Daily Japanese Thread DJT #1810

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lX6W_6pqUDA

>>71127250
answer me, does the japanese youth even have the tiniest bit of freedom?

We all talk about Intermediate Hell a lot, but what about Beginner Hell? That time frame where you know enough grammar to be able to read sentences with the help of a dictionary, but you're still too slow to consider manga or games? I mean you could read a manga but you would be going at a page every half hour.

Arguably worse than Intermediate Hell. At least in Intermediate Hell you can still do enjoyable stuff.

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>兼 = cum (e.g. bedroom-cum-study)

>>71129694
yea I remember when I bought very early on some book with japanese short stories in parallel text

It took me about 10 minutes to read and understand the first two sentences on my own

>>71129987

ラテン語の言葉なんでしょう

>>71128463
Right, leave it to the cannibal BDSM watersporter to call numbing yourself "freedom".

Japan is the polar opposite of your average American Pie protagonist, both are bad and destructive on individual levels, but the Yamato way brings progress for society.

Even Yakuza takes it easy, no sense in looking for a reflection of your own culture in another.
But you can find a lot of dub/reggae/big room being made, and wig- jiggers? trying to copy (superficially) these degenerate characteristics. Nothing that goes past the aesthetics, though, and they are probably not fully aware of how disgusting it is from an educated Western's perspective. It's just exotic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuJDhFRDx9M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzWJvDTfWyc

日本語話さない

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>>71130110
Not this one? I liked it. I had a bunch of stories by Soseki

>>71130220
Oh, I just remembered, there are some secret gay clubs out there, everyone dresses like your average kinky boxhead, but the parties per se are pretty mild/friendly, no fisting people inside-out while giving your grandchildren fetal alcohol syndrome.

>>71130294
it was another one, I have this one too though

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https://www.reddit.com/r/LearnJapanese/comments/5sv3gu/tae_kim_vs_imabi_a_discussion/

>One quality that the creator of Tae Kim lacks which I've embraced for quite a lot time has been humility, and I believe it serves as the core difference between our philosophies and the stance of veterans here that disapprove of his work.

this guy needs to stop

>>71130220
I'm looking of course for a japanese version of a teenager movie, not something exactly like american ones, but there's just no way that there aren't at least some japanese teenagers who to get shit-faced at least once
one part of youth is about overstepping your boundaries and I think this is universal, but whenever I watch a movie with japanese teenagers it's always so neatly placed within the social norms and only bending them at times

>>71129694

残らずすべての日本語のレベルがヘルなんだ

ここから逃げ出せない

>>71130872
You know how it's impossible not to have a Health Care plan in Germany, because you will be practically unable to do anything?

That's how it goes for people who deviate too much in Japan, all doors close. It's fine to be quirky until you cross the line.

The most Westernized movie I've seen is probably Lesson of the Evil, the whole school feels rather copypasted from cheap American horror thrillers.
Not sure if it fits the bill, though.

>>71130544
Who fucking cares? His site is good. Tae Kim is also a cunt and his site is also good. That's all that matters in the end.

>>71130872
Why not just watch one of the countless generic American teen movies? I thought the point of immersing yourself in Japanese culture was to enjoy and learn about its unique aspects, and not to consume cheap pastiches of Western shit.

>>71130544
no idea who that is or why I should care

>>71131262
>and not to consume cheap pastiches of Western shit.
there's a universally existing phenomenon called teenagers being dumb fucks and I was looking for the japanese version of it, but forget it

>I thought the point of immersing yourself in Japanese culture was to enjoy and learn about its unique aspects
what are some unique aspects to you?

and don't pretend that you didn't start with japanese because of mango and animu or equally autistic stuff

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懲りない人です

Do items from the Amazon JP Marketplace have international shipping? All the ones I've tried to add tell me shipping isn't available for my address.

Is there any recommended practice material to go along with Tae Kim? I'm well past the lessons with practice exercises and starting to worry about how well I'm retaining this. Do I just push through it and refer back to stuff as needed?

