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Is this the most embarrassing 19th to 20th century European nation?

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Is this the most embarrassing 19th to 20th century European nation?
Why is it so popular to make fun of the French as being bad at war when these clowns exist?

19th-20th century Italy thread.
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>>283048
Not half as embarrassing as your thread.
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>Italians putting pressure on Ethiopia during reign of Yohannes IV
>Ethiopians capture some Italian travellers and demand that Italy pull out of the town they had occupied
>Italy sends a brigade of 500 men to fortify
>it's ambushed and slaughtered
>Rome quietly sends the Ethiopia 1000 rifles asking for them to let the travellers go and forget about the whole thing

And I thought Adwa was embarrassing.
>>
>>283051

Sorry Giovanni.
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>>283048
si
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>>283048
They had the most fucked up wars too, such as the war of the league of cambrai
>>
>all these angry americans thinking wars defines all the value of a nation.

always makes me lel, must feel bad having no culture whatsoever and having to cope with insecurity with >m-mah gunz arguments.
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>>283141

Too bad I'm not American.
Are you Italian, by chance?
>>
>>283048
>maybe if i start an italian hate thread people still stop making fun of france, my home country :(
this is you
>>
>>283179
shh everything is going to be okay Jean-Louis.
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>>283141
There would be no irony or humor in it if it were a country with a non-confrontational pacifist culture.
However, Italy had a Fascist regime and its culture still emphasizes traditional masculinity. It's like a comedy character, a macho loudmouth who always starts shit and loses every fight.
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>>283181

Not French either, though I think France's meme position as the world's military losers is owed instead to Italy.
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>>283191
>and its culture still emphasizes traditional masculinity

no it doesn't, you know literally nothing about Italy don't you, you're the only loudmouth here my friend.

>always starts shit

incorrect.
>>
Would Italy be better off going back to a bunch of city-states?
>>
>>283191
What the actual fuck are you talking about?

>>283141
>old buildings are culture
fuck off
>>
>>283212
>I have only seen pictures of old building I am now expert on Italy and I declare it le shit country

beyond retarded
beyond mad
>>
>>283211
define better off
>>
Italy was always the subject of jokes about shitty military and known for it everywhere in Europe. Americans are the ones who replaced Italy with France and then forced it as a meme.
>>
>>283217
No, I didn't. You just assumed the people that were insulting you were American for some reason and started insulting America. It's an obvious sign of some kind of insecurity.
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>>283203
>no it doesn't, you know literally nothing about Italy don't you, you're the only loudmouth here my friend.
There are quantitative studies about values by region, such as the World Value Survey. Globally, Italy may not look very traditional but any meaningful comparison should be among European countries.
>>
>>283223
insecurity about what?

I have never heard any European talk shit as much as Americans do in this serious manner (not as a joke or banter) so yes I assumed OP was American.
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>>283234
>I have never heard any European talk shit as much as Americans do in this serious manner
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>>283230
>let me tell you about this survey I found that confirms my meme opinions

OK
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>>283242
>>>/int/
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>the defensive Italians in this thread
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>>283254
>starts generalizing and lashing out at people based on what nationality he thinks they are with no evidence beyond his own personal stereotypes
>tells ME to go to /int/
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>>283263
>starts an embrassing "banter" thread with no meaningful discussion points whatsoever
>expects well thought out retorts and debate

cool meme images btw
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>>283270
>accuses me of having started the thread, also with no evidence
>>
>>283270

Here's a discussion point for you from the OP:

Is Italy the most embarrassing 19th to 20th century European nation?

You can always take a contrary stance instead of being a big fucking nationalist baby crying about Americans who just don't UNDERSTAND.
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>>283124
Oh boy, what the fuck is this?
>>
>>283281
>meaningful

I think I'm just going to keep shitposting
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>>283292

Guess you can't think of a contrary stance, huh?
>>
Since all the buttblasted Italians can't even come up with any sort of rebuttal I'll throw this in the works to try and provoke something beyond this egotistical dickwaving and finger-pointing they're trying to debate with.

In the 19th to 20th century, which nation is more embarrassing, Austria (/ Austria Hungary) or Italy?
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>>283285
>Venetia
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>>283298
I can't take you seriously if you don't post a meme image to complement your post.
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>>283298
Austria-Hungary was able to beat Italy while literally collapsing and fighting on two other fronts. I think you know the answer.

>>283299
huh?
>>
>>283303

You're not even trying anymore, are you?
No wonder you faggots suck in warfare you can't even argue right.

Even with an abrasive OP the thread could have had a meaningful discussion without you shitting it up.
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>>283307
>still no memes provided

dude, embarassing
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>Italy
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>>283310

Could you start posting some significant Italian military victories now? I'm making fun of Italians and even I know they have a few, you should know plenty considering how proud you are.
>>
>>283316
>France concedes armistice as a result

I'd say it was a good gamble
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>>283323
I bet the Frogs just felt sorry for them and signed the armistice.
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>>283320
>waah waah do as I say now

lol I'm participating and enjoying your (admittedly flawless) thread OP, what else do you want?
>>
OBSESSED
>>
>>283329
how do I upvote this comment
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>>283331

epic, have a tumblr meme.
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>>283336
A gift worthy of yourself my rebbit friend.
>>
Italians had too many golden ages, Lady Fortune had to fix em up pronto.
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>>283285
>French and Venetian victory
Wat? How? What the hell was happening in this war?
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>>283364
Everyone left for Venetias side, then they left for France.
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>>283364
From memory :
>pope build coalition to weaken Venice, Venice btfo
>different opinions among allies, alliance broken, pope joins Venice
>pope gather other people and btfo France
>different opinons among allies about the gains, Venice join France
>Scotland join because auld alliance i think, why not earlier, idk
>holy league not so holy and btfo

tl;dr : Duchy of Ferrara best ally, and prohably not italian
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>>283048
The Italian military success started and ended with the Roman empire.
Whilst modern Italy was a military failure, culturally and economically they've done pretty well. Their mass migration and spread of culture has been arguably the strongest of recent times?
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>>283420
Ireland did it better desu
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>>283420

I rarely hear of any Italian economic success. How have they done well?
Unless you're referring to the middle ages and renaissance.
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>>283420
>spread of culture

Nothing relevant to global culture has come from Italy except delicious meals.
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>>283466
Cuisine is a very important component of culture. It influences social organization, physical health, and the economy. Every human being has to eat.
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>>283048
It's funny because they end up with the good guys
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>>283441
During the 80's Italy was a global top-5 economic player.
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>>283425
Lol not even close m8. Ireland had migration and thats it. Italian cuisine and fashion are so dominant in US and globally its not even comparable.

