>antinatallism >people actually believe this

File: 1499900914387.jpg (31KB, 600x338px) Image search: [Google]

31KB, 600x338px

>people are forced to born without consent
>world is full of murder, rape, theft, disease, war, poverty, misery, suffering
>all of which meaningless
>"let's make more people go through it!"

File: world_population_1050_to_2050.jpg (114KB, 904x617px) Image search: [Google]

114KB, 904x617px

Being antinatalist is the ONLY viable stance today. Humans are breeding like rats, less people = less problems in the world, less misery, pain, suffering, greed, ignorance.

Growth that exists just for the sake of growth has a name - cancer.

I mean, having children is selfish. If you're planning to have a child you're not really doing it so the baby can be born and enjoy life because life is suffering. If you accidentally get pregnant/get a girl pregnant u probably aren't in the position to be having a kid, practically, so you can't even provide for the thing which means more suffering

so WHY

There are plenty of babies and kids without parents. Like LOTS. If you really wanna raise a child just adopt. There's no reason to give birth to a baby.

BUT GO AHEAD, have a kid. Contribute to the problem. I hope you realize that by the time it grows up there will be nothing left

>>3109375
I'm not talking about whether I'm having a kid or not but does anyone realize what a disastrous and nihilistic idea this is? Without a new generation to maintain the state of civilization the situation would be apocalyptic. Not to mention throwing away hundreds of thousands of years of human progress seems more than a little defeatist.

>>3109398
why do you assume that human existence is inherently good and worth perpetuating?

you can't just say because nihilism=bad, that's not an argument

File: al maari quote.png (145KB, 850x401px) Image search: [Google]

145KB, 850x401px

my thoughts on the matter

>>3109322
Thus profits the atheist from his atheism. Why it's almost as if atheism is dysgenic and an obstacle to the long term survival of an organism, much like a congenitally deformed limb.

>>3109490
what's your point?

>nothin personnel, kid: the philosophy
>>3109322
>japshit
I rest my case.

File: his sticky1.jpg (358KB, 1893x551px) Image search: [Google]

358KB, 1893x551px

>>3109499

>>3109480
>why do you assume that human existence is inherently good and worth perpetuating?
The fact that you self-perpetuate your exist in order to post that drivel here rather than taking your "beliefs" to their logical conclusion and cutting your own throat.

>b-but it's hard...
>I'm scared to die....
Someone finds the strength to put their money where their mouth is every 40 seconds, take the literal plunge and contribute to the statistic pussy.

>>3109490
if life is meaningless, why do i care if we go on? Youre going to have to try harder than that

>>3109498
Simply that you're a deadend and your rhetoric is the memetic equivalent of a dose of a gamma radiation.

>>3109512
This is the the most pretentious thing I have ever read. Congratulations

File: loli.jpg (290KB, 1260x1200px) Image search: [Google]

290KB, 1260x1200px

>>3109499
Anime website faggot.
If you don't like it take your garbage thread to Reddit.

>>3109511
>if life is meaningless, why do i care if we go on?
I don't believe life is meaningless.

>>3109522
What is the meaning of life then?

File: 14979154744.jpg (180KB, 1280x960px) Image search: [Google]

180KB, 1280x960px

>tfw antinatalist misanthrope

>>3109398
pessimism =/= nihilism

If your message is that life is bad you're unambiguously intending to espouse an objective value system. In fact its not even subject to any sort of dynamic contextualization and therefore even especially objective as a form of morality.

>>3109503
>rather than taking your "beliefs" to their logical conclusion
why do people always say this when they speak against anti-natalism? Why is the only belief that has to stand up to the "its ultimate extreme is suicide so its wrong" test?

Tell me anon, do you pay taxes? Do you think paying taxes is ok? If so then you've admitted that its ok for the state to force you under pain of kidnapping and imprisonment to give them your money. So if you think that's ok then why not take it to its ultimate extreme conclusion where the state takes all your private property and kills you if you refuse? If you pay your taxes you've already said its ok for the state to steal your money, so what's the difference right?

>>3109525
I don't know what your religion is so I can't tell you.

>>3109490
>muh genes

And that is important why?

>>3109535
>Life is awful and we'd be better off dead...
>WHOA, WHOA, SLOW DOWN I DIDN'T MEAN ME, I WAS JUST TRYING TO SOUND DEEP

>>3109535
It's not theft.
Social contract motherfucker.

>>3109546
Your genes aren't remotely important to me, feel free position your gonads in front of an active emitter of ionizing radiation at any time.

>>3109503
>the conclusion is kill yourself

Speaking personally not only am I a "spiritual" antinatalist, I only became an antinatalist after reflecting on the idea of the soul, eschatology and the paranormal in general. My attitude is that if I would say "what if anything could happen to you." you wouldn't be rejoicing because that idea of vulnerability to the unknown and unknowable is intrinsically terrifying. If we were just dealing with some limited hedonic utility I'd probably say have at it.

File: 42564689680.jpg (71KB, 500x359px) Image search: [Google]

71KB, 500x359px

>>3109550
>Life is awful
It isn't Most anti-natalists usually are depressive losers, virgins, people with no jobs, family, etc. And I mean, like, 99% of them. Life is great. You can do heroine, have sex, party, drive Ferraris, fuck whores on a yacht, anything you want really. Just because a few people have it bad doesn't mean everyone should stop breeding. It's extremely selfish on your part to try to put down other people's fulfillment just because you're a loser who failed at life.
Next time you feel depressed take your shit to >>>/r9k/ instead of embarrassing yourself on /his/.

>>3109529
>tfw antinatalist philanthrope

People don't deserve this shit to be honest.

>>3109567
t. Sheldon Bazooper

>>3109571
>literally the first post in the thread in support of antinatalism revolves around how much life sucks and strongly implies introducing new life into this is immoral
>somehow this makes ME the depressed and miserable one.

Enjoy your intellectually inconsistent hedonism I guess bro, I don't know what to tell you.

>>3109341
Exterminationism is a more sensible policy.

Preserve your own kind while wiping out the rapidly multiplying third-world hordes.

>>3109571
>people should be trusted based on their biases informed by personal life experience

>>3109570
literally kys

>>3109570
>My attitude is that if I would say "what if anything could happen to you." you wouldn't be rejoicing because that idea of vulnerability to the unknown and unknowable is intrinsically terrifying. If we were just dealing with some limited hedonic utility I'd probably say have at it.
Fair enough, I however believe that there are hard limits on what can plausibly happen to a person, and while the uncertainty of life is indeed terrifying, I believe that state of terror is better than the alternative as it is at least something rather than nothing, and I find the idea of NOTHING even more terrifying.

I can understand pain, I can understand pleasure.
I can't understand nothing.

>>3109322
This, if you have children you are a sociopath.

>>3109503
So you are saying that if all the antinatalists killed themselves you would accept the premises of antinatalism? I suspect its more like "ergh, stop saying thing I don't like and kill yourself so I don't have to listen to you anymore." Which is fetus-tier immaturity.

>>3109625
>So you are saying that if all the antinatalists killed themselves you would accept the premises of antinatalism?
No, but I would certainly cease to consider it self-refuting as I do now.
If someone isn't getting high on their own supply, odds are it's not in your interest to get high on it either. Sort of like how no one trusts a skinny cook, if you permit me to pile on another cliche.

>>3109571
>its selfish to prevent me from generating a whole new person

I'm sure its also selfish to prevent you from taking someone else's money you found lying around somewhere.

>>3109637
>literally textbook ad hominem

topjej

>>3109571
I'm getting a serious false flag vibe from this post. I mean heroine? Seriously

1/10 weak bait

>>3109644
How is pointing out blatant hypocrisy "text-book ad hominem"?

>>3109676
because the very definition of ad hominem is dismissing an argument on the basis that the person putting it forward doesn't act according to it. Hypocrisy involves illegitmately attacking people's character not putting out arguments for consideration in the context of a conversation or debate.

