If the Iliad is about Greek victory over the Trojans and the

>>2590540
>If the Iliad is about Greek victory over the Trojans and the supposed "hero" is Achilles,

It isn't you retard. It's literally in the first fucking line what the Iliad is about; the conflict between Achilles and Agammemnon. The war is just a backdrop.

>He did literally nothing wrong moral-wise and was absolutely based.

That's also wrong. He's quite literally portrayed as a coward, needing a God to trick him to stand and fight and die like his fate demands.

> He only defeated Hector because of divine intervention.

If you haven't noted that Hector doesn't stand a chance, you haven't been reading very closely. The guy couldn't beat Ajax or Diomedes, and they're a lot weaker than Achilles.

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Because a "hero" in greek meant something different then what it means today. The greek hero is a powerful, often semi-divine, doer of deeds. In any major conflict, both sides would have heroes. The moral character of the hero was based on things like martial prowess, and sometimes piety or loyalty. Whether he was self-controlled or compassionate [in short, whether he was Christian] was irrelevant to his status as a hero.

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>>2590540
It's like different people at different times have different values or something.

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>spent the entire book rooting for hector
>got sad as shit when he died
>had to stop reading for a couple of minutes

>>2590557
Hector was not a coward. He was brave and loyal to his people. He did indeed flee from Achilles; who wouldn't? Achilles was maxed out in stats that it'd be impossible to even inflict a scratch. Hector finally stopped ruining from his fears and met his death head-on like a real man despite the cards stacked against him.

Besides everyone knows that Diomedes of Argos was the true badass of the Iliad. Wounded 2 gods, Apollo could only flash-blind him, and Athena openly favored him.

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>>2590557

wow are you really still butthurt about the whole Patroclus thing? It's not my fault you were too much of a little bitch to save him in time.

>>2590570

>Odysseus
>gallant

he was a coward, I mean he used a bow for fucks sake

>>2590605

>Hector was not a coward. He was brave and loyal to his people. He did indeed flee from Achilles; who wouldn't?

Aeneas, Iphition, Demoleon, Hippodamas, Dryops, Asteropaeus, probably others.

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>>2590592

>He stretched his arms towards his child, but the boy cried and nestled in his nurse's bosom, scared at the sight of his father's armour, and at the horse-hair plume that nodded fiercely from his helmet. His father and mother laughed to see him, but Hector took the helmet from his head and laid it all gleaming upon the ground. Then he took his darling child, kissed him, and dandled him in his arms, praying over him the while to Jove and to all the gods. "Jove," he cried, "grant that this my child may be even as myself, chief among the Trojans; let him be not less excellent in strength, and let him rule Ilius with his might. Then may one say of him as he comes from battle, 'The son is far better than the father.' May he bring back the blood-stained spoils of him whom he has laid low, and let his mother's heart be glad.'"

>>2590557
How is Hector supposed to beat them? Every other dude is a demigod. He's merely a mortal. He did his duty as a son and a prince, and died for an ungrateful brother.

>>2590646
Oh come on, you're just being facitious. I can easily make the argument that Achilles is a punk bitch for sulking in his tent for most of the story.

Fact of the matter is Homer and the Greeks thought quite highly of the Trojan prince, the tamer of horses. Achilles was an edgy demigod; ferocious in battle and certainly a legend but it doesn't diminish Hector's status as a warrior and man. His only real flaw was covering his bitch-boy brother, but blood is thicker than water. Without Hector, the Trojans would have lost long ago. He fought every engagement and rallied to the defense of his people; qualities that are universally respected in any culture.

>>2590540
>Why did Homer make Hector so much more heroic than an actual Greek figure?

HOMEROS DID NOT "MAKE HIM" LIKE THAT; HE MERELY TOLD A STORY REGARDING ACTUAL EVENTS, AND ACTUAL INDIVIDUALS.

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>>2590659
>TFW Reading how his son's head was bashed against the walls of Troy in "The Trojan Women"
>TFW Reading the part where Hector returns home, and recieves the prophetic vision of his kingdom inevitably losing, yet he keeps fighting

It's a testament to the work that after 2000 years it still manages to affect even cynical asses like me

>>2590672

>Oh come on, you're just being facitious. I can easily make the argument that Achilles is a punk bitch for sulking in his tent for most of the story.

I am, but I'm covering a serious point in humor. If you think that the Iliad is about the war between the Achaeans and the Trojans and it comes down to the Big Fight between Hektor and Achilles, you have quite literally missed the point, and should be slapped with a rolled up copy of the work until you get it.

The Iliad is about the quarrel between Achilles, the leader by talent, and Agammemnon, the leader by right of birth. And ultimately, Achilles loses that quarrel, but manages to swallow his pride, a pretty unique feat for Greek heroes (See, the entire Odyssey) and rises to something approaching a moral heroship in the modern sense of the word. Because he CAN beat Agammemnon in the javelin toss, but chooses not to compete for that kind of fleeting, meaningless glory. He CAN call out against the foul in the chariot race, but really, what will that accomplish? And most of all, he can take pity on poor, broken Priam, who utters just about the worst possible plea that he could possibly think of to someone like Achilles, who knows damn well he is going to die in a foreign land and his father indeed won't have a body to bury, and that the two of them have counted that cost and paid it already. By all 'rights', Achilles should have laughed in his face and speared him right beside his son, and the Achilles of the beginning of the epic almost certainly would have done so.

None of this, of course touches upon Hektor directly. And yes, he is admirable. But he's admirable precisely because he's removed from the crux of the real drama, the innocent man who gets caught up in things much too big for him. But if you're sitting around comparing which hero is the bigger badass, you're fundamentally misunderstanding the Iliad as a work.

>>2590700
I'm well aware of all those points you've made. I thought you were trolling earlier by bashing on Hector. I don't give a fuck about whose the greater hero either and understand the cosmic drama between the gods and men in this story. And how fate was inevitable and what progresion you make throughout the course of the war.

>>2590540
That's one of the reasons why the Iliad is one of the greatest works of literature ever created. It does not take sides, nor does it set up perfect characters who are beyond flaw. All the humans in the story are recognizably human and flawed, just some have superhuman fighting skills. They are biased, they get scared, they get angry at stupid shit. The war is presented as being horrible and pointless, not heroic or glamorous. The narrative's brutal refusal to glamorize war and warriors is almost beyond even that of modern-day works.

P.S. Fagles translation for the win.

Did you even read the Iliad? Neither side is really portrayed as "bad guys" or "good guys"

>>2590605
>>2590557
Wasn't it Hector's decision to stay at camp rather than retreat back to the city? After a god messed with his wits of course

>>2590971
>It does not take sides, nor does it set up perfect characters who are beyond flaw.

This works with the Gods too, most of them are pretty human even if they are immortal.

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Reminder that Turks are descendants of Troy

>>2591015

Basically, it goes

>Achilles takes to the field, leads the Achaeans to rout the entire Trojan army
>Hektor tries to stop the rout, but does so by taking the rear-guard (and getting a bit of help from Apollo), is outside the walls when everyone else withdraws.
>Decides to face Achilles
>However, at the moment of cusp, when Achilles is charging towards him, his nerve breaks, and he runs around the city several times.
>Athena appears to him as one of his buddies, blanking on which, and suggests they take Achilles together.
>Hektor agrees, but the trickster goddess vanishes when it's too alte to run
>Achilles mops the floor with Hektor.

