/classical/

Mahler? I hardly know her!

>tfw Beethoven actually wrote those late sonatas

I feel like giving up on composition

Netrebko is transcending the meme
https://imperialporzellan.at/annanetrebko/en/

zxc

What piece makes you feel like an inferior untermensch the most? Which performer does?

>>69640264

Beethoven's late sonatas and string quartet, Haydin late sonatas and almost everything by Bach, especially WTC and AoF.

These are the works that make me feel like a complete retard every time I listen to them. Pure genius,

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3 > 5 > 9 > 7

>>69641101

9=7>8>5>3>6

How should I approach getting into classical? It's all I really listen to now and all I do is thumb up and down songs on Spotify's classical radio.

>>69640264
Liszt's sonata.

>>69641225
Well if you're listening to Classical then you're already in to classical. All I can say is try to find more pieces from composers you like.

>>69641225
>if you don't enjoy a piece it's likely 2deep4u at the moment, relisten it a couple of times (not too much, of course, you don't want to get sick of it)
>if that doesn't work, find a different recording and try again
>read about the forms and periods

>all I do is thumb up and down songs on Spotify's classical radio.
This sounds like a horrible idea.

>>69638657
but they were his late sonatas, he wrote a lot before them

Are the performers on the general folder good?

I listen exclusively to classical music for some years now, and I really enjoy it and can't find any satisfaction in popular music anymore, I must admit. And of course classical music is much better. But something died with my enjoyment of popular music, some innocence is gone now, it's like I had to trade something to get into classical.

>>69641314
Why is it a horrible idea? I really only thumb down movie tracks, and even then I rarely even bother. I mainly just like the things I like and spotimeme says it will improve the station to show me more things I like.

>>69641409
In my opinion classical is the most genuine format of music. People don't make classical to make money really, they make it cause they love it. Most popular music just isn't like that anymore.

>>69641373

With most composer I always have the impression that I can catch on them, but not with Beethoven. Whenever I listen to his 32th sonata I always think that I could never come up with such excellence and art.

>>69641771

>listen to the diabelli variations once
>immediatly understand that I'm not one of those gifted human beings

I feel you

>>69641771
that's why he's so famous I guess. But I think Beethoven developed his piano sonatas by improvising and adding parts to it over a long time before starting to write it down, so he couldn't forsee the outcoming either. It's something that grows slowly. It's the fault of many composers to write things on paper to early, because they don't trust their memory. Beethoven adressed this point numerous times.

>>69641876
>Beethoven adressed this point numerous times.
Sounds interesting, anywhere I can read more of this?

>>69641172
>8
Shit taste.

>>69642003
I don't know the source, but I read once how he developed ideas while improvising and then mostly turned them over in his mind for months until they became useful often in a whole different context than he thaught at first. He said that he has complete trust in his memory in this point. When I started composing I always struggled because I wrote stuff down too early, making composing no fun. I had to force myself really hard to trust my memory, in the end it turned out that I didn't forget anything that was good, even when I came back to it weaks later. Now I write pieces down when they are completely done, which makes composing much more fun.

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Is there any passage of classical music as eerie as this? (Starts at 3:37)

https://youtu.be/UeSVu1zbF94

It's even more eerie considering the context, Messiaen wrote this in a fucking concentration camp

>>69642232
Messiaen remains the only composer I've so far encountered who I just can't "get".

>>69642232
is that matt damon

>>>>69642059


Beethoven took note of every single one of his musical ideas, and his late compositions are anything but improvisational.

Notice also that at this point he was stone deaf and apparently he had lost his virtuoso technique (he had no control anymore over the dynamics), and he composed almost none of his late music on piano.

His late compositions are actually extremely carefully planned (you have literally hundred of pages with unused musical ideas for his Sonata 31), and the musicality was tested by Czerny, who proofreaded all of his material.

Almost nothing is improvised, and everything is structural.

>>69642289
the outcoming isn't improvisional, but the process is. When he became deaf he improvised in his mind until it came out to his satisfaction. That's why every single note is completely in his personal stile. It was Beethoven who brought this approach to composition to perfection, Mozart and his contemporaries had a completely different apprpoach.

>>69642003
Reading through his original scores you'll notice how often he simply crossed out passages, added new ideas etc.
For reference :
http://imslp.nl/imglnks/usimg/1/1c/IMSLP396224-PMLP01488--Mus.ms.autogr._Beethoven__L._v.__Artaria_196-_Sonata_Op.110_03.pdf
He often used to drink when he composed which is why some of his scores are covered in wine stains.
Also fuck me, his writing was bad.

I think Also sprach Zarathustra is one of the best compositions I've ever heard...recommendations for stuff in a similar vein?

>>69642582
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doJxtcGzMZQ

>>69642582
The rest of Strauss' tone poems are good. Don Juan, Ein Heldenleben, Till Eulenspiegel and An Alpine Symphony are a good starting point

>>69641771
Just listen to Wellington's Victory a bunch of times to feel better about yourself.

>>69638056
Is Debussy's Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun in the mega?

>>69643397
Even Beethoven's biggest blunder is still much better than what I can come up with ;_;

And don't get me started on child prodigies.

>>69644111

To be fair Beethoven got really good at composing in his 30s-40s. You can still put as many hours into it as he in your 50s.

f

p

What type of classical music do you think these people enjoy?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lx3aGhBEIM0

>>69646087
Music from Russia

>>69641101
>5 that high

this is the worst general on /mu/

Is there any classical music that sounds like miltiary marches?

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Critique my canon bois: https://clyp.it/50gohou4

>>69647783

no u

How do you guys compose?
I can make music in front of the piano or in my head, but when I have to write it I'm uncapable of accurately writing the rhythm correctly, i always end up with a more robotic version of what I have in mind.

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My musical progression went from hip-hop to hip-hop instrumentals to trip-hop, jazz, and now classical. Nothing beats getting super high and listening to this guy.

