Objectivism

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>>2480551
Here's some of my argument:

I don't see the purpose of ethics being "maximise the good throughout the world". I.e. I'm not a utilitarian.

I'm a psychological egoist - I believe everybody does what they do out of selfishness. Yes, even a soldier who jumps on a grenade to save his troop (he has internalised a sense of honour, and honour is what he's chasing). It doesn't make sense for any organism, or human, to not act in their own interest. People are only ever selfless when they have selfish reasons to do so.

So when I ask the question "is objectivism the best moral philosophy", what I mean is, is it the best moral philosophy for oneself?

I would argue that ANY moral philosophy that one chooses to adopt is done for one's own interests. Obviously this is a logical corollary of psychological egoism.

People have become Christian over the years because they sought moral guidance, moral certainty, and redemption. And a sense of community.

But in the modern world, everything is very individualistic. Religious communities don't really hold much social power. The real power these days is derived from MONEY. And yes, communalism in business can help you earn money, for sure (that is, forming a company rather than being a sole trader).

But anyway, I think the most logical thing to do in this life is to gain as much as one can for oneself. And that's what objectivism highlights.

So do you think it's the best moral philosophy for the modern world? Personally, I think it might be.

If objectivism leads to the most advanced and powerful version of humanity with the greatest potential to expand, project, and protect human life for maximum survival, then yes. What other goal could outweigh the importance of promoting the advancement of the survivability and capability of the next generation? If we all shared everything and limited ourselves in the name of social justice and had perfectly distributed resources and educations and justice, but we still lived huts and got wiped out by simple diseases, not that is not a better civilization for human future. I can respect the wisdom of ancient peoples and indigenous people who want to preserve the earth and live in peace, but we have already eaten from the tree of knowledge, there is no way to go back.

Conflict, competition, fear and struggle are what advance our species to new heights of knowledge and power. It's up to the individual to promote his place in this world, not society to level off everyone to the lowest common denominator and then protect the statis quo. Individuals comprise societies.

The stronger the individuals power and capabilities, the stronger the component society will become.

>>2480551
Rand was fucking retarded and her ideas have no basis in reality.

>>2480789
>What other goal could outweigh the importance of promoting the advancement of the survivability and capability of the next generation?
Individualism as a means to an end isn't Objectivism though.

>>2480844
It's not a means, its a consequence of the individualism. I guess "goal" wasn't the correct way to state it. But if we make maximized individual power and capabilities the ideal, then the society made up of such people will be the most powerful and capable society.

I put the cart in front of the horse sort of.

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Tell me /his/.

Tell me how Nozick, a pureblood American philosopher who took on social-liberals for shit and giggles and probably pissed eagles and liberty while being respectable all around the globe for his provoking thoughts in political philosophy and epistemology, gets ignored in favour of some incoherent Russian slut.

>>2480844
Also I meant that by allowing individuals the best conditions to promote themselves and build thier individual power, they will then use that power and capabilities to the best advantage of the survival and advancement of their offspring. It's not a societal collective goal, its an individual goal and responsibility best handled by the self empowered person. Thus each powerful and capable individual is acting in the best interest of the next generation by promoting thier own, and thier offspring's best conditions for advancement and increase in knowledge of power. This is not a condition that a collective society can properly promote.

>>2480575
Regarding everything being done for selfish reasons:

If there is only ever one type of reason as you claim, then it has no adjective since it is always of one type and therefor it is only a reason. Not a selfish reason, just a reason.

The error in your argument is that you're completely eliminating every other possibility as a premise, using anecdotes. In essence you claim every reason is selfish because it comes from a self, i.e. reason doesn't exist without someone having it. This warps the banality of the statement into someone seemingly more thought through.

In essence your argument is a word play.

>>2480789
>If objectivism leads to the most advanced and powerful version of humanity with the greatest potential to expand, project, and protect human life for maximum survival, then yes.
I don't care about any of that though.

As I said here - >>2480575 - the question I am asking is "is it the best moral system FOR ONESELF".

I don't give a fuck what happens to anybody else (unless it affects me).

>>2480823
>her ideas have no basis in reality.
What do you mean by this?

>>2480874
>>2480898
>if we make maximized individual power and capabilities the ideal
We do, which is why liberalism has become the dominant philosophy of the West; a philosophy which is literally all about letting every person, no matter who they are, maximise their individual power and potential.

>>2480891
I don't know what Nozick's political philosophy is (even though I literally wrote an essay on him, and Rawls, in a political philosophy module at university. He didn't leave an impression on me.)

Whereas everybody knows who Rand is and what her ideas were.

>>2480918
This is the worst argument I've ever read in my entire life

I'm not joking

>>2481431
>liberalism
>a philosophy which is literally all about letting every person, no matter who they are, maximise their individual power and potential.
What if I wanted to maximize my power and potential by becoming a brutal warlord who enslaves thousands of people? Would liberalism be ok with that?

>>2481518
I guess not

Anyway can we get back to the question at hand? Which is whether objectivism is the best moral philosophy for one to embrace in the modern age.

>>2481383
Objectivism is a mashing together of several different individualist ideas and free market capitalism applied to Rand's fanfiction world and not reality. It fails immediately when it meets reality and Rand herself couldn't stick to her own shitty ideology.

It's no less a fantasy than Marx's idea of a utopian Communist future and really it all boils down to Rand having a hate boner for communism and wanting to get fucked by an engineer.