>>3109375
>I mean, having children is selfish.
>selfish
fuck I hate this board

>>3109713
>I hate this board because this one guy expressed a fringe view

Grow some thicker skin pal

>>3109713
See >>3109322
You are giving birth to someone who cannot consent to being born. As if the mere point of consent was not enough, we also live in a terrible world. There is murder, rape, theft, disease, war, poverty, misery, suffering. And all of which is meaningless. And that's assuming a purely non religious point of view. If you are Christian, then the right thing to do is not to give birth to souls because it means they can go to Hell, as most people who are born go to Hell.

>>3109730
but age of accountability tho

>>3109747
[Sin Laundering Intensifies]

>>3109761
Explain this heresy

>>3109779
>hurr durr my son is "insert age here" so now him going to hell for eternity is his problem

Although the idea of active participants moving into the roles of blameless bystanders is a recurring theme in the Abrahamic faiths.

"I am innocent of this man's blood"
-Pontius Pilate

>>3109555
so if you think the state should take some of your money for the public good why shouldn't it take all of your money and provide for you entirely?

>>3109550
where did you get any of that from what I said?

>>3109503
Just because life isn't worth living for doesn't mean that death is worth dying for.

>>3109512
Why is being a "deadend" a bad thing? Is it really that much better to just keep going through the same cycle, life after life, without anything ever changing?

>>3109322
>I have constitutional weakness that causes me suffering and I wish to sentimentalize it and spread it to others.

File: his sticky.jpg (322KB, 1871x441px) Image search: [Google]

322KB, 1871x441px

>>3109896

>>3109896
Yes pretty much and unironically

>>3109307
>Jordan Peterson
>people actually fund this guy a six figure salary on Patreon

>>3109398
>we should bring human existence to an end
your argument:
>why doesn't anyone realize that this is a terrible idea because it would bring human existence to an end?

idiot

>>3109503
>The fact that you self-perpetuate your exist in order to post that drivel here rather than taking your "beliefs" to their logical conclusion and cutting your own throat.

it's like saying if you don't spend your entire life whipping yourself before god in a cave or some shit then you aren't a true christain

the real question is,

why does the mere suggestion of antinatalism make cucks and losers so rabidly angry?

it's like they're stupid babies who just can't deal with people having different beliefs and values to them

it's honestly pretty embarassing

>>3110420
Because they're own personal accomplishments are so pathetic and non-existant that they think the only way to "win" in life is to spawn an equally pathetic, loser child as though that proves anything. It's nigger-tier logic and the reason why third-world countries are so terrible.

>>3109637
please expain the necessary relation between

1. we ought not bring children into the world

and

2. we ought kill ourselves

I'm waiting.

>>3110438
their*

inb4 this typo invalidates the validity of my post

>>3110420
I'm an antinatalist and I can't deal with Calvinists or Nietzschwits so it cuts both ways to be fair.

>>3109322

The argument goes both ways though

>>3110446
>Calvinists

Which aspect of their doctrine pisses you off the most?

File: that_word_you_keep_using.jpg (93KB, 630x707px) Image search: [Google]

93KB, 630x707px

>>3109490
I missed the point where the weaboo mentioned atheism.

His antinatalism stance is an entirely spiritual position, supposing that unborn spirits are somehow "forced" into being born, and would be better off, if left in their immaterial realm.

It also flies in the face of genetic destiny, and even the basic biological functionality of life that atheists tend to tout so heavily.

It's kind of the ultimate example of feels > reals that atheists decry so much, and are always accusing the theists of.

At least, beyond the practical, "anything that makes the freeways move faster" aspect.

>>3110439
Not him, but collectively, one does rather lead to the other, when taken to its ultimate extreme.

>>3110449
The election. Salvation is a lottery? I've never heard of anything as cynical as not going to burn for eternity being a raffle.

File: deb4ccb94366cafc259e2773e7274da68bf46c268fc3ce3a9a575ecedee2be3e.png (562KB, 800x605px) Image search: [Google]

562KB, 800x605px

Bunch of losers who won't reproduce anyway, bitter and want to bring everyone else down with them. There is no were else that we know of in this universe let alone the galaxy were life exists. The chance of our existence was close to 0 in this extremely hostile universe, and even we won't last forever. Life is a lot like women, cruel but beautiful. It's better to have it and spread it is then not to.

>>3110499
Literally nothing you said wasn't entirely emotionally motivated

>>3110499
>things that are improbable can't be bad
>rare diseases aren't a thing

This is your brain on life

>>3109307
1. Life is bad. I know from personal experience.
2. I love my hypothetical children.
3. I wouldn't cause life on them, since I know its bad.

I love my hypothetical children too much to make them exist, such existence is cruel and painful.

>>3110470
great explanation buddy, top notch

>>3110462
>His antinatalism stance is an entirely spiritual position, supposing that unborn spirits are somehow "forced" into being born, and would be better off, if left in their immaterial realm.

if this bothers you, you can frame the argument in different ways other than this

for example you could just we ought minimise the amount of suffering in the world, and having a child would increase the amount, so we should not have children

the debate doesn't have to be framed around consent from non-existent 'children'

>It also flies in the face of genetic destiny, and even the basic biological functionality of life that atheists tend to tout so heavily.

evolution has no teleos. you don't understand the theory

>genetic destiny

lol

>>3110448
It actually isn't a symmetrical situation. The absence of suffering through not living is generally accepted as a good thing hence why you put your dog to sleep when he gets cancer. The absence of pleasure through not living isn't a bad thing though. Why? Because you only want pleasure to begin with if you exist. Not existing eliminates your craving for pleasure.

>>3110688
>The absence of suffering through not living is generally accepted as a good thing

for whom?

>>3109341
This chart is wrong.

And historically projections like this were always incorrect. Stop posting it or at least tells us where it's from.

>>3109307
>white people would rather abort their babies to prevent climate change
>white people would also rather pay for Mudmad Shanequisha Tyrone Rajput 20 kids

>>3109307
D A M A G E D

>>3110715
In the example of putting the dog with cancer to sleep, the dog. Part of the motivation might be that the owner wants to make himself feel better by not watching the dog suffer anymore, but if that were the only concern then he could just as easily abandon the dog instead. The act of euthanasia is understood to be for the benefit of the recipient because it ends their suffering. Unlike with the presence of pleasure where you need to be alive to crave it in the first place, the *absence* of suffering is a benefit that can be had through the ending of life because it's a negative / subtractive benefit rather than a positive / additive one. Hence the asymmetry.

>>3110741
>white people constantly try to prevent access to birth control and access to abortions
>white people managed to convince an entire nation that birth control is evil

Huh, I guess you're right.

>>3109707
>because the very definition of ad hominem is dismissing an argument on the basis that the person putting it forward doesn't act according to it.

What on earth are you talking about, that's not true at all.

>>3109322
Kill yourself

I'm a depressed shitcunt and even I think it's retarded. Preach antinatalism to the indians/chinese breeding like rabbits.

>>3110439
Antinatalism implicitly rests it's argument on the idea that life is worthless. Yet antinatalists continue to hold onto this worthless thing contrary to their own arguments.

You genuinely don't see how that disrupts the antinatalist argument derived from human suffering?

>>3110438
There's nothing quite like a guy who thinks life is meaningless attempting to assert his superiority by mocking people who llive meaningless lives.

>>3111630
>Antinatalism implicitly rests it's argument on the idea that life is worthless
That's not true. It's the position that creating new lives is more of a harm than a good. Burglary by analogy isn't worthless, it's just that the worth comes at the cost of a greater harm.

File: smug.jpg (44KB, 529x502px) Image search: [Google]

44KB, 529x502px

I believe in it but I'm getting kids anyway.

File: Darkest Pill.png (154KB, 584x754px) Image search: [Google]

154KB, 584x754px

> anti-natalism
> not existential nihilism

>>3109707
you got mixed up there bud

>>3109730
>You are giving birth to someone who cannot consent to being born.
They can't consent to not being born either so that kind of screws up any attempt at basing your argument on consent.

>As if the mere point of consent was not enough, we also live in a terrible world
Yes a world so terrible you refuse to leave it, how awful. You must be real fun at parties.

