would operation Barbarossa be a success if germany had never

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>>2156624
no, the Germans lost the war in '43 and they knew it

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>>2156624

>>2156624

>blitzkrieg their way to Moscow
>be held off
>winter comes
>nazis freeze (literally) and lose their initial upper hand and are never able to recover it.

thats basically what happened. Also Hitler being a fucking retard and letting his army not retreat and lose at Stalingrad, their actual one chance at turning it all around, simply because"hurr no retreat! unsethes katana!"

>>2156634
To assert what rifle that is, is nonsense given how extremely similar they look, I could easily as well claim the rifles one of the many German variants, that's the beauty of shitty detailed pictures


So that's one blatant falsehood, but Yugoslav uniforms? What, the Germans had picture perfect supply lines and didn't wear what they could?

Also, the SS used Yugoslav auxiliaries, if it was an SS trained partisan, there wouldn't be a difference

>>2156634
>mauser CLEARLY matches rifle in picture
>confuses glorious mauser with shitty slavshit

What fucking liberal nogun cuck made this shit

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>>2156634
Schutzpolizei uniform

fuck off stormfag

>>2156634
This is such a stupid picture.

>typical SS combat uniforms
Now please show me typical Einsatzgruppen uniforms. And considering this is somewhere in Ukraine it's very likely that those are some local soldiers working for the Germans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Auxiliary_Police

>Professor Alexander Statiev of the Canadian University of Waterloo writes that Ukrainian Auxiliary Police were the major perpetrator of the Holocaust on Soviet territories based on native origins, and those police units participated in the extermination of 150,000 Jews in the area of Volhynia alone.[21]

>>2156624
They should have transformed the Soviet Union into numerous independent countries. I'm sure at least Ukrainians would have joined them.

>>2156624
Manstein seems to think so in his memoirs. But then again he has a lot of incentive to say "i dindu nuffin it was hitler's dumb orders" so that that with a grain of salt.

What CAN be said though, is that the Nazis were very popular in the Ukraine and many other areas when they first """""libertated""""" those regions from the Soviets. They were given bread and salt by Ukrainian women for example. There was a lot of territory that didn't want to be Soviet that may have fought for the Germans much like the Finns did.
Whether that would have turned the tide is debatable. Also, ripping away a huge chunk of the Soviet breadbasket would have made the Russian supply problems much worse, so there's that.

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>>2156624
>>2156628
>>2156637
except Hitler was exactly right, and his plan worked to perfection.

Literally the only reason Russian people physically exist is because of American "lend-lease"

without lend-lease literally saving the Russian "species", that entire region, and people would be a brief lesson in German childrens school books.

if left totally to their own devices, without a single solitary form of aid from the US or some outside interference like lend-lease, the soviet union and the core of boleshevism would have been extinguished like a small match in a hurricane during the outset of Barbarosa. The Russians were defeated, Ukraine was captured and had it not been for American Lend-lease shipments totaling In total, the U.S. deliveries through Lend-Lease amounted to $11 billion in materials: over 400,000 jeeps and trucks; 12,000 armored vehicles (including 7,000 tanks, about 1,386[37] of which were M3 Lees and 4,102 M4 Shermans);[38] 11,400 aircraft (4,719 of which were Bell P-39 Airacobras)[39] and 1.75 million tons of food

Joseph Stalin, during the Tehran Conference in 1943, acknowledged publicly the importance of American efforts during a dinner at the conference: "Without American production the United Nations [the Allies] could never have won the war.

you sound like a completely un-educated IDIOT when you spew the "HURR HITLER was a bad planner". He defeated the entire west at Dunkirk, and the Soviets before Lend lease artificially supported their effort. He was the Most masterful war planner of all time.

>>2156647
>>confuses glorious mauser with shitty slavshit
The M24 is a Mauser, a re-barrelled G98. Thats probably the funniest thing about that picture.
>>2156675
>I'm sure at least Ukrainians would have joined them.
The Germans only used Ukrainians once they resized they were not going to win. The entire point of Barbarossa was to get dat living space.

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>nazis genocidal policy's

You mean like recruiting ethnic minorities as well as Russians to the cause of overthrowing the Soviets?

Is "Communist" suddenly an ethnicity?

I thought Stalin vetoed political groups from being considered targets of genocide when the United Nations defined the term because he didn't want Communism to be declared an inherently genocidal ideology for wanting to liquidate the capitalist class kek

>>2156716
>recruiting ethnic minorities
Starting during mid 1943. And in large numbers from 1944.
They became liberators once they realised they wouldn't be conquerors.

>>2156716
I think he meant things like destroying villages and killing everyone inside for allegedly helping the partisans.
>After the capture of Lviv, a highly contentious and strategically important city with a significant Ukrainian minority, OUN leaders proclaimed a new Ukrainian State on June 30, 1941 and were simultaneously encouraging loyalty to the new regime, in hope that they would be supported by the Germans.
>OUN initially carried out attacks on Polish villages, trying to exterminate Polish populations or expel Polish enclaves from what the OUN fighters perceived as Ukrainian territory.[6] When OUN help was no longer needed, its leaders were imprisoned, and many members were summarily executed.

>>2156700
>during the outset of Barbarosa
You might wan't to look up deliveries by year.
During 1941 they it was a very small amount sent (and mostly from England; Matilda tanks, Hurricanes, etc).
US deliveries were not significant until midway through 1943.

>>2156624
Germany ruled by normal right-wing monarchist would be more successful than Hitler's shitcountry.

