A Challenge to "Blanchardians" 2

>>8587855
>Personally, I'm not super confident how HSTS works. I don't find it all that important, though, except for knowing that I shouldn't except A*Ps to have HSTS traits.
What would it mean if some did?

>>8597408
Gender identity is overrated in explaiming why trans people transition.

>>8597411
"Some" might be within natural variation for straight gender conforming people, in which case it doesn't mean much. Otherwise, it would in theory be a strike against Blanchardianism.

>>8597440
>Gender identity is overrated in explaiming why trans people transition.
That doesn't really address what I said. What exactly do you disagree with in the OP if anything?

>>8597456
I agree that GNC isn't sufficient for being HSTS, but it is definitely necessary. It seems very plausible that bad treatment of GNC people is a major factor in HSTS transition. It is not necessarily the only factor, though.

>>8597492
>but it is definitely necessary
But it's not the *cause*. That would be MIGI, since there would be no observable effects besides dysphoria (GNC isn't an effect since non-HSTSes can be GNC).

>>8597512
The GNC is still causally upstream from transition, even if it goes through intermediate steps.

Think of it this way. Normal people who didn't drop out and aren't stunted development autists will believe mainstream science.

Only a few insane freaks losers would ever willingly buy into the pseudoscientific cult of blanchard. it's like, how anti-science can you even get?

>>8597821
Being human is causally upstream from being GNC.

Is HSTS caused by being human?

>>8597835
I've only started coming to this board recently and I'm not trans myself. Can you fill me in on what exactly Blanchardianism is and why it's a pseudoscience?

>>8597870
It's some whiney canadian's personal theory, but the problem is you can't just take every little thing someone said when high that sorta sounds like it makes sense as being true right away just because it makes the trannies here think it will make terfs like them more or something.

>>8597873
Wow thanks anon. That's real useful. Totally informative and not biased.

Can anyone else give me a quick rundown? I'm very critical of pseudoscience and I want to know if I should add this to my shit list alongside homeopathy, astrology and all that fun stuff.

I'm just not going to do that unless I know it's actually a pseudoscience and not just an alternative hypothesis that's as difficult to prove as whatever the mainstream option is (I could probably also use a rundown on that.

>>8597870
>>8597888
That's a massive fucking subject. Explaining why people believed miasma theory and how we discovered germ theory is not trivial to do both accurately and quickly.

If you're okay with a short, simplified rundown Blanchard's transsexual typology posits that there are two types of MTF transsexuals with two distinct etiologies. Exclusively androphilic natal men who he refers to a Homosexual Transsexuals (HSTSs) and the rest (who he refers to as autogynephiles - AGPs).

Homosexual transsexuals are extremely feminine gay men who can't cope with society rejecting them for how feminine they are. They develop the desire to be women because they feel society wouldn't reject them so harshly if they were women. For them transitioning is a "rational choice" - a way to be accepted as they are and to better be able to tempt straight men to sleep with them, increasing their dating pool. Hilarious highlights include prostitution as a positive diagnostic criteria for homosexual transsexuals.

Autogynephiles are non-HSTSs who suffer from an hypothetical condition referred to as an Erotic Target Location Error. That is, instead of seeking out a partner in the outside world they seek it in themselves. This is the supposed cause of Autogynephilia - the arousal at the thought of oneself as a woman or as someone engaged in stereotypically feminine behavior. Autogynephiles thus fall in love with a female alter ego of themselves. This paraphilia grows into a female gender identity over time as the alter ego grows more ingrained. Eventually the individual starts feeling increasingly distressed over not being able to be with their own female self and so seek to transition. Hilarious highlights include the idea that every aesexual MTF is necessarily an autogynephile, even if she doesn't experience sexual arousal.

The evidence for all of this comes down to the fact that, pre-transition, some 75% of non-exclusively androphilic MTFs experience some sort of autogynephilia 1/2

>>8597870
>Can you fill me in on what exactly Blanchardianism is
https://sillyolme.wordpress.com/faq-on-the-science/

>and why it's a pseudoscience?
Because muh feelz.

>>8597888
While only 25% of androphiles do. Blanchard's hypothesis tries to explain why this is the case, though it denies the 75/25 figures, saying it's 100/0. His extrapolations are completely untenable and are not recognized by today's medical establishment.

