PDWs

>>33811953
NATO was supposed to adopt a PDW, but the krauts were buttmad about the MP7 losing the competition, so they vetoed it and they haven't looked at one since

>>33811953
Special snowflake gun that needs special snowflake round. While it's nice, you're asking for a lot of logistical changes (not to mention they want you to switch to the 5-7 so all the ammo matches.)

>>33812065
You realize nato asked for a pdw and pistol that used the same round.
This guy has the right answer >>33812057

>>33812078
I do. Nowhere did they say it had to be a brand new round.

A mixture of >>33812057
and improved 5.56 ammunition fixing most of the performance issues with short barrels. If you can give rear-echelon guys an M4 for about the same space and weight as a P90, and only have to stock up on one type of ammo and magazine, then that's a logistical win.

FN made the thing NATO wanted. HK, being whiny pissbaby Germans with "MAH NGINERRIN" pushed mp7 (incomplete shittier package) and said "Fuck You Belgium" for the eight millionth time in 50 years

>>33812094
Actually yes, it did. The project specifically mentioned they wanted something with better range and performance against armor than 9mm

They're too fucking heavy because FN in their infinite wisdom made them direct blowback.

When your weapon meant to be carried instead of an M4 weighs as much as an M4, it's not going to do well.

>>33812094
They did not true, but they did have to find a way to meet the nato CRST specification. Being able to pierce 1.6mm of titanium and 20 layers of kevlar hence the ss190 was born

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>>33812057
FUCKING KRRRRAAAAUUUUTTTSSSS

>>33812134
Confirmed for retard.

>>33811953
What caliber would you guys like the Magpul PDR to be chambered in? It would be cool to see it in .300 memeout

>>33812364
.22 spitfire would be pretty sick

>>33812270
Please point out where I'm wrong.

>>33812057
Eternal Kraut strikes again

>>33812685
Point was to have simple weapon for rear echelon troops.

>>33812685
Not even him but
> 5.7 lbs
Vs
> 7 lbs
Not to mention the bullpup design puts all that weight against your shoulder and feels much lighter.

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>The P90 will fade into obscurity as a failed experiment
I don't want to live in this world anymore

>>33812753
this
You're cradling all that weight against you so it feels like nothing

>>33812753
>5.7lbs
Nope.

>>33812792
>t. someone who never held a bullpup
not to mention each magazine holds 50 rounds and weighs only a pound, compared to an M4 mag that weighs even more for just 30 rounds

>>33812820
Post your SBR'd PS90 on a scale.

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>>33812827
I can't, I will one day anon, one day

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>>33812792
> Nope

>>33812685
Your mistakes actually started with your mother when she decided not to abort you after consuming copious amounts of alcohol during the entire duration of her pregnancy.

>>33812876
>actually citing wikipedia
Top kek

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>>33812078
>a pdw and pistol that used the same round
here's the answer, any caliber

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>>33812792
> Nnnnnnoooooopppppeeeeee

>>33812882
>hur dur wikipedia is shit
you know those little blue numbers in brackets are citations right? you can check their sources

Anyone have that gif/webm of the magazine cumming?

>>33812904
Wikipedia also says the AK47 is direct impingement. They are hilariously wrong on most things.

Once again, post your SBR'd PS90 on a scale.

>>33812882
>gets BTFO, must double down and attack source.

Why don't you put your ps90 sbr on a scale and timestamp and post it? You are, after all, claiming a lot of expertise here.

>>33812882
>thinking "nope" > wiki
Top zozzle

>>33812911
If something on wikipedia is wrong, fucking correct it dumbass

and I will when you do

>>33812764
I feel you.

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>>33812911
You're full of shit.

>>33812057
This, but the P90 was so brilliant that it muscled into the SMG market even after the PDW concept went tits up.

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>>33812882
I have sbr ps90 but I'm not at home, I can confirm that it's around this weight, depends on the reciver style you have. Wiki is right. So is the fn website that says it's 6.3 lbs or whatever because they're using the military p90 with trirail. Go home faggot.
It's a comfy as hell gun

>>33812911
No the fuck it doesn't, i just checked

Fuck you man, you're a troll and also a replicant

>>33812886

but does it have better armor pen?

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>>33812685
>>33812792
>>33812827
>>33812882
>>33812911
Either
> Wow the balls on this guy
Or
> He's laughing all the way to the bank and your feasting on bait
I just can't tell anymore guys

>>33811953
>What happened with these?

People actually used them and found out that instead of being the best of both worlds they combined the worst. The agencies that bought them are now sporting SBRs while their P90s are catching dust. The last time we saw a PDW anywhere near real action was on that ded frog opr8r in Somalia back in 2013.
That being said, I'd love to own a semi P90 or MP7 for the novelty factor alone.

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>>33812943
MP7s pretty much too. That's at least got some military usage since it's a lot smaller and lighter.

Why is issuing M4s to rear echelon soldiers a problem? Don't get me wrong, I love the P90 for what it is, but the logistics problem of an additional ammo type killed it in the womb concerning large scale military adoption.

>>33813055
M4A1 didn't exist when the european pdw project was kicked off. From a historical perspective, the PDW concept is very useful.

