What should be the new service rifle of Finland?

Finland's pretty irrelevant so you could change to gun-shaped pieces of wood and it wouldn't make much of a difference.

>>33961292
>get M4
>legalize AR ownership
>import murrican AR parts
>sit back and relax

Honestly just simply some AR variant with an adjustable gas system for those cold winters, 20 inch preferrably, but just as long as they wont fall for the piston ar meme i don't really have any complaints. Also my personal autism dictates that there shouldn't be a f/a but eh whatever.

>>33961315
They are already legal ya dumb dumb.

>>33961292
Obviously an AR clone.

Every country should be using AR pattern rifles.

Get with the fucking times.

Domestic production? AR
Or a polymer AR18 design like everyone else does

>>33961292
Make a 6.5 Grendel AK for the entire military standard, not because I think it's good but because I want to see what goes wrong

just buy HK416s

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>>33961292
Hk416, or a modified c8

>>33961292
I dont care as long as the demilled ones are sold to USA

But they already decided to go with OP's pic related RK62M, and there's no way in hell that there's money to go with an all new rifle considering the new fighters will be bought

>>33961309
no, you're irrelevant, stupidface

>>33961292
speaking of RK's it's about time SAKO bring back the M92S for civilian market

>>33961580
They only made enough parts to build the military contract (rk95 + spares) and any factory leftovers were made into 92s. The tooling is gone now.

>>33961315
>cold war tech

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>>33961611
Don't break my heart like that anon

>>33961292
ARs in 5.56x45mm, put adjustable carbine style stocks on both the short 14.5" carbines and the full-length 20" rifle. use free-floating heavy barrels. Also ask Colt Canada/Diemaco about hardening and adapting them for cold weather.

Flat top uppers with folding sights, omit the forward assist because it's silly, but keep the dustcover because it's good.
Make the fore-ends MLOK with plastic covers.
Do not buy the 3rd burst meme, Safe/Semi/Full is best.

Pattern ammo after Mk.262 Mod 1 (Open Tipped Match) for best performance in rifles and carbines.

Also expect GONSGRIPTS :::DD to break them on occasion so order lots of spare parts.
Actually on reflection maybe you should have fixed stocks on the full length rifles to avoid Spurdo Spärde breaking it as easily, let them have carbines with adjustable stocks when they've earned it.

>>33961403
Not widely, you can't just walk into a store and buy a rifle however you want.

>>33961707
>earning adjustable stocks
Fug u burger >:--(((

Btw why 14'5 and 20' when 10-11' and 16' tends to be the norm nowadays.

Other than that, I very much agree

>>33961292
It would be cool if they made a successor to the RK in 5.45x39, or 5.56. That would be awesome, but they will probably follow the AR or GTFO meme and buy some piston AR variation.
I just want countries with different cool guns...

>outdated

>7.62mm


thats a good caliber for an assault rifle that can into fully auto.

>>33961292
>Finnish government is looking for a new rifle
Where have t hey said this?

>>33961292

Follow NZ and buy LMT

far more likely they are just going to buy an HK416 like all the other small European nations.

>>33961873

relax

if it sounds like it makes no sense

youre most likely in


[spoiler]a shill thread[/spoiler]

>>33961848
The reason they went with 7.62x39 in the first place was so they could use captured Soviet ammo if they were to invade. Russia has largely switched to 5.45 now, so that point is moot

>>33961848

no major military uses it for a reason

>>33961611
shame, surely they'd be a market for them in people looking for alternative to american/bulgarian AKs

>>33961797
Because 5.56mm cavitates like a motherfucker from a 20" long barrel (especially if it hits bone) and is kind mediocre from an 10.5" long barrel, having 14.5" long gives it just enough to matter, particularly with a Mk262 style of load, while being compact enough.

And I mostly say what I say because conscription, no matter the country, generally leads to people putting their gun through some pretty inexplicable abuse, I could see a conscript undoing the castlenut on their carbine without thinking and the stock rotates in place until it comes off, throwing out the buffer and kinking the spring to shit.

There's a good reason an AKM looks appealing to conscript armies, because it's hard to fuck up, and if it gets fucked up it's generally easy to unfuck.

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>>33961961
yeah with US military where AIDS ridden weak faggots and women can barely shoot 5mm without betting knocked on their ass to the ground by recoil I guess I can see why they would switch to a lower more lightweight caliber.


but you see in countries where the dont practice degeneracy they liek to keep that bullet nice and large.

penetrates better and does a whole lot more damage.

>>33961292
>heavy

Start lifting bro

>shoots outdated 7.62mm bullets

Ammo is fine, train with bursts.

>no rails for sights and such,requires outfitting

You shoot the rifle, not the sights, be proficient with the bare bones and then improve.

>Cold war tech

So is 60% of EU arsenal, and what?

>inaccurate thanks to reasons above

Rifle is fine, don't fuck with it.

Just let me give you another solution:

>Increase ammunition available for training
>Double mandatory shooting practices.
>Deploy small units into shitholes, it doesn't matter if its in support or direct combat but give soldiers experience

There, a few months of doing that and you will see how the "gun" problems are solved in no time.

They should make me MoD or something...

>>33961292
i thought the rk 95 was the best ak variant

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>>33961292
>heavy
Go to gym, kid
>shoots outdated 7.62mm bullets
the 2nd most popular intermediate cartridge in the world, which kills fast and works wonders out of barrels of any length.
>no rails for sights and such,requires outfitting
No basic issue military rifle had them before mid-00s. All of them were re-fitted, which is exactly what FDF is doing with its RK-62M program as we speak.
>Cold war tech
And AR15 aint? It's literally 1950s tech!
>inaccurate thanks to reasons above
Someone didn't get the Golden Trigger badge in the army, huh?

Some FDF units are using RK95s + AGOC as their DMRs, popping targets past 450 meters. That's more than enough for the purpose these weapons were designed for.

>What do anons think?
That you're underaged b& moron.
>Maybe we should gun for M27
at least call with with its REAL NAME, not the yank designation. Not to mention at least Norwegians dislike the HK shit, with conscripts preferring the old G3.
>or Grendel based rifles instead?
yeah, and lose any and all logistic benefits.