>>2591021
True that

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I love how Zeus basically just trolled everyone during the Trojan War. Dude didn't really give a shit and just threw lightning bolts at both sides for shits n giggles and only acted like he cared when the goddesses were being a real headache and nagging him about it.

>>2591042
Just as petty and murderous as the Old Testament god, but without having ever been whitewashed by later religious traditions that tried to make him into a humanist.

>>2590672
Not directly relevant but the full quote is " blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb".

Basically blood is thicker than water originally meant the opposite of what it is typically used as today.

>>2591045

and Zeus got to bang goddesses all the time.

OT God only got thousands of years of having to babysit the Israelites. At least He got a good laugh out of fucking with Abraham.

>>2591060
Nah, I've got no interest in crafting b8. It just interests me how many modern followers of the Abrahamic traditions like to project a humanist God onto original texts that don't really support such a reading very easily.

>>2591059
True. The OT's depiction of God as lacking any interest in sexuality except for the purposes of human reproduction is a rather fundamental difference from the Greek myths. The OT God is a sort of proto-eugenicist who is interested in crafting the history of particular bloodlines, but has no or almost no interest in sexuality for its own sake.

>>2590557
>the iliad only has one thematic
end yourself

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>>2590592
>And thus they buried Hector breaker of horses

>>2591042
Yeah, Zeus is a dick in general. When he's not throwing bolts of lighting or fucking Ganymede's boypussy he's turning into a swan and impregnating bitches. He was also the God of Law.

>>2590540
The hero is not only Achilles, the heroes are all the strong good looking guys like Achilles and Hector too, not the Greek ones.

Itisn't a patriotic poem at all, there was no Greek nation in the early iron age when this was written down, there's some speculation about a unified Greek kingdom (Danaju/Ahhywanaland) in the late bronze age, because Egyptians and Hittities refer to the Greeks as if they were aprt ofone kingdom, but that's still speculation and a large kingdom still isn't a nation.

Surely in the EIA when this was written down there were just warring city states that had just either formed or re-flourished after the BA collpase, so whoever wrote this shit down didn't think as Achilles as a heroe because of his Greek heritage or as Hector as a villain because ofhis Trojan ethnicity

>>2591037
If only we had more sultans like Mehmed than Ataturk wouldn't be needed.

>>2590618
Didn't Odysseus leave his bow back home?

>>2590971
>Fight for your country, that is the best, and only omen.
got a wee boner with that one.

>>2590671
The Trojans had a ton of demigods too, including Aeneas, Memnon and Sarpedon who was the son of fucking Zeus.

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>While the Greeks admired [Odysseus's] cunning and deceit, these qualities did not recommend themselves to the Romans, who possessed a rigid sense of honour.
>His attempts to avoid his sacred oath to defend Menelaus and Helen offended Roman notions of duty; the many stratagems and tricks that he employed to get his way offended Roman notions of honour.
Why were Romans so fucking lame? No appretiation for interesting character personalities whatsoever. It's no wonder they didn't have even remotely exciting literature for centuries.

>>2591997

thoughts on the Aeneid then?

>>2590540
the point of Achilles is that he represents the ideal of the soldier taken to its extreme

He KNOWS that if he goes to Troy he will die, but he will get eternal glory for it so he goes instead of being a coward and being able to live.

>>2590680
a couple years ago I remember seeing a post here where someone talked about how in a classical literature class at uni he read Trojan Women and a few gender studies students were arguing that it was about Euripides calling for a sexual revolution in Athens, and the teacher called them retarded.

>>2590570
>16 feet long spear
>hoplite
What?

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>that Greek boxer who was worshiped as a Hero after he killed a bunch of kids and hid in a box

>>2592562
Derivative and hackey. The Force Awakens of the classical world.

>>2592562
He took all the conventions of epic myth and somehow found a way to make it boring.

>>2590672
>Fact of the matter is Homer and the Greeks thought quite highly of the Trojan prince, the tamer of horses.

Alexander the Great wants a fucking word with you.

Literally, Alexander idolised Achilles, and his idolisation was encouraged by everyone around him including Aristotle.

The Greeks viewed the Iliad very differently than we, in a post Christian/Superhero world to.

Hektor may be tragic, but Achilles was the fucking hero!

>>2592607
Hero cults were everywhere in hellenic world. Dozens upon dozens of people are known to have hero cults. Hadrian or Trajan started a cult for his drowned boy toy.

>>2592610
>>2592646

so what are some essential Roman works to read? I havent read the Aeneid but at face value it looks like just a greekaboo fanfic.

>Implying heroes are 'good' or 'bad' guys
>Implying anyone thinks Agamemnon is a good guy

>>2593395
Roman culture is Greek culture after a certain point, there's no such thing as a Roman Greekaboo, only Roman colonial overlords of Greeks.

>>2592843
What's really interesting to me is that during the Iliad the other greeks are looking down at Odysseus. While the other heroes are on the front lines fighting man to man Odysseus is kind of sneaking around the battlefield backstabbing people going "hehehe i got one" after slitting someone's throat. The other greek heroes are kind of looking him like why did this guy have to be on our side.

But then in the Odyssey he's the hero.

>>2593432
Orestes maybe

>>2593471
>What's really interesting to me is that during the Iliad the other greeks are looking down at Odysseus.


Wut? No they aren't. Go re-read Book 10, about half of it is sucking Odysseus's dick.

>>2590540
Achilleus is the protagonist, not the hero. Hektor is not portrayed as the undeniable good guy, but he is a good guy. The struggle between two fundamentally human guys is one of the major themes of the poem.

You have to get rid of this image you have of the Iliad as a Good Guys vs. Bad Guys Greek propaganda piece. They're both bad, and both good. There's a reason the "victorious" Greeks all suffer horrible fates when they get home. The whole thing is a tragedy.

>>2593488
Yeah, Orestes, totally capable of being objective w/r/t his father, considering everything

>>2591045
OT God is a schizophrenic mastermind of infinite wrath and infinite caprice.

Zeus is just some lazy faggot who really really likes this guy (his son btw) but, oh, he doesn't really want to cause an argument with the gods so I guess he has to die. He's just a mortal, after all.

>>2593432
Agamemnon maybe

>>2593549
Yeah, Agamemnon, totally capable of being objective w/r/t himself, considering everything

>"good"
>"guy"
>"objective"
where's spock

Best translation?

>>2593516
>The struggle between two fundamentally human guys is one of the major themes of the poem.

Not him, but it really isn't. Homer does everything he can to undercut the struggle between the two. It doesn't even happen except for an accident of fate, and he sets it up that this is no titanic duel, Hektor doesn't stand a chance and EVERYONE, Hektor included, knows it. That's why he can't even beat the two lesser Achaean leaders, Diomedes and Ajax. That's why he flees immediately upon confrontation.

The main antagonist of the Iliad isn't Hektor, it's Agammemnon, and what's more, he essentially wins his struggle against Achilles..

The film Troy really did fuck up a lot of people's perspective of the Iliad - and indeed of heroic/epic literature in general.