>>283441
Post WW2 they had a really big economic boom and industrialization in the North. So did a lot of other European countries and the US but still
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>>283048
Well, let's take a look at the wars/conflicts Italy has been in since it ounding in 1866.

- Third Italian War of Independence: Italy wins, and not only wins, but wins against Austria, at the time a major European power.
- Capture of Rome: Italy verses the Papal States and the Second French Empire. Italy wins.
- Eritrean War: Italy annexes part of Africa.
- First Italo-Ethiopian War: Italian defeat, thanks to Ethiopia being supplied arms by Russia, France, and the UK.
- Boxer Rebellion: Italy participates along with every other European nation worth a damn (and Japan and the US), and wins.
- Italo-Turkish War: Italy wins, gaining Tripolitania, Cyrenaica, Fezzan, and the Dodecanese Islands.
- First World War: Italy wins alongside the rest of the world.
- Allied Interventio in the Russian Civil War: Allied defeat, along with the rest of the Allies
- Occupation of Adalia: Italian victory until the forming of the Republic of Turkey.
- Vlora War: Italian defeat. Much sadness.
- Corfu Incident: Draw
- Insurgency in Libya: Italian crushing victory against Muslim rebels. Afterwards and in a matter of a few short years manages to make Libyans immensely pro-Italian, so it's also a major Italian PR coup.
- Second Italo-Abyssinian War: Crushing Italian victory
- Spanish Civil War: Nationalist victory, with immense help from Italy (they did more than Germany)
- Invasion of Albania: Italian victory. Take that, Albanians.
- World War II: Italian defeat. How long do YOU think you could fight Britain and the US at the same time?

After that it becomes a series of coalition stuff involivng NATO or the like. The major exception is Operation Alba, wherein Italy (the leader) with Greece helped put down rebellions in Albania.

Overall, Italy hasn't done too poorly for itself.
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>>283520
You're deluded, and i'm part Italian.
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>>283496
It still is today. Italy is the 8th richest country in the world by nominal GDP, and is a member of the G7.
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>>283532

I'm the OP so you can take what I say having started the thread basically shitting on Italy.
Prove him fucking wrong instead of saying this. He gave examples, which is basically what I was hoping for before the other Italian dropped his spaghetti everywhere.
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>>283048
>Why is it so popular to make fun of the French as being bad at war when these clowns exist?

Because the French used to be the best at war two centuries ago and suddenly became shit in recent time

Meanwhile, Italians havent been good at war since Rome fell, so no one expected anything from them in world wars
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>>283532
I'm just saying. Italy between 1866 and 1945 was involved in 16 wars or conflicts, and won 11 of them. Winning two-thirds of the time ain't bad when you're a second-tier power.

You have to remember that Italy went into WWII half-cocked anyway. Mussolini's own advisers said that Italy wouldn't be ready for war until 1943 at the earliest. Additionally the Spanish Civil War had led Italy down a few traps; for example the success of the Fiat CR.32 (one of the best biplanes ever built) convinced Italy that biplanes were still viable in warfare because of how well it performed in that conflict, when in fact they were obsolete by 1939.

That's basically the Italian Army's problem in WWII. Their equipment was fantastic - but it was a generation out of date.
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>>283498
>Ireland had migration.
Not really.

The Irish diaspora are a massive deal, but are often forgotten because of how well assimilated they are into the US and how ubiquitous Irish culture has become in the Anglophone world.

Literature is a massive achievement of Ireland, with Irish authors and playwrights being the favourite of pretentious hipsters all over the world.

Even the music of America is a mutation of Irish music in much the same sense that American fast food is a mutation of Sicilian cuisine. Even the most inalienably American piece of culture, rap, was invented in Ireland. The tradition, technique and themes of rap music is simply derived from Irish, and in a broader sense, Gaelic folk.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxBKgOyMzSc

Irish drink permeates not just the US, but the entirety of the world. We find Irish luxury goods such as Hennessy brandy being distilled as far afield as France.

Italian fashion also isn't dominant so much as considered fancy, like Italian sports cars.
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>>283555

>and suddenly became shit in recent time

But where does this even come from?
Is it just the Franco-Prussian war and WWII?
Even in WWI they took a lion's share of the fighting and held their own.
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>>283568
Yeah, they did okay in WW1 I guess
But compare their record these two last centuries to their pre-19th century record (pic related)

When you pass from "unchallenged number one" to "meh tier", it makes you look terrible even if in the end you just fell to average level
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>>283558
Oh, the other modern aircraft of choice for the Italians in WWII was the Macchi C.200. It had excellent speed, maneuverability, and flying characteristics, but was underpowered and underarmed due to, again, Italian military thinking traveling down the wrong roads.

As a further example of this, Mussolini didn't invest much into aircraft carriers (only one was ever begun, Aquila, and it was never finished), on the theory that Italy herself could serve as an unsinkable aircraft carrier; i.e., why have a ship (that can be sunk) carry planes when you can just launch planes directly from Italy or some other landmass?

He's not wrong, but he completely missed the point of an aircraft carrier, which is to give both tactical and strategic maneuverability, as well as cut down on the flight time of your aircraft and thus give them more fuel to conduct operations with.

Still, if Italy had invested in long-rage modern aircraft meant to cover the Mediterranean, he might have been vindicated. But Italy didn't, and rushed into the War early. So it lost.
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>>283532
>i'm part Italian.
>>
>>283608
In terms of genetics I'm wholly Irish - my parents only got off the plane in '86, I was born in '87 - though I was born in America and consider myself American.