>>69638056
>dedicating a thread to Mauluh

>>69647898
videogame music/10

>>69647817

Dance of the Knights has a kind of military-ish part.

>>69642250
Wait, you regard Messaien as more intractable than Schoenberg or Webern? Hell, fucking Stockhausen?

>>69648454
All canons sound like videogame music

>>69648546
I love Schoenberg and Webern. And I can generally understand what Stockhausen is going for when I listen to his music, even if I don't make a habit of listening to it especially often. But Messiaen just confuses me for some reason.

>>69642250
this. to be fair i only listened to his organ works and every single one is godawful

Was Igor Stravinsky the linkin park of his time?

>>69648615
No, that was Schoenberg, Stravinsky was the Aqua of his time

>>69648571
Just think of a Vaporwave dystopia where you're plugged into meditative VR with birds chirping and a babling brook but somehow it all just feels artificial and incomplete. Works for me.

>>69647898
sounds like shit

>>69649065
also nice meme bro ;)

Jazz is the true successor to romanticism.

>>69649082
jazz is the true successor to Negermusik

>>69649096
Negermusik beats judenmusik any day.

>>69649079
All of the day bro ;)

>>69649065
>>69649079
>>69649096
Make a Xenakis chart you lazy fucking dickhead

>>69649351
>implying cal knows anything apart from shitposting

You have to blow either Caccini, Monteverdi, or Gabrieli; who do you choose?

>>69648571
Messiaen has always felt much more accessible to me than Webern et al. For some reason I find it easy to visualize the harmonies as colors with him.

>>69648078
written notes are always gonna be more artificial than the rhythms you have in mind just because eighth and quarter notes can't account for musicianship. Unless you're actually just transcribing the rhythms wrong, in which case practicing transcription is your only way out

>>69647783
And your (you) just bumped this general to the top of the page

>>69642232
Movement 1 is the bombing
Movement 2 there's no more Dresden

>>69649649
who who and who?

>>69648078
depends. Sometimes start with melody in the head, sometimes improvise something, sometimes carefully construct a melody or chord progression from scratch either at keyboard or into a DAW.
Recording whistling or singing, then playing along with a MIDI controller (while recording into a DAW) as closely as possible gives nice organic results.
And thats just for melodies.

>>69647898
how is that in any way a canon?

>>69649351
Pléiades, Mycenae Alpha, Persepolis, Metastasis, Tetras, Tetora, Terretektorh for orchestra.

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Is there any other /holocaustcore/ like Pavel Haas?

>>69650899
Messaien quartet for the end of time. Webern?

These guys you probably haven't heard of?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Composers_who_died_in_Nazi_concentration_camps

>>69642250
Just keep listening. His tonal language is beautiful.

>>69648572
His organ works can be strange because of his registration. For example, sometimes every single note is a major triad.

>>69650974

Nice, thanks.
I just saw Messaien talked about in this context just a few posts above now too, derp.

Kek. Scherchen has a String Quartet he wrote while he was a Russian POW.

http://imslp.org/wiki/String_Quartet_No.1_in_E_major,_Op.1_(Scherchen,_Hermann)

Doesn't seem like it has been recorded, though. I'm kind of curious now.

>>69642232
I don't find that particular passage quite eerie. It's more beguiling and mystic. I think the meme around the Quartet with the concentration camp and all has been taken too far. Just think about love and Jesus, that'll get you through most of Messiaen.

>>69647898
Firstly, I think you can hold off on some of your materials. Plan where the canon actually starts. By immediately having the repetitions occur there's no real room for future development (Assuming you would like it to be a longer form or develop it forward. You could also consider making the Canon more obviously a canon by looking at other canons, rounds and fugal pieces. Fugues, in particular, are interesting because the canon is always present but also constantly presenting new material in the form of new themes or call-response activity.
In general, think about how the material can interact with itself and how you can manipulate the harmony within the melodic progression.

A good way to try and deal with that is stacking where your repeat happens under your prime melody (You can just add another piano to your score, or some other instrument)...Figure out what harmonies are going to happen underneath it all and figure out how that is functioning with the canon and its thematic material.

Keep it up, canons, rounds, and especially fugues are difficult forms to work with if you want them done well. My biggest peeve atm is just that it doesn't quite sound like a Canon. I see the ideas and it's there, but I'm sure if you consider what makes your work a canon and compare it to some other ones, you'll be able to better refine your form. Keep it up

(Consider working with more chromatic harmonies and progressions, as well as more complex rhythmic structure, think 3:2 or more syncopation; It all feels a bit too squarish. Though that might just be taste.)

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Best Mahler symphonies in order

Das Lied Von der Erde, 5, 2, 10, 9, 1, 6, 7, 3, 8, 4

Dieskau's singing in Der Abschied is heavenly

>>69652229
>5 that high
>4 and 8 that low
no

>>69652335
5 is the most engaging of all the symphonies from start to finish. The last movement of 8 is far too long. The first movement and the last 10 minutes of the second are great, everything in between is kinda eh. I just don't care for 4.

>>69652376
only good movements of the 5th are the first and last ones

>>69652477
Holy shit what? The scherzo is the best scherzo Mahler wrote in any of his symphonies, and the adagietto is the most gorgeous movement of any piece ever.

>>69652477
>can't into the 2nd movement
philistines

>>69652685
>concerto for cymbal crash

>>69648078
i suppose using articulations to get a better feel representation of what you want. Straight quarter/eight notes are alwasy gonna seem robotic if you dont add tenutos or accents or staccatos etc

>>69652710
I'd suggest learning about orchestration. You clearly dont know what you're talking about.

