Where do I start with feminist and queer theory?

>>9232503
>>>/r/eddit

>>>/lgbt/
But frankly please don't.

>read Burke
>read Wollstonecraft
>go to bookstore
>take copy of Butler books
>place them in store's toilet

>>9232503

kill yourself

>>9232503
Simple answer: you don't

Check out some books by Jack Halberstam.

but desu i'm in the same boat and the intellectual "culture" of /lit/ prevents any meaningful discussion of the topic.

For feminist literary theory, the Madwoman in the Attic.
For feminist theory, de Beauvoir.
For queer theory, Butler's Gender Trouble.

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>>9232587

Before reading Gender Trouble, I would suggest getting at least slightly familiar with the ideas of Monique Wittig, Simone de Beauvoir, Luce Irigaray, and Lacanian Psychoanalysis.


Someone should really make a Feminist/Queer theory chart.

>>9232606
No, they shouldn't.

>tfw mysterious turn of the century women in central european painting will never sit on your face

>>9232503
Fuck off, you degenerate

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>>9232606
There already is one, from years ago.

read John Money.
He is the root of all this feminism/queer bullshit.

>>9232520
>>9232525
>>9232534
>>9232544
>>9232563
>>9232575
>>9232607
>>9232613
>>9232635
>>9232650

Why all this hate?

Feminism and queer theory is arguable the apex achievement of Western civilization

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>>9232666
Please argue this, Satan.

Is posting about feminism the way to purge this board of /pol/ interlopers? It seems to be triggering them much more than marxism already does.

>>9232666
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLFGMWoQaCU

>>9232503
Ask your parents.

>>9232503
look at femdom porn on /gif/

>>9232672
Although it's the designated enemy, /pol/ can accept parts of Marxism.

Feminism, on the other hand, really makes them mad on a personal level.

It's the empowerment of those fucking women that rejected them and won't suck their penis

>>9232503
In a women's bathroom.

Watching at least 24 hours of real voyeur video is OK, although it's still can't be compared to hiding inside some Asian latrine.

Remember: women have hundreds of hours of toilet experience. You can't walk in their shoes until you pissed into them accidentally.

>>9232676
John Money was a pervert, I still enjoy reading feminism and queer theory.

C'mon, you think Evola and the rest of the /pol/-core were fucking innocent?

ITT: /lit/ getting triggered

>>9232638
kind of a strange list, the top portion is indeed feminist theory.

>>9232503
Op, I'd start with Judith Butler (Cyborg Manifesto, Gender Troube) and Dworkin (Intercourse). Helene Cixous and Kristeva aren't bad places to start either.

people not on this list Eve Sedgwick, Michel Foucault's History of Sexuality

>>9232503

Do all these "queer theoreticians" ever stop and think how fucking bourgeois they are?
Not a sinlge actual working class man or woman gives a flying fuck about your the complexities of your poopdicking and bug chasing.

Joanna Russ

>>9232666
>feminism:everything after first wave is just man-hating

>queer theory: why are we so fucking gay?

yep that's the apex, sure beats all that architecture and math and exploration

Origin of the Family etc by Engels
Male Fantasies by Klaus Theweleit

>>9232503
the female eunuch by germaine greer

>>9232736
Gender dysphoria affects people from all walks of life. But yes, it is true that the working class suffers from the most repression and therefore has the least visible such class of people.

>>9232740
What's wrong with hating men?

100% of people who do not understand the very interesting epistemological consequences of gender have not read Bodies That Matter.

>>9232770
>philosopher Judith Butler
>dropped

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>>9232736
1. Your belief there are no working class people who care about it is bizarre. It shows how completely isolated you must be in life that you don't realize that massive amounts of working class people are gay/trans.

2. Very few working class men or women give a flying fuck about the complexities of space travel, mathematics or chemistry (let alone literature or philosophy) but it's not really argument against those fields is it?

>>9232820
I agree, but I think it's more accurate to say that massive amounts of gay/trans people are working class.

>>9232707
i despise women who sucked my penis even more than the ones who didn't. i despise myself and i despise the degeneracy i got caught into.

>hurr men are so great durr

is there anything worse than cis white men???

>>9232931
A circle of self hatred:

I present to you the alt-right

Why can't you learn to live and let live?
You should focus your hate on your masters denying you healthcare

>>9232751
some people have no time to think about what they feel their gender is beacause they are too busy working. that's what he was trying to say i think.

>>9232975
False flag!

>>9232986
i have free healtcare and consider myself a communist
i'm also scared i might have aids

>>9232754
that they mostly love women so by hating them you hate women too

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>>9232986
>live and let live
kill yourself liberal

>>9233005
get tested dude. Its not a death sentence. People live a long time with it, and there are promising new studies with bone marrow transplants. For the first time I can remember, there is actual hope that HIV can be cured.