In Kilkenny the brew of choice seems to be Smithwick's rather than Guinness. Not that you ever have to look far for Guinness.

...not sure what the point of this aside was.
>>
>>283048
Garibaldi's corpse could be used to fuel nuclear factories with all the energy coming from constantly rolling in his grave
>>
>>283554
>>283558
Didn't read past the first two exemples.

>Italy beat Austria. Italy strong.
Mate, Prussia destroyed Austria. Italy mostly lost, only Garibaldi and some volunteers did some good stuff.
But thanks to Prussia, Italy could occupy some land, but without direct support of Prussia, Italy had to retreat.
They have been only counted as victorious because they were allied with France and Prussia.
Austria didn't even gave Venetia to Italy because they didn't won any relevant battle.

>Italy beat Rome and France. Italy strong.
Come on, yes France was supporting Rome.
But Italians waited for Napoleon III's defeat against the Prussians, and French already left Rome. Only a thousand of Frenchs and Belges volunteers were there.
In the end it's a country (Italy) versus a city barely defended.

>>283608
I thought of that pic when i posted it. I did it to show i'm not some Italy-hater, shitposting with wikipedia's battle or any other stuff, just realist.
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>>283191
>Italy is Johnny Bravo
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>>283191
>its culture still emphasizes traditional masculinity. It's like a comedy character, a macho loudmouth who always starts shit and loses every fight.
dude what
like I'm Italian and quite /fit/ myself but it's got shit to do with impressing other people because of muh masculinity, I just like excersising
where the fuck do you even get this shit from?
>lemme tell you about your country!
>>
>>283663

We need some Johnny Bravo Mussolini.
>>
Threadly reminder Italy shouldn't exist as a nation, and the last 150 years mean jack shit, compared to the local history almost every city has.
t. Venetian
>>
>>283702
>venetian
Of course you'd think all of that
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>>283520
>Third Italian War of Independence: Italy wins, and not only wins, but wins against Austria, at the time a major European power.
stopped reading here
>The terms of the Peace of Prague included the giving of the Iron Crown of Lombardy to the Italian king and the cession of Venetia to France, as Napoleon III was acting as intermediary between Prussia and Austria. The Austrians also refused to surrender Venetia directly to Italy as the Italian army had performed very poorly and had not defeated the Austrian army. The Italians felt humiliated that they were not involved in the Austro-Prussian peace talks, and that they were to receive Venetia as a gift from France.
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>>283703
The Republic of Venice lived for 1100 years, when all around everyone was relentlessly merging and splitting, branched across al the Mediterranean, and kept contact with all the known world and even China. It's almost forgotten because the nationalist propaganda tend to cover up the historical relevance and culture of Venice.
>>
>>283783
WE WUZ KINGS
>>
>>283520
>- Third Italian War of Independence: Italy wins, and not only wins, but wins against Austria, at the time a major European power.
France did that. France defeated Austria for you and created your country. Italy gave them Nice and Savoy in exchange.

>- Capture of Rome: Italy verses the Papal States and the Second French Empire. Italy wins.
France had left. Napoleon III had intervened to keep the Vatican independent, and was guaranteeing that independent with a single French garrison in the Vatican. Italy had to wait for Napoleon III to be overthrown and for the French garrison to be removed to take the Vatican. But well done conquering a handful of priests.

>- Eritrean War: Italy annexes part of Africa.
Fucking kek. Yeah Italy managed to defeat a few naked niggers after getting defeated only once (the only time a European country ever lost to niggers).

Going to stop at the first three but the rest is blatant bullshit too.

Tough special mention for this one:

>- Spanish Civil War: Nationalist victory, with immense help from Italy (they did more than Germany)

since my grandfather fought in that war on the Francist side, and he used to tell a well known joke how as soon as it was time for charging and the Spaniards yelled "a la bayoneta! a la bayoneta!" the Italians would go "a la camioneta! a la camioneta!"
>>
>>283792
I'm just saying that Venice as a city, and the territory around it, has an identity that cannot be just wiped out by a bunch of powerful people redrawing borders on a map.

It's the same level of political idiocy that led the middle east to be the mess it is now: it was divided like a cake with no regard for any territorial identity by some clueless moron that had the luck to end up being powerful enough to be able to do shit like that.
>>
>>283821
>France did that. France defeated Austria for you and created your country. Italy gave them Nice and Savoy in exchange.

That was the Second one
He's talking about the Third one, when Italy attacked what was left of Austria after Prussia raped them
>>
>>283826
KINGS
I
N
G
S
>>
Italyfag here (sicily). I'm not nationalist at all but I rather like my country to be renowned for pizza, pasta and mandolin than for its chad war heroes.
Fuck it.
Garibaldi was the best commander of his time and he was italian. English and Americans were drooling to have him as a general in their wars.
Italians are opportunistic, not inherently idiots.
Just think that the whole world is fascinated with a violent culture like mafia, coming from illiterate peasants.
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>>283856
>Sicily
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>>283466
Cuisine and fashion are pretty much bigger than any other countries. To be fair most of it is bastardized shittier versions, but the American obsession with PIZZA and PASTA and their coffee where you get a GRANDAY AMERICANO and all that shit.
The Italian style aesthetic and all that for fashion to interior design and cars is really strong, but also bastardized, with shit like Gucci being fetishized by rap culture
>>
They get a lot of shit for WW2. In reality it was Mussolini overestimating Italian troops, and giving them shitty gear. I remember a poem or something that said the Italians were truly the bravest to follow the orders to charge into death during the invasion of Greece. Or to get into an outdated tank to defend North Africa.
>>
>>283898
>Italians were the bravest!!11
>Italians were the most coward11!!

somehow I don't believe either
>>
>>283466
>art
>scientific knowledge
>fashion
>music
>>
>>283566
Fair points, apart from the Rap one which I don't really understand, I'm pretty sure rap came from Jazz and Jazz came from Blues which came from Slaves and European music.
I agree that the Irish diaspora had a decent influence, but it was mainly on North America. Italian migration was also heavily in South America. Also it influenced more areas of society imo
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>>283568
Don't listen to any answer that isn't "american being buthurt over France not joining the Iraqi fiasco"
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>>283964
Shit was insane when you think about it
How can an entire nation be so easily brainwashed by its government?
>>
>>283964
Actually to be exact Americans started that meme in 1960 when De Gaulle left NATO and kicked US troops out of France.