>>2156700
>He was the Most masterful war planner of all time.
also he lost

>>2156716
>You mean like recruiting ethnic minorities as well as Russians to the cause of overthrowing the Soviets?
The Russian Free Army was a propaganda lie that didn't actually exist until something like late 1944. Up until then any Soviet that defected to join it just got sent to a concentration camp to die.

>>2156700
>defeated the entire west at Dunkirk

obviously not

he beat them soundly, but failed to finish them and their ragged fleet at Dunkirk.

>>2156745
>LITERALLY FAILED TO DESTROY THE BRITISH ARMY BECAUSE OF FISHING BOATS

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>>2156738
lol "lost". Just compared to Russia Alone, if Germany was a person, He came into Russia's home, killed 5 of his family of 7, left the Grandfather alive and one the youngest son, moments before Germany was Shot and critically wounded by the Police, and survived to be sent to trial. But yes "lost"

>>2156634
Hi! Did you get lost? This isn't /pol/

>>2156754
>threw 14 year olds into combat because the army was getting raped so hard by the Soviets
>decades of post-war occupation
>didn't lose

>>2156754

He lost the Battle of Brittain aswell.

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>>2156745
He literally Voluntarily left them to escape in humiliation, rather than slaughter. Hitler had forsight into the Post-War world, and desired a climate where the West could be a party whom with he could create the new world order, lead by a victorious Germany. He sought no slaughter of White nations or powers, and proffessed immense respect for their people and nations.

>>2156754
Remind me, who's the mayor of Konigsberg, again? How's the weather in Silesia and Pomerania?

>>2156760
>because the army was getting raped so hard by the Soviets
Thats not the only thing that was raped by the Soviets.

>>2156764
>just ignore the London Blitz, that was just him trying to air-deliver respect

>>2156764
>>>/lgbt/

>>2156764
>h-he let them out on purpose! h-honest!

The sad part is that despite your bait, stormfags really do believe this.

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>>2156769
literally "terror" bombing designed to induce surrender, NOT annihilation. how old are you? You have a highschoolers logic and reasoning skill set.

>>2156776
So he WAS trying to slaughter British civilians, then?

>>2156754
>war aims not achieved
>signs surrender agreement
>government ceases to exist
>territory is split in half and both halves are occupied for decades by former enemies

In what bizarre universe do you live in where this doesn't constitute a loss?

>This avatar fagging as whore tried to defend Hitler """""Grand Strategies""""""
Abandon thread everyone.

>>2156700
>you sound like a completely un-educated IDIOT when you spew the "HURR HITLER was a bad planner"
this, it's one of the worst anti-history memes of all time

I took a class on Nazi Germany leading up to the war and holy fucking shit Hitler was a god damned political genius. And this is without hyperbole. He played the world like a fucking fiddle and got everything he wanted exactly how he planned to. Not just the sumemeland but the moment he reached power he knew exactly what buttons to push on France and Britain while also handling Spain and Italy juggled behind his back. It was amazing to read.

>>2156796
It's a shame it all fell to pieces after 1939, then.

>>2156624
I don't think the mass murder of Jews impaired the success of the campaign, in fact some aspects of the anti-Jewish policies were popular with the local peoples.

You might be hinting at an alleged "Slav genocide", which is however a product of post-war Soviet propaganda that prevails in pop-history to this day

>>2156800
I didn't know 1939 and 1942 were the same year, huh

>>2156796
>invade Poland after Britain and France repeatedly say that they'll declare war on you if you do
>they declare war
>ignore all intelligence estimates about the Russian military and invade that shit anyway
>ignore all intelligence estimates about American production capability and declare war on them anyway
>master planner

You really need to distinguish pre-1939 Hitler from post.

>>2156806
>>ignore all intelligence estimates about American production capability and declare war on them anyway
this is it, he won the rest

beat Britain, France, and Russia single handedly. Like avatar faggot anon already said, American production saved Russia and American Soldiers saved the west

>>2156643
But the assertion that its yugoslav ss nd not normal ss is correct.

>>2156803

Not him, but 1939 created the situation that led to his downfall, not 1942. For starters, Hitler rather badly miscalculated the response of France and Britain in regard to his actions in Poland. He certainly didn't expect an easy win in France, without which he's in really deep shit.

He has no means of striking at Britain critically and which has a larger economy (if you count its colonies) to wage a prolonged war against him, to say nothing of the allies it could and eventually did mobilize against Germany. He had already raised his threat profile through his broken treaties and harsh rhetoric that any war against him wouldn't be a quick, limited war in which his operational/tactical strenghts could be converted into political gains.

1939 was a colossal fucking misstep.

>>2156808
Let's be real for a second.

Even without America entering the war (and that's a big thing to assume even without Pearl Harbor,) the odds of successfully pushing past the Urals and finishing Barbarossa decisively were slim to none.

Bonus points for abusing all of the subject peoples that would gladly have joined the fight against communism.

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>>2156766

>implying you didn't deserve it

USSR

>10 million women raped by the Wehrmacht

>20 million civilian's killed by the Germans

Germany

>maybe .5 rapes and even thats guesswork

>2 million dead German civilians from all causes throughout the war

>We are the Master race! We will wipe out the inferior races, all will be killed to make room for lebensraum!

>getting destroyed

>muh..muh..muh slavic devils! Eternal Anglo!!!

Germans are the true Snow Niggers.

>>2156803
It started crumbling when he fucked up the declaration of war on Poland. It might not have started coming down hard until after Stalingrad, but the portents were there right at the start of the war.

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>>2156808

>Beat Britain

When?

>France,

Something he wasn't sure he could do and certainly hadn't planned on.