>>9232988
I agree with what your saying but this ridiculous obsessive hate you find on 4chan is just as retarded

>>9232666
>apex achievement of Western civilization

hahahahah holy shit

>>9233032
/lit/ is not like most of 4chan. I see /pol/like posts but they are always way better argumented than real /pol/ posts.

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>>9233048
go away leftist subhuman

you are not welcome on this website

>>9232820
1. It's 5-10%, as with all populations
2.Advancements in chemistry, math, etc. can be used to help the lower classes (medicine, technology). What in queer theory helps the working class?

>>9233054
Queer theory helps queer people, who make up 5-10% of the working class.

>>9233052
>leftist

Left and right are political terms originally used to describe factions in early 19th century French politics.

They have no meaning in the 21st century

>>9233070
what material help it provides?
list it please

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>>9233073

>>9233052
Right wing beta faggot detected

Please leave the internet

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>>9233078
I would also like to see this

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>>9233090
bernie can still win

make my wife's son's dream come true and vote communist

>>9233103
Bernie is further to the right than Trump you gigantic faggot

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>>9233110
drumpfthf btfo how can he recover

>>9233122
Lay down hell of a garage you cunt

>>9233078
Broader acceptance of their sexuality and related conditions and more robust resources to address issues related to these on both personal and official terms. Do you think there would be gay marriage, legal status for trans people, and the medical/psychological resources available to both today without queer theory?

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>>9233151
what did he unironically mean by this

>>9233153
This applies to gay people regardless of their socio-economic status. We're talking about the working class.

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>>9233122
Communism won in America 2016

>>9233166
Yes. There are no benefits of queer theory specific to the working class, and no one in this thread ever said there were. The form of your argument is a "straw man."

>>9233166
If it applies regardless of class then it applies to the working class.

>>9233180
>>9233181
The beginning question made by >>9232736 is what I'm referring to.

>>9233197
I don't see the part of the post where he says "because there are no benefits of queer theory which apply exclusively to the working class."

>>9233153
the "accept your sexuality" is an idea inherently modern that has been presented to us only when everything started to be packaged as an identity to be bought. human sexuality was way more complex than how is it presented todays.

queer theory creates the problem they think are being resolved.

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>>9233217
I don't think queer theory existed in the times of Oscar Wilde and Alan Turing, yet those two still seemed to face some issues. I also present to you this chart demonstrating the codification of sexuality non-acceptance which existed prior to the foundation of queer theory.

>>9233210
But can you honestly say "Queer theory helps the working class" when 90-95% of the population is unaffected?

>>9232751
>Gender dysphoria affects people from all walks of life.
Only because the internet accelerated the spread of fashionable neuroses to light speed.

>>9233278
Yes

>>9233279
That's the cause for some of the claimants, but I doubt it has much to do with the interclass penetration.

>>9233250
don't get me wrong, i'm absolutely against punishing people for their sexual behavior apart pedos.

my point is a bit autist: most of the problems EVERYONE faces today is the obsession to have an identity - many identities also, as they're cheap to buy. and queer theorists, just like many feminist scholars, force a perception of reality that fabricates most of those problem. think about the outing-craze by queer activists during the 80s.

also, every acceptance-something discourse is stupidish at best, because the best way to live our life is not to worry about how other people filter ourself which is what acceptance activist want: to change the way we are seen as gays, trans, fat, blue haired or whatever; to change it for the better, everyone should bless everyone etc; that is not only impossible, because we don't have the means to do so (partly we do have means to do so: propaganda), but also heinous.

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>mfw this thread

>>9233291
>yes
E L I T I S T

>>9233298
Your real problem is consumer society. Queer theory itself isn't to blame for whatever is co-opted by capitalism and in fact is congruent with its undoing. Also the types of 'queerness' present in the media barely scratches the surface.

>because the best way to live our life is not to worry about how other people filter ourself which is what acceptance activist want

What the activist wants is primarily to be left alone for what constitutes that person which cannot be helped.

>>9232740
Going into space! Mathematics! Quantum mechanics! The secrets of the universe! It's all there! Life is fiery with its beauty! Its incredible detail! Tuning into it!

being gay is no different than being a furry, stop identifying as your sexual fetishes

>>9232670
>>9232740
Not the guy from >>9232666, but:
>Interdisciplinary, applies to many fields, including literature, philosophy, history, biology, psychology
>Utilizes methodology from all fields listed above; "standing on shoulders of giants" applies as much here as it does to recent breakthroughs in physics/maths
>Has enabled the creation of new sub-fields within these broader fields
>Explains/explores some of the rarest and most complex states of human existence
>Is the chief lens through which many are viewing the upcoming posthuman age
It's a useful and interesting thing to study. I'd still argue pure maths is more fulfilling/beautiful, but I'm biased in that regard.