If you still take Rand seriously after the age of 16, you've been stunted and I'd advise reading the works of other individualists so you can see just how shit Rand is in comparison. She's shit as a writer and as a philosopher.

>>2480551
I wouldn't go as far as calling being a selfish prick a philosophy. Fun part is - you are trying to rationalize it and convince yourself, that being antisocial is good for society.

Yes.

>>2480918
It's something moral realists tend to forget. They think morals exist as an objective absolute and people should be moral just because, even if they don't want to be moral.

Objective ethical realism vs. Subjectivism really boils down to a very simple question.

Is it best to pursue beneficial symbiotic relationships with everything, or is it best to exist as a dominant parasite which is capable of disengaging from being preyed upon.

I feel the answer is painstakingly obvious, getting there is the thought provoking part.

>>2480891
Because Nozick never distilled his philosophy into literature suitable for mass distribution.

It may seem trivial but salesmanship matters

>>2480918
>If there is only ever one type of reason as you claim, then it has no adjective since it is always of one type and therefor it is only a reason. Not a selfish reason, just a reason.
So if all cars were red, we wouldn't be able to say anything meaningful about them; we wouldn't be able to say that they're fast or slow, we wouldn't be able to say how many wheels they had, etc., because according to you, that's impossible.

Okay, got it.

>>2481828
I don't understand how this is a response to his terrible non-argument

The post he was responding to (my post here: >>2480575) isn't arguing for moral realism, so why are you talking about moral realism?

>>2481620
>It fails immediately when it meets reality
How? How does the idea that you should do what's best for yourself "fail... when it meets reality"?

>>2481811
>good for society.
You didn't read this: >>2480575
>I don't see the purpose of ethics being "maximise the good throughout the world".
>So when I ask the question "is objectivism the best moral philosophy", what I mean is, is it the best moral philosophy for oneself?

>It's no less a fantasy than Marx's idea of a utopian Communist future
How, exactly? Objectivism defends a laissez faire capitalist society - which existed at the time that she was writing, AND WHICH STILL EXISTS. These laissez faire capitalist societies are, in fact, the most prosperous in the world. And they have survived for centuries. Whereas almost all communist societies in the world have failed.

So how exactly are her ideas "fantasy"? Can you please explain that one to me?

>She's shit
Ad hominem; not an argument

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>>2481878
>Objective ethical realism
That's not what objectivism is you fucking moron.

>>2482107
Objetivism : The belief that certain things, especially moral truths, exist independently of human knowledge or perception of them.

Moral Realism: (or Moral Objectivism) is the meta-ethical view (see the section on Ethics) that there exist such things as moral facts and moral values, and that these are objective and independent of our perception of them or our beliefs, feelings or other attitudes towards them.

Okay aggy beta, try again

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>>2482168
>>2482168
>Objetivism : The belief that certain things, especially moral truths, exist independently of human knowledge or perception of them.

Again, that's not what objectivism is, you fucking moron.

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>>2482203
Oh look a micro sample to confirm your micro perception of etymology.

Here's a macro definition understood by philosophers:

>>2482230
The OP pic is a fucking Ayn Rand novel, obviously it's about the Ayn Rand type of Objectivism.

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>>2482230
This guy is intelligent enough to look at the OP and understand what this thread is about: >>2482244

Unfortunately, you're not

>>2482230

Jesus Christ, you are one thick idiot.

>>2481878
your post makes absolutely no sense whatsoever

So as always /his/ can only devolve into semantics.

Clappingman.jpg

>>2482091
>Objectivism defends a laissez faire capitalist society - which existed at the time that she was writing, AND WHICH STILL EXISTS. These laissez faire capitalist societies are, in fact, the most prosperous in the world. And they have survived for centuries. Whereas almost all communist societies in the world have failed.

laissez faire society does not exist and has probably never existed

>>2481382
When (if) you have children you will discover that thier fate is directly something that effects you. Your promotion of your own power is a promotion if your interest and thier interests as it will ultimately benefit them as well. That is the only biologically objective moral that can be said to exist from a realism standpoint.

Thus objectivism, if it allows the maximum power to the individual, creating the strongest and most capable individual will result in a society where individuals can pass on whatever advantages they gain in whatever form to their offspring. When each person is responsible for them self and thier interest it leads to higher individual achievement and a better starting platform for the offspring of that individual. This advancing the species (I know not a concern of yours, but an end product of the process of life and evolution) towards greater power, capability, and survivability.

>>2482490
>we should behave the way single cell organisms behaved billions of years ago

>>2482490
What about hivemind/singularity?

>>2482388
He obviously thinks I'm talking about moral realism, which I guess you might want to call "moral objectivism" if you're so inclined

But of course I am talking about Ayn Rand's system of philosophy that she referred to as "objectivism".

Here's a good summary of Ayn Rand's objectivism:
>Objectivism's central tenets are that reality exists independently of consciousness, that human beings have direct contact with reality through sense perception, that one can attain objective knowledge from perception through the process of concept formation and inductive logic, that the proper moral purpose of one's life is the pursuit of one's own happiness (rational self-interest), that the only social system consistent with this morality is one that displays full respect for individual rights embodied in laissez-faire capitalism, and that the role of art in human life is to transform humans' metaphysical ideas by selective reproduction of reality into a physical form—a work of art—that one can comprehend and to which one can respond emotionally.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivism_(Ayn_Rand)

>>2482463
Yes it has. Anarcho-capitalism, which is what you're thinking of, is not the same as laissez faire economics. Laissez faire economics is not committed to the removal of ALL government interference. Stop being a fucking idiot.