How much Japanese would I be required to know for postgraduate study in its capital

>>71129694
You dont understand, ur hell is literally a few weeks or months. you'll get there soon enough.

お前たちの誰か本当に日本語わかるのか

>in its capital
excuse me this is off topic, but it's hard for me to realize which that part means either place or wealth.

>>71130544
Knew it was the burgers who were the autistic shitposters keeping these threads on /a/ full of irrelevant personalised bullshit. You can see similar petty bullshit now in the /jp/ threads.
Thanks for injecting a bit more of your cancer into these threads, anon. Really necessary, screencaps of two+ year old posts from another website.

>>71136260
He means in Toyko.

>>71134525
I generally have to go through a third party who does international shipping to get things to ship here. It costs a bit extra but since most of the stuff I order is small it's not too bad.

はい 僕日本語わかります

>>71136285
T, Thanks for your kind. but I have to seek hidden intetion behind China

>昨日はどこに行きたの
The の makes it "Where were you going yesterday" as opposed to "Where did you go yesterday" right?

>>71136380
We want payback for Nanjing, we'll take Dongjing (Tokyo) in exchange :^)

>>71136771
昨日はどこに行ったの?
The の is a casual sentence ending sometimes implying a reason or sense of intention behind doing something.
It can be used in questions or statements and doesn't have any bearing on tye literal meaning of the sentence.

>>71136822
I see, thank you

>>71136260
With "capital" meaning a place, it often has an article or other small word before it, such as "the capital" or "its capital". Example: "I want to see the capital" would definitely mean a place to a native English speaker. Otherwise, they'd say "I want to see the money".

With "capital" meaning wealth, since it is a uncountable plural noun kind of like "water", it often has no article/other small word before it. For example: "Does Microsoft have enough capital for that?" or "Capital losses exceed 5 million." Most of the time, "capital" meaning wealth is used in the context of businesses.

Hope that helps.

>>71136926
>kind of like "water", it often has no article/other small word before it
great. I'll put this in my mind

>>71124509
There's a problem with your OS's text rendering. Don't know what to tell you. Maybe add another font in front of the ones in the deck in the CSS.

君たち外人は女目当ての不純な動機だから日本語を習得出来ないのだよ

What is the origin behind 大人しい? I've noticed a lot of い-adjectives feature しい in particular as a suffix but I'm not sure why. And I don't know what being an adult has to do with being quiet/docile.

>>71106645
i'd argue that for a japanese learner who can't ask native speakers, the easiest materials to understand are newspapers, news broadcasts, textbooks etc, basically anything that does not contain direct communication between people (and to an extent, spoken language forms, even if those can be crammed), because as soon as you have people speaking to each other, you start getting omissions of things that are actually implicit but cannot be seen by the new learner.

i believe that one thing that is not focused enough in japanese language materials is this - the omissions of subject and object and how they are made implicit. it's often claimed that japanese is confusing because you can't tell who does what when it's actually there, just hidden. a very simple example is how と思う can only refer to the speaker's thoughts. Aさんは昨日来たと思う is thus "I think A came yesterday" not "A thinks (someone) came yesterday". if your understanding of this is not good, many manga may actually be very hard to read.

i think kanji play a huge role as well because they block native material use. when i studied korean i used to sit in the library and read some philosophy essay collection to practice hangul. i obviously didn't understand a word, yet i felt as if i was actually reading because i could pronounce everything. when there's a kanji you can't read, you can't even voice it. it might be hard to guess that 目をこする means rub one's eyes, but at least you can learn that こする is something you can do with eyes. it's impossible to guess both meaning and pronunciation of 目を擦る.

if i designed course materials i'd work very hard to reinforce the basics of how actors and the other roles are marked in the different voices, as well as how they are made implicit and can be omitted, and complex subordinate clauses.

>>71137501
It used to be exactly what it sounds like, but the meaning changed a bit over time.

