/sffg/ - SciFi and Fantasy General

>>8018137
First for gay, rape and incest

>>8017997

It was Elantris actually for some points.

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DELET THIS!!!!!!

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Can anyone recommend a book featuring bloody violence and eroticism?

Preferably devoid of sjw pandering.

>>8018272
Sword of Truth to a point. Lots of sex and rape as well as killing the fuck out of tons of people

DELETE THIS

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Opinions on this? I was actually disappointed with the """"Goblins""""" and many other things but... I guess it's not bad.

>>8018288
Yeah, it's your archetypal "7/10 bretty gud".

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>I managed very little sleep that night, and Losi came closer to killing me than Felurian ever had. She was a delightful partner, every bit as wonderful as Felurian had been.

>But how could that be? I hear you ask. How could any mortal woman compare with Felurian?

>It is easier to understand if you think of it in terms of music. Sometimes a man enjoys a symphony. Elsetimes he finds a jig more suited to his taste. The same holds true for lovemaking. One type is suited to the deep cushions of a twilight forest glade. Another comes quite naturally tangled in the sheets of narrow beds upstairs in inns. Each woman is like an instrument, waiting to be learned, loved, and finely played, to have at last her own true music made.

>Some might take offense at this way of seeing things, not understanding how a trouper views his music. They might think I degrade women. They might consider me callous, or boorish, or crude.

>But those people do not understand love, or music, or me.

What did he mean by this?

Can someone recommend me a book where sci-fi is mixed with western? Something like the Firefly. Or maybe just good western?

>>8018337
I don't know what the world of Rothfuss' books is like but I doubt he really thought about whether a symphony would be possible there.

>>8018410
Haunted Mesa by Louis L'Amour
Girl in Landscape by Jonathan Lethem
The Half-Made World by Felix Gilman
Dark Tower series by Stephen King

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First for lists
every thread until it becomes a meme like wolfe and botns

>>8018509
>meme
At least some people actually like Wolfe (we've even got Absolute Aram), that's just your garden-variety shitty list.

>>8018503
>Haunted Mesa by Louis L'Amour
I enjoyed that, and I don't even like westerns.

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>>8018509
We memeing now? I'll post mine again, since it confuses everyone and I regret my organizational choices :3
Try to figure out what I did wrong before posting.

>>8018337
he means he's a beta who has to break the 4th wall and have Kvothe explain directly to the SJW masses why Patrick isn't one of those Bad Whites and is actually a Good White.

>>8018541
I don't know, I'm not knowledgeable and haven't read anything on your list... are those still good books to read?

>>8018337
How could anyone read that shit?

>>8018337
t. permavirgin

>>8018541
We should do this every thread fellow list connoisseur, these plebians don't understand the work we put into making these lists.

They(the grandpas and "only read old fantasy) dismiss mine off the bat because i have women protagonist and urban fantasy on the list, even though the random area has a shit load of goodies.

I wil finish this list one of these days.

>>8018337
Holy cringe... why do people recommend this guy again?

>>8018607
>women protagonist and urban fantasy
These things can be good though. Your list is shit because you've picked poor examples of them, and more than half of it is just crammed into "random" with no rhyme or reason.

>>8018607
I feel bad because I actually do like urban fantasy sometimes. Meany.

>>8018621
What does random mean?

I was going to make a meme list. It was going to have all the questions most frequently asked, but my autism wasn't up for the task, so i dumped everything in random.

If you run through random you will see it has recs cor the most frequently asked questions. I already got male/female urban fantasy and the gay, rape and incest down.

>>8018607
>They(the grandpas and "only read old fantasy) dismiss mine off the bat

Don't you have your own containment thread now? Stop shitting up the general.

>>8018567
Some of them. Pinata was supposed to mean that it was an intentionally mixed bag, but that may have been a poor choice of word.

>>8018607
>these plebians don't understand the work we put into making these lists.
Indeed, the OP should have another list category labeled /sffg/ Autism. There's two or three other lists floating around that should go there as well.
>I wil finish this list one of these days.
You have my support anon! I predominantly read old sff though :3

>>8018654
Why is it that elitists have come in our general?

Fed up of circle jerking about dfw and the like?
Before this general when I posted in lit for fantasy recs for years yall shitted on me, told me to go to co, a and b.

Now all of a sudden you are posting old as fuck boring shit books, calling people plebs who disagree with you and are slowly shiting up our general like how you shitted up lit. Get out fagget.

>>8018696
>Why is it that elitists have come in our general?
You realize that /lit/ is entirely elitists, right? /sffg/ itself has always been a little elitist, too. It's pretty much always looked down on urban fantasy, at least.

>>8018696
I am sorry that some prefer the fine prose of Dunsany, Peake, and Wolfe to that of Sanderson, Butcher, and their contemporaries.

>>8018710
>the most boisterous is the majority

Okay, "we" all look down on urban fantasy.

>>8018712
Kek, do you hear yourself? How much more superiority complex can you get?

>>8018509
It is useful as a list of books to avoid.

How does one handle memory loss well in a story, specifically magic-induced?

>>8018607
>the grandpas

Is this a version of the
>ITS 2016
>CURRENT YEAR!!!

>>8018607
Putting work into something doesn't necessitate it being good.

There strikes me as being two possibilities that explain your list:
1. You haven't read that broadly in fantasy, and are just listing every single example of something that fits a given category with no regard as to whether the work is good or not: if it fits, you list it. This would mean you misunderstood the fact that a list here is meant to be curated, with only the best examples and works represented. If someone just wanted a list of every single urban fantasy book with a female protagonist they could go on goodreads and find a list with five hundred books.
2. You have read broadly, but just have extremely bad taste.

Of course, I'm being narrow-minded. You could have not read broadly AND have extremely bad taste.

>>8018541
In contrast, I like this list because it's just so strange and compiles a bunch of works no one would have heard of otherwise. By your own admission, though, you didn't like a couple of these (as I recall from an earlier thread), which is why I wouldn't favor putting it in the OP which people tend to use to get recommendations of what to read.

Is Memory, Sorrow and Thorn any good?

>>8018815
No. There are literal grandpas who post here. Oldest I saw was 55. Some college profs even post here.

In lit that is, not sffg, who knows maybe they do post in here.

>>8018696
If you want to discuss shitty new books just go to r/fantasy.

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>>8018826
Read 600+ books all fantasy.