But it remained contained in America and latent until the Iraq War when they revived it and started pushing it 24/7 on all their media, and it spread to every English speaking person in the world through the internet.
>>
Because Italians were divided as fuck, there was a shitload of Marxists, communists, anarchists and other fucktard in the army who didn't want to fight for Mussolini and thus they pretty much didn't. It's actually a miracle Mussolini prevented Italy from a full scale civil war.
>>
Perfect example why /his/ needs IDs. One shapeshifting shitposter can continually derail an entire thread.
>>
>>284030
More like people didn't want to die over a lost cause and they were only fighting because Mussolini dragged them into a war against the biggest world powers that everybody knew it couldn't be won.
It has nothing to do with marxists and anarchists or any other ideal, it was just basic opportunism and survival instinct.
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>>283048
Shit son, you know a country is sad when they can't beat Austria-Hungary without help.
>>
>>283964
>>284009
>>284023
>mfw the French were shat on for not taking part of the Iraq War
>mfw the same French now pay the consequences of that Iraq War they didnt fight (ISIS, who attacked Paris, exists because Saddam was deposed)

I would really, really hate the USA if I was French
>>
>>283568
>>283586
>france did ok in ww1

Fucking kek, the French general staff were fucking abysmal in World war 1.
>>
>>283305
>Austria-Hungary was able to beat Italy while literally collapsing and fighting on two other fronts. I think you know the answer.
Damn that is embarrassing. Especially that Italy launched its last great offensive after Austria had already begun dissolving while asking for an armistice, then acted like it was the Italian army that defeated them.
>>
>>284062
Just like for every country
France still single-handedly stopped the German advance at the First Marne and ended up as the leading nation of the Entente side (with Foch named as generalissimo)
>>
>>284082
>tfw everyone forgot Louis Franchet d'Espèrey
>>
>>284009
And now watch how far that shit will spike up because of the Paris attacks.
>>
>>284053
Cadorna was probably one of the worst idiots in history. He ended being marshal because he was the son of a famous general of the time, but he was a clueless moron. Every choice he made was wrong, and while the soldiers were actually brave, his tactics were simply idiotic, so thousands of men died because he was such an incompetent git; on top of that he kept bashing the troops, calling them cowards and blaming them for the defeats he cumulated.
>>
>>284053

But your pic shows that... They did?
>>
>>284030
in fact, there was exactly a finish war. the civil war (partisans vs fascists) was the cause of the fall of the regime, along with tons of English and Americans bombs
>>
>>283316
>tfw no marginot line on the France-Belgium border

That could have been the Germans
>>
>>284053
>stop exploding you cowards
>>
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>The German soldier has impressed the world, however the Italian Bersagliere soldier has impressed the German soldier.
What did he mean by this?
>>
>>285223
Germans were homos
>>
>>285223
That Italy has good soldiers but shit people in power.
>>
>>285223
germans got all the glory in WW2 when their auxiliaries fought with bravery and got no credit
>>
>>283364
God Bless the Onion
>>
>>285223

Modern warfare is 90% logistics. Italy 10% good. 90% shit.
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>>285408
Italy in a nutshell
>>
>>285435
>let's blame the politician to cleanse our conscience and let's keep not giving a fuck about anything else

Italy in a nutshell.
>>
>>285223
The Italians were fine soldiers

Their officers however were beyond shit. It doesn't matter if you have an army of good soldiers when all their officers are absolutely worthless.
>>
>>283141
The US was literally created by war.

Italy was created by the wars of unification.

Rome kicked the shit out of every neighboring tribe it could find and spread its culture 2000 years in the future.

War is everything.
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>>283826
>>
>>283191
>>283203
>>283680

Actually, anon is right. Italian teens and young adults are fucking trash. Whenever they get rejected by a girl they go on insulting her mother, her aunt, her entire female lineage. Just because they're so fucking insecure about themselves. Geez.

Italians are the worst. Except for their cinema.
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>>285534
why are you making shit up?
I can tell you are mad at Italy and Italians.
>>
>>285534
>Italians all act the same because I say so and I'm so mad at them I hate them so much :(

If you say so.
>>
hate to say this but air raids where invented by Italians during the Lybian war of 1911. they threw iprite gas bombs from airplanes.
>>
>>285445
perfect.
"Italiani brava gente", meaning "Italian good people" is a book from italian historian Angelo Del Boca about italian atrocities from the birth of the state to WWII. For decades the horrors and ethnic cleansing done by "good pizza mamma pasta" italian soldiers were not being discussed in public.
>>
>>284554
eeh, sorry you have poor reading comprehension, anon
>>
>>285534
Food's pretty good too
>>
Genuine American here. We like Italy because of the food and The Godfather, and because they're generally friendly immigrants inside the US and to American tourists in their home country. For this we forgive them for being the biggest and most consistent military and political laughingstock since the end of the Renaissance. France meanwhile has the stigma of not only of complete military blunder despite overwhelming superiority, not only of being active collaborators with one of the most despicable regimes in human history, but above all, for being snide, haughty, holier-than-thou assholes both to tourists, and as tourists, and conveniently gloss over the fact that their asses have been saved by foreigners more times than they can count. In reality this really only applies to Parisians, who understandably are mistaken by Americans for the whole of France, when the average rustic Frenchman or woman is generally quite affable and historically informed.
>>
Cmon italians dont know shit about war,conquer etc but they are funny,creative and overall artistico.
We cannot blame Italy for all the military failures ....it's not their cup of thee period.
>>
>>285834
It seems like a common phenomenon in every country that people from the capital city are fucking assholes and make the entire place look bad.
>>
>>284059

I do hate you americlaps.
Fuck you. Russia is a better ally than you, we should have gave them our Mistrals, if only Hollande could stop being Obongo and Merkel's lapdog.
>>
>>285913
That's patently untrue, it really only applies to France, all the other countries (that aren't failed states) have mostly decent capitals, or at least not TOO bad, but Parisians are by far the most odious urbanites in the world.
>>
>>285834
You're pretty pathetic to be fair