>>69647898
>serious replies and critiques of this cannon

its the goddamn lazy town song with some piano embellishment you uncultured fucks

>>69652758
sorry

>concerto for firetrucks and cymbal crash

>>69652710
No, that would be Dvorak's Scherzo Capriccioso

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gvww545WKg&t=11m15s

played that shit at all state

1. Horenstein
2. Steinberg
3. Horenstein
4. Horenstein
5. Schwarz
6. Kondrashin
7. Bernstein
8. Kubelik
9. Ancerl
Best cycle: Michael Tilson Thomas

Prove me wrong

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>>69652770

>>69652820
1. Hengelbrock
2. Stokowski / Kegel
3. Martinon
4. Mengelberg / Slowik
5. Walter / Boulez (old BBC one)
6. Hmmm
7. Kondrashin / Gielen
8. Horenstein / Stokowski
9. Maderna / Kubelik
Das Lied. Klemps / Slowik

Dunno if there's any one best cycle, honestly. I might say Kubelik on DG if most of it wasn't in piss-poor sound. It's still the most appropriately mannered cycle, though. Not to mention that he uses superior orchestral seating with antiphonal violins, which is extremely important in Mahler (thanks for fucking it, Stokowski)

I guess I'll go with Gielen for best overall cycle even if he's a bit too slow in some bits.

>>69652477
The first movement of the 5th symphony is why everyone here thinks he's a yid hack tho

>>69653211
Speak for yourself, anon.

Mahler is fun because of his gimmicks.

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>>69653211
*tips cowbell*

>>69653025
>Hengelbrock
?

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Most overrated conductors? pic related

>>69653750
Principal of the NDR Symphony Orchestra. One of the better modern conductors, in my view.

For that particular recording he uses the 1893 Hamburg version (the latest critical edition) which is less dense in its orchestration and also maintains the older second movement.

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>>69653815

>>69653917
I was thoroughly unimpressed with his Turangalila

Mozart

What the fuck is going on with Beethoven's last 4 sonatas? Why do they sound so weird to me? Has he trascended tonality?

>>69655764
he was deaf as shit

>>69652770
this is /classical/ not some tv general who knows what lazy town is (I had to google it)

>>69655191
He actually managed to make the Turangalila not sound like total shit? Astonishing

>>69656334
>he can't into 20th century music
why even reply if its outside your comfort zone / area of knowledge?
also I think you misread his post

I'm looking for some good piano music.
Not a concerto, and not Satie either because I've listened to him too much

>>69656702
beethoven piano sonatas. Debussy, ravel. Bach WTC (Schiff's 80s recordings are exceptional)

>>69656702
Prokofiev's piano sonate (you're missing out by not listening to his concerti, but your choice)
Busoni
Alkan
Liszt
Janacek
Brahms
Schubert

twink time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyjzqPPXDcw

>>69648170
>pleb

Did you recognize something?

https://youtu.be/NGrLb6W5YOM?list=LLnB8kkVBcg7I7-8SnseusUQ

>>69658969
Hey, itt's that pop song which saw Rach 2 for the populist meme piece that it is

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>>69658969

>>69647817
Gymnopedies by Erik Satie

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>>69658969
It's like rewriting classic literature for mentally handicapped.
Not as bad as those nightcore versions though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skB-pyMH6KI
Wait for it.

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>>69658969
>>69658982
>>69659004

In the comments of the original piece.

These are the kinds of people you share music taste with.

>>69659158
Did you read my comment you fuck. Rach 2 is meme-trash that plebs adore.

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>>69659158
Do not even try to challenge my tastes Satie fanboy

>>69659158
He misunderstood our intentions I think

What do you guys think of Chopin when regarding the piano? I dont know much about him, some of his stuff sounds good but I'm only familiar with Mozart, and I really like Mozarts piano sonatas.

What is the feel of Chopins stuff?

>>69659448
Easy stuff to seduce a girl. Try with Schoenberg

>>69659448
>when regarding the piano
I think Chopin didn't do much other stuff of value

>>69659469
>Easy stuff to seduce a girl.
What does this even mean? Pardon my rude response but why the hell would I care about what some brainlet female even thinks about me being familiarized with Chopin, its not like its opinions even matter or were even her own for that case.

>>69659487
I think he means playing Chopin yourself, and he is right

>>69659448
Arguably the best composer of piano music that there was.
His piano music is often credited with being a bit like bel canto opera in terms of the melodic lines, so there is some sort of kindred spirit between him and Mozart, albeit separated somewhat.

>>69659515
Well yes, thats what I inferred from his statement

>>69659528
Really now? thats very interesting, could you link me some of his pieces that you personally like a lot?, I will consider downloading his complete compositions if I like them

>>69659552
not him but hits one is nice and very popular

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ef-4Bv5Ng0w

>>69659552
I'm nowhere near as knowledgeable on Chopin as some of the people who post on /classical/ so I can't really speak with too much authority, but I'd imagine that his Preludes are a good starting point. Then move onto the Nocturnes.

>>69659613

Well he basically only made preludes, nocturnes and etudes so there's not really much to choose from.

>>69659627
>underrating the ballades, valses and impromptus

What does /mu/ think of Olafur Arnalds?

>>69659705
Man you're on /classical not a /PlebModernClassical thread, go fuck yourself

>>69659705
And he's on Deutsche Grammophon which is now a giant brothel (with Olafur Arnalds among other artists) it is Universal now.

Hell yeah, they kept Maurizio Pollini, Ivo Pogorelich ...

>>69659594
Is it bad that I thought it was quite boring? Maybe a hand full of stuff I could sample

>>69659731
I never said I liked him, on the contrary, I find his music a little annoying when it pops up in Spotify while I'm listening to the classical radio.

>>69659758

Chopin is indeed very boring.

