Gnosticism

>>2223169
This is about the style and level of quality you'll get from the board (unless ape of Thoth comes here) so i'll save you the trouble. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/UsefulNotes/Gnosticism

>>2223184
Do you think I'd get a better answer going to /x/ and asking ape?

>>2223217
I don't frequent /x/ too often so I wouldn't know. Ape and a couple of other guys are pretty good with religious doctrine. The rest is rather "meh"

Gnosticism is the belief that the god of the bible is a false god, a demiurge who arrogantly forces people to worship him even though he did not actually create the world, and was thrown out of the superior heaven

It is also the belief that jesus taught of the true creator, and that he was murdered for this reason, and not because of some grand plan, and that you can only know the true creator through intense meditation, which gnostic mysteries and writings are intended to induce

>>2223233
gnosticism coming from gnosis, to know, meaning to know the truth and the true creator

>>2223169
bad god vs good god, they fight eachother through the control of souls, which the good god created and the bad god tries to snatch them away
good god created heavens, evil good created hell - this world. You can only escape hell by being virtuous and refusing the bad god's temptations. Everything material is evil, human happiness is evil, as it leads you to enjoy the material world. You need to detach yourself and then after death you return to the good god, of whom Jesus was the messanger and creation (son), otherwise you stay here forever reincarnating and suffering. Also - our current population boom would indicate that the devil is more successful in the battle, even more souls are being entrapped by our sin.

>>2223233
Honestly between this version and the blatant scheming and naked abuse of power of the early catholic church, I'm more likely to believe this.

>>2223184
I just realized that their idea of the creation really sounds like the one from Tolkien in the Silmarilion
That random Aeon that decides to rebel gave me that melkor vibe

>>2223247
I read Tolkien may have been slightly influenced by Gnosticism.

>>2223243
Huh, so would that mean the Gnosticism is inherently anti-natalist since they see our current materialistic world as the Demiurge's Hell?

>>2223254
Indeed. The Cathars never practised vaginal sex, as it would entrap more souls. One of the reason why they got rekt by the catholics. But I think to save all of us and not just selfishly the few enlightened, we would need to introduce a policy of natalist anti-natalism. Meaning outbeeding everyone and teaching the gospels to our offspring, once the whole world believes in the gnosis, we would stop breeding and escape the earthly cycle forever. So basically weakening our god, but at the end striking a defeating blow to the devil.

>>2223251
Yeah i just went further down and it is mentionned in the "exemples in popular culture"
But it wouldn't surprise me if he got into it somehow, Gnotiscism has a Catholic branch if i recall well

>>2223254
yes

gnostics were encouraged not to breed historically as it was considered the propagation of evil

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>>2223244
daily reminder

>>2223290
>But I think to save all of us and not just selfishly the few enlightened, we would need to introduce a policy of natalist anti-natalism. Meaning outbeeding everyone and teaching the gospels to our offspring, once the whole world believes in the gnosis, we would stop breeding and escape the earthly cycle forever. So basically weakening our god, but at the end striking a defeating blow to the devil.

Sounds legit

>>2223243

Not Gnosticism.
You just described Manicheanism.

>>2223254
These probably sounds weird to us because reproducing is one of our primordial instincts. If you accept the world is one we need to transcend it isn't that much of a stretch that having children isn't a necessity.

>>2223290
>>2223298
Interesting, thanks for answering my questions. I didn't realize Gnosticism was so nihilistic.

>>2223414
But wouldn't you want to create more souls to transcend?

>>2223427
wait are souls created or pre-existant?

>>2223427

Rejecting the material world doesn't mean it's nihilistic. Learn what words mean before you use them.

>>2223427
>But wouldn't you want to create more souls to transcend?
No because transcendence is hard work that isn't easily accomplished if your busy taking care of a wife and children. Also consider salvation is hardly universal in this case. If your one of the blessed ones who knows how to go about it, your in the minority. most people won't even come close. No guarantee exist your children would.