>If you are Christian, then the right thing to do is not to give birth to souls because it means they can go to Hell, as most people who are born go to Hell.
>"I'm so terrified of my children going to hell that I would deny them the ability to go to heaven."
Mothers who raise their sons this way produce serial killers and social rejects.

>>3109322
>Everyone born will turn out to be depressed autistic faggots like me!

>>3111678
>They can't consent to not being born
???
Do you need to consent to not have sex? Do you need to consent to not have your credit card charged? I don't think that's how consent works.

>>3111150
>Part of the motivation might be that the owner wants to make himself feel better by not watching the dog suffer anymore, but if that were the only concern then he could just as easily abandon the dog instead.
Some owners do.

Furthermore you do realize your argument using euthanasia justifies involuntarily euthanizing people who you subjectively feel are suffering right?
Oh and by the way I don't remember the owner ever asking for the dog's consent, something which I thought was a big deal to antinatalists....

It's a philosophical dead end. It's on par with solipsism.

File: 1500355209696.png (83KB, 300x249px) Image search: [Google]

83KB, 300x249px

Isn't it strange how antinatalists in the "life is suffering" camp haven't killed themselves?

It's like life is preferable to non existence or something

Really makes you think

>>3111698
How are you going to ask the dog for consent? That seems like a pretty nonsensical issue to try to argue about. If you can find a way to read a dog's mind to get consent I wouldn't object to doing that.

>>3111705
Life isn't preferable to nonexistence even if you aren't an antinatalist. Nonexistence is completely free of any suffering. People don't kill themselves because they have instinctual deterrents, not because nonexistence itself is unpleasant.

> life is preferable to non-existence
You already exist. Suicide will not erase you from history. What is even a point, if you will continue to influence the world even after death as information, memes, and energy that had been left behind you...

>>3111686
>Do you need to consent to not have sex? Do you need to consent to not have your credit card charged?
Yes and yes.

>I don't think that's how consent works.
That's exactly how consent works.
Consent is choice, and if a choice only has one option it's not actually a choice at all is it?

The antinatalist argument derived from consent relies on the apparent immorality of forcing a child to be born without asking for it's opinion on the matter, yet antinatalists have no problem denying a child the right to be born without asking it's opinion on the matter. Which indicates that clearly it isn't consent that the antinatalist values but ideological control.

>>3109482
He didn`t say he won`t create a little me

>>3111729
>Life isn't preferable to nonexistence even if you aren't an antinatalist. Nonexistence is completely free of any suffering. People don't kill themselves because they have instinctual deterr

Antinatalism is contrary to instinct as well, yet that doesn't stop the antinatalist from adopting it as a position. Seems to me the real reason antinatalists stick around is to make everyone else miserable, they probably get some sick thrill from convincing other people to kill themselves.

File: 1464994547318.jpg (115KB, 1285x1015px) Image search: [Google]

115KB, 1285x1015px

>>3111734
>you need consent to not have sex with someone

>>3111723
>How are you going to ask the dog for consent? That seems like a pretty nonsensical issue to try to argue about.
I agree, yet here the antinatalists are making a big deal about how the unborn can't consent to not being born....

>>3111663
Exactly this, someone else gets it.

>>3111745
>Antinatalism is contrary to instinct as well
Not really. If it were, there wouldn't be nearly as many antinatalists. Instincts come up in more immediate / visceral situations like when someone feels hunger or attempts suicide. Holding an abstract philosophical position doesn't belong much to instinct territory. That's the point. Morbidly obese people know on an intellectual level they should stop eating but can't on an instinctual level. Death is similar. Lots of people know on an intellectual level that they don't want to live but can't commit suicide on an instinctual level. It doesn't necessarily say anything about the truth or a person's belief consistency that they're controlled by unthinking instinct.

>>3111756
I personally think the much bigger deal is suffering, not consent. If it weren't for the countless many fucked up diseases each life is subject to potentially having I don't think I would see creating new life as a harm.

File: 1350871469711.jpg (51KB, 677x515px) Image search: [Google]

51KB, 677x515px

There's 2 problems with anti-natalism.

1. What the fuck are you supposed to do for 85+ years? Jerk off, drink alcohol and in general hedonism? Fine, but that would only prove hedonism correct, not that anti-natalism is good.

2. Not having children means in essence that you have no reason to make the world a better place for the future, which means that you also will refuse to bear any responsibility for negative shit that can happen in your own life time, in both your personal life, and in the culture at large.

>>3111790
>Not really. If it were, there wouldn't be nearly as many antinatalists.

>People don't kill themselves because they have instinctual deterrents
>Not really. If it were, there wouldn't be nearly as many suicides.
I guarantee you suicide is more prevalent than antinatalism, therefore the instinctual deterents against antinatalism are stronger than those against suicide.

>>3111814
> Not having children means in essence that you have no reason to make the world a better place for the future.
What kind of logic is that? Like children is literally the only thing that you should care about after the death?

>>3109322
Thats the moral reason for it.

Here's the selfish reason for it

>born in a world full of suffering
>work my ass off to feed myself
>have to work my ass off to feed another person (romantic)
>then have to work my ass off to feed another person/s (the childrens) for all my life
>no time to enjoyment
>no time for play
>no time for myself
>I have to devote all my life to raise a family because "muh instinct" factor

>>3111790
>Morbidly obese people know on an intellectual level they should stop eating but can't on an instinctual level.
Every morbidly obese person who knows on an intellectual level they should stop eating has at least attempted to do so.

Have you attempted suicide?

>>3111828
The question is why you should care about the future if you don't have any children.

>>3111819
It depends on how you're defining antinatalism. I think you're right that relatively few people literally use the word antinatalist to describe themselves. However I think way more people in the world throughout history have had the actual idea that life is suffering and it's unfortunate to bring new lives into it than have committed suicide. It's a pretty common sentiment to the point of being cliche.

>>3111838
Why should you care about the future if you will be dead anyway, with children or without?

>>3111835
Why are you assuming I'm an antinatalist? I just think this attack you all keep making to try to bring up how the opposing side hasn't committed suicide doesn't make much sense since it's an instinctual concern and is a cheap substitute for a real argument. I'm sure plenty of antinatalists have unsuccessfully attempted suicide (plenty of people in general really).

>>3111855
Because people care whether or not their children live good lives?

>>3111864
Depends on people, some don't even bother when they are alive.

>>3109848
Did I ever tell you the definition, of insanity?

The definition of insanity, is, doing the exact same fucking thing over and over again, expecting shit to change.

That.
Is.
Crazy.

Antinatalism is a pseudophilosophical expression of an arrested adolescence

These people are children, there is no point engaging them

>>3111868
I guess it does depend on people, but this thread is about anti-natalism, and anti-natalism is a weak answer to the problem of suffering.

If creating life is worse than not creating life, then staying alive should also be worse than committing suicide.

And yet anti-natalists are alive and shitpost on 4chan instead.

>>3111885
Doing heroin is worse than not doing heroin. Why do heroin addicts keep doing it anyway? It's almost like instincts and compulsions aren't evidence for something being good.

>>3111900
>Doing heroin is worse than not doing heroin

I doubt heroin addicts would agree with that statement.

There's a reason they are doing heroin in the first place, and it's because it's very very pleasurable.

File: opiniondiscarded.jpg (77KB, 680x680px) Image search: [Google]

77KB, 680x680px

>>3109322
>Animu-poster is anti-natalist

maybe because he's a 30 year old virgin?

>>3109518
>Posting lolis

Nothing I didn't expect

>>3111910
t. knows nothing about addiction.
Actual heroin addicts don't even feel good from heroin like someone trying it for the first time would. They just do it to try to feel normal because they'll become violently, pants shittingly ill if they stop.

>>3111910
Its very addictive. They can't stop it even when knowing what they're doing is very harmful.

Ever met a drug addict? Protip: do not leave them alone in your house. No matter your relation, a druggie cannot but help themselves. I've heard, experienced and know few druggies myself. They are so wasteful and they know it. They continue to drown themselves in drugs and shut out any rational discourse because that is suffering to them.