All such literature all the way from Gilgamesh to the Iliad to the Mahabharata to the Shahnamesh is primarily concerned (there are other themes but this takes precedence) with the relationship between kings and heroes, angle by extension between man and God(s). Gilgamesh/Enkidu; Achilles/Agamemnon; Rostam/Kay Kavus. It goes on.

But all of a sudden Troy and Brad Pitt and the Hulk come along and it's all about le epic sword fight.

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>>2591244
> insulting father of gods and men

>>2593569
L A T T I M O R E

But the physical editions are so shit. For the Iliad it's at least acceptable, but the Odyssey is printed on literal toilet paper.
>>2593581
You're as wrong as it's humanly possible to be. Achilleus' and Agamemnon's "struggle" is not the focus. The effects, yes -- for example, the Atreides figuring out just how the fuck they're going to survive without Achilleus. As for their "struggle" -- it soon turns into Achilleus' own struggle with himself, and his destiny, and glory.

And then the whole thing ends when it becomes apparent to Achilleus that it was meaningless in the face of his friendship with Patroklos, which now is finished.

I don't know how you'd read the Iliad without noticing the whole "these two people are driven by ~fate~ to fight each other" thing. Read the last stand-off between Achilleus and Hektor, and tell me Hektor's speech isn't the culmination of much of the novel.

I'm not talking about some titanic duel you dongle. This isn't some superhero movie where both guys have to have a fighting chance. The fact they both must struggle at all is what I'm talking about.
>>2593609
Gilgamesh is pretty occupied with death and friendship. Yes, kingship is a big part, but it's only a part. It certainly doesn't take precedence.

In the ancient world you didn't have to unambiguously and unilaterally demonize the antagonist in order for the plebic to sympathize with the hero, like (((Hollywood))) and ((("""history"""))) related to WW2.

>>2593440

so what are some essential Roman works to check out?

>>2593670
There is no such thing.

>>2593650
The myth of Tarquinius Superbus disproves that claim. He was unambigiously a bad guy.

Also, fuck off, >>>/pol/.

>>2593670
>>2593675
Actually, I take that back. The Bible.

>>2593615
I think you've put the cart before the horse re: Gilgamesh.

Friendship, what it means to live, and what it means to die are huge parts of Gilgamesh. However all this flows forth from the relationship between man and God.

Gilgamesh is favoured because of the gods.
Gilgamesh falls out of favour and the gods send Enkidu.
Enkidu thus learns what it is to be live and be civilised through sex with Shamhat.
Gilgamesh and Enkidu fight because of the gods.
Gilgamesh and Enkidu become friends because of the gods.
Enkidu dies because of the gods.
Gilgamesh searches for the cure to death because of the gods.

See what I mean? Also, before he was king, Gilgamesh was a hero. Before Enkidu was a man, he was an animal, running with the deers. The hero/king dichotomy is a microcosm of the wider theme of man and the divine.

>>2593615
>Achilleus' and Agamemnon's "struggle" is not the focus.

Go look up what is literally the fucking first line of the poem. Any translation you care to use.

>The effects, yes -- for example, the Atreides figuring out just how the fuck they're going to survive without Achilleus. As for their "struggle" -- it soon turns into Achilleus' own struggle with himself, and his destiny, and glory.


And why he should be listening to someone like Agammemnon, and eventaully coming to full circle and realizing he should, even though he's the better warrior and better war leader. Did you miss the javelin toss episode of the funeral games?

>And then the whole thing ends when it becomes apparent to Achilleus that it was meaningless in the face of his friendship with Patroklos, which now is finished.

No, it ends with him swallowing his pride and letting Priam have the body back, because he realizes that it's actually not all about him, and he should step up and take some damn social responsibility.

>. Read the last stand-off between Achilleus and Hektor, and tell me Hektor's speech isn't the culmination of much of the novel.

It isn't, because Achilles doesn't actually listen to a damn thing he says. It's only afterwards, when he realizes that glory is in the minds of others, not his own, and that he needs to play the social game, instead of doing whatever the hell he wants, that it penetrates. It's not a culmination, it's a tightening of tension, a chance for Achilles to learn, and his failure to do so, foreshadowing the events in the next book.

>The fact they both must struggle at all is what I'm talking about.

And again, the struggle between the two doesn't actually resolve anything; it doesn't end the war one way or the other, and it doesn't actually resolve Achilles's internal conflicts. It is thematically undercut as early as book 7, when Ajax ekes out a narrow win against the guy, albeit a non-fatal one, and all the Achaeans are crowing that Troy is finished.

>>2593675
>Livius, Seneca, Terentius, Virgilius

>>2593670
Romans didn't concern themselves with the realm of epics and poetry and plays all that much.

The ideal Roman was the citizen-soldier-farmer; not a playwright or philosopher (Marcus Aurelius is debatable but I would argue stoicism is the very opposite of philopsophy).

All great Roman literature is either rhetorical or historical in nature.

Go read Cicero, Julius Caesar, and Marcus Aurelius.

>>2593686
Just because it flows from this, does not mean it is less important. A great deal more time is spent on Gilgamesh's mourning/search for immortality than on, say, the proper ordering of the city.
>>2593689
>Go look up what is literally the fucking first line of the poem
Yeah it really deals with all that Patroklos buggery doesn't it?

It's not telling you the point of the poem. It's an argument.

>and he should step up and take some damn social responsibility
No it's about his realisation that War Kills People, and so does glory.

>because Achilles doesn't actually listen to a damn thing he says
How is that relevant. Or is the reader Achilleus?

>he needs to play the social game
holy fucking shit how do you misread the Iliad this badly

You know when he's giving shit away? In the games? That's because he no longer cares. He's done; he's found vengeance, he's learnt the value of friendship, he knows material goods like Bryseis don't matter and petty conflicts about honour also don't matter. Hence his shutting up those two guys who make bets about the chariot race, or his neat handling of the chariot race's prize-giving.

Its lack of resolution is the point of it you utter mongoose.

>It is thematically undercut as early as book 7, when Ajax ekes out a narrow win against the guy, albeit a non-fatal one, and all the Achaeans are crowing that Troy is finished.
Do you literally read for the plot?

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I hate Ajax.

Raping Priamos youngest daughter, the poor Cassandra, who was holding my favourite goddess Athena's statue in Athena's own temple... I was shaking with anger, reading of that.
KUYASHII.

The Greeks deserved everything that happened to them on their way back. Also, what's the term again for the totality of all stories about returning from the Trojan War?

>>2593766
>Troy did nothing wrong!!!
>my favourite goddess, Athena
what

>>2593778
Violating xenia is much less of a transgression than all the sacrileges that the Greeks committed in Troy, and even worshipping the same goddess wouldn't immunize you from someone's criticism.

>>2593738

>It's not telling you the point of the poem. It's an argument.

An invocation of the Muse as to what he wants to be inspired about isn't telling you the point of the poem. That's certainly an interesting interpetation.

>No it's about his realisation that War Kills People, and so does glory.

He knew that already. He's actually quite good at killing people.

>How is that relevant. Or is the reader Achilleus?

You do know what a "protagonist" is, yes? And how the primary focus of the work is Achilles, even when he's not there, and you have all these long passages wondering what Achilles would do if he was, or how to use whatever just happened to get Achilles over?

>You know when he's giving shit away? In the games? That's because he no longer cares.

