Explain to me why (((they))) want so many people to start learning

>>135371517
They need to hire cheap code monkeys.

cuz technology is teh future

Virtue signalling without even the slightest possibility of accomplishing anything has become the standard leftist MO.

so they can become technologically literate and post on 4chan

>>135371517
Programming was always going to be my main career in life. It was so fun and fucking awesome. I still love doing it from time to time, but it being infested by pseudo intellectual dumbasses who bog down the field and the market has ruined it for me. That's why I gave up on programming as a job and am just going to do Welding.

While Programming becomes the new doctor and people in it make nothing, I'm going to be fucking doing blue collar jobs in a market that has a shortage of blue collar workers, making shit loads of money... It just sucks that I can't do it programming though.

Ah well. I know I am making the right choice everytime I go on /g/.

Not everything is something sinister. They want people to stop crying they can't get jobs with their fine art history degrees and start learning something useful instead.

>>135372251
Yo, fellow welding bro

>>135372341

Yes, because corporations and governments are known for spending lots of time and money on things that don't directly benefit them

>>135372640
Yeah sure they totally are part of some huge conspiracy

>>135371977
Bruh everyone here got to stop crying

>>135372251
How is it the new doctor? There I'd a doctor shortage and doctors make millions

>>135371517
>PHP
gay

>>135372890
Because before, parents and mothers would have their children grow up and tell them
>Go to college/med school to become a doctor. That's where the money is at.
But now, it's
>Go to coding school and become a coder!!! code code code!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The only difference is it is extremely difficult to go through med school, but programming classes are fucking easy. So this leads to massive amounts of idiots in the field with qualifications.

>>135372890

Doctors make like $150k

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>>135372640
Not a conspiracy, finding competent engineers is fucking difficult.

Throwing more idiots at the problem won't fix the labor shortage though. I think encouraging more people to enroll in a STEM program is gigantic failure of an idea.

If they graduate, which is unlikely, they'll be unemployable. They'll just be more noise to sift through when we do interviews.

>flood the job market with semi-competent codemonkeys
>drive wages down even more than H1B pajeets already do

>>135371517
there is no fucking shortage of programmers, it's the excuse the Obama admin used to import more shitskins than we actually had jobs for.

false numbers on the government jobs stats fucks white people over who go through a program think it's actually in demand.

Fuck king nigger.

>>135372999
>but programming classes are fucking easy
nice digits.

Gonna have to disagree with you though friendo.

The failure rates for most universities with relevant CS programs is 20% (impacted). This is before we start talking about the 50% retention rate for people that graduate.

>>135371517
Increase supply to meet demand and drive down salaries

It's just rational

>>135371517
>Is there really a programmer shortage or is this just some meme?

There is a shortage of competent programmers, and there always will be. The market is already flooded with incompetent ones, and these "let them eat script" initiatives are just making that problem worse.

t. ten years of professional software development.

Georgia guidestones

Unite humanity with a new living language.

>The internet...

>>135373213
>there is no fucking shortage of programmers
There is a huge shortage of competent "programmers"... or software engineers or devs.

Most of what's available on the market are idiots that can't be trusted to get anything done on their own.

>>135373104
>dumb down american education system
>30 years later: "WOOOOOOW WHY ARE COLLEGE GRADS SO STUPID"

why are boomers so retarded

>>135371854
This.
Programmers are dime a dozen

>>135373333
still cheaper to pay pajeet in India $0.50/hr to build a half-assed solution than pay an American

>>135371854
This. It's about driving cost down in tech for fatter margins. Problem is throwing shit coders in the mix frustrates the good ones and turns the codebase into shit. So maybe they're subversively trying to destroy tech?

>>135373235
>the 50% retention rate for people that graduate.

Which just goes to show how much easier the classes are than actually doing the job professionally.

>>135371854

this
they hate it when only a few have a monopoly on a skill

>>135371517
its a wild goose chase. (((they))) want you to waste time trying to make a smart phone app so (((they))) dont think you expect (((them))) to produce more jobs

>>135373412
Not if you want to have a usable system at the end of the process.

>>135373315
It actually won't work that well. A lot of software firms have woken up from the dream that if they throw enough low wage street shitters at a problem, they'll get usable software out of it.

The same is said for the hiring process for software engineering based teams/firms/groups/etc. They want people that will be able to survive on their own without consistent hand-holding. It's fine to pick someone out of college that doesn't know dick for a year or 2, but if they aren't hitting mid or senior level key benchmarks; they were a bad hire.

>>135373333
quads of truth

>>135371517
its all about "muh diversity"

i would estimate literally 9/10 software company career pages are bragging about how diversity is so important

however its pure virtue signaling. you cannot worship diversity while hiring the best talent, period. you can have one or the other.

>>135372251
Welcome to the welding world, enjoy your complementary stiff knees and spots in your vision. You ever need extra money you can find work pretty much anywhere doing automotive-related stuff part-time as well.

>>135371517
new kinds of soldiers for a new kind of war

>>135373531
hire me then

I can use C, C++, C#.

Prefer C++ and C#, have also dabbled with C++/CLI (CLR/managed extensions to C++).

I can write a C or C++ DLL, make a C++/CLI wrapper around it, and use it in C# as a full library.

>>135373742
im faded as fuck man

>>135372981
There will aways be php code to fix. Use your brain. It's a solid career path for a long time. And so easy that you have time to learn better shit on the side.

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>>135373548
Every project I've worked on for the past decade either had too few people (because they only hired competent people) or tons of incompetent people (80% or so of the work force).

>>135373402
Closer to 700k-1.2M a dozen. 500k if you really want a team of idiots to fuck you over and piss your money away.

>>135373461
Not going to disagree; most of it's a cake walk. The only useful classes in CS are theory-level classes.

Direct implementation classes were using technologies and practices that were out of date in the early 90's. Then again, most of the teachers left the industry to become professors right around the time of some pivotal industry changes.

>>135372999
Programming is not easy at all. Med is wayyy fucking easier. I'm in the medical field and don't understand a thing of code and doubt I ever could.

so they can offer something to the rapidly approaching post labor world you stupid fuck.

learn to code retard.

>>135373008
Where? I knew they made a lot I never knew they made that much tho

>>135372251
>It just sucks that I can't do it programming though.
>not programming a welding robot

>>135373912
It's a very thin subject in reality with a lot of consulting documentation, and writing your own.

>>135373751
Woopy do. What other technologies have you worked with? What programming architectures do you know? Have you ever built a application from scratch? Can you only do middle tier work or are you full stack?

>>135373817
When your tossed into a room full of idiots and expected to make "shit work"

It's a test of your leadership and management abilities. Crack the whip & make yourself high man on the scrotum pole.

Lead your team of fucktards to success.

>>135373235
Yes but that doesn't exclude the fact that you dont even need the qualifications to get a programming job in the first place.

>>135374014
I'm pretty good at what I do but I can't even learn French. How would I learn a very hard mathematical language

>>135374070
Yeah, every project I've been on I've ended up in a leadership role.

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>>135373333
That's because of the meaningless metrics for landing a decent software engineering job. Invert a linked list, balance a tree.

It incentivizes gaming the system. Cram a few hundred "trick" questions that you will never have to use in real life and you are in. This is precisely why you will see so many Indians working at tech firms, who under normal circumstances can't solve a problem if their life depended on it.

>>135374105
Yeah you do. Having a degree is your foot in the door.
If you don't start with at least that; you're fucked.
Your degree is only important for your first 2 years of employment as a "professional." After that, you could've graduated from Lego University with a Bachelor's in Kiddy Diddling and you'd still get hired if your references were good and your work experience was respectable.

