How is this period generally viewed in Ukraine?

Greedy local princes wanted to split Rus' and not pay money to Kiev.

At first Mongols, and then centuries of occupation. Good job, hoholnomics/10.

Lithuanian one was the less painful, because we had autonomy and no problems with orthodoxy.

>>70870077
Is GDL seen as a foreign occupier or a Rus' state like it is in Belarus?

>>70870208
foreign occupier

>>70870431
Why do you think Belarussian historians are so hellbent to prove GDL's ''Belarussianess'', when Ukrainians don't, even though you guys were the same people at the time?

>>70870533
I see it as a foreign occupier.

>>70870635
Really? I thought that the prevailing view among Belarussians was that GDL was an early Belarussian state.

>>70870694
No, that is a meme amongst nationalists.

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>>70870703

how widely is it accepted?

>>70869789
where?

>>70870533
we had own state with own leaders and problems
when it's falls, lithuanian dukes come, and local elites must to accept them.

it's like i'm living in LPR, even if I don't like it.

>>70870703
Is Lukashenko making you say that? What are the historical origins of Belarus then?

>>70870780
Difficult to put a number on it, but it is a minority view. If I had to give one I would say about 20%.

>>70870808
No, I am just giving the facts of it. The historical origin of Belarus is the same as that of Ukraine and Russia, descending from Ruthenia, we are one of the three surviving Rus' nations.

>>70870892
umm excuse me but Red Rus known also as Galicia is rightful Polish clay

we wuz kniazie and shit

>>70870972
you all are white croatian clay
> Za Tatrami, v rovinách při řece Visle rozkládala se od nepaměti charvátská země, část prvotní veliké vlasti slovanské (Behind the Tatra Mountains, in the plains of the river Vistula, stretched from immemorial time Charvátská country (probably White Croatia),
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lech,_Czech,_and_Rus#Czech_version

>>70871015
only Vistulans can claim to be related to you, our country was founded by Polans (who conquered Vistulans like a century later)

>>70871067
legend clearly states that rus,czech and lech came from land of croatia
also Krakov naš

>>70870972
>>70871015
Heh... Look at these kids bickering... The day will once again come when ALL teh slavs are under Lithuanian rule.

>>70871067
fuck off p*lan I am a proud Vistulan we will return to Great Moravia soon

>>70871127
Excuse me but all Slavs came from Macedonia. Then some of them returned back, some went to Russia and some to Poland etc

>>70871287
you ruled croats aswell
white croats were one of the tribes that made kiev

>>70871335
This Slav gets it. I just wish that others understood that Lithuania should be ruling at least 80% of Großlituanium.

>>70869789
>Lithuania didn't take Moscow
that's where you fucked up

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>>70871527
We tried

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanian%E2%80%93Muscovite_War_(1368%E2%80%9372)

>>70871615
But PLC did in 1610
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Muscovite_War_(1605%E2%80%9318)#Poles_in_Moscow_.281610.29

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reminder: "lithuanians (?)" kings were speaking in belarussian in that time

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>>70869789
>Belarussians seem to have some strong opinions about what this state was like.
this >>70871854

>>70871779
History of Lithuania ends after 1569
>>70871854
Name 1 (one) Lithuanian ruler whose native language was Belarussian.

>>70871956
No it doesn't, does Scotland's history end when they joined the UK?

>>70871956
Władysław jagiełło

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>>70871854
>belarussian

nice word for russian language fagget,..

>>70872057
When did Belarussians suddenly become pagan and adopt Baltic names?

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>>70869789
>What about Ukrainians?
Ukraine joined after https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blue_Waters, and after 1569 it became part of the Polish kingdom in the PLC

how is Karl XII remembered here?

>>70872057
Poles and their revionism.

If Jogaila spoke Belarusian how come did he Christianize people in Samogitia who didn't speak Ruthenian?

Since none of the spiritual men who came together with King Vladislav in Samogitia, were not able to speak Samogitian, Vladislav, King of Poland, was forced to preach to the people of Samogitia faith and instill true religion.
(Et quoniam nemo ex viris spiritualibus, qui cum Rege Wladislao Samagittiam advenerant, linguam Samagitticam noverat exprimere, Wladislaus Poloniae Rex ad populum Samagittiae pro fide et religione orthodoxa suscipienda declamare coactus est.)

That's what Dlugosz wrote in 1413.

And Jogaila later himself to papal legate.

