transition", I do have a problem with that. They have absolutely no means to even start to contextualize what you're offering and or pushing on them while believing otherwise.
Even though I kind of agree with you, something "feeling wrong" to you should have no bearing on what the laws are.

>>7681508
back to your containment board
gender roleplaying is not science

>>>/lgbt/

Can't hopefully point out the reason why (societal changes, better medicine, or newly introduced chemicals) even if it was the case, but there's a possibility people are being more conscious about gender identity than, say, a century ago, hence gender becomes a center of topics in politics.

Transgender politics relies on Psychology rather than Science to legitimise itself. That should answer your question. Much like homosexuality, transgender is a learned behaviour that should be treated, not enabled.

A 12 year old girl can consent to having hormone treatment to become a phenotypic male, but can't consent to pleasurable acts? Please.

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>>7681508

>>7685286
>What about if you're born XX with a penis? Or XY with a vagina? Those are real conditions that exist.
If you're unambiguously born with genitals that don't appear to reflect your genes, you're a very rare case. Up to the individual at that point. Though again, in the even rarer event this is determined in childhood, they can't really contextualize whether or not they should get rid of their probably perfectly functional sex organs.

>Even though I kind of agree with you, something "feeling wrong" to you should have no bearing on what the laws are.
You're joking right? What do you think law is?

Law exists for two reasons. To formally define standards of behavior which allow a near omnipresent superior force (justice system and cops) to scare people into not causing other people bad feels. Law is based on feelings. That's what it is. It's (superficially) an extension of morality, which depends on feels at its core.

The other part is obviously to engineer a system where certain groups have power over others, and the power to keep their power. Too bad, so sad, but that's what we are. You won't hear me claiming we aren't mostly shit.

>>7685852
>homosexuality
>learned behavior

>>7681508
being transgender is just a harmless mental illness

>>7685852
As I understand it, it's not the person consenting to hormone treatment so much as the doctor choosing it as the appropriate treatment for a medical condition. Like underage children get drastic surgery and medical treatment all the time, but no one ever talks about consent being an issue with those.

>>7685863
This picture is stupid, it's because gender is a social construct that people born with a dick, are labeled as male, and then decide they are actually a different gender.

I don't believe in that bullshit, but that picture is retarded.

>>7687492
No, "deciding to be a different gender" is largely due to brain biology. The "gender is a social construct" view was started by John Money who argued that there were no fundamental innate psychological differences between men and women, and that the only aspect of being a man or woman apart from anatomy/reproduction was socialization. But now that there's studies pointing to such a thing as "brain sex", the "social construct" idea nowadays really only applies to gender roles.