>>135374070
Dumb people are impossible to control tho

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>>135374045
Windows API, Boost library, QT (a little)

I can function in pretty much any position you put me in. I have written quite a few small applications.

>>135374335
Carrot & stick.
You can control them pretty well if you don't mind being an asshole.
You might not eat lunch with them on a daily basis, but they'll get their shit done just to not deal with you.

>>135374389
Great. Put together a decent looking resume and put it up on Monster. You should be getting call from recruiters within a few days.

>>135374509

why are u such an asshole?

>>135374335
Dumb people who know you're smarter than them are controllable. It's the ones which are both high energy and incompetent which cause problems.

>>135374423
There's dumb people at my dad's business and no matter what he says they laze around while the smart people do whatever he says

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>tfw too stupid to code

>>135373213
This.
They just do not want to pay the high salaries that good programmers demand. They would rather have code monkeys that needs to have everything double checked. Case in point the fiasco of the Obamacare website.

>>135372251

no decent programmer would give up such a cush lifestyle because of "pseudointellectuals"

you're probably either not that great or just an insufferable prick yourself.

>implying you even have to work with other people face to face to be in development

>>135374176
I never understood the gay ass brain teaser shit, but what's so difficult about an inverted binary tree?

That sounds like fair game.

>>135373548
At my job they don't care if you are good or bad just that you get the software working. Software development is like a ship. As long as it's running no one cares. I hate this industry I wish I could start my own business and get out. Everyone fucking makes it hard because everyone wants job security and this leads to so much wasted time.

there isn't a shortage of programmers

there is a shortage of cheap programmers

so how do you make them cheaper? train more people to know how to do it. even if only 1% end up as programmers, 1% of 30 million is more than 1% of 5 million. companies don't have to pay money to train people anymore, they can just get Obama to subsidize their business training with your tax dollars via public schooling.

>>135374660
He should consider firing them or punishing them with bitch duty tasks.

>>135374785
Keeping the numbers faked allowed Obama Admin to import more H1B visa shits too.

>>135374812
He can't fire them but the other idea sounds good

>>135374295

>"need a degree"
>hundreds of faggot web devs who graduated from a 3 month coding bootcamp making $90k

>>135374772
That's a management and product level problem.
That's simply bad leadership. If they're not paying you guys to create a quality product, foremost. They're wasting your time & their money.

If they're not hammering people to test their work more thoroughly then they fucked up. I've dealt with teams bitching & moaning that they spent more time than they liked testing their work. But guess what, they got all their shit done and it didn't break on demo day!

They can suck dick.

>>135371854
This, especially as they disregard millenials who went to college for this subject because they don't want to deal with millenial BS.

>>135371517
Gonna need a lot more nerds to program the robots that will be replacing all the standard service and manual labor jobs, you know.

>>135374606
It's late and I'm getting over a stomach bug. Also, I'm completely serious, if he puts together a halfway decent resume and uploads it to monster he should start getting calls within days or a couple of weeks.

Honestly, this whole "let them eat code" thing pisses me off. Fucking polticians have no idea how complicated my field actually is. They think you can do the equivalent of making people doctors by giving them first aid training. The market being flooded with incompetents is a huge part of why so many projects fail.

>>135374295
>If you don't start with at least that; you're fucked.

This is total bullshit given how self perpetuating IT knowledge is. I met people who dropped out of highschool because they didn't need shit else when they learned how to code.

>>135375072
>The market being flooded with incompetents is a huge part of why so many projects fail.
Truth on so many levels.

I almost died of laughter when I found out our data storage service couldn't handle filenames with spaces in it.
I wish I could hunt down whoever wrote that piece of shit.

>>135373235

yeah the STEM numbers are pretty low in the USA, take all the high school students, 75% graduate, then of those, maybe 15% go into STEM, and of those maybe 50% eventually graduate, and of those how many are actually employed in the field after two years?

hence all the raj patels, 80% of coders in my company are chinese and indian, not counting the indian outsourced

>>135374721
You're retarded.
I am not going to enter a fucking field after giving 4 years of my life to a debt filled sewer only to lose it to some stupid mouth breathing code monkey that doesn't even know basic fucking ASM or what he is even doing.

If you want to, fine. Enjoy your failure.

>>135375013
except that isn't true. I work in Software, the vast majority of people in the industry have CS degrees.

And if you can pass a coding interview at these companies, clearly your lack of a degree is not holding you back

>>135375151
I'm sure they got acclimated to unemployment checks too.
>insert response about this one outlier you know that's totally raking in 900k and fucking models on instagram with only a 3rd grade education

>>135374660
>There's dumb people at my dad's business and no matter what he says they laze around while the smart people do whatever he says
That's because smart people know that in some ways it takes just as much effort to shirk your duties as it does to simply do the work. Smart people also have conceptions of things like "reciprocity." Or, that's what my smart mother told me, anyway.

>>135375293
why is everyone equating engineers to coders?

>>135375029
Every job I had tried the kanban shit very few got it right. This industry suffers from so many middle managers afraid to lose their jobs. I hate it. All of us should be able to work from home every day but as long as middle managers are a thing that will never happen. They always need to validate their jobs and if their employees work from home and get shit done this puts them in danger.

>>135375072
>They think you can do the equivalent of making people doctors by giving them first aid training.
So fucking true. All this girls & niggers can code shit is a joke

Twenty years old here, about to turn twenty-one. Going to finish my CS degree in about a year here, been doing small mostly security related jobs as a freelancer so far. What's one piece of advice you can offer to someone who wants to do security fot a living?

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>>135374176
Out of curiosity, what is a good metric? The first two projects I worked on at my job were using software and languages that I had never used before. I just learned what I needed to solve the problem before me, they were impressed and I have since moved up in the job, but nothing in the pre-interview would have shown that I could solve problems meaning they had to gamble in me. Trick interview questions like fizz buzz or sort algos are easily memorized, so how do measure a person's ability to solve problems independently?

It's not (((them))), it's literally because the free market DEMANDS programmers

literally every business needs some kind of computer tech, so the market creates CHEAP labor sources... ie free code camps

you're still not going to find good skilled software engineers from the inner city free coding initiative shitshows.... maybe some garbage tier webdevs

There is shortage and it will grow. Look around dumbass. Your welding / blacksmith / stone mason or whatever the shit you do skills are becoming unnecessary due to development of automatic control systems which implement mathematical algorithms that I, as an academic researcher with PhD, develop. So I need code monkey to do this. So learn programming or die.

>>135375260
>our data storage service couldn't handle filenames with spaces in it

LoL, I'm old enough I wouldn't even expect that.

>>135375553
>you're still not going to find good skilled software engineers from the inner city free coding initiative shitshows.... maybe some garbage tier webdevs
exactly

>>135375431
I don't have many types like that in my sector.
Middle management types are in trenches. They don't get any special consideration, outside of leadership positions to delegate work.

Then again, we also have a really liberal policy about working from home.

>>135375520
find a good rage outlet, like a very tough sport or slicing up hookers.

>>135375330

If companies cared about CS degrees they wouldn't be importing millions of pajeets with fake degrees from Designated University

>>135375339
If you're too stupid to figure out an income from programming, you were never smart enough to be a good programmer in the first place.

The more people that can program technology, the more technology can propagate. Even pajeet tier code monkeys are like a really stinky lubricant for the metatechnological machine.