>>2223432
I'm not sure, but from what I gathered from the link posted it didn't seem like they were pre-existant.

>>2223434
Having children isn't a strictly materialistic endeavor if human consciousness has a spiritual component.

>>2223436
There's not really any guarantee that your children will go to heaven in any sect of Christianity though, is there? Is that really a reason to not have them? Even with a strictly materialistic view of the world, there's no guarantee your children won't come out physically or mentally ill. To completely abstain from procreation because you're afraid that they won't live up to certain expectations seems pessimistic and ultimately nihilistic.

>>2223169

Heresy.

It isn't so different from protestantism in that sense.

>>2223251

if so, he was way more influenced by Catholicism and the Norse mythos.

>>2223471
>There's not really any guarantee that your children will go to heaven in any sect of Christianity though, is there? Is that really a reason to not have them? Even with a strictly materialistic view of the world, there's no guarantee your children won't come out physically or mentally ill. To completely abstain from procreation because you're afraid that they won't live up to certain expectations seems pessimistic and ultimately nihilistic.
In the gnostic sense kids serve no function. Its about you and what you do. Not what other people do.

>>2223471

>nihilistic

You keep using this word like you have something to prove.
Please explain how a religion that professes a doctrine of attainable salvation is "ultimately nihilistic."

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>>2223474
t. archon

>>2223486
But aren't you giving more souls the chance to escape the Demiurge. which would be the sort of Cosmic good that Gnosticism supports?

>>2223505
When I made this thread I did have a genuine curiosity. I guess from what little I had seen about Gnosticism before, I assumed it had more pagan influences and wasn't so...Christian. I just have a hard time seeing any ideology that professes anti-natalism as anything but nihilistic.

>>2223535
>But aren't you giving more souls the chance to escape the Demiurge.
No, your adding more pain to a flawed creation like other poster said.

>>2223409
Well, Manicheanism is a gnostic movement, but you probably meant the original Christian gnostics. And yes - in my opinion there's a lot of crap, that has no justification in the gospels, nor anywhere else, it's like overdoing sauce on an already good meal. Blabberings about some personna of Sophia or whatever, some more demi-deities, spirits and similar cosmological nonsense which Manicheans also have. It's like they're just making shit up to be able to write more and so it would seem more complex. What I was describing was more of my personal mix of beliefs, I only categorize myself as a gnostic, not necessarilly the same as the ancient Christian gnostics or the Manicheans.

>>2223543
But you're giving them the chance to escape the Demiurge, a chance that they wouldn't have otherwise. It seems like you want to deny enlightenment to the few who could attain it because most won't be able to.

>>2223580
Why would create something just to give it the chance? Your not denying enlightenment to someone who doesn't exist.

"Gnostics" generally deny the temporal aspect of Christ, that he is a man.

Conversely, the Arians denied that he is God.

Catholics recognize both aspects of his being.

>>2223601
No, but you're limiting how many enlightened spirits can come into existence, wouldn't you want as many as possible?

>>2223612
double think is not a virtue

>>2223612
What is the theology behind Arianism?

>>2223642
No. What's with the obsession with quantity?

>>2223666

>arbitrary delimitation of the divine aspect is virtue

get thee hence

>>>/out/

>>2223675

I don't know, lots of Germans liked it in the waning days of the WRE.

>>2223601
You're not creating souls when you breed, you're only entrapping them into the demiurge's creation. But if you do correctly as I already said in >>2223290 this could be turned to our advantage and used to defeat the devil once and for all.

>>2223675
Jesus is the creation of God, thus his son - but he is not God himself. God's only one. So no pagan trio.

>>2223715

>the trinity is pagan

sure kid

>>2223683
Why would the primordial consciousness create the Aeons in the first place if quantity doesn't matter? Why not just stick with a single consciousness?

>>2223751

>implying there is more than just a single consciousness

There's a lot that's autistic about your posts.
First of all the Aeons aren't created they are emanations of the Pleroma.