>Russia

>Like avatar faggot anon already said, American production saved Russia and American Soldiers saved the west

Pic related. American production only started arriving en masse after the German offensive stalled. At best, Germany could get a stalemate, not an outright win.

Hitler repeatedly made the mistake Staline didn't, which is to let people that know better than you lead.
Hitler didn't win against France, Guderian did

>>2156813
Really? Wasnt the sixth army pretty damn close to the vulga? If not for rubble blocking tanks, theyd have secured the city.

I dont think stopping genocide would be a big differance though, because the thefts from the genocide were quite profitable iirc.

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>>2156766

>>2156816

>muh 100 gorillion tortured soviets
>"I know it from wikipedia!"

>>2156829

Not him, but yes, they were close to the Volga at a single point.

>If not for rubble blocking tanks, theyd have secured the city.

This, however, is completely untrue. The 6th army (as well as most of the rest of AGB) had already been pretty badly depleted just in the open end fighting around the Don basin, nevermind the city itself, where they stalled for literal months before the counterattacks. Tanks, by the way, do very poorly in urban environments, Stalingrad's street fighting was mostly infantry and artillery mixing it up, not airpower.

>>2156836

>muh evil jewish conspiracy to kill 100 gorillion aryans!

>I know it from [insert shitty neo-nazi blog]!

>>2156829
Thefts from the genocide against Jews were profitable. Jews have shit.

Eastern Europeans don't have shit.

And if said Eastern Europeans happen to be from Ukraine or the Baltics, they hate the USSR even more than Germany does.

Also, Stalin got most of his factories east of the Urals. The Wehrmacht stalled outside of Moscow long before US aid came along, so unless the Germans could somehow make it to the Caucasus oil fields, it would be extremely difficult for German logistics to sustain a campaign to finish the war.

Not to mention Lend-Lease started long before the US officially entered the war.

>>2156837
Poorly compared too open fields maybe. Didnt tanks play a key role in pushing into cities on the western front?

>>2156848

No, just poorly in general. Like, if you want to look into Stalingrad in particular, Chuikov's memoirs talk about how he would order the tanks he got disassembled, stick the main guns in windows and other good vantage points, because quite frankly, the disassembled guns were more useful to him than intact tanks. Urban environments rob armor of the mobility that make them useful, and with combat ranges shrunk way down,and much more fire coming around vertically, tanks are vulnerable to all sorts of stuff that they wouldn't have to worry about otherwise.

> Didnt tanks play a key role in pushing into cities on the western front?

I'm unaware of tanks clearing opposition in urban centers in the 1940 war in France, although I suppose it might have happened somewhere, especially as you had the 'floating' unsupported breakthrough post-Sedan, but there was really very little organized resistance behind the main line anyway. If you're talking later war, no, I can't think of a single example where armor was anything more than third fiddle in urban combat, and was usually kept well clear.

>>2156844
Nice strawman

>>2156624
Personally I'd rather both the nazis and the commies get destroyed.

Talk about destroying Europe

>>2156829
>Really? Wasnt the sixth army pretty damn close to the vulga?

Most of the Sixth Army wasn't even in the city, the Stalingrad battlefield was massive.

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>>2156906

forgot pic

>>2156911
>letting romanians defend your supply lines

>>2156944
>know that they probably were the weakest part of your line if the Soviets attack in strength
>don't reinforce them

it's his own fault

>>2156944
>pulling your reserves from your flanks to throw them into a meatgrinder in Stalingrad over megalomanian pride when the goal before Barborosa was to cut off the volga to Stalingrad

>>2156736
Yup. You would think they would have used what they learned from beating Russia in WWI to their full advantages.

>>2156780
>Germany bombs British infrastructure
>British respond by terror bombing Berlin
>Hitler like a dumbass gets goaded into terror bombing London as revenge
The Anglo cries out in pain as he strikes you

>>2157021
>Rotterdam says what

>>2156911
This is a really cool pic, thanks for posting.

>>2156911
>That bulge at Tsybenko
At can almost see how they maneuvered against the Russians

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>>2157021

>40,000 dead civilians in the blitz

>25,000 dead civilians in dresden

>"OMG NEVER FORGET THE 6 BILLION INNOCENT GERMANS KILLED BY THE EVIL ANGLOS!"

>>2157140

Dresden is the usual suspect for its fame, but it's dishonest to ignore the dozens of other cities that got bombed to shit as well. Hamburg had 42,600 killed, and Germany had at least several in the 10-20k range.

Not to say the Germans (as a government, not the civilians) didn't 'sow the wind' as they say, but don't intentionally ignore the stats for a convenient argument.

>>2156624

Actually a lot of Russians aided the Wehrmacht, called Hiwis. They believed the Nazis aimed to liberate the Russians from Stalin and valiantly volunteered. Hitler's lebensraum ideology was widely unknown outside Germany. Not to forget, the only way the Russians would know lebensraum would have been through the Soviet Union propaganda (which many of them were skeptical of anyways).

In my opinion, Hitler was not genocidal enough. The only way to deal with insurgency is mass murder.

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>nazis kill innocent eastern european civilians
>those same civilians help the nazis kill other minorities

>>2157140
>>2157352

Not a single German officer was tried for civilian bombing at Nuremberg, both sides clearly saw it as a justifiable aspect of total war.

>>2156634

they were probably actual Yugos doing the shooting, dude isn't even in a German uniform they did that pretty much everywhere they went during Barbarossa because Slavs hate Jews

>>2156700
>Literally the only reason Russian people physically exist is because of American "lend-lease"

fucking this

>>2156637
>>blitzkrieg their way to Moscow
>>be held off

get fucked, Hitler was insane and told them "nah go get the Caucasus oilfields instead lol" when they were literally in the outer suburbs of Moscow

>>2156624
I spoke with an old polish lady who once told me the Germans didn't harass or mistreat them during the occupation, but it was the Russians who later came raping and pillaging.