>>69640264
Any piece that I'm trying to learn how to play ;_;

Also whenever I listen to Richters Schubert I just want to kill myself

>>69659627
he also wrote sonatas if I'm not misguided

>>69659758
I relistened to it and I think it's kinda slow, I know faster versions that get the feeling better. But it's ok if it's boring to you, but then Chopin may not be your cup of tea

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>>69659910
I don't wanna judge too soon after just listening to one song, give me a handful and I'll listen to them carefully

>>69659948
I'm not a Chopin expert either, just look for preludes and nocturnes on youtube, that's his most popular stuff

>>69659594
>Aldona Dvarionaite
Literally who.
>>69659758
Of course it sounds boring. Anon just linked one of the worst interpretations you'll find.

>When you have the America's Got Talent audience
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akbUTeuHJ-U

>>69648767
>Messiaen
>not the most complete musical concept of the 20th century

>>69660311

mother of god...

>>69660311
share zo

>>69660528
i wonder how many people itt actually pronounce it like this lmao

>>69660311
>if Chopin were a 20th century composer

Does /classical/ like Rachmaninoff's piano concertos?

>>69660694
3>2>(5)>4>1

>>69658347
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Alkkk-LjqM8

R.I.P.

>>69660742
I just wanted to know if you liked them

>>69660694
Rach III is a hit

>>69641101
9 > 7 > 5 > 6 > 3 > 8

>>69641172
>>69641101
>>69662068
8 is best

>>69662068
pretty much exactly in reverse order

>>69662168
That Anon obviously thought we were talking about Beethoven.

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Post Gesualdo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuNw8PkgO8o

>>69642756
His conducting is fucking hilarious. He always has the most ridiculous moves.

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>>69652820
>>69653025
What do you guys think of Tennstedt ? I find his patrial live cycle pretty engrossing but since I'm no Mahler specialist I'm not sure if I'm beeing memed.

>>69663703
Pretty good. Very heart-on-sleeve and individual but one of the better conductors within that realm. Sometimes I feel as if he's a bit too slow like his very deliberate Resurrection..

''Chopin was a bad composer'', Glenn Gould.

What do you guys think about it?

>>69660694
The 2nd and 3rd movement of the second piano concerto still bring tears to my eyes.

>>69664518
Did Gould ever said something relevant ? I mean, the man was literally autistic.

>>69664518
Gould is a pleb who doesn't know what counterpoint is.

>>69665010
>Gould was a great pianist, no doubt, but he was also outrageously eccentric and his opinions reflect that. He was critical of most composers, the notable exception being Bach, including Beethoven, Brahms and Mozart. His comments should be taken with a pinch of salt. His interpretations of many composers, while sometimes remarkable in their pianism, are subject to Gould's often wacky interpretations. So no, Gould's comments say more about Gould, than they do about Chopin's compositions.

>>69665010
>Glenn Gould has found his own approach to Bach and, from this point of view, he deserves his reputation. It seems to me that his principal merit lies on the level of sonority, a sonority that is exactly what suits Bach best. But, in my own view, Bach's music demands more depth and austerity, whereas with Gould everything is just a little too brilliant and superficial. Above all, however, he doesn't play all the repeat, and that's something for which I really can't forgive him. It suggests that he doesn't actually love Bach sufficiently.

t. Sviatoslav Richter

>>69665944

I've just started playing piano, and I've noticed that I can easily get to a 12th and with a bit of a stretch to a 13th.
Considering that I've played for only 4 months now, is it possible that through stretching and practicing my natural hand span will increase?

I refuse to post in a thread dedicated to a kike who ruined music. kthxbai

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>>69664518
Gould was basically right about everything. Mozart and Chopin are pleb shit and Bach is the GOAT. He was in a fortunate position that allowed him to speak that truth without being blacklisted in the community.

>>69662306
>when the guilt from murdering your child hits
>when you can't take of your wife's son anymore cause you killed him
>when your music is memed by an autistic weed smoking redditor with shit taste

What did this man do to deserve such a fate?

>>69666639
sorry, this thread is about Mahler, not Schoenberg

>>69667295
Schoenberg was directly influenced by Mahler. Mahler promoted Schoenberg's serialism.

>>69667547
wtf i hate mahler now

>>69664518
Gould was a bad performer, and an even worse composer.

>>69667547
Schoenberg probably would have done it with or without his promotion desu

>>69662068
>8 anywhere below 5 and 7

Awful taste

patrictian order:

6 > 3 > 9 > 7 > 8 > 5

>>69668596
yeah but would it have received much attention? Even Schoenberg considered it a subjective personal and private musical language. He was probably thinking "Mahler stfu about my personal music language nobody has ever heard of or I'm going to have to find an even more obscure one".

>>69670476
Ebic Poly reddit humor bro :^)

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is this analysis right?

>>69670799
I don't understand anything but how to read sheet music. What is the analysis doing exactly?

>>69670955
it helps in learning the interaction of chords

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>>69671413
>Active 2010s
Is Mozart still alive?

>>69671413
for children (with great taste)

Can someone provide evidence that Mahler is somehow an exceptional composer? He sounds like a more edgy Strauss to me. Totally unremarkable. The famed adagio feels like a Bruckner ripoff. Certainly not as earth-shattering as Mahler goys would suggest. I don't think he's especially bad or anything but I fail to see why he should be comitted to the pantheon.

>>69673462
There's a chapter about Mahler in here:
http://www33.zippyshare.com/v/kEH6qXyG/file.html
Along with some detailed analysis of his compositions

>>69673462
Bruckner is indeed better but he was basically the Mozart of his day so he never received the attention he richly deserved.

>>69673681
Why did Bruckner write the same symphony 10 times

>>69673739
He wanted to get it right

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>>69666639
No, here is the man who ruined music. Also /pol/ is that way friend

Can someone provide evidence that Mozart is somehow an exceptional composer? He sounds like a more edgy Haydn to me. Totally unremarkable. The famed adagio feels like a CPE Bach ripoff. Certainly not as earth-shattering as Mozart goys would suggest. I don't think he's especially bad or anything, but I fail to see why he should be committed to the pantheon.