>>8018864
lol reading ont he computer

>>8018864
So, option 2. Glad that's settled.

>>8018860
I was here first(since 09) posting about fantasy, when everyone was riding brown bear's dick and shit posting ij.

I made my fantasy post then, and I will make them now. And there is nothing you can do about it.

Any more contemporary fantasy that tries to model itself on the form and style of old romances and epic poems?

Someone show me some modern, NON-EPIC fantasy with really good aesthetics. Please NON-EPIC only. I don't want any knights or bickering royals or dragons or middle-aged europe, NON-EPIC ONLY, and make it MODERN

>>8018868
>his list is on his computer
>therefore he reads "ont he computer"

>>8018860
Exactly. The whole point of /lit/ is the freedom to call out retarded plebians for their shit taste when necessary. On reddit, they would immediately shadow-ban you or some shit.

>>8018877

LOTR
ASOIAF

>>8018883

>Everyone who doesn't like only the books that I like is a plebean
>This entire genre or subgenre is shit because I don't like the books that are in it

>>8018884
pls no bully, I just just went through this shit on leddit and I'm too tired to deal with it

>>8018870
What would you suggest some for urban fantasy. That is a modern post 19th century world with shit like computers, reality tv and magic.

That list is the best of what I read that fits the bill, no one wants old dusty victorian novels labeled as "urban fantasy", I mean I guess you would suggest Little big or Jonathon strange and Mr Norrell wouldn't you?

>>8018864
I don't see Leiber or Vance on there... you should check them out if you haven't

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>>8018883
>your taste is shit because I said it's shit

>>8018877
Karin Tidbeck

I heard that Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser build up a loli harem in their stories. Is this true?

>>8018894
Neverwhere by Gaiman and Charles de Lint's Newford stuff. Why is The Magicians listed as Urban Fantasy, when it almost all takes place in the magical academy and pseudo-Narnia? If you stretched the subgenre to include that then it would encompass Harry Potter too, which clearly doesn't fit.

>>8018894
>I mean I guess you would suggest Little big or Jonathon strange and Mr Norrell wouldn't you?
Also, while I agree that those aren't what people want when they're looking for urban fantasy, I don't know why you'd be so dismissive of them (at least that's how your post reads) when they're a sight better than many of the things on your list.

>>8018897
Says the tard who uses "grandpa" as an insult.

>>8018914
Nope. I think the mouser bangs a loli (in appearance) sea witch of some kind, can't remember the details.

>>8018509
Just looking at those urban fantasy covers you can tell they're designed so urban fantasy readers can spot them easily.

>>8018914
The last book is full of 'dainty breasts' and has a teen lesbian bondage scene, but it's a lot less enjoyable than the earlier stories.

>>8018826
>which is why I wouldn't favor putting it in the OP which people tend to use to get recommendations of what to read.
I guess I'm rather indiscriminate with what I choose to read, though I favor 60s-80s sff. Since my books are chosen fairly randomly, I thought it would be fun to have a list of meme/odd categories from which to try one's luck. Granted most will not want to gamble real money on books they might dislike. Much of my eclectic recent reading history is entirely due to finding a good local source of cheap sff books. Those with a well stocked library could benefit without the pain of uncertain expenditure.

I can't enjoy anything I read anymore. I just keep finding weird discomfort or boredom with everything I look and and I just put it down and never care again.

Did I fuck up? have I run out of fiction to enjoy because I'm so damn picky? Or did I just enjoy those things because I wasn't depressed when I read them?

How does one write sex and nudity into their fantasy story without being too pandering? I want to include more adult themes, but I also don't want to alienate readers or just come off as a horny single guy (even though I am)

>>8019068
Read high-quality erotic fiction like "A Sport and a Pastime" by James Salter, so you know how it's done.

Is the Zelazny 'Amber' book that starts with the amnesiac MC with a royal family that can travel through parallel dimensions?

Holy shit I have never encountered a drier, boring book in my whole fucking life. Worst fucking recommendation ever.

>>8018895
Dying earth was shit(at least the first book i read) I'm not touching Vance, Delany, Tolkien or Conan again. Fuck you.

>>8018927
They may be better "literary", but not fantastically, which is what people want.

Nothing faster to dissuade someone from reading, than to give them boring old books that rely on prose to get the story across.
Not everyone is an English major who prematurely ejaculates when they read deep prose.
You want someone to enjoy reading? Give them fun books and they will mature on their own.

I hope you are not one of "those" guys who is going to force their 5 year old children to "like" deep works, only ensure they dislike reading for the rest of their lives.

>>8019058
existential boredom =>>> do something with your life

>>8019058
Same answer when you asked this question 4 threads ago, get the fuck out.

>>8019194
My god you're unlikable. I bet people actively try to avoid interacting with you at your work/school/whatever.

>>8018337
This series is the best whether you want some Mary Sue wish fulfillment wanking or literal wanking.

I actually feel bad for this guy. His fans are obviously contributing to his mental illness.

>>8019203
Actually they like to sit on my lap at work and rub my chest, but I think that has to do with the fact I keep my mouth shut.

They think I'm a quirky chad, boy how I would ruin their perception if I open my mouth.

>>8019218
The girl that you would love, the girl that would love you, was put off by your false demeanor and you will never have the opportunity to see her again. Don't be too sad though, your life will forever be full of pleb sluts that you will talk nice to while thinking about how utterly dull and retarded they are. It's not a bad life.

>>8019202
I just want to feel again. 8(

>>8019058
Psychfag here. If you know that you have depression, it's very likely that is what's causing you to not enjoy your stories anymore. One of the signs of depression is a loss of enjoyment of previously enjoyable activities, as well as difficulty in caring about things. On that note, if you're not sure if you have depression, you might want to get that checked out.

>>8019305
Are you sure?

I think it's just because all the authors in the 21st century are just untalented hacks incapable of anything worthwhile.

>>8018877
>with really good aesthetics.
Are you some sort of faggot? Only homosexuals care about aesthetics above ethics.

>>8019314
>boredom
>never caring again
Not too sure, but it's a possibility. I'd have to know more to really be able to tell. Do you have a hard time enjoying things in general nowadays? Do you have much motivation to do relatively normal activities? Are you more tired than usual and/or has your sleep schedule been fucked recently?
Also, how long has it been since you stopped enjoying reading?

