Constructive criticism instead of destructive criticism

Constructive criticism is what art school people do, destructive criticism is what people who know a little do.

>>3014644
Take a pic of this "destructive criticism" and let's us see bud

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>>3014644

>>3014644
>>3014652
Eh, go to progress thread and /beg/ thread, 3 different people telling people to just stop drawing.

Look at people like FantasyGerard2000 that just make call out journals about people and their art instead of helping them

>>3014663
This.
>So much this.
This self-sustaining vortex of shitposting is why this board is unusable now.

>>3014644
Quit acting like this shit is in any way consequential.
>lower an artist's self esteem
So what?
>I doubt anyone knows how to give constructive criticism
There's no incentive to do so. It's easier and more cathartic to just shit on someone instead.
>steal their art
This is not an epidemic. No one is stealing work off /ic/ and passing it off as their own in any meaningful way.
>I wanna name an artist so bad...
Wow I'm sure you'll be hailed as a hero for exposing some no-name artist for being mean on the internet.

Fuck you.

>>3014650
jaded

"destructive" criticism comes from jaded people, not people who know little. When you're on here enough and see the same fuckhole with the same awful-chicken scratched, misproportioned mess with stiff gesture and no sense of perspective, you get tired. Because every person who wrote "it's shit" once wrote an in-depth critique or drew a redline for someone. And that same person either said "thank you" before leaving and posting again a day later with all the same issues or got combative, slinging "Show your work!" or other defensive arguments. After you put all the effort into helping someone for them to soon ignore you, it gets tiring as hell. And if they aren't going to listen to you, why the fuck should you say anything other than "it's shit"

The funny thing is, when you actually listen to someone who says "its shit" or "your ____ is shit" and improve on the issues, even if it's
all your fundamentals, you get better. The advice is rarely ever bad here, and the critique, no matter how brutal, is rarely ever wrong. The people slapping their work up with no thought and expecting to be spoon fed praise are the issue
>>3014663
"stop drawing" is sound advice as well. Ever think that some people need to take a moment to use their fucking brain before shitting out scribbles?

the issue with this board was never about negative or brutal criticism. In fact, that is the draw of the board. The issue with this board is rather people asking for criticism and expecting praise. Or people mindlessly posting their lazy work and expecting someone to give them a critique that requires 10X more effort to make than they used to draw it.

All of you are fucking retarded I swear

>>3014705
You're rationalizing.
Everything you said could be correct in the right context, but it's mostly bullshit.

>When you're on here enough and see the same fuckhole with the same awful-chicken scratched, misproportioned mess with stiff gesture and no sense of perspective, you get tired.
Sales people get tired of the same asinine questions but if they start shouting abuse at people they get fired for being fucking shit sales people. If you're sick and tired and jaded from helping, fuck off, literally nobody wants you here. Not even other shitposters want you here at that point.
>every person who wrote "it's shit" once wrote an in-depth critique or drew a redline for someone.
That's fucking bullshit and you know it.
> combative, slinging "Show your work!" or other defensive arguments
Normal people don't do that in response to relevant criticism, whether or not it's constructive. Defensive arguments USUALLY mean your critique is irrelevant shit soup. I'll grant that some people get defensive regardless, but it's a small percentage. Extending it to everybody is not a fair argument, and it shits up the board.

>>3014705
>And if they aren't going to listen to you, why the fuck should you say anything other than "it's shit"
For the same reason they post their work, even though they know they're just gonna get the same bullshit ranting pile of unhelpful shit... Because once in a while, somebody helpful comes along.
>The funny thing is, when you actually listen to someone who says "its shit" or "your ____ is shit" and improve on the issues, even if it's all your fundamentals, you get better.
No you don't. More rationalizing.
>"stop drawing" is sound advice as well.
Only when placed in the context of other sound advice, which it never is.
>the issue with this board was never about negative or brutal criticism. In fact, that IS the draw of the board.
WAS
>The issue with this board is rather people asking for criticism and expecting praise
Wrong. The issue is people expecting relevant feedback and receiving none.

>Or people mindlessly posting their lazy work and expecting someone to give them a critique that requires 10X more effort to make than they used to draw it.
This is the only thing you wrote that I'll conditionally agree with. Lots of people do this. That said, the people who don't do this, and put actual work into their art, are treated the same way... Suggesting that this is just more contextual rationalizing of a board full of hatred, impotent rage, and vitriol.

I won't even make the argument that constructive criticism is necessary.