>>33962057

like what country

Zimbabwe?

>>33962108
it is. OP's just some CS:GO kid who wishes he'd get to wield "M4A1" and "Beretta" in the army.

More RK95's in 5.56, maybe spare parts in 5.45 to follow the old philosophy. Finland only has to face Russia, which won't switch from AK-pattern rifles too soon.

>>33961664
I love you sako-chan

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>See posts about weight
>can't be that bad
>8.16 lbs
>mfw

That's pretty goddamned heavy

>>33962181
for weakling manlet pussies and women like you

>>33961707
>heavy barrels

Use fluted profile barrels and free floating is optional.

>>33961632
I suppose they should buy your favorite flavor of the month AR-18 in a bodykit.
Or if you are slavicly disadvantaged perhaps Super AK-74 2K: collector's edition

>heavy
So lighten it. You're a small country, so the cost to modernize is fairly moot. Aluminum receiver, railed hinged dust cover, boom there's at least a pound off just like that
>shoots outdated 7.62mm bullets
Stick with 7.62, the reason you're still using it is the same as why the Russians still use it in a limited capacity, its better than both 5.56 and 5.45 against foliage.
>no rails for sights and such,requires outfitting
So add integrated rails. Follow the ethos of the R6 or Galil Ace. Half the weight issues with the RK come from adding things onto the design where parts should have been swapped entirely. Instead of jury-rigging railed flashlight mounts onto the gas block, drop the hand guard entirely and replace it with an aluminum rail or (if you really want to be modern-chic) a Keymod hand guard. Keymod would probably end up lighter than the stock hand guard too, since its literally a section of steel tubing with holes drilled in it.
>Cold war tech
So is the AR. I dont really see the contention.
>inaccurate thanks to reasons above
New barrels would alleviate this. Id say the accuracy would be more an issue of them all being beat to shit rifling-stripped-clean conscript weapons than a fault with the design.

Personally I think the recent rush for small irrelevant purely defensive countrys to replace their entire small arms is weird and pointless.

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>>33962227
I appreciate the detailed and smart feedback, but I'm sorry to inform you that you're replying to ages old bait here.

Not to mention people don't seem to realize just how tight Finnish Defense Force's post-Cold war budget really is. Only once in a while do they get enough funds to get something relatively modern, and the last few purchases have been mostly vehicles (Leo2A6, updated PASIs, some boats...) and some replacing weapon systems for patch the hole left by banned anti-personnel landmines.

Making anything too light and flimsy would result the guns being beaten to death in no time in the hands of the conscripts. The quickly depleting numbers of serviceable RK95 rifles is a good example, as only one batch was ever shipped before the whole company went under. FDF really makes grunts keep the RKs in mirror-sheen when outtawoods, which is why some of the rifles are stuff our own fathers literally used to wield during their time.

And like said earlier, railz and shit are being applied on RKs as we speak, with more and more conscripts getting personal optics and other electronics each year.

>>33962227

7.62x39 is still commonly fielded, as we've seen from Crimea.


Ukraine is dumping 5.45 for 7.62 as well.

>>33962113
>2nd most popular intermediate cartridge in the world
With poverty armies, people serious about the AK moved to the 5.45mm

>>33962191
Fluting is a meme.

>>33962191
>and free floating is optional.
No, who taught you this? Fluting does not in any way mean you don't get an advantage from free floating.

>>33962580
>people serious about the AK moved to the 5.45mm
only in ex-commieblock countries, because Moscow demanded it.

Czechs still use 7.62x39, even if they're now switching to 5.56.

>>33962707
Economy was the biggest reason for that

>>33961712
>be over 18
>don't be a fucking retard (see: mental disorders, acting like a volatile piece of shit)
>don't have a shitty background

>1. be a conscript in army (wow 180 days so hard)
>or
>2. civil service for god knows how long the required amount is

>have a purpose to use it, reasons include:
> hunting
> range stuff, clay pigeons etc
> a job where it's mandatory (see: hunter etc)
> a photo shoot etc.
> museum/collection
> memorabilia
> signalling shit

>take a psych test every 3 years or see a doc that just looks at you and asks a few questions like "are you feeling suicidal", "do you hate anyone so much you want to kill them?" etc.

>police questioning once, 2 times or never. 100% quarantee if you're looking for your first permit, they just want to hear where you'll use it etc

congratulations, you can now buy every legal weapon in finland (rifles at least), wow so hard

>>33963972
>>have a purpose to use it
What if I just want one because fuck the police?
What if I want one because I trust myself to do a better job defending myself than the police ever could?

they should make their own SIG 550 and use super hot loaded 300blk

>>33961292
SAKO or TIKKA-made M4 clone with tweaks for winter like larger trigger space, flared magwell, etc.

>>33961526
>Buying foreign when they have SAKO and TIKKA

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>>33961292
Finnish gov't is not looking for a new rifle you cocksucking autist, but let's pretend for a second they are. Are you reasons accurate?
>>heavy
Yep.
>>shoots outdated 7.62mm bullets
7.62 is not "outdated," but the Finn's main reason for adopting it was that the Russians use it. They should switch to 5.45 since the Russians mainly use that nowadays.
>>no rails for sights and such,requires outfitting
>implying it would be difficult to slap a rail on top of the RK
>Implying they do not already do this often
>>Cold war tech
Wow, just like nearly every other country in the world? AR platform is Cold War, AK platform is Cold War, FAMAS, AUG, L85, G36, all Cold War era. Kill yourself for even making this point.
>>inaccurate thanks to reasons above
And ESPECIALLY kill yourself for making this point. RKs have around ~1.5 MOA. Meanwhile M4s are out there shooting 2.5 MOA if they're lucky, and usually more like 4-5 MOA.

>>33965453
>Wow, just like nearly every other country in the world? AR platform is Cold War, AK platform is Cold War, FAMAS, AUG, L85, G36, all Cold War era. Kill yourself for even making this point.
Hell, most of the flashy "new" rifles like the SCAR, HK433, ACR, etc., are just AR-18 clones.