>>2156634
based balkanniggers

>>2157419

It's not hard to see why it'd be a can of worms the allies wouldn't want to open given their own behavior. They'd basically be calling their own air staff criminals.

It's very hard to make the argument the allies didn't go in way harder on strategic bombing than the Germans (and nobody saying "If the Germans had the air superiority the allies did they'd have done worse" will change reality).

>>2156700

Oh look it's another 'free-thinking' person with an irrational hatred of Russia and Communism.

Have you seen the size of Russia, really look at the size of a single province and try to imagine how the sum of these enormous and forbidding landmasses could be occupied whilst you're at war with Britain and the US. You're as delusional as your Hitlerboo

>>2157372

Real life is going on. Stoking ethnic tension is surprisingly easy.

Take the hypothetical of if somebody invaded Britain today and told Brits "join up and get those Pakis outta here", you'd definitely find a few volunteers who cared more about that rivalry than the one against the invader.

No, operation Barbarossa was a mistake

Hitler shouldn't invade soviet at first, he should invaded Britain

>>2157488
Pretty much all of Ukraine sided with Hitler

>>2157494
He should have not invaded anyone after France and just stayed put, eventually they would have accepted his acquisitions. He should have invested all his effort into researching nuclear weapons as soon as possible for any possible invasion of Britain or Russia.

>>2156700
dude lmao you are joking right?
at that time hitler should invade britain instead soviet

why?

>near to winter, avoiding russia wild climate
>british morale, by conquering britain, it's just a matter of time the other british colonies will fall too
>Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, a ceasefire agreement between NAZI and Soviet in Poland

then again, hitler was too naive and not using the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact properly

yes, at that ceasefire with soviet, soviet were rushing too their weapon production, but then again German had better weapon production and development at that time then the soviet had

>>2157498
by invading britain, it will be great punch for british morale and it's also for the british coloniies

all weapons, financing, and strategy for war to british colonies was provided by the great britain and by making the fall of great britain, it will be a great punch to hold british colonies

Deep Battle > Blitzkrieg

It is known.

>>2157511
invading britain would have been suicide and a waste of resources destined to end in disaster and would just make it more likely the US would enter the war.

he should have just acted like the war was over for all intents and purposes and carried on as usual. sooner or later the US would have nuclear weapons and unless he had his own nukes, there's not much he can do against that. He should have gone for nukes.

If the Bulgarians had declared war on the USSR along with the rest of the anti-Comintern, would things have looked different?
They had half a million soldiers, a lot of artillery and about a hundred tanks.

>>2157486
>It's very hard to make the argument the allies didn't go in way harder on strategic bombing than the Germans

Well yeah, but it was also the only method the British had to strike at Germany for quite some time. It was also a much more efficient use of manpower than massive ground armies as seen in the East.

It's also important to remember strategic bombing was new. Many of those involved honestly believed they could win the war from the air alone, and if you believe Speer they could have;

>After the war, Speer told American interrogators that a full-out offensive against the synthetic plants by the combined air armadas of England and America—closely spaced raids, night and day, without cease—could [alone] have brought about Germany’s surrenderin eight weeks.”

>>2157498
>He should have not invaded anyone after France and just stayed put, eventually they would have accepted his acquisitions.

Britain was comfortable enough on their island reducing city after city to smoking rubble.

Even if you make the argument Germany could logistically take sustained strategic bombing, you have to consider what the German public (and also factions within the nazi party) would think of a Fuhrer who's sitting on his haunches while Germany gets bombed day after day after day.

>>2157516
Nuclear weapon is just a matter time development, it will always happen because WW2

just like Me-262, it could happened because war
V2 rocket too

again, yes the britain invasion is a good choice at that time because french lost the battle and it's a good a intimidation for british

the war with britain will cost so much money and lives but is the price worth of it??

totally, no one can hold german invade other country. And if the soviet attacked first after the britain invasion and the germans could defend it. It will force soviet to sign another agreement.

>>2156796
His only pre-war goals were the ones handed to him so he would sit quiet and don't make any trouble. If he had been a tad smarter, he wouldn't have declared war on the entire world. His goals were so far-fetched and retarded that they were bound to be gigantic fuck-ups.

>>2157534
>the britain invasion is a good choice
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sea_Lion_(wargame)

>>2156817
What if Hitler had dummied an invasion of Poland, pulled out at the last second, letting Russia invade alone? That surely would have forced the Allies to declare war on Russia? Otherwise, at worst, they'd make their protection treaties worth nothing and at best leave them with egg on their face?

>>2157496
>Pretty much all of Ukraine sided with Hitler
Source?

>>2156754
Are you autistic?
>Germany lost everything they had gained before and half of their own territory
>Prussia got dismantled
and
>Their entire regime got destroyed
You have to be legit braindead to call that a victory

>>2156700
>>REEEEEE you can't help your allies that's cheating
really made me think

>>2156754
If Germany was a person, that person got shot, his wife beaten, his wristwatch stolen, and his daughter deflowered while bent over on his corpse.

>>2157686
Did operation barbossa good too? no of course, but the again, the achivement of british invasion is more more important than the soviet one

>why?

british had british colonies and their order of war is desentralized type which mean it will cripple all threat from british side power

british is one of major power that really really oppose Axis, even the balkan can't into the war without allied campaign and help

british had role major in north africa for holding Axis

and remember even the murrica can't war until pearl harbour, they were still sending some supply and weapons to europe forl allied even though they now the deep sea u boat in atlantic because there were still brit

also

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sea_Lion_(wargame)

that's what they said with maginot line

>what if ireland get invaded?
>there was still Battle of Atlantic

>>2157729
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_collaborationism_with_the_Axis_powers

>>2157729
dank meems

>>2157744
But that says the opposite.