>>9233358
>Queer theory itself isn't to blame for whatever is co-opted by capitalism and in fact is congruent with its undoing.
Stop joking around, you've been coopted by capitalism as another "lifestyle choice" without even realizing it and you also serve as a low-hanging fruit for the left that distracts from a change in the regime of production. You're as much a product of capitalism as an iPhone is.

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>>9232503
Don't. Read Sheila Jeffreys instead.

>>9233405
>you've been coopted by capitalism as another "lifestyle choice" without even realizing it

I literally just told you this so I don't know how you came to the conclusion that I haven't realised it. Please pay attention. Also 'I' haven't been co-opted -- we're not arguing from the only two opposing positions available.

>distracts from a change in the regime of production.

Not really -- as I said it is congruent even if outcomes from the theory have found their way onto the market. Like I said, it barely scratches the surface. Not all queer theory is commodified.

It's like you didn't even read my post. You barely acknowledged what I said and haven't come up with an adequate response.

>>9233358
it's just that i see empirically way too many young queer folks that wear their sexuality as an accessory and define themselves thru it & i think gender theory helped this situation as it implies we can choose what we are - the chat we are having here would be deemed queerphobic

>>9233411
>Jeffreys stated in a 2014 ABC Radio "Sunday Night Safran" program that transsexual women are either "homosexual men who don’t feel they can be homosexual in the bodies of men" or "heterosexual men who have a sexual interest in wearing women’s clothes and having the appearance of women", provoking criticism from members of the Indigenous and trans communities for racism and transphobia.

holy shit

gender-academia-industry-complex BTFO

>>9233392
It's academic wankery friend.

>>9233455
Well I've seen activists who are actual Marxist rather than 'liberal' who propose decolonisation, ending the continuation and effects of capitalism, which includes the imposition of binary gender identities. I can't honestly reconcile this side of queer theory with the young people who accessorise their queerness. But they're young anyway and not really into theory itself. I doubt they read it really.

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>>9233503

>>9233489
>racism
what

trannies are a race now?

>>9233527
>the sky is blue
Haha but you didn't argue it on my terms so I guess you're wrong ecks dee

>>9232666
>666
Oh, that explains it.
Christian cleansing of all this degeneracy by force when?

>>9233580
>everything I say is as obvious as "the sky is blue"
>anyone who wants me to explain my reasoning is either stupid or trolling
ecks dee indeed, my dude

>>9233582
DEUS

>>9233590
VULT

You don't.

>>9233601
FINALLY someone posted this comment. I've been waiting since the start of the thread.

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>>9233589
Is this bait? It's an opinion, nobody has to explain how they got to their conclusions to you.

>>9233622
That's what a discussion is, though. If we just assert opinions at each other, we can't get anything out of the conversation. If we understand why we think what we do, and explain ourselves to one another, then we can learn something. That way, even if neither party changes his mind, both go away with something to think about.

tl;dr Shouting an opinion onto the internet is pointless unless you explain it.

>>9233638
I think you're wrong but I'm not gonna tell you why :^)

>>9233604
see
>>9232563

>>9233572
don't you know?

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>>9233686
(You) sure showed me lad.

Start with the Greeks, as in, start with Sappho, or as much Sappho as you can find. (As a supplement read LEL's Improvisatrice)
Then read Cristine de Pizan's "Book of the City of Ladies."
Then Mary Wollenstonecraft, and the people she works with or against.
That's a good start.
Then read The Second Sex
Also I'd suggest Visual Pleasure in Narrative Cinema, but have a working knowledge of Lacan and Freud (you don't need to be an expert but a working knowledge is good)

>>9233153
Queen theory, gay studies, and radical feminism had practically nothing to do with any of the developments in LGBT rights. Activism by members of the community, also an outreach campaign to let people know their friends and family members were gay, drove these rights movements so that people would empathize more. Judith Butler isn't used in policy arguments, and Andrea Dworkin and Catherine MacKinnon were looked at as both a joke and a nuisance throughout the 80s and 90s by the vast majority of people. Some activists are certainly familiar in these fields, but many aren't, and even the ones that are don't convince people by talking about Foucault, homosociality, or reading from the Cyborg Manifesto.

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>>9232672
>everyone turned off by "feminist and queer theory" is /pol/
>everyone who takes issue with any part of feminism is /pol/
>everyone on the right is /pol/
>everyone I disagree with is /pol/

Also notice how little blind rage there is ITT, proportionately. I definitely recommend leftyposting for grabbing (You)s like this one, but I don't think you'll be able to kick every contrarian off this board.