>I could probably also use a rundown on that.
Being concerned with actual evidence, the scientific view is vastly more complicated. The short of it is that there is concrete physical evidence that the brains of transsexuals occupy a male-female intermediate pattern in many sexually dimorphic regions as a result of abnormal natal development, regardless of orientation. A sort of neurointersexuality. This causes gender dysphoria. There might also be some genetic factors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexuality#Genetics
http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2005to2009/2006-atypical-gender-development.html
http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2015to2019/2016-transsexualism.html
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4699258/

>>8597925
Hey, that's the blog written by a programmer, right?

>>8597408
I propose counter challenge to Anit-Blanchardians. Educate us newfags on alternative theories and explain why blanchard is wrong without resorting to usual memes.

>>8597975
Try the links posted two posts above yours.

>>8597975
>Educate us newfags on alternative theories
Feminine essence.

>and explain why blanchard is wrong
FI isn't transphobic, Blanchard is.

>>8597975
>>8598003
wew dem next level false flag tactics nice

>>8598011
It's called summarizing.

>>8597936
>>8597915

Thanks for taking the time to type all of that. Obviously it's still pretty biased, but what can you do, I'll really have to look more into this myself. That's what makes stuff like this so hard to learn about. It's not just a scientific debate, it's a politically charged scientific debate. As long as the whole trans thing remains a political hot button topic, it's going to be a difficult minefield to navigate and there's going to be lots of scientists who may be unable to seperate their personal beliefs on the matter from their usual analytic, objective point of view.

I have actually heard of the whole 'intersex brain' thing before. It's a pity how much of the workings of the human brain are still beyond our understanding though. I'm sure neurologists in a 100 years will have a much better grasp of this.

It's funny you should compare this to miasma theory and germ theory though. Germ theory was one of those cases where the actual truth fell somewhere in between two different ways of thinking. People didn't just believe in miasma theory ('bad air' causes disease), people believed in contagion theory too (you have to physically touch someone to catch a disease). Germ theory essentially allows both of them to coexist in a way. Maybe that's what's going to happen here too. Or maybe not.

>>8598020
Yeah concrete physical evidence that trans people are intersex sure is the same as what you're saying.

>>8598021
Happy to help.
Here's the thing about being "biased" - the medical establishment is also "biased" against, say, Homeopathy, but you wouldn't dare say this is for political reasons. This is a similar situation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria#Diagnosis
>The American Psychiatric Association permits a diagnosis of gender dysphoria if the criteria in the DSM-5, are met. The DSM-5 moved this diagnosis out of the sexual disorders category and into a category of its own. The DSM-5 states that at least two of the criteria for gender dysphoria must be experienced for at least six months' duration in adolescents or adults for diagnosis. The diagnosis was renamed from "Gender Identity Disorder" to "Gender Dysphoria", after criticisms that the former term was stigmatizing. Subtyping by sexual orientation was deleted.
Emphasis on the last line: Blanchard's entire hypothesis - his Transsexual Typology - is based on subtyping by orientation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blanchard%27s_transsexualism_typology#DSM-5
>In DSM-5, published in 2013, With autogynephilia (sexual arousal by thoughts, images of self as a female) is a specifier to 302.3 Transvestic disorder (intense sexual arousal from cross-dressing fantasies, urges or behaviors); the other specifier is With fetishism (sexual arousal to fabrics, materials or garments).
The only surviving mention of autogynephilia is as a fetish. As mentioned there is no subtyping by orientation so any DSM references to it are in that context.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexuality#Blanchard.27s_theories_about_sexuality
> Blanchard's ideas about trans women have also been rejected by the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH), the largest association of medical professionals who provides care for transgender people, as lacking empirical evidence and for stigmatizing behavior instead of focusing on treating distress.

>>8598024
>Yeah concrete physical evidence that trans people are <feminine essence> sure is the same as <feminine essence>.
What did she (feminine essence) mean by this?

>>8598021
>>8598038
The scientific consensus, both here and in journals, is strictly against Blanchard with very few exceptions. This wasn't always the case. His theory was popular during the 90s. Things changed as neurology provided more and more direct evidence to the contrary (linked previously).

I've been looking for real-life cases of AAP (autoandrophilia) because Blanchardianism implies that should be a thing, too. Why doesn't anybody talk about it?

