***Christian General Thread***

Shamelessly bumping my own thread! But in an original way.

Isnt the quran bible and the torah kinda the same book ?

>>37153841
If christ loved me why did my mother kill herself for heavy depression and gave me schizophrenia on top of that?

>>37153879
In what ways? If you're talking about claiming to be an Abrahamic religion then yeah but no they're different religions with different gods and different ways of achieving salvation.

>>37153889
Well first of all this question assumes that this earth was meant for enjoyment but according to the Bible it was not. This world is a fallen world, and we desperately are trying to achieve to go to that place which has no suffering. To better explain read what I wrote in an earlier thread here and if it doesn't adequately answer your question then feel free to as further question.

The age old questions of pain and suffering. This question, above all others including those who suppose there are contradictions in the Bible, including those who claim the text of the Bible aren't historically reliable and above those who say that it is a false gospel, is the one is most hard to answer because it involves human emotions as well as brings God benevolence into question.

First, of I would like to say we are sojourners
on this earth. This place on earth should not be seen as a destination but rather a journey. A journey of us seeking to return to our creator and finding Shalom(Jewish word for peace) with him.

In this world, there is pain and suffering, but even in suffering good can come out of it. Through trial and tribulation, we can become stronger and feel better connected to those who have gone through the same pain. A better illustration of what Ia m trying to say can be found in Romans

>Not only that, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope.
>Romans 5:3-4

But you shouldn't lose hope because through this pain and suffering God gives you a light at the end of the tunnel. Christ himself went through pain on this earth: he was ridiculed, spat on, beat and even nailed to a cross naked. And all for what? It was love. He truly sought out your salvation and a way for you to be free form this earthly pain and did so by "suffering."

In the case of your GrandFather, I think you should rest easy. Like you said...

Cont

>>37153889
Cont here

>He always kind to everybody, was religious and loved his family very much.

This was all Christ was asking for, and by your grandfather, following the basic principles of faith he was finally free from suffering and is probably much happier in the place he is now than the happiest person on earth is.

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what the hell is this

some kind of 'social experiment' to see what kind of responses you get? i don't believe for a second there is an actual real-life christian here trying to convert 4chan users

>>37153900
They are abrahamic relegions but as far as i know the god mentiond in those three books are the same god those three religions have the same prophets mentiond in them. Correct me if im wrong

>tfw even if there was proof god existed i wouldn't follow him
What do christfags make of this i wonder

>>37153999
Well, I guess there are some. In fact, if you follow the cont of: you'll see that in fact there are a lot of Christians on this site. I have spoken to devout Catholics and so much more. Anyway if you feel this way then feel free to ask questions, and I will answer to the best of my abilities God willing.

Question: are the 150 billion people that existed before christinanity in hell right now?

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>>37154051
sure i have a question, why do you value faith as a virtue?

>>37154027
>the god mentiond in those three books are the same god
Muslims would say that, but I disagree since they're very different gods

>same prophets mentiond in them. Correct me if I'm wrong
Yeah, by names they're mention, but in the Quran, they're given Arabic names like Joseph is called Yusuf. Also, just like with God, I believe that the prophets are also not the same. Although a Muslim might say otherwise.

Christanon your threads are getting weak.

You aren't even sure in your own faith and by your own words without having faith you are doomed to everlasting tourment.

>>37154035
Yep, in fact, the Bible talk about this directly with the story of Lazarus and the rich man. As further if you would like to know what the story is about.

>>37154098
How are they different gods? Are you saying there are other gods too?

>>37154074
Nope, people in the OT were considered good and blameless.

>>37154106
Sorry if I come off that way. What makes you think that? In another thread, someone said he didn't want to talk to me because I came off as too dogmatic and you are saying otherwise but anyways feel free to ask questions.

>>37153456
how much can you tell me about angelology and demonology? How many Satans are there?

What do you think about the concept of the demiurge? How many archangels are there? What do they each do?

IMO the above type of stuff is the most interesting part of the abrahamic religions, zoroastrianism, the cult spin-offs, etc. as well as how all of the above faiths relate to and emerged from babylonian religions.

I don't care about jesus, just tell me about the divine and hellish participants in the apocalypse and how they affected and affect the world.

>>37154133
No, the god of the Quran, which they claim is the same God as in the Bible, is a different god. That's what I'm saying.