Of course he cares. Someone who doesn't care isn't going to sit there and play referee among squabbling petty kings. And giving shit away is part and parcel of the social responsibility of a Greek warrior king. When Menelaus and Agammemnon keep giving expensive gifts to people, you think they're also not caring about life and giving up? That's how you greased the wheels back then.

> He's done; he's found vengeance, he's learnt the value of friendship, he knows material goods like Bryseis don't matter and petty conflicts about honour also don't matter.

I suggest you re-read the actual climax of the work, Priam's speech to Achilles. If honor and petty conflicts and material success don't matter, Achilles would just walk away from the battle. He can, you know. It's not like anyone could stop him. But he doesn't. He goes on to fulfill his destiny, even though he knows it will kill him.

1/2

>>2593738

2/2

>Hence his shutting up those two guys who make bets about the chariot race, or his neat handling of the chariot race's prize-giving

What the hell? Achilles isn't mad at Ajax and Idomeneus for betting, but for their conduct, of shouting and quarreling at what is supposed to be something in honor of the dead. And I completely fail to see how his playing politics among whining Greek chiefs counts as him giving up on personal glory. It's him going for a less direct sort of leadership other than something won from the might of his spear.

>Its lack of resolution is the point of it you utter mongoose.

But you have a resolution. That's what happened in the final book. Achilles learns his lesson. He swallows his pride. He gives the body back, he acts "normally", even though it will lead to his death.

>Do you literally read for the plot?

You do realize that the "plot" is the quarrel between Achilles and Agammemnon, right? And yes, I've read the Iliad. That's why I know, even as far back as book seven, that the struggle between Hector and Achilles is a sideshow. Hektor has no more of a chance than any of those poor bastards in books 20-21.

The primary significance of the duel with Hektor isn't even the duel itself, it's the reclamation of identity. Did you think that it's some accident that Patrokles takes on Achilles's social identity, leading the Myrmadons, even wearing his fucking armor? And that when Hektor kills him, he claims the armor for himself, wears it to the duel? Hektor needs to die, not because he's a trojan champion, but because he's trying to become the Achilles role, and there can only be one.

Have you read the book? Because it really seems like you've only skimmed it.]]

>>2593833
>>2593830
Why are you hitting the Enter key after each line? It hurts my fucking eyes.

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>>2593704
>All great Roman literature is either rhetorical or historical in nature.
But Ovid's Metamorphoses are neither rhetorical, nor historical, and yet they are great Roman literature...?

>>2593609
>The film Troy really did fuck up a lot of people's perspective of the Iliad - and indeed of heroic/epic literature in general.
I fucking hate what they did to Ajax the Greater. He and Hektor fought to a draw twice. They even had dinner together and exchanged gifts after the 1st duel; the belt that Achilles tied Hektor to his chariot was Ajax's present.

To be fair, there's no way you can properly condense and depict the Iliad effectively. Especially with the gods and goddesses fucking around.

Shit we didn't even get Achilles vs Memnon which was the best opponent the Trojans could field against the Greeks. Memnon was their ringer and his battle with Achilles eclipsed Hektor's final stand in every way possible.

>>2593848
90% of people on /his/ are retarded, just ignore him. He probably doesn't even realize that medieval literature owes an enormous debt to the Latin works of antiquity and doesn't think that the Vulgate is relevant.

>>2593819
I'm referring to the fact that Athene spends all her time either fucking over the Trojans or sulking because she's not allowed to fuck over the Trojans.
>>2593830
>That's certainly an interesting interpetation
Not really but okay.

Unless you think the Odyssey is literally all about eating those cows?

>he knew that already
Clearly not.

>You do know what a "protagonist" is, yes?
Yeah. It's not the reader. We're talking about the reader. You know, the person reading the poem. You. Me.

>Someone who doesn't care isn't going to sit there and play referee among squabbling petty kings
Why not?

>He goes on to fulfill his destiny, even though he knows it will kill him.
Exactly. And it's not because of something as plebby as "social responsibility". This isn't some great moralising work. Achilleus realises the futility of what he's done, the horror that he's partaken in (and the inevitability of it all...maybe), and the true reason for it all. This is not some Aesop's fable.

Achilleus just realises that their questioning of each others' honour (reread the passage, and see what it's about) is unimportant, and needn't end the same way his did.

I still can't believe you think after all he goes through, Achilleus decides to become some Grey Eminence manipulator.

Achilleus already swallowed his pride, the moment he learned of Patroklos' death. This is simply his realisation that he's only brought more death upon anothers' house, and that he was driven to do so, and probably will do so again. And there's nothing he can do. Hence his anger when Priam tells him to have a nice life after the war.

>You do realize that the "plot" is the quarrel between Achilles and Agammemnon, right?
No, it isn't, and no, that's not what I asked.

>the struggle between Hector and Achilles is a sideshow
This is not an interesting interpretation. It would be good if it were interesting, but it isn't. It's just shit.

You don't need to have even combatants for a struggle to be the focus.

>>2593848
Ovid's Metamorphoses are also a pile of perfumed shit. Probably with nice twinkly bells piled on.

>>2591997
That's because the Romans were butthurt that the perfidious Greeks destroyed Troy. Aeneas is the ancestor to Romulus and Remus so no surprise they favor the Trojans over the sneaky bastard whose idea overthrew Troy.

Sean Bean made this movie for me. I didn't care for Pitt, Bana, Bloom, or even O'Toole. Bean as Odysseus was awesome and it's one of the few films that he didn't die in. Plus as a Game of Thrones fan, we saw 2 future castmembers like James Cosmo as Lord Commander Mormont and Julian Glover as Pycelle.

I wish they had made an Odyssey film with Bean. He's too old now, but fuck he was perfect in 2004.

>>2593892
Hmm, this seems like a scholarly opinion, supported by people who know what they're talking about, that I should take into account...I'm not joking lol
>Fuck Caesar and fuck white people

>>2593908
Are you implying the Romans were white?

>>2593908
Are you implying the Romans were people?

>>2593912
>>2593921
FUCK CAESAR AND FUCK MEDITERRANEAN 'PEOPLE'

>>2593912
Hello >>>2590529

>>2590618
I dont know where you fuckers get this "bow is a cowards weapon" shit, you were judged as a warrior partly by how well you could shoot

The symbol of Apollo was a bow
Demeter was depicted with a bow
Heracles used the bow in many of his labors (and was noted as being a good bowman

There is nothing cowardly about marksmanship.

>>2593882
>Unless you think the Odyssey is literally all about eating those cows?
No, it's about "the man of many devices", and his wandering in his homecoming after the sack of Troy. Where the hell do cows come into it? That's certainly not mentioned in the invocation in the Odyssey either.

>Clearly not.
I'm pretty sure that Achilles knew that in war, people died, since he was prophetically informed that HE would die in this war.

>Yeah. It's not the reader. We're talking about the reader.
No we aren't. You asked how Achilles not listening to Hector's last hectoring was relevant. I answered that, and you spouted some nonsense because apparently the realizations of the protagonist in a work of literature are irrelevant for reasons that elude me.

>Why not?
He doesn't care. He's apparently giving away all of his shit and getting ready for his own death. But he will play politics.