>>3109503
I agree, instincts are a real thing but they can easily be overcome by logic coupled with willpower and conviction, so if you dont want to live just spend some time psyching up for it and kys pussy.

>>3111929
>>3111943
Stop evading the topic fags. Deal with the fact that anti-natalism is a shit answer to a hard problem.

>>3109730
>we also live in a terrible world. There is murder, rape, theft, disease, war, poverty, misery, suffering.

Well, shit, and i could be abducted by ISIS and turned into their mutilated, brainwashed sex slave.
Or have mucocutaneous leishmaniasis, or Gas gangrene, or surprise cancer, or whatever other horrifying shit i might hit the jackpot of nasty diseases or accidents with.

But i don't live my life in accordance to insane nightmare inducing situations that MIGHT happen, because that's counter-productive and idiotic.

And if we apply such weird, full-of-caveats, negative utilitarian mumbo-jumbo, it makes no difference if the subject is me, random citizen #123713171, or some hypothetical future person.

Besides, i've lived in a pretty nasty part of the world, and my ancestors have turned out pretty ok, despite going through wars, famines, earthquakes, etc.

So ill teach my kids to be strong enough to likely go through all the great shake-ups of history, NOT BE WHINY, PSEUDO-PHILOSPHICAL BITCHES.

>>3109535
Way to start an entirely different endless debate, genius.

>>3109525
Doing stuff.

>>3111957
>I can't argue the point so I'll just handwave it and repeat my baseless claim
ok

>>3109571
Id like to point out that work and generativity can also be fulfilling,

>>3111979
You're not even responding to my criticisms sperglord. You're just moving the goalposts.

>>3111965
That's easy to say when you're not the one with those diseases (at least not yet). Kind of not your place to say all manner of suffering you haven't gone through isn't bad enough to matter. It's one thing to talk about diseases, it's another thing to actually feel the fecal material bursting through to your scrotum because your immune system is attacking your intestines and the 50 blood filled diarrhea shits you're taking each day have strained you enough to where a fistula opened up.

>>3110741
White people are my favorite race but if we can literally think ourselves into extinction we deserve to disappear.

>>3111996
Stop making meta-complaints and address the actual argument. If you don't like where the argument's gone, steer it somewhere else, by making an argument, not by complaining that you don't feel like you're discussing what you want to. I can't help you address the topics you do want to cover if you make vague complaints about evasion.

>>3110623
You also love your waifu too much for her to exist

>>3109307
It's the edgiest thing people who have never read through Nietzsche actually believe.
>Pain makes life not worth it
Lmao I relish it.

>>3112017
>That's easy to say when you're not the one with those diseases
Guess what?
Neither are you.
Neither is most of the planet, and we are getting increasingly good at it, due to better medicine, and the complete extermination of NTD's that's underway since 2012, so even third worlders wont get crippled by them.

Basing your decisions on shit that's statistically unlikely to happen, is like starving to death to not choke on food.

Gets the point done, but it's retarded.

File: download.jpg (6KB, 160x160px) Image search: [Google]

6KB, 160x160px

>>3110623
>Life is bad
WRONG

>>3111858
>Why are you assuming I'm an antinatalist?
Because you're arguing in support if the position.

>I just think this attack you all keep making to try to bring up how the opposing side hasn't committed suicide doesn't make much sense since it's an instinctual concern and is a cheap substitute for a real argument.

Instinct is a cheap substitute for an argument as well. Plenty of people are able to overcome instinct, and comparing antinatalists who won't commit suicide to the obese who won't put down the form doesn't work as losing a hundred plus pounds requires much more focused dedication than killing yourself. Killing yourself is instantaneous and can be done on a carelsss whim. Weight loss can't.

If antinatalists are incapable of committing to such an effortless act as suicide they clearly lack conviction in their beliefs.
What is it that holds then back?
Fear of pain?
There are plenty of painless suicide options.
Fear of non-existence?
Then that undermines their claim that non-existence is a preferable state to existence.

>>3112037
>respond to the threads actual topic
>muh heroin addicts
>stop talking about heroin addicts!
>"b-but y-you're just meta-c-complaining!!!"

kys

What if you just don't think you'd be a good parent ? What if you honestly think you wouldn't provide a good environment for a child to grow up ?
Antinatalists that use "woe is me life is shit" as an argument are missing the point
If you don't truly want kids, you are going to raise them bad, you are going to fuck them up and you are going to be responsible for the suffering they will generate around themselves
And natalists don't get it either. No one has a duty to procreate and everyone would be better off if we cooled it down with the shitting out of babies, for simple overpopulation problems
It's been ingrained into you that you have to have kids and perpetuate whatever, but in the end it's just a dishonest form of narcissism (most of the time)
The entire species will have disappeared in a million years, and even if they do survive, no one will remember us
Better to go to sleep gracefully and in control of your actions than kicking and screaming about some illusory notion of bloodline or what have you

>>3109482
>Our most favourite medieval antinatalist is a sad contrarian fedora, who died a single virgin, lived with his mom all his life, and wrote edgy poems;
Why am i not surprised?

Atleast that guy had the excuse of being blind to be like that, unlike the faggots on this thread.

>>3111929
>They just do it to try to feel normal because they'll become violently, pants shittingly ill if they stop.
Which undermines the comparison as committing suicide does not necessarily force a person to go through a period of feeling violently pants shittingly ill.

>>3112088
>illusory notion of bloodline or what have you
>Heritage doesn't exist
>Biological determinism doesn't exist
>Our instincts to self preservation aren't innate
Jesus Christ kid you had better be posting b8

>>3112078
This. If you're an anti-natalist and you think life sucks its probably because you've been filling your head with stupid ideologies and 'morals' instead of happy chemicals through doing stuff you enjoy.

>>3109307
>in experience there is a chance you can suffer
>the only logical conclusion is to prevent experience

>>3111618
>your sysem of morality is retarded because of the practical limitations of their total aapplication

No anon, you are retarded

>>3112104
yeah but it doesn't serve any kind of purpose
at this point you're just blindly self-replicating for the sake of it, like a broken program
it's pointless

>>3112069
No, risk of any one disease might not be large but the risk of you getting one of these diseases at some point is pretty high. And despite popular belief, doctors can't just make you better with a magic pill, chronic illness more often means at best you can sometimes make some of the symptoms less bad. Look up prednisone for autoimmune diseases (a class of diseases with many members) as an example. It's the standard treatment for a lot of them and it only partially succeeds at tamping down inflammation while simultaneously setting you up for even worse medical problems later. Like I mentioned earlier, I don't really care much about the consent issue or most anything else that comes up with these arguments, but holy fuck yes diseases are definitely bad enough today, right now, in the modern developed world, to where I can't fault anyone for being antinatalist.

>>3111642
antinatalists are saying life is about as meaningless as having a cactus shoved into your ass. Just because te meaning is negativve doesn't suggest there is no meaning at all.

>>3112119
Anti-natalism is intellectualized defeatism.

File: grand-kids-life-success-1-1024.jpg (207KB, 1024x768px) Image search: [Google]

207KB, 1024x768px

> he supports being biological loser

>>3112179
>defeatism
defeat in the face of what ?
life isn't a contest, it's an accident

>>3112103
Analogies aren't identities. If the analogy were identical to the referent there would be no point in making the analogy in the first place since you'd just be comparing the thing to itself.
And also you're mixing up the analogy's mappings. Life is being compared to heroin addiction, suicide is being compared to getting off heroin. You're trying to map heroin addiction to suicide instead of to life, which is wrong.

>>3111678
>muh parties

lol

>>3112162
The purpose of life is to experience and struggle , the syllogism you operate under is that life is painful therefore life and the continuation of life is meaningless. I say that life is painful therefore life is meaningful and the continuation of life is of great teleological purpose. Pain is not something to be shunned it is something to be welcomed.

>>3112173
>doesn't suggest there is no meaning at all
Then what is the objective "meaning" then, pleb? I'm sure you're not a brainlet that asserts things without proof, amirite :^).

>>3112181
>muh family line
There would be nothing left of your shit genes in 20 generations, retard.

>>3112185
Contests are also an accident by the same standard.