>>33965453
Isn't a lot of the accuracy difference due to ammunition? If i remember correctly, Finnish 7.62mm is made by Lapua and is borderline matchgrade, while US GI M855 is pretty balls comparatively. Also, If I recall correctly, 5MOA is out of spec for an M4. That far out of spec calls for a high level inspection and potential replacement in an active unit.

If it works it works, but I'd be curious to see RK62 groupings using Soviet made M43 rounds. Remembering that the idea for these rifles would be to use Russia ammunition in an extended war.

>>33965453
Converting existing 7.62mm rifles into 5.45mm seems like it would be possible.

>>33965609
Yeah, Spurdo brand 7.62x39mm is loaded really quite consistently, while M855 loads of 5.56x45mm is mediocre in not just terminal ballistics, but ballistics in general.

Load an M4A1 with Mk.262 Mod 1 and you'll see a radical improvement in your groupings, likewise, load your Rk.62 with cheapo Tulammo and accuracy won't be nearly as hot.

>>33961478
I like this plan

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>>33965377
I'd say have SAKO make ARs. Many low tier US manufacturers make passable rifles and SAKO is known for their quality. That's assuming they want ARs.

>>33962113
>Norwegians disliking HK416
Why?

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>>33965485
>SCAR
>HK433
>AR-18 clone
this meme needs to die. Read how a short stroke tappet differs from a short stroke piston first and then look at allllll the other differences in the guns like the bolt carrier rails, rear trunnion, upper/lower material and construction, barrel attachment, etc. They are seriously not even similar aside from being short stroke (different types at that) and having AR-like bolt faces.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/09/19/short-history-tappet-operation/

ACR does use a piston similar to the AR-18. SCAR and HK433 hell no.

>>33961292

Let's start with an obvious fact - OP is a fag. Second fact - Finnish military is not looking for a new service rifle. In fact what Finnish military is currently doing is testing prototypes (one of them shown in OP's photo - no less) for new service rifle model - 7.62 RK 62M, which is going to be modernized version of old 7.62 RK 62 service rifle. If they get it right RK 62M should be a notable improvement especially in that sense that it allows wider use of optical sights and at the same time has improved ergonomics (due to telescopic rifle butt).

Finnish military has existing massive stockpile of 7.62 x 39 caliber assault rifles, equally massive stockpile of ammunition for them, mags etc and industry that makes ammo for them. Finnish terrain (basically: forests, forests, swamp, more forest, lake, even more forest, field and a lot more forest - all of which in hilly terrain) engagement ranges are typically short and 7.62 x 39 actually works better in a brush than 5.56 or 5.45. Hence caliber-wise any improvement would be marginal at best.

As for rifle design, Finland has reserves of 900,000 men trained to use AK-type rifles, just training them for another rifle design would be a massive undertaking. From financial viewpoint replacing rifles, ammunition and all accessories with some other rifle design which might be slightly better (or not considering AK-design is actually pretty damn good for cold weather) would not make any real difference. Hence what FDF is actually currently doing is spending its limited acquisition budget in acquiring new artillery systems, counter-artillery radar systems, artillery missiles etc - which in a war can actually make an impact in combat-effectiveness of Finnish troops. And once these have been acquired the next in line will be new fighter aircraft for Air Force and corvettes for the Navy, which are going to cost a shit-load of money, hence Army is not likely to find any extra financing easily anytime soon.

>>33961292
>Heavy
>inaccurate

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>>33961292
ARX-160 in 7.62x39

7.62x39 is pretty wood

>>33961961
Finland, Russia and the Navy SEAL, all use 7.62x39

>>33963972

Psych test is actually about to be removed from requirements and even now is normally only required when acquiring first short firearm (pistol or revolver). Also there is no requirement for psych test every three years - what is required for first short firearm is proving that one actually uses the firearm for the purpose listed in application after first three years.

>>33966862
If you have ever held one you would know its heavy.

>Finnish army isnt looking for replacement

Objectively false. Modernisation will only add 15 years to rifles life span and most special branches have already ditched RK.

Its stupid to assume they wouldnt be looking for replacement. I think special forces got the SCAR few years back

>>33966883
Arx 160
Finland doesn't whant anything from Beretta after they purchased Sako and discontinued the rk95

>>33966979
heavy gun are more accurate than lighter gun

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>>33967179
shame,
they Fin should go ahead of time and adopt 6.5mm gun

>>33964532
Then you just make up an approved reason or is that too hard for you?

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>>33966049
I work for the Norwegian military.

We have nothing against the HK-416. It's a great weapon, and a lot easier to handle than the AG3, especially for conscripts who are only going to have one year of service, anyhow.

Some people just miss the bigger boom and recoil of 7.62 and the idea that the bullet just goes straight forward until it hits somebody and rips their arm or leg straight off.

>>33962068
>>33962113
>>33962187
Every 12g saved on the rifle is an extra cartridge.

>>33962113

Forgot to add you to my reply: >>33967479

>>33966049
>Norwegians disliking HK416

Same reason a lot of people don't like AR-type guns in general: 5.56 a shit.

6.5 Grendel RK-95.

Wait what the RK is considered heavy?

>>33967179
Finland actually considered getting the ARX, but then they changed their mind.

>>33967492
Dude it's over 8 pounds.

>>33967496
When I did my conscription I seriously thought that was like average or something.

>>33967496

So what?
Everyone who isn't a complete fucking moron just snag part of their rifle, like the botton of the mag, or an edge of the receiver, against their LBE gear, and lets that carry like 80-90% of the weight.

Seeing people complain about rifle weight is the easiest way to spot a neverserved or a retard.

>>33967502
Yeah well it's not like it's unbearably heavy or something, but the AKM for example weighs a whole pound less.

>>33967496

Are you kidding? That's about 3.6kg. An HK-416 is crazy light at 3.3 kg unloaded, and things like an AG3 weigh in at 4.1 kg unloaded and are still not bad.

>>33967504
Again, every single 12 grams saved in the weight of the rifle equals one extra round, or in the case of the 7.63x39 every 16 grams saved.

>>33967513

Not really.
When I was wearing full battle rattle, the weight of ammo wasn't even noticeable.

>>33967511
Yeah and the ar-15 with a 20 inch barrel and no useless shit tacked on like quad rails is under 3kg, what's your point?