>Exactly. And it's not because of something as plebby as "social responsibility". This isn't some great moralising work. Achilleus realises the futility of what he's done, the horror that he's partaken in (and the inevitability of it all...maybe), and the true reason for it all.
But that doesn't follow your own premise, because he can leave it all behind. Hell, the Odyssey, since we're bringing that up, has the ghost of Achilles say that even being the meanest farmer or crofter is better than being the most honored of all the dead. It IS a moralizing work, just moralizing from a Greek perspective. Achilles learns to Do the Right Thing, at least how someone like Homer would define the "Right Thing", even though it sucks for him, personally.

>Achilleus just realises that their questioning of each others' honour (reread the passage, and see what it's about) is unimportant, and needn't end the same way his did.
They don't question each other's honor, just judgment and eyesight. And he tells them both to sit down and shut up, not say, delivering any sort of his apparent realization.

>>2593882


>I still can't believe you think after all he goes through, Achilleus decides to become some Grey Eminence manipulator.
That's not what I said, but nice strawman. What he becomes is a "proper" Greek war-chief. He already had the valiant and clever in battle part, but now he becomes someone who can actually work with others insteado f dicking off to do his own thing, when he feels like it, and sulking in his tent when he doesn't.

>Achilleus already swallowed his pride, the moment he learned of Patroklos' death.
Then what is all that boasting and desecrating of Hektor's body about?

>This is simply his realisation that he's only brought more death upon anothers' house, and that he was driven to do so, and probably will do so again. And there's nothing he can do. Hence his anger when Priam tells him to have a nice life after the war.
What anger? He literally does what Priam wants him to. He "moves Achilles to tears", something, which by the way, is definitely new, and Achilles reproves Patrokles for giving into tears like a woman at the plight of the rest of their allies.

>No, it isn't, and no, that's not what I asked.
Yes, it is, and you can't separate the plot from the rest of the work.

>This is not an interesting interpretation. It would be good if it were interesting, but it isn't. It's just shit.
Funny, it's the interpretation you'd get at any decent classics course in any decent university. But I guess they're all shit!

>You don't need to have even combatants for a struggle to be the focus.
You do, however, need to have something at stake, and something resolved when the struggle ends. Neither happens with the struggle of Achilles vs Hektor. You also need to have, you know, FOCUS on the struggle, instead of undercutting it. The fight between Ajax and Hektor takes up more lines than the fight between Achilles and Hektor. What's not to say that the Ajax-Hektor struggle is the "focal" one? Why doesn't the work end on Book 22?

>>2593848
Ok, granted. I should've said most.

Most revered Roman literature until the Christian period is historical or rhetorical in nature.

>>2594002
Exactly. Is a javelin considered a coward's weapon too since it's a projectile as well? Or does it get a pass because you have to actually hurl it through your own body mechanics and not rely on tension from string?

>>2594024
A javelin requires much closer range to the enemy than a bow. And is normally followed by melee combat anyway.

But yes, the anti-bow sentiment is a meme. Like all things, bows are cowardly when they're used effectively against you, not when effectively used by you.

You idiot, there are no 'bad guys' in the Iliad. Hector is good, does that mean he should have lived?
>>2592596
Hoplite warfare didn't exist in the time the Iliad is set, you dope. ONE TO ONE COMBAT.
>>2591045
Stop trying to drag your fedora agenda into a literature thread.

>>2594049
It's still essential to missile warfare. The bow is for long-range sniping and showering enemy formations with arrows. The javelin is when they get closer, the spear when you both breathe the same air in the same space, and the sword when it's finally face-to-face.

>>2593892
Plebeian taste.

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>>2594002
Artemis, the tomboy goddess, was depicted with bows, too.

>>2594098
Yeah, troo patrishans love getting their tongues all up in that perfumed shit.

I bet you like the Decameron, too. How charming! The only good parts are the plague-ridden parts. Read Chaucer.

>>2594109
I think we can all agree that there is no such thing as good literature, stop trolling

>>2594107
>>2594002
Actually, didn't you just confuse Demeter/Ceres with Artemis/Diana?

>>2594129
yep, I fucked up. which is a shame because im greek.

>>2594128
SO patrish...*daydreams*

>>2594141
AHAHAHAHA

Turks did nothing wrong.

>>2594142
>>2594142
I haven't read a book in 10 years. I almost forgot how to write. Then I found this thread and started communicating. I just turned that time into time wasted,,,

>>2591037
How the fuck does one even come to that conclusion?

The Acheans were right, even if Agamemnon was a prick. That's what makes Hector's life tragic. He knew that he was fighting on the wrong side but he did it anyway to defend his family and his city, knowing he would never be abled to defeat Achilles.

>>2594206
his mother was of unknown origin and was probably either slavic or greek, she probably read him the illiad as a kid and he just associated the Trojans (Anatolian) with the Turks (by this time settled in Anatolia)

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>>2593900

>tfw they planned on doing a trilogy and the third was going to be Agamemnon getting killed by his wife for sacrificing his daughter.

>>2593900
>Plus as a Game of Thrones fan,
I knew that I shouldn't have read this far and should have stopped reading there, but I read the rest of the sentence and now I want to gouge out my eyes.

>>2594267
I bet you hate 1984 and think DFW was an unmitigated hack.

Return whence you came, Redditor.

>>2594267
I loved Season 1 but the series admittedly got worse as it went on. I just wanted to bring up how Benioff reused some of his Troy actors for GOT.

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>>2594246
The story of Electra and Orestes avenging Agamemnon is even cooler.

>trashtalking the cut off head of your stepfather and co-murderer of your father

>>2591244
>t. a flaming charred corpse

>>2594310
Wrong on 3 counts, negroid.
>>2594379
I don't give a fuck about Troy, either, Hollywood deserves to be submerged in the Pacific.

>>2594379
Everyone told me season 1 is the worst but it ended up being my favorite.

It had a comfy-turned-tragic vibe that I really liked

>achilles is portrayed as the good guy

Did you even read it? He's portrayed as something between a beast and a good whose only purpose and skill is mankilling. He's a monster and an outcast for most of the book. He isolates himself from his fellow men and rejects the social order, making him little better than a barbarian. The final few books integrate him back into society with the games but imo this was a late addition to the story because his babarism was too appalling to audiences to not be remediated.

>>2591997
>Romans
>honour
I wasn't aware having animals kill and rape Christian children was honourable.

>>2594554
>Wrong on 3 counts, negroid.
Nah I really don't think so.

>>>/r/badliterature
>>2594659
It isn't. They weren't wildly popular, either.

>>2593766
Surely you don't mean Ajax the Greater?

Who was the classical god of the debts? Hermes, as the god of boundaries?

>>2594709
No, I meant the other Ajax.
Ajax the Younger raped Cassandra.

>>2594756
Ajax the Lesser*

Got to say, it's great to see that this amazing work has so many fans in our generation.

What's everyone's favorite translation? Mine is the Fagles. I don't read Ancient Greek, although it would be great to learn.

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>>2593971

salty Carthaginian spotted

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>>2593704

That's interesting.. were any other ancient civs notably uninterested in the arts like that? For how vast and long lived the Roman Empire was, I was thinking they'd at some point turn out a couple of fictional/mythological/folklore..etc. pieces that would be worthwhile.

Thoughts on Lucretius?

>Not getting the main point of the Iliad: The Post.