>>3111705
We already covered that pedro.

>>3112202
>The purpose of life is to experience and struggle
>proofs of this: muh feelz
Whoa, nice mindwank.

What frantick Fit (quoth he) hath thus distraught
Thee, foolish Man, so rash a Doom to give?
What Justice ever other Judgment taught,
But he should die, who merits not to live?
None else to Death this Man despairing drive,
But his own guilty Mind deserving Death.
Is then unjust to each his Due to give?
Or let him die, that loatheth living Breath?
Or let him die at ease, that liveth here uneath?

Who travels by the weary wandring way,
To come unto his wished Home in haste,
And meets a Flood, that doth his Passage stay,
Is not great Grace to help him over-past,
Or free his Feet, that in the Mire stick fast?
Most envious Man, that grieves at Neighbour's good,
And fond, that joyest in the Woe thou hast,
Why wilt not let him pass, that long hath stood
Upon the Bank, yet wilt thy self not pass the Flood?

He there does now enjoy eternal Rest
And happy Ease, which thou dost want and crave,
And further from it daily wanderest:
What if some little Pain the Passage have,
That makes frail Flesh to fear the bitter Wave?
Is not short Pain well born, that brings long Ease,
And lays the Soul to sleep in quiet Grave?
Sleep after Toil, Port after stormy Seas,
Ease after War, Death after Life, does greatly please.

>>3111734
I am currently consenting not non-sky-diving and uninterstellar travel

>>3112219
I didn't not consent to your non-consent anon, apologize.

>>3111873
1913 called, they want their psychological theories back.

>>3112185
>In the face of what
Pain
>Life is an accident
Life is a contest.

File: y9vlq.jpg (150KB, 1920x1440px) Image search: [Google]

150KB, 1920x1440px

>>3112020

>>3112215
>The purpose of life is to give up and stop existing
>Source muh feels
Nice mindwank.

>>3112202
I get what you're saying, but why ?
where is the virtue in pain ?
what is virtue ?
your thought pattern rests on quite a lot of shaky or plain made-up concepts
I enjoy life like it is right now, and I don't think it's the agreable or the responsible thing to do to have a child
also I'm very lucky, I've got a good life, good parents, but I wouldn't be able to provide a child with the same advantages in life that I got and it would be a shitty period for me, my partner and my child
maybe I'll change my take on it later, but I don't see it coming
>>3112210
because they are part of existence
but in and of themselves, they are void of meaning
>>3112236
sorry to learn that your rational thinking has been annihilated
defining yourself in opposition to others will only bring you pain
so I guess your life is pain, if you hold yourself to these foolish standards
my life just is

>>3112240
>The purpose of life
There is no objective purpose in life since "purpose" is a manmade concept.

>>3112245
>>3112240
>>3112215
also, life doesn't have an intrisic purpose
you decide what purpose your life has
technically you're both right, but if your life choices cause you to be sad or to hurt, maybe you should reevaluate them

>>3111814
>1.

No I don't revel in my existence. I grieve it and try to live stoically so I am less effected by the idea of myself and whatever stupid thing I imagine
i am being deprived of. If it sounds boring as fuck well then too bad for me.

>2.

My idea of the world being a better place is suffering being literally impossible. Also it doesn't follow that my commitment to non-harm and stoicism means that I'm more tuned into the cnsequences of my actions than most people.

>>3111819
>I guarantee you more people like Katy Perry to Mozart so therefore the instinctual deterrents against Mozart are stronger than those against Katy Perry

Indeed its lonely here at the top of philosophical discourse

>>3112181
The obsession with reproduction is nothing more than a desperate, yet futile search for meaning. You desire to reproduce because you have given up on finding meaning in this life, and hope that your children, as a proxy for yourself, will succeed in finding meaning. In the end, it's just repeating a cycle for its own sake, there is never any real progress or change until the cycle is finally terminated by someone not reproducing.

Also, the idea that having grandkids is the definition of biological success seems kind of arbitrary. You point out that your immediate children could become antinatalists, but then, seem to assume that the same couldn't happen to your grandchildren, or their descendants. I suspect you avoided addressing it because it would force you to realize the fragility of your position - every single family line will end eventually, even if it doesn't happen until the heat death of the universe. Your choices can only delay the inevitable. It's not like if your family line continues long enough that your descendants can "ascend" and escape the inevitable end of it all.

>>3112265
>I grieve it and try to live stoically
just kill yourself already, or reevaluate your life
there's no point in moping around and sucking other people's resources
it's basically as bad as making a child from your point of view
so you either admit you're a whiny faggot and get off your ass and start contributing to the world, or you (and this is not an attack) kill yourself
if you're not happy about living and have already decided you would feel that way forever, why would you even keep on doing it ?
are you just holding on for the pleasure of complaining ? some sort of judeo-christian delusion of martyrdom ?

>>3112236
> Life is a contest.
So... What is a prize?

>>3112292
it's a contest without a prize aka a game where no one wins but everyone should enjoy themselves

>>3112250
>Purpose is a construct and not an observation
Another mindwank whose source is muh feels. Are you really going to go down the post modernist route that eventually leads you to solipsism?

>>3112292
Fulfillment, facing struggle in itself is what gives meaning. Finding meaning is a choice.

>>3112305
>not an observation
What did you observe to derive your purpose, brainletto?

>>3112048
was gonna say tho

>>3112065
>I relish pain
>calling other people edgy

t. cutting emo faggot

>>3112312
>Fulfillment, facing struggle in itself is what gives meaning. Finding meaning is a choice.
Are you 12? Where do you derive all that bullshit from?

>>3112287
>every single family line will end eventually, even if it doesn't happen until the heat death of the universe
His genetics will be dilluted into nothingness way before anywhere close to the heat death of the universe even if his descendents never fail to reproduce. It's the same as half-life on drug metabolism, you keep dividing and in a few steps end up with effectively nothing left.

>>3112069
>conquer all diseases
>suddenly stubbing your toe is the most horrific experience imaginable

Wow the wild ride really has no end

>>3112084
I'm arguing against bad rhetoric

>>3112312
so you admit you're just awarding yourself your own prize ?
it's cute, like you cut out cardboard medals and reward yourself for going through the day
or is it the cardboard medal at the end of the day that gets you through it ?
do you see the hypocrisy in this ? you're just looking for ways to be a victim because it makes you feel special, or for ways to feel good about yourself
be honest with yourself and you'll have an easier time

>>3112085
>What is argument by analogy

>>3112092
I hope you're joking. We didn't have male virginity back then.

>>3112204
The meaning is to ameliorate the inherent conditions. "Hey I don't like having a prickly anus so I'm not going to give anyone else the prickly anus treatment"

Pretty standard stuff. Golden rule and such

>>3112240
Try

>source: entirety of human history

People from the first century would think this was some kind of magical utopia and yet everyone, regardless of their walk of life is still whinging about something.

>>3112197
>You're trying to map heroin addiction to suicide instead of to life, which is wrong.
Wrong, I'm mapping breaking heroin addiction to suicide, because in order for the analogy comparing life to heroin addiction to life to work you must argue that we are physically addicted to life and that there are similar addiction reinforcement mechanisms that prevent a person from breaking their addiction.

The problem is there are no such mechanisms, no one is addicted to life it is possible to quit it on a whim at any time, so then what's the point of comparing life to heroin addiction?

>>3112290
>kys

Why?

>because I don't like yer

Okay

>>3112334
Exactly, in 100 years to what extent are your personal genetics at all relevant? Its just a poor surrogate for immortality.

>>3112328
I relish struggle and pain. That doesn't mean I inflict unnecessary pain to experience pain, I experience pain to overcome it.
>>3112330
Are you 12? You are like a child pouting that they have to brush their teeth and shower.

>>3112427
>because I don't like yer
absolutely not
it's because you obviously don't love yourself, otherwise you wouldn't be putting yourself through this
learn to love yourself, learn not to care, or choose to suppress the ability of caring in you (drugs, suicide, voluntary alienation)

>>3112345
>Card board medals
No, I am facing life and enjoying the experience under the conclusion that the experience of life is worth it in itself.