Y'all cats read The Wire?

>>69674077
>popular music

>>>/out/

>>69674041
>typical Mahlerian behaviour

into the trash you go

>>69674284
Further proof that Mahler is underrated.

Can someone provide evidence that Bruckner is somehow an exceptional composer? He sounds like a more edgy Schubert to me. Totally unremarkable. The famed adagio feels like a Wagner ripoff. Certainly not as earth-shattering as Bruckner goys would suggest. I don't think he's especially bad or anything, but I fail to see why he should be committed to the pantheon.

>>69674342
you had to go all the way back to Schubert?

>>69674077
leave and never come back

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Literally "I was just pretending to be retarded" the composer.

Can someone provide evidence that Wagner is somehow an exceptional composer? He sounds like a more edgy Weber to me. Totally unremarkable. The famed adagio feels like a Meyerbeer ripoff. Certainly not as earth-shattering as Wagner gentiles would suggest. I don't think he's especially bad or anything, but I fail to see why he should be committed to the pantheon.

>>69674485
He was a second rate Liszt desu

I really like the Stokowski conducted CD of Mahler's Symphony No. 2

>>69674374
Bruckner is really close to Schubert desu

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>>69674525
>Stokowski

>>69674525
kys

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are these the faces of sex incarnate?

I really like the Gould played CD of Bach's Goldberg Variations

>>69674525
Get the fuck out right now.

I really like the Karajan conducted CD of Beethoven Symphonies.

>>69674580
Meanwhile Mahler's musical tradition is rooted in the unabahed self-indulgence and laissez faire decadence of Berlioz. Nice going

>>69674683
We weren't talking about Mahler

Are you ok?

>>69674525
stupid faggot

>>69674716
I think that autist thought you were insulting him and a composer he liked, or something

>>69674607
>>69674619
>>69674644
>>69674776
:3

>>69674778
Very silly of him. But I suppose anger makes you think and do silly things

>>69641771
Trying to top Beethoven drove Brahms mad, don't worry about it.

>>69674815
Yeah I lost the thread. At any rate the other shitposter who is clearly suffering from a case of Mahleria inadvertently compared Bruckner to a true great. I certainly think a comparison to Schubert is more flattering than a comparison to Richard Strauss. also

>not getting emotionally invested in trivial minutiae

First day on 4chan eh? :^)

>>69674077
>Y'all cats read The Wire?
No because it only discusses shitty music.

>>69641771
>claiming you can outdo great composers
>Mozart underrating
>32"TH"
>listing a meme sonata Known mostly as a curio for "muh swing time"

This post is brimming with bait

>>69674868
It was a comparison because Bruckner is literally Schubert 2.0 except far less flexible. That's it. You're reading too much into it, as I do not even listen to Mahler and just wanted to shitpost

>>69674952
>I just wanted to shitpost

Oh, in that case we cool dog

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>mfw someone says Ligeti isn't the GOAT near me

Is Claudio Abbado a good conductor as well?

>>69675024
>we cool dog
get the fuck out with your hip-hop negroid ebonics

>>69675183
of course. the best conductor for Mahler imo

>>69675192
>wants to shitpost
>demonstrates no understanding of postirony

Okey

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>>69673462
Mahler is closer to Wagner than Strauss, and no-one out-does Strauss in "edginess" than, well, Strauss. Elektra, for instance.

Never really thought of Bruckner and Mahler as particularly comparable past a superficial level. Sure, they're both loud romantics that composed long symphonies, but both took fairly different approaches in that regard. They do both heavily draw from Schubert, though Mahler is considerably more free-form and he can sound quite different from work-to-work, something which you can't say for the majority of Bruckner.

>>69674607
Stokowski is the most influential conductor of the 20th century.

>>69675183
He's ok. I don't think he has my favorite performance of anything though,

Bruckner's Quintet is very underrated

Hello /mu/.
I am currently having troubles with classical music. Could you help me out here?
I’ve liked classical music for quite a while now, I have a medium sized stack of classical CD laying around and I more or less know the deal around composers and their different main compositions. As I started diving deeper into the genre I’ve started to notice one thing. The music gets really complex at some points and, as someone has pointed above:
>if you don't enjoy a piece it's likely 2deep4u at the moment, relisten it a couple of times
I don’t know if it’s the right thing to do but I usually do this a lot. I’ve been listening to the First Book of the WTC since two years ago and I almost know each piece by memory. That does not mean I can fully appreciate the piece for what it is but just know “how it goes”.
Many times, I’ve heard people say great things about a certain piece, an example from above is “Diabelli Variations”, I’ve previously listened to this piece plenty of times and just cannot hear what many people say about it (Being one of the hardest on piano and a perfect example of Beethoven’s genius).
Another issue that I have is that when I attend concerts or listen to an especially long piece, my mind drifts off around the middle of the song and it gets really difficult for me to concentrate on the piece and I usually just “wake up” really close to the end and miss some of the best parts.

Do I have autism? Do I need a PhD in music to understand Mahler or complex compositions such as the WTC or Rachmaninoff’s Piano Concertos? I’ve been considering learning an instrument to see if that’s what I’m missing but that will consume time and money I cannot afford to spend. I’ve also read one book on music theory but sadly couldn’t make progress because it was too advanced for me
I really hope I can get some advice from you.
(And I know it’s a blog post but I don’t know of another place where I can get advice for this)

>>69675539
>Rachmaninoff’s Piano Concertos
>complex compositions
lel.
Also yes you have autism, you don't need to know anything to enjoy the music. It might help you appreciate but you can just listen and enjoy what you hear like with other music.