>>33967517
The weight a soldier can carry is constant therefore every sigle gram saved in the weight of the rifle can be used to carry more of something else, like ammo.

>>33967520

That it's not heavy. What else would be my point?

>>33967527

>The weight a soldier can carry is constant
No idea where you got that from.
The weight you carry is pretty much a spectrum of how much it slows you down and tires you out.

It's not like a video game, where you go 0.5 lbs over your carry limit and can suddenly only walk.

>therefore every sigle gram saved in the weight of the rifle can be used to carry more of something else, like ammo.
Dude, you can't even feel every single gram.
And if we want to save weight, there's plenty of heavy bullshit I'd get rid of / lighten up first.

what they have is better than any shitty ar clone

>>33962113
that rifle is so aesthetic. best AK variant
binland please sell.

>>33967179

That is not what happened. Manufacturing of RK 95 TP ended because there were no more orders coming from Finnish military, which happened due to 200,000 AKM-type rifles bought from China and Germany.

The reason why FDF is unlikely to buy anything from Beretta anytime soon is that Beretta tried to force the Finns to adopt ARX 160 with at least test status, even if the rifle is apparently to total POS. The leverage that Beretta used was a threat of relocating Sako factory to some another country that has cheaper labor.

>>33961292
SIG 550 (basic rifle), 551 (shortened rifle for mechanized infantry, paratroopers...), 553 (for vehicle crews and drivers) and 751 (designated marksman rifle).

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>All my favorite weapons are being replaced by AR clones

And directly get some SIG 5040 and 5140 grenade launchers at the same time.

If you're on a budget, there's also the B&T APC556.

>>33961906
It also goes through trees better and Finland has a lot if that.

>>33961292
it's not inaccurate tho, I can shoot a group of 10's from 300 meters with rk95-tp

>>33961707
>>33961315
>>33961413
>arctic conditions
>AR-15

>>33962033

>There's a good reason an AKM looks appealing to conscript armies, because it's hard to fuck up, and if it gets fucked up it's generally easy to unfuck.

The same exact thing is said about ARs.

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>heavy
are kiddins me, eat some protein
>shoots outdated 7.62mm bullets
its better in finnish forest
>no rails for sights and such,requires outfitting
new model includes rail and theres is option for scope too
>Cold war tech
....
>inaccurate thanks to reasons above
it's shoot good, i bet you haven't even shot one

>>33961555
smell a shit

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>>33966979
>If you have ever held one you would know its heavy.

tfw I'm a Finnish manlet and I could wield it just fine.

>>33962587
some benefits of a heavier profile with better heat radiation?

sounds great for a military rifle, lots of barrels are fluted on weapons already in service anyway.

>>33962598
I mean free floating is a meme, it's not that helpful at all. Military might wish to make their handguard more rigid (suspended at both ends) instead of the minor accuracy improvements of free floating the barrel.

>>33962018
dude i've wanted one of these Finnish RKs for fucking EVER. Also travelled a lot in Finland so am somewhat of a suomiboo so this shit is top of my dream/memegun list. I know it'll never happen, but if they sold these in US i'd be all over it.

>>33967674

t. Swiss salesman.

SIG SSG 550 are good rifles, but from manufacturing process point of view they are terribly old-fashioned.

>>33967813
They'd have to put a new receiver on them, and it's a milled receiver.

So like normal parts kit cost + $150

then there's the barrels...

>>33967820
Who cares? You don't manufacture them. And honestly, if AR's are simpler to manufacture, why does the H&K MR223 cost the price of a SIG 550?

>>33961292
>>33961292
>heavy
Git gud

>7.62
Kills things just fine

>no rails
They issue you everything you need which is nothing

>cold war
So is the AR

>innacurate
Objectively wrong

>>33964532
Then lie, dumbass

>>33961292
DESERT

TECH
E
C
H

MDR
>B U L L P U P
RAD!

they need to just take better care of the old rks

>new sights
>new mag springs
>ditch wobbly folding piece of shit rk-95 stocks
done

>>33961707
The finns like that 7.62 can shoot through trees and Trusting little 18 year olds to take care of ar-15s is retarded. The ak design fits the bill.

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>>33961315
>>legalize AR ownership
You're a century late.

>>33966467
>short-stroke piston
>radial locking lugs and rectangular bolt carrier
The SCAR is an AR18 fäm

>>33961611
You have it backwards, anon. Civvie rifles were out earlier than the military variants. If you look closely, there is actually a hint in the designations:
>M92S
>RK95
Do you see it?

You're still unfortunately correct about the tooling being gone.

>>33962018
I'm fairly sure they'd be more than happy to sell you guys some AK pattern rifles, but there are two problems: our export laws and your import laws.

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>>33967701
>what is the C7

>>33967783
>some benefits of a heavier profile with better heat radiation?
If fluted properly, otherwise you get less heat radiation and at worst decreased accuracy

>>33968110
What's gun ownership like in Finland? Can you go out and shoot at shit in the woods or do you need to go to the range to shoot?

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>>33968155
>What's gun ownership like in Finland?
There's a tedious amount of bureaucracy to overcome, but it loosens up the more guns you have. My rifle permits are valid indefinitely while my PPQ is for 5 years only. After the 5 years I have to prove I've shot regularly, after which it turns into an indefinite permit as well.
>Can you go out and shoot at shit in the woods
On your own land, or with the landowner's permission, yes, as long as you do it safely. Not permitted on public land due to the possibility of some idiot walking into the line of fire (our freedom to roam is pretty good and people do use that particular right).
Pic related, my hastily thrown together range at our summer cottage

>>33968155
Basically you can own any semi auto you want, as long as they are long enough and you have a good justification. Generally you need a shooting diary to prove that you are serious about your hobby when you apply for the license or you have to be an active reservist or such, I am not quite sure about the specifics.

SBRs aren't common, but you can get the license in special cases, such as if you are short yourself, or you are just generally seasoned hobbyist. It depends a bit on where you apply for the license, though you don't have to apply at your local police station. A friend of mine has an original semi auto converted AKS-74U with working folding stock.

If you own the woods then yes. You just have to make sure you do it safely. I don't think shooting around in public woods is legal though.