So many edgy emo fags ITT holy shit. The sheer amount of projection...

>>3112419
No try
>Muh feelings
Again.

>>3112420
>that there are similar addiction reinforcement mechanisms that prevent a person from breaking their addiction
That was the original point: most people who want to die don't commit suicide because they're instinctually compelled not to.
>no one is addicted to life it is possible to quit it on a whim at any time
No it isn't. That's the point. Many people want to but don't. Just like with heroin addicts. You can want to stop a thing and still have involuntary instincts or compulsions that keep you from doing so. That's what happens with heroin addicts and that's what happens with suicidal people who can't bring themselves to end their lives.

>>3112318
I observed purpose as I have already described. Don't worry Anon, we all go through an edgy phase when we are young.

>>3112401
>i-it was real in my mind
You just assert concepts as facts.

>>3112444
>You are like a child pouting that they have to brush their teeth and shower.
>arguments detected: 0

>>3112318
In other words , purpose is something in itself in case you pseuds can't figure that out.

>>3112449
Yeah but I don't care about that.

>>3112462
>Are you 12? Where do you derive all that bullshit from?
>arguments detected 0
A non argument is met with a non argument, I was mocking you ya brainlet

>>3112444
>I cut myself so I can feel like a badass

Yeah that doesn't sound edgy at all

>>3112462
>You just assert concepts as facts.

Everyone in this thread has done that and must necessarily do so. What a banal thing to say.

>>3112476
>I cut myself
*I challenge myself. Stop projecting your degeneracy onto me. Dyel?

>>3112451
>edgy emo fags
>"life is paaaaain and I love paaaain because it makes me feel aliiiive"
ok sweetie
you're a special kid
>>3112467
so you're just a depressed faggot that wants to let everyone know about how miserable he is ?
be honest with yourself and others, and stop giving a bad name to rational antinatalism
this is just a pretentious way to be an attention whore

>>3112461
>I observed purpose as I have already described
>lalala things are real in my mind
Either provide proof or stop spouting idealistic bullshit.

>>3112465
>something in itself
i.e. subjective

>>3112472
>non argument
Because it's a question, micromind.

>>3112494
Nigger the amount of projection you are showing is just sad. Experiencing life involved pain, that means challenging yourself is challenging pain. That doesn't mean cutting yourself lmao

>>3112484
>must necessarily do so
The absolute state of the counterside right now. This is why we can't have anything nice ever.

>>3112489
At the very least you at least now understand that its easy to ascribe a position to a particular mentality. You're welcome

>>3112495
>Either provide proof or stop spouting idealistic bullshit.
I have you proof that you're too stupid to understand as proof. Yes people can find different callings in life
>It's a question
That I already answered so it's actually just an ad hom... Unless you are just that much of a brainlet

>>3112494
Oh so you're an antinatalist then, good :^)

>>3112508
>At the very least you at least now understand that its easy to ascribe a position to a particular mentality
I wonder if this sentence actually makes sense in your demented mind.

>>3112219
You're currently consenting to not do a lot of things anon, what's your point?
My point is that consent is an act of agency, and no matter what decision you make regarding conception, you are denying agency to the hypothetical person and deciding what is best for them without their consent.

>>3109490
Please don't have children. Thanks.

>>3112512
>different callings
>translation: I want to do this and dat mum, why, because fuck u
Your concepts =/= facts

>answered
No you haven't. You just assert without objective evidence and want people to treat it as if it's a fact.

>>3112505
Facts are coercive. If someone had unambiguous facts then everyone would be agreeing nd there would be no argument. The best anyone can do is theorize.

>>3112527
My point is your a weaselly idiot with a conveniently deranged idea of consent

>>3112501
okay but some pain is avoidable
don't try to tell me that seeking pain isn't masochism
>>3112514
yes, I know, it's a great feeling to know you're not going to leave anything behind you
of your own volition, that is

>>3112527
You don't need consent to not do things you retard. Nobody's going to prison for not having sex with someone without consent. A lack of action isn't the same as an action.

>>3109322
>abortion
>what if the fetus consents tho

>>3112535
>If someone had unambiguous facts then everyone would be agreeing
>flat earth exists
Well, that was fast

>what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence
Basically all the plebs itt spouting their mindfiction can fuck off.

>>3112534
>I want to do this and dat mum, why, because fuck u
What the fuck. Maybe you really are underage

>>3112559
It's not seeking pain for the purpose of being pained, it is challenging pain and overcoming it. Masochists seek pain just to feel pain for a sexual fetish, thats a pretty major difference

>>3112620
Using "calling" as an argument is basically this.

>>3112534
>You just assert without objective evidence and want people to treat it as if it's a fact.
I'm pretty sure you asserting that life is pointless a priori is a testament that you have no idea what facts even are. There is an objective method of behavior to search for meaning in your own life which is subjective, which is something I've been trying to explain to you but somehow you're too stupid to figure this out.

>>3112535
>Facts are coercive.
No
>The only way for something to be a fact is for a fact to be understood a priori
No

>>3112642
>The meaning of one's life is inherently objective and not subjective because people are totally the same person in all fundamental ways
No, just no. That is not an argument against anything I was saying that was just you being a moron who is projecting his own emotional issues onto me when I argued that life's meaning can be found through an objective methodology but is subjective to the person.

>>3112629
so you have a moral fetish
not such a big difference

>>3112681
>objective methodology but is subjective to the person
>objective is subjective
This might actually be the dumbest fucking argument I've seen on /his/. The thing about objectivity is that it's universal.

>projecting his own emotional issues
How exactly. By calling you out on your emotionally-based arguments?

>>3109482
"In 2013, a statue of Al-Maʿarri located in his Syrian hometown was beheaded by jihadists from the Al-Nusra Front.[4]"

HA HA HA HA

Cucked a thousand years in the future.

>>3112698
>Moral
No, challenging yourself to find the given true of who you are does not explicitly lead to a moral conclusion.
>>3112713
>Objective methodology = subjective truth
Are you... Just really that stupid that you saw the words objective and subjective and completely ignored the context of either words? Really?

>>3112563
>A lack of action isn't the same as an action.
Antinatalists really are brainlets, not to mention total scum.

Try using that "inaction isn't the same as an action" argument in a court of law as a defense against manslaughter, see how far it gets you.

>>3112665
No but the only way for us to talk about it as fact is for it to be understood a priori

>>3112750
Hey wait a second, that gives me an idea

>your honor he didn't consent to not being killed

>>3112752
Does a posteriori just not exist in your world?

File: 1500400683210.jpg (365KB, 2000x1000px) Image search: [Google]

365KB, 2000x1000px

Really makes you think.

>>3112763
Which would be a completely valid argument in a jurisdiction that allowed euthanasia.

>>3112786
I can admit there are facts which exist outside of my frame of reference but I don't know which those are before I accept them as true

>>3112817
>memeball.jpg

>>3112820
The entire methodology I have proposed supports an objective method to find a posteriori facts about your subjective truth. This is not an a priori postulation , but is built well within darwinian behavioral theories and biological determinism that a person is born with an inherent teleological purpose which they are born to fulfill. That doesn't necessarily lead one to a "moral" end , it's simply leads to self discovery. You might find out you're just an asshole and really couldn't care less.

File: 1304376955947.png (457KB, 600x450px) Image search: [Google]

457KB, 600x450px

>>3112796
>Canada
No one cares about cuck land

>>3112750
Great example retard, gross neglect isn't the same as simple inaction. It's not gross neglect if you refrain from having a child. You're refraining from having a child almost every second of every day of your life. That's why your argument is shit and ridiculous. You're literally trying to convince people failing to get consent to *not* have sex with them is the same as failing to get consent to have sex with them. You're actually arguing that I'm raping you right now by failing to get your permission to not put my dick inside you.

>>3112855
>behavioral theories and biological determinism that a person is born with an inherent teleological purpose which they are born to fulfill.
...Theories that also postulate this teleological purpose is dependent on the individual.

>>3112796
Zero growth is ideal though.