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>>9233032
>ridiculous obsessive hate
>mean words = frothing anger
maybe people just toss out epithets as a casual part of speech regardless of their emotions you fucking imbecile. It is, after all, a cultural motif on the chans, fuckface. If you spent a little more time lurking you might know that you mold-fuzzed, drooping tumor on the ballsack of humanity. But I suppose that's what happens when you let people from /r/books into your sekrit klub.
:^)

>>9232672
I don't think we'll get /pol/ to leave by turning into a miniature version of it. There was a time where lit was less political and mostly a place for people to ironically shitpost about literature. If we go back to that kind of behavior /pol/ and /antipol/ will get bored with this board in no time.

>>9233392

Where and in what has queer theory used the methodology of say a clinical trial or that of statistical analysis or of methodologies of praxis?

Genuine question, I'm curious.

>>9234538
imho never

i'd like to offer a technical/legal perspective of the issue that i think is not very common knowledge

when queer people, wether gay or traps, sue someone for topics related to oppression there's one single predicting aspect that makes for a positive outcome: when they position themselves as victims of a system were they are an unfortunate minority. if you try and go to court with a challenging world view, like queer theories obviously, you're most likely to lose! you have to play the victim of an unfair world rather than being critical of how it works.

>>9234394
>/pol/ tries making a point

>>9232503
kill yourself

>Hey guys feed me some more Cultural Marxism
You should be removed, so to speak.

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>>9234692

>>9234692
>Cultural Marxism
I thought this meme was done.

>>9234710
How is it a meme? People like Adorno stated the purpose of the Frankfurt School very clearly.

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>>9234718
*shutting down intensifies*

>>9232606
Derrida's work on performative utterance should probably be read too, at least one of his essays on the topic anyway to get an understanding of where the idea of performativity comes from (not that Derrida is the only person involved in this tradition obviously, but he was pretty formative for Butler).

>>9234718
what he said?

>>9232730
Eve Sedgewick is surprisingly accessible. I really like her writing voice, even though I haven't read much of her work.

>>9234394
>OP tries to start a discussion on a field of literature
>degeneracy
>Stop talking about this it doesn't even matter
>fuck off lol
>le bait
>le trump
>Hey ummm could you stop generalizing?

I implore you to kill yourself.

>>9234718
anything you don't like reduces down to a meme

>>9234710
It's well and strong since the 30s. How is it done in a few years of resurgence?

>>9234529
This.
It's a 2-way street. People accuse others of turning this into /pol/ 2.0 while they are actively trying to make this board into /leftypol/ 2.0

>>9232707
this is what leftists actually believe

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>>9232503
In the gutter.

Or a trash can.

>>9232666

"Arguably," first of all.

Second - are you kidding?! Have you recently been bludgeoned near to your death?

Neither of those things has made ANY contribution to Western Civilization.

If anything, their greatest achievement is to be a hot-button for politicians to push anytime they want to manipulate the public.

It's time for you to wake up.

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>get queer theory reading for class
>it's Halberstam

>>9234538
Mostly in borrowing datasets and showing that they support certain philosophical positions. There's not a lot of direct sampling of data, but queer theorists regularly grapple with existing scientific/anthropological research.

im bisexual and ive never understood why people place importance on sexual preference.
in my lit classes where i say this im usually im told im not like most other lgbt people.
idk, the obsession straight people have with lgbt literature is weird. ive often seen straight writers write bisexual characters because they think theyre representing a range of sexual preference or something but to me i dont feel any more represented or whatever. ill add i lean conservative vs the good little liberal faggot or whatever im supposed to be but idk, i just think the current fixation on sexual preference in literature is weird.
i just find both masculine and feminine qualities attractive, i dont think theres a lot else to talk about.
ive never really delved into "lgbt" literature so im interested in what the current obsession with it is.
idk what im missing. some people like their own sex, dont. whats so fascinating about it?

>>9235405
*some people find their own sex attractive, most dont.
sorry im drunk

>>9233392
Too bad the only valid field is theology.

>>9233054
We're not talking about what helps people we're talking about they care about.

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>>9233278
Only 5-10% of the population are directly affected bu this doesn't include people who have relatives, friends and coworkers who are gay/queer.

It also doesn't include straight men who are not stereotypical masculine who are now less marginalised by gender norms.

>inb4 some basement dwelling virgin defends gender norms they themselves don't live up to

J S Mill

>>9232503
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultana's_Dream

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How are gender norms a part of capitalism when they existed before the 1500s, and moreover exist in every known human society?

inb4 someone tells me about the Polynesian Takawakhu tribe that has gender equality, that's not the same thing as a genderless society.

Honestly I think communists are just latching onto some trendy "critique" in order to stay relevant because nobody works in a factory anymore.

>>9236204
>How are gender norms a part of capitalism

Is this a thing?

>>9236204
The attempt to destroy any notion of gender norms is a clear consequence of neo-liberalism. The Capital needs you to deny your identity as a male or as a female, it needs you to deny your nation, your values, your family unit so you can be a pure individualistic manchild.