>>33813016
Also how the hell are you supposed to use that light set up like that?

we already got plenty of 9mm and MP5s so why go through all the trouble of making a new memegun and memeround for troops who will more than likely never use them?

same reason why we shouldn't bother with a new sidearm.

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>>33813074

>>33813079

Either switch it to permanent with your trigger finger before doing anything else.
Or... or... well that's probably it.

>>33813094
A new sidearm isn't a bad idea, that Sig is a lot lighter and easier to maintain than the Beretta.

>>33812364
.17 Fireball.
>AP bullets in .172" already exist and perform well even at lower velocities
>non AP 17cal bullets are extremely devastating
>very very low recoil even when compared against PDW rounds like 6.5cbj, 5.7x28, 4.6x30, etc
>low noise when suppressed even out of short barrels with supersonic ammo
>would only require a barrel swap in the PDR or any other 5.56 rifle, being based on .222mag

>>33813094
But the Beretta is shit.

>>33813101
Are you intentionally being obtuse? The CAR15 is a very different animal from the M4A1. Note, I didn't say M4.

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>>33813108
Yeah, that's not how a tactical light is supposed to be used at all. Then again those are bong cops. All of the pics I've found seem to use them in this set up, betting it's one of those things they're not allowed to move and aren't really trained with.

>>33813126
>>33813115

yeah but who cares? hardly anyone uses them. i'd prefer our military budget go towards things that actually matter.

>>33812753
>m4
>7lbs
Nope. 6.68.
>>33812820
A USGI AR mag loaded with 30 rounds of m855 is exactly 16oz/1lb. A gen2 Pmag loaded with 30rds of m193 is 13.8oz. There's no weight savings per mag with the p90, you just get more rounds.

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>>33813149
>Obtuse
The CAR 15 is literally what the M4 was developed into. It fits the PDW role perfectly and it's ballistically way more capable than the MP7 or P90. The XM177 is actually lighter than the P90.

>>33813157
It makes the load slightly lighter for anyone who has to carry one, so it's got some use. It's also a tiny part of the budget anyway.

>>33813151
>Then again those are bong cops.

Bingo. They likely only get to the range once or twice a year with these to qualify, and that's it.

>>33813190
Please don't speak on a subject you're not well versed in. If you want to talk about the M4, get its lineage right.

>>33813222
Nigga you just trollin now.

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>>33813211
It's almost like they're setting these things up on purpose to make them unintuitive to use. All of the carbines I've found have had the same bad 6 oclock set up with a light designed for being used on a pistol.

>>33813329
see
>>33813190
>The CAR 15 is literally what the M4 was developed into
> M4 was developed into
>into

is English not your first language, or do you suffer from mild dyslexia?

>>33813431
Oh it's a grammer nazi. So you're just a fag. You know sentences are supposed to start with capitalized letters also and see is not a complete sentence.

>>33813413
>buy your department a new memegun that has direct attachment points all over 3 and 9 o clock
>disregard all of it and slap a pistol light at 6
>bungee slings
>magnifiers

Pottery.

It's like they're forced to go through all the stupid shit our units went through during the last two decades despite having free access to whatever's on the market today.
All they're missing are grip-pods.

>>33811953
NFA and Hughes Amendment kind of limits their sale to government and security agencies.

Without these restrictions who wouldnt CC an MP7 or something?

>>33813521
oh wow, making it sound like the CAR came after the M4 is just a minor grammAR mistake. No biggie.

Good thing you're not proofreading any technical material, you uneducated fuck.

God damn you're dumb.

>>33813533
I expect very few would CC one simply because they're all huge.

>>33811953
The largest gun market in the world (the US) has dumb fucking laws about barrel length and F/A. Since they're more expensive than an AR and you have to get a cuck stamp to own a proper one, they never really took off. Combine that with the huge post cold war budget cuts and short barreled versions of service rifles filled their niche.

>>33812134
>They're too fucking heavy
what?

>>33813521
The way you misused "into" totally changed what you're saying though, you fucking idiot

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PDWs are not prominent because their role can be filled just as easily with subcarbines.

Plus, if you just use a shortened version of the service rifle, you get the added benefit of not necessitating a new type of ammo, magazines, and spare parts in the supply system.

>>33813074
The XM-177, AKS-74U, and Hk53 all existed.

>>33812753
>p90
>has companion pistol named five-seven
>fires 5.7mm cartridge
>weighs 5.7 lbs

mere coincidence

>>33814222
multi level advertising right there.

Truly a gun for patricians

>>33813094
Europistan has plenty of surplus aks and Mausers laying around why should they bother with anything else ever

>>33812764
It won't fade into obscurity if they just made a scaled up rifle variant. Truly ambidextrous box space rifle of the future.

>>33814230
or autistic designer

>>33812764
shoulda made in in Best Milimeter imo

This is a pretty decent video on the subject.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejkHVAgzQ7U

>>33811953
snowflake round

>>33814671
Snowflake is any fucking round at development.

>>33813157
The amount of money they're putting into the new handguns is microscopic in terms of the entire military budget.

>>33812096
This nailed it. Further development of the 5.56 round so it was optimized for sub-16" barrels has made SBRs far more viable, while still retaining the same manual of arms as the standard service rifle and integrating smoothly into logistics.

>>33814016
>physically half the size of an M4
>weighs ~90% as much
>loaded mags weigh exactly the same
It's a valid argument against a weapon intended to replace a pistol.