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>>135375800
Sure Pajeet.

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On one of the projects i worked on, we were basically into production when a bug popped up. Our application was multi-threaded, at this point 10,000+ lines of code... and an error was popping up RANDOMLY. Like 5+ different errors, all out of nowhere.

After a week or so of debugging, I realized that someone new had come onto the project test team and started entering strings into a field, but hitting ENTER whenever they finished... instead of clicking OK

When you hit ENTER to start a new line, 2 things actually happen... a linebreak(new line) and a return character(return the cursor to the beginning of a line). That's because typewriters used to have 2 different keys for those actions. The ENTER(return) key does both at once. I only knew that from observation, and deduction, from years of experience...

It would literally take an inner-city codemonkey a year to finally figure that out, from pure dumb luck. You can't teach competence, you only gain that from experience and intelligence.

>>135375566
>There is shortage and it will grow. Look around dumbass. Your welding / blacksmith / stone mason or whatever the shit you do skills are becoming unnecessary due to development of automatic control systems which implement mathematical algorithms that I, as an academic researcher with PhD, develop. So I need code monkey to do this. So learn programming or die.
>I'm God!

>>135375790
Yes, there are companies dumb enough to try to cut corners with Indian """programmers"""". Not going to pretend that isn't true.

But those companies invariably suffer. There is a reason Yahoo fired every single one of their pajeet devs.

More so, that's not unique to CS. Literally happens in every industry.

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becasue fun to be owner while salves toil in coding cotton fields

yet slaves thnk they smart

>>135374721
I was doing AJAX before that meme term even existed and doing code reviews for fortune 500 pajeets before I even graduated high school and I can tell you that 'that cushy lifestyle' is bullshit to camouflage all the insufferable cunts who couldn't even check in their work to a dev server.
I said 'fuck this shit' and now I'm a farmer but the irony is, that I still work with pigs in shit. On the plus side, I get to slaughter them at will.

I can program pretty good. been at it for 15-20 years our so. but i don't like it all that much.

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>Company frequently losing track of its own assets because people still use physical logbooks and excel sheets
>Administration got in touch with an IT company to develop an inventory tracker to be deployed on the corporate intranet
>IT company asks $10k for it
>Our CEO thinks that is too costly and instead asks the IT department for alternatives
>They ask me to make it for them. Learned ruby on rails and deployed it within 2 months.
>Going to get $40 raise on my monthly salary next month
Being a shitty programmer in a company full of computer illiterate middle-aged to elderly hags who can't even archive their own Outlook emails is nice

>>135371517
The world is becoming increasingly based around technology and as a result the demand for coders increases? I dunno, is this a trick question?

>>135375330
I don't understand. Interviews are the easiest part

>>135371517
>programmer shortage
There is always a shortage of people roughly at the 120 IQ mark. Being a dev is not for everyone, most certainly not for niglets.

>>135374721
There's nothing "cush" about it, when you're in the competent 20% of the work force and have to clean up other people's messes. I know what he's talking about with that crack about "pseudo intellectuals". There are far too many people who over promise and under deliver because they think they are smart enough to figure something out, or who end up breaking things because they thought they were smarter than the guys who first wrote the system and could just change shit willy nilly.

>>135376054
>took him years to learn
>proceeds to talk shit about how it would also take other people years to learn

you're retarded

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>>135375526
A good metric is one that can't be gamed. There are some companies who would instead give you a challenging project to work on, and then ask you to answer question about it. It does take longer than a standard 45min whiteboard test but I would much rather work on a mini project, than put up with the meaningless grind of multiple on-site interviews

>>135376054
So truncate the string of special characters besides null, like newlines and anything in unicode that is a system control character.

>>135376739
Are you drunk?

All I'm saying is that if you hire inner city codemonkeys from one of these camps, you will not get that quality work you'd get from hiring real engineers who went to college.

1 week of debugging vs.a YEAR, just to save a few shekels? not worth it

>>135376451
Not sure if your memeing or not, but that's just not true. Companies like Google, FB, etc (Big N) have objectively difficult interviews. Sure, they'll be easy if you come from a competitive programming background or if you drill them for months, but for most people (CS degree or not), they're brutal.

Concepts like Dynamic Programming and ridiculously specific algorithms like Kadane are something most people have no idea about.

>>135376054
>>135376976
And I hope you further sanitize the string data so that crackers and hackers can't inject malicious code, or screw with you in other ways.

>>135375431
>All of us should be able to work from home every day but as long as middle managers are a thing that will never happen.

As a beginner, what I don't fucking get is why are you not doing that!? There are tons of freelance programmers out there that work from home and enjoy their jobs. Hell, there are programmers making tons of money from making their own shit. Also, isn't the purpose of programming to work with a big company? Why would you settle with anything less if you've got a respectable education?

>>135373981
>literally programming your replacement

>>135377306
obviously sanitation is important.... but it is not always obvious where that will be necessary and where it's redundant

which is yet ANOTHER reason to hire qualified software guys, not pajeets... pajeets can't comprehend those kinds of nuances

>>135377477
>>135375431
work from home is a meme. everyone who works from home eventually starts mailing in minimal effort. EVERYONE. no exceptions.

>i work from home

>>135374014
And medicine somehow changes over time?
Nay, it's been the same for past 2 million years.

>>135375318
>>135376166
>>135376667

Get a better programming job - there are lots of them out there. Try Silicon Valley.
Farming is respectable though - anything where you're your own boss.

>>135377477
Freelance programming isn't as lucrative as you are making it seem. You will be lucky to land a week long "gig" with unrealistic expectations over thousands of Pajeets who are willing to work for $1/hr

>>135377900
this is true

we contract offshore programmers all the time

it doesn't pay by hour. it pays by milestone. we'll basically give a weeks worth of work, and after you finish it, you've completed a "milestone" and we wire you $400

repeat that way for the entire project.

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>>135371517
the "shortage" is a meme pushed by silicon valley/amazon in order to import cheap labor.

in fact there's a glut of shitty developers, but few very good ones, so what the plan is now is to just automate the vast majority of big corp development in order to remove all employees completely so google and faceberg can fire half their employees. This is the current gold rush project all companies are pursuing, building massive libraries that can do everything and then finally a machine that will string them together to program itself.

the reason why governments push the 'learn to code' meme is because jobs are disappearing, and they are under the mistaken belief you can just go to an X week "code school" and magically get a well paying job. You can't, unless you are a tranny or something then can get a diversity pity hire to fill a quota. Even then the diversity hires are few and far between, plus the whole industry is in a bubble state of VCs being conned by idiots.

The ultimate red pill on SV is that it's 99.9% marketing and the remainder actual innovation. Everybody is conning a VC into giving them capital so they can slap junk together, then pull a slot machine handle and cash out quickly before the bubble pops.

The bubble is going pop, then the only developers people will want are those with verification experience, writing robust NASA type software. The test/debug "lean startup" "agile" "continuous integration" methology that produces absolute piles of buggy junk will die with the bubble.

>>135377623
Yeah I'm more motivated to do school work or actual work in a facilitating environment, not one that lets me fuck off if I want. I abhor homework for this reason.

>>135371517
Just to add, field IS getting bogged down with dumbasses.

Just an example:
I work with 10 other people in our department, we all got accepted as juniors (3 years ago).
I'm currently a medior getting increasingly responsible work and obligations (and salary increases along with it)- and I can tell you that 4 other people that got accepted when I was, are still just standing in place with both knowledge and salary.

When they talk about what they "know", you'd think they're geniuses. Once they start working, you realize they're just monkeys.