>Jogaila to the papal legate in 1421 (Lites ac Res gestae inter Polonos Ordinemque Cruciferorum. tomus tertius. Posnaniae, 1856)

"Samogitia and Sudovia (...) are an important part of the Lithuanian Principality and belong to the principality;
...
The inhabitants of this land speak Lithuanian. And they do not have any other language than Lithuanian.
...
Samogitia, that is, in Lithuanian - Lithuania lower."


You can choke on your own lies nigger.

>>70872188
>If Jogaila spoke Belarusian how come did he Christianize people in Samogitia who didn't speak Ruthenian?
>linguam Samagitticam
>religione orthodoxa
>Samogitia, that is, in Lithuanian - Lithuania lower."
why the full name of GDL Samogitia written separately?
The Statutes of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania name the complete name of the state as Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia and Samogitia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchy_of_Lithuania#Etymology

p.s.
I am not in any way deny the fact that this part of Lithuania

>>70872506
Because Samogitia was often acting independently from the Grand Dukes. You could in the same way ask why the name of Ruthenia is written separately.

>>70872506
Because Samogitia was autonomous region within GDL since Mindaugas times, they spoke slightly different dialect and had different nobility/leaders. Sort of like Bavarians in Germany.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Samogitia

>>70872506
But even in 1219 in one of the first known treaties Samogitian dukes, nobles appeared along with other Lithuanian dukes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_early_Lithuanian_dukes


Vytautas writes to Emperor Sigismund in 1420 (Codex epistolaris Vitoldi. Pars I, Nr.861)
...in terra Samaytarum, (...) que eciam est et semper fuit unum et idem cum terra Lythwaniae, nam unum ydeoma et uni homines.

Samogitia which is and always was one with Lithuania, because the same language and the same people.

Sed quod terra Samaytarum est terra inferior ad terram Lythwanie, ideo Szomoyth vocatur, quod in lythwanico terra inferior interpretatur. Samoyte vero Lythwaniam appelant Auxstote, quod est terra superior respectu terre Samaytarum.

Because Samogitia lies lower than Lithuania it's called Žemaite which in Lthuanian means lowland. Samogitians call Lithuania Aukštaite which means highland because higher land than Samogitia.

better question is why do ukrainians cuck themselves into believing they are different from Russians?

>>70873133
>This comming from a Bulgar FYROMIAM

>>70873205
>your people are retarded therefore it's ok for my people to be retarded

fuck off baltcuck we rekt you in basketball

>>70873246
cmon man why u gotta do dis

>>70872839
>You could in the same way ask why the name of Ruthenia is written separately. >>70872152

>>70872940
lol, Thanks, I'll remember this
But seriously, why this land has a status different from the others?
I almost do not studied Samogitia and now I do be interested to

>>70873472
Samogitia is like our Texas. Samogitians would were the ones who resisted outside influence the hardest. They were the ones who achieved most of the biggest victories against the crusaders in the 13th century. Even though though they were given to the Teutonic Order by the Grand Duke multiple times, the Order never managed to subdue them. They were also the last ones to christianize, only doing so in 1413. They also resisted the administration reform based on the Polish Voivodeship system, retaining the status of Eldership. It was also where Lithuanian National revival was the strongest.

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>>70873472
Well since 1220's when Mindaugas ruled Lithuania he concluded truces or peace treaties with Livonian/Teutonic Order and Samogitians didn't accept that and continued to fight them. Later Mindaugas got assassinated by a Samogitian duke Treniota and later during Jogaila/Vytautas times Samogitia was given away quite a few times away as a bargaining chip during various treaties with Teutonic Order and given away to them, but they never really annexed the area as Samogitians never subdued to them and revolted every time, even Battle of Grunwald was provoked by Samogitian uprisings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samogitian_uprisings

And later in 1441 Casimir Jagiellon acknowledged their autonomy and issued privilege to elect their elders.

Also they had seperate church Archdiocese of Samogitia established in 1412 in Medininkai as compared to Archdiocese of Vilnius established in late 14th century.

So in short while they had own elder/leaders/church/officials they still had obey and listen to Lithuanian rulers from Vilnius.

>>70873840
>>70873912
thanks guys

>>70869789
>ukraine
>>>/x/
>ukrainians
>>>/an/

Бyльбaны зaчeм в тaк?

>>70875179
>зaчeм в тaк?
???

very nice thread

>>70874954
/an/ have kot blini general
wtf I love /an/ now