>>33811953

Would pointed 357 sig have decent armor-piercing capabilities?

Since 5.7x28mm is more or less 5.56 short, could you remake the P90 in 5.56 but with a smaller magazine capacity?

>>33816549

Look at how the rounds fit into the mag and how they're fed into the action and ask yourself that retarded question again.

>>33811953
Carbines got smaller and more affordable. Makes more sense to just buy those as they use same ammo. My guess. SG-1 still made the P90 rad though.

>>33816549
5.56 is a a half inch taller than 5.7. Be one burgered p90

>>33816595
Well you'd have to scale everything up, sure. I don't see a problem otherwise.

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I just wish I had a P90, MP7 or something similar instead of a fucking remodeled and overengineered FNC-copy that weighs almost 10 lbs and is bulky as fuck because when you're crew in an AFV that shit is annoying as fuck.

>>33816624

Should be fine if you don't mind having a PDW the size of a violin case.

>>33816549
The mags might not like being that straight with a tapered cartridge, but if you can work around that it'd work. It would need a totally different locking system. Somebody mentioned in a thread ages ago that it would be as wide as an F2000, so that's not bad (not great but not bad).

>>33816713
>It would need a totally different locking system.

Not necessarily. You can scale direct blowback bolts up to accomodate rifle rounds, it's just not practical, and since nothing about this gun would be practical, that's not an issue.

>>33816713
5.56 is straight walled, and the mags the m16 was originally issued with were straight

>>33816733
No. No you can't. To make a blowback 5.56 the bolt would have to be ridiculously heavy. Also the reason there aren't any rifle cartridge blowback rifles is because of the pressure. The casing would not be able to contain it. The famas is Delayed blowback, and it's cycling/extraction is harsh enough that they can only reliably use steel case.

I'll take a 10.5" AR over a pistol caliber any day.

I got to finger fuck a ps90 today. The trigger was surprisingly ok. I thought it would be a super heavy like the tavor or the aug I've shot before. The tavor I shot was so heavy, I thought it was on safe.

The secret service and various SWAT teams use it. Houston, being the 4th largest city in Murica was the first police department to adopt the P90.

>>33812764
Nah, it has a following now, it'll live on.

>>33816366
>weighs less
>is smaller
>holds more rounds for the same weight

There's an argument here and you've not chosen it

>>33817666
They are not
Put a bunch of 5.56 cases side by side and watch it curve

>>33817729
The AR wont penetrate AR500 or fragment
It will also be louder and have more recoil

>>33817705
That or you can use roller delayed blowback, which is somewhat different from the FAMAS implementation. Either way will work.

>>33816713
Telescoping cases from the LSAT program will help a lot with the width of the weapon. Pursuing a rifle in this configuration is worthwhile because the P90 is nearly a perfect ambidextrous setup besides not being able to drop the mag free easily.

Maybe change it to insert from the side instead of the rear?

>>33818156
I specified delayed because the p90 is straight blowback, so if the action were just scaled up as the other anon suggested, it wouldn't work

>>33818084
And a pistol round would? How many guys out there are running around in AR500 by the way?

>>33812764
It will live on in the media/vidyagaems

Can't have a FPS nowadays without the thing

>>33817666
5.56 has a slight taper to it. Straight mags will work for smaller capacities but don't work as well with higher capacities, hence the curve in 30rd mags. Most "improved" AR mags have a continuous curve because that mid-mag bend is such an issue and 30rd straight mags are no go. 5.7 is completely straight though so it works nicely at 50rd

>>33818156
Roller delayed would fit nicely with a P90 format, having the rollers on the sides and the feeding/ejection above and below

>>33818084
What terrorist or gang-banger is waltzing around with AR500 plates?

Guns are loud - anything that stands a chance at penetrating armor is going to be super sonic anyways.

Small children can shoot 5.56 - harden up.

>>33812107
>FN made the thing NATO wanted.
Original requirement: weight less than 1.5kg
P90 weight unloaded: 2.5kg

>>33820821
Hey how much does a five7 weigh?

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>>33812057
>>33812078
>>33812107

Pic related when I see/remember how FUCKOFF HUGE the MP7 really is.

>>33812270

>Confirmed for retard.

yes yes you are.

>>33812753

>Not to mention the bullpup design puts all that weight against your shoulder and feels much lighter.

What? WHAT! Nearly ALL the weight is forward on those "90"s. Retardedly forward.

>>33812886

This anon gets it. When do we get the Kard pistol?

>>33814157

yup

>>33812057
I watched the Ahoy video too.

>>33812764
The Secret Service uses them

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>>33812152
I fucking hate Germans so much.

>>33813211
UK firearms police get more range time than the average US cop, they have to prove aptitude with a weapon to become a firearms officer, and train pretty often.

>>33813202
>>33815660
I think his point was more "why even bother with sidearms at all". It might not be much money, time and effort but its not none.

He's not exactly wrong either - most soldiers don't even carry them. Very rarely are they ever used in combat. Seems 80% of their use nowadays is as a status symbol for officers.

>>33818156
>Maybe change it to insert from the side instead of the rear?

What about reloading from the front, kinda like the G11.

> It's pretty short so its not as ungainly as it looked on the G11.
> Solves the armpit reload issue with bullpups
> Can keep the gun shouldered during reload.