And I see this more and more every day. Ex-colleagues finishing college, knowing jack-shit, talking out of their ass getting jobs and bragging how they're "programmers" - until they need to show stuff.
It's when they fail.

>>135377623

I've worked from home fully remote for the last 5 years, and then is some truth to that. I'll go through periods of months where I produce fuck all from burnout.

I am looking forward to moving to an office position soon because the constant work from home sucks.

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>>135376667
if you're skilled 20% start a consulting agency where you clean up the spagetti code pajeets pump out, you're not a fixed cost on the balance sheet so they'll toss money at you. 4-5 guys owning it should be a decent split when you pump the numbers with a few temps then sell to some VC fuckheads

>>135371517
Tech anon here
Technical literacy is more important than ever. Every time I see a internet ad for "lightning fast 10Mb internet speeds" I want to shit my pants and mail it to the service provider

>>135371517
>hate white males
>white males being the only ones able to write proper software
they desperately try to find that 1 in 10 million nigger who can count to 5

>>135378132
Not bad leaf, not bad. You nailed it.

>>135373398
Because most of them didn't go to college

>>135378480
I'm probably the opposite. I understand theory well and can think up new ways to implement, but have little knowledge of current implementations or libraries available, so I'd rework the wheel a lot or have trouble coming up with proven solutions which I don't yet know about.

it's so basic. everybody just learn to code. if they wanted to help they would send them to trade schools for jobs that can't really get replaced.

>>135378498
Are you a white working from China because your boss sent you there or you want to live in a disgusting place? Or are you just a VPN fag (although having a VPN from within China and reaching the outside world is not something easy or worthwhile)?

>>135379310
our we can all pile up balls deep at the next goto line. kek

>PHP
I'd rather kill myself than develop/write anything in this garbage language.

>>135379295
This is good though, people like this usually thoroughly think about possible issues with implementations.
It's not good to reinvent the wheel, but more than once in our software's codebase - I've found a better way to do something and reimplemented it.
So your talent can prove helpful more than not.

>>135371517
Because the shift to near-complete automation is coming.

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>>135371517
Corporations want cheaper work.

What they fail to realize is that even if you teach a gorilla how to program, they'll almost never program anything good.

That's when the free market sweeps in with white, asian, a few mexican and poo-in-loos are actuallyl good, and they create their own companies or just contribute via FOSS and the other corps go bankrupt.

Basically, it's unsustainable and will fall through the roof.

Fun fact: Programming with knee socks boosts your affinity by 200%.

>>135379466

I am a white dude who came here for shits and giggles, and then stayed because I got married. Never worked for a Chinese company.

Cause it was a male dominated field, and as per social justice methodology, it must be diversified

>>135379705
Taiwan

>>135379544
I'm grateful I picked up what I did, and I had great professors, but I wasn't able to easily get hired out the door (partly because of my major), but after not getting into the industry for some years, and the fact I'm lazy as shit at home means I have nothing to show. I'm starting college again soon, but from one of these non-profit free tuition schools to get me into general computer science and not my previous specialization.

ah fuck it, lets all just play gta in our underwear.

>>135379705
People around here would call you a race traitor. Still, your case isn't unique. But you pretty much can't get citizenship in China unless you're well-known there or good in a scientific field. You should come back from where you came from.

>tfw youngest person in my company of +1k people
>tfw no degree
>tfw top 5% salary in Poland

feels good not being a brainlet.

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>>135373751
>>135374389
What a fucking code monkey.

Learn some more languages you giant faggot.

>>135380292
It's the opposite, the more you know but aren't competent with, the more you're just a monkey. It's the case when you know a lot but can't think with what you know.

>>135371854
/thread
they have made programming so easy and the frameworks so powerful that you dont need to actually know what youre doing in order to make shit. It started with bringing the Indians over who will work 80hrs a week for 45k and it will eventually move to the blacks and hispanics who will do it for 30k.

I have misfortune work dumb affirmative action hired ape that codes like shit (DA EROOR CODES MOENS WAT?) at least half his shit needs to be fixed or completely rewritten. Also in all my years, I never seen such messy formatting, shit everywhere and no noting. This fucking nigger has no fucking problem using race card and get all butthurt when you correct his garbage. A few times I considered quitting over his niggerary.

But also work along side with a few pajeets who code and format like human beings, but all they talk like their mouth is full of shit.

>>135380108

I'm not interested in citizenship, I can always move to hk if I want. Despite what we is posted about china here, if you are well off it is really nice.

No din dus, gated communities to keep the riff raff out, cheap as shit cost of living even when you buy imported food, women are easy.

>>135374176
what are you referring to anon? what are the trick questions they would ask? example ploise

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>>135380470
That just means you've never dived into the depths of any other programming language than the C family.

Learning different languages will allow you to understand C much better.

You'll learn once you start diving again and realize C# is fucking retarded, and C++ is a giant dildo monster. That C is the only good thing out of the C family.

Go learn other languages, grok them, and you'll really appreciate C, and you'll have new tricks to boot.

You'll also find that so many things are so badly programmed it's ridiculous.

>>135380651
Well at least you're avoiding the literal sewage tier food oils. Still, it must be a bitch when no one there has sympathy for you if you get hurt, and the inability to get ovens or cold drinks must suck. Do you even have access to a fridge either?

>>135374686
That's why all the good programmers turn to employing themselves. Why do hard and boring work for a measly pay when you can be your own boss and keep everything you make from your own work? Every programmer worth the title I personally know have gone entrepreneur.

>>135371517
They want more people to think like machines, thus lowering the resistance to eventual singularity once (((they))) propose it.

>>135380848

Good luck writing big free code in C when it's a project of any real size. Unless you work under the the standards set out by NASA or something like that, you are going to have some kind of memory bug.

>>135375520
never trust a Jew.

>>135380848
What do you think of Rust? Meme language or actually competent to use (despite the edgy literal commie dev)?

>>135380946

Don't really care about lack of sympathy, I care as much about them as they care about me. I can get cold drinks every where, and all the local restaurants just bring it as default now.

Have a fridge/freezer, have an oven, and pretty much any amenity i'd have at home.

>>135376739
jesus you must be a pedantic cunt.

>>135380696
A good example is if they ask you to write a fizzbuzz program, it's a test of whether you've been told about the modulo operator and nothing to do with your ability to write good code

>>135380848
Also I'm not the guy who said he only worked with C family. I mean, I have, but I've worked with Java and Lua as well. Java is something only pajeets can admire these days, and Lua is just a tack-on language that's useful but is basically just virtual tables of C pointers.

Stop jerking over languages, the most important part is getting a project finished, whether or not it's for a company or a side-project.

>>135381203
Well from videos I've seen of China those things are hard to get or unwanted. Convenience stores only store warm drinks because of superstition. Also, if you're going to restaurants, they'd better be managed by westerners, because otherwise you're still susceptible to sewage oils and other absurdities.

>>135373823
>he thinks programmers make 500k
You are so sheltered, you have no idea what it's like in the entire rest of the country do you? Where do you live, LA? Where your inflated fucking everything means you get to gloat about your big paychecks while you spend more on rent percentagewise than anywhere else in the entire world.

Programming in 9/10 cases will land you a secure starting salary with room to improve. Programmers who work for a bank (of course), a hospital (duh), or a fortune 500 company can get 100k starting, anywhere else and you're going to get about 60k. Decent, sure, but that pricetag gets lower the more programmers there are.

And you know how much (((they))) like a smaller pricetag.