>>33961292
>7.62
>outdated
Shiiieet

>>33961292
>Finnish government is looking for a new rifle

For what? "National Defense"? From who? Russia?

If the Finns were really worried about Russia they would join NATO. The type of small arms they use are really pretty irrelevant until they deal with this reality.

That said, yes, Finland should adopt the M4 like every other civilized nation in the world. At least NATO could airdrop parts and ammo to the Finnish resistance.

They should also look at adopting American style gun laws. A nation full of private free citizens with M4's and suppressors would be more than enough to deter the Russians.

>>33968269
Finland already has approximately 33 guns to 100 citizens in civillian hands. And suppressors are legal, cheap, and easy to buy.

>>33961292
>7.62mm outdated
7.62x39mm probably performs better than 5.56 when you are trying to shoot through stuff like trees, walls or branches and such. Finland is 70% forest, so it's most likely that any fighting would either take place in forests or in cities, both in which having a 7.62x39mm rifle would be helpful.

>>33968118
yeah, that's as far as anyone ever gets with the argument.

>>33968269
>the Finns were really worried about Russia they would join NATO. The type of small arms they use are really pretty irrelevant until they deal with this reality.

You know nothing about russo-finno politics

>>33968416
>Finland joins NATO
>Russia grumbles about clay for a few weeks then moves on to trying to annex Belarus and Kazakhstan

>>33961292
Colt Canada rifle with an adjustable gas system. The Beaver M16 is pretty much the best version of the best rifle on the market right now.

>>33961514
>Huckster and Kon overpriced gimmick AR>>33967783
>I mean free floating is a meme, it's not that helpful at all
This is abject bullshit

>>33966467
t. Nathaniel F

How's it feel to be a shill?

>>33968318
And that's as far as anyone needs to get to win the argument.

>>33968416
Vatnik detected.

>>33967743
no u

>>33961309

Have you ever opened a history book? Geography?

>>33967484
>pointless cuts for ONE (1) extra round
wooow...
Besides, you're not getting more than 6 mags / day anyway in the case of hot conflict.

>>33967496
~3.2kg for the rifle only really ain't "heavy".
The M4 with all the tacticool shit on it you see in photos easily starts to weight 4kg.

>>33967520
>20" in the current year
>no accessories in current year
>"muh DI!"
>thinking a filthy AR has even chance in the hands of conscripts innawoods at -30 degrees celsius.

>>33967813
Valmet & Sako imported a number of RKs to the states during Cold War. They're obviously pricey as hell, but they exists.

>>33961292
They should just weaponize their countrymen's autism. Mongolia would finally become a relevant European country.

>>33962057

Mudpeople and Ragheads are the main 7.62 x 39 users, not because it is good but because the market is flood with them.

There is no army left full of Alpha Chad Thundercocks that has the unlimited ammo budget to get proficient at 7.62 x 51 in full auto.

>>33962407
>Ukraine is dumping 5.45 for 7.62 as well.

What?

>>33961292
Grendel is the way to go for you guys.

>>33962113
>dislike the HK shit, with conscripts preferring the old G3.

I have to nitpick, the G3 is also "HK shit" and our military generally seems to favor HK weapons. We've also got mg3, mp5, mp7, hk417 from HK. It's just wrong to say that Norwegians dislike HK.

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>still using 7.62mm

Yeah, russia will fucking roll over you guys

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>>33969608
But guess what caliber Ruskies are still using this very day and age, in limited quantities? Pic very related.

Also, "7.62" ain't a single caliber.
Quite ironic that you're not crying about Ruskies (and Finns) still using the 130 years old 7.62x54R ammo in their MGs and marksman rifles.

>>33969653
>Quite ironic that you're not crying about Ruskies (and Finns) still using the 130 years old 7.62x54R ammo in their MGs and marksman rifles.
He's not but I am. Rimmed cartridges are shit. Shit!

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>>33969765
>*BRRRTS in Finnish*

>>33962181
>8.16lbs is heavy
Loaded or unloaded? Either way it's not that heavy. My M4 was almost 11lbs with all the shit I had to have on it.

>>33962227
>KeyMod
>He doesn't know

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>>33969963
RK-62 is just 3.5 kg (7lb 10oz) with an empty mag. Fully loaded gun weighs roughly 4kg.
It's fucking nothing; even literal girls can handle it no problems during the service.

All these sissies should try lugging around a Suomi KP with fully loaded drum.

>>33968518
>>33968689
What is escalation for $600 alex?

>>33962068
I ate lunch at the same table as the MoD xDd

>wanting to carry heavier stuff thanks to their name

ebin

I cant believe how AK fags defend their guns, holy shit

>>33962068
My favorite part is time and time again when military units are only outfitted with
>muh rifle is fine bare shit
they under perform those in comparison to those with regular optics, NV, IR, supressor, ect.

If you honestly think that you're solutions havent been considered then you're fucking ignorant of how armies progress and advance. Thank God you arent actually in charge of anything important.

>>33969963
Except 11lbs with useful shit is way more useful than a stock 8.2lb rifle

>>33970183
Sure, but the point is that 8lbs isn't heavy for a rifle.

>>33970269
>33970269
not that anon but its 2017

>>33961292
>>Cold war tech
>replace with M4


kek

>>33966883
>that image
>has a vertical grip
>holding it by the magazine
>rear sight that far forward

>>33964532
Maybe stop being an edgy retard and tell them a reasonable use for it, Like range stuff/marksmanship/shooting competition and home defense

>>33970389
Home defense is not a valid reason for gun permit. If you are in danger then just run away and call the cops.

>>33970396
>this is what yuropoors actually believe

>>33970415
We dont believe that bullshit, but thats the law and no one is willing to change it.

>>33968196
What does proving you've shot regularly entail? Documented range visits or something?

>>33970447
Yeah, pretty much.

The requirement for getting the permit is a whole of 10 range sessions during a span of 2 years. So it's more or less an annoyance.

>>33968269

> If the Finns were really worried about Russia they would join NATO.


Now that's what I call Global Engagement

>>33970415
Finland isnt a shithole so home defense isnt a reason. Our thieves arent retarded and only rob empty houses or sheds.