>>37154152
The hell? No they weren't. They were more evil than us. SO evil that he had to destroy them all.

Preach it brother
Praise Jesus, and Kek

>>37154164
And you think this is an evil god?

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>>37154222
SHADILAY
JESUS AND KEK ARE ALLIES

>>37154164
How do you know its not the same one? What are your reasons? How is he different?

Is it because he's brown and Jesus is white? ( just keking you)

>>37154091
Faith vs. actions.

You see the thing about works is that with works anyone can fake it. Imagine having a business and people working for you but only worked because they were getting money at the end. Would they be doing it out of the love that is in their hearts? How about if you were a teacher living is England back when children were being hit in school for misbehaving. If a child sat down still and listened would that be because he is a good student of fearing punishment? Now you see with faith, if it is true, produces love for God and out of love we do what is pleasing to God.

>But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.
James 2:18

We show God our devotion by out works but not ou of obligation because Christ already died for our sins but out of love; I mean Christ had already died for our sins and so what could we possibly add on to that? Are we to say that the blood of Christ is not sufficient and we are to add onto that? No, his blood cleansed us of sin and to be cleansed of your sins you first must believe and Christ will do the rest.

So the reason why God values faith so much is that it is sincere and brings forth actions which are done out of your nature and love for God and not out of obligation.

Hope that answered your question. As further questions, if you wish and I will answer to the best of my abilities.

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>>37153456
>One enters into heaven through faith alone
*hides thread*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JIYQTNbnNE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L14UNjaZJm8

>>37154319
And where is the Muslim squar?>>37154319

>>37154315
I didn't ask why God values faith, I asked why you value it.

Because the only way you can believe that any God exists is through faith. Why should I abandon my evidence-based view of reality and adopt a faith-based worldview instead?

>>37154159
>just tell me about the divine and hellish participants in the apocalypse and how they affected and affect the world.
read revelations; it's pretty gnarly and scary to read.

>>37154200
Not everyone. Just the sinners. Look at job, look at Abraham, look at Sara and look at Isaiah. All good godly men. Yeah, there were sinners that got punished, but not all were.

>>37154232
I think that they're a false god and so not good.

>>37154260
>How do you know it's not the same one? What are your reasons? How is he different?
The values, god's justice and law and what not. In Islam, it seems as though God doesn't care that much about sin as long as you just follow his law here on earth.

>Is it because he's brown and Jesus is white? ( just keking you)
I know but Jesus wasn't white.

>>37154383
>I didn't ask why God values faith, I asked why you value it.
Same reason why God does. It brings forth good and sincere actions in man.

>Why should I abandon my evidence-based view of reality and adopt a faith-based worldview instead?
Well, in fact, the Bible would agree on using reason, read this:

>"Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool.
>"Come now, let us reason together,
Isaiah 1:18

I, in fact, believe that there is very good evidence to believe in Christianity and I'm more than happy to share with you why.

>>37154319
>arbitrary complexity equals to truth
>catholics actually believe this
>not realizing everything after Lutheranism was a mistake

>>37154319
I have seen that video by brother Dimond and feel as though it is lacking.

>>37154385
>read revelations

I've tried reading the bible, but figuring out who's doing what at any given time is hard.

That's why some people think Lucifer, Helel, Satan, Satanael, the snake, the beast, the anti-christ, etc., etc., are all the same being and others think they are different,

Which archangel is the angel of death? Gabriel? Samael? is Samael fallen? is he the demiurge?

Is Lilith a thing or not?

etc.

I want an explanation from someone who considers themselves knowledgeable about christianity. That's why I came to this thread.

>>37154498
Watch the first video (5min one) and stop doing mental gymnastics.

>>37154554
>Watch the first video (5min one)
it's an excerpt from the second video. Also, I have read James 2 and believe in Sola Fide more!

>stop doing mental gymnastics.
lol, how? All I said is that I've seen it and thought it was lacking.

>>37154455
>the Bible would agree on using reason
reason is not the same as evidence.

>there is very good evidence to believe in Christianity and I'm more than happy to share with you why.
as long as this evidence does not quote from the bible, then go ahead.

>>37154385
You're the one who said everyone in the of was good and blameless not me.

Was Adam and eve blameless too?

>>37154629
All his proof believe and faith is based on scripture from the bible.

He prides himself in that.