>>8598071
See
>>8598083

>>8597440
Blanchard affiliated research claims that AGPs all are total men on every level, neurological, sexual, psychological

Blanchard is even tweeting things from a Washington group that demands laws be passed against mtfs because they're sexual predators. Or that's what Blanchard rts now. https://justwantprivacy.org/ he posted some of their YouTube videos. So he thinks they're a threat to women and children.


I think uncertainty regarding what type I fall into and merely the chance of being AGP is a reason to never transition. I'm probably better off dead anyways.

Why can't I just get around to killing myself?

>>8598071
There was a thread a day ago (might be still up) that had AAP written all over it.

>>8598113
>Blanchard is even tweeting things from a Washington group that demands laws be passed against mtfs because they're sexual predators. Or that's what Blanchard rts now. https://justwantprivacy.org/ he posted some of their YouTube videos. So he thinks they're a threat to women and children.
link to those tweets

>>8598071
>>8598104

>>8598071
this thread>>8579554

>>8598113
>AGPs all are total men on every level, neurological, sexual, psychological
But woman is a social construct and a gender role.

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>>8598011
wew dem next level retardation nice

>>8598156
Not them but not according to Blanchard, who believes most gendered behavior is biologically driven.

>>8598129
You can find them in his media posts I'm sure. I don't have a Twitter account and I'm not going to look for something months old when I should instead be planing on a new suicide method. Look in media, you'll find those and a conference from heritage where they call mtfs a public danger and predators that he also retweeted.

So the stats say that 99% of all mtfs are AGP, so going by those number odds alone, I'm probably better off dead. It'll be fun I'm sure.

>>8598162
Then how can Blanchard explain HSTSes?

>>8598156
Being a man physically isn't. Being a man in your sexual behavior and risk profile isn't. And he thinks they're a public danger given his tweeting. A danger to women and children so he probably thinks they're the same as the sex crimes wing of a prison.

>>8598156
Gender roles build on sexual dimorphism.

>>8598172
And their research says agps are 100% men in all of those

>>8598171
>Being a man physically isn't.
Nobody disputes that both kinds of trans people are physically their natal sex.

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>>8598182
So in otherwords you and all of us are predatory men just like this cartoon

He's right. You need laws for forcing you to stay with the men.

>>8598188
>being male males you a predator
gb2reddit you dumb sexist bigot

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>>8598182
Gender is a lie. Sex is all that matters. If your sex is man, then a hideous bulky man is all you will ever be.

Maybe that's why Blanchard promoted all the bathroom law groups. Because he knows we're all men and he doesn't want entitled men like you transitioning and forcing their way into bathrooms and abusing girls

What is the difference between you and the guy in this cartoon?

There isn't any

>>8598193
Male is man. You're a hulking headers caveman with a massive man skull, man cranium and man body and neurology and muscles.

Gender make believe won't nullify that ever.

And the people frightened and the people hurt will be hurt no matter whatever magical gender you claim to be

>>8598197
>What is the difference between you and the guy in this cartoon?
He's a danger to society, the beginning of the end of American civilization and an enemy of all LGBT folks. Judging by his t-shirt, at least.

>>8598197
the hell are these shoes?

>>8598170
Extreme homosexuality, which is related to femininity. They fake the rest of their way to womanhood for the reasons he describes.

>>8598202
But you're physically and neurologically a man too? And cringy wigs and over the top caricature clothes won't ever fix that. Ever

>>8598205
Giants shoes that biological men wear

>>8598208
>Neurologically a man
Untrue, as factually shown by posts upthread. Transsexuals are neurologically intersexed even before hormones. Post-hormones they are very close to women.

>>8598193
So really, man and women are nothing more than phenotypes.

I plan to die. You should do the same if you don't want to be a bad guy

>>8598213
Blanchard published research claims that 99% of them are complete men neurologically

And at any rate if the phenotype of the rest of your body is man. You're still a man and suicide is your last salivation.

>>8598163
If you are unwilling/unable to provide source it may as well not exist.

>>8598208
Being male isn't the problem with the guy in >>8598197

>>8598222
>Blanchard published research claims that 99% of them are complete men neurologically
That's also false. Blanchard is not a neurologist and hasn't published such research. On the other hand many, many neurologists published research to the contrary.

>And at any rate if the phenotype of the rest of your body is man.
Sure, but I'm not a man mentally, which is what's important.

>You're still a man and suicide is your last salivation.
False.