>>33961413
>Obviously an AR clone.
>Every country should be using AR pattern rifles.


get out burger

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>>33969149
>ONE (1) extra round
No, i said that EVERY 12g saved is an extra round. For the weight of Rk 95 (3.7kg) you could carry an M16A1 and 67 cartridges of 5.56mm.

>>33970352
He's using it by the magazine so he can brace his left hand on his knee.

>>33970037
>>33962187

>Wanting to lug a heavy gun around purely for machismo

Retarded iih

If more people had that mentality, troops would still be lugging around 12 pound smgs

>>33970650
It's more to do with the guns having to be conscript-proof.

>>33962375
>by banned anti-personnel landmines
Isn't Swedish just renamed their into anti-vehicle or something like that?

Night vision behind the aimpoint is pretty terrible. Behind the eotech its better

>>33969765
Rims don't make a significant difference in a single-stack magazine or a belt-feed, and with a belt-feed having a big rim for the extractor to grab onto is not a drawback.

For double-stack mags, it can be done, but it'll be a bother, so that's worth considering.

>>33970085
>AH NUU!
Eat shit Pjotr.

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>>33970650
>RK
>Heavy
like said a hundred times ITT: get fit fatso.

>>33970945
Damn it pisses me off seeing wymmyn in combat gear. Fucking useless sluts.

>>33970973
That's a trap, calm down.

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>>33970973
American sluts are just that: useless sluts.
Nordic women are the mothers and fellow warriors of Viking descendants.

>>33971032
No they aren't.

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>>33968110
I'm sorry Finbro, your country is cool, but I just can't un-see this

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>>33971038
Yes they are.
Don't be mad just because a "puny girl" can do more pushups and gets to blow shit up with gear you're never allowed to own.

>>33971051
It's a lion with a straight western sword, stomping a curved, eastern sword. Pretty clear to me.

>>33971053

http://ylioppilaslehti.fi/2010/11/x-patriate-the-land-of-promiscuity/
They are sluts. They have no physical standards, or lowered physical standards. They're annoying, they think they're empowered, they suck at everything they do, and make a mess of things.

I know you're just trolling but fucking hell

>>33971051
>the scandinavian gay love webcomic made by a danish woman

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>>33971077
>some fucking MAMU rant article
You trying to say something?

>they do this and that and I'm better!
t:(You).
I bet you're a total charmer in parties. Hope ya had a good time in the civil service.

>>33971101
http://www.economist.com/node/12755557
The cited research.

Fuck off with your useless and disgusting sluts.

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>>33971124
>yank ""research"" from 10 years ago
Wow, you sure showed me.
Don't tell me you take any of this shit seriously?

Oh wait, you're a burger. Of course you do. I bet yer a 250lb neckbeard preparing for "SHTF" and fight "muh gov't!" and shit.

>>33971158
Not that guy, but you lost.

>>33971186
Not that guy, but he won.

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>>33971186
I lost... what exactly?

According to some literal-who research made by goddamn 'muricans, Finnish girls like to get it on just as much as guys... and that somehow negates the fact that the females serving in the FDF would not be skilled, ambitious and generally tend to perform well?

if so... wew lad, I sure lost! :^)

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>>33971207
>* and that somehow SAYS that the females serving in the FDF would not be skilled, ambitious and generally tend to perform well?
FTFM, before grammar nazis turn this into their own ammo.

>>33961292
G36

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTbTyFloelc

Zuverlässig!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGwkHktkTxU

Überlegen!

If its 5.56 rifle you need and have a age in every aspect you can forget the FN and american shit. HK is the way to go.


Americans coudnt designe and build a proper rifle if there life s depend on it.

>>33971101
most ugly troll I ever saw.

>>33971283
>get buttblated
>"y-you're a trull!"
American bride, ladies and gentlemen.

>>33965485
HK433 is a AR cole

AHHAHAHAHAHAHHA

nigger the AR dose not even come close its so shit.

>>33970892
FN MAG-based models like the M240 and M249 use disintegrating links and are pushed forward into the chamber, rather than yanked out on the rear stroke like on the M2 or Mk19.

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>>33971283
is this (You) ?

>>33971038
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shieldmaiden

>>33971308
Questionable documentation on that one, most likely they were nothing more than folk tales.

War is the province of men, especially in close quarters.

>>33970973
Most women here are more /fit/ than average american lmao

>>33971358
I'm Finnish, you pillock.

>>33971032
Women only fought when the situation was truly dire. As in, they'd die anyways if they didn't fight. That's why mentions of women fighting at the side of their men is rare and usually only when they are all cornered. Professional warrior women were EXTREMELY rare, if they existed at all.

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>>33971371
>Professional warrior women were EXTREMELY rare, if they existed at all.
Look up "Amazones".

And if you reeeally wanna pull hairs, Finland barely has professional soldiers at all.

>>33971368
So am I koivisto

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>>33970973
>Getting this triggered about seeing a tiny handful of women in a military that hasn't significantly fought in any war in over 70 years
I think women in the military is just as dumb as the next /k/ommando but holy shit dude, contain your autism.

>>33971483
I'm upset because it affects me.

>>33961292
AK-101 so you can have a real cartridge but still use all your surplus parts

>>33970945

It's objectively heavy compared to modern rifles.

I consider the 416 heavy and that thing is 7 lbs

>>33968133
Is there really a difference between the c7 and the m16 other than cosmetics?

>>33970973
Back to >>>/r9k/ with you.

>>33971538
>objectively heavy compared to modern rifles
Like said many times ITT, there's plenty of 4+ kg military rifles used around the globe, and M4 can easily be dressed up to be borderline 5 kilos fully loaded.
>I consider the 416 heavy and that thing is 7 lbs
RK's mere 3.5 kg (7lb 10oz) unloaded, and it's like air. And I've never been to a gym.

>>33971548
different barrels and other minor innard differences just to make 'em more reliable in cold, snowy winter environments.

>>33971576

This "Im strong so it's okay" is not an argument anon

you are carrying less shit because your rifle is pigfat

you are tiring yourself out sooner, it's an all around lose lose

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>>33971597
But I just said that I'm a weak bitch nigger compared to many "true soldars" out there, and RK was NOT heavy.