Do people who were born before the invention of Christianity go to hell? What about people who lived in parts of the world that had no contact with Christianity? What about people who know of Christianity but were raised in a culture where Christianity is not the dominant religion? Seems like god would have to be a real prick to enforce those rules.

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>>37153456
>One enters into heaven through faith alone, for Christ had already died for our sins and so what could we possibly add on to that?
Fuck OFF christanon

>>37154526
I don't know too much on this topic so I'll pick and choose from what I do know.

>Lucifer
The name of Satan prior to his fall. Also, hebrew for light bringer.

>Helel
Is the King James Version rendering of the Hebrew word in Isaiah 14:12. This word, transliterated heylel, occurs only once in the Hebrew Bible.

>Satanael
This being comes from the apocryphal book called the Second Book of Enoch, also called the Slavonic Book of Enoch, contains references to a Watcher (Grigori) called Satanael. It is a pseudepigraphic text of an uncertain date and unknown authorship. The text describes Satanael as being the prince of the Grigori who was cast out of heaven and an evil spirit who knew the difference between what was "righteous" and "sinful". A similar story is found in the book of 1 Enoch; however, in that book, the leader of the Grigori is called Semjaza.

> the snake, the beast, the anti-christ
They could all perhaps be the same person but really it could just be demons and angels of the devil who work with him. the devil doesn't work alone.

>is he the demiurge?
No, the LORD created all things.

>Lilith
lilith is a mythical being also known as the first wife of Adam in Jewish folklore. So he's not real.

>I want an explanation from someone who considers themselves knowledgeable about Christianity.
Knowledgeable on certain topics on the entire bible but I'll try.

>>37154645
>You're the one who said everyone in the of was good and blameless not me.
Never said that "everyone" in the OT was good and blameless I said:

>people in the OT were considered good and blameless.

Not all people though.

>Was Adam and eve blameless too?
For a time yeah.

>>37154164
What about the Jewish god

>>37154769
See I thought helel was the greek name for lucifer, while lucifer was roman, lucifer meant light bringer while helel meant morning star.

I thought Satan meant "adversary" in hebrew and there were just a bunch of people and demons that that applied to. I mean the satan in job works for god, but other satans don't.

If lilith is from one telling of genesis, and not from another, how do we tell which is true?

Demiurge is a decent explanation for the problem of evil though. but I guess it's more gnostic than christian as an idea.

How many demon lords are there? How many archangels are there? how many layers of heaven and hell are there?

>>37154729
>Do people who were born before the invention of Christianity go to hell?
Nope, people in the OT were considered good and blameless.

The Bible doesn't give a direct answer, but I think the answer leans closer to probably yeah. Evidence for would be in the times of Noah. When Noah was building the ark in preparation fro the flood, what happened to those who did not enter the waters? When the floods came down and swept the earth were those people who lived in different places and never knew of the ark to be saved have the waters move past them? Of course not. Even they although not knowing about it was swept by the waters women children and animal. And if you take the position that them ark represented Jesus then you'd have to believe that even those who do not know of Christ will to be taken by the waters. But then again. But then n again the Bible doesn't give us a clear answer so who knows.

>>37154752
Why do you feel this way?

>>37154841
OT God == NT God

>>37154904
demiurge is also a good explanation for the old testament "god" being worse than the new testament god.

>>37154926
I believe they're exactly the same.

>>37154955
why'd you put two equal signs then. I thought you meant does not equal. also why is old testament god such a shit.

>>37155010
>I thought you meant does not equal
in what context does a double equals sign ever mean "not equal"?

>>37154851
>satan in job
I was listening to a rabbi and talk about this, and according to him the being that stood before God was called the accuser. He was the person who would come and try to accuse people of their sins.

>If Lilith is from one telling of Genesis, and not from another, how do we tell which is true?
No, it was a false tale about a non-existent being. Like, think of it as fanfic and gnostic. It actually doesn't exist.

>>37155010
>why'd you put two equal signs then.
I do programming, and in Java two equal signs mean exactly the same whereas one equal sign means to assign a value to a variable.

>also why is old testament god such a shit.
He's not. Their god just focuses on one side of God. The entire OT God is telling us something, that we as humans are sinful and deserve his wrath. It also focuses more on something IE his wrath, but this doesn't make him shit since he is giving people what they deserve. But in the NT there is the same person but this time since we have entered a new covenant he has decided to show us mercy and has done away with the law.