>>9233392
>Interdisciplinary, applies to many fields, including literature, philosophy, history, biology, psychology
Feminism and queer theory do not /apply/ to these fields. They are interpolated into them. Theory is eisegetic... it only really reveals anything about the biases, presuppositions, and creative readings of feminisms and queer theories, nothing about literature, philosophy, history, biology, or psychology. You can just as well say that /colours/ are "applied" to literature, philosophy, history, biology, and psychology. i.e. when you train your perception to undertake feminist readings and queer readings, you perceive what you are trained to perceive.

>Utilizes methodology from all fields listed above; "standing on shoulders of giants" applies as much here as it does to recent breakthroughs in physics/maths
To what end? Physics and maths can produce measurable progress in certain well-defined contexts. What exactly has Theory done that you believe is comparable to this?

>Has enabled the creation of new sub-fields within these broader fields
The expansion of the humanities with identity-backed degrees and borderline mysticisms is mostly driven by capitalism, growth imperatives, and the self-interest of universities. It is also a sad reflection of the way in which the "service economy" is becoming increasingly specialised/artisan (often in order to be different, distinctive, and competitive). In this case, we are talking less a cute little coffee house which serves "deconstructed coffee", and more a deluded person who leaves higher study with no skills or knowledge of any practical or theoretical use. It is a total waste of life. What happens if the social value of their identities changes, and they are stuck with a degree in gender studies?

>Explains/explores some of the rarest and most complex states of human existence
Refines, and abstracts human experience in order to define and control people solely through their innermost feelings and desires. Again, a servant of capitalism.

>Is the chief lens through which many are viewing the upcoming posthuman age
"Progress" is always defined by the strong trends of the present, because a surprising amount of people actually lack the imagination to think that things could turn out differently. Feminism and queer theory will not be sustainable if the Western World's imperial projects (USA, EU) fail. They are essentially imperial ideals, because they seek to rob local and national structures of human capital using highly abstracted forms (always tied to inalienable factors of the self: biological sex, feelings/desires, etc) and integrate people into manipulable globalised consumer collectives.

>>9236308
^^^^^^^^^ this ^^^^^^^^

>>9232534
kek

>>9236204

If anything its the opposite. A capitalist, cosmopolitan culture should be far more socially liberal. This is what you see in major cities like NY and LA

Socialism, despite modern belief, actually demands a more conservative mindset, as people need to be held to certain moral standards to make sure they're not wasting the public money. There will also be more pressure to start "traditional families" as again, if you live in a collective society, people won't appreciate you not contributing funds/kids.

Perhaps its more accurate to say, individualism destroys gender norms (for better or worse), collectivize strengthens them

>>9236204
Read Christopher Lasch, he talks a lot about capitalism's deleterious effect on traditional norms, roles, and institutions. It's the same thing as when Chomsky says that capitalism is, at its core, anti-racist: it doesn't make sense for there to be differentiations between peoples when their main function is as laborers and consumers.

>>9236308
Great post. On your last paragraph, the LGBT rights office at the UN has begun suggesting that some rights, namely traditional customary and religious ones, are "not absolute" and will need to make room for LGBT rights. Many in Africa are disturbed by this, and it's hard to say this isn't a soft form of imperialism, even when many who work in the LGBT rights office aren't westerners.

>>9233177
the trump /po/ personality cult is very stalinist

>>9236161
>one should be content with what they are
t. Letzter Mensch

>>9236161
>implying it's wrong to defend ideals even if you don't stand to gain from them
>implying male gender roles are hurtful but using virgin as an insult
you're a 4chanfeminist alright

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>>9232820
>working class doesn't include engineers doctors, scientists or lawyers, even though they are still workers

>>9237500
indeed, that's how english works

>>9232820
All those fields are bad.

>>9237537
this
class struggle is literally the only thing that matters and we must not let yourselves be distracted by spooks like "ethics", "morals", "aesthetics", "sympathy", "quality of life", "common sense", "fairness", or any other counterrevolutionary ideas

>>9237617
Bad rhetoric.

Those fields approach every 'spook' poorly and from a disgustingly normative stance.

>>9237639
I don't see the connection between your sentences
what are you disagreeing with?
BTW, unclear communication helps the class enemy so you're on my lists of suspects

>>9237617

you should probably kill yourself. surprise! rich people are rich for a reason and it's because they're better than you.

post- structuralism. Derrida and Foucault

>>9237764
>you should probably kill yourself
wrong you should kill yourself
>rich people are rich for a reason
the reason is that we live in a class society
>it's because they're better than you
it's because we live in a class society, and "better" is a counterrevolutionary spook

>>9237781
How exactly will you bring about this new classless society, faggot?