>>135381298
Java is everyone's designated shitting language, what's so wrong with it? I'd like it explained because I never understood it (exclude answers about mainly pajeets coding it, that's a free market issue Matie)

Im 5 years deep in aerospace/defense test automation software. Pajeets are a problem in virtually every engineering discipline, software is a relatively discipline next to ME & EE . Hiring them is a way to cut corners but H1B Visas do expire and the Poos are always the first to go when funding is low. I resolved to work in an industry where if you want to advance you'll require some form of TS/SCI Clearence. It is excellent job security, and cuts Pajeets out of the equation entirely.

>>135371517
There will always be space for highly-paid Aryan programmers. It just means the days of the numale $js_framework """dev"""" getting paid six figures are coming to an end. Good.

The average code monkey doesn't even know how recursion works. That should tell you something. If you are well-grounded in theory you will be rewarded accordingly.

>>135381479
hmm...maybe in the rural areas. the cities are developed as fuck

>>135381596
>lacking reading comprehension
500k for a dozen is slightly over 40k per person, i.e. 12 Pajeets or interns.

>>135381203
Also, what city are you in? Shenzen doesn't have most of those niceties. Qingdao looks like a good town influenced by Germans and foreigners while still being mainland.

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>>135381035
If you aren't working in a sane standardized environment then you, and your employer are insane. Good luck accomplishing anything with C++'s fucked ABI.

>>135371517
they are not pushing for white kids to learn it
this makes all the difference and is all you need to know to deduce their motivations
they want to enable non whites while whites are struggling as a future security blanket

>>135381834
I saw it affect Shenzen as well, a first tier city.

Language fags are low-tier programmers.

I've never seen anything serious written in Haskell. All the useful software is written in C, C++ and Java.

You judge carpenters by what they build, not by their toolbox.

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>>135381084
In some ways it's great, in others it's insane.
Learn it, choose for yourself.

>>135381298
Yeah, Java is shit. Scala is a better alternative.

>>135381795
It's garbage collected, the syntax isn't sane, the library is fucked, and everyone who writes in it is retarded.

>>135381795
Not too sure about the hate for Java, as there are neat languages based on its JVM, but it still is controlled by a company who doesn't know how to monetize it well and it's always getting security updates, and mobile has completely shunned it.

>>135381479
>>135381834


What that guy said, I live in a city, everything is developed here, restaurants in nicer areas don't fuck with gutter oil because they see those that do as subhuman.

The middle class and above hate that 3rd world shit too. The city police are always getting better at pushing those kind of people out of sight.

>>135382209
It must not be Shenzen, then.

>>135381795

Nothing wrong with Java.

It's a language to do real work with, so it's associated with unpleasant stuff about the real world you would not encounter when writing fizzbuzz in Turbo Scala.

>>135382126
i fucking hate java so much
yeah it's easy but the skill ceiling is below my knees.

>>135380848
I absolutely hate python, but i use it every day at work. It helps me understand the shortcuts and horrific style that people will use to "avoid re-inventing the wheel".
I can spend very little time and effort on the dumb projects that dont matter, and then do the real programming in C.

>>135380696
One I have seen quite often is adding two numbers stored in linked lists, where each digit is a node. You are then supposed to return the sum as a linked list.

For instance:
1->3->5->8
2->3->3

should return the list 1->5->9->1

>>135381917

I've lived in several, Wuhan, Chengdu, Guangzhou.

Wuhan is much closer to the china posted on here.

Chengdu is very chilled, great place to semi-retire in tech if you got a decent payout.

Guangzhou is pretty awesome, extremely well developed, great selection of food from foreigners and Chinese, plenty of things to do, and decent jobs.

From my time in Shenzhen, I'd say it is much shittier compared to Gz because it is all migrants there. It is a migrant town, so there was no significant local population to shame them into place.

>>135382126
Yeah I don't like the syntax for Java either, but its garbage collector made it better at performance over C++ in many aspects. I credit the JVM over Java though. And you could still write a garbage collector for C++ and get similar performance.

working trades in the U.K. Can make a shit ton of cash. I done a programming degree but went back to working as electrician

>>135380848
C is for fedora-tipping faggots that think they're edgy because they know they're using an outdated language.

>>135371517
After graduation from local university with major in physics I realised how fucked I am with salary of 150$ in government-funded institution. In a few months I learned all things I needed to get an enty level job (C++). Now I am working in outsource company writing software for some complex medical visualization device for rich americans. Just imagine that this responsibility is outsourced to the guy who graduated last year in third-world country thousands of miles from USA. It can kill you or hurt your health if I make a bug.

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>>135382546
>its garbage collector made it better at performance over C++ in many aspects
...PFFTTHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

Wait, you're serious, aren't you?

>>135382628
>C
>outdated

Oh, time to continue.
...PFFTTHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

>>135382628
It's still good, just dated. Rust is what you should probably use (probably).

>>135382546
>>its garbage collector made it better at performance over C++ in many aspects

Kill yourself

>>135376322
Could've just installed one of the free FOSS inventory trackers then. Your managers are dumb as shit.

>>135382832
It's what my professor said, anyways. Maybe when C++ was still developing.

>>135379295
This is where google comes in. Just google what you want yo do and usually you'll find the framework or whatever you need.

>>135382957
>>Maybe when C++ was still developing
C++ is much older than Java

>>135382957
Then you probably misheard. Running code in a VM makes it run slower than running it on bare metal. It's just simple logic.

The reason why Java is "better", is because it doesn't let you shoot in the foot like C/C++ does. Although these days C++ standard devs has been doing some good work in modernising the language.

>>135372251
>infested by pseudo intellectual dumbasses
this.
The fundamental problem with the 'IT industry' is that the ones sitting on the risk capital and decisions are usually economists or other uneducated scum who are absolutely clueless about technology. As that kind are too incompetent to tell the wheat from the chaff regarding ideas and ppl, they just go for the ones with the most well oiled mouth which isn't necessarily the ones with the actual best ideas or skills. The result is a world of idiots who can talk but not do the walk. This is the reason for the IT crash 15 years ago. And also the reason for all those failed IT systems you see everywhere. But just kick out those economist dickheads from the decision process and replace them with proper engineers with a nose for what could work and what would never, and you change the ball game.

>>135383174
Yeah I know but even now it's still developing/evolving. He told me that the garbage collection was bad until they ironed it out. Not sure.

>>135371517
Easy money. I've been writing code since I was 8 leave me alone

All this programming snobbery is a meme in itself, the people complaining about "incompetents" are often crusty autists who can't work in a team and base their identity on obscure programming knowledge. The sheer amount of time wasted by these people is staggering. They have no competitive or social outlet in their lives so they end up taking it out on their colleagues, performing the same autistic dominance dance that /thatguys/ do.

They will never move into a leadership role and will have to be content peaking at the senior developer position because everyone hates them.

>>135383174
C++ made a huge progress since 2011. It is almost different language in comparison to the standard of 1998 year.

>>135381944
E N T E R P R I S E Q U A L I T Y

I miss /prog/ :(

>>135383220
No I understand the difference between compiled languages and interpreted ones, but garbage collection and JIT or precompilation were supposed to dent compiled languages.

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>>135383396
>>>/g/dpt

>>135371517
I have seen a lot of this too..who is funding it exactly

>>135380108
only stormfags

>>135383281
Of course it is evolving. But at no point was performance between Java and C++ even comparable

>>135383351
Could it be that knowing more about a subject that someone else, even if it's obscure makes you more knowledgeable at something which in a field that revolves around knowledge directly means being `better`?