>carrying less
uh no? You carry what you're issued + your extra shit you think you need.

>you're tiring yourself out sooner
If your stamina drains out of an average weighting assault rifle, then you really need to consider lifting.

>>33971293
>short stroke piston
>rotating bolt with 8 radial locking lugs
It's an AR18 fäm.

>>33971308
Isn't that fanfiction propagated by whiteknights looking to get laid?

>>33971805
You're not getting his point, you idiot. He's saying that if the rifle is lighter, the whole unit can carry more ammo, or otherwise make hauling the thing less of a pain, increasing combat effectiveness.

>>33971883
>Actual historical term
>Hurr whiteknights

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>>33961961
five million angry communists would like to disagree with you

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>>33971505
How? Just enjoy the fact that you have some masturbation material during your conscription then get the fuck out of there, boom, never have to see a woman in gear again.

>>33972153
Because I'm in a worse position if I have to fight alongside them.

Rifle is fine.

OP is a faggot.

Give me all your RK's, they are so obselete.

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>>33972158
>Finland
>Fighting in a war
Now that's a good one anon

>>33972173
It's been known to have happened in the past.

>>33972115
Oh, I get it alright. I did serve my time, I swet running innawoods, building shit ranging from trenches to field-phone lines. However, the combat gear itself weights fucking nothing. I have no idea why people fuzz about kevlars and shit these days.

Thinking half a kilo is a total game changer is just delusional ignorance. We got vehicles and mobile maintenance bases for a reason these days. And like said earlier: the daily "fire portion" of a soldier is 6 mags for an average grunt.

>>33972181
Yes, and? Half a kilo off the rifle is still another magazine worth of dakka.

And it matters even more when you're doing cqb and a heavier rifle is slower to point and transition.

>>33972197
you seriously believe that you simply cannot carry a mag or two extra if your rifle weights over 3 kilograms?

>slower to point and transition
you've played too many video games.

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>>33972178
Of course, Finland has such a rich modern military history, how could I have forgotten those two combatants who lost their lives in Iraq?

>>33972224
>>you seriously believe that you simply cannot carry a mag or two extra if your rifle weights over 3 kilograms?
Of course you can, but you'll be increasing your load even more. If your rifle was lighter, you could have the extra mag for free. It's not a hard concept to grasp.

>you've played too many video games.
Ah, so this is exactly why sport shooters prefer heavy rifles over light ones and that they don't fuss over shaving grams off their rifles - because weight doesn't matter!

>>33972227
>Iraq is the only place that matters
Wow, that yank mentality is very fascinating.
You gonna dig out the one Finn guy who died in Vietnam next, and pretend that's the only war that ever was before 9/11 ?

>>33972257
>It's not a hard concept to grasp.
Well duh, but you are making a huge deal out of it. Like said, RKs weight as much as your average military rifles around the world. Even less than some NATO shit still in use, like SA-80, FAMAS or AUG.

>muh sport analogy
totally two fruits. I should know, I practice 3-gun.

>>33972308
62's maybe, 95s are heavy as fuck. Bullpups are easier to point because more of the weight is closer towards the body.

>totally two fruits. I should know, I practice 3-gun.
Because soldiers don't need to rapidly point at different targets?

Be honest, would you rather take an AR or an RK to the competition?

I have both an M92S and an AR15 and I know what I'd choose.

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>>33972261
When it's the only war you've actually been in in the past 72 years it kinda does matter.

>>33967670
How many of those have you used in battle? If none, why do you care even slightly?

Buy the toys you enjoy.

>>33972344
>95s are heavy as fuck.
by 200 grams. And 95 are way rarer, and slowly disappearing as we speak.

>would you rather take an AR or an RK to the competition?
I take my Norinco.

>>33972355
we've been at odds with a certain superpower for a millennia. Some people don't need to look for trouble, it tends to come to us.

>>33968269
>If the Finns were really worried about Russia they would join NATO.

History illiterate burgertard confirmed. Crawl back in your trailer, LaQueefa needs servicing.

>>33972390
>I take my Norinco.
Then you lose to people with lighter rifles.

>>33971273
>the barrel is literally molded into plastic

>>33971124
Who hurt you?

>>33972502
Nobody. I'm just sick of there being nothing but used goods in this shitty country.

You have to look at 11 fucking year olds to get an unused girl.

>>33972466

Well, it's trunnion is. Which is just as bad.

>>33972418
and you think that people are born with gun handling skills?

>>33972568
No, but what skills they have work better with lighter rifles.

>>33961292
Can't go wrong with a FAL

>>33961309

>Held off millions of Russians with guns that we're only marginally better than gun shaped pieces of wood.

>Fought alongside Germany as part of the Axis and didn't get their shit pushed in as a result.

>Irrelevant

You need to learn some history son. If there is one nation out there I definitely would not fuck with, it's Finland.

>>33972587
Every weapon system requires practice and different kind of touch. You're not going to turn into an AR15 master in a few seconds no matter how many years you lug around RPK.

>>33972640
Sure. But when all else are equal, the guy with the AR will win.

>>33972686
that's highly wishful thinking ignoring the numerous randomizer elements the world is affected by.

>>33972712
Sometimes, some firearms are just better at some things. An AR is faster at being pointed to targets, is faster to reload, and has lighter ammo to boot. An RK might be less prone to be broken by retarded conscripts and may or may not be more reliable.

>>33972131
Norks use 5.45mm you goon.

>>33972548
What Chad did she pick?

>>33972726
I've seen people reload and use AKs faster than AR guys. It's all subjective.

>>33972749
Type 56-58 and 6X are still THE most common Nork rifles. They also use some chink 5.8mm stuff.

>>33968269
>Join NATO
>Put large nation that has fought and won against Russia multiple times directly on their border
What could possibly go wrong. The Russians wouldn't see this as an act of aggression or anything, surely.

>>33973469
The Russians see existing as an act of aggression.

You are either their slaves or their enemy.

>>33972726
I will also point out it is mainly the training that matters. With minimal amount of practice the AR platform is faster, but if I had an army ingrained on how to use the AK (which isn't that much slower) I would continue with said platform.