>>8019319
no, I'm just a raging autist whose mind floods with new ideas in response to imagined sensory input

>>8019194
>Nothing faster to dissuade someone from reading, than to give them boring old books that rely on prose to get the story across.
As opposed to verse?

>>8019339
I use prose in the sense that elitist use it. You masturbate to Tolkien's prose and call Sanderson's prose shit

>>8019058
Sometimes I get sick of 'immersive' fiction where you're supposed to pretend the narration is invisible. Switching to poetry or taking a break from reading for a while can help, as can finding something which asks more from the reader.

>>8019339
>>8019194
I can attest to this. I hate so many classics because they take an entire Goddam page to describe a person walking up a flight of stairs. I don't mind lengthy descriptions, and in certain cases, a complex, almost poetic description works wonderfully when describing certain scenes. But when it's been three pages pages and you aren't sure if the characters in a story even remotely exist, it's exhausting. Especially when a paragraph is actually just one, long, drawn-out sentence. Those descriptions have their place and most ideal uses, but when an author describes the mundane task of filling a glass of water as if it were the turning point of a man's life, it gets exhausting to read.
That said, it's fine to like it, but telling people they aren't refined and that their taste is shit because their attention span doesn't last a hundred years is snobbish and makes you a prude.

>>8019347
Not him but Sanderson's is pretty shit though.

>>8019347
Does Sanderson not "rely on prose to get the story across"? You don't seem to understand what the word "prose" means.

>>8019352
>snobbish
>prudes
inb4 wheredoyouthinkyouare.jpeg

>>8019352
You are conflating 'good prose' with 'ornate prose'. They have nothing to do with each other.

>>8018541
Did they mean for the cover of flight of the dragonfly to look like dick and balls??

>>8019364
Which is what >>8019347 was referring to, I had gathered. People going off on how books that exclusively use long, drawn out descriptions of a blank sheet of paper is somehow more superior to books that have "On the table rested an blank, white sheet of paper."

>>8019347
Some people who read a lot of epic fantasy find Sanderson dull, it's not just 'elitists'

>>8019366
Let's not make up stories about how words are used.

The notion that "elitists" misuse a common word is, by definition, an absurdity. The reality is that YOU are misusing the word, perhaps as a coping mechanism to deal with your own insecurities.

Prose is a form a of writing that lacks the metrical structure of verse. That's all it is. There is no value judgment inherent in use of the term.

When someone refers to one or more sentences of prose as "shit", he is suggesting that the quality of the writing exhibited in those sentences is of inferior quality, regardless of the ideas or content they express.

This really should not be a difficult concept to grasp for people with IQs above 76.

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>>8018272
In Bands of Mourning, a guy falls from such a high distance that his body completely breaks, in a bloody mess.
The same guy fucks a not-human sentient creature.

>>8019392
>insecurities
>implying people can't use the word "prose" and mean "ornate prose" when complaining about people that whine about prose
>implying the people here complaining about "muh prose" /really/ judge prose in any form based on quality, instead of it not being ridiculously complex and overly complicated enough to sate their pretentious big-headedness
>Oh ho ho ho, you are but of simple mind, foolish anon
>I can hear the dick in your mouth from here, holy shit
There's a reason people /only/ ever say "This prose is shit" but never actually offer a critique. It's always "This is shit because it's shit." Every so often you'll get someone making a strawman argument to defend why they think something is bad, but there's never any actual substance to their arguments. They're just complaining because "Oh, this isn't intellectually stimulating enough for so clever an individual such as I."

>>8019194
"old books that rely on prose to get the story across"
Do you even know what prose means?

Lengthy descriptions =! good prose.

If a book relies on a good plot to carry the story but has clunky prose, it's like a car crash, it's ugly but you can't look away because it's interesting.
On the other hand a book with good prose that may have a shit plot is like some 10/10 supermodel, she may not be very interesting but you can't look away because you're admiring her beauty.

Good prose just mean that the sentences are pleasant to read, it flows nicely/natural.

>>8019423
The problem is that people equate good prose with good overall quality. There's also the fact that people think good prose is anything that's long and drawn out.

>>8019421
It's because Sanderson's prose really is shit. If you had any kind of literary education (not to mention common sense) you would understand that.

And the reason Sanderson's prose is shit has nothing to do with the level of ornamentation or complexity. There are many fine prose stylists who write in a spare, lucid, elegant fashion - e.g., Evelyn Waugh, H. G. Wells, J. L. Borges, George Orwell, etc.

Just because you're unable to recognize clunky sentences doesn't mean they don't exist. You are like a tone deaf person who thinks the notion of "singing off key" is a myth promulgated by musical elitists.

>>8019451
>it's shit because if you knew it was shit you would know it was shit
Okay

>>8019451
>If you had any kind of literary education (not to mention common sense) you would understand that
Thanks for proving my point

>>8019094
I mean more along the lines of stuff like characters getting dressed and nonsexual nudity. My stories revolve exclusively around female characters because reasons, and I'm never 100% sure how to write female nudity (such as bathing or getting changed) without it seeming like I'm just doing it to be sexy.

If you read "Urban fantasy" you need to kill yourself desu

>>8018864
Fuck off with your shitty audio books

I'm a third way through The Black Prism
Is it good? What do I think about it?

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>>8019688

>>8018137
Ok why the fuck do we have two of these and one fantasy general?

>>8019697
Because
>>8010109
Is cancerous
>>8005960
Got created by retards and has now hit the bump limit.

>>8019166
Jesus Christ what a fucking retard you are.
I'm stunned by the amazing stupidity and incredibly awful taste some of people here have.
To read so much absolute fucking garbage and look for more and then get a glimpse of something better and frown upon it because it doesn't have a simple enough language for your limited brain to understand.

>Awful taste

Opinions are facts now and objectively measurable as being good or bad

>>8019688
You quite like it. Better than his first series and compares favourably to Sanderson who is one of your favourite authors.

>>8019778

I don't have a favourite author but thanks for telling me what I think of the book so far.
What do I think about the author?

>>8019746
Yes, didn't you know? There's a reason why books survive the test of time if they are objectively good.

>>8017543
i've only read a bit of cat valente's "girl who circumnavigated fairyland" but her prose seems pretty great

>>8018877
>Doesn't want knights, royals, or middle ages
>he doesn't understand that they are commonly understood and accepted archetypes to be used in a story

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what is /sffg/'s opinion of dees book?

>>8019729
*tips*

>>8020240
*shit tastes*

>>8020256
Thanks master. Your tastes are objectively good, and speak for the entire world. Whoever disagrees with you is scum not worth noticing.