>>33820990
Why is there a store just for renting Floor Sanders?

>>33813149
>obtuse
No I am being a right angle.

>>33812057
>first post best post
It's become a standard.

>>33813074
Or rather, as history shows, they were completely pointless and the program might as well not have happened at all.

>>33821264
Front loaded means it can't be longer than is practical to reach out in front. The G11 is in no way reloadable without unshouldering it. Side loaded means you can slot in as long of a magazine as you like, so as long as it anchors properly at the far end.

>>33821419
G11 is also way longer (half again the length), the mag was way longer and it had to be slid in in down the trough. So it has to be basically put in position aligned perfectly with the magwell and then translated (in the mathematical sense I mean) into the magwell.

The P90 mag can come in at an angle, and almost rocked or rotated down into place once you hit the end. Using a flared magwell that pushes it into position as you drag it ,along the top of the receiver, and home. This makes this less finicky than the G11 and simpler current P90's procedure of slide mag in under the top and forward along the receiver, and then push down home.

I didn't mean use the G11's actual magazine attachment, you'd keep the P90's method , it was just the only gun I could think of that was loaded from the front.

I don't know that I'm explaining that well. Its late in this country and I'm still jetlagged af.

>Side loaded means you can slot in as long of a magazine as you like, so as long as it anchors properly at the far end.

What do you mean by side loaded? Like a Sten? Like a p90 but with the magazine on one side? Or like a P90 with the mag on top but you put in the end, rotate around that end kinda like using a wrench where the "nut" would be the far end where it anchors?

>>33816642
Can you design me a PDW the exact shape of a violin case?

>>33812764
Our police force and special forces use them

>>33821478
>What do you mean by side loaded?
I meant exactly like the last idea you wrote. Truly ambidextrous, allows for a full length top rail and technically drop-free if you rotate the gun sideways. If you are right handed; unlock and rotate right to let it fall out to the right while your left hand fishes for a new mag, then insert it from the left. Might need side tabs or wings to hold on to when locking it into place.

Should I let my bf rent a PS90 and Five-Seven? What about a long barrel P90?

>>33818084
>The AR won't penetrate AR500
Nigger do I have some unfortunate news for you regarding 5.7 and AR500...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sd1iMlC1ALk
>or fragment
Even bog standard M193 fragments reliably out to 25 yards from 10.5 barrels, so take a guess what optimized ammo like 55gr. TSX does.
>louder
It's a fucking gun you mongoloid.
>more recoil
I want you to actually shoot a 10.5 AR and look god in the eye and say it has recoil issues.

>>33821583
>>33818084
>The AR wont penetrate AR500

With level III plates and up close (<50 yd), hot 55gr like XM193 most definitely will, even out of 16" barrels.
Out of a 20" barrel it will sail right through even at ~100 yd.

>>33821534
How do you do the top rail? With a top loaded mag, like the P90 or my idea, if you let go of the mag, it sits on the receiver and can then be let go and pushed into place.

With yours, how does your hand hold the mag in place to push into into engagement? Eventually the mag needs to sit under the top rail and isn't locked into place until its there. There isn't clearance for your fingers there.

If the top rail is open on both sides (which it has to be to be ambi), you can't rotate the gun sideways and let it sit like you can on the top of the receiver as you move your fingers to finish the "wrench rotate" into position. It'll be partially supported by the top of the receiver then, but it still seems easy to fumble.

The only solution I can think of is to lock it in when it slides in initially and then have the magwell rotate into position with the mag. But that seems complicated.

>>33821547
Yes

>>33821583
Dude said Pistol Caliber, not Pistol. So posting a video of it fired from a pistol, and not a PCC length barrel doesn't prove your point.

And volume matters. Part of the role for PDWs and short rifles is for truck drivers/rear echelon personnel/etc who are often indoors/in enclosed spaces and not wearing ear pro as a matter of course.

>>33821707
>posting a video of it fired from a pistol, and not a PCC length barrel doesn't prove your point.
protip, it still won't penetrate the plate from a PCC. sorry.

>>33821707
The round still won't penetrate AR500 from a P90, and the users will still be fucking deaf from magdumping a P90 from the interior of a vehicle just as they would with a short AR. These points are moot.

>>33821707

The SS190 was never meant to defeat level III armor and it won't, not even out of a P90 (or even PS90, or loaded into a 5.56 case).
It will go through IIIA just fine out of a P90, but so will a lot of other stuff.

>>33821719
>>33821763
>>33821765
Didn't say it would. Just that showing it out of a pistol barrel doesn't prove the point.

I'll concede that they'll still be deaf, but hearing damage will absolutely be worse long term.

>>33811953
>Why does it seem like they haven't done much?

Stargate SG1 stopped production.

>>33821763
Use suppressors then.

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>>33821707
>With yours, how does your hand hold the mag in place to push into into engagement?
Hold it by the circular end, push in the butt of the magazine to the front cup-like anchor point of the rifle, then rotate it into line with the actual magwell. As you push it in to the side you slide your fingers off the top of the mag and let your thumb push the rest of the way. Once in place you hold a curved side tab and push it down to lock. There should be wiggle room rather than a tight fit between the top rail and the receiver.