>little children deserve to die because their parents work for da gubmint

the best moral philosophy ever

it's for sociopaths and kids bullied in school who never got out of the "ONE DAY I'M GONNA RAIN DOWN VENGEANCE UPON YOU BASTARDS" phase

>>2481431
If you mean classical liberalism yes. This is the dominate philosophy of the west because it gives the individual the best feelings of autonomy and potential. But that is not the same as capability and power.

You are talking about a liberalism that does not fully inform the status of an individual within the society. When you burden an individual with the well being and upkeep of a whole society you are not maximizing his potential power or capabilities. Most certainly not when you put hard limits on the scope and scale of his endeavors to enact his ideas however he sees fit. Only by this free expression of individual power to take risks and fail without the safety net of the state do you produce results that exceed previous generations capabilities and knowledge. Seeking symbiotic balance of all things may abe a great abstract ideal but it results in stagnation. Even conflict and struggle while having negative short term impacts yields long term benefits to knowledge and the power of human capabilities.

The type of power that advances human civilization is not the power to define your gender as you wish or marry whomever you want. These are great personal liberties afforded by our modern civilization but these are not power except in an ideological sense.

The kind of individual power I'm talking about can best be defined as person leverage against the status quo of society to create the results one desires for ones self and ones offspring. For example a person being able to leverage thier personal assets and influence to colonize another planet would be individual power. Whether that is a right or wrong thing to do is up to the individual to decide. This is opposed to a collective state power where a government may have the ability to do the same thing but be unwilling to do so because the collective will of the people or political process does not exist to do it.

>>2482543
>Laissez faire economics is not committed to the removal of ALL government interference.
of course not, only the kind of "interference" that works on the behalf of the consumer

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>>2482577
>basically pic related

>>2482510
Yes we are multicelled biological organisms, we should take lessons about what works in reality from the largest most robust living collection of living things which by the way have prospered and withstood massive odds against it and thrived even under planetary wide disasters.

>>2482490
>When (if) you have children you will discover that thier fate is directly something that effects you. Your promotion of your own power is a promotion if your interest and thier interests as it will ultimately benefit them as well. That is the only biologically objective moral that can be said to exist from a realism standpoint.
I agree with that

>Thus objectivism, if it allows the maximum power to the individual, creating the strongest and most capable individual will result in a society where individuals can pass on whatever advantages they gain in whatever form to their offspring. When each person is responsible for them self and thier interest it leads to higher individual achievement and a better starting platform for the offspring of that individual. This advancing the species (I know not a concern of yours, but an end product of the process of life and evolution) towards greater power, capability, and survivability.
Perhaps true

But as I said, I'm mainly wondering whether objectivism is good FOR ONESELF.

I'm wondering what positive/good reasons there are for someone to believe in objectivism, as opposed to other ideologies like Christianity or whatever.

And I think objectivism probably IS a good thing to believe in, because in today's individualistic world, it will help you get ahead.

If you found yourself in 19th Century America then it would behoove you to be a Protestant, because other belief systems were essentially persecuted, and all the power lay with Protestants. But since today's society basically only venerates the self, I think that objectivism will allow you to succeed the most in the modern world.

>>2482599
That is basically all of humanity during ever stage of history. (did you read the text books?) and every form of living biological life yet known to man. You think we are like the mountains and adversity will just smash into us and wither away because we have morals and ethics? We are a living species. Many have been exticted before us. Many more will become extinct. I know that might not bother you.

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>>2482510
Every single organism on the planet is merely trying to proliferate itself, and we are no different, and if you think that we are, then you're wrong, and you fundamentally misunderstand biology.

>>2482552
Who says that "little children deserve to die"?

I'm not an expert on Rand by the way, maybe she said that. I've never read her books. I only know a bit about her philosophy, which is partly why I created this thread, to discuss it. But I just reckon it must be a good philosophy, since so many CEOs and entrepreneurs swear by it.

>it's for sociopaths and kids bullied in school who never got out of the "ONE DAY I'M GONNA RAIN DOWN VENGEANCE UPON YOU BASTARDS" phase
So Rex Tillerson didn't get out of that phase? (see pic)

Also the whole "rich people are sociopaths" meme is what jealous poor people say. Lol stay mad :D

Source for pic: http://www.businessinsider.com/21-ceos-name-their-favorite-books-2012-2?op=1&IR=T/#rgan-stanley-ceo-james-gorman-10

>>2482636
>But I just reckon it must be a good philosophy, since so many CEOs and entrepreneurs swear by it.
this is exactly why it's a terrible philosophy
ceos and entrepreneurs are pure cancer, people who will march us all into extinction because they're only looking out for the next quarterly report

>>2482599
If you are afraid that people acting under objective philosophies on thier own self interest to cause harm to groups of lesser strength, then you would also have the opportunity to counter that person with your own capabilities and power. Doing so, the ensuing struggle would not benefit you directly, bit having the ability to so that benefits your offspring as it slow them to learn from your struggle, gain from your advances and continue thier struggle until success. This process of conflict would result in the net increase of capabilities and power leveraging and survivability for them in the long term. This is the whole story of humanity. Do you think we got to this far by all just getting along?

>>2482676
Wow holy typo batman. I was thinking faster than my fingers.

>>2482599
Only by fearing the strong can the weak achieve greater capabilities and survivability until they are no longer at risk. This we no longer live in day to day fear of lions tigers and bears because we have advanced beyond thier threat. Nor fearing those things just gets you eaten.