But you're right in a sense that people who are actually good usually earn good money by fixing that shit instead of wasting their time complaining about how broken shit is.

>>135383668
Well maybe my professor was a dolt, but he seemed very knowledgeable and worked in the industry on lots of projects.

>>135382832

You have better locality with good GCs.

>>135383561
Their memes aren't nearly as good, but better than nothing I guess.

>>135371517
Because it's easy to learn and dirt cheap to teach.

They're targeting people who are not in college because it's unacceptable that people can get a job without going into some kind of training and education debt. This is the new economy that profits off of the economy.

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>>135378132
Pretty much this.

>>135383834
Yup.

>>135383220

Modern JVM is just-in-time compilation to native code, with profile guided optimization (HotSpot).

Most of the niggers commenting in this thread are clueless.

>>135383258
>The fundamental problem with the 'IT industry' is that the ones sitting on the risk capital and decisions are usually economists or other uneducated scum who are absolutely clueless about technology
Thats.... true of any industry. The guys at the top aren't going to be technical wizards, they're going to be managers.

>>135383820
And isn't the JVM Garbage Collector good? Otherwise derivative languages wouldn't be good.

>>135371517
They need to get darkie up to speed so whitey can finally be wiped out.

>>135375399
>why is everyone equating engineers to coders?
The damn "software engineer" meme that clueless fucks keep pushing. Same idiots that call mechanics "automotive engineers". It's pathetic.

>>135384000

Yes it is. The Oracle JVM is excellent.

>>135384173
So is this still inaccurate? >>135382546

>>135383820
You can have great locality with C/C++ with smart design. Add to that the ability to use vectorization, and Java with all it's fancy just in time compilation will be embarrassed. Let's not kid ourselves

Having said that. Of course writing a piece of code in C/C++ won't automatically make it faster than the rest. Just like any other tool C++ needs to be used properly

I'm trash and i need to develop a website like tomorrow. What would you recommend? Is Meteor.js okay? Please don't hurt me too bad

>>135384344
Yeah, with nonstandard libraries C/C++ can mimic the features of interpreted languages, as those interpreted languages were written in compiled languages like C/C++

>>135382084

Pretty much this. All language debates on the internet devolve into muh hipster language vs muh C, with both sides full of larpers/students/neets who haven't worked on a large scale project before.

All the things that make your super special language cool are unmaintainable when you have upwards of half a million lines of code. Try reading someone else's Lisp code for example. By contrast, all the things that languages like Java/C++ get shit for (eg boilerplate, primitives, inheritance) greatly improve code readability due to their verbosity and predictability.

>>135380499
>niggers
>jobs

>>135384344
>>135384518
Bit the point is that under standard libraries the languages contend with each other for statistics, otherwise only one type would be used.

If they can code, then they can borrow Chinese CPU power to mine crypto with. Then they can feed themselves. Everybody who matters wins.

because it makes you a soulless dork incapable of breeding. enjoy your faggy gadgets while tyrone dumps gallons of jizz down your crush's yearning throat, you stupid beta cuck.

>>135383983
>true of any industry
There is more to it than that though. What is special about software engineering is that you wouldn't normally bother to reinvent the wheel. There wouldn't be any money in designing something that already exist. There is also not a production phase as in other fields of engineering to cash in on. 'Production' of software is just making copies of it.
>friend of mine is a mechanical engineer
>spent ten years designing huge belt conveyor systems for mines and such
>every 'new' belt conveyor was the same old shit, just new parameters
Boring living for an engineer, but predictable when it comes to estimating development costs for the ear wax accountants.
When starting a (potentially profitable) software project, you can't tell how much work there will be, or if it's even possible to achieve the goal -- because noone has ever done it before.

>>135371517
>Explain to me why (((they))) want so many people to start learning how to code?
Obama pushed for it at one point IIRC.

>What's in it for them? Is there really a programmer shortage or is this just some meme?
Generally when politicians talk about labor shortage, they're not saying "there's 500000 jobs unfilled", they're saying "500000 more programmers would drive the wages down to a more comfortable level." Any common job with decent pay is a "labor shortage."

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>>135371517
(((They))) also want (((us))) to learn programming. It's not a scheme this time, it's actually useful.

>>135384648
>All language debates on the internet devolve into muh hipster language vs muh C, with both sides full of larpers/students/neets who haven't worked on a large scale project before.

I think part of that problem is because there are such a large amount of languages now that its almost impossible to have an informed objective opinion on each. It just devolves to herpderp the language I learned is better than the language that I haven't learned because of X Y Z (half of which I don't understand but my professor told me so)

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>>135384903
> the comment
> the flag

>>135384000

Java's gc is good, brainlets don't realize how sophisticated it's become. In general, it splits objects into young, medium, and old generations, performing most gc passes on the young and medium generations. This is because statistically, any object that survives multiple gc's are most likely going to be used for the lifetime of the program.

If you know exactly what resources are going to be used when, then yes, you can write something that's more efficient than the jvm gc. But in the general case if you can out optimize the jvm gc, then you should probably publish your idea and get a phd.

>>135381867
Pajeets regularly make 10k in poo in loo land, the only problem is they are shit at writing code

>>135371517
Python is fucking retarded, C#/Java is where its at

Java gets a bad rap because its the language of choice for code monkeys, which happen to be poos 8/10 times because they're too dumb to be intuitive and design something themselves, they need somebody to guide them and give them orders

>>135385490
How's python for Web Development aside from server-side apps?

>>135380696

I was asked "Suppose that you are standing in a hallway next to 3 light switches, which are all off. There is another room down the hallway, where there are 3 incandescent light bulbs – each light bulb is operated by one of the switches in the hallway. Because the light bulbs are in another room, you can not see them since you are standing in the hallway.

How would you figure out which switch operates which light bulb, if you can only go the room with the light bulbs one time, and only one time?"

A very strange interview

>>135385490

Not a pythonfag, but even I have to admit that python is really good for data manipulation. Try writing a java program that traverses an n x n x n matrix and applies an equation to each element. Java 8 makes it a little easier with lambdas, but for the most part, you'd have to write large blocks within nested loops. In python, however, you can just vectorize it and be done with it.

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>>135384784

>>135373008
Depends on the doc

I shadowed a specialist who told me about a neurosurgeon he knew who billed out over $50 million in a single year

>>135385847

I've heard that one and the answer is retarded. You have to feel the temperature of the bulb. Muh lateral thinking.

>>135371854

The problem with this is that most people can't program. It actually requires a certain type of person to be able to do it. Google "why can't programmers program" and how Indian engineers can't engineer anything. They just have a useless piece of paper and no actual skill in their field. They literally fail basic tasks.

>>135385857
>>135385490
Wtf, Python is the smoothest language I've ever dealt with.

And like the anon said, it's great for data. I still use R when I feel like it, but like pandas/numpy/scikit etc have made it unnecessary

>>135385985
CS programs barely teach you to actually write code, it's basically a math degree with meme tier tech concepts

>>135385965
So you turn on two of the light bulbs on, and turn one off after some time, then leave the last one on?

>>135386197

Pretty much yeah. Turn on two long enough to heat up, turn off one of the two and walk into the room. The one that's off and warm is the one you turned off. The rest you can deduce.

>>135385650
Python is one of my languages. It's general purpose, not a web dev language. But now there's Django and Flask to link up Python with the web.