As an aside, /pol/posters, I'd like to ask something: who do you think wins during these exchanges? Who nudges people toward or away from transitioning? The person insulting them without evidence or the person encouraging them and showing them the science? In a very real way, every time I get to counter your argument, you're helping push more people toward transitioning. You're actively creating the world you wish to avert.

For that, then, I thank you.

>>8598228
I don't have an account look up his media liar

>>8598235
That is the problem, he's a biological man and he's violating the space of women and children. He cares only about himself.

Why can't you realize that we're better off dead than being like that?
>>8598236
Your body is all that matters it's what makes you a man.
>>8598247
I gave up, I'm going to die. Blanchard was right. His friends who he rts and call us predators are right.

I plan to die. I think it's the best way out

>>8598283
>Your body is all that matters it's what makes you a man.
So there are no mental differences between men and women, right? So women are as likely to assault women as men are, right? Ergo, according to you, there is no reason for separate female spaces because they don't help.

>I gave up, I'm going to die. Blanchard was right. His friends who he rts and call us predators are right.
lmao nice try Fritz. Keep setting me up for dunks.

>>8598297
Men have a big deformed body that lets them demolish people weaker than them. They have socialization training them to cruelty and abuse. So that's a loaded gun pointed at innocents.

You can say whatever you want. I've got lots of ways to die. I think it's time to experiment.

>>8598199
Women abuse more children than men do.

Women commit more domestic violence than men do.

Why are you so obsessed with pretending men are the evil ones?

>>8598302
You don't need to be stronger than someone to abuse them. Men are taught to be protective of women. Try again Schultz.

This thread is confusing. Even if biologically we are "men" it doesn't make us immediately bad. We're not predators with just a penis. Like women and children we just want to be happy with who we are on the inside. It seems like society has painted every man as a potential threat and that's just wrong.

Especially for those of us on HRT whos sex drive and muscle mass is plummeting by the day. I wager in 1 year of powerlifting my girlfriend will be stronger than me or the average non-weightlifting male and will be a perfect example of how with a little effort women can avoid that damsel in distress mentality without making men the enemy..

>>8598249
Why are you calling me a liar?

>>8598339
Don't worry about it, it's just some trolls.

>>8598339
>It seems like society has painted every man as a potential threat and that's just wrong.
And sadly plenty of LGBT people are happy to go along with that and even encourage it.

>>8598218
Hurry up.

>>8598339
You can't physically be a man and call yourself a woman

>>8598199
Male or female, people are always capable of being monsters, and when people like you dehumanize and monstrositize trans people you create more monsters though fear, sadness, anger, contempt and guilt on both sides, and when people are made to feel like monsters and degenerate for something out of their control, many will an hero, some will become monsters,
and some will perhaps grow to ignore people like you and try to be happy.

>>8598422
Any tranny in the pursuit of happiness should leave this board.

its the worst thing you can do for your mental health

>>8598422
>>8598339

I'm trans/detrans/imminent suicide case

Do you realize how absurd claiming your a woman is when you're physically some sort of growtesque man?

Listen to yourselves. You've all turned into Susan's.

>>8598385
Gladly

Suggest a good way if you want to help and aren't just posturing.

>>8598563
What happened?

>>8598596
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leelah_Alcorn#Death

>>8601058
It fails, look up case studies. It fails half the time and horrifically disfigures and paralizes failed attempts.

Find something better and don't say guns.

>>8598038
>the medical establishment is also "biased" against, say, Homeopathy, but you wouldn't dare say this is for political reasons.
Some very much do dare but luckily aren't widely listened to.

>>8598113
>I think uncertainty regarding what type I fall into and merely the chance of being AGP is a reason to never transition. I'm probably better off dead anyways.
But even blanchard advocates transition as the treatment for gender dysphoric apg adults he's just kinda an asshole about it and argues that it might be possible to somehow cure agp children but he can't really be more specific than vague cognitive therapy because actual treatment would basically amount to conversion therapy and that attracts negative political and media attention so he just uses it to attack transition for kids.

>>8598222
>And at any rate if the phenotype of the rest of your body is man
So passing trannies are fine? Before you imply all trannies are obvious big hulking men I'd point out ftms like buck angel that are likewise big hulking hairy men in appearance.

>>8598307
Women and children are just pawns to them.
They just don't like trannies.

>>8598719
They're likely just lying so they can play the whole "don't make my mistake, it's too late for me but maybe not you!" game.