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>>2482656
>people who do better than me in life, and have more money than me, and create thousands and thousands of jobs, and pay more taxes than anybody else, are cancer

>not murderers
>not rapists
>not welfare queens
>not burglars
>not thieves
>not fraudsters
>no no, the REAL cancer of society is entrepreneurs

>>2482676
>Do you think we got to this far by all just getting along?
I think we've gotten "this far" by using your methodology and when I say "this far" I'm talking about the coming rise in sea levels and the humongous number of people that will die in various ways. I'm sure that will gladden your heart since it will mean the human race has rid itself of "detritus" and will in the future be more advanced or whatever you like to tell yourself.

>>2482707
what does paying taxes, having money, creating jobs have to do with being a cancer on society
this only shows how limited your view is, as I said, all you and they see are the next quarterly report, no vision

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>>2482736
>what does upholding society have to do with being a cancer on society

>>2482802
if I buy and install new drapes in your house while burning it down by your retarded logic I'm being helpful

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>>2482707
>People who were born wealthy deserve to become wealthier and people who need assistance deserve to die

Blue collar crime involves a single victim, at most a few, and takes place at the margins of society, usually in poor ethnic neighborhoods
White collar crime fucks millions and undermines civic authority.

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>>2482827
>creating successful businesses that keep people employed, instead of rioting in the streets, and which pay for the taxes which fund public services, which literally uphold the functions of society, is EXACTLY THE SAME THING AS BURNING HOUSES DOWN

Flawless logic.

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>>2482863
>entrepreneurs were born wealthy

I suggest you look up the meaning of the word "entrepreneur"

>he thinks Bernie Madoff is an entrepreneur
>he literally didn't read my post that said thieves and fraudsters are cancer on society

Holy fuck you are the most retarded person I have come across on this board, and I'm not exaggerating.

>>2482877
>is unable to understand that I'm talking about the global climate change crisis that will probably be of biblical proportions even when it's spelled out to him

literally retarded
I'm pretty sure the only contact you have with a ceo or an entrepreneur is when they give you some pennies to fuck off with your squeegee

>>2482713
Dont you think finding solutions to global problems for survival reasons will greatly enhance our survivability in the face of other various scientific problems we will face in the future. You would have us be like the ancients who didn't know why the sea rises and can't do anything to mitigate or prevent it? So less knowledge, less power. I would rather we face the challenges that we face so that we can increase our science and knowledge and capabilities as a species.

>>2482891
>I suggest you look up the meaning of the word "entrepreneur"
a marketing gimmick meant to convince working rubes that they, too, could be a millionaires some day if they work hard, don't question authority, and accept shittier working conditions and reduced benefits in order to pay for their boss's tax cut

>Holy fuck you are the most retarded person I have come across on this board, and I'm not exaggerating.

Holy fuck you have no substance, you're just a shitposting moron who gets triggered and needs his safe space where everyone agrees with him

>>2482904
>Dont you think finding solutions to global problems for survival reasons will greatly enhance our survivability in the face of other various scientific problems we will face in the future.
I'd rather solve the problem than wait for it to destroy us and then start implementing solutions.

>You would have us be like the ancients who didn't know why the sea rises and can't do anything to mitigate or prevent it?
No, I'd like us to mitigate and/or prevent it, you're the one who's against mitigation/prevention.

>I would rather we face the challenges that we face so that we can increase our science and knowledge and capabilities as a species.
I would rather we mitigate or prevent the crisis than wait until millions/billions are dead. But that's just me. I'm the guy who likes driving with an airbag instead of intentionally driving into walls in a rickety old car just so I can "learn" that being in a fucking car crash is bad for you.

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>>2480551
While some more objectivity would be nice, what Rand is actually advocating is the abandonment of Altruism... Which I would argue is objectively unconstructive towards the goal of a prosperous and functioning society.

Not that she doesn't have some points, not that individuality isn't a healthy and important aspect in societies... But any philosophy taken to its ultimate extreme, is ultimately poisonous.

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>>2482877
>>creating successful businesses that keep people employed, instead of rioting in the streets, and which pay for the taxes which fund public services, which literally uphold the functions of society
Using his country's legal/judiciary apparatus, his country's infrastructure, and his country's educated labor pool. Because they worked hard and took calculated risks they are rewarded for their initiative, but because they are the primary beneficiaries of society, they are also the ones expected to pay the most towards its upkeep
>protip: every last single little piece of technology in smart phones was invented by the Department of Defense or the CIA and co-opted by the private market when these technologies became commercially viable

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>>2482899
Oh yeah that was really obvious that's what you were referring to

Completely obvious

You're a genius

You made it so subtle

>>2482918
>anybody who starts their own business is just engaging in a "marketing gimmick"

HOLY FUCK MY SIDES

PLEASE CONTINUE ANON THIS IS COMEDY GOLD

>>2483029
>Oh yeah that was really obvious that's what you were referring to

yes, when I said
>into extinction
I obviously was talking about people creating businesses

>>2480789
If

>>2480789

But it doesn't. Objectivity only caters to self interest.

Its like denying global warming even though your house is on the beach because you own oil stocks.

People do dumb things through self interest. You need technocrats like in China to do the right thing.

Which is why China isn't going to collapse and will be dominate after 2050 while USA collapses.

>>2483062
Best reply in the thread.