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>>71137606
So just a shift of meaning from "mature/adultlike"... Okay, thanks.

Also, I'm seeing Japanese streetsign captchas now, even though the instructions are in English. They're often hard to make out, though.

>>71137399
確かに三次元の豚雌だけが目的なら日本語を習得出来るわけない
でも二次元の可愛い女の子のためならなんでも出来る!二次元に不可能はない!

>>71137605
>目を擦る
Well not quite. If you have experience with kanji to an extent you can simply take it apart, where 擦 simply becomes 手 + 察 with the second part being more or less irrelevant to the actual meaning. So you can't get the entire meaning, but you can know that it [probably] means doing an action that generically involves hands to your eyes. You don't really do anything to your eyes with your hand except rub it. It's not enough to actually get the meaning down but it can sometimes be enough for you to guess what a phrase means even missing a kanji or two, because there's only a few things it [can] mean. And both 擦 and 察 [can] be pronounced さつ, although that's not really useful here.

>>71137605
>basically anything that does not contain direct communication between people
Avoiding sweeping classes of language is exactly what you MUST NOT do when giving language learners consumption material.

>>71137810
When I was learning English my first "real" material were gaming magazines, then the New York and London Times. I'd say that it's ironically easier to understand newspapers and magazines despite their higher standard because they have to conform to style and are paid to communicate ideas clearly and without ambiguity to the general public. In normal speech other the other hand strict rules get blurred and many things that are implict are left unsaid which while useful to people learning the language can also be extremely confusing. Reading more formally written stuff can help you grasp the actual language through reinforcement in the same way reading (well-written) novels can help you write more coherently in general.

>>71137854
The problem is not what's easier to understand, the problem is what you're reading has to contain the language features that you need the most, because otherwise you're going to acquire them late.

>>71137866
Perhaps because I was focusing on English for use in formal writing and not in everyday speech then.

>>71137501
>>71137637
also about the しい thing, it was originally a separate class of adjectives in classical Japanese called -shiku adjectives which developed later on, and are generally used to describe more subjective, personal, emotional, etc ideas.
The other class is called -ku adjectives. 高く for example. The only difference between the two classes is that the 終止形 of -shiku adjectives completely removes the く at the end instead of replacing it with a し. So while the 終止形 of 高く would be 高し, the 終止形 of 悲しく would just be 悲し.
That's gone from modern grammar, so both types now function the same.

>>71137904
There are rules in written language that can't be acquired naturally unless you know way too much of the language, *or* know certain founding rules from the spoken language. This is why so many people that have been studying technical fields in english for a long time (5+ years of engineering experience, for example) still make technical mistakes or misinterpret things like "five to the power of four".

Spoken material may seem more difficult from an analytical perspective because it uses rules of grammar and nuances that aren't stated explicitly in textbooks, but that's the *exact reason* that you have to consume it as a learner.

>>71137946
>but that's the *exact reason* that you have to consume it as a learner.

Is it really ideal though to have it be learned early on though? Seems like it would just cause more confusion.

>>71137967
It does the opposite because the rules and nuances stated in textbooks are just organized versions of the ones used in speech, making them easier to remember.

This is another reason VNs are pretty good learning material: Not just dialogue, not just narration, and each helps you understand the other.

But reading is for fags and if all you care about is learning japanese quickly you should just watch drama and variety shows.

>>71137974
If I'm getting this right, you're saying that learning the rules in the textbook way in the first place, makes it harder to learn the "natural" spoken version, but the other way around makes completing the process easier?

>>71138002
If you learn formal grammar you get weird misconceptions about how the language psychologically works. If you've ever seen ESLs argue about really weird unintelligible english rules like the behavior of putting adverbs in different places, this is the reason: not enough natural grammar.