>>3113051
t. leaf

>>3112163
>No, risk of any one disease might not be large but the risk of you getting one of these diseases at some point is pretty high.
Then kill yourself.
No, really, if you think the chance is that big, not shooting your brains out is the bad choice.
And yes, i mean you, not "muh unconsented baby that may or not exist in the future."

What's the point of antinatalism?

I mean as "we'd probably be better off with a billion people at most"...then maybe yeah.

But trying to say "The sum of ills is more than the sum of happiness" forgets that one of the lesson of higher hedonics is...

1. Pleasure and happiness are so savory, precisely because they are allotted in rare and random moments.

If you've allowed yourself the pleasure of fasting for three days and then made the most fat and protein stacked meal...

There's nothing like eggs and bacon cooked in coconut oil after not having food for days. Hunger is the ultimate spice.

>>3112435
>Exactly, in 100 years to what extent are your personal genetics at all relevant?
More than a quarter of me will perpetuate in multiple people.
I mean, c'mon, we found out some black centurion from roman times has had an impact on genetics in 2 villages in Britbongistan, ffs.

>>3113302
>CONT

So I got a bit off track but one can (reasonably I think) make an analogy between how rarity influences taste and apply that to our phenomenological experience.

You can't say that evil and hurt is a refutation of life. One good day can redeem an eternity of suffering. One realization of strength can redeem an eternity of weakness and abuse.

There is no golden standard for how higher hedonic systems are "supposed" to work.

>>3112961
>It's not gross neglect if you refrain from having a child
Why?
Because you say so?
The fact that you recognize gross negligence in the first place undermines the argument that inaction can never be morally wrong.

>>3113274
>if you think
It's not an opinion. You're probably going to get a fucked up disease at some point in your life. I don't understand how you could fail to notice that. At best you might not get one until you're much older, like with alzheimers or many of the more common cancers.

>>3113315
CONT

And at the same time, we live in an uncertain world. We have no heaven to guide us. What makes you think that you have found the golden truth and its secret poison?

Maybe you should eat a more savory diet. I'd would kill myself if damned to oatmeal and rice.

>>3113302
No all hedonists are of the Cyrenaic sort

>>3113328
>.You're probably going to get a fucked up disease at some point in your life.
No, i don't know what fucking Mordor you come from, but we don't get flesh-eating bacteria as a normal part of aging.

All my relatives lived and died pretty fine, except a distant uncle that got Parkinsons, but he still had a nice life toward the end.

Seriously, the only thing that might be an issue in modern times is cancer, and that still seems to be more of an issue of modern man chugging cancerigens like an idiot, and not some inevitable fate.

>>3113392
>Cancer isn't a "fucked up disease"

>>3113328
So?
If they that bothers you so much then jump in front of a train, or even better deliberately infect yourself with AIDS since contracting a horrible disease is an inevitability and cut to the chase

>>3109322
>not raising your sons to be tough guys
you're parents didn't do it and look how well that went

>>3113318
>Why?
Because if refraining from having a child were gross neglect, then eveyone would be committing gross neglect almost every second of every day. And that's the exact opposite of what using the modifier 'gross' is for if it's something everyone does constantly that nobody ever gets in trouble for. Gross means excessive / abnormally reprehensible in that context, you can't possibly call not having a child a gross offense if for no other reason than the fact we're all not having children on a regular basis and it's 100% socially acceptable and not at all offensive to anyone's morality to spend time not making kids.
Also you're using gross negligence and inaction interchangably in that last sentence which is wrong. And you probably know you're not making real arguments. I'm guessing you have some weird idea in your head that it's OK for you to make ridiculous claims like 'you need consent to not have sex with someone' because you're being what you mistakenly believe is logically correct, but really it's not OK. It's retarded.

>>3113392
lol, go visit a hospital and tell the doctors there how the only fucked up disease left is cancer and that even then it's mostly self-caused. Tell me how that works out for you. Maybe they might introduce you to some of those ultra rare non-perfect humans that you've never seen before in your life.

>>3113420
Being tough doesn't prevent suffering, it just means you're sufficiently spooked to think that some made-up ideals are more important than preventing suffering.

>>3112297
> one should imagine Sisyphus happy

the current state of natalistcucks

>>3109512
This anon speaks the truth.

>>3113441
>Because if refraining from having a child were gross neglect, then eveyone would be committing gross neglect almost every second of every day

They are though.
If you're not dedicating every moment of your life to ensuring the survival of your genes you are being grossly negligent.

I realize this hurts your feelings but it's true.

>>3113489
>tell the doctors there how the only fucked up disease left is cancer
Im not saying that, im saying that's the only thing a normal person should worry might likely happen to him in an average human lifetime that's really debilitating.
Of course, black swan events in all areas of life can happen, but we don't base our main planning and lives around those, cuz it's moronic.

And most of the nasty genetic stuff your kid would get you can avoid by getting your genetic pedigree and other tests done.

>>3113531
>Calls others spooked
>Thinks preventing suffering matters

Antinatalists are retarded.

>>3114488
give one (1) proof that giving birth to a person is an altruistic and positive act, based on cold scientific logics and facts and not muh feels or muh world view

protip: you can't

>>3114482
>black swan
Chronic illness isn't a black swan event. It's a very strong likelihood for everyone at some point in their lives eventually. You're looking at each of the countless many diseases in isolation and thinking because this one or that one isn't too common then none of them are common, but if you have 1000 different 1/1000 chances of something happening, then you have a pretty strong chance of one of those things happening. And of course not all of these diseases are even uncommon as a thing in themselves. I can safely bet one or more of the people posting in this thread either already has some variety of cancer or will be getting it in the future. If it were actually super-uncommon to get a fucked up disease at some point in your life then I might agree with you that it's bad but arguably negligible as a concern e.g. I don't think the risk of ALS on its own is much of a reason to consider creating life a harm even though it's a super-horrible thing that you would never want to live through. That's just not the case though. In reality, extremely hellish disease is still a concern, even in modern times, even in developed nations. You haven't had one yet, but plenty of people around you are dealing with their own personal hells and you just aren't aware of it. I don't think most people with chronic diseases bring it up in casual conversation at the workplace, but trust me, they're not nearly as rare as you think. I live in a relatively normal US city (Dallas) and work a normal office job doing automation development and I can give you more examples of people just in that environment over the years with afflictions a sane human being won't feel good thinking about then you'd probably guess. Though then again I think a lot of people who haven't yet ran into a biological reminder they aren't invincible don't truly grasp what it's like. I remember back when my body still worked perfectly in my 20s, I know I definitely didn't appreciate what it meant then.

>>3114488
>preventing suffering doesn't matter
It's arguably the only thing that matters. There's a reason Gautama Buddha zeroed in on that specific topic and repeatedly made it a point to say he wasn't trying to give you the meaning of life or the story of how the world came to be or any of those other big picture ideas people spend their lives mulling on. He's known for having sat down under a tree for a really fucking long time (49 days is the claimed length) and deciding not to move until he had reality sorted out, and the big payoff for all that meditating was identifying suffering, its requisite causes, and the means of cessation for it. This idea was powerful enough to get some 300+ million modern adherents, so I'd argue that puts it on par with the other big ideas of history like breaking your heart over Jesus letting himself be crucified to pay the toll of sin for all mankind or recognizing there is no god but God and he's everywhere in the world around you. I mean, you don't have to be a Buddhist, or a Christian, or a Jew to recognize these are some of humanity's absolute most powerful memes and that it probably isn't just a coincidence they caught on as much as they did.

>>3114504
Give one proof that altruism matters based on cold scientific logic and facts.

protip: you can't

File: dips.png (51KB, 370x370px) Image search: [Google]

51KB, 370x370px

>>3114897
> these are some of humanity's absolute most powerful memes

Whether you're trying to be cute or you're seriously nodding to Dawkins, you've earned this tip good sir.

>>3114897
>The fucking Buddha
>Not one of the biggest spooks of them all

If you're going to complain about Stirnerian spooks, then antinatalists are incredibly spooked, as they are prioritizing the entirely hypothetical comfort of an entirely hypothetical someone else over their own objective genetic self-interests, for no reason other than the spooks we call altruism and mercy.

