Is he our guy?

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What is even a point Mausoleum, anyway?! Did he wanted to be resurrected in future like people from trans-humanism or something?

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>>1771260
no no he is not

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>>1771296
Compagno!

>>1771260
Closest we've got!

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>>1771260
yes

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Is he (Lord forgive me for uttering such a thing as this) "our guy"?

>>1772198
s m u g

m

u

g

>>1771283
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDXtVlG2VW0

Lenin is probably the most impressive revolutionary second to maybe only Mao.

>>1772303
Mao might have been an impressive revolutionary, but he was a retarded dictator both in maintaining his dictatorship, and the stuff he actually managed to do while being a dictator. Also his ideology is kind of shit.

>>1772320

You use of ad hominem and expletives have certainly convinced me your opinion is worthy of consideration!

>>1772320

Industrializing a largely agrarian country, maintaining 5% growth rates, reforming most of China's government institutions and proving decent healthcare and medical treatments whilst lifting many out of poverty is pretty impressive in my opinion.

I agree he did some stupid shit. But ignoring his accomplishments only make you look silly.

>>1772326
Lots of that happened when Mao wasn't in control

>>1772303
That would be Tito and for the record, Stalin transformed a heavily outdated rural "Empire" into a nuclear space-faring superpower.

>>1772339

No it really didn't.

>>1772408

Mao literally had less then 1,000 men left after the Long March and he still came back to whoop Chiang. That's impressive. Tito never had to manage 1 billion people either.

>>1771260
That's not Mussolini

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>>1771315
Fratello mio Benito!

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>>1771260
ar' guy

>>1772417
Although, 1 billion Chinese are easier to manage than 24 million semi-illiterate and inherently savage South Slavs.

>>1772408
I know it's a what if, but surely Russia would've developed without gulags/purges

>>1772468

And you think the bulk of the Chinese weren't illiterate and living in even worse conditions than Slavs?

Don't make me laugh. Tito had it easy mode compared to China. China is also much more ethnically diverse than the Balkans.

>>1772511
You don't seem to understand, it's not about poverty, it's about mentality.South Slavs are highly fractious, especially according to East Asian standards.

>>1772571

>t. my /pol/ memes

Interesting, indeed.

>>1772303
Tito successfully repelled the Nazis with a partisan army

Castro overthrow the entire government of Cuba with 82 nen

>>1772408
Stalin was a moron who managed to lose Russo-Polish war in 1920, thus ultimately stopping the Revolution. And then he turned USSR from a fairly liberal union to authoritarian empire.

>>1771283
Lenin never asked for this, his party comrades wanted to create an "idol" for the people to worship.

>>1772408
Stalin oversaw maybe the quickest process of industrialization ever performed. I don't think he was particularly brilliant, rather some decent policy in combination with extreme totalitarianism. Impressive but it doesn't imply that Stalin is particularly brilliant

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>>1771260
yes

>>1772408
Tito is fucking based but Stalin, as a revolutionary, wasn't too impressive. His role was minimal compared to Lenin and Trotsky.

However, Stalin's civil war actions were incredible, albeit harsh.

>>1772582
Not really a /pol/ meme, you wouldn't believe to what an extent historical factoids influence people in the Balkans. In the case of Balkans I really do think that ideology creates the base. I think it's because we never really had a continuous historiographical tradition.

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I have nothing to add to the discussion I just like this picture of Lenin

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>>1773337

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>>1771260
He had is smug look even in young age. What not to love about him?

I like Trotsky better
>Life is not an easy matter... You cannot live through it without falling into frustration and cynicism unless you have before you a great idea which raises you above personal misery, above weakness, above all kinds of perfidy and baseness.
Based af

>>1773398
Quotes are quotes, but in the end Trotsky wasn't able to resist Stalin. And that's a damn shame.

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>>1772198

>promises land, peace, bread
>doesn't deliver on any of that

He was a real jerk.