>>2157744
>By the time the Red Army returned to Ukraine, a significant number of the population welcomed its soldiers as liberators.[1] More than 4.5 million Ukrainians joined the Red Army to fight Nazi Germany, and more than 250,000 served in Soviet partisan paramilitary units
Where is the part about "all of Ukraine siding with Hitler"

>>2157744
Were Ukrainian collaborants the worst cunts of the whole war?

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>>2156624
It certainly would have worked out a lot better for the Germans if they had been kinder to the Ukrainians and other Slavs who wanted nothing to do with communism

>>2156634
What this image claims is a Yugoslavian uniform is in fact an Ordnungspolizei uniform judging bu the dark sleeve cuff with the two buttons.

The rifle could very likely be a Czech VZ.24

>>2156796
>Political genius =! Strategic genius
He was really, really bad at choosing which weapons to develop, didn't listen to his generals, dismissed able generals like Guderian because they weren't completely obedient, didn't try to stop the war in 1942 when they had practically conquered all of Europe, thought that using V2s to bomb London was effective because muh psychological warfare and many other things

>>2157724
Nope, their protective treaties only applied to Germany. And Russia wouldn't have moved on Poland without Germany going first.

>>2157021

>The mefieval Coventry cathedral and St Julians church, Norwich are vital British war infrastructure

This is the new meme stormniggers are trying to convince themselves.

>arguing over whether or not hitler won WW2

just another day in /his/

>>2157814
Same anon. Not because I don't believe you, they are interesting points, but sauce?

>>2156624
Barbarossa failed about two months into the operation, long before Nazis had a chance to put their genocidal policies into fullblown practice.

>>2157852
Just like the Bismarck, Hitler killed himself before the Allies could so it doesn't count :^)

>>2157754
This is after the Germans burned down villages, hung ten people for every one german killed, etc

>>2157519
>It was also a much more efficient use of manpower than massive ground armies as seen in the East.


Not him, but it wasn't efficient at all. Just in body count ratios, strategic bombing killed an estimated 5-600,000 German civilians. The Allies lost about 160,000 pilots and aircrew on it.

>>2156700
By the time lend-lease deliveries became significant at all the stupid fucking Krauts had already been destroyed in Moscow and Stalingrad you dumb fucking Hitlerboo.

>>2156628
Winter41 right in front of moscow dude.

>>2156836

Strawman harder faggot

btw other guy who replied is not me.

>>2157434

American lend-lease did not arrive in significant amounts until after Kursk, it accounted for less then 3% of Soviet Wartime production.

>>2157488
>hatred of Russia and Communism
>irrational

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>>2156634
well known shoop

>>2157419
>both sides clearly saw it as a justifiable aspect of total war
No they didn't, it was made a war crime very shortly after the trials ended
The reason the allies decided it was ok untill '46 or something was because they would have had to hang quite a lot of their own

>>2156624
If Nazi Germany hadn't adopted those policies, their armies would have starved in the first few months of operations.

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>>2157140
>that pic
far more French and Dutch civilians got bombed by the allies than the Germans
really makes you think huh

>>2158229
>keeping farmers and workers alive is somehow bad for supplies

Epic meme as they say

>>2158254
The Nazi plan to starve "useless eaters" on a gigantic scale and appropriating USSR civilian supplies and redirecting them to the Armed forces was an absolutely vital part of German war planning in Barbarossa.

Keeping the farmers alive wouldn't have achieved much anyway, when the Nazi's did, more often then not surplus food was hidden and did not keep up with German needs.

Maybe, just maybe, the entire invasion into the USSR was a really bad idea logistically.

>>2158262
Strange how the Second Reich was able to defeat Russia without genocide

Reallymakesyouthink.gif

>>2158269
>""""defeat""""

Political collapse within Russia at the time accomplished that. And guess what; Germany lost a significant part of her Military industrial complex anyway because merely garrisoning what they had conquered was a gigantic burden right up until the end of that war.

>>2158204
Why would they shop it? One one pic you have a nazi killing a mother and a child on second you have three nazis killing entire family.

Not to mention the pic 2 looks even more shopped than the first.

>>2156700
>He defeated the entire west at Dunkirk

What the fuck did I just read?

Dunkirk is where Hitler completely failed to destroy the west, are you actually retarded?

>He was the most masterful war planner of all time

Churchill was a better war planner and he was terrible. British high command basically acted as tard wranglers to stop him from getting the rest of the forces annihalated like he did with Galipoli.

The difference between them is that Churchill actually listened to his generals and advisors sometimes, Hitler was like.

"I'LL TRY TO BE LIKE NAPOLEON, HOW MANY TROOPS WE GOT LEFT?"

"Sir we are taking massive losses on the Eastern Front, we really need to withdraw"

"KEEP ATTACKING LMAO, MUH ARYAN SUPERMEN, ONLY THE STRONGEST WILL PREVAIL"

*loses*

>>2158292
>Dunkirk is where Hitler completely failed to destroy the west, are you actually retarded?


>Implying that even if Hitler had pushed forward, and there werne't any complications or reverses, and the French army still managed to retreat in good order outside the pocket, that the destruction of 10 British divisions would have "destroyed the west".