>>9237781
than why do you and traps and whatev want to gain access to everything perfect made by exellent people? why you ask for health care that is created by highly intelligent people and made effective only by expensive research and tools?

>>9237890
>>9237901
>putting statements I haven't made in my mouth
kys class enemies

>>9237924
Your mouth is now big enough to receive my ample cock.

Women should be indentured into mines for 2000 years in service of equality. Only when they emerge from caves half blind and with broken backs can we have sex peace forever. Gays will be cured in the meantime.

>>9233078
women's shelters. soup kitchens via dorathy day. the social work industry.

>>9237109
Would it be imperialism to force Muslims to stop genital mutilation of infants or to stop the Aztecs from doing human sacrifices as well?

This is the problem with cultural relativism. You can't justify standing up for human rights unless you are willing to claim that they are universal and people who trample on them are simply wrong.

>>9238655
why do you care what muslims do in their own countries?

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>>9239037
What about the Aztecs? Should they get to do what they want in their own country as well? Are you saying that might makes right and whatever the powerstructure of a given society looks like it is justified by the mere fact that it exists as a stable entity?

>>9233298
Acceptance is best when you ignore the more polarizing movements (tumblr type screen caps that get reposted) and focus on the idea that one can interact with anyone else without relying on built up biases influencing them. It can actually help you when interacting with someone who you immediately read as good, but is actually harmful. Ie an attractive white man who attempts to befriend you, but only seeks to benefit themself (use you for your car, money, social standing, etc). That's not to say that you can make any generalizations about white men from this, because that would be ridiculous (the "4chan's view of tumblr" fallacy), just that by dropping those built up views of who is "safe" vs "unsafe" can lead to more personal benefits than keeping them would.

Is this a fucking joke? Queer theory? Holy fuck when did academia become so pathetic

>>9239319
>I don't understand why people would want to try and understand something that I don't like

>>9239078

Yeah. It's not our business to mess around with a sovereign country's internal affairs. This is the kind of bullshit thinking that ruined South Africa.

Human rights are a meme.

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>>9239450
So if human rights are a meme why can we not simply invade whatever country we want and force our own powerstructure on it?
Surely you aren't going to tell me that it's wrong because it violates human rights?

>>9239466

No. Invading whatever country we want would be messing around with a sovereign country's internal affairs.

You have to understand that what you think of as "universal" human rights are actually a Western legal concept with no history outside of the West. It's arrogant to expect other cultures to enshrine them and it's a waste of time, money, and effort to try to civilize the savages in Africa, Asia, and South America.

>>9239502
>sovereignty
Why should we give rights to a country if we deny them to its people?

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>>9239506
also have this smug anime face

>>9239506

We have no authority to enforce our version of human rights outside our own borders.

Honestly what would you like to see happen? The Navy Seals parachuting into India to stop an arranged marriage?

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>>9239536
Muslims don't have the authority to search out and kill minorities or people who abandon their religion, mistreat their women and mutilite their childrens genitals. Are you telling me they have authority over those people?

And why is authority real if human rights aren't real? Shouldn't both of those be memes?

Any material covering the decline of great empires provides an excellent entryway.

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>>9239582
ねえアノンーくん。
答えしてよ~!

facialabuse has some nice video tutorials on this sort of thing

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>>9239582

Authority is a physical reality. If I'm the head of a militia and you're a peasant, then guess what you're my bitch. I can compel you to change your behavior in measurable ways. Muslims can do whatever they want in their own countries. I don't approve of their culture but that doesn't mean I want to interfere. One the one hand it's expensive, in terms of "blood and treasure" and on the other hand it's completely futile. You can't change people who don't want to be changed. European liberal democracy evolved over the course of literally thousands of years. You can't "jump start" that process in African shitholes where they only just found out the earth was round last saturday.

I don't know why you're being so obstinate when it's clear that I'm right.

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>>9240870
>We have no authority to enforce our version of human rights

What you're talking about here is nothing more than powerdynamics. If you want to equate authority with justification, go right head, but in that case you have already conceded that, since we have the superior technology, it's perfectly reasonable for us to make the middle east our bitch and take all the resources we want.
>b-but muh imperialism
If we have the power to make people our slaves then our authority over them is a physical reality.

>>9236308
>when you train your perception to undertake feminist readings and queer readings, you perceive what you are trained to perceive.
The same could be said of any discipline. Economists tend to think of things in terms of value. Marxists tend to think of things in terms of class conflict. Etc. Even if these types of readings tend towards uniformity, they still act as useful examples of the theory.

>To what end?
By understanding the unique experiences of queer people and other "others," we discover new inequalities in our society. If you think unjustified inequalities are a problem, then identifying them is a worthwhile end, since you can't fix a problem without knowing what it is first.