>RELEVANT

Is a word this board needs to re-learn

Also

>CRITIQUE and CRITICISM do not share the same definition. They are not synonymous.

>>3014698
/ic/ is a board for imrovement of artists. If the board doesn't actually provide improvement for artists beyond helpful links to self-teaching tools what the fuck is the point?

>>3014705
>"destructive" criticism comes from jaded people, not people who know little.
No. It come from both ends of that human centipede you dumb fuck.

>>3014713
(1)
I should also clarify that I don't critique "its shit", but I have been told that. I understand the point of view and am willing to defend these people because if someone didn't tell me what I thought was good was shit, I would have never really been driven to improve. It's as simple as that.

with that out of the way, lets go too lazy to greentext so all responses are in order

Sales people also get paid to put up with other people's bullshit. What is happening here is a free service, that people often do pay for if they want really in depth critique. expecting a critique of that depth seems to be the norm here though

I'm not pretending everyone saying "its shit" isn't just being an asshole. I am aware trolls exist and just parrot anything to get a response. I am saying that if you talk to them further and be humble, you can learn a lot. If they don't know shit, they've shown their hand and will get called out by other anons

the only worthless critique is an inaccurate one. If your work truly isn't shit and you know it, feel free to disregard the trolls. That being said if your work isn't shit than you probably aren't posting here and are actually pursuing your career in art. If the critique is inaccurate other anons will chime in to correct them, but most of the time "it's shit" is an accurate assessment.

It is a very rare chance that someone posts a shitty sketch, someone does a full redline and then the artist uses that information to improve. It's sad, but who's responsibility is it to actually work after being critiqued. That's right, it is on the artist to use the feedback to their advantage.

>>3014644
>constructive criticism
>/ic
>/ic
>/ic

>>3014715
(2)
that's bullshit and you know it. If you've posted your art here and got told it was shit, it is up to you to make it not shit. I tried that, hell I'm still trying. But sometimes being told your work is so flawed fundamentally that there is no hope for it, is what you need to go back and strengthen your weak points. I got "it's shit, all your fundamentals are trash" and instead of cowering away or being defensive I asked why, and questions of specific flaws. What I got was sharp, yes, but because I am able to keep my emotions away from my logic I was able to grow from the experience. The anon even apologized for his original harshness but understood that it needed to be heard. It is the artist's responsibility to take information in and grow. Even if that information is loose it is up to them to analyze their own flaws.

telling someone to stop drawing will either (a) actually stop them from drawing, and if it does they wouldn't have had the willpower to continue much further anyway (b) make them think about their flaws and re-evaluate or (c) make them continue in protest. I believe this scene is relevant in relation to this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6vTI5g198E

how "WAS" it the draw of the board if you are currently complaining about how tough the critique is?

I feel like we agree with a lot of things beyond this. Intelligent debate is rare on here. I should note that it is rare that a strong piece actually gets "it's shit" and if it does, other people call that anon out.

Relevance is bestowed by the reader, not the writer. I chose to make its shit relevant and grow from it, and I sincerely hope that people can begin to grow from it. The more people who truly analyze the critique and their work, respond respectfully and ask more questions, the less often "it's shit" will be posted

critique and criticism are different words, but their meaning, their relevance is bestowed from the reader.

>>3014644
Your regular 4channer probably does not even know what constructive criticism or encouragement would even look like. They wouldn't understand how to build someone up. Instead what they know is how to tear someone down, point out flaws until they win over the person they're trying to critique. It's a competitive thing, it's about assuming your dominance over someone else. That or it's a way to pass negativity they feel to other people.

Constructive criticism is actually not easy to give. It requires you to have some basic empathy skills to put yourself in the shoes of the person you're critiquing so that you can see the problem from their point of view. Then using your own knowledge or experience, help elevate them to a better place than they had been. That's not easy at all. That's why there are many good artists but so few good teachers.

Here especially, you have many who get off on feeling superior to others, whether they actually have skill or not, it doesn't matter. They will willingly criticize others to gratify their need to feel superior. Just look at all the artist hate threads, many of these artists are not even doing anything wrong to garner that kind of hate. So those are the attitudes that people who come here bring. It's sad but that's the way it is.

Maybe if we had more senior artists here who do understand how to be constructive and encouraging, how to build up artists, then they could influence the state of the entire board. Right now, it doesn't look like they are here or that they are active or interested in making a difference.