>>2156700
>be master general, the best maybe ever
>WHAT MY ALLIES ARE SUPPLYING EACHOTHER
>NO THAT'S CHEATING

>>2158299
Considering the French would have surrendered, and the British fought the Germans alone for a full year, it could have conceivably brought Western European resistance against Germany to and end. Especially considering what Britain did to foster anti-Nazi sentiment within the occupied countries.

No. Because they had a fucking moron in charge. Seriously, what was Nazi Germany's greatest victory? Conquering half of Poland and half of France? Wow. Impressive.

>>2156700
if he was such an excellent military planner why didn't he plan for American lend-lease?

>>2158305

>Considering the French would have surrendered,

I.E., a bit less than half of the evacuees would be completely worthless.

> and the British fought the Germans alone for a full year, it could have conceivably brought Western European resistance against Germany to and end.

No, I don't see how it could conceivably have ended British resistance. Sealion is still a no-go, and without it, the fact that Britain has lost a good chunk of her pre-war army means very little, as they could (and would) go on to raise far, far more troops in any event.

You seem to be assuming that if the BEF gets smashed, Britain will fold, and I certainly don't see the basis for that assumption.

>doesn't have the manpower that Russia has
>doesn't have the navy that Britain has
>doesn't have the manufacturing power than America has
>declares war on all 3
>didn't plan for all 3 working together

Really makes you think.

>>2158325
>has one semi-decent ally
>no attempt at co-ordination of attacks at all

Really fires those neurons

>>2158290
Honest opinion...why would he be aiming for a headshot instead of just centre mass? I'm not being a naziboo but it does look like he's aiming past them?

>>2158357
Because he is posing for a photo?
Because he isn't shooting, he is just threatening to shoot, and telling them to move along?
Because he is pointing at someone just off the picture to the right?

Don't overanalyze low resolution grainy old photos.

>>2158357
He got bored and wanted to try something new to spice up his crimes against humanity

>>2158204
kek, it looks like they are trying to kill all those people. Why would they just stand there if someone fired at them?

>>2158368
Easy there cowboy. I'm just extrapolating on what the previous anon said. I'm willing to be proved wrong but give me a rebuttal with evidence rather than a fully fledged attack.
We're allowed to debate historiography here and analyzing grainy old photos are part of that.

>>2158470
You sound like an expert. How many simmiliar events did you witnessed?

>>2158002

For the damage it did to the German economy it was extremely efficient. They spent their blood in the east, but their money was spent in the west; advanced fighters, radar, navy, etc.

>>2156624
>>2156628
>>2156637
>>2156664
>>2156700
>>2156716
>>2156733
>>2156754
>>2156789
>>2156846
>>2156944
>>2157140
>>2157439
The Wehrmacht was really the most advanced for it's time army in the past 10 centuries they only lost because the winter of 43' was cold also also because the Italians dragged them into Africa also the Luftwaffe would have been better if there weren't so many supply shortages once they had jets by the way did you know that not all nazis were evil some of them were okay people the holocaust happened but it probably wasn't as severe as people say it was-
INHALE

it wouldn't have feasible to use precious fuel and resources doing something that didn't contribute to the war effort did you know that Albert Speer was a really good architect also he didn't know about the holocaust so he's not a bad guy also Hugo Boss designed the uniforms don't they look cool they look so cool dude all the German generals were really smart it's just that Hitler kept making bad decisions if it weren't for him the Wehrmacht totally would have repelled D-Day and captured Moscow and Stalingrad did you know that Hitler didn't want to bomb civilians in London it's just that the British accidentally bombed some civilians in Germany and that made him retaliate also the firebombing of Dresden was way worse also did I mention that the only reason the Germans lost is because of Italy and the winter of 43' being really cold and Hitler not crowning Rommel grand Fuhrer of the Wehrmact and god-emperor of all things

>>2158578

>For the damage it did to the German economy it was extremely efficient.

Not really. German wartime production pretty continually expanded, well past the point that they had manpower to use the equipment they were turning out.

> but their money was spent in the west; advanced fighters, radar,

By far the biggest expenditure against the strategic bombing campaign were flak guns and searchlights, enither of which are particularly expensive (although it was a reasonably big drain on manpower)

> navy, etc.

Da fuck?

>>2158578

Actually, one other point I wanted to mention but forgot. That leaves out the other half of the equation, the cost on the Allied side.

Britain was spending close to a third of her 1944 GDP on strategic bombing. America was spending more in absolute but less in relative terms overall. The strategic bombing campaign was insanely expensive

German warcrimes against the civilian populace had little effect on their military capabilities

>>2158204

>heroic german saves civilians

>this is what stormfags actually believe

>>2158946

Anti-air alone took up 1/3rd of Germany's artillery production, 1/3rd of optical production, almost all radar/signals equipment, 1/5th of all ammunition, approx. 2 million civilian workers, and 800k military personnel, more than the Wehrmacht had in Italy.

>“The combined effects of direct destruction and the diversion of resources denied German forces approximately half their battle-front weapons and equipment in 1944” - Overy

>>2159223

>and 800k military personnel, more than the Wehrmacht had in Italy.

That is quite literally wrong, as the Wehrmacht forces in Italy were over a million.

>The combined effects of direct destruction and the diversion of resources denied German forces approximately half their battle-front weapons and equipment in 1944” - Overy

Which again, is a shitty metric to use because they were still producing more "battle-front weapons and equipment" than they actually had the personnel to use.

>>2159233
>That is quite literally wrong, as the Wehrmacht forces in Italy were over a million.

There were ~25 divisions in in Italy in 1944.