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>>2482977
>every last single little piece of technology in smart phones was invented by the Department of Defense or the CIA and co-opted by the private market when these technologies became commercially viable
this

>>2483062
t. Archidamus Eurypontid

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>>2483029
>I'll spout simplistic opinions for hours on end, ridicule anyone who disagrees with me, and generally foster divisiveness, cynicism, and a lower level of public dialog
Rates of new businesses being started have been falling precipitously over the course of history and is currently at historically low rates, and that has more to do with technological change than whose in control politically. More and more, business success is falling into the hands of people who already had the capital in invest (with rare exceptions).

"Entrepeneurialism" is hero-worship, the same kind of secular degenerate religion-analog which drove the Romans into decadence when technological change drove their societal arrangements into obsolescence and they refused to adapt. At best they are like Steve Jobs, slapping the freshest coat of advertising paint over technologies which largely arose out of military, national intelligence, and educational institutions. They are not the heavy lifters of society, they are the salesmen greasing the machine of human progress, and lionizing them needlessly is only aiding and abetting the creation of a two-tier society of haves and have-nots.

>>2483069
>You need technocrats like in China to do the right thing.
Not that I don't have my doubts, but I hate how some of the most nightmarish systems around are also among the most effective.

>>2483188

Keep in mind, I'm not saying I'd like to live in China, but their modern system is effective and basically destroys everyone elses economies over time.

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>>2483213
Meh, I'm hoping someone will come up with a system that is both more effective and more pleasant before we're stuck with that.

Sadly I've no real idea how to design such a beast, much less make it self-propagating. Sadly, for all her claims, neither did Rand.

>>2483069
Bullshit. China is currently teetering on the brink of financial Armageddon, in our generation of Chinese there are 2 million more men than women, a city's worth of men who will never even get the chance to feel the touch of a woman he didn't pay for. Their cities and rivers are chocking with pollution and desertification is taking over vast swathes of northern China. They've got a shit ton on their plate and their leviathan of a central bureaucracy is notoriously corrupt and bloated and drowning in debt. Global dominance is far from assured for any of the major powers, but all of the power players still have their money on the United States.

Back in the 1930's everyone thought that liberal democracy was dead and the future was either national socialism or communism. In the 70s and 80s everybody thought that the Japanese were going to take over the world, but after two decades of economic anemia and population decline, people realized that shit happens which nobody expects.

>>2483258

I've been hearing this like Zero-hedge for 5 years now.

China seems to be doing fine.

>>2483293
Not him, but on the other hand, a lot of their "doing fine" is dependant on the US and Europe doing fine.

If the US collapses, so does China.

>>2483299

China had a period where tens of millions people died from famine. Yet no one bothered to really revolt.

If the same happened in the USA, it would fall apart in 5 days.

>>2483307
Ah the old Gasaraki argument - while it may be true - what's going to stop them from starving?

>>2483328

I don't get your point?

China could survive an economic collapse and millions of its people dying from various causes and it would still continue to exist as a fascist authoritarian government as long as they had enough food and bullets for the military.

The USA on the other hand would have a secessionist revolt. Roving bands of armed militia hoarding resources and various other things free thinking people do when they are without food.

Best case scenario if the government would survive, they would elect in an authoritarian person or group who would ignore or dissolve the constitution and start murdering citizens who revolt without due process.

That said, even if the Chinese economy collapsed, millions of people wouldn't starve.

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>>2483307
>China had a period where tens of millions people died from famine.
Mostly because it was politically self-inflicted, like all famines are.

>If the same happened in the USA, it would fall apart in 5 days.
The U.S is not in any danger of that. The vast majority of its agricultural production is left idle, giving the soil time to replenish and keeping food prices above profitable margins. Small farmers are subsidized to basically just exist and grow food like soy and other niche interests. If the need arose the United States could very easily ramp up its food production, and contrary to partisan rhetoric you still get small farms in every state of the union, even in states with large urban centers like California and New York.

Trust me, running out of food is literally the last thing Americans have to worry about

>>2483349
Should have clarified - what's to take them out of that starvation and economic collapse? Their current economy more or less requires a super-power to trade with.

Yeah, you could make the argument they'll just war their way out of it - and you can make that same argument of the US, but in the long run, that doesn't really help. You can gather all the clay you want, but if your system requires trade with a more powerful economy, once there is none, you're kinda boned, and can't maintain that military to continue to expand.

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>>2483043
Mate stop skirting around with bullshit and tell me what the fuck you want to say or I won't engage with your bullshit

>>2482977
>Using his country's legal/judiciary apparatus, his country's infrastructure
Which entrepreneurs contribute to more than anyone else, because they pay more tax than anyone else.

>but because they are the primary beneficiaries of society, they are also the ones expected to pay the most towards its upkeep
And that's exactly what they do. I think Bill Gates once said that he's paid more money to US federal government than anyone else in history, which is probably true. Probably billions of dollars; and especially if you count the business taxes of Microsoft then I'm sure it is many billions of dollars.