It should be spring loaded with a weak one so that it pops up from pressing the eject button somewhere, whether its for the firing or the off hand to use. Then the wiggle space is enough for it to fall out. The magwell accepting the circular cartridge rotator may be an angled ramp to help guide it into position as well as help it slide out on its own without getting stuck.

>>33811953
because they're a meme weapon, taylor made for plebby autists.

>>33812882
Mrs. Harris, is that you?

>>33821875
Do those winglets on the magazine stick out? Seems intrusive.

>>33822009
They have to stick out a bit, that's the only way to have enough leverage to push (pull?) it downwards. At least no more intrusive than a non-folding charging handle.

>>33821875
Makes sense.
Still think the last stage of insertion is going to be problematic. Bit clumsy to push down on the side of the magazine, makes for annoying and less stack-able mags. Remember those mags aren't just loaded into the gun - they need to be stored in vests and pouches, they need to stack in boxes for transport etc. etc.

Foresee a lot of not-quite-locked in mags, and the manipulation is still really close to the operator. Might be able to make the locking more reliable if you could make charging the rifle seat the magazine.

Personally I prefer my flared magwell idea better, just keep pushing it in until it won't go anymore and it's locked in. Seems simpler in stressful environments, but I understand yours a lot better now.

Is the P90 feed mechanism patented? Its pretty similar to the Hill smg, so it might not be. Be cool to see other companies or even FN themselves experiment with it.

>>33812886
I want kriss vector 5.56 or 7.62 to happen. The bolt system sounds amazing for rifle and intermediate cartridges.

>>33822183
One way to ensure the mag is locked in is to reach over the rail and push both wings down with your fingers and thumb. The image is obviously not to scale so it should be within reach.

There's another idea I just thought of when you mentioned seating it with the charging handle. Perhaps instead of pushing down to seat, it is actually pushed backwards by a spring at the very front end of the rifle, back into some holding section of the receiver. Charging it could then engage whatever arcane mechanism to get it to feed. Not drop-free in this case but more secure and when you shove it in the only way its going to stay put is if it gets pushed exactly where it needs to go, so you know if it isn't seated right. Then again, that introduces the risk that the spring will send it flying off out the other side of the rifle, oh well.

>>33821875
love the mspainting

>>33811953
>What happened with these?
USSR died main market for PDW disappeared with NATO reduction. All that happens with PDW after was nearly dead fishes flopping on the dry ground.

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>>33812057
I fucking hate the MP7 so goddamn much.
Is there a gun with a more punchable face?

>>33812764
Why haven't FN or anyone else made a P90 or similar in 9mm Parabellum or 10mm Auto?

>>33817666
No one thought to Czech my Satan trips? What the fuck are you people even doing?

>>33823829
>>>/b/

>>33822239
It wouldn't work for rifle cartridges though. It would be prohibitively heavy and bulky. Honestly the Russian counterweight system is probably the best recoil management system for rifles out there that I am aware of.

>>33823808
4.7mm seems like a total waste of time. There comes a point where it's just too dam small.i think ballistically 6.5mm is a sweet spot

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>>33823808

>>33812065
>>33812094
Gee how about stopping production of shit cartridges and adopt a new one which performs better than the standard we have today?

NATO are a heap of fucking retards.

>>33824737
9mm loads like M/39b goes through level IIIA body armor, same as 5.7x28mm. The only real advantage it has is that you can cram a couple of extra rounds in the magazine.

>>33814312
That's pretty much the F2000 though, right?

>>33825396
No

>>33821804
>Just that showing it out of a pistol barrel doesn't prove the point.
>decides to be a pedant over what type of weapon is being used to show SS109 does fuckall against AR500
>goes on to say that they'll both be totally deaf if the weapons in question are fired in enclosed spaces without any hearing protection, but with the AR they'll be more totally deaf
Wew

>>33821494
Henrietta is that you?

Saw Tanzanian special forces with this stuff. I guess theyre dumping it to Africa now.

>>33812685
well, it all started when your nigger father busted inside of a crack whore.

>>33824661
By what fucking metric? Complexity? You are referring to the An-94 right? The only gun more complex is the g11, which we all know runs on kraut space magic

>>33816501
it would need to go faster and have a steel or tungsten penetrator. the shape is nearly irrelevant. you want around 1,700 - 2,000 fps to punch through lightweight body armor. Out of pistols, .22 TCM has some promise in that arena.

>>33813121
B A R R E L B U R N E R
A
R
R
E
L

B
U
R
N
E
R

>>33823819
Calico's M950 comes to mind, and configuring a P90 to shoot 10 Auto or 9x19 would result in a total redesign of the gun since the system and ejection was literally made for 5.7x28's case

>>33826877
10mm Auto or 10mm Magnum would be perfectly fine, as they are straight walled. Extraction would have to be modified, but feeding should be fine. Roller-delayed blowback to deal with the increased pressure. Done.

>>33828064
Except that roller delayed blowback is shit.

>>33818019
>still weighs more and is much much bulkier than a pistol
>has ABSOLUTELY DOGSHIT wounding capability with any ammo a uniformed military would issue
>still can't penetrate plates
For a gun designed to replace a pistol it offers none of the benefits of a pistol while also offering only 1 of the benefits of a rifle (being able to reliably hit people past 25m with the lowest tier of training).