I will go read Infinite Jest now, and build up my tennis fetish.

>>8020262
>Your tastes are objectively good, and speak for the entire world.
Some of the works I like are objectively good.
Almost everything you like is objectively absolute drivel.
>Whoever disagrees with you is scum not worth noticing.
Not everyone, but your taste is that of scum worth nothing.
>I will go read Infinite Jest now, and build up my tennis fetish.
You shouldn't, there are thousands of novels better than it.
But considering you are only into instant gratification, none will make a good read.

Where do I start with Vance? I want to see if he is worth the shitposting

>>8020279
Not Dying Earth.

>>8019729
Kek. If you faggot cucks think you will have me lead a dreary shell of a life by reading your boring shit books with shit tates you got another thing coming.
That anon was right you guys are pretentious faggots wannabes.

>>8020279
There is a collection of works called Jack Vance Treasury, maybe with that.
>>8020375
Few things are as exciting as sex or discussion on weather essence precedes existence. But people who read boring trash like Sanderson wouldn't know.

Can we just ban anyone posting urban fantasy? It's obviously some girl from reddit who doesn't read good books and rubs her clit to the ebin urban fantasy. Not what books are for!

>>8020279
Read Moon Moth. It's a novella and easily available online.

It's also included in the Treasury another Anon kindly pointed out, but I find that collection a little weird, given how it takes parts of the Dying Earth sequence into it as well. Not that it's bad, mind you.

>>8019365
I had the same thought.

>>8020464
>ban Dresden Files
>a book discussed here for years
>showing his newness
We should ban trump posters but that isn't going to happen, so you think mods are going to ban actual ontopic posts when there are so few?

>>8020626
DF is pretty awful.

>>8020633
Yet it has been discussed here for 6+ years.

Anytime a new book is out you see 10+ threads about it, and this was before god moot increased page count from 10 to 15.

The "ebin reddit girls" as you put it were here for years, they just hide in the woodworks and comes out when it starts raining (new Dresden release).

>>8020662
>it's popular thus it's good! argument
And just because one is doesn't mean that all the other dozens of trash are suddenly accepted.

>>8020698
>it's unpopular thus it's good! argument
Same shit can be said about what you like.
I don't get why people here fight each other over tastes and likes. If someone eats shit why should you lower yourself to their level to tell them that shit is bad? Just ignore

I'm out, this thread is depressing, just came to post that lit posted about urban fantasy before this eyesore of a general became a mainstay on the front page and it's probably going to continue long after this shitfest has gone.

Enjoy your memes and shitposts.

>>8020756
>I'm out
And thus the quality of the thread increased.

>>8020768
Actually true

>>8019339
>As opposed to verse?
I'd actually pay real money to read epic fantasy in verse. Someone please make this a thing already!

>>8020800
Iliad?

>>8020803
This and the Poetic Edda

>>8020800
>>8020803
>>8020819
...Beowulf

>>8020839
>>8020819
>>8020803
I mean modern epic poems written by contemporaries, but thanks anyways.

>>8018337
That series should be called Ode to Friendzone

>>8020871
you may find something interesting here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_poetry#21st_century also 20 century

by what they call verse nowadays is usually a bunch of shit

>>8019990
Just because they are accepted doesn't mean everyone wants to read them all the time retard

>>8018337

>I spanked her tight teenage butt till it was bright red, and she blushed

t. Summary of all heinlien books

Anybody able to recommend a good sword & sorcery series that has been released either as a set or at least all published by one company with decent covers so I can buy them all at once and read my way through?

>>8018712

>Wolfe
>fine prose

T O P
K E K
L A D
W E W

>>8021139
>either as a set or at least all published by one company with decent covers
Are you mentally disabled?

>>8021139
Did you read the usual recommendations here or do I really have to repeat the 4 big sword and sorcery series?

>>8020279

The Jack Vance Treasury does have some good stories.

I would start with the Eyes of the Overworld, though.

Vance has beautiful writing, bizzare ideas, and a great sense of humor.

>>8020626

But Dresde files is absolute trash

>>8021143
Yeah, I did. My grandfather has a bunch of Conan books I intend to borrow next time I see him. I'm already halfway through the Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser books. No real interest in Elric.

>>8021156
Amber? There is an omnibus with all 10.

>>8021140
>you
>good troller
Wew lad!

>>8021139

Conan barbare
Fafhrd et Mouser gris
Elric de Melnibone
La Princess de Mars
"Dying Earth" livres
Le Hobbit

>>8021139
First Law

>>8021220
Do not talk about /lit/?

>>8021139
Wait, so you want some specific editions?

Wandering Star did a three volume set for Conan. Del Rey did the more affordable trade editions of the same books. Gollancz also did a two-volume set in their Fantasy Masterworks line, and a one volume omnibus later on.

Night Shade Books did a two-volume set for Kane. Centipede Press just recently put out a five volume set of the same stuff.

Millennium published Moorcock's Eternal Champion stuff in similar looking editions.

Leiber I don't know. I think White Wolf did a set of Lankhmar books?

Centipede will be doing an Elric set in the coming years, and I think a Lankhmar set too. But they will be pricey.

After reading The Orphan's Tales I really want to read some of Catherine Valente's other works but her narrative voice in Radiance and Speakeasy makes it too hard to enjoy.

Looking for a good audiobook.

Any recommendations?

>>8021325
>>>/mu/

audiobooks are not literature

>>8021325
Gormenghast narrator is pretty gud

>>8021423
>/mu/
Yeah, that lot would give helpful replies.

>>8021423

>orally spoken stories are not stories
>when a parent reads to their kids its music, not a story
>when a storyteller tells a story it is music, not a story

Retard

Vance's writing is... interesting to say the least

>>8021464
Literature is not about "stories", moron.

>>8021533
Not that anon, but what's it about? Please, tell me.

>>8021533
Go on then, what is it about?

>>8021533

Literature is nothing but stories

>>8021533
Maybe, but it doesn't follow that telling a story is literally music. You fucking idiot.

>>8021533

This must be bait

>>8021533
It's about language, which a big part of is being spoken.

>that one setting thats perfect in your head but always shit on paper
what's her name /sffg/

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>>8020086
Pretty YOOOOOOOO tier. Introduces some neat concepts.

What's the best Conan edition/collection?

>>8021864
The best is not reading that dated shit.