Asking questions is ok but you have this weird demanding assumption that the ultimate mysteries of Gnostic dogma must submit themselves to anthropomorphizing utilitarian motives or something.

>>2223807
I'm just going off of the link >>2223184 If any of my assumptions about Gnosticism are wrong it's because the information in that link is wrong.

I thought that Gnosticism would be more of a middle point between paganism and Christianity. I guess I'm realizing that it is actually more Christian than any mainstream sects, which is exactly why it died out in the first place. Would you happen to know of any branches of Christianity that are more of what I'm looking for, sort of a middle-ground syncretism between paganism and Christianity?

>>2223843

I don't know why you keep reiterating that Gnosticism should be pagan. I also don't know what "more Christian" means.

You seem to be adverse to Christianity but you also are looking for a sect that is semi-Christian. I don't know what you're looking for.

The literal actual middle-ground between paganism and Christianity were the Hebrews.

>>2223843

>middle-ground syncretism between paganism and Christianity

Catholicism lel

>>2223897
Pretty much this, they worship Mary as some sort of a demi-god almost equal to Jesus (not based anywhere in the Bible, Jesus even said the exact opposite), then using the saints as mediators, which serve as some sort of semi-prophet-deities - ancestor worship. It's all a very messed up bastardized version of Christianity.

>>2223870
I am adverse to a lot of the concepts behind Christianity. I don't think suffering and pain are good by any means, but I think they're necessary to fostering a great spirit and that seeking to escape them by detachment from the material world is ultimately self-defeating. I guess what I really like about Christianity is the monotheism and the idea of a divine providence, but I don't agree with the Christian interpretation of what that divine providence actually is.

>>2223897
>>2223946
Heh, I know that Catholic traditions are heavily influenced by pre-Christian paganism, but is there a sect that's even more pagan?

>>2223958
early nordic christianity I think maybe, they kinda just added jesus to the viking pantheon

>>2223958

Everything you wrote about suffering and pain is like opposite world. Christianity isn't adverse to suffering and pain. The Anchorites saw it as purifying, and to a less extreme extent so do modern Protestants. The entire doctrine of Christianity is built upon the suffering of Jesus Christ.
If anything you have it totally backwards. The sects of Christianity that did renounce the material world embraced pain and shunned pleasure.

>>2223989
Jesus was in many ways a figure similar to Buddha, in that they both wanted to detach from all feelings physical and emotional. Jesus was making himself an example to the poor and suffering as a way for them to negate their suffering via passivity. It's a complete denial of life both material and spiritual.

>>2223247
>>2223251
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rZ3N3upJwU

>>2223946
>the people who invented Christianity aren't true Christians
>but retarded watered down plebs like Lutheranism and Puritanism are
Or Maybe read the early church fathers and realize Christianity always was about the substance which retards consider to be "pagan" from the beginning and accept this isn't a bad thing?

>>2224251
Protestants are the worst

>>2224251
>The Church Fathers supersede Jesus
Yeah no. Protestantism is closer to the literal teachings of Jesus, but that doesn't make it better. The best part of Catholicism is the pagan syncretism within it.

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>>2223519

Gnosticism is retarded, if you read it it starts going into some autistic fanfiction about some woman named Sophia

total herecy

>>2223843
>middle point between paganism and Christianity.
Paganism and Neo-Platoism with a Christian face or mythos is a better description.

>more Christian than any mainstream sects
Gnosticism has always been the least 'christian' sect in the sense it is fundamentally opposed to other sects


>>2225241
t. triggered archon

>>2225343
if gnosticism had merit then there would be evidence in the canonical scriptures that at LEAST allude to the autistic ones that go on about some woman named sophia

>>2225604
Sophia is found in Proverbs, Psalms, Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes, Book of Wisdom, Wisdom of Sirach, and to some extent Baruch.

>>2225610
BTFO

>autistic anon thinks its a woman and not a personification of divine wisdom