The Steyr TMP/B&T offerings/MP7 filled the role MUCH MUCH better. What with weighing EVEN LESS, fitting in a holster, and actually having terminal performance.

>>33828169
Then lever-delayed, faggot.

>>33828169
nah it's fine. Better than straight blowback at least

>>33825869
Absolutely it doesn't prove shit. I've seen 5.7 out of a pistol fail to properly penetrate a ballistic gel target after going through a Level II vest. Obviously that doesn't mean the round can't do that, its just shit out of a pistol.

It won't penetrate III but that the video posted isn't proof to the first guy and I wanna see the video to see if it does any damage at all to the plate.

>goes on to say that they'll both be totally deaf if the weapons in question are fired in enclosed spaces without any hearing protection, but with the AR they'll be more totally deaf

Are you literally retarded? There's a difference between temporary deafness and long term hearing damage. You aren't going to be permanently and completely deaf from either, so magnitude of exposure matters.

>>33829079
>There's a difference between temporary deafness and long term hearing damage.
>You aren't going to be permanently and completely deaf from either
Then both are temporary. And unless you have a document detailing how a P90's report will only lead to short-term temporary deafness and an AR's report will lead to long-term you're just blowing smoke out of your asshole

>>33829079
>Absolutely it doesn't prove shit.
>and I wanna see the video to see if it does any damage at all to the plate.
Here you whiny fucking pedantic bitch (who apparently can't google for shit)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56zSSB3H66Y
Oh no, it still didn't pen AR500. Whodathunk, guess that changes everything.
>There's a difference between temporary deafness and long term hearing damage.
Oh my god you are so goddamned awful at this. I can only guess you own a PS90 and have hardcore buyer's remorse. I dare you to provide one fucking piece of evidence to your implied claim.

So congratulations, 5.7 doesn't go through AR500 and the P90 will still fuck up your hearing. I guess you were trying to win something here, but fuck knows what that exactly was unless you thought you were in a tournament for autistic semantics. In that case, I guess you won shortround.

>>33828306
>Wanting delayed blowback at all
Oh look, a retard

I'd honestly like to see some documentation on the P90 being any quieter, at least to the degree that damage is drastically reduced to the eardrums, than an SBR AR unsuppressed since both apparently clock in around 155 decibels.

>>33829627
> Posts fucking LF and sporting ammo not SS190 or any of the rounds designed for AP.

Literally in the description, in the video and a complaint about it as the top comment.

> P90 will still fuck up your hearing.
Yes but less. Both will cause damage. Both will cause temporary deafness. 5.56 out of a 10.5 will cause more damage.

Can you into reading comprehension?

>>33826548
No, I'm not talking about the an-94. The ak-107 also has a counter balance system. It's not much different from the prototype an94's except it was designed to be simpler and cheaper to produce. It's really not any where near as complex as a g11

Also,
>by what fucking metric
by the felt recoil and muzzle rise metric. It's basically non existent in 5.45

I was going to buy one but went with Tavor

>>33829639
>he doesn't want an MP5
what a faglord

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>hearing damage
laughing_krauts.jpg

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>>33826548
>>33830059
got a picture for this. Yellow part is the counter balance

>>33829898
>5.56 out of a 10.5 will cause more damage.
Please read >>33829551

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>>33830478

>people are arguing over which gun will make you less deaf and which gun more deaf and whether a round that has been long since proven to not be able to penetrate Level III plates can penetrate it or not
What level of 'tism even is this now?

>>33829079
> I wanna see the video to see if it does any damage at all to the plate.
Jesus dude, not even him, but I don't know why it's so hard to come to terms with this extremely well established fact...if the SS190 won't manage it out of a freaking 20" barrel, do you think it has a prayer out of a 10.4"?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpIUKMXugUU

>>33830449
>He wants a heavy ancient weak irrelevant piece of shit
What a faglord

>>33812764
You need to setup a neverending stream that's just constant reruns of Stargate.

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>>33821719
>>33821763
>>33821765
>>33821804
>>33825869
>>33829079
>>33829627
>>33829898
>>33830700
>>33830663

HOLY SHIT YOU DENSE MOTHERFUCKERS.
You keep sperging out at each other when both sides fucking agree.

> Both sides said it won't pen a LVL3 plate.
Which is obviously true
>One guy says he wants to see what if it leaves divots in the plate.
Who the fuck know why but thats also fine

The fuck are you arguing about?

>>33821875
Hate to be the CoD kiddo, but isn't this entire idea just the pdw-57 from BlOps 2?

>>33831581
>pdw-57
Sounds like it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOWQqab84PE

(ignore the shitty music and editing)

>>33820978
You mean you don't already know the information presented in those videos? Then you need to lurk more newfag.

>>33813055
>but the logistics problem of an additional ammo type

We used over half a dozen different ammo types in WW2 and we managed just fine. Why is it only now such a huge problem?

>>33821380
>Or rather, as history shows, they were completely pointless

Technically everything NATO did was completely pointless as WW3 never happened.

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>>33813055
>but the logistics problem of an additional ammo type
PDW also covers pistol ammo, dude. So no additional type.

>>33831820
but anon, what if everything NATO did was what preventing WW3 from happening? We'd have to create an alternate timeline to find out

>>33831807
>Why is it only now such a huge problem?