>>69675452
Strauss quickly backed off from Elektra. He settled down into a very fluffy sort of compositional mode. Mahler has the same fluff but it gets lost, obscured in a soup of musical jokes and underdeveloped ideas that plebs believe prefigures the ideas of the 20th century and therefore that makes Mahler a genius. He's especially a composer for the ADHD generation which neither has the patience for well-paced meditated ideas nor the patience to deal with sophisticated experimentation and challenging modalities. He is the perfect casual composer.

>>69675583
Mahler's "fluff" is quite different from composition to composition. How can you equate the cheeriness of the 4th symphony to the tragedy of the 9th? Even between the 8th and the 9th there are stark contrasts.

>obscured in a soup of musical jokes
Which jokes?
>underdeveloped ideas
Which ideas?

>He's especially a composer for the ADHD generation
Long symphonies and ADHD don't mix. The ADHD generation listens to pop-music, not Mahler.

>>69675539
One of my favorite things to with classical music is compare renditions...
Many of these pieces are performed over and over again, so where does a conductor or group take liberty in their own interpretation of the written music. These details make the music more enjoyable for me.

From your writing it seems that you are quite conscious of form, harmony, rhythm or color. Try paying attention to more specific details. In doing so, you may find greater appreciation for the piece as a whole.

>>69675561
>Implying its not complex.
Portraying emotion through music is no simple fucking task... Also, no one can carry a melody longer than Rach. That in itself is quite complex.

>>69675583
casual composers are people like Chopin or Mozart. just look at views on Jewtube

Mahler isn't nearly as concise or accessible and he remains as polarizing today as he was in life.

>Rachmaninov's Prelude in C-Sharp minor: there are passages familiar from pieces for children and from school concerts which are marked 'grandioso'. Tiny hands execute the gesture of strength. Children imitate grown-ups, perhaps even the virtuosi who have been swotting up their Liszt. It sounds tremendously difficult and at all events very loud. But it is comfortingly easy to play: the child knows that the colossal effect cannot misfire and that he is assured in advance of a triumph that has been achieved without effort. The Prelude preserves this triumph for infantile adults. It owes its popularity to listeners who identify with the performer. They know they could do it just as well. As they marvel at the power which forces the four-stave systems into a fourfold fortissimo, they marvel at themselves. In their mind's eye they can see their lion's paws growing. Psychoanalysts have discovered the Nero complex. This Prelude gratifies this from the outset. It allows the megalomaniac free play, without pinning him down to anything definite. No one can blame the thundering chords for turning the dilettante who churns them out so immaculately into a conqueror of the world. Risk and security are fused in one of the boldest instances of musical daydreaming ever created. The excitement rises to fever-pitch if, as a bonus, the piece is played in a three-quarters darkened hall. The sombre mood of destruction which the Slav idiom of the piece simultaneously threatens and glorifies, arouses in ever listener the certainty that in the foreboding gloom he too could easily smash the piano to pieces. He is assisted in this not just by the conjunction of the heavy artillery and easy playability, but by the design of the entire colossal bagatelle. Almost all tonal music, especially that of the post-Classical era, provides the contemporary amateur with the opportunity to make his own gesture of power in the final cadence. It is an affirmation as such, whatever has gone before

>>69675906
>Hence the ritardando. Its function is to underline and its strength enables the performer to measure his own by restraining himself and reining in his own impetuosity. Even if this gestural meaning of the final cadence may only date from the Romantic movement, it can be said that in the course of its post-Romantic debasement Rachmaninov emptied it of all content, freed it of every genuine musical event and threw it on to the market as a commodity.

>The Prelude is just one long final cadence; it could be described as a single, long, insatiable, repetitive ritardando. It parodies the passacaglia progression by taking three cadence-forming bass notes which can conclude the theme of a passacaglia, and presents them, as it were, as a passacaglia theme. Repetition insists on the point with ruthless self-advertisement. The phrases are so short-winded that even the most insensitive ear can scarcely go wrong. Moreover, the motif-forming melodic counter-voice merely paraphrases the cadence. All the music does say is: so be it. The fact we don't know what it is to be is what constitutes the essence of its Russian mysticism. In the middle it breaks into a run with a cheap series of triplets and creates the illusion of fluent virtuosity. But in vain. It is only the motivic counter-voice. Fate remains fate and insists that things are so and not otherwise. And when at the end it explodes with all the primal force of conventionality, it can be assured of the gratitude of all those who have always known this and could see it coming.

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>>69674485
Just look at his scores. Master orchestrator.
Being a conductor allows him intimate knowledge of what an orchestra is capable of, and how to push them to their limits.

His use of symbolic keys, and implementation of real life ideas into his music makes him exceptional.

For example: symphony No. 6, there's a part where we have a major chord, played at ff in the trombones - a bright, beautiful chord. This seamlessly blends into a minor chord, played by the oboes. The oboes have a much darker, more woody sound.

This chords represents life and death. Mahler uses his mastery of orchestration to hammer home the 2 extremes. And this is just one chord. Dont get me started on his melodies, harmony, polyphony, counterpoint and special effects.

>>69675750
ADHD=/= stupid or close-minded
I am saying he is a composer someone can easily get into if they don't want to listen to strings drone on and on in order to develop a motive or they don't have the patience to read a score or understand serial counterpoint or something (which admittedly I don't but I am trying to). but also just personally I find his music uncanny oftentimes. I can appreciate his best moments but I feel they are outweighed by the random Klezmer breakdown in the opening movement of symphony 5 or other musical absurdities like his firebrand flutterhorn. I feel like he is ultimately a lazy and self-indulgent composer in spite of whatever talent may be there, not unlike Debussy (however Debussy never physically nauseates me).

>>69676001
>muh special FX

Are you fucking kidding me? admittedly I can't go toe-to-toe with a real musical academic but are you TRYING to debase your argument?

>>69676032
the special effects was only a minor after thought. Its an element, but in no way is it the defining element of his music.