>complete military blunder despite overwhelming superiority
Forces were about equal during the Battle of France

>being active collaborators with one of the most despicable regimes in human history
Defeated countries collaborate
Germany for exemple collaborated with France under Napoleon and with USA/USSR after WW2

As a Mexican living in the US, I never understood why you guys seem to hate the French so much
I mean, your country literally exists because of them, yet you will go as far as being revisionist just to make them look bad ("never won a war", "lost WW1", "caused Vietnam War" or like in your post "had superior forces to Germany in 1940")
I could understand such hatred from their historical rivals (UK, Germany, Spain), but from a country they basically saved from abortion? Wtf
>>
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>>286146
relative to their rural populace that is, see image

not pictured: parisians
>>
>>285762
Italy was also the first country to use armored cars in an actual war.
>>
>>285834
>For this we forgive them
>haughty, holier-than-thou assholes
>>
>>286149
>Defeated countries collaborate
Not during WW2. France was rather unique in collaborating as much as they did with the Germans. The Danes were literally given Home Rule by Hitler because he loved how Aryan-pure they were, but even they still resisted.
>>
>>286149
>Forces were about equal during the Battle of France
France had better planes, better tanks, better small arms, better artillery, better soldiers, and more of all of these things than the Germans, PLUS the much ballyhooed Maginot line, and STILL lost because the generals were utter incompetents who practically colluded with Germany, and later did, read: Phillippe Petain.

>Defeated countries collaborate
>Germany for exemple collaborated with France under Napoleon and with USA/USSR after WW2
No nation but France facilitated the Holocaust knowing full well what was going to happen to the Jews they deported, read: Pierre Laval.

>I mean, your country literally exists because of them
So? There is no historical revisionism going on here. Every American knows about French military assistance during the Revolution; the most popular name for a place or edifice after Washington and Jefferson is Lafayette. That doesn't excuse their future evils any more than Jefferson's failed attempt to abolish slavery in the Declaration made Jim Crow ok.

>>286172
You're gonna call that hypocrisy in a thread about Italy bashing?
>>
>>283643
That's not how nuclear reactors work, anon.
>>
>>283821
>your country

I'm American, and my ancestry is Irish. I just have an interest in Italian history, though I admit my particular area of focus is Fascist Italy more so than before or after.

>>283834
A won war is a won war.

>>286209
Gonna agree with this. Mussolini was allied with Germany from the start but faffed about concerning the Jewish thing. Sure, Mussolini issued the Manifesto of Race and sent off a few token Jews to keep Hitler happy, but overall Italy was a safe haven for Jews. Particularly the parts of France under Italian control.

Whereas Vichy France basically handed their Jews over on a silver platter with some cooking recommendations and garlic butter.
>>
>>283285
>Venice
How... the fuck... they won with the French...
>>
>>286209
>better planes
>better tanks
>better soldiers

What the hell...? Germany was better in every regard while France let everything slide.
>>
>>283285
>Scotland
Who invited them
>>
>>283048
It's more fun to make fun of the French because they're so fucking full of themselves. Italians don't go around telling people their irrelevant country's the font of Western culture *even though in their case it's true* and refusing to learn English.

France is that kid in your class who had shitty grades but was a huge snob about his supposed intelligence anyway. Italy's just that cheerful laid-back dago who doesn't give a shit that his grades are bad.
>>
>>283298
Austria Hungary was a great nation, not as capable on the battlefield as Germany, but still a wonderful place that could have been even more wonderful if shitstain butt boys didn't ruin in.
>>
>>287606
The English are even more full of themselves. Same goes for Americans.

The French were a great power that got the short end of the stick. They still have my respect, and they have every right to be proud.
>>
>>286834
>Whereas Vichy France basically handed their Jews over on a silver platter with some cooking recommendations and garlic butter.
top hurr

French Jews were protected by Vichy and were NOT deported. Only immigrant Jews were. This is why France had the lowest Jewish death rate of any occupied country but Denmark.
>>
>>286209
France didn't even have any motorised infantry you idiot.

And yes I'm sure that while even Germans didn't know about the Holocaust, the entire nation of France somehow did you massive faggot.
>>
>>287581
Going by just that image I assume it's
>France is on one side
>England doesn't like France so it joins the opposite
>Scotland doesn't like England so it joins France
>>
>>287641
>If I talk about France in the third person nobody will notice I'm a giant frog in a beret
>>
>>287606
Italians speak worse English than the French, and are typically far more arrogant about their culture. Same applies to many other countries.

But there's only one country whose "arrogance" and "poor English skills" Anglos are literally obsessed by, and that's France. I wonder why...
>>
>>287693
And if that rhetorical question was too subtle for you, it's because Anglos have a historical inferiority complex towards France, and because France is the only Western country that hasn't submitted to American rule.
>>
>>287708
Instead they go crawling to the Russians
>>
>>287750
Literally what?

Why do some people have so much trouble grasping the concept of national sovereignty? Are you an American trying to shame everyone into obeying America, or are you from a US satellite state trying to convince yourself that being another country's vassal is the only way?
>>
>Why is it so popular to make fun of the French as being bad at war when these clowns exist?

- The US has no motivation to make fun of Italy, which is politically irrelevant and obeys American orders, while France is targeted for its independence from US policy.

- This is facilitated by a long history of francophobia inherited from English culture.