>What happens if the social value of their identities changes, and they are stuck with a degree in gender studies?
This seems more like a critique of academia than gender studies, and it applies just as well to a degree in computer science or architecture. What if the value of programming changes? What if the value of drawing blueprints changes? By this logic, any degree is worthless.

>Again, a servant of capitalism.
This isn't necessarily the case, though. There are plenty of anti-capitalist queer theoreticians, and several make the case that true queer liberation is only possible outside a capitalist context. Even if we overlook their visions and focus on the broader field, we see that most of the progress made is far from pro-capital. Only the shallow, pop-theory of buzzfeed and the like actually ties queer theory intimately to capitalism.

>Feminism and queer theory will not be sustainable if the Western World's imperial projects (USA, EU) fail.
Strongly disagree. Grassroots feminist movements in Latin America and Asia are picking up steam, and anti-rape advocacy is becoming prevalent worldwide. You'd have to be completely deluded to think that this social progress only serves imperialist interests, or would disappear without imperial enforcement.

None of this is to say that you should major in women's/gender studies, or even pay for a class in it. But it's certainly worth thinking, reading, and writing about.

>>9242092

>it's perfectly reasonable for us to make the middle east our bitch and take all the resources we want.

Just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should. It's easier just to buy their oil. I guess you could physically force Muzzies to stop being Muzzies but what's the point? Why go to all that effort over such a flimsy abstraction as the UN Human Rights Code?

As I've said before it's waste of time, money, and soldiers.

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>>9243768
You're losing track of the conversation.
We started out with the idea that forcing other countries to accept lgbt rights was soft collonialism, and we should leave them to their own devices, went from that to the question to whether people in general have intrinsic rights.
If they do it is our moral duty to stop "the muzzies" from murdering non-believers and ethnic minorities in the streets.
If human rights are a mem, and authority can be used to justify pretty much anything then taking over these countries and establishing our own stable dictatorship is much more economically effective than having to extract them while dealing with sabotage by enemy militias and juggling the political aspects of these resources being contested by other superpowers. Unless you mean to say that it's more beneficial to keep the middle east a proxy-warzone because it stabilizes our own region. In either case your whole "we gotta accept foreign states sovereignty because muh natural authority" argument falls apart.

Face it anon, your ideology is folding in on itself because of its inner contradictions.
Crying about imperialism and oppression of other people and nations by westerners only works if you are willing to admit that they should be respected as sovereign entities in the first place, with all the implications that carries with it. To justify the legitimacy of barbaric shitholes you have to be willing to justify barbarism itself, and I can use that same reasoning to justify the very acts of imperialism you are trying to criticize.

>>9243743
You are the other. I am the other. All of us are all others. Trying to understand "queers" is completely missing the point of what identity means. It's just another nu-marxist term that falls apart when you examine it too closely. It used to be the working class vs the bourgeoisie, now it's the oppressor vs the oppressed, the cis vs the other.

You're spending your time on fucking /lit/. That's just as unusual as wanting to be a girl. People are all unique. If "being a girl" is the one thing that defines who you are then you are just a sad piece of shit. It doesn't mean that you need to be studied any more closely than any other person because of how "uniquely unique" you are. It certainly doesn't merit its own academic field.

>>9236751
This is fucking stupid and wrong. Let me just point out that the Bolsheviks legalized abortion, homosexuality and getting divorced.

>>9240569
Dang she's cute :3

>>9244264
Ah, yes, the Bolsheviks, those wildly successful socialists.

>>9233052
go back to sucking Steven Bannon's dick it's all you'll be good at

>>9244324
>80 years of "communism" in USSR
>unsuccessful
woops

>>9232503
>>9232503
>>9232503

Dressing in drag and getting fucked by a dude.

>>9244095
>Trying to understand "queers" is completely missing the point of what identity means. It's just another nu-marxist term that falls apart when you examine it too closely.
t. guy who doesn't understand marxism

In all seriousness, though, every identity you listed is valid, and undergoes a unique set of experiences worth understanding. One dichotomy didn't surmount the other; they all contribute to different forms of inequality.

>You're spending your time on fucking /lit/. That's just as unusual as wanting to be a girl. People are all unique. If "being a girl" is the one thing that defines who you are then you are just a sad piece of shit. It doesn't mean that you need to be studied any more closely than any other person because of how "uniquely unique" you are. It certainly doesn't merit its own academic field.

It's not unusual- or unique-ness that begets a field, though — it's a widespread societal recognition of your identity. If /lit/posting became a major social phenomena and lead to massive cultural shifts, you bet we'd have a field of philosophy for that.

And none of this is inherent to a particular worldview. I'm a taxation-is-theft lolbertarian, but I can still appreciate that it's tough to be gay.

>>9245178
Due to Stalin, like it or don't. A highly conservative leader.