>>33967517
>confirmed pog

I'm not saying that the ammo for a crew serve is the comparison here, but full load out versus running around dry is definitely noticeable.

>>33972418
Holy fuck this autism. 2 people of similar skill level are going to perform similarly whether their rifle ways 1lbs more or less. You are fixating on one dumb fucking thing that is entirely irrelevant.

>Muh extra mag
Except you're not issued an extra mag or ammo for it. You're also not accounting for the physical space taken up by that mag, or the extra gear (pouch) required to carry it. Just fucking stop.

>Muh 3 gun
3 gun is nothing like combat. It's a speed game. Shooting in a war is nothing like 3 gun.

>>33961292
Just make it more ergonomic similar to the AK-12, also possibly change the caliber to 6.5 Grendel.

>>33973505

>t. Schlomo Shekelstein

>>33974164
Do a 10 mile march with all of your gear and tell us if you think your rifle being a couple pounds lighter would be beneficial.

>>33973469
Russian victim complex means putting your arms up to shield your face as they swing a bat at you is being aggressive.

>>33975039
>You're threatening us by protecting your allies from being threatened by us!

>>33975052
>>33975023
>one turnip has been deposited into your account

>>33975108
U wot? I was quoting Russia's response to missile defense in Europe.

>>33961906

While having the same ammo as most likely opponent was a useful perk, what is known actually suggests that it was not the reason why Finnish military chose AK-design and 7.62 x 39 cartridge. When FDF got interested about assault rifles in mid 1950's there wasn't actually much of other assault rifle designs or ammunition choices available. West was still dicking with 7.62 x 51 battle rifles and nobody was making StG 44 anymore. Some other rifle designs were also tested at that time, but AK beat them easily.

Finnish military also settled to 7.62 x 39 as the best choice for assault rifle cartridge early on, since some western rifle prototypes (at least Madsen and SIG) were acquired in that caliber.

>>33961292
just buy hk416 like France did

>>33977501
way too expensive, and would render all of the current arsenal obsolete.

>>33977408
>and nobody was making StG 44 anymore
Because it was a piece of shit?

>>33978001

Not necessarily, since Ian apparently ended up in his video about StG 44 vs AK 47 ended up actually preferring StG 44 of the two:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPWJOJZQCs8

Personally I have tiny amount (one mag worth) of shooting experience with StG 44 and it was semi-auto-only reproduction version, hence it would be difficult to say anything certain based on that beyond noting that the design did not seem to have any obvious handicaps.

>>33977408
>and nobody was making StG 44 anymore
They did though, they were made in Argentinia before it settled on the FAL.

>>33970556
>implying that civilized society isn´t based on the right to property and self-defense
Only shitholes protect criminals against their prey.

>>33968196
>After the 5 years I have to prove I've shot regularly, after which it turns into an indefinite permit well.
Pistol licences don´t become permanent anymore. Brush up on the law.

>>33978434
My mate got a permanent pistol permit literally two weeks ago.

>>33978130
It's more that the manufacturing methods and materials were shit.

Conceptually, a stamped tilting-bolt rifle with a long-stroke piston is functional.

>>33970556
>>33970396
>serf mental gymnastics
We'll never get out of the fucking submissive mindset with your fucking statist abiding faggot mentalities.

>>33978438
Your mate is either illiterate, not well versed with the law or ignorant of what privilege the local constable has bestowed him.

>>33978496
Not seeing anything about pistol permits being for max 5 years. Cite the law?

>>33978516
http://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/ajantasa/1998/19980001#L5P53

Harrastuksen jatkumisen osoittaminen

Luonnollisen henkilön, jolla on metsästyslainsäädännön mukaan sallittua eläinten ampumista, ampumaurheilua ja -harrastusta taikka näytöstä, kuvausta tai muuta vastaavaa esitystä varten 6 §:n 2 momentin 4–7 kohdassa tarkoitetun ampuma-aseen toistaiseksi voimassa oleva hallussapitolupa, on viiden vuoden kuluttua luvan antamisesta ja tämän jälkeen viiden vuoden välein toimitettava lupaviranomaiselle:

>>33978593
But that only applies if you have an indefinite permit.

>>33978609
No. There is no "viiden vuoden välein" anything with indefinite permits. "Toistaiseki voimassa oleva lupa" describes the nature of all pistol/revolver permits.

>>33978642
>Luonnollisen henkilön, jolla on ... toistaiseksi voimassa oleva hallussapitolupa

It only applies if you have an indefinite permit, clearly meant for those who have old as fuck permits laying around in their home.

>>33978642
Scrap that last part. The essence of the law, however, remains the same: licenses granted for sport shooting must be renewed in 5 year intervals and are subject to more scrutiny than licenses granted for fudd hunting rifles and shotguns.

>>33978657
>It only applies if you have an indefinite permit, clearly meant for those who have old as fuck permits laying around in their home.
Wrong, as evidenced by this part: "on viiden vuoden kuluttua luvan antamisesta..."

Pistol, semi-auto and revolver licenses granted before the recent amendments to the firearm law are not retroactively scrutinized. Old licenses are held according to old law.

>>33978670
Only when it comes to handguns, but yes, you appear to be correct.

>>33975028
Try 20 miles and I'm telling you it doesn't really matter that much. I could drop a lot more weight in places it would make a difference just by lightening the packing list.

>>33971392
>falling for communist memes from the same regime that said some coal miner mined 2 tons of coal in a single day with his bare hands because of his love for the party.

>Amazons are from greek mythology


I hate you people.

>>33969963
>My M4 was almost 11lbs with all the shit I had to have on it.
At that point why not just fucking go back to the M14?

>>33978986
Because the M14 weighs that much before you put a flashlight, PEQ, and M68 on it.

>>33972117
>Actual historical term
Dubious.

>>33978986
Because the M14 is an old piece of shit.
>considerably less accuracy
>considerably more recoil
>considerably heavier ammo
>considerably heavier without any fancy attachments
>considerably longer

You find a way to bolt all those AR attachments to an M14 and you'll find it'll be a lot heavier.

>>33978381

For export?

>>33979676
Don't think so.