Special effects are important in composition, this isn't playing guitar where you can turn an effects pedal on. you have to be pretty creative and combine instruments in unusual ways to create special effects using only traditional instruments. Especially pre-1950 when extended techniques weren't really a thing.

>>69676001
>symbolic keys
Fuck off poly.

>>69676008
i am saying that an ADHD would be far more likely to listen to some short and sweet Chopin or something and put it on the background while they work on homework. im not even big on Mahler, btw. i just dont think he's the kind of person someone would listen to casually. it would be like listening to Bartok String Quartets at a Dinner party

>>69676109
Try reading a book on meaning in music. "Approaches to Meaning in Music" might be a good starting point.
Read "Mahler's Symphony Sonatas" and "Gustav Mahler and the Symphony of the 19th Century" For more specific focus on Mahler.

>>69676063
>you have to be creative and find ways make silly noises

>>69676109

Can confirm, its undercover Poly

>>69676118
Mahler, while being tonal is so discursive and unpredictable that even though I am diagnosed with ADHD I can knock out one of his symphonies no problem (as long as its not higher than 6 because then things get pretty JUST) while I have to exercise some self control to do the same with a work by Brahms. I can realize that just because Mahler managed to jangle his keys in front of my face for an hour and a half and keep my full attention this does not mean I should hold him in higher regard than Brahms.

>non-composers with no idea about orchestration or symphonic form try to understand Mahler
By all means continue, its quite amusing

>>69676513
Poly what is so sad is that you have spent time being meticulously musically trained and you still have all the trappings of an ingrate with no concept with subtlety. You are a Mozart underrater (a true one). That is all we need to know about your musical comprehension to write you off forever as any sort of authority to defer to.

>>69676630
no concept of subtlety*

>>69676630
this is so true. Somebody load up the tripfag favorite composer infographic.

>>69662084
8>2>3=4>9>6>1>7>5

>>69670799
wouldn't you rather do a functional analasys?

Daily reminder that equal temperament is the master race.

9 > 3 > 5 > 7 > 6 = 8 > 4 > 2 > 1
This is objectively correct.

>>69641876
I'm not good enough at piano to write a sonata purely by playing and improvising, I have to rely on programs and listen to the playback and that is why I will never be a truly great composer.

Is there any point trying to try composing music in my mid-twenties with absolutely no musical training? Should I just avoid it entirely to avoid the massive disappointment of realizing I'll never be musically minded?

>>69677598
>trying to try

>>69647817
yeah, military marched

When are parallel fifths okay?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjp0_cP8TA8

Thoughts?

>>69677506
at least not for piano, because good pieces are fun playing and you can't come up with something fun if you can't play at all. But you could still try to write within the boundaries of your abilities, minimal music can be good, too. It only sucks if you write stuff you don't understand yourself

>>69677664
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjp0_cP8TA8

Try to share available videos first

>>69677658
when used as a stylistic device or when after reducing the parallels the music is still complete and with correctly leaded voices. In general, you can do whatever you want if it sounds nice to you. Rules like omitting parallels have the only purpose to identify what's wrong, if something sounds bad

>>69677681
Oops
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjP0_cP8TA8

>>69677614
alright, I fucked up. Its going on 5am. Can you just answer the question?

>>69677598
of course there is. Not doing it would only satisfy your urge to compare yourself to others. That's not the point of producing art and nothing good comes from it. Do what you like, that's the only way

>>69677677
Of course that's why I'm trying to write a piano concerto

>>69655764
He transcended the barriers between the artist and listener. You are literally eavesdropping on the direct thoughts of a deaf genius. The grosse fuge is the closest we will ever get to understanding His torment.

>>69676630
>attacking the poster
>lol special effects are just silly noises
>hasn't read enough on Mahler to actually discuss his music
like I said, amusing

>>69677708
But I'm only worried about not being able to do what I like. Sometimes I get an idea for a musical idea but I don't really understand how to break it down and recreate it and much less how to develop it. And I don't imagine I could necessarily just teach myself without having the ability to transpose things in my head into different keys and whatnot. Because that's a sort of mentality that probably needs to be fostered early in life.

Me lads:
I am starting to learn how to play the piano, and teaching myself how to read music. Any tips or anything you can give to an amateur?

>inb4 git gud

>>69677697
I have trouble looking past terrible midi soundfonts. It sounds competent but rather cliche. The first motive is pleasant though desu

>>69677709
seriously? I think being able to write piano pieces is the condition for composing piano concertos

>>69677748
that's because you compare yourself to existing music the very moment an idea comes to you. Just take your time, developing an idea into something that you can present to others may take weeks. So many good ideas lead to nothing because people don't have patience with it

>>69677767
Bartok Mikrokosmos may seem a bit dull, but it's the best thing to get a perfect basis for your technique

>>69677815
I know nothing, Anon. Thanks for the recommendation.

>>69677482
Again, this is about Mahler, not Beethoven. Jesus Christ.

>>69677767
Want a tip?
Find yourself a teacher.

>>69678016
Way too expensive, Lad. It's either Metro fare, or Piano Lessons. My keyboard isn't even mine, it's borrowed from an aunty. Gotta find a way to teach me self.

>>69678056
Is it a keyboard or an e-piano ?
If its a keyboard I have bad news for you.

>>69678056

Classical pianist reporting in. If I have to be honest learning piano without a teacher is almost not worth it. You will end up learning a few songs and you will play them like shit forever.

For beginner 3 to 5 lessons per week are optimal, but if you can't afford it 1 lesson is usually enough. I'm pretty sure that you can save 15$ every week.

>>69678056
>>69678064
Well since you want to play I'll give you two book recommendations.
1. Russian School of Piano Playing Part 1 (I only know the german "Russische Klavierschule" so Im not sure about the translated one)
2. Carl Czerny - School of Velocity

>>69678056

You should stick with a teacher, at least for a few months. You don't know how your hand and arms actually work, nor do you know what is the proper positioning for every part of your body.
Youtube videos can give you some insight, but honestly you really need someone to look at you when you play your first exercises.
Otherwise you're risking some pretty shitty hand injuries in the long run.

fuck those mega.co.nz restrictions.
any way to download all these folders fast?