What's the sci-fi equivalent to S&S and where should I start with it?

>>8021868
>dated
Okay, then. What's the best current, hip sword-and-sorcery fantasy? Because it seems to be 99% epic "look how detailed my world is" JRRT and/or GRRM ripoff fantasy.

>>8021870
Jack Vance sf works maybe?
>>8021882
Don't respond to the dated anon, he's just fucking retarded

>>8021889
>Don't respond to the dated anon, he's just fucking retarded
I was still gonna get Conan, but hoped I could also squeeze a recommendation out of 'em.

>>8021894
What kind of a rec from a moron would serve you anything honestly?

>>8021927
Good point.

>>8021932
Since sword and sorcery is characterized by a very fast plot and hero like characters, I am unfamiliar with anything like that in science fiction. The closest thing would be military sf, but none of it is something I'd count to be as good as the famous sword and sorcery.
Hyperion has a bunch of characters who each get their own reasonably well done arc and it's the closest rec I can give you.
Sf as just simple space adventure to my knowledge doesn't have many representatives, outside Vance, who is blurring the line anyway.

>>8021932
Oh shit, I forgot, but Stars, My Destination is pretty close to sas

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>>8021959
>Since sword and sorcery is characterized by a very fast plot and hero like characters
That sounds like the Stainless Steel Rat series to me. A most delightful romp.

>>8022076
So, I'm >>8021870 and this is almost exactly what I was looking for. I read a couple of the Stainless Steel Rat books as a kid and then forgot they existed. Thank you!
>>8022054
I'll check that out too.

>>8021864

Tower of the Elephant
Red Nails
Beyond the Black River
Queen of the Black Coast

Those are my favorites

>>8022253
I appreciate this, but I was actually asking what version/collection of the whole series is the best, since it's been re-published and compiled several times.

>>8022270
The three Del Rey books are probably th best you can get. The Coming of Conan the Cimmerian, The Conquering Sword of Conan, and The Bloody Crown of Conan.

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>>8021870

Le scifi équivalant à épée & sorcelrie est épée & planète

:)

"A Princess of Mars" by ER BURROUGHS is the iconic example of sword & planet.

VANCE's "Morrieon" aussie

:)

SUGGESTIONS FOR THREAD HEADER:

Replace the blood of elves with the last wish in the general fantasy image

>>8021543
>>8021546
Literature = written material with aesthetic value.

>>8021549
Nope, you are thinking of storytelling. Storytelling = the telling of stories. Storytelling has nothing to do with literature, which is oriented to the medium not the message.

>>8021581
You must be an illiterate dumbfuck.

>>8022322
what is this negro logic

Can someone recommend some good dystopian stuff ? I've read a lot of Ballard, PKD, Gibson, and Brunner etc, would like more of the same thx.

>>8022343
Why are you posting on /lit/ if you have no idea what literature is.

>>8022322
>>8022402

You must be 18 to post on 4chan

MODS

>>8022400
The Iron Heel (1908) by Jack London
The Machine Stops (1909) by E. M. Forster
R.U.R.: Rossums's Universal Robots (1921) by Karel Čapek
We (1921) by Yevgeny Zamyatin
It Can't Happen Here (1935) by Sinclair Lewis
Earth Abides (1949) by George R. Stewart
The Chrysalids (1955) by John Wyndham
Alas, Babylon (1959) by Pat Frank
Make Room! Make Room! (1966) by Harry Harrison
Camp Concentration (1968) by Thomas M. Disch
The Lathe of Heaven (1971) by Ursula K. Le Guin
334 (1972) by Thomas M. Disch
The Dispossesed (1974) by Ursula K. Le Guin
Riddley Walker (1980) by Russell Hoban
Lanark: A Life in Four Books (1981) by Alasdair Gray
Moscow 2042 (1986) by Vladimir Voynovich
The Children of Men (1992) by P.D. James
Parable of the Sower (1993) by Octavia E. Butler
The Diamond Age (1994) by Neal Stephenson
The Windup Girl (2009) by Paolo Bacigalupi

How does one create a story that is not just a story, but a building block that gets referenced so often it's not even a reference anymore

Alice of course is the prime example

>>8022541
Make everything vague enough that it could be symbolic of anything, and watch the academics fight it out for the next hundred years.

>>8018137
Why no steampunk love?

>>8022694
Oh, so you're THAT guy.

>>8022721
What's good? Moorcock, maybe Sterling & Gibson?

>>8022721
THERE'S NOTHING "PUNK" ABOUT THE VICTORIANS REEEEEEEE

*ahem*. Sorry. Personal bugbear.

>>8022694
Libertarian socialism and Marxian socialism have been separate, competing schools from the very beginning, even if they have influenced one another at times. LeGuin is far from Marxist propaganda.

Marx was also an anti-Semite despite his own Jewish heritage, so there's that.

>>8022826
Ignore the /pol/fags. Anything that isn't right wing is jJdeo-Bolshevik liberal Marxism to them.

I have a question...what the HELL happened to Larry Niven with the Ringworld books? It's a pain to work through Ringworld Throne.

>>8022835

imo the only readable ringworld book it's the original one which ends when they all except the main hero's cocksleeve leave the ringworld

all the other ones are an utter crap

>>8022835
>Ringworld Throne
That's the one with the sex vampires, isn't it?

>>8022888
Yes, it's all about sex. And vampires. Protector and the first two Ringworld books were good but this is complete nonsense.

I read the Fleet of World books and I'm befuddled as to how Niven fell off the page.

>>8022442
The wind up girl sure looks lonely amongst all those dated books.

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>>8022914
Yeah, I was.... nonplussed.

I forgot to post this gem in the "Furries in Space" edition we had :3 (Niven's Man-Kzin Wars shared universe)
>Following a Kzinti attack, a lone civilian is stranded on a distant planet, in what appears to be an alien zoo. His only companions are two female Kzin who, to his surprise, turn out to be as sentient (a trait that's been bred out of modern Kzin females).

Grand total of 40 keks

>>8022835
I really think Larry Niven experienced a major head injury some time in the '70s. He seems to have lost the capacity to write intelligibly in English.

>>8023157
Besides Ringworld, what else has he written that was any good?

Winds of Winter THIS MONTH!!!

>>8023162
oh, he wrote a lot of good stuff

i especially like his short story 'cloak of anarchy'

Is Rothfuss a virgin?
Why can't he write proper female characters?