>>2159233
>they were still producing more "battle-front weapons and equipment" than they actually had the personnel to use

And the ammunition shortages? The fuel rationing? A nearly complete lack of German air support of ground forces? Fighters limited to 5 minutes of combat due to lack of oil? An imposed speed limit of 17 mph due to lack of fuel, 1,500 German tanks in the Silesian coalfields that couldn't even deploy?

Okay, let's look at a few things here. First of all, the reason that Barbarossa did as well as it did, as well as German operations through to mid-Operation Blau (Stalingrad) was because of their experienced troops, radios in every tank and because Stalin had decimated his own armed forces and their leadership.

Had Hitler attacked a year earlier or a year later, his forces would not nearly have been as successful.

So, while 1941 was his best and really only opportunity to invade with a chance of winning, there really was no possibility of an outright military victory. Yes, American trucks helped Russia a great deal logistically and in motorizing their infantry, but to be honest, they would have won anyway, it would have just taken longer. Since Hitler refused any sort of mobile defense (as his Generals wanted), his numerically and technologically inferior forces would always be open to being overwhelmed and encircled.

Even if he had adopted a mobile defense on the Eastern Front, let's also look at what would have happened on the West. Assume that D-Day still happened, even if he had managed to hold the Allies at the Rhine, the US would still have had two nuclear bombs in 1945. Hitler would have been killed and most of his Generals (that would have taken over the government) would have sued for peace. There was no way to win on all fronts before 1945, much less even the Eastern front.

The only way that Hitler could have "won" would have been if the following took place, and it's still a big "IF":
1) He never declares war on the US. The US may have come in anyway at some point using U-boat attacks as an excuse, but keeping them out of the way deprives Britain the manpower for an invasion of Europe. Regardless, without Germany declaring war, US public support would have insisted that everything be thrown against the Japanese who had just attacked them, instead of the 10-20% of the war effort that was until Germany surrendered.

(continued below)

>>2159318
2) Germany goes into the Barbarossa as true liberators. Even if it was just a ruse, if they had behaved like true liberators and been kind to the populace, it's possible that Stalin could have been overthrown by a coup or that Germany could have added additional foreign manpower sooner as well as having their behind the front areas much more clear of partisan activities.

That's about it. Failing these two courses of action, there was no way Hitler could have "won".

Reading a book about Admiral Canaris, it does appear that before Kursk there was the possibility of peace between the Allies and Germany that may have happened, but apparently there was a Russian spy working in British service who made sure it didn't. I don't know how accurate that tidbit is. I suppose that could have been seen as a "win", for Russia may have sued for peace as well if he knew Hitler didn't have a second front to worry about. After Kursk, there was point as it was clear what way the winds were blowing.

If you want some good books on the topic, read David Glantz. He also has an amazing lecture here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Clz27nghIg

>>2159265

There were a million troops signed over at the surrender at Caserta at the end of the war. For a million Wehrmacht troops to surrender, they need to be there.

https://books.google.com/books?id=TIHKkzcf_bcC&pg=PA522&lpg=PA522&dq=1,873,000+jodl&source=bl&ots=oGlYRs2xWm&sig=VB5_mKMB5v5tULi0fJuT6SvFqa0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjls5vdwefKAhUB8WMKHSWbDUQQ6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=1%2C873%2C000%20jodl&f=false

This lists the German troop level at 961,000 in May of 1944. Both numbers are larger than 800,000.

>>2159284


>And the ammunition shortages? The fuel rationing?

Started long before the strategic bombing picked up any sort of steam; Germany wasn't able to produce enough fuel to keep up with expenditure during the Polish campaign, let alone the higher requirements of the later war.

>A nearly complete lack of German air support of ground forces?

Again, something that had been going on for a long while; if nothing else, pure production disparity between their enemies and the Luftwaffe meant that CAS gets riskier and riskier as you have Allied fighters all over the place. (Although I will freely admit that an enormous number of German air losses, especially in single-engined fighters, occurred ancillary to the strategic bombing campaign)

>Fighters limited to 5 minutes of combat due to lack of oil? An imposed speed limit of 17 mph due to lack of fuel, 1,500 German tanks in the Silesian coalfields that couldn't even deploy?

And again, they had been having fuel shortages long before they had strategic bombing. And the oil campaign only started post D-Day, at which point the Germans were already deep in the hole for purely tactical and operational reasons.

>>2156634
>doesn't know that einsatzgruppen always co-ordinated with local paramilitaries

>>2159371
>they had been having fuel shortages long before they had strategic bombing

But the decisive hits to fuel production, both liquid and synthetic, were from the air.

>Production from the synthetic plants declined steadily and by July 1944 every major plant had been hit. These plants were producing an average of 316,000 tons per month when the attacks began. Their production fell to 107,000 tons in June and 17,000 tons in September. Output of aviation gasoline from synthetic plants dropped from 175,000 tons in April to 30,000 tons in July and 5,000 tons in September. Production recovered somewhat in November and December, but for the rest of the war was but a fraction of pre-attack output.

>On June 30, Speer wrote: "The enemy has succeeded in increasing our losses of aviation gasoline up to 90 percent by June 22nd. Only through speedy recovery of damaged plants has it been possible to regain partly some of the terrible losses." - SB Survey

The attrition of aircraft is also a direct result of the bombing campaign, and both Speer and Galland argued for the complete withdrawal of the Luftwaffe from the Western Front in favor of an all-out effort against the bombers over Germany.

>This lists the German troop level at 961,000 in May of 1944. Both numbers are larger than 800,000.

That lists more than just Wehrmacht.

>>2160089
>But the decisive hits to fuel production, both liquid and synthetic, were from the air.