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>>9232666

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>>9245854

>>9232503
Can someone recommend me some good feminist theory without any "queer" stuff?

>>9232704
I will!

>>9232666

fuck yourself satan

>>9245869

farage is so badass

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOVT7hJOHNE

>>9245873
Stop being homophobic and transphobic.

>someone says the word "feminist"
>people fucking devour themselves in their frenzy to prove just how intellectually irrelevant it is

It doesn't matter for shit what side of the political fence you're on, everyone is an easily triggered bitch these days.

>>9232503
don't. women are whores. go marxist or acknowledge you're a neoliberal inundated of the spectacle qua the young girl

>>9244264
They banned those things again not even 20 years in. Only divorce stayed, but it was an upper-class thing and even in those circles it was frowned upon.

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>>9245277
I'm studying philosophy and english lit and this is the conclusion I've come to after reflecting on the feminist and marxist readings of all kinds of texts. Time and time again the thing that happens is that your "perspective" becomes so subjective that it leads you to come up with complete crackpot theories and character interpretations that conform to feminist or marxist ideology at all costs. Basically, you end up seeing what you yourself bring into the text and ignore anything that might contradict that view. Pure ideology.

If people are going to use death of the author as an excuse to completely ignore what's in a text and instead project their own bullshit onto it they're no longer doing literary analysis, which is evident when you consider that at that point they don't even need a text. They're just using it to make their own thoughts seem more important by connecting them to things that are already popular, like those pop philosophy books that deal with the deep meaning behind transformers 5.

>>9246307
I agree with this guy though. We should all take it easy. People calling eachother cucks and nazis all day makes discussion about these topics on public forums impossible at this point. No matter how reasonable you try to be, the other side will look for any excuse to look down on you and disregard what you are saying. If we want to have honest intellectual discussion we have to be willing to consider eachothers points instead of looking for cheap ways of ridiculing them to feel good about ourselves.

>>9245940
unironically, huh?

Instead first read some serious Marxists (Marx, Lukacs, Adorno) and then you can proceed into this pit of irrationalism called feminism (Althusser, Foucault, Deleuze, Butler).

>>9246596
>althusser
>feminism

go back to /pol/ you absolute fucking retard. Althusser embodies precisely the current of 20th century Structural Marxism that post-structuralist pomo feminism despises. Deleuze (more accurately Deleuze/Guattari, because Deleuze's solo work is hardcore ontology that is even less relevant to "this pit of irrationalism called feminism") is as irrelevant as Althusser. Butler is the only name you've listed that holds any relevance whatsoever to the type of feminist theory you're referring to and I'd bet my left testicle on your having only seen her name in a meme shitpost. You fucking idiot.

>>9245940
"transphobic", sure. but being bisexual, i'm pretty sure i'm not homophobic

>>9246694
Not him, but Althusser is important to read for queen theory, because Judith Butler draws quite heavily on his theory of interpellation.

There is some irony here given that Althusser strangled his wife to death.

>>9246727
Lol why did you post this? There's no way a discussion of any decency could start from this, pal

>>9245197
UNIRONICALLY
N
I
R
O
etc

All this feminist stuff proves that hysteria can also affect men. By "men" I mean the rat-men of Nick Land.

>>9232672
to be fair the marxist (the utopian crowd, not the pragmatic ones) posters are triggered in every thread. /pol/ makes an appearance only when they can understand what the thread is about, which is pretty much any ideology or person they've been redpilled on by whichever youtube celebrity they happen to be worshiping this week.

>>9246432
people don't ideas
ideas have people

>>9232707
nailed it

So much buttmad in this thread you'd think it was about Thomas Foster Joyce being a charlatan.

>>9246307
Well, that's because it's its intellectual relevance is abysmal.

>>9246761
i'm above decent discussion

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>>9232503
OP, THE ONLY REAL ANSWERS COMING THRU-

>Where do I start with feminist theory?
The Second Sex by Simone de Beauvoir

This is considered the starting point of second wave feminism i.e. feminist theory, as first wave feminism was purely concerned with the political status of women and second wave feminism is where feminists began to concentrate on social and cultural criticism. It's a long read, but if you actually stick it out, you'll know more about feminism than 99% of "feminists".

>Where do I start with queer theory?
The History of Sexuality, Vol 1: An Introduction by Michel Foucault
Most important and influential text for queer theory. The queer theorists writing by the time the term was introduced were all largely influenced by the ideas Foucault introduced in this small book.

BONUS: Gender Trouble by Judith Butler
Essential reading for both feminist and queer theory. Introduces the massively influential (and controversial) idea of "gender performativity".

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>>9247929
youre a cuck harry

>>9248013
This is a good post

I'd add The Dialectic of Sex by Shulamith Firestone

>>9235405
Are you sure you're bi? You write like a faggot