>>2593613
SG1 was the best, universe can suck my dick for wasting my time after I stayed up late when I should have been sleep, and Atlantis can fuck itself for being a rerun

>>2594694
>Nah
4 counts, then.

>>2595102
I'm not seeing a whole lot of evidence.

>>2594206
He wasn't entirely wrong. Turks are a mish mash of all the peoples that have inhabited Anatolia, including Trojans (who were related to the Hittites I think)

Ofcourse the royal turkish lines probably had mixed less with the locals at that point in history.

>>2594955
The Persians come to mind, although that may very well be due to the Achaemenids through to the Sassanids being oral cultures - with writing being reserved for court and administration - and the desert lizards pouring forth and destroying much in the 7th century and the steppe rats finishing off what remained in the 13th.

Of course, there is a great body of religious work from both Zoroastrianism and Manichaeism, but that's about it.

>>2590971
>>2594836
That's not how you spell Lattimore.

Fagles is fine for a casual read as it's more poetically licensed (it helps that Fagles is a good poet in his own right) and dynamic (though not as much as Fitzgerald) so it's very popular for the average reader who just wants a good story. But for someone interested in the monumental Homeric epic that the Iliad is with all its features context and idiosyncrasies, Lattimore is the clear choice. Yet, it's never dry or academic and is in many places both more elegant and captures the movements of the original Greek better.

There's a reason universities almost universally use Lattimore.

>>2590540
I had Illiad at school in ancient Greek.
I am Greek.
Its basically prety amoral. Things just happen. Keep in mind that back then they didnt have an almighty G.O.D that is good and right but many deities for everything humans do.

>>2590605
Diomedes was the best in this clusterfuck!

>>2595193
Also, Lattimore is aesthetically far superior. People who think Fagles is more readable aren't trying hard enough, and are probably plebs.

>>2595211
What's it like reading ancient Greek as a Greek person? Presumably they're very different?

>>2595211
Pay δεντς

>>2595226
It was a nightmare first of all!
Hard as fuck! But it was common language and a flowy poem so much much easier than doing Herodotus or later Hellenistic or Byzantine scripts.

But it was pretty cool to see first hand the basic fragments of the language you use. I mean, a lot of the language holes you use slang for, in ancient Greek were canon.

Odyssey was the best.
Verse something:
>Your balls shall he rip, raw will the dogs eat them.
Classroom favourite.

>>2595245
I am. Fuck me...
Emotionally, mentally, physically etc, it`s all I fucking do. My karma slate is gonna be clean as fuck when im done for...

>>2595226
It was a bigger language and much more coherent and complex. The words were constructions, not arbitary names for things.

>>2595226
Fun fact.
There are two poems written in Greek that go around since the 80's.
Pornodyssey and PornoIliad, both of around 6000 verses.

One of the first fanfics I guess.

>>2593670
>>2593704
This is greek but made during Roman times

Everything by Lucian, he lived by the 100s

>>2591997
Odysseus really was a bit of a prick though

>>2595193
>Fagles is fine for a casual read as it's more poetically licensed

This is what I prefer about it over Lattimore. If I want to understand it better I'll read it in Ancient Greek, and if you're actually studying the Iliad then the only true way to read it is in Ancient Greek.

Lattimore, while not bad, doesn't have the flair which Fagles has.

>>2595118
I don't need to provide you any, you retarded negroid

>>2593704
>All great Roman literature is either rhetorical or historical in nature

Who is Ovid, Horace, Propertius, Catullus, Martial, fucking Virgil?

This is the stupidest post I have seen in a long time. Could you make any more egregiously broad generalizations about something you clearly know very little about?

>>2595374
But you are sacrificing Homer's flair for Fagles' flair. True nothing can compare to learning the original language but that is an inordinate amount of work just to - ultimately - read a book.

Lattimore captures the flair of the original Greek so that you don't have to try decipher an entire language. And in doing so provides an experience that has its own beauty by virtue of its authenticity.

>>2595465
Any translation is an interpretation and a removal from the original. The original wasn't even written down, it was sung. Kill yourself. All these translations are garbage. The only way to truly experience Homer is to sell yourself into slavery on an Aegean island and wait for somebody who knows the epics to come and perform their art for your master, hoping to be in the room for at least a verse or two. I genuinely don't understand how people can act like one translation is somehow 'closer' to the original actuality of Homer than another.

I'm thinking about maybe getting the John Jackson parsed interlinear Iliad.

First book here:

https://www.scribd.com/doc/31078402/Iliad-Interlinear-Book-1

Good stuff!

>>2595477
You are the best case of autism I've run into yet on this board.

That one translation can be truer to a text than another is such common sense I literally have no idea how to even justify it. There's entire books and studies dedicated to the art of translating literally or dynamically/freely.

The question isn't whether Lattimore gives a closer rendition than Fagles. Of course he does. In vocabulary, syntax, structure, and metre (the most important as Lattimore preserves the dactylic hexameter of Homer compared to Fagles pentameter), he is undoubtedly closer. This side by side analysis to the original Greek proves as much: http://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/englishing-the-iliad-grading-four-rival-translations

Some of us just want to read a great work in a language we are already comfortable with and don't concern ourselves with autistic dreams of being a Hellenic fuccboi.

kys

>>2595542
Seems like it might be a good way to learn Homeric Greek, too. More fun than slogging through a grammar that uses "the boy carries the bucket"-sort of examples.

>>2595550
>Some of us just want to read a great work in a language we are already comfortable with and don't concern ourselves with autistic dreams of being a Hellenic fuccboi.
I'm sorry that you think that you're actually appreciating the same great work that people who actually spoke the language at the time of its writing experienced. Kill yourself. I don't give a fuck if one translation is 'better' than another, the difference is on the level of production, not just of translation.

>>2595465

If I want Homer's flair I'll read the original in Greek.

If I want a translators flair I'll read Fagles because it isn't as clunky as Lattimore's. Also, if you actually want to study Ancient Greek history and literature you NEED to learn Ancient Greek.

Now my ancient Greek fucking sucks and it takes me forever to read a fucking page, but when I'm being academic about shit in Ancient Greek I do read shit in Greek.

If I want to read the Iliad for fun or to look at more generally literary criticism (about themes rather than language) I'll read Fagles' translation because it's a better read than Lattimore's.

>>2595551
>fun
There's that buzzword again.

>>2595550
Lattimore doesn't use real dactylic hexameter, though (if that's even possible in English)

>>2595572
It's possible but feels unnatural to the iambic pentameter we all know and love.

Still, his six-beat translation is closer than everyone else's five-beat. It's certainly more authentic; but more enjoyable? That's up to the reader.

>>2595550
>I literally have no idea how to even justify it
So you can't justify it?

>>2595596
From what I understand, the Greek DH was based on long and short syllables rather than hard and soft syllables. I've tried to figure out how the fuck one would even pronounce that, but I'm so completely used to English stresses that it's hard to do. And of course one can find people online trying to do an authentic reading, but I don't have enough knowledge to judge whether they are legit.

>>2595562
>3000 years in the future
>Dweebs read translations of the Hamilton script
>"DUDE THIS IS JUST LIKE BEING ON BROADWAY"
The essence of /his/

>>2595631
https://youtu.be/qI0mkt6Z3I0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnkE02S9M7w

Not that guy but these are a couple of resources I used when I wanted to learn this. Once I felt like I had an understanding of what I was looking for I read along with the first video a few times until I could do it by myself.