It was a problem then as well. But fixing it requires adopting new weapons, changing out current weapon and ammo stocks, building or retrofitting factories.

We couldn't afford to sacrifice the production time at the time so we just bore the additional cost until we had time to deal with it.

Right now we have no pressing issues mandating constant production, so why introduce a cost and hassle we don't need to? That money might be better spent elsewhere.

Though much of the same argument applies to pistols, which rarely get used so idk.

>>33828237
>MP7 filled the role MUCH MUCH better

Germany please.

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Should I get an MPA57 and pretend it's an MP7? arm braces are a thing. Someone needs to make a wire arm brace.

>>33832215
Bump fire arm brace.

>>33820961
You are literally a nogun retard. Go hold a sbr ps90

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>>33832328
That's a good idea, but it wouldn't work on a MPA57. The magazine goes into the grip, so you can't make the grip move back and forth. You would have to make one of the bump firing board things like in this picture. It'd be kind of bulky to carry around and not as cool.

>>33811953
No one who needs to carry a PDW will ever fire a shot in anger anyway. If someone who ought to carry a PDW is in a spot where they need a personal weapon, they're already being cracked in the head with a bottle or their vehicle (and thus they) are already on fire

>>33832504
>No one who needs to carry a PDW will ever fire a shot in anger anyway.
whats it like to be wrong all the time

>>33832527
>hmm im here safe in my tank
>should i drive the tank away from all these RPGs or try to snipe them down with my P90

>decisions, decisions

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>>33832530
>tank crews never leave their tank
>nothing ever happens behind the wire

>>33832556
tank crews shouldnt leave their tank and people """""""""""""""""""""behind the wire"""""""""""""""""""""" should be armed with full length rifles unless there is some serious space consideration in play, such as, say, "being inside of a tank and preferring not to leave the tank unless it is safe"

basically PDWs should only be issued to people who have serious space considerations, and if you have serious space considerations, you probably shouldnt be getting into running gun battles because you are either inside a vehicle that you would be more effective inside of than outside of, or are

actually nah thats about the only place for a PDW, inside a tight vehicle that you'd rather not leave

>>33813055
You must have a big stockpile of m4/m16/ar15 variant rifles to be such a big denial on PDWs.

>>33832608
welcome to canada, nigga

>>33816366
>more compact
>weights 90% as much as etc etc
>but have nearly double the ammo cap


Gee, i dunno timmy. The maths don't add up.

>>33817847
Most rich ass dictator countries uses it for their secret services and royal family along side the ol'mp5 as the old backup workhorse.

It's not a bad thing, some country is just more open minded when comes to weapon adoption.

>>33832579
Basically idea was to issue PDW to everyone whose MOS is not a 11B or national equivalent. Basically in US it ended with adopting 5.56x45 PDW (M4) as weapon for everyone.

>>33831581
>>33831663
I had completely forgotten about the PDW-57, but you're somewhat right, it is similar. The difference is that the PDW-57 only allows it to go in one way and so has a much tighter clearance between the top rail and the mag (actually no real clearance), so the mechanism is probably more solid.

Both methods achieve the subgoal of allowing a full length rail on a weapon with a top mounted magazine.

>>33832215
The ugly levels are off the chart

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>>33832914
I think it's mainly the muzzle brake and the huge block of steel in the back. If they made it with more polymer and a different or removable muzzle brake it would be pretty awesome. It's a cool idea though. I just want little MP7 things.

>>33832788
Game one is shit for ambi. Good luck trying to reload that left handed in any reasonable length of time. Least with other rifles the worse you get as a lefty is brass in your face.

>>33830502
How do you clean that double piston?

>>33831227
One guy seems to be demanding the other side post an exact kind of video proving a point he himself apparently knows and acknowledges as correct...it's rather perplexing.

>>33831807
It was a huge problem then. Why do you think everyone was bending over backwards trying to get standardization in ammo and arms (along with combining weapon roles into one gun) in the 1950s?

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>>33833866
I think he was just being autistic about the technical correctness of the word "proof". Strictly speaking a video of it out of a pistol barrel doesn't /prove/ its performance out a rifle barrel.

That or he was trying to goad them into finding a video. He did shut up after >>33830700 was posted.

>>33833725
What am I missing? Why is it different to cleaning any piston? Disassemble and if necessary use a snake.

>>33834160
>autistic about the technical correctness
That'd be a bit hypocritical since he repeatedly spouted that incredibly unverified bit about the P90 being markedly better for your hearing.
>goading
This seems more likely.

He should get some help either way.

>or at least bridge the gap between them and assault rifles
5.7 has less goddamn joules than even 9mm how the fuck is that gonna bridge the gap between 5.56 and 9mm?

>>33835311
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpnnh-0YEbk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNfp2LtfTHc
Kinetic Energy TRANSFER


>inb4 i want to use prohibited dum-dum bullets and be sent to Gulag

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>>33835311
>he doesn't know about wound vectors

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>>33814222

>>33832571
>tank crews shouldnt leave their tank

We do.

So many retards in this thread, reminder that temporary wound cavities and energy don't mean shit and that penetration and permanent wound sizes are all that matter.

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>>33811953
>>33812827
>>33812852
>>33816632
>>33821840

>>33812886
i want one in 10mm

>>33837882
>Geez bill why do you get TWO magazines?
Don't the sent cases fall out the magwell on that upper?