>>3115158
I don't mean it in a negative way. I don't think memes are bad. It's just a way of framing ideas in terms of fitness. I don't think these memes would've been as massively successful as they've been if there wasn't something exceptionally valuable about that. Which I think I communicated already, so I don't get why you're acting like I'm an atheist putting these ideas down.

>>3115162
>genetic self-interests
Even if you successfully propagate your genes and your children do the same and their children do the same etc. your genetic contribution will be down to 0.0001% within 20 generations barring inbreeding.

>>3115208
So?
That doesn't change the fact that it is in your genetic self-interest to do so.

>>3115214
>That doesn't change the fact that it is in your genetic self-interest to do so.
Yes it does. It wouldn't be in your financial interest to invest $100 and have it end up as $0.0001. It's more like it's in the best interests of each of your individual genes, but that's different from it being a self-interest. Your genes are just using you as a stepping stone, your own contribution is diluted out of the gene pool pretty rapidly. At an exponential rate as a matter of fact.

>>3109398
>human progress
subjective and potentially meaningless.
Tell me, what have we "accomplished" so far? why is any of our technological prowess something "good"

>>3109503
We're obviously compelled to live. It's a natural instinc you moron. That says nothing about wether or not you should.
It's incredibly obvious you haven't read a proper philosophy book in your life. You're taking a lot of things for granted with every single sentence you type.

>>3114478
Biological survival is at most only the means to an end. Focusing on that at the expense of all else is like selling the wheels of your car to repair the engine.

>>3114488
>acting in your own self-interest is spooked

>>3114504
>>3115127
Science cannot make value judgements.

>>3115245
>It wouldn't be in your financial interest to invest $100 and have it end up as $0.0001.
It is if the alternative is to not invest it and have it end up at zero.

> Your genes are just using you as a stepping stone,
You are your genes and nothing more.

>>3115273
Nigger I've deconstructed and reconstructed concepts you haven't even realized exist yet.

>>3115450
>acting in your own self-interest is spooked
Except "ethical" antinatalists aren't acting in their own self-interest. They're foregoing positive experience and all the potential personal benefits of reproduction all so that some hypothetical being doesn't hypothetically get inconvenienced at some point in life.

Spooked as fuck.
Hedonistic antinatalists are a whole different kettle of fish who I don't really have a beef with even if I may disagree with their personal choices.

>>3115484
>You are your genes and nothing more.
So people shouldn't feel bad about shitposting and playing video games all day? Since going out and getting a job and having a social life wouldn't improve your genes.

>>3115162
>Stirner was a genetics fag

>>3112727
Are you celebrating the destruction of historical monuments by religious fanatics?

>>3115944
Yes sure enough, so stop doing those things

>>3109307
sdf

>>3115963
>Al-Maʿarri

If you weren't such a virtue signaling faggot, you'd get the humor.

File: Haldane’s+Approach+Imagine+that+the+new+mutation+sits+at+the+root+of+a+tree+of+descendants..jpg (72KB, 960x720px) Image search: [Google]

72KB, 960x720px

>>3114760
>but if you have 1000 different 1/1000 chances of something happening, then you have a pretty strong chance of one of those things happening.
You fail statistics forever.
>Though then again I think a lot of people who haven't yet ran into a biological reminder they aren't invincible don't truly grasp what it's like.
Bitch, i nearly died from a nasty accident.
Cerebral hemorrhaging, long recovery and all hat.
Still have a slightly gimped leg.

>>3115245
>Yes it does. It wouldn't be in your financial interest to invest $100 and have it end up as $0.0001.
Actually, it would be investing 100$, and getting halved diminishing returns across centuries.
Which is a pretty sweet gig.
And that's just if somehow there will only be 1 descendant per generation forever, and not the exponential clusterfuck that usually happens.

And given genetic markers will be recognizable across millennia, your analogy falls on it's face.

>>3116055
I don't get it because brainlet

Antinatlism is retarded shit based on utilitarian morals of "suffering is a bad thing and it's badness is someone inherent and transcendent"s, aka baby's first moral perspective.
Suffering is a tool to make you stop doing things that impede your gene reproduction.

>>3109322
>people are forced to born without consent
That's even more stupid than saying "you shouldn't throw a rock without its consent".

>>3116680
no in fact that is the stupidest argument by analogy ever. If you threw the rock and then it became sentient as a result only to suffer head trauma upon hitting the ground then the analogy would be fair and you'd indeed be an asshole for doing that.

>>3116654
First and the best. All of the other ones are based on arbitrary fictions or wishful thinking. Suffering is the category that is hardest to deny.

>>3116680
Forcing someone into exitance without their consent is a violation of the NAP.

>>3116722
No because they are past my property line being inside my ballsack and therefore I am free to dispose of them however I wish

>>3116698
I didn't say it's a good analogy, I said it's ever more stupid. Rocks can't consent because of what they are, people can't consent to being brought into the world because consent requires existence, which they lack. Asking for consent in a situation where consent is ontologically impossible is idiotic.
Of course, idiocy is what one should expect from both antinatalists and peddlers of consent morality.
>>3116722
>nap

>>3116733
> Rocks can't consent because of what they are
This is what filthy organic-suprematists really believe in.

>>3116733
ye they can't consent, that's what we're saying.

>>3109341
>Africans and asians are breeding like rats
>better exterminate the relatively minute population of europeans
it's 2017 folks
>inb4 /pol/

>>3116779
Nobody talking about exterminating white race.

>>3109341
>>3116779
Boo hoo these europeans need to stop making babies, world's become a overpopulated

>link related
>https://www.google.co.uk/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=sp_pop_totl&idim=country:GBR:FRA:DEU&hl=en&dl=en#!ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=sp_pop_totl&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=region&idim=region:EAS:ECS:LCN:MEA:NAC:SAS:SSF&ifdim=region&tstart=-298602000000&tend=1405465200000&hl=en_US&dl=en&ind=false

>>3116783
>>3109341
>Being antinatalist is the ONLY viable stance today. Humans are breeding like rats, less people = less problems in the world

>>3116792
I don't see anything about white people in your quoted phrase. Maybe, you are a bit too paranoid here with your delusions of prosecution?

>>3116751
It's a nonsensical statement, they can't consent because they don't exist, you're not violating their will, their will isn't there.

I have an idea.
Antinatalists just need to invent time-travel, so they can ask their future possible children is bring brought into this world seems like a good idea.

Simple.
Get to work and be useful antinatacucks.

File: 54F94054-0F65-482D-821C-D4C315D22BCA-6474-000003B9E1EA705D.jpg (467KB, 1233x1435px) Image search: [Google]

467KB, 1233x1435px

>>3109490
You are doing gods work anon

>>3109375
faggot, overpopulation isn't a problem of modern western industrial states.

/leftypol/ advocates the same intellectual absolutism and dgomatism like /pol/.

>"muh genetics";"muh 6 white, Christian children"
>"muh getting kids is selfish";"we have overpopulation in the west, we need to die off"

fuck, both of you niggers

>"If you accidentally get pregnant/get a girl pregnant u probably aren't in the position to be having a kid, practically, so you can't even provide for the thing which means more suffering"

by this stance, 99% of people throughout history shouldn't have been born because of "muh suffering"

even if you are a simple worker and can't afford everything, you can provide love and nurture you child the right way

defeatist college fags, stop living in abstracts, start living in this mean paradise

>>3116751
god, this is so borderline retarded

>-b-but the embryo can't consent

>>3117805
yes it can't consent so that doesn't mean you have assumed consent it means you have no consent. Its the exact same as asking whether you're allowed to do whatever you want to someone in a vegetated state.

>>3117790
>faggot, overpopulation isn't a problem of modern western industrial states.
It's a global problem. Trying to assign blame is pointless, the laws of nature don't care "whose fault it is". It's the equivalent of jumping off a cliff and expecting to survive because "you're a good person and don't deserve to die". It's not about blame, it's about whether a problem is addressed or not. If the "people whose fault it is" don't fix the problem, then it's on others to fix it, because the problem affects everyone.