Comics

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Graphic novels have little to no place in the literature world. Fucking gene wolf scifags are a big enough cancer to this board already, please let's keep le literary comiques desu out of it

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>>8506096

>if your work isn't derivative tech of the gutenburg bible your readers are plebs

>>8506092
Hellboy and BPRD riff on Lovecraft and his ilk enjoyably.

Sandman plays with Greek and Norse myth, and Shakespeare.

Alan Moore's Swamp Thing has good writing in itself, ditto Watchmen. There are layers of meaning.

Charley's War looks at WW1 in gritty, sorry detail

Judge Dredd is informed by PKD and Orwell in its depiction of a fascist police state

But they all rely on the visual component or they would fall flat. Comics occupy the intriguing realm of the quasi-literary.

>>8506115
if your book needs art that isn't good enough to be art to bolster its writing that isn't good enough to be writing, your readers are plebs

>>8506283

if your readers learned to interpret the expressive elements of your work in a mandatory state childhood institution, you're a hack, your art was literally subsidized, and your readers are slaves

>>8506304
asking about the literary value of comics is at least on the border of relevant, but if you want to talk about comics AND you believe something like this about literature, you belong elsewhere

there is literally a board called "comics", here it is friend: >>>/co/

>>8506096
>wah I can appreciate art and more accessible forms and if they dont reference the Odyssey they're shit! abloo bloo bloo

>>8506578
omg I hate literature now
seriously, your silly opinions are on the back burner until the issue of why you've even still here is resolved

No. Comics are their own medium.

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>>8506625
>>8506168
OP here, I think these two are on the money...

It's sort of a loaded question. I think graphic novels have a place in the world of "graphic literature". It's a seperate entity, no matter how similar it is to traditional lit. It resembles film just as equally, and we don't see Maus or Watchmen on the curriculum in film courses.

>>8506283
As far as this sentiment is concerned, I'm not sure that I agree. I don't know how one determines that the narrative or thematic content of a comic isn't "literary enough" or it's visuals not "art enough". But I guess we're getting into objectivity in art on this one and that's a whole other can of worms...

But I think that I would point someone with this attitude towards Alan Moore or Chris Ware or even Frank Miller and suggest that their body of work would not be possible via any other medium due to the unique structure of comics, and that these stories would suffer accordingly if adapted to film or traditional literary fiction.

There are very few comics that attain the highest caliber of literary worth that merit the title of art. Sandman is often suggested, but the overall structure, dialogue, and writing are quite poor. Don't get me wrong, there are a few great issues, but on the whole it reads like intelligent fan-fiction. The Dark Knight Returns hits the highest value for both textual and visual aesthetic worth. the intrinsic political nature of the text, and complimentary perception inspired art fit perfectly as a satire of the medium of comics as a whole, while highlighting all of its myriad flaws and imperfections. Watchmen is another text that hits this bar of high merit. While the layered writing of Watchmen is better than that of TDKR, the visual content is extremely lacking; however, when considering that a traditional comics artist works on the project to further the irony and satirical element of the text, Watchmen may be viewed as art. Other works from Moore are equally worthy of this title, such as From Hell, V for Vendetta, and the latter part of Miracle Man. Swamp Thing is a very raw and rough example of Moore's creative process, and while the text does not hold up to the same degree as his other shorter works, the surprising heights that it reaches (particularly in the middle of its run)are quite incredible, and are a treat fro any Moore Enthusiast. The Killing Joke is a great comic book, done in an intelligent manner, though it does not reach the same thematic and symbolic depths as some of Moore's other work. Grant Morrison has produced some pretty great stuff (Doom Patrol, in paritcular), but his writing witnesses so little restraint, and is so immediate that consistency is a forgotten concept. I would certainly label aspects of his collective text art, but other aspects are equally degrading to the title, and showcase all of the bad qualities of the comics medium. The aesthetic and tone of Brian K Vaughn's work is terrific, and while it is lacking in other areas of artistic pursuit, Vaughn's works are better understood in the context of cinema (which he studied at NYU) rather than as an extension of the literary tradition. Warren Elliss writes terrific "comic books" in a manner that is ironic, innovative, and intelligent, as well as self-critical, but since their presence is so contained within the comics-medium, they hold very little aesthetic and thematic meaning for anyone no thoroughly aware of that culture, Planetary is probably his best work.
In summary there are definitely works in the comics medium that are worthwhile, and may be considered art, but they are on the whole limited.