>>8023162
"The Mote in God's Eye" with Jerry Pournelle - and that's basically it.

Everything else I've read by Niven has been utter shit.

>>8023175
the magical act of losing male virginity gifts one the ability to write proper girl characters?

>>8023175
Well he's got a kid, so almost certainly not. Which makes it even weirder that he hasn't got better at it in recent works.

>>8023191
How do we know that his kid is the product of his own seed though?

>>8023199
it doesn't matter if it's his kid or not, but if didn't have sex with that girl at all he probably would have some suspicions that it's not his kid

>>8023199

Why would that be important for anyone?

>>8023199
Wait to see if it gets fat and sprouts a chin shrub

>>8023162
The Flying Sorcerers was kinda funky. I didn't know about all the in-jokes when I read it though.

Anybody else here REALLY like Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser?

>>8023222
I read the first Fafhrd story and really liked it.

Also, trips for truth.

Wait so Dazen imprisoned Gavin and now Dazen is Gavin?
I can't even

>>8023233

Wasn't Dazen the bad guy? But fake Gavin is a good guy so far??
Wtf is going on

>>8023222
It was meh. Nothing special. On the level of Abercrombie and Weeks I'd say (although Leiber's vocabulary is bigger, I'll give him that much)

>>8023253
Abercrombie is a tryhard GRRM knockoff. Entertaining enough, but I wouldn't put his work anywhere near Leiber. I think Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser are more interesting characters, and their friendship has a greater impact, than anything in Abercrombie's stuff. Not to mention that Leiber was writing at the same time as Tolkien.

Haven't read Weeks.

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>>8021325
>>8021423
Capped for posterity's sake

>>8021464

Well technically, you COULD, by stretching some meanings, say that Graphic Audio productions are musicals, and therefore music.

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Are the John Carter of Mars books any good? I saw the movie and actually enjoyed it, so I was wondering if the books were worth checking out

>>8021073
Yes it does, faggot, now go read Once and Future King and get a gym membership.

>>8019787
Deep non-sexual longing for companionship.

You're really bad at being a troll, you know that?

>>8023365
they are very sexist books
girls lay eggs there, including the john carter's gf and are supposed to be protected by men

Should I read American Gods if I like the concept but physically cringe at the main character's name?

>>8023413
>they are very sexist books
I take it you've never read the books. Sola was a total badass.

>>8023441
sola was a woman who was taught to serve men which she did

>>8023413
Do the guys cum on the eggs to fertilise them?

>>8023446
So just like real life for 99% of history everywhere? Fucking retard.
>>8023437
You'll lose nothing by not reading them.
>>8023253
Abercrombie is a weaker writer in every regard. There's nothing he does even remotely as good.
For one Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser has characters who don't speak as if they were 21st century Englishmen.
The prose is day and night, Leiber actually has fucking descriptions of things. His world is alive and has imagination. It breaths with history and flavor.
He wrote people and not caricatures.
Abercrombie is a knockoff Martin as the other anon said, and a bad one. A crap version of an already inferior writer.

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>it's a Siri chapter

>>8023463
honestly i'm not sure

i suspect that such a version of sexual life with his wife wouldn't really satisfy john carter... and he managed to conceive a son

>>8023519

Which one was she?
The cunt with the god king was annoying and I hated her chapters

>>8023525
my opinion > your opinion

>>8023509
I need to read something though, and I can't find anything I like lately.

I'm going to be forcing my way through Radiance by catherine valente in a bit because there are only a finite number of books out there that meet my ridiculously strict criteria and I need to branch out with an author I trust

>>8022322
Iliad and Odyssey are just written down narrations and poetry in general is often meant to be read out loud.
There is something you could say on the subject of audio being a different thing from reading, but this is just stupid.
>>8023191
Don't ever talk about Rothfuss's wife son like that ever again.

>>8023535
Unless you've read like 5k novels it's literally impossible to be out of reading material.
Is it so hard to go to a used book store and pick up 5 titles by classical authors at random?

>>8023544
the problem is, as I said before, extreme pickiness of the kind only autism can cause

of the ten most recent books on my kindle I have dropped 5 of them. That does not include the two I returned in the past 24 hours. The criteria I consider for books are fucking ridiculous and includes aesthetic, the climate location and time period of the setting, the cover, the writing style, the concept, the genre and sub-genre, can't be billed as a romance or YA and if it's over 20 years old I probably won't consider it due to an alarming amount of "old" scifi and fantasy I despised as a child

Lord Dunsany's full length novels sound boring and his short story collections seem to be full of 1-2 page vignettes. Does he have anything decent in between, size-wise?

>>8023575
>2 decades is old
You're not going to get any sympathy low functioning autist.

>>8023595
dude, not cool. Low functioning autists are functionally indistinguishable from animals, mid-functioning are effectively retards with communication problems, and high-functioning can be anywhere from Gregory House to Chris-Chan.

And yes, I know 20 years old isn't "old" but from my perspective it's almost an entire lifetime ago. I don't think I had object permanence 20 years ago.

Hey guys, what's a good book with some swords and magic and adventures?

>>8023627
virginia woolf, 'orlando'

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>>8021864
Wandering Star.

>>8023627
Most high and epic fantasy is like that, which is coincidentally all the fantasy the people here know.

If you want some stuff that's not going to be recommended because of this generals dinosaur taste, try these:

>The Grace of Kings
imagine an asian game of thrones, but somehow Sokka from Avatar The Last Airbender ended up in the middle of it
>The Throne of the Crescent Moon
a short bit of arabian epic fantasy where the main character is just an old man who wants to retire and drink tea all day but instead he has to wrangle a sexually repressed paladin and a bedouin girl who can turn into a lion while the kingdom is falling apart around him

>>8023658
What? Almost all recommended books here are all deep epic edgy dark political intrigue shit.

Almost no good old dungeon crawling and adventuring.

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>>8023658
>a bedouin girl who can turn into a lion


strong independent girls who read high fantasy want somebody to associate themselves with!

also it's pretty funny that the girl turns into a lion, not a lioness

just finished Hyperion, was pretty good for the most part, should I continue on in the series or read something new

>>8023727
Read 'Fall of Hyperion" and then stop. Or stop now if you don't care how the story ends.

Question on _The Once and Future King_:

I just found out about _The Book of Merlyn_, is this book necessary and recommended to read?