>protip: every last single little piece of technology in smart phones was invented by the Department of Defense or the CIA and co-opted by the private market when these technologies became commercially viable
I'd like to see you defend this point because it's utter bullshit

>>2483521
Btw when I say entrepreneurs, I should have said *successful entrepreneurs

Obviously an unsuccessful entrepreneur will be broke and therefore won't pay much in taxes

>>2483521
>Mate stop skirting around with bullshit and tell me what the fuck you want to say or I won't engage with your bullshit
how many times do i have to say the same thing, four, five? extinction = climate change

>>2483149
>I've cherry picked little examples of technology that come from government-funded research laboratories, therefore everything inside these products was created by the state
No
As I said to the other guy, iOS and Android are just one example of something that wasn't created by state-sponsored agencies.
Both are based on UNIX (well they both have kernels which *copy* UNIX) which was developed at Bell Labs, which was owned by AT&T at the time.
So AT&T owned UNIX, but then they licensed it and shit.
But yes one has the XNU kernel (iOS) and the other has the Linux kernel (Android). The first was written by Apple (a private company). And also the whole of iOS, of course, all the libraries and shit, were developed by Apple (many of them are taken from OS X)
Linux was developed by Linus Torvalds while he was at university. Also Android uses Java, which was developed by Sun Microsystems (a private company)

>>2483187
>Rates of new businesses being started have been falling
Then start one

Christ your arguments are pathetic

>>2483553
when he said technology, he obviously meant the physical hardware, not the OS

so congrats, you found one (1) thing

>>2483604
It's still false, I don't know why I went off on that screed to be honest

>>2483543
Nah we'll adapt like we always do

The fuck is a couple degrees? Fuck all. A new beach where the Netherlands is. Lovely jubbly.

>>2483563
>his counter-argument is "well, do something to disprove your own argument" and he bitches about other people's arguments

>>2483612
>It's still false, I don't know why I went off on that screed to be honest

I've no idea about iphone technology but that pic is pretty damning
it depends on what you're trying to disprove, if your point is to prove that not literally everything in an iphone was invented with governement help then maybe you'll find some rinky-dink part but all the important stuff is

>>2483612
>Nah we'll adapt like we always do
>The fuck is a couple degrees? Fuck all. A new beach where the Netherlands is. Lovely jubbly.

Tens, maybe hundreds, of millions of people are going to die you goddamn scumbag.

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>>2483521
>Which entrepreneurs contribute to more than anyone else, because they pay more tax than anyone else.
And cutting their taxes doesn't actually inspire them to create meaningful, lasting contributions to the economy.
>I think Bill Gates once said that he's paid more money to US federal government than anyone else in history
and still probably pays a smaller portion of his overall wealth than his secretary.
>I'd like to see you defend this point because it's utter bullshit
see>>2483149

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Only Rand could be this retarded to make selfishness a spook

>>2483650
Good, too many people anyway, and hopefully those that die will be in Africa where they're breeding far too much.

>>2483673
>turns out the ancap is in full Fuck you, got mine beneath all his meaningless rheortic
Not even suprised desu

>>2483651
>And cutting their taxes doesn't actually inspire them to create meaningful, lasting contributions to the economy.
Where did I say we should cut their taxes

Anyway none of you are answering my question, none of you at all

As I said here: >>2480575
>When I ask the question "is objectivism the best moral philosophy", what I mean is, is it the best moral philosophy for oneself?

That's what I'm asking. Nobody is offering any answers, or attempts to answer that question. Forget about "the greater good", which is a stupid fucking argument to have anyway. I don't care what serves the greater good. That's not my concern. I don't give a fuck how you define the greater good, because I don't care about the greater good.

My question is, for oneself, is objectivism a good philosophy to embrace?

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>>2483682
I'm not ancap but yeah basically

Lol why wouldn't you do everything that's in your interest

I don't understand you

>>2483682
That's the root of their pitiful ideology

>>2483693
He spent too much time ITT talking about how ancapism is great for everyone

Plus FYGM isn't just about self interest

>>2483652
>The state rests on the slavery of labour. If labour becomes free, the state is lost.

And then somebody else will take power. Power vacuum nigga.

Whether it's Lenin and the Bolsheviks forming the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic, or whether it's some warlord in Angola seizing the country, it doesn't matter; SOMEBODY will take charge.

>>2483688
>Anyway none of you are answering my question, none of you at all
it's because your question supposes that every person is a clone of you (or that every person is the same)
what you want does not have to be what I want
in this case it's definitely not what I want

>>2483682
Yup. At its core it is a justification for crass, narrow minded selfishness

>>2483699
>people richer than he will ever be are pitiful
Heh heh heh.

>>2483709
>He spent too much time ITT talking about how ancapism is great for everyone
Who did? I'm OP, and I'm who you responded to; I'm saying I'm not ancap because I'm not

Pretty sure objectivism =/= ancap

And as I've said about a billion fucking times I don't give a fuck what's good for "everybody"

My question is whether it's good for ONESELF.

>>2483716
I didn't say "for me", I said "for oneself".

So you're saying you don't want to succeed in life? Lol fag :D

>>2483711
Not if everyone was armed and ready to prevent such a takeover...

Plus any collective effort to rule and conquer also relies on 'oppressed' labour.

>>2483729
Sorry this isn't the LGBT board. If you want to take dicks in your ass, which it seems you do, then I suggest you go there.

>>>/lgbt/

>>2483731
>I didn't say "for me", I said "for oneself".
>So you're saying you don't want to succeed in life? Lol fag :D
then no, objectivism isn't the best philosophy for oneself
not because I "don't want to succeed" lol, but because I do not want society to degrade to dystopian levels which is, in my opinion, the inevitable result of objectivism
clear enough?

>>2482543
>Yes it has. Anarcho-capitalism, which is what you're thinking of, is not the same as laissez faire economics. Laissez faire economics is not committed to the removal of ALL government interference. Stop being a fucking idiot.
examples?

>>2483731
And the people ITT points out that when everyone looks for out for 'oneself' it sucks for everyone

But since you are looking out yourself, tell me are you against statehood and private property? Why respect the fictional rules of other people when they are not in your self interest?