Personally? Wh go that route (the Django and Flask route) when PHP does such a great job with server side stuff? Flask and Django may get better with tie, but for now it's PHP for that, with JavaScript's MEAN stack running second place (which is really now going with NERDS (RDB stuff tied to JS ((MyChoice)) ) ).

>>135386197
I don't see how that helps CS unless you have hardware that detects the length of time a bit has been activated. And I guess it applies to non-cache or non-ram.

>>135385847
Leave your phone in the room with Periscope broadcasting, monitor each light switch effect with a laptop

Mirrion dorra preez

>>135386353

You're overanalyzing it. It's just a logic/lateral thinking problem. It's similar to the Google interview question, "What if you were shrunk to the size of a nickel and thrown into a blender?" It's more to test how you think, not necessarily to come up with a correct answer.

>>135385650
Its meant for web development

I was talking about functionality though

>>135386460
In terms of CS that still wouldn't be a good solution because of latency reasons. Imagine doing the experiment, but you can run to the room at the speed of light and aren't limited by the amount of times you can enter the room with the light bulbs.

>>135371517
>Explain to me why (((they))) want so many people to start learning how to code?
Like most of what /pol/ considers a jooos thing, it's not da jooos.

Programming is simply the most instantly recognisable and is perceived to be the most important technical discipline. By pledging to teach kids to code you can pretend that you're taking the threat of job loss seriously and gearing kids up for the future. You of course can't, what kids learn is cute but in no way useful and programming is one of three interwoven disciplines that all need the others to work.

>>135372251
I was the same way. Started going to college for computer science and realized it was a marxist propaganda pushing shithole and now I'm becoming an electrician.

>>135386657
Huh?

Just record the periscope, follow a set pattern of light switch conditions, like left to right. Latency won't be an issue.

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My advice is to marry your programming ability to something highly technical - that's where the money is.

If you have a physics degree or a maths degree or similar, you're already ahead of the curve here because although Pajeet might be able to do the basics, do you honestly think he can model something like stochastic processes or whatever?

Find a niche: the more difficult the better.

>>135385857
Yeah, Python (2.7 still, not 3.6) is what the Data Science guys use. I'm dabbling with data science, but really spread too thin right now, will later.
Anyway, yeah, Python 2.7 (that's why Eclipse is still keeping all that 2.7 compatibility) or go the 'R' route. Might as well stay w python. Me? I want to use python w robotics or ai programming. Learning python now, but want to develop my Angular/JS/PHP/jQuery/MySQL/HTML5/CSS3 knowledge. all this on top of Adobe CC.

my over-clocked head needs heat sinks and dry ice cooling. this lifestyle is mental Top Fuel drag racing.

>>135386192
this
unless you specifically go to a Uni with a good CS program

>>135386690

Actually this. It's virtue signalling, like everything else in education. We need more:
>muh women
>muh minorities
>muh polygenders

in {{popular field}}, despite what their preferences might be. Because humans are obviously blank slate to be molded by educational institutions and there's no genetic component to behavior whatsoever.

>>135386557
>lateral thinking
something about that reeks of (((them)))

cor blimey goy, you haven't synergised very well in the think tank, i guess you just arent agile enough to laterally think your way out of the problem

>>135386823
Why 2.7?

I've been using 3.x and haven't run into any roadblocks yet with the frameworks I mentioned

>>135385857
I was talking about functionality, scalability and platform independence though f am

Python is like a notepad note while Java is your fancy Word document (harder and more time consuming to make but the result will be far better)

>>135371517

If the West has to keep outsourcing their coders, because of talent... they'll be open to corporate sabotage and espionage through code.

>>135374721
Dumb fuck detected.

>>135386798
f*cking Indians are constantly, CONSTANTLY trying to steal business on the web. They know every trick. I've delinked every indian on Linked In, I no longer will answer any emails or do side biz w them. They are snakes.

American Programmers are number one, we actually create things. Indians just copy. Many are Wordpress/Drupal/Joomla click monkeys, -that is not coding.

I code and I will say loudly and clearly, white males are the leading coders. It's reality. It's what is.

>>135386798
Depends. I see jobs for like bioinformatics/research software stuff and it's pitifully low, like sub $80k when you could make $120k just doing some Javascript web dev stuff

>>135386192
Bullshit.
CS degree > tutorials you will fin on the web

You actually learn to read scientific papers and you learn to engineer not like the code monkeys

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZLXKt4L-AA

>>135386882

It's really dumb. Truly creative people cannot be quantified by some test because the definition of creativity is someone who thinks outside the bounds of known/traditional thought. A person who can come up with clever answers to clever questions can still be worth fuck all when it comes to a real world problem.

Still, some metrics are better than none and I see interview questions the same way I see IQ tests-- terrible at finding geniuses, great at weeding out dumbasses.

>>135386957
Python 2.7 is just some big release everything is tooled for. Go to the MS Data Science courses, it's 2.7 they require. Eclipse, -it's 2.7.
I don't know, but everything is still retaining support for 2.7 even though we're on 3.6.1

>>135387129
Depends on the program. I transitioned from a hard science, and meet a lot of grads who don't know anything despite it being a really hard program.

But they know a lot more about computers, architecture, algos and stuff.

Shocked at how many don't have a portfolio outside of like homework, really telling how little interest a lot of students have in programming

> Is there really a programmer shortage or is this just some meme?

You have no idea. I work on EU side but I'm pretty sure Us has same problem. Last time I was in Oracle dude was saying there is lack of 4 million skilled programmers in eu only and this number is growing rapidly, by their eatimations it will be close to 10 mil by 2020.

It's not that there's lack of programmers but there's extreme shortage of actual skilled workers and not "I know HTML what now" kids.

>>135386192
burger, the reason code monkeys suck shit is because that have no logic or math skills. the best programmers and software engineers have math degrees.

>>135380499
Thats the problem
You have monkeys pressing keys on the keyboard and know nothing about how a compiler works, eventhough the framework handles everything. "Noone" knows how and why it works this way. Thats the reason guys developing in linux have better skills than the average windows/(((ios))) faggots

>>135387277
Programming Implementation is bullshit.
It eats your brain but obviously nobody in the business will tell you that.
They all tell you it's awesome and shite, that it's art.

BULLSHIT

The real value is in the research of best solution for problem not in the implementation

>>135386971
See, I started out in Java some time ago, jumped over to PHP, forgot all my Java, it wasn't the best experience to learn.
Then saw some Python code, went, 'dang that is easy to learn, just learned more and more. Now halfway througha certification. what i'll do w it, whatever who knows, but it's a great language. indenting + simplicity = clear to read.

>>135387337
Rarely do I see code that requires actual math though. It's just plug and chug.

90%+ of the jobs are pretty dull things that never approach research level thinking.

And those that do don't pay as well as Flashy Startup X

>>135386798
this guy gets it
see>>135387337

>>135371517
No programmer shortage at all but the more there are the lower the wages, the worse the working conditions.

>>135386971
Python is not a simple little 'baby' language. AI, robotics, gaming, huge websites use it.

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>>135387457
You don't know shit nigger.
http://www.bioinf.jku.at/publications/older/2604.pdf

>>135387120
But wherever there's a wage bubble it'll collapse with more takers that realize it's there for the taking. At least with a PhD in a hard science, along with computer programming experience, you're harder to replace with less people able or willing to do your job.

>>135387020
coder here agrees.with.(this);

>>135371517
>What's in it for them?
Salaries dumbass. You know people at non-profits still get paid right?