>>37155058
in what context is a double equal sign used in place if a single equal sign? there's far more ways to write does not equal than equals. but this is off topic.

>>37155107
>in what context is a double equal sign used in place if a single equal sign?
programming.

>>37155117
ok then. guess i learned something valuable in this thread.

>>37155089
No wonder Satan is hated, what a dick

>>37155107
Double equal means he's comparing
He needs to use a single equals sign since he's arbitrarily setting them equal to each other

>>37154851
>Demiurge is a decent explanation for the problem of evil though. but I guess it's more gnostic than Christian as an idea.
He's not. Their god just focuses on one side of God. The entire OT God is telling us something, that we as humans are sinful and deserve his wrath. It also focuses more on something IE his wrath, but this doesn't make him shit since he is giving people what they deserve. But in the NT there is the same person but this time since we have entered a new covenant he has decided to show us mercy and has done away with the law.

>How many demon lords are there?
I don't know, but all daemons are called angels of the devil, and so perhaps Satan rules over al of them.

>How many Archangels are there?
From my understanding, there is 1, and that is Gabriel.

>how many layers of heaven and hell are there?
Depends on what you mean. I think Genesis answers this. But there is one heaven if you're talking about the place of God.

Are you a Calvinist ChristAnon?

>>37155163
Yep, but I try not to call myself a Calvinist since I want Christ to be the centre of my "Christ"ianity. The think about Calvinism is that although I do believe in the 5 points of "TULIP", I wouldn't call myself a Calvinist since I disagree with some other stuff John Calvin has said. All grace should go to God and not one man!

>>37155162
As far as I know about archangels it used to be accepted that there was 7, but now theres about 4. I mean why would Gabriel be the only one left when Michael is far more important.
What happened to Raphael, Uriel, Sayriel, etc.

>>37155185
>he's a calvinist
Oh, so that's why you're so insufferable

>>37155199
>What happened to Raphael, Uriel, Sayriel, etc
It depends more on the branch of Christianity. In Catholicism, they believe in three archangels: Gabriel, Michael and Raphael but in Protestantism they believe in Michael, Gabriel and Abaddon. The Catholics get theirs from apocryphal books such as the book of Esdras and book of torbit.

>>37155284
>Oh, so that's why you're so insufferable
You really think that of me? Sorry if I come off that way. If there are any questions regarding reformed theology you have, feel free to ask and I will answer

hey fuck you man,, atheisym is the real deal, my man. god doesnt exist, and if he did, he would be extremely evil.

>>37155391
u will burn

>>37155391
>god doesnt exist,
Yeah, he does!

>>37155391
get out of here edge-kid. come back when you can stop tipping your fedora. there are plenty of interesting things about religion, and there's little reason to attack someone about religion unless they are a terrorist.

>>37154596
>I have read James 2 and believe in Sola Fide more!
Because you may be brain damaged.

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>>37153456
>Jehova's Witness browsing /r9k/ in his leisure time although he knows that it does not count as Jehova's Heaven points for his organization weekly schedule.

We don't need your religion anymore.
Go and worship your god.
He is irrelevant for me.

>>37155489
Ok, a common assertion that I get by Roman Catholics is that the book of James refutes sola fide, but in fact it doesn't when we look deep into these verses you'd see that in fact, the very verses Roman Catholics use to disprove faith alone, in fact, reafirm its teachings whereas refuting some vague strawman notion of what they think sola fide is. Ok, let's look at James 2.

>What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?
James 2:14

Also, let's check out Romans.

>For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
Romans 3:28

Now, these may seem contradictory, but when you look deeper, you'd understand that they, in fact, can be harmonised.

When James says that faith without works is dead he, in fact, means that if your faith does not bring forth good fruits, then that faith cannot save. If someone claims to be a Christian but steals, lies and hurts others then that faith is a false faith. If we look deeper into James, it says this.

>But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.
James 2:18

This gives us a better picture and in fact, shows that our works flow from our faith and give evidence for it. But theoretically, you could go out stealing, murdering and committing adultery you would still go heaven because you have been justified by faith but do you know why you wouldn't? Because you are being sanctified by God and we would never do that because we have the love for God, which God has put into us. also read: >>37154315

>>37155635
I'm a reformed baptists and I don't know much about Jehovah witnesses but I'll check you guys out.