>>2595659
Thanks, anon

How can anyone even get excited about this shit and these "characters"? They're all just toys of the gods, everything they do is directed by the gods, and they just assume whatever posture is predetermined for them. No free will, no character development, in fact no characters at all. Just lifeless chess pieces in an idiotic game by the gods who even themselves are just one-dimensional caricatures.

Fuck man Greek world view was so depressingly shit and uninteresting.

>>2595695
At least most people died before they were old enough to experience such garbage 'literature'

>>2595695
But it's very easy to read the Iliad and ignore the gods, basically re-interpreting them as a combination of externalized aspects of the psyches of the human characters, and luck.

I really liked the Fitzgerald translation. What's the matter with it?

>>2593670
Plutarch's parallel lives, though arguably that was Greek literature.

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>>2595601
Yup. It should be so obvious he might as well be debating the colour of the sky.

It's exaggeration for rhetorical effect.

git gud son

>>2595967
Fitzgerald takes the greatest poetic license. That rubs some people the wrong way who want a truer rendition of the text.

>>2595967
>>2597421
Also he doesn't even replace Homer's poetry with good poetry. It's okay, but that's not particularly great when compared with Homer.

Plus, poetic translations have a nasty habit of dampening Homer's force. Pope's is the worst offender.

>>2597452
This.

Lattimore and Fagles are the go-tos. Although, Fagles goes a bit too far in the other direction imo and veers into prose.

>They went on, as out of the racking winds the stormblast
that underneath the thunderstroke of Zeus-Father drives downward
and with gigantic clamour hits the sea, and the numerous
boiling waves along the length of the roaring water
bend and whiten to foam in ranks, one upon another;
so the Trojans closing in ranks, some leading and others
after them, in the glare of bronze armor followed their leaders.
Lattimore

>Down the Trojans came like a squall of brawling gale-winds
blasting down with the Father’s thunder, loosed on earth
and a superhuman uproar bursts as they pound the heavy seas,
the giant breakers seething, battle lines of them roaring,
shoulders rearing, exploding foam, waves in the vanguard,
waves rolling in from the rear. So on the Trojans came,
waves in the vanguard, waves from the rear, closing.
Fagles

>tfw Gods trick you
>son gets murdered
>wife gets enslaved
Hector had a hard life

>>2590540
homer was a trojan sleeper cell

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>>2595357
>>2596277

Thanks!

>>2597395
>It is not necessary to prove the apparently obvious
wat

>>2591219

Was Vegeta the only true Jap in Dragonball?
>shorter than everyone
>strict moral code, preoccupied with honor and dignity,
>thin eyes and big black eyebrows

>>2590592
Sad?

He had a good death. He had a badass speech and he stared his hard fate in the eyes and he died.

It is his wife and child you should be sad for, and every other wife and child and poor pleb in that gods-forsaken city.

Ottomans did nothing wrong. Greek genocide was just retaliation.

>>2600437

All Saiyans were based on the Serbs, a barbaric warrior people.

Even the name Vegeta was taken from a Yugoslavian condiment

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegeta_(condiment)

>>2600455
but it never actually happened.

You have problems.

>>2601417
The Saiyans are Jews, aren't they?

>>2601423

No, the Jews were Frieza's henchmen.

Saiyans/Serbs are the quintessential simplistic warrior nation who destroyed the sophisticated Byzantines (Tuffles) and then later are enslaved as mercenaries by Freeza (The Turks)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mw3BNZPCTsw

>>2590540
Yea. reading the lliad was like reading the second punic war. Fucking Hannibal was the good guy that had a tragic end.

>>2590659
It's little touches like his kid being scared of his helmet so he had to take it off to give him a hug that make me love history and historical works.

>>2593670
Cato's On Farming, the works of Cicero, The Aeneid, Juvinal's Satires, Suetonius, Tacitus, and even Josephus, Caesar's Gallic Wars.

If you read the Iliad, Hector is not portrayed in a flattering light. He's noble to modern sensibilities, but his fighting is portrayed as comparatively cowardly (although I would argue that given his opposition, entirely sensible) and even his killing of Patroclus was somewhat cowardly in how it went down (compared to the brazen killing that we had seen thus far).

>>2603068
Except "cowardice" was not as reviled as it is now. You can see many Greek heroes do the same thing, with their own justifications, and have wise men vindicate them.

But Hektor isn't portrayed in a flattering light. He lets his glory-hounding get the better of him, and as a result many Trojans die, and he dies.

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>>2590618
Odysseus, unlike Hector and Achilles, had both brawn and brains, Achilles was destined to live a life of glory, but die early on, whereas Odysseus not only took his fate into his own hands, but also changed the fate of others, he could easily be argued to have been the greatest hero of them all. Odysseus himself also passed more than a few insurmountable odds during his days.

So what was up with that reference to Bellerophon using curse tablets in the Iliad? Linear B was long dead in Homer's time and the Phoenicians hadn't brought the alphabet to Greece yet. How did a bunch of Bronze Age shepherds even know what writing was?

>>2604542
Homer is in 700 bc and Phoenicians were already in Eubea since 900-850 bc and even earlier in Crete (at Kommos)

>>2604546
Homer is almost certainly much older than that if he was even a real person, since people were attributing poems to him in the 7th century BC, around the same time as the birth of the Greek alphabet. While some Greeks almost certainly had knowledge of Phoenicians using writing even before then, the fact that it's a Greek who's writing and that that fact isn't presented as unusual, and also how epic poets were usually fucking blind and working in a much, much older oral tradition makes me think it wasn't copped from Phoenician traders.

>>2604604
>Homer is almost certainly much older than that if he was even a real person

He isn't, I keep reading everywhere about him living around 750 bc, so this point you're making si invalid.

Well maybe they recorded the thing about the tablets because the poem is suppsoed to take place in 1200 bc or something, so when Myceneans still used to write on tablets, so that episode actually is very old and genuine, that simply means that the Iliad contained very old aprts that actually were composed at the time they're supposed to happen, I don't see it as impossible since there are some people in Asia who remember up to 70 generations of their ancestors before them or something like that because of their religion

>>2593395
Honestly the Aeneid was really more of a bizarro propaganda piece. What the Romans really did well was satire. Juvenal, Ovid, and Horace are all solid choices. Terence is good if you like reading plays

>>2604604
Homer, if he ever existed (he did fuck you), definitely existed in the eighth century.

The best theory I know is that the Iliad was an oral epic which was set down by Homer in his own specific words. Kinda like the guy who supposedly created what we know as the modern Gilgamesh epic (out of a much older tradition).

>>2604604
The Greek alphabet was born around The second half of The 8th century BC at The very least, as it's arrested by some Greek insctiptions found in Ischia (an island in The gulf of Naples)

>>2594421
bruh the Orestia is fucking awesome, compare the homecomings of Agamemnon and Odysseus and you get some pretty interesting ideas

>Everyone talks about Fagles or Lattimore being the best translations
>I never got them because I got my copies of Iliad and Odysses for 10cents at a garage sale

Are you really missing out depending on translations?

>>2601466

Dude awesome
Thanks for sharing

>>2605950
Depends. If you lucked out and they're the uncopyrighted Chapman translation then you're fine. If you got some shitty prose translation then you're fucked.