The single biggest hit to fuel production was the Soviet overrunning of Ploesti, which was not from the air, and also happening around the same time.

>The attrition of aircraft is also a direct result of the bombing campaign, and both Speer and Galland argued for the complete withdrawal of the Luftwaffe from the Western Front in favor of an all-out effort against the bombers over Germany.

Except that plane production (nevermind pilot and groundcrew training) is not infinitely fungible, and attack craft aren't going to do much help to stop raids against you.

>That lists more than just Wehrmacht.

It lists more than just the Heer. It does not list more than just the Wehrmacht.

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>>2156624
>genocidal policy
Black propaganda of WWII winners.
Also, Germany hadnt enough population to continue conquer. Optimal decision was to fortify this line and keep defence.

>>2160125
>The single biggest hit to fuel production was the Soviet overrunning of Ploesti, which was not from the air, which was not from the air, and also happening around the same time.

The Fifteenth Air Force and RAF had reduced the output of the main Ploesti fields by 90 percent by the time the Red Army occupied them.

>>2160175
>The Fifteenth Air Force and RAF had reduced the output of the main Ploesti fields by 90 percent by the time the Red Army occupied them.


No they hadn't. In 1943, the Romanians exported 13 million barrels to the Germans. They produced 7 million barrels in the first halfish of the year, and most of the export restriction between June and the fall of the fields in August was due to mining efforts in the Danube; transportation, not production.

>>2160198

>The Fifteenth fought four broad campaigns: against enemy oil, enemy air force, enemy communications, and enemy ground forces. Most vital of the Fifteenth's oil targets was the Ploesti complex of refineries, which contributed about 30% of the entire Axis oil supply and an equal amount of gasoline. Ploesti was protected by 150 first class fighters and 250 heavy flak guns when the Fifteenth, with the cooperation of the RAF 205th Group of night bombers, began a series of attacks against it on April 5. The campaign continued until 19 August. Fifteenth and RAF bombers flew 5,287 sorties, dropping 12,870 tons of bombs. The cost was 237 heavies (15 of them RAF), 10 P-38 dive bombers and 39 escorting fighters. More than 2,200 American Airmen were lost. But results were good. At the end of the campaign the refineries were reduced to only 10% of their normal rate of activity and during the entire period from April to August the average production rate was reduced by 60%.

>>2160205

I don't know where you're getting those figures, but I'm getting my export ones from


> Zentrale Planung, 37th Meeting, April 22, 1943, p. 45.

and

> United States Strategic Bombing Survey, The Effects of Strategic Bombing on the German War Economy (Washington, 1945), p. 75.

And I simply fail to see how they can be reconciled; and furthermore, I would think that actual export records would be more exact than damage estimations from the air. If they sent about half the oil in half the time, the damage couldn't be all that severe.

>>2160222

Should be in the bomber survey, ill have to look.

>>2156754
>>2156754
Forgetting the fact that German national identity was cucked so hard that they are now being systematically overrun and pillaged by sand nigger refugees

>>2160222

>"With the beginning of the concerted offensive on 5 April production started to decline. From April to 23 August 1944, when the refineries shut down, an average of but 140,000 tons of crude oil were refined monthly, which was 38% of the January-March average. The total five months estimated reduction was 1,129,000 tons, a 62% loss to Germany. These figures are all taken from official refinery records captured at, Ploesti after Rumania's surrender.The loss of Ploesti at a time when all other major enemy oil production centers were being systematically liquidated day by day represents a major triumph in the, history of strategic air warfare.

>During the entire period of attack on Ploesti, from April to August, the average production rate was reduced by 60%. More important is the fact that exports of gasoline to Germany and the Wehrmacht
were cut to one-third of their previous level. This loss represented about 15% of Germany's gasoline supply.

>As a result of these attacks the refineries were reduced, at the time of surrender on 23 August, to only 10% of their normal rate of activity.
- "Air Power in the Mediterranean, November 1942-February 1945", Hq. Mediterranean Air Forces, APO 650 18 Feb. 1945

>>2160600

>"The destruction of Ploesti oil between April and August, 1944, was part of a comprehensive program directed toward the systematic liquidation of all major Nazi oil production centers.There were still 21 crude and synthetic oil targets in Mediterranean Allied Air Forces territory after Ploesti's fall, and these were the particular province of Fifteenth AAF heavies..By Mid-March 1945,only six were operating, and by April,production of Axis oil was 10 per cent of what it had been at the start of the campaign one year previously."
- "Battlefield in The Mediterranean Skies", Maj Gen Louis Norstad

>"The campaign against German oil production,the main blows of which were not struck until after D- Day, proved to be the most immediately catastrophic of all to German hopes. Production from synthetic plants declined from.~316,000 tons per month when the attacks began to 17,000 tons in September. Output of aviation gasoline from synthetic plants dropped from 175,000 to 5,000."
- "Strategic Airpower over Europe", Lt. Gen Ira C. Eaker

>>2156634
thank you for your replies
it will help us greatly

>>2156634
I love when they claim every photo that makes the germans look bad is just cosplaying NKVD agents

>>2159543
>Yugoslav Partisans
>local to Ukraine
>working with the Germans

Try again.

>>2157738
jews

>>2156700

>this is what stormniggers actually believe

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>>2158204
If they were taking enemy fire they would not be standing like a pack of dunces out in the open for everyone to see, nor would they be aiming at civilians. Not to mention that the guy in the picture is wearing an Ordnungspolizei uniform and those guys were not combat troops and didn't fight at the frontlines

>>2158794
KEK

>>2156651
How can you tell without seeing the Kragenspiegel?

>>2157419
er no. They wanted to avoid the tu quoque