>>71137800
you're absolutely correct. but not being able to voice it really blocks the reading process which i believe is very negative for new readers. (if i remember correctly こする for 擦る is not a joyo reading either)

>>71137810
i didn't say anything about avoiding any kind of native material. i'm just stating that those are among the easiest to understand for learners, paradoxically, because while the vocab is advanced, you can at least look it up. you can't really look up a whole sentence without subject when you're thinking "hey, how do the speaker and listener know who's doing what?", and i think language learning materials should focus this much, much more than they do in my experience. this as a reply to the fact that many non-beginners can't read manga.

>>71138022
Guess my plan of reading manga instead of doing anki is going to pay off :^)

>>71138022
>and i think language learning materials should focus this much, much more than they do in my experience. this as a reply to the fact that many non-beginners can't read manga.

I think it would be very hard to teach it generally though. A lot of it just comes down to things like getting used to which verbs are transitive and intransitive, and what situations certain grammar structures and words are used in. So it basically comes along with learning all the grammar and vocab. But instead of memorizing it all it's easier just to read for a bit since after you've seen each structure a few times you get a good idea of who it might apply to.

>>71137924
Ahh, that's interesting. Thanks, I'll keep that in mind as I go. Learning about these inflection bases is tough, but I can tell it helps.

>>71138261
It's a lot easier to look into this stuff once you already have all the basics down for sure. You don't want to have to put serious work into memorizing it because to be honest it's effectively useless in terms of production, and still rare elsewhere.
I dug into it around a year after I started. None of it is anything that would give you a major breakthrough with modern Japanese, but yeah, it definitely does help. A lot of hazy guesswork around old-fashioned grammar gets cleared up.

>>71138443
That makes sense. I'm not worrying too much if I don't have it all memorized; my hope is that the general idea of it helps me memorize the production rules.

>tfw almost finished tae kim with only 200 mature core cards because i keep forgetting them

how much of tae kim should I do in a day

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Pic related is 啄む( it just looks different) on jisho it says it means peck, but Google says it means scold.
I normally translate Kanji words with Google as I can write the Kanji and It notices quite well.
Should I stop with Google? I don't know how many other words I understand wrong because of it.

at least google translation isn't a dictionary and it's notorious for its inaccurate translation like suggesting ungrammatical sentences as response

>>71135519
I do not know much about 東京大学, but I've heard from people that got accepted in other universities in Japan that it isn't required to have a prior knowledge in Japanese. Although you will be required to take Japanese classes, and it will feel like they're on steroids if you don't have any knowledge prior.

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>管理区みたな浜

管理区 would be 'managed zone' or something I'd guess at first read, but no idea what it's supposed to mean here, anyone have a clue? Is it some sort of esoteric Moon property zoning thing or something?

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>>71061579
ヤマノススメ
Volume 13 is up.
https://mega.nz/#F!od53HYaQ!5QA5GvyPxbhwQoI-3J-WqQ

>>71140575
That's a little odd. Google isn't really a dictionary, though. You're much better off using Google Translate to write in the kanji, if you must, then use something like Jisho.

>>71142200
ここはウチの会社の私有地…
This is private property of the company...
社員の保養目的に使っている所ですから...
It's for the health and leisure of our staff...

>管理区みたいな浜なんですよ
The beach is like/looks like a natural preservation area.
Looks like a wildlife preserve, sort of thing, because it's owned by the company and they keep it for their employees and not the general public. That sort of thing.

>>71142609
>管理区
>nature preserve
Why don't any dics list that no fuggin' way anyone could guess that

>>71142689
That was merely my localisation based on the context.

>>71142200
I really hate these manga/anime/jdrama tropes... あああ海だ
or when they eat some real mundane shit and go 美味しいいいい

why can't they just shut the fuck up and their fucking joghurt like a normal person

>>71135519
im going to study in Waseda, you literally need 0 Japanese. you can study it all in English.

>>71136260
I'm from the murder capital where they murder for capital

>>71145440
>murder capital
>apparently what it's called in Japanese is 殺人の都
>it sounds more like murder paradise