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Hey Blanchardians, where do you fall on the (real) political spectrum? My guess is that you're bottom right types whereas the mainstream trans narrative, especially off 4chan, is bottom left. What I'd love to hear is a top right trans theory, which would most likely have to be transhumanist as well as transgender.

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>>8607241
Mainstream universalist beliefs are delusions invented to support good policies, so depending on whether we ask "who do I vote for" or "whose worldview looks most like mine" I end up in either top left or top right.

>>8607254
It can't, really. What's the probability that all the different population groups *just happen* to have the same distribution of good genes?

>>8606842
AGP adult means hon so that's ridiculous. You and he want transition after its much too late.

>>8607259
>AGP adult means hon
Unless AGP persists after an early transition.

>>8607260
But you said early AGP is bad. That AGP should transition after they've become 100% men so looking like a huge freak is guaranteed.

>>8607264
But he also tweets things about how AGP/hons are perverts and a menace to women in bathrooms

>>8607265
I (>>8607260) am not >>8606842.

>>8607262
I'd say that it rather looks like intelligence isn't under strong selection. The rare times where intelligence does get strongly selected for (e.g. Askenazi Jews), evolution quickly starts coughing up very intelligent people.

>>8607241
Why is idealism the opposite of pro-capitalism, technophilia and futurism?

What do universalism and particularism mean in actual policy or views?

>What I'd love to hear is a top right trans theory, which would most likely have to be transhumanist as well as transgender.
What are the open questions about what it?

>>8607244
How?!

>>8607262
>Tools like IQ tests typically ignore education and class immobility.
Intelligence studies nowadays typically control for income and/or education.

>>8607284
>How?!
It's a Silicon Valley thing.

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>>8607262
>>8607283
>>8607290
>>8607296
>IQ
>Intelligence

>>8607307
The everyday meaning of "smart" is as much or more WIS as it is INT.

>>8607301
>capitalism as is can't sustain itself without the eradication of the majority of humans
What does this mean? Why wouldn't (the cutting edge of) capitalism just set aside the unemployable humans and do its own thing? Who'd want to eradicate them?

>>8607290
It's selected for in many cases, but not very strongly.

>>8607301
The simplest objection is "we aren't there yet".

>>8607343
>Karl Marx did the same.
Not that you'd know it if you listened to his intellectual descendants.

>>8607343
Realistically, improving general intelligence through genetic engineering will probably change the landscape in complex ways.

>>8607301
I'm an idealist capitalist.

>>8607307
High-IQ people are much better at deluding themselves for social/political reasons, but are generally good at applying their intelligence to everyday life.

>>8607360
No, the ability to control genetics is right on the doorstep, and even simple changes like median genome can probably lead to HUGE improvements in intelligence.

>>8607326
I'd say you aren't thinking weird enough. There are many other possibilities besides these two. E.g.,
- attractive humans could remain employable simply because humans like to interact with attractive humans (and unattractive humans would take out loans for advanced plastic surgery)
- subsistence farming could make a comeback
- philanthropists could set up Luddite reservations (it's also charity, but not the same as basic income)
- poor people could go extinct before they are rendered so obsolete as to starve because of ever-cheaper pleasures that compete with having children
I'd expect a combination of all of the above, and basic income, and failed attempts at machine breaking, and more, rather than a binary outcome.

>>8607346
>>8607343
Marx didn't take machines seriously enough. He didn't consider ascended economy-type outcomes.

>>8607381
Not him, but you can skim https://www.gwern.net/Embryo%20selection and form your own opinion.

>>8607369
What wold be the result. Like if I or my child were GMO, what would be different for me?

>>8607402
The most obvious thing to do would be to remove genetic load, which'd lead to better health, longer lives, higher intelligence, a more attractive physical appearance, and really just generally better traits.

>>8607372
>Luddite reservations
Civilized people could go there if they get fed up with capitalist laws. Like Indian gambling, except for slavery or trade unions.

>>8607422
But what would the higher intelligence mean in practice to me as an individual if it was me or someone I knew who had it?

>>8607453
Look up what IQ correlates with.

>>8607453
You make better decisions more quickly and have an easier time learning things.

>>8607241
Also, Trent has talked about how Blanchardianism seems associated with HBD, which is an upper right thing, so I don't think your lower right prediction holds true in general.

>>8606842
>and argues that it might be possible to somehow cure agp children
Why would you want to?!

autobumpophilia