Question on _The Book of the New Sun_:

Same as above, should I read _The Urth of the New Sun_?

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>>8023727
>>8023738
I have to say that I'm on book 4 of the Hyperion Cantos and it went full fucking retard after book 3. Book 2 was only marginally worse than 1 and it was still quite good.

I guess the plot is entertaining in a Star Wars and YA way. What the fuck.

>>8023754
What are some books like Shinsekai Yori?

>>8023757
I already gave you the only one I could think of anon.

I just read Dune up to Children of Dune. How are the rest of the books? I heard Brian Herbert's books are worse than the ones Frank wrote.

>2 decades is too old to read.

>>8023249
>>8023233

I don't know

>>8023788
God Emperor and Heretics are OK. Do not under any circumstances read anything written by his son.

>>8023795
Autism or OCD or just massive pleb

I'm two thirds of the way through The Black Prism.
Do I want to keep reading?

>>8023868
I don't know, do you?

>>8022442
thanks for these anon !

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>about to start Vacuum Diagrams
What am I in for? This is my first Xeelee anything.

>Damn. Did the poem ever actually say that Kassad was dead?
>“Uncle Martin had to fake parts of the tale, you know,” said Aenea. “He had some descriptions from Rachel, but he took poetic license on the parts he did not understand.”
WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS FANFICTION TIER SHIT

>>8022442
>Moscow 2042 (1986) by Vladimir Voynovich
that's a literal political satire about the soviet union which was outdated in like half a dozen years after it was written; at least you could suggest pelevin's 'day of the oprichnik' if you like crap like that

>>8023884

I don't know, could you tell me?

>>8024093
No, I can't read for you

>>8024105

You're not being very cooperative.

What's the best stuff from the last 20 year?
Preferably newer since I don't like old stuff

>>8024193
Why? And what "old" stuff have you read?

>>8024196
Some of the recommendations in OP

>>8024202
Which, and again, why?

>>8024207
They were too old.

>>8024211
2/10

What are the chances for Cleganebowl to happen in Winds of Winter?

>>8024214
Dude, I don't want fucking archaic language in the novels I read.

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>>8023928
Ok I finished this fucking Endymion Rising book.

I think that the first two Hyperion books did a great fucking job at making a compelling story that made me shit the bed at the thought of Shrike-sama stalking me and coming to impale me on that fucking Tree of Pain in the middle of the night and also the Cruciform body horror with the mental retardation was exceptionally horrifying to behold.

The first couple of books were also really good at fleshing out the characters. All of them started out pretty fucking bland ass but each one of the stories was excellent especially Sol's which made me cry like a baby - great suffering and creepy atmosphere.

What I hate about the Endymion trilogy:
>The fact that the Consul and Brawne just go and die for no reason whatsoever
>Keats never returns
>The fact that Martin, Kassad and Rachel just gets dragged into the Endymion trilogy as an afterthought
>The fact that Martin has completely forgotten about his time getting impaled by Shrike-sama and now just feels fit to crack jokes about this shit all the time
>The fact that everyone including the Shrike has forgotten about the Tree of Pain, whatever it was supposed to do and 'now we're just going to name the Yggdrasil after it to make sure that the timelines don't explode
>Raul. What the fuck is this bland ass? Why didn't he just die?
>Hoyt should kill himself
>Aenea. Only her death/when she goes full martyr saves it. But she's also good when she's a cute loli with a badass Shrike.

But seriously, I liked:

>The fact that out of nowhere the Shrike has become this fluffy cute domesticated puppy that follows Aenea around. It's almost like he/it gets accepted into the family. Adorable. Awwww.
>The moment when the Shrike is standing at Martin's grave but it's a shadow of that moment when he tells Martin that it's his 'time to go' and impales him
>De Soya. tfw he will never be MC. He's a based bro.
/spoiler]

>>8024220
Ok? To get help you need to be able to answer normal questions.

>>8024221
>trilogy
Please ignore this typo.

>>8024225
Just the best recent novels.
Preferably in the 2010s.
No YA or anything tagged with romance

Any great books with little girl protagonists?

>>8024229
There aren't any, sorry.

>>8024235
There have been novels released in the 10s.
So obviously there must be a best.

>>8024239
Nope.

>>8024220
Go back to /a/, you astonishing moron.

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>>8024239
Pic related.

>>8024239
Embassytown.

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>>8024225
>inb4 Dec 2009
You should read this novel. It's a great dystopian novel with /sci/ approved worldbuilding. Main theme of the novel is a society where social advancement is based upon colours.

The best part is when the road begins absorbing human corpses.

What is better and more satisfying, possibly also finished, than A Song of Ice and Fire?
Just don't give me some substandard 20-book cycles while claiming ASoIaF isn't good, it fucking is good, rich and enjoyable as fuck, more so than most of these popular fantasy stuff I've read so far. Is Malazan good? Book of the new sun?

>>8018852
>Is Memory, Sorrow and Thorn any good?

Loved them when I was 20 or something. Pretty good Lotr pastiche with a more grounded feel to it, I genuinely cared for almost all of the charakters. Williams is currently writing new Osten Ard books and I look forward to visit it again. People don't seem to care much for him but I think he's a pretty solid dude. I liked Otherland as well.

>>8024251
Meant for
>>8024229

>>8024255
Yeah Malazan is good if you can get through the first book.

>>8024255
Gene Wolfe is great.

First Malazan novel is shit, rest is better

>>8024263
>Gene Wolfe wrote his first novel at like 40+
there's still hope I'll win Hugo, Nebula or WFA someday ;_;

>>8024270
Other "old" authors who started writing "big" late include Bukowski, Burroughs, Bram Stoker

All you need is a B-sounding letter in your name

>>8024255
>it fucking is good, rich and enjoyable as fuck
Go back to /tv/, shit-for-brains.

Is Berserk the pinnacle of fantasy? Will there ever be a book to top it?

>>8024280
But ASoIaF could legitimately be the best epic fantasy out there, except obviously LOTR. No other series are so subtle, intelligent, yet full of great characters and the ever changing world. TV show totally ruined their perception in the public.
You, of course, obviously didn't read asoiaf.

>>8024291
TV show is superior and cuts the boring parts 2bh. It's pretty bad as a novel.

>>8024291
>subtle
Nothing subtle about it.

>intelligent
Come on

You're entitled to have your opinions but I call out on shit.

Malazan is better if you want pure epic fantasy, but it has it's own shortcoming.
Notably a bad first book and book 2 starting slow.