>>69678161
Megadownloader.

>>69678178
fuck you
thanks

>>69677802
lol, I don't understand, what else am I going to compare it to? I don't want to make a bunch of irredeemable shit.

>>69678221
Seriously. Download the megadownloader. Works like a charm.

>>69678256
fuck you.
I know, thanks

>>69678256
tahnsk shill

>>69672562
No he died last year

>>69678123
>School of Velocity
are you crazy to recommend this to a beginner? Bartok Mikrokosmos or Clementi are more realistic

>>69678118
if you have the will, the patience and the right literature, it will also work if you teach yourself. I did it myself, after teachers spoiled my technique before. Took me much longer to get rid of all the wrong stuff

>>69676417
really? i find Brahms easy listening even though i'm ADHD diagnosed.

things like Wagner and most opera in general are hard for me to listen to, though.

>>69678251
that's why you're not composing anything. Great artists produce art like children, just for the sake of it. Mediocre or bad artists try to emulate other people and fail or don't write anything at all because of it (e.g. you)

>>69678552
This is some silly new age crap you are peddling here. I'm quite certain being a great artist isn't a matter of sticking your head up your own ass and convincing yourself your shit doesn't stink (though it certainly has become a clarion call for this generation). I want to hear a real and practical answer, not some motivational platitudes. I have no pretenses of becoming a "great artist" in any case. Once again this would be overlooking some immutable realities. It would be an insult to the true greats if it was even remotely possible for someone like me to be able to hold a candle to them. For christ sake they had already composed some of their greatest works at my age.

>>69678552

>great artists produce art like children

a few of them did, the other majority had to study for decades, achieving excellence only in their late adulthood.
Also virtually every great composer was extremely knowleadgeable in composition and most of them were very proficient in at least 1 instrument.

Most people on /classical/ won't ever write a good composition because they are not used to write compositions at all. They don't just pop out of existence, they're the results of decades of hard work.

''Excellence is an art won by training and habituation.'', Aristotle.

>>69677482
9 = Das Lied >
2 = 8 >
6 = 10 = 5 >
3 = 7 >
1 = 4

>>69678690
so maybe you're not born for it? or you're just blocking yourself? this isn't any 'new age crap' but the truest essence of producing art. nobody is interested in art that doesn't come from the heart. You can cripple any idea immediately if you don't let it grow but probe it of it's value compared with ideas that already exist. I also speak her out of my own experience

>>69678735
That's true, but there intention, their inner urge to make art was always like for children. Not monetary reasons or the wish for being acknowledge (at least not that alone). Artists who think that way never go beyond mediocricy. The same is true for novelists, rock stars etc.

>>69678743
reeeeee stop underrating 4

>>69678745
yeah well maybe "heart" is important but I should think fucking skill is also important. The thing we tend to overlook in this highly postmodernity-laden world is that Jackson Pollock and Stockhausen were actually retards.

>>69678758
4 is okay, but not as good as the others

>>69678753

>their inner urge to make art was always like for children

I agree with you, but that still doesn't mean that not writing compositions is equal to having no talent.

As a piano teacher I'm costantly seeing extremely creative and talented kids that just won't amount to anything because their parents are pieces of shit who let them play video games all day.

Nowadays the distractions that people are subjected to are so efficient that most people simply won't have the attention span to develop the knowledge necessary to form a composition of any sort, and without that you really can't write good music.

That anon is not necessarly untalented, he probably just wasted his youth on distractions that felt way better than sitting in front of a piano to practice scales for 2 hours.

>>69678779
it's much more cohesive and interesting than either 3 or 7 in my opinion.

>>69678775
you disregard the fact that skill comes from nothing else but doing something repeatedly with heart. There is no moment when your skill is complete or when you're ready to do art. You have to do it in every moment with heart.

>>69678794
3 and 7 are all over the place, but I'd say the music is more interesting

mahler's music is never bad

>>69678788
maybe our society is the piece of shit for suggesting that human beings are like vessels that can be filled with skill and knowledge. Maybe the kid plays vidya because his parents think that it is 'useful' to learn piano or other stuff or to be good at school? maybe he would find something that he really likes if he wasn't forced to do something he doesn't like. Nothing good ever came from it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frxLoujddME

what's /classical/'s opinion on furtwangler as a composer? His third symphony made me physically sick (in a good way)

>>69678845
>physically sick in a good way

huh?

>>69678855
ever watched Mulholland Drive?

>>69678865
Yes but it didn't make me sick.

>>69678874
ever watched Salo?

>>69678890
Yes, but it didn't make me SICK...

>>69678901
sick as in uncomfortable, not ill

>>69678939
Oh, it made me very comfortable.

>>69678788
I grew up in a low-class environment, nobody even had so much as the feintest notion to sit my ass in front of a keyboard. When I said no musical training that probably didn't effectively communicate the scope of my musical deprivation in childhood. It was literally treated as background noise. Also don't knock video games, that's where I found all the music that was personally meaningful to me until my adolescence (and I'm sure that goes for a lot of anons). Worse yet I only started listening to classical seriously 6 years ago. But needless to say I'm not some covert Mozart so its not some huge loss. I think in an ideal world people would parent their kids just like east asians do in order to maximize their potential later in life. Whities just sort of shit their kids out and treat them like advanced pets.

>>69678952
Agreed. They should be treated like show dogs instead.

>>69678845
Same anon: I'm listening to the Keilberth recording and my God Furtwangler's 3rd is truly beautiful

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What do you think of Naxos Music Library's taste?

>>69679898
Where's Blackstar?

>>69676118
>an ADHD