>>2483736
>Not if everyone was armed and ready to prevent such a takeover...
If everybody was armed then there may or may not be a bloody battle, after which the conclusion will be the same, which is that somebody will emerge as a leader.

>Plus any collective effort to rule and conquer also relies on 'oppressed' labour.
Then all countries have always had """oppressed labour""" and always will, because countries will always have leaders.

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>>2483748
>projecting his own insecurities this hard
thanks for proving my point, cupcake

>>2483750
You think society will collapse based on how you, THE ONE PERSON THAT YOU ARE, live your life?

Can you explain to me how that works?

I am guessing that you think I'm asking whether EVERYBODY should be objectivist, but as I've said over and over and over and over and over again, that's not what I'm saying.

>>2483754
Fuck off

>>2483761
>And the people ITT points out that when everyone looks for out for 'oneself' it sucks for everyone
I'm not asking about whether EVERYBODY should be objectivist

I'm asking whether ONESELF should be objectivist

You fucking idiot

How many fucking times have I said this?

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>>2483766
If you have emotional hang-ups about being "selfish" then you're a fag

Fuck off to the fag board

>>>/lgbt/

>>2483770
no, I think that society will collapse if objectivism gets a firm hold in it
I'm not talking about joe the plumber, but joe the senator and joe the congressman

>>2483785
OK, I see this:
>>2483780
>I'm not asking about whether EVERYBODY should be objectivist
>I'm asking whether ONESELF should be objectivist

so to answer this: objectivism is shit for me personally because it doesn't value altruism at all and I do

>>2483762
Leader of what? Just because people can unite to fight off an aggressor doesn't mean they can't disband after they win.

>always have
>always will
Not if as Striner said, the labourers stop their labour

>>2483780
>>>2483731
>My question is whether it's good for ONESELF.
Don't suddenly move the goalpost. Plus you didn't answer the second question

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>>2480551
I actually like other people sometimes so its a pretty bad moral code to live by.

>>2483785
That's not a reason why you shouldn't be an objectivist. You don't have to tell anybody what you think. You don't have to spread these ideas. Just keep them to yourself. And you'll reap the rewards. Why wouldn't you do that? Why wouldn't you reap the rewards?

>>2483793
But altruism is for fags, why do you value altruism when it doesn't bring you any benefit?

>>2483803
>Leader of what?
Any country where the labour force decides to rebel or whatever childish buffoonery they choose to engage in

>Just because people can unite to fight off an aggressor doesn't mean they can't disband after they win.
.............then someone will replace them
P O W E R
V A C U U M

>Not if as Striner said, the labourers stop their labour
They'll starve while others (those who DO work) survive

>Don't suddenly move the goalpost
Second post of this thread: >>2480575
>I don't see the purpose of ethics being "maximise the good throughout the world". I.e. I'm not a utilitarian.
>So when I ask the question "is objectivism the best moral philosophy", what I mean is, is it the best moral philosophy for oneself?

Next time, read the thread.

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>>2483804
Rex Tillerson says Atlas Shrugged is his favourite book. Do you think Rex Tillerson doesn't like other people? I'd say he must like other people to a certain degree, in order to form a business with other people, and co-operate with them enough to earn lots of money!

But if you think he doesn't like other people, I doubt he gives a shit, because he's worth $245 million dollars and you aren't.

:^)

>>2483861
>why do you value altruism when it doesn't bring you any benefit?
because I believe that altruism is the only way to build a quality society and doing that would both please me and benefit me

>>2483902
So clearly you value things that benefit you?

Then you should be selfish, because that will benefit you MUCH, MUCH MORE than being altruistic. Altruism brings you precisely fuck all.

Also I completely reject your idea that societies are founded on altruism. Societies are founded on selfishness. That's what makes capitalism work. Everybody has a stake in society.

If people are too selfless then their society comes under immense strain, and eventually collapse; look at Sweden where they are suffering increased crime (particularly sex assault, and also gang crime like vandalism and murders) because they have taken in more migrants than they can feasibly handle. They haven't been able to integrate these migrants because they've arrived in such large numbers, and many are unskilled, and don't know the language, so instead of getting jobs, they from criminal gangs instead.

>>2483919
no, altruism brings YOU fuck all
it brings me satisfaction and pleasure

>>2483861
>.............then someone will replace them
And the anarchists can ignore their authority or fight against it? The 'power vaccum' is moot when all anarchists share that power evenly

>They'll starve while others (those who DO work) survive
That's why Striner advocated all of them to deny their labour. Duhhhhh
Even if some did the effects are atill potent. Just yesterday and 100 years, women workers denied their labour and kick started the Russian revolution

>Next time, read the thread
I did and I pointed out that it sucks for everyone including you. I didn't even make it about utilitarianism, you just assume it to be so. The post I replied to literally said

>>My question is whether it's good for ONESELF.

And you are still ignoring my second question

>>2480551
Consider this: Atlas is the chief of a defeated army. When the defeated and oppressed overthrow those who are philandering at the expense of their labours, - what happens?

Who is Atlas? Atlas can only be a tragic figure.

>>2483875
What does working with other people have anything to do with liking them? You cant even work with other people you dont like? Are you some kind of retard?

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>>2483934
Why? And besides, those things are not of any material benefit.

Will altruism help you provide for yourself? Will altruism help you attract a partner? Will altruism help you provide for a family? Will altruism provide an enjoyable lifestyle for you and your family?