Although, in fairness, bad translations are like smearing a tonne of Vaseline on your TV screen before you watch a movie. Yeah, it sucks, but you're still watching the movie.

>>2607208

the copy I read was E.V. Rieu - how fucked is his translation ?

>>2603068
>>2603269
>>2604165

disgusting gr**k propaganda to smear the glorious name of Hektor

>>2607269
Fucked. Sorry m8

>>2607208
>>2607269
>tfw i have Rieu for The Odyssey
>RHD Rouse for the Illiad

There is no escape

>>2604165
then why is he in Hell and being used as a chewtoy by Lucifer?
checkmate, Achaeans.

>>2591037
WE WUZ TROIANS AND SHIT

>>2590540

The Iliad is about the wrath and hubris of Achilles.

>>2593395
Cato the Elder.
Cabbage rulez!

>>2604165

I'd say he was the greater hero because he was more well rounded. Diomedes was a bad ass fighter and smart as well, but he did not have a downside, no character flaws. Odysseys was a skilled fighter and tactician as well. Though, he still made shitty mistakes, often on purpose, that got his men killed.

>>2593395

It pales in comparison to Homer's works, but it's still a good book. It's more Roman propaganda than greekaboo fanfiction. My issue with the book is that Aeneas is literally the perfect Roman. He has no character flaws, and as much as I hate to use this term, he's a mary sue.

>>2593471

In Greek culture, using your brain and "tricks" wasn't necessarily a bad thing. However the Romans shat all over Odysseus because of his trickery. In the Iliad, Odysseus was running away from battle or something and I believe it was Ajax that was talking shit to him for it.

I love how Alexander was basically Achilles irl without all the sulking

>>2590540
>the Iliad is about Greek victory over the Trojans
its not, its about Achilles` wrath

>>2590540
>he thinks the Iliad is about the Greek victory over the Trojans
>the fall of Troy isn't even in the book

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>>2608707
>He has no character flaws, and as much as I hate to use this term, he's a mary sue.
If Aeneas had no character flaws, he would've enacted clementia upon Turnus, not killed him in a fit of rage, upon seing Pallas' bracer.

>>2608815
We just don't have the complete Iliad, just like with most ancient texts.

>>2609044
Fuck off.

>>2609290
Do you think we have the complete Iliad?

>>2609295
Of course.

Perhaps you are confusing the Iliad with the general Epic cycle?

>>2590564
second post best post.
Disney made people believe that there is good and evil, two teams both with their heroes.
Luckily enough, in ancient times it was different from this crap, the roles and tropes are more nuanced and there are characters who maybe are dominant in one tragedy and are dominated in another one (see Oedypus)

>>2609300
Yes, I meant the Epic Cycle. Thank you.

I think knowledge of the whole cycle is required to know the true role of its constituent parts.

>>2609310
I didn't realise Disney was The Romans.
>>2609312
The Cycle itself was worse than anything Homer put out (apparently). It's no great loss to lose them. But I agree knowledge of what's going to happen (ex. Hektor's son's death) is necessary.

>>2609322
in modern times the notion of hero is more disneyan than ancient roman, you must agree

>>2609333
No not really. It's more medieval than Roman, but the Romans started the whole idea of heroes being good guys. From then on, the only thing that changed was what, exactly, being good entailed.

>>2595284

Explain further

>>2609351
we are always talking about european/western culture.
in the mediterranean we had a figure called in different names (Giufà in Sicily, Khodja Nasreddin in north Africa, other names in romanì people and Jews) who was basically a mixture between the trickster and the traditional hero, but he is kinda avoiding all this strict definitions.
>Medieval times
maybe you are referring to the Chanson de Roland, but even there the Saracens have moral and personal qualities, while the heroes are fighting against their passions.

>>2609365
What

We still have the idea of heroes doing bad things, it's just that now we expect them either to repent it or die tragically (in the literary sense of the word).

The average person isn't so stupid as to think Disney is everything.

>>2609373
>The average person isn't so stupid as to think Disney is everything.

well, if you think about it, lots of people idolize famous people, like politicians, tv star, sportsmen etc, they are basically heroes "senza macchia e senza paura" an expression which means "flawless and fearless".
Of course heroes do bad things: that's the reason we fall in love with them, as Lakoff brilliantly explained. we can relate more to someone who make errors and has some weakness.
what I'm trying to say is that in greek times the heroes could also be weak, or could be dominated, or could be extremely different from one story to another.
the difference is striking if we look at religion: the christian God is a man without flaws, while greek Gods were more troubled than men.
I hope I explained myself

>>2609393
>the christian God is a man without flaws
Have you read the Bible? When it comes to literature, God is very much a man with flaws. In fact the Jewish God is just as human as the Greek ones, if in a wildly different manner.

The difference I see is that Greek heroes don't have to be good people. Or at least, their flaws don't have to be judged by the narrative.

>>2609414
>their flaws don't have to be judged by the narrative.
I agree.
recent discourse was implying that the chorus was some kind of super ego/moral voice but it is a hysteron-proteron error: seeing the past with the distorted lenses of today's culture.
also, yes I read the Bible, and yes Jewish/Christian God is very human. but with "being troubled" I mean going around, morphing into a swan and fucking chicks, and I don't see it in the Bible

>>2609467
I mean He does shit like make Pharoah a stupid faggot because He wants to be famous. That's on the level of bloodletting the Trojan war purely because your wife is giving you a headache.

>>2608821

Ok, right up until the very last sentence in the book he was perfect. Even then, he was just enacting justice upon Turnus. Though, some say that it was a jab at Augustus.

>>2591997
>Why were Romans so fucking lame? No appretiation for interesting character personalities whatsoever. It's no wonder they didn't have even remotely exciting literature for centuries.
Nigga have you read livy? That is some of the greatest piece of fiction I have read in a while, the prose, the notions of a republic, the united nations of latium and their interactions with their neighbours, wars, famines, rapes, they have villains like Tarquin, the Decemvirs led by Appius.

The virtue of a man was important because virtuous men were said to be noble, and noble character is a mark of the patrician, the ruling class of rome, so all their men had to live up to a certain standard so that they dont turn into savage tyrants and steal or rape women like Lucerita and Verginia who were the catalysts of Roman political change according to livy.

Its all posturing to engender a feeling of conformity in action.

>>2610596

You cannot deny that Aeneas is boring as fuck.

>>2590618

The bow was recognized as a suitable tool for certain tasks, such as assassination/hunting. And it's more that the bow used by a coward just heightens his cowardice, but used by a decent man and it's fine.

Teucer used it with his brother Ajax shielding him and nobody gave Teucer shit for it.

>>2591997

They shit on Fabius even when it was clear his methods worked and they would resort to them in the future but never quite let Fabius off the hook.

It was an ancient version of the "WOW IT TOOK 3 OF YOU TO TAKE ME DOWN. YOU COULDN'T 1v1 ME RIGHT HERE FAGGOT"

>>2591997
Odysseus is a degenerate compared to Achilles. It's objectively true.

>>2610699

Odysseus is a much more three dimensional character.

A worthy thread.

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>>2593682

>>2610782
Anything more than 2 dimensions is degenerate.

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>>2607285
Surrender T*ojan scum, you lost.