- There is a sizable and organized Italian-American community that immediately lashes back at any negative portrayal of Italy with boycotts, protests, and other whining. France is one of the few countries that has no such lobby defending it in America and is thus safe to mock.
>>
>>287693
Not even an Anglo (Norwegian), just not blind.
>>
>>287833
kek, Norwegians are the most Americanised people on Earth, I don't think you even speak your own language anymore.
>>
>>283222
>Italy was always the subject of jokes about shitty military and known for it everywhere in Europe. Americans are the ones who replaced Italy with France and then forced it as a meme.
trips confirms
>>
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>>283230
>There are quantitative studies about values by region, such as the World Value Survey. Globally, Italy may not look very traditional but any meaningful comparison should be among European countries.
>>
>>287864
go back to /int/
>>
>>283702
I came here to say this and I'm also Venetian
Do I see a pattern
>>
>>287980
>Venetians are proud
>pattern

not really it's just something you do at the cost of our balls not always being intact.
>>
>>287864
>Autism refineries
kek
>>
>Be Italy in reuinification
>Get Venice
>Be Italy in ww1
>Get Austrian land

They may be terrible at war but they at least get something out of it.
>>
>>283203
Look, even from just the italian immigrant heritage we know you guys are tryhard machos who like to talk and only sometimes can back it.
t. Colonial
>>
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>>285834
you illustrate well that america is about entertainment for the middle class which naturally leads the americans to claim that they have a culture, since they cannot show any culture.
>>
>>283520
Spero tu non sia italiano, perchè se lo sei e sei così stupido, siamo davvero nella merda.
>>
>>288030

That's because they kept piggybacking greater powers.

They sold of Savoie and Nice in order to get French help in obtaining Lombardy from Austria.

Then they declared war on Austria while it was involved in the Austro-Prussian war in order to obtain Venice.

When they first fough Austria on their own they got crushed.

Even in the First World War did they only join the fight when it looked like the CP was on its way to defeat. They didn't care about any treaties and demanded parts of Austria-Hungary in a bid to stay Neutral - not even joining the fight!

And yet, in spite that all. Italy is pretty cool
>>
>>288078
>even from just the italian immigrant heritage

congratulations you just set the record for opinion trashed in the shortest time span, 0.00001 milliseconds
>>
>>285834
>vichy collaborated with dem ebuul jerrys
>Benny was a good boy he dindu nuthin
>Italian social republic sure as hell didn't
It's not even funny anymore Luigi.
>>
>>287864
this is true. northern italy have the income of germany while southern italy is economically worse than greece. source: Svimez 2015 survey
>>
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>During the Second Italo-Ethiopian War some of the main targets for Italian gas attacks in Ethiopia were hospitals, schools and churches
>most of them weren't even Ethiopian-run, the Italians were gassing other Europeans
>when the Swedes and British tried to make this public the Italians went full "WE WUZ GOOD BOYZ WE DINDU NUFFIN THEY MIGHT HAVE CUT AN ITALIAN PRISONER'S EAR OFF ONCE"
>despite having more tanks, planes and committing war crimes and massacres at every opportunity the Italians still barely won and couldn't even maintain control of the country apart from Addis Ababa itself
Is there anything worse than Italian "people"?
>>
>>288685
The Red Cross hospitals and schools were helping the niggers. The Red Cross was, by extension, Italy's enemy. Give me one good reason they shouldn't have been gassed.
>>
>>283783
And now it is a tourist trap and a city built on the terms of ruins, with the last real Venetians having left the city in the 60s.
>>
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>>288660
plus babies
>>
>>284053
The Italian front has always sounded even shittier than the Western front to me.
>>
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>>283316

I know that the Italians were waaaay under-equipped to fight Ethiopians let alone France, but what. the. fuck.
>>
>>288685
I'm italian and I totaly confirm. The atrocities made by fascists (ande before 1922 by italian soldiers) are not acknowledged by the general public.
example: the massacre of Debra Libanòs where Italians killed more than 300 innocent monks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debre_Libanos
>>
>>283285
What a clusterfuck. At least Duchy of Ferrara seems to be a good ally.

>venice in charge of war
>>
>>288757
>Following the attempted assassination on his life on 19 February 1937, governor Rodolfo Graziani believed the monastery's monks and novices were involved in this attack, and unwilling to wait for the results of the official investigation, ordered Italian colonialists to massacre the inhabitants of this monastery. On 21 May of that year, 297 monks and 23 laymen were killed.
What the fuck, Italy
>>
>>288767
fascists were beasts. they literally had fun in killings
>>
>>288729
Fighting Austrians in mountains always sounded like a retarded plan. It still embarrassing that the entire national war effort of Italy couldn't decisively defeat an Austria that was already bled white on its eastern front and holding a front in the Balkans. The Italian army was literally that inept.
>>
>>286209
>You're gonna call that hypocrisy in a thread about Italy bashing?
Yes, that was what I was implying, thanks for noticing.
>>
>>285534
>lemme tell you about your country!
>>
>>283048
Italy is actually a bad country, and it's literally because of the south. It's not racism or anything, it's just the hugest meme in history. Name a problem in italy, you'll see it's from the south, or south related. Everything, literally, from the unification until today that went wrong with us is south's fault.
Surely north is flawed like everything human, but the amount of human failure the south conveys is ridiculously embarassing. And I'm not even from the north.
>>
>>288767
Now you understand how we feel when people say that fascism wasn't that all that bad and all the bad stuff is just leftist propaganda.
Fuck there's literally a thread which is basically a fascist apology thread here on /his/ where people who didn't even study history from the time tell us Italians that we're wrong.

Fascists were nothing more than legalized criminals.
>>
>>285534
Oh be careful with all these edges mate
>>
>>287637
Fuck nationalism and the Entente for ruining a great nation. We could have been powerful. We could have been something. Now we're just a bunch of irrelevant nations with varying degrees of shittiness.
>>
>>284062
>what is Somme (Britain and France played equal parts)
>what is Verdun
Are you serious or just trolling?
>>
>>288757
top kek
>>
>>288875
Translation: pls stop memeing about Italy it's all their fault I'm actually one of the "good" Italians :(

Pathetic attempt
>>
>>288930
The two most decisive battles of the war were actually the first and second battles of the Marne (both of which were overwhelmingly French on the Entente side).