I don't think it will, but selfishness will.

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>>2483937
>And the anarchists can ignore their authority or fight against it?
Ignoring it doesn't matter when the authority effectively exists (like it does now, and has done in every country throughout human history)

I.e. if they displease the rulers of the country (in the West this takes the form of breaking laws; in other parts of the world it just takes the form of doing whatever angers those with power) then they'll be arrested/maimed/killed

>The 'power vaccum' is moot when all anarchists share that power evenly
If a bunch of anarchists ever seized control of a country (which they never will) then there will be a scramble for power and someone will emerge the victor.

This is especially true if you are seriously trying to suggest that an entire country could be composed entirely of anarchists, which is an idea so hilarious that my sides have passed into another dimension.

>>2483976
what you're doing right now is moving the goalposts
your original question was if it's good for oneself, not if it allows you to obtain the most amount of material wealth
fuck off you tiresome cunt

>>2483937
>That's why Striner advocated all of them to deny their labour. Duhhhhh
That will genuinely never happen. But even if it did, and ALL workers in a country banded together, skived off work, and tried to attempt some sort of Russian revolution smashing of the state, then they would end up doing exactly what the Bolsheviks did; form their own state where they're in control.

Or if they didn't, then someone else would come in and seize power.

Try and give me an example of a country that has ever been anarchist if you can; perhaps there are indeed some examples of countries without *government*, per se, but I guarantee you that those countries still had a social hierarchy, with dominant leaders at the top who effectively rule the country.

>second question
Remind me.

>>2483976
NTG, but, be it directly or indirectly, altruism can be of assistance in all those endeavors - and indeed, some of them more or less require it to be exercised to one degree or another.

I mean you can make that old tired argument that altruism is ultimately a selfish act, but you can't say the act itself is without its uses, materialistic or otherwise.

>>2484001
I wont deny that the anarchists might lose in their war against the state but ignoring laws is always the first step.

>there will be a scramble for power and someone will emerge the victor.
No there won't? Why would anarchists do that? Nor did I suggest there would a country of anarchists, but a group of anarchists occupying some land

Still ignoring my question on why you are respecting property rights when it is not in your interest

>>2484021
Whether it can happen doesn't diminish what he said. But the Russian people did smash the old state by denying their labour, but they didn't deny their labour to the new state, hence it wasn't smashed. The subsequent government were better than Imperial Russia anyway.

What purpose would giving you an example have? You doubted my point that
>The state rests on the slavery of labour. If labour becomes free, the state is lost.
And you are trying to move the goalposts by saying anarchism can't work.

>>2480891
Ayn Rand was a hollywood screenwriter and got We the Living and The Fountain Head on screen. If Nozick had made a movie, he'd be more popular than Rand.

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No

>>2480575
>
I'm a psychological egoist - I believe everybody does what they do out of selfishness. Yes, even a soldier who jumps on a grenade to save his troop (he has internalised a sense of honour, and honour is what he's chasing). It doesn't make sense for any organism, or human, to not act in their own interest. People are only ever selfless when they have selfish reasons to do so.
Surely there are ways to describe psychological egoism that are non-circular, so how come almost every person that holds the view spouts circular crap like this?

>>2484119
We're independent, unlike you dumb goyim.

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>>2484198
>I matter more than my family, my country and race
It's people like you (selfish anarchist hedonists) who enable the enslavement of the world and the destruction of the white race, you don't get to call anyone dumb you pariah

>>2482249
samefag btfo

>>2480551
If "best" includes "even remotely functional" then no.

>>2480575
>I believe everybody does what they do out of selfishness
That is not an Ibkectivist argument. Rand didn't say that people always acted accordingly to their self interest, but that they should, and they needed to use their reason to understand what was in their self interest.

The entire fact that humans, unlike other animals, can act against their instincts is what she thought made us unique in the world.

>>2483976
>doesn't understand the concept of charity feeling good
I can help you out here! You are a psychopath, which means you are lacking in empathy or remorse.

In standard humans, seeing someone else be happy/sad can make you feel happy/sad too, especially if you are the one who made them feel happy/sad.

>>2480551
yes

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>>2484119

Jews control both ends of the political spectrum. They win no matter what

>>2483553
>Bell Labs
>Bell Labs, one of the most important R&D laboratories in history (along with Xerox Parc), emerged from a deal between AT&T and government. Government asked that AT&T return the favor for its government granted monopoly status by reinvesting its profits into important innovations, to be co-financed publicly. It did, and Bell Labs was born by that healthy tension. It is precisely this kind of pressure on companies that benefit from public subsidies and/or investments that we are in desperate need of today, radically changing the nature of our current innovation ‘eco-systems’.
Thanks for proving my point.

>>2483731
>And as I've said about a billion fucking times I don't give a fuck what's good for "everybody"
>My question is whether it's good for ONESELF.
Not getting hung by your entrails by an angry mob is also good for oneself.

>>2483919
>Societies are founded on selfishness.
Kek.

is this that new detective book i herd aboot?
"Mary Sue and the Mystery of Why I am not gonna read all those 645,000 words you ass-dope"?

>>2480551
it's not moral in the slightest

>>2488259

care to explain?

>>2484218
>I matter more than my [spook], my [spook] and [spook]

>It's people like you ([buzzward [buzzword] [buzzword]) who enable the [meme] of the [ridiculous exaggeration] and the [meme] of the [spook], you don't get to call anyone dumb you [nonsensical insult]

Really made me think........