>>135386798

Eh, it's kind of dodgy that strategy. When it comes to something like data science or quant, you have to come from one of the top 8 schools to be worth a damn. Unless you want to do something like sentiment analysis or regressions for the rest of your life, the real top paying jobs in statistically heavy fields are only afforded to people who can come up with unique solutions to novel problems. They're like economists, no one is going to pay for an economist from a non-top tier university.

Of the data scientists I've seen, a lot of them have phds in related fields. Some of them are physicists who didn't become professors, for example. Unless you're at that level, it's not really worth it. The rest are glorified data visualizers.

>>135372251
Blue collar jobs are blue collar since you don't need time nor talent to learn the skill. You can be replaced by anyone.

About coders surge.
Learning a language is one thing and it's easy. Designing and developing something that's passable is different story.

Anaglogy is the difference between bricklayer and architect/civil engineer.

>>135387557
So model the variables and plug and chug, doing that by hand is hard and time consuming, doing it with a computer is easy as fuck

Go to bed frog.

>>135386323
>when PHP does such a great job with server side stuff
AHHAHAHHAHHHHAHAHHAH
>inhales
HAHAHHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAAAAAAHA

>>135387120
Anything bio is shit. take it from me, 10yrs biotech, waste of time.

>>135387457
that's why they use the shitskin HB1s in the US to save money on the plug and chug

however, the real R&D requires analytical thinking and logic which people with exceptional math skill are loaded with

this is what separates a cod monkey making 50k with an actual developer or algo writer make 100+k

>>135387629
you really are a nigger mon dieu

>>135387690
Agreed, I started in neuro research but left when I realized I was making far less writing research level software than friends who barely did anything complicated while making six figures

>>135387710
R&D is a sliver of a subset of the tech economy though, be realistic. 90+% of software "engineers" will never need that skill set, and really wouldn't help them write fucking apps and web tools

>>135371517
Teach everyone to code and you'll hopefully be able to catch the 1 in 200 or 1 in 1000 people who have a talent for it.

It's worth it even if most people never make anything more than a for loop or a basic object

>>135387629
see >>135387710
and >>135387741
actually know whats up
(you) >>135387629
are obviously a low tier code monkey doing the shit others don't' waste their time on

>>135371517
We're going through a new revolution, a quiet one at that or at least the normies haven't noticed. Manual labour has been phased out for a long time and we now need to make sure the new workers can actually work. Everything is going digital if it hasn't already. When robots replace basic stuff we'll have more unemployed. If you're not retarded you'll learn skills that are needed.

>>135371517
programming is almost pure logic, which is dominated by whites

jews want to try and dilute the field with shitskins while also creating comfy makework jobs for (((their own)))

frankly, would you rather work min wage at walmart, or make 50k a year babysitting some niglets while they do codeacademy

>>135387437
I disagree, research 'uses and looses' it's young talent. tosses em' away. I've seen whole R&D dept's get canned all in one day, -while the production guys all stayed.

Programming is good, but it's a top fuel drag race. It'll drain the weak, they should stay away.

>>135371517
Python is a language so easy, even a nigger can understand it. Well, except at that one temp job where the techs were all niggers and I coded a little something and they thought I was God.

>>135373402
Bad ones are yes, good programmers (developers really) are very rare and cost a lot.

>>135387629

That isn't how it works dumbass. If you don't understand what you're doing, your neural network can either:
> never converge
> overfit
> underfit

Saying you can plug and chug variables is like telling a formula one driver he just needs to steer.

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>>135383258
Rule #1 of successfull IT company
Never put a hard skill employee in front of your client or your decision making process, since the REEEEEE is too strong in them

>>135388015
Sure, but at the end of the day it's a formula. It's not hard to model with a computer.

>>135382546
Java pajeet spoted

>>135387457
The math is already done and in accessible libraries. Coding is logic and clear thinking. Coding, at least OOP, is building with building blocks, assembling them into a robust framework.

>>135372251
Ten years and you'll be out of a job. Programmers have job security indefinitely.

>>135387958

What a retarded post. Mnufacturing has been partially automated, but its not like 70% of jobs will be coding in the future

>>135388125
welding is more secure than programming tho

>>135374045
This. You need to know a lot more than programming to be a good team playing dev. Knowing when to use certain architecture patterns, frameworks and making easy to read maintainable and testable projects are the most important.

>>135387892
>>135387710
I live in a tech hub, code monkeys make $100k+, I don't do anything scientifically rigorous, but neither does anyone else where I work

Startups yo

>>135388110
Exactly, the hard part is done for you, all you have to do is direct traffic properly

>>135388187
We don't all live in the US where you can tech bubble all you want and the gov will bail you out anyway.

>>135388127
I didn't say it would you silly cunt. It's not just automation it's the fact we're heavily globalised. We're a service sector nation and technology is a big part of it.

>>135388155
No it isn't. Welding can be automated. Anything in the physical world can. Since there are trillions of dollars to be made from automating it, it will definitely happen sooner rather than later.

>>135388179

Actually this. Design patterns are underrated and take some experience to really appreciate. You have to wade through millions of lines of shit to really appreciate clean code.

What do programmers even do on their job? Always working on new projects?

>>135388277
you know nothing about welding then, or frankly any trade

automation only works in controlled environments with repeatable actions, which real life tradework never ever ever has

>>135388155

Welding will go the way of the machinist broman brolanski. Save a few specialized fields like underwater welding, most can be replaced by welding equivalent of cad once labor costs rise too much.

>>135388340
Meetings

Agile some stories

Meetings

Lunch

Design

Code

Go home

>>135387968
wasn't sure your codeacademy comment was +/-
but I know have a changed opinion on them. They really rip off a lot of aspiring coders w false promises, most of these coders could learn just as well out of a book or online, or tutors.

Personally? If I had a kid that wanted to learn coding, would send to an academy, would pay a tutor $75 bucks an hour three times a week. THAT, is the way, nobody thinks of it but the rich private school parents.

>>135388125

Why will he be out of a job in 10 years, and why do you think you programmers have job security

>>135388287
I agree m8 we've hired so many contractors who charge the earth and they're just shit. Finding someone who cares about others who will pick up the project seems so rare.

I'd guess automated tests are the largest lacking part of all projects. Software dev has been going on for about 17 years in the organisation I work and we've only just started using unit and integration tests, mainly because I actually want to improve.

>>135388424
welding is not manufacturing tho

it's far more akin to construction


good luck making a 20 story 3d printer tho

>>135388384
It used to be the case but our university in Frqnce created robots that learn from workers by imitation of their adaptative movements.

>>135377623
>work from home is a meme. everyone who works from home eventually starts mailing in minimal effort. EVERYONE. no exceptions.
I've been working from home for about 1.5 years so far, and my experience has been that I do good work when I feel that by proving myself, I can get some kind of advancement such as a raise, and I mail in minimal effort when I feel like it doesn't matter.

>>135388384
You know nothing about automation. I program for a living. Like I said, there is a profit to be made there, which means that it WILL happen.

>>135388340

Meetings, fix bugs, gather requirements, design new features, and occasionally write code. More time is spent analyzing and understanding the problem than writing code to solve the problem.

>>135388470
Yeah this is what scares me, ANYONE can learn to be a productive programmer. Not EVERYONE can be the best of the best, but again, most jobs don't require that.

Long-term salaries are going to plummet for the average software engineer

>>135388425
don't forget working on horrendous legacy systems some mong years ago shat out

>anon this project needs changing for the users
>open up vb.net webforms project created 10 years ago
>one giant function thousands of lines long and no comments
>wake me up