Verdun of course was important by its sheer size and damage.
>>
why do you guys have to be so mean
>>
>>288227
Funny. Its almost like they made strategic choices knowing their place in the world to maximize the greatest outcome. Who would have thought???
>>
>>285414
The founder's name is literally Tim Keck
>>
>>290748
literally
>>
>>283048

Because people actually had expectations of the French, unlike the Italians
>>
>>288021
They're two different provinces:
>province of Venice
On the other side of Venice, in the city of Marghera, there is a very big oil refinery (we have sirens around the city in case the petrochemical plant blows up, so we know we have to start wearing gas masks, true story).
>province of Treviso
It's a very rich province whose population is your average /pol/-tard, hence the autism.
>>
ITALY IS GREAT AND THE POPE SHALL LEAD US TO DIVINE VICTORY

P-PAX ROMANA
>>
>>283320
Italian anon here.
my compatriots on /pol/ (and thereby on his I suppose) are a bunch of fourteen years old wannabe nationalist which only feature is the abysmal ignorance. You are never going to have a good discussion with them.

>>283364
historiography may remember it as a venetian and french victory, but Venice got BTFO so hard that from the most powerful and expanding state in Italy turned into a regional power, constantly declining and struggling to mantain indipendence from austria.

>>283420
not entirely true - italian cities fought and beat the roman holy empire twice during the middle ages. Their weakness was that no cities had a large regular army and relied on mercenary troops; while on the 11th century that was acceptable, at the end of the hundred years was it was basically a direct request for france and spain to invade, which in fact happened,

oh and btw italians were way more indipendent than france on what concerns the middle east area until recent. I don't know where you get that from mates
>>
What is it about Italy that rustles people so much? I see a constant need to shit on them despite the fact that they never do anything to draw such ire.
>>
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>>290955
Same happens on /pol/.
You do the math.
>>
>>290955
They hate us cos they anus
>>
Il Gattopardo is a great film and reading about Garibaldi is crazy. Comparing Garibaldi's achievements with the Arab spring you see how great he was.

When did the Italian nation stop being one of progress and rational governance to be a corrupt sluggard?
>>
>>291047
>When did the Italian nation stop being one of progress and rational governance to be a corrupt sluggard?
When the Church happened.
Why do you think Italy was the only "nation" that didn't develop a strong bourgeoisie like any other nation in Europe?
If you read about Garibaldi you should have understood very well what the big problem was.
Did you read his will?
It tells a lot really.

https://it.wikisource.org/wiki/Testamento_politico_di_Giuseppe_Garibaldi

Even with all the myths surrounding him, Garibaldi was a man who had a clear idea and insight of the society of his time, he might have been a mercenary but he valued freedom and loved mankind earnestly.
He was probably the last true heroic figure of the modern age.
>>
>>291047
Il gattopardo is only marginally about Garibaldi tho. It's a wonderful story about Sicily and its people.
>>
>>291138
wow, he sure was based as fuck
>>
>>283048
Picking Italy is like picking on a retarded kid
It feels wrong

Picking on France is like picking on the kid who can do better but chooses to be a lazy underachieving sack of shit who rolls over at the first flash of a swastika who held out against Nazi Germany for 30 something days when POLAND HELD OFF FOR 35 DAYS AGINST THE SOVIET UNION AND NAZI GERMANY AT THE SAME TIME

ITALY NEVER BACK OUT OF NATO BECAUSE OF HURT FEELINGS

POLAND NEVER REFUSED TO BACK THE US IN A CONFLICT AGAINST THE WESTERN WORLD

FUCKING CHEESE EATING SURENDER MONKIES

GET FUCKED WITH A RAKE
>>
>>291192
wow anon whats with all the rage
>>
sure is American hour in here
>>
>>291168
He was pretty damn based, yeah.

He's probably the only historical figure from my country who I truly admire for his ideals, even putting aside all the adventurous stuff and other stories, his life is very interesting too and he also wrote an autobiography, though of course you should always read that kind of things with a grain of salt.
>>
>>291192
kek
lay off the freedom fries, faggot
>>
>>291138
>https://it.wikisource.org/wiki/Testamento_politico_di_Giuseppe_Garibaldi
Hey, lets appoint a dictator and just hope he is non-corrupt and doesn't abuse his absolute power.
Garibaldi was a great politician too it seems.
>>
>>291355
Cheeypicking parts of texts doesn't make you right Anon, you only look like an idiot.
>>>/pol/
>>
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>>291138
>Potendolo, e padrona di sé stessa, l’Italia deve proclamarsi repubblicana, ma non affidare la sua sorte a cinquecento dottori, che dopo averla assodata con ciarle, la condurranno a rovina. Invece scegliere il più onesto degli italiani e nominarlo dittatore temporaneo
Rest in peace sweet prince
>>
>>291192
France held for 1 months and 15 days
Poland held for 1 months and 5 days
Not claiming that's not still fucking pathetic, but get your fact right
No need to make up lies to make the shamed party look even worse, it would be like claiming that Americans outnumbered the Viets...
>>
>>291421
OH EXCUSE ME

FUCKING FRANCE HELD OFF FOR AN EXTRA 10 DAYS AGINST ONE SUPERPOWER

STOP THE FUCKING PRESSES

FUCKING PATHETIC

POLAND HELD OFF AGAINST TWO SUPERPOWERS FROM TWO FRONTS

FRANCE HAD ONE AND ONLY MADE IT AN EXTRA 10 DAYS

SHIT EXCUSE FOR A MILITARY
SHIT EXCUSE FOR A COUNTRY

HEAVEN FORBID THEY DEFEND THEMSELVES

OP ASKS WHY EVERY ONE HATES FRANCE

WELL HERE'S WHY

CHEESE
EATING
SURRENDER
MONKEYS

GET FUCKED BY THE GERMANS 3 TIMES IN 100 YEARS
>>
>>291421
Also who made that mess America tried to clean up in Vietnam?

Remind me again........
>>
I would have gone with any of the other hundred countries that didn't do anything of note.
>>
>>291401
Reading those last words and thinking about the sort of leaders Italy's had lately make the country's history feel like a deeply ironic Greek tragedy.
>>
>>291510
Yet another dumb myth Amerifzts believe in...
France left Vietnam in 1954, America arrived in 1955.
The two wars had nothing to do with each others
France's war was a colonial war, America's was a dumb anti-commie crusade
>>
Since all the /pol/ fascist are running rampant as usual let's be perfectly clear on this.