>>33831746
>He's trying so hard to fit in

>>33837993
yeah and right into that emptied out and lip cut off AR mag so you dont have to pick up any brass...nice

>>33837882

>p90 mag
>usgi mag

Wut

>>33838465
>>33838031

>>33811953
We had to ship them all off across the galaxy to fight the Goa'uld.

>>33812886
5.7 Vector plz

>>33813101
>"Colt Commando"
>Is actually XM177E2
>Dank pic tho bro

>>33813149
When you really get into it, they're both just smol M16s. Different variants, and yes, different animals.

>>33813413
As cancerous as those carbine/PDWs look, i want to know more about this image.

>>33814222
The companion pistol was also chambered in 5.7mm, hence the name.

>>33811953
Hey guys... Anyone see Singapore's CPW? It's better than the MP7 or P90. As for now, it's in 9mm. But they're working on some easy 5.7mm and 4.6mm conversion kits.

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>>33811953
The P90 hasn't, but there are other that are actually used by civilians in other calibers (SBRs) and the military.

>>33811953
They realized you could Carbinize an assault rifle and it would just about do the same job.

The problem with PDW is the weight not just the size. The P-90 for example is an 8 pound gun. So is the M-4. An Uzi is also 8 pounds even though its smaller.

(wtf is it with this 8 pound shit?)
(with carbon fiber they can get an M-4 down to 4.5 pounds)

MP-7 might be of a suitable class, but nobody picked it up. Its like a bodyguard weapon, limited supply (like the Beretta M93 was).

Only part I dont like about the MP-7 is the caliber, and the fact it doesn't have 60 rounds. Im not fond of the design, but it fits in my book, the definition of a PDW with those features.

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>>33812886
I saw "10mm" on that display...

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>>33838805

> this... probably
> :sigh:

>>33839208
Its been out for like six months-a year

>>33837329

> 5.7x28mm weighs 1.6g and goes 715m/s
> 9x19mm weighs 8g and goes 370m/s

> 5.7mm = 410 Joules
> 9mm = 550 Joules

sounds like a 9mm is actually more powerful

>>33832215
>>33832914
>>33833027
im more miffed over the magazine capacity
isnt this thing like a 9 rounder? I may have it confused with something else.

I know there's a rather long barreled pistol chambered in 5.7mm, its also a low capacity thing but it looks all accurate and shit.

>>33831581
>>33831663
>>33832788

Sometimes games hit the nail on the head, that PDW-57 is one sweet operator toy.

Somebody ought to take some of these game guns and make them real and pitch them. Not all mind you, but every once in awhile you get a real gem.

> The MSMC i think its called actually is based on a real gun, an MP-7 clone from india chambered in a proprietary 5.56x30mm.

>>33839264
I thought the kriss was dead, like a circa 2003 fascination. I havent paid attention to it for years because I discovered a muzzle brake/compensator can achieve the same benefits the kriss was talking about.

> mfw they had the audacity to say they was going to make a .50bmg version of the kriss as well as a 12 gauge version, yknow based on the same recoil dampening ability.

>>33823829
>>33817666
>>33826666

you fool

mass is more important for penetration than velocity

you're looking at 60 grains for a .22-ish caliber projectile, and it needs to be hard enough not to deform

> stick a 5.56 EPR in a 5.7x28 case, even with the lower velocity it will probably do it

>>33837882
AR57 looks so front heavy. How is it to fire?

>>33839300
It uses Five seven magazines, so 20 or 30 rounds.

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>>33840119
I think this is what I was confused with, something called the accelerator pistol. Looks accurate, but you can never tell. Id get the .22wmr version before the 5.7mm because ammo is easier to get.

>>33813413
Why do Euro swat teams always cover their faces? i dont notice this in US units

>>33812753
>>33812779

>Tired "bullpups put the weight into your shoulder" meme

Most everyone I've ever talked to or watched/read says the balance is weird, negating the rearward shift and anyone that says conventional designs (well, mostly the AR and AK) are too "unbalanced" or "heavy" or whatever are fucking morons that don't set up their stocks and stances and shit right. This isn't even mentioning slings and shit.

Bullpups are the shittest of shit-tier weapons, no wonder so many countries are dropping them like the plague. This is coming from someone who loves the KSG and P90 and will probably get the MDR if it ever fucking releases.

>>33818084

>M855A1, Mk262, Mk318 don't exist
>Not to even mention rounds unrestricted by The Hague Convention.

>>33813533
The op never says anything about individuals carrying smgs. He is merely asking about the concept of PDW's that NATO had been looking at. The Hughes amendment and NFA are irrelevant to his post.

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>>33821583
>I want you to actually shoot a 10.5 AR and look god in the eye and say it has recoil issues.
Proper test would shooting AR vs P90 on burst and full auto and comparing spread. Even COD kiddies have better science methodology than your post.

>>33841643
Balance is better if done right. Aug is the only bullpup that I've used that actually had good balance. Tavor was all fucked, and the RFB was back heavy.

But still, saying it can't be true simply because everyone thinks it "feels weird" is silly. When you get used to shooting with a particular balance it would naturally feel weird if the weight were balanced in another fasion

>>33839171
>P-90 for example is an 8 pound gun.
stop talking out of your ass.