>>3014725
dissection threads are common. You often find threads talking about certain artists and if you ask, most people know of their process and how it is replicated. Integration of other artists work is key to growth. There is also numerous sketchbook threads and threads focusing on showing art with a similar theme. Everything relies on the reader to study them to grow
>>3014729
an incoherent response, but I think you agree with me? it comes from both ends meaning that it comes from jaded people and trolls or what. elaborate

this is the most constructive place Ive seen, (god I never thought I'd say that about anything on 4chan)

when people get told to stop or give up its because they are so obviously not willing to put in the effort. being an artist is a lifetime dedication, you have to give your all or you really won't get anywhere. The people who are giving their lives to art have no time or patience for people who say "its too hard" or "I dont wanna". and I have seen many of those crybabies here

of course its hard, it wouldn't be worth doing otherwise.

>>3010596

>>3014775
>when people get told to stop or give up its because they are so obviously not willing to put in the effort
That's bullshit. I've seen decent artists here get told to quit out of sheer jealousy. It's masked as criticism of ugly style or whatever, even when said anon is already receiving praise for good work.

>The people who are giving their lives to art have no time or patience for people
Then why are they here giving critique in the first place? That's not an excuse. What use is critique from someone who acts like they can't even spare time. That's a huge part of what's wrong. Artists who feel like they're too good for critiquing others who do it anyway then make it the other person's problem.

When you stop romanticizing this place, you'll see all the underhanded stuff that goes on. Just look at the hate threads and you'll see the exact opposite of what you're saying.

>>3014787
look, Im not saying there arent some salty assholes here. but I dare you to find some place where there arent any.

we have a sticky for a reason, because there are basic things EVERYONE has to practice and get good at to get anywhere in art, perspective, shading, anatomy etc. people who don't even put in the time to get those down, arent worth a critique most time. Its like when someone post horrible anatomy and everyone shouts LOOMIS, because thats the starting point for anatomy

people here give critiques to those who have put in the practice because they want to see others make it if you can believe it or not, they remember what its like to be a beginner.

If you hate this place so much, then leave. You certainly arent being constructive complaining about how "destructive" this place is.

again, of course there are assholes here who just want to watch everyone fail but don't pretend everyone here is.

heres several examples from the beginner thread going on right now that I would say are constructive criticisms.
>>3013360
>>3013393
>>3013450
>>3013733
>>3014079
>>3014291
>>3014585
>>3014785

>>3014753
I'm saying it comes from knowledgeable, but jaded people AND people who don't know shit about shit.
>I'll leave you to figure out which end of the centipede is which.

>>3014735
>Free service
Agreed, but the metaphor is relevant. Wikipedia is a free service, but nobody would use it if it was full of trash.
>It is a very rare chance that someone posts a shitty sketch, someone does a full redline and then the artist uses that information to improve. It's sad, but who's responsibility is it to actually work after being critiqued. That's right, it is on the artist to use the feedback to their advantage.
Of course. It is the artists responsibility to use it. My best breakthrough ever was as a result of a helpful redline from this board. I still have it.
>the only worthless critique is an inaccurate one
That's that I was talking about, mostly. Inaccurate and irrelevant critiques.
>>3014746
>>3014746
>If you've posted your art here and got told it was shit, it is up to you to make it not shit.
Absolutely.
>how "WAS" it the draw of the board if you are currently complaining about how tough the critique is?
I'm not complaining about how tough it is, I'm complaining about it's total lack of relevance and accuracy. I'm complaining that most of the time, people could scribble "it's shit" all over their art and achieve the same result as posting it here.
>I feel like we agree with a lot of things beyond this
Yep.
>Relevance is bestowed by the reader...
I disagree. Relevance is bestowed by the writer. It is up to the reader to receive it and use it, but if there is no substance there, then the reader is going to have to dig internally. They could have done the same thing by painting "It's shit" on their art and cutting their ear off...

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I wish a lot of people would like constructive criticism instead of hating it when I critique their work. They're probably young...

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This video should be helpful https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fuAqReGAnAQ

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>>3014644

You should never depend on any sort of external encouragement for validation.

>>3014663


The beginner thread gets shitposts because at that level, the sticky is the best place to learn. Most people refuse to even click on it, so the rationale goes; "why help you when you don't even want to help yourself?"

>>3015293
Everytime I seek constructive criticism I get either no response of some shitter memeing on me. It's not fair.

>>3014787
>That's bullshit. I've seen decent artists here get told to quit out of sheer jealousy

LEL
There is no hope for you if this is your rationale.
You are never going to make it if you actually believe this. Get thicker skin or get out.

sage desu