>Potendolo, e padrona di sé stessa, l’Italia deve proclamarsi repubblicana, ma non affidare la sua sorte a cinquecento dottori, che dopo averla assodata con ciarle, la condurranno a rovina. Invece scegliere il più onesto degli italiani e nominarlo dittatore temporaneo, e con lo stesso potere che avevano i Fabi ed i Cincinnati. Il sistema dittatoriale durerà sinché la nazione italiana sia più educata a libertà, e che la sua esistenza non sia più minacciata dai potenti vicini. Allora la dittatura cederà il posto a regolare governo repubblicano.

Being able, and master of herself , Italy must declare herself republican, but should not entrust her fate to 500 ministers whom after having dulled her with chatter, will bring her to ruin, instead she(the people) should choose the most honest of italians and nominate him temporary dictator, and with the same power that the Fabii and Cincinnati(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucius_Quinctius_Cincinnatus, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabius_Maximus) had. The dictatorial system will last until the nation will be more educated about Freedom, and her existence not threatened by her powerful neighbours anymore. Then, the Dictatorship will leave place to the Republic.

The dictator he talks about was meant as the hystorical figure of a dictator rei gerendae causa, which was a measure regarding cases of extreme national instability due to invasions, it was in no way meant as the fascist dictature's dictator which is the Dictator Perpetuo, it's a radically different figure which should in no way be confused, and also doesn't infringe the right of the people to rebel against him, should the need arise.
>>
>>291138
Translation faggots
>>
>>291138
>last hero of the modern age

totally agree. Alexandre Dumas said that if he had lived in ancient times, he would have been a mythic figure or a prophet or even more.
you are particulary right when you said that he had a clear idea. he wasn't like Mazzini, who developed a byzantine scheme of thinking, very intellectual and stuff. he had like three or four basic principles, all he needed to act politically:
-republic
-freedom
-equality.
he freed slaves when he was in south america. he fought along former slave negroes and indigenous battalions. he loved united states but he despised slavery, and that's why he refused to take part to American wars, even when they begged him to lead their soldiers
>>
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>>291566
>The two wars had nothing to do with each others

>euros make a mess
>oppress foreign peoples
>allow communism to fester
>pull out like faggots throwing up your hands and walking away
>massive communist rebellion because you can't even bother to stabilize the countries you abandon
>we step in to try to stop the most brutal and evil ideology ever to exist from taking over the country you walked away from
>>
>>291584
Can you wait a few minutes?
I'll post a pastebin with the translation as soon as I'm done.
>>
>>283048
The fact that it can pertrube you this hard probably speaks against your claim.

I notice the exact same phenomena with France. People from the english speaking world try so hard to shit on it that it must continually occupy their minds.
>>
>>291590
More like

>Colonies rebel
>Euros try to fight but are two weak after WW2
>Colony wins its freedom
>Suddenly, America invades because they dislike their political regime
>>
>>283048
italy produced this, they can't be that bad

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLbEZU7YB-w
>>
>>288685
Your butthurt.
>>
>>291608
>Trying to keep down the most oppressive brutal bloody and horrid political ideology, communism, the world has ever seen is merely trying to invade because we dislike a political regime
Only a European could be so delusional and arrogant
>>
>>290955
Sign of a truly great culture. People want to convince themselves and others that their disdain for a nation stems from its supposed faults, but it's always obvious that it's an inferiority complex.
>>
>>285480
Army of lions led by sheep eh?
>>
>>288875
>btw I'm a history expert
>>
>>285834
>Saved by foreigners
France has been fighting off multiple enemies at once for hundreds of years and they get occupied once by the damned nazis and americans think it's always been like that.
It's probably because the damned american education act like nothing before 1776 mattered.
>>
>>287606
Italians and French know they're the font of western culture, it's just that some people can't accept the fact, hence the need to remind them.
>>
>>291730
>he typed in English on an American image board
KEK

I bet you wear a T-shirt and blue jeans at least once a week
>>
>>291730
>french
>font of anything but faggotry
>italians
>font of anything but crime
>>
>>291743
>he said on a jap site format administered by a jap
>>
>>291743
>>291762
>it's just that some people can't accept the fact
>For example these two.
>>
>>283821
>as soon as it was time for charging and the Spaniards yelled "a la bayoneta! a la bayoneta!" the Italians would go "a la camioneta! a la camioneta!"
topkek
>>
>>283821
You and your grandfather aren't convincing anyone.
>>
>>291743
You win the award for most irrelevant content in a post, congratulations.
>>
Translation done, I hope I've been as clear and true to the original text as possible

http://pastebin.com/vVHDD81x
>>
>>291882
In the first paragraph there should be last moments and not as moments
>>
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Shiiiiiet.jpg
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>>291912
>In the first paragraph there should be last moments and not as moments

Shit, sorry about that, it's almost 1:00 AM and I'm getting sleepy.
Guess I'll actually go to bed, I can't afford being too dead tomorrow.
>>
>>291882
>all that is true instead of just truth
>the lie and the tiranny
sounds too weird in english
>in the as moments

>exhausted state of the dying and the confusion in which he often lies
I'd use "they often lie", the dying is describing the people
Skipped the "stato spossato" part and didn't say it brings to confusion , and why did you use often? There's nothing similar to often there.

Can't be bothered to go on desu
>>
>>283566
Is there a single irish author is actually irish and not anglo irish apart from james joyce?
>>
>>292179
Most "Anglo-Irish" authors identified themselves with Ireland, you'd be very hard pressed to find any who didn't. The "Anglo-Irish" designation is mostly a historical thing.

But, if you must be a pedant, then Seathrún Céitinn, Brian Mac Giolla Meidhre, Seamus Heaney, Frank McCourt, Colm Tobín, Peig Sayers, Antoine Ó Raifteirí, Oscar Wilde, Ciarán Carson and Roddy Doyle are all more strictly Irish
>>
>>288878
sooooo what's wrong with personal vengeance? fascist did pretty good on lots of things, they just enjoyed killing niggers and peasant rompipalle
>>
>>283837
pls dont shitpost the venetian
>>
ITT : spot the retarded american

protip : he's the one with childish views of the world and repeats simplistic analysis he heard here and there
Thread posts: 253
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