ASOIAF isn't his best work any way.

>>8024291
"best epic fantasy series" is like "best teen paranormal romance series".

>>8024229
No, you are essentially explicitly looking for YA or something generally written for retards.
>>8024250
Dude the language is like archaic and shit
>>8024291
Most of these things aren't true really.
It can't be called intelligent since it's a complete mess, there is nothing subtle about it and the prose is more often than not completely pedestrian.
And competition within specific subgenres is really silly. It's a mediocre series of novels which drop in quality significantly as the series progresses.

>>8024303
>want pure epic fantasy
Should have put an asterisk.
Because "epic fantasy" is pretty shallow.

There are way better novels out there.

>inb4 I want muh super long series

>>8024287
I know it's bait, but it's significantly worse than many trash tier novels like First Law.

>>8024330
Oh look, a contrarian.

>>8024287
I actually enjoyed this until the Golden Age arc ended. It's just way too much Monster of the Week tier story telling with grimdark edge.

>>8024251
Endorsing this rec

>>8024336
Having a common opinion because one actually holds it is not being contrarian.
And calling someone contrarian doesn't actually mean anything, outside of proclaiming "my opinion is trash and the only thing I can call him out for is being contrarian".
Read a book son.

>>8024341
I have been waiting 6 years for a sequel.

>>8024349
Iktf

Last I heard he'd decided to write a prequel instead

>>8024360
>2018 for a prequel
Just kill me.

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>>8023122
Is that cum on that furry's tail?

>>8023166
If he wasn't near finished 2 two months ago , you think he would be finished this month? After putting it off for 10 years?

>>8023413
What is the historical context in which it was written? Ln2 postmodernism, ya big baby.

>>8023681
You haven't been here long then.

Any good scifi come out in recent years?

Is the Childhood's End TV series any good?

>>8023868
>i will parrot what lit tells me even if I never read the book on my own and formed my own opinion
I bet you don't even read but your favorite books are by Wolfe and Fag Mouser, because the vocal minority says it's good.

Gtfo

>>8024466
Ancilliary Justice

>>8024479
I didn't read the novel, and it was solid popcorn entertainment.

>>8024481
What's it like? Strong points?

>>8024481
just don't read the sequels

>>8024220
Pssttt. Hey
Look here >>8018509

Are the Dark Tower books a good read? Do I need to read other King beforehand?

I'm actually curious what sword & sorcery stuff has come out in the past 5-10 years. I'm not asking because I think other shit is "dated" or I don't like older books. I just wonder if anything interesting in that vein has come out lately. I already know Conan and Fafhrd and the Mouser, and Elric and so on.

How has it been affected and how has it been unaffected by the changes in more mainstream fantasy over the years?

>>8024480
>Fag Mouser
My first thought was you meant Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, but then you said "by Wolfe and Fag Mouser." Is there an author named Fag Mouser? I'm genuinely confused.

For clarity's sake: I'm not the anon you were speaking to before. Just curious what you mean.

>>8024511
First Law is pretty cool.

>>8024513
Gray Mouser, read that book.... never doing that shit again. Maybe it was nice to read when you were born in the 1960s, but it doesn't age well. And anyone who tells you otherwise is talking through nostalgic goggles because they read it as a kid and they don't want to ruin their childhood. Because it helped them get through when daddy used to touch them.

>>8024509
The first one was great but the second started going off the rails from a weird fantasy western into a clusterfuck of timelines, alternate history and doctor who style companion kidnappings. I downloaded the third one a while ago but I dropped it when they fought a robot bear on about page 5.

>>8024543
Weird, I almost universally heard that the first book is the worst.

>>8024291
Go to /got/ thread on /tv/, mate.

>>8024525
I'm 28 years old, literally reading the first one for the first time now, and loving it.

>>8023203

Unless he's just cucked, which would explain a lot about his writing

>>8024525
>nostalgia
Most people weren't even alive then though. I don't like them either but that's a dumb statement.

>>8023222

Yeah.

There are some really good stories in swords against death and swords against deviltry.

Some of the others a bit weak though.

>>8022442
>no Brave New World

Is it really bad? After hating 1984, i thought i was gonna mildly enjoy this one.

>>8024554
Good for you. Then you are easily amused and entertained, are you American by chance?
Do you like Rick and Morty, Family Guy, Simpsons, American Dad?

>>8024563
I'm reading in chronological order. On the Snow Women. Still haven't even met the Gray Mouser yet. Having fun.

>>8023365

Yes they are absolutely fantastique!

:)

Bourough's Tarzan books and the Moon Maid are also very excellent!

>>8023413

That's because the girls are martians

>>8024547
I can't speak for the rest of the books beyond 3, but the first one was more about the character of Roland and his pursuit of The Man in Black and his travels through the weird fantasy desert, while the second and third seemed to become more about the characters hopping through portals between universes and timelines and the whole thing became way to similar to homestuck for my tastes.
It really depends what you're looking for though.

>>8023437

Yeah.

It took me a minute to realize that its not so much an edgy assassin fedora vampire name, as it is simply a description that after prison he is living a shadows of his former life and is haunted by the shadows of what his life was before ot fell apart. It's a very fitting name actually

>>8024558
It is a solid statement, even if they didn't read it in that timeline, they did read it as a kid, and that affects their actions now.

I read Harry Potter and Artemis Fowl as a kid, if someone asks for books pertaining to those genre i would suggest them, are they good? No because they deal with shit in black and white, they may be good kid stories, but they don't reflect on your life now as an adult. You know there isn't a right and wrong now, and that you might have to pull down your pants and let your boss have his way with you to secure your job.

>>8024589
Except, you know, they aren't kids novels like HP and most people actually haven't read them as kids because they aren't commonly talked about.

>>8023437
>Should I read American Gods if I like the concept but physically cringe at the main character's name?
It depends if you can get past it. The novel as a whole isn't Gaiman's best, but there are some fantastic little vignettes that follow different gods in their daily lives that make the whole book worthwhile.

Is Of Plagues and Priestesses guy still here?
Is soft cover sold out on blurb?

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>>8024598
>supporting jews

>>8024597

What is gaimans best?

>>8024589
Are you suggesting Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser is about how objective morality exists and great heroes stopping evil? Because they literally met when they discovered they were trying to steal the same shit.

>>8024611
Not him but Sandman. I think AG is his best novel though.