>>37155925
I thought you were someone else but I didn't hide I just had to go somewhere but I did, in fact, come back and answered other comments. But let's discuss again. I'm in a far better mood now than I was back then.

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>>37155793
I already addressed and refuted every single one of those mental gymnastics the other day (I was the anon referencing the greek text) before you went quiet after getting BTFO and letting your thread 404. http://desuarchive.org/r9k/thread/36991226/

Now I'll really hide the thread because you're dishonest and this is a waste of time, goodbye.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JIYQTNbnNE

>>37155994
Let's carry on where we left off. Re-post the posts I didn't respond to and I'll answer to the best of my abilities, god willing.

>>37155916
I'm not currently a Jehova Witness, but I know how they preach their gospels online in every single forum of the Internet trying to convert people, so I supposed you were one of them.

The pic I added to my post is the Raven Banner, used by the Great Danish Army during their invasion of the British Islands.

Instead of checking out about JW, check this video, it will help you better:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bokFS6wLoi0

It is not a very long one, but you can find others in that channel.

>>37155916
>>37156176
Tell me, ChristAnon. What do you choose first: your family or your god?

>>37156572
>god
And I'm more than happy to say why!

>>37154789
No someone said what about all the ppl before the bible, did they go to hell and you said the people, meaning all of them, of the OT or whatever were blameless.

But we can go with what you said. Which brings us back to what about the ppl before the but bible. Are they in hell? They couldn't possibly have faith, so if by faith alone, how can they be in heaven?

>>37156676
Okey, I have all the night to talk with you. Tell me why.

>>37156703
Again what I meant was there were people in the OT who did go to heaven but not all. All pit bulls are dogs, but not all dogs are pit bulls. People in the OT went to heaven, but not all people in the OT went to heaven

>But we can go with what you said. Which brings us back to what about the ppl before the but bible. Are they in hell? They couldn't possibly have faith, so if by faith alone, how can they be in heaven?
Well, the Bible was there since the start of civilisation IE Adam and Eve, but if you're talking about people who never heard then, as far as I know, the Bible doesn't give a direct answer, but I think the answer leans closer to probably yeah. Evidence for would be in the times of Noah. When Noah was building the ark in preparation fro the flood, what happened to those who did not enter the waters? When the floods came down and swept the earth were those people who lived in different places and never knew of the ark to be saved have the waters move past them? Of course not. Even they although not knowing about it was swept by the waters women children and animal. And if you take the position that them ark represented Jesus then you'd have to believe that even those who do not know of Christ will be taken by the waters. But then again. But then n again the Bible doesn't give us a clear answer so who knows.

>>37154375
>implying Islam isn't a false religion that doesn't bring eternal damnation

>>37156746
Well, how can you love anything more that God? Yes, our mothers took care o us for 9 months inside the womb and our fathers took care for us but who gave us our parents? Who gave us the hands we play with and who gave us the friends we have. It was God and so how can one love the gift more than the gift bearer?

>"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple.
Luke 14:26

This verse has bee misinterpreted by so many people but lets' skip that for now. This verse tells us that we must love God more than anyone else and even your own life, something that was done my the apostles.

>However, I consider my life worth nothing to me; my only aim is to finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me--the task of testifying to the good news of God's grace.
Acts 20:24

The reason being is because since we love the gift that God has given us IE family, friends and even life, how can we love that which God has given us more than God himself?

>>37157023
So, according to your post, I should love an hypothetical god (who may exist or may not) instead of my own family because that god is the responsible of my existence?
That may seem somehow logical from a theist perspective, but let's suppose that tomorrow morning, during the breakfast, I told to my daughter: "I love you, but I love God more than you. I know you don't believe in him, so from now, there will be no peace in this house."
Maybe my exemple is a bit exaggerated, but that's how that verse (Luke 14:26) sounds to me. As far as I know, no god gave me my life. My ancestors did, and they are the reason why I am alive. Before my ancestors? Well, I don't know, but calling it 'Jehova' or 'Jesus' or 'Yahve' is not the answer, for sure. That would be a reason provided by a unilateral interpretation of history from a certain people, in a certain place, from a certain moment in history, and from a certain book.
Christianity has existed in Europe and the world for only two milleniums. What about the beliefs of my ancestors from the time before Christianity? Thousands of years before Christianity. How many of them prefered 'God' instead of their family?