>>1773406
Yeah, his aloofness after Lenin's death and his unwillingness to split the party into factions somewhat allowed Stalin to consolidate power. I really think the USSR would have been better off under Trotsky, but who knows.

>>1773411
>Takes all the bread and kills five million peasants under 'war communism'
Not quite the people's hero after all.

>>1773411
But he delivered.

>>1773418
>civil war started by the butthurt tsarist generals
What Lenin has to do with this?

>>1771260
Why did you post a picture of lenin and not Mussolini?

>>1773423
Lenin started the revolution and led the insurrection in Petrograd. Any further events were directly a result of this, including the civil war and including the induced famine.

>>1773447
So you be saying the people of Russia would be better off with a shitty Tzar, who was controlledby by a bunch of industrial giants, who exploited the people like there is no tomorrow? Oh, and famines each 1-2 years. What a paradise.

>>1773455
>a shitty Tzar, who was controlledby by a bunch of industrial giants

But I thought Russia under the Tsar wasn't industrialized? You have to find a narrative on pre-revolutionary Russia and stick to it, bud.

>>1773455
No, not necessarily, though under the new agrarian policies Nicholas ii was introducing it was slowly climbing out of the shit heap, WW1 fucked things up majorly in that regard.
Your initial point was that Lenin had nothing to do with the famine during the civil war, which is patently ridiculous.

>>1773465
It's not like Russia was completely agrarian, there were some factories in Western Russia, mostly owned by foreigners. Those foreigners were interested in getting their shit back after revolution hit, so they shipped a lot of weapons and supplies to the cucked White generals.

>>1773468
You realize that if not for the Civil war, there would be no famine in the first place? Was it Lenin's fault that Tzarist remnants, desperately craving for power, started the shitstorm at the East?

>>1773455
Lenin rebelled against Kerensky's Duma government, not the Tzar.

>>1773494
Yeah, sorry, my fault. But it's not like Kerensky was any better.

>>1773485
For God's sake, circular reasoning already?
Lenin started and led the revolution. Tsarists responded in the usual manner, forcefully trying to take power from the Bolsheviks. Therefore, Lenin is, at the very least, equally responsible for the civil war.

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>>1773177
>Lenin never asked for this
>tfw you realize Lenin has the same goatee as Adam Jensen

The similarity is uncanny

>>1772511
>China is also much more ethnically diverse than the Balkans.
What? I thought China was 98% Han Chinese? Or is that just in modern times?

>>1773502
As >>1773494 said, Lenin led the revolution against Provisional Government, not the Tzar. Remnant generals started to cause shit only after they received a huge funding from England and France. They already lost at this point, and saying that Lenin is responsible for the actions of Vrangel, Kolchak and Kornilov is like saying that the Union was responsible for the Lost Cause rebellion.

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>>1771260
he knows the secret technique, so yes

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>>1772326
>>1772414
http://www.ggdc.net/maddison/maddison-project/data.htm

1950: 448
1959 (10 years after war with kuomintang ended): 686
1976: 853

10^[(log(853/686))/17]=1.3% growth

10^[(log(853/448))/26]=2.5% growth including post-war recovery

China was well placed for industry, it was in a temperate grain producing area with high levels of urbanization before the industrial revolution, most of the population was near the coast with easy access to the global market. Heavy investment in the military including technical achievements like nuclear weapons, state of the art fighter jets and a space program proved China was more than capable of fast industrialization and for whatever reason chose not to. Mao's China is basically a case study on how authoritarianism, corruption and political instablity can adversely affect economic growth.

China can be contrasted with India which, though democratic, also went through decades of dismal growth and now lags behind after China's reforms. Communism is an incomplete theory. Democracy is just a system with advantages and disadvantages along side others like republicanism. It is overwhelmingly clear that capitalism and true American values (really universal values, they are just most prominent in America) are key to pretty much everything worthwhile in the world.

Dictators aim to stay in power. Politicians are concerned with appearances. The bourgeois however only want to increase their personal wealth without getting into trouble, they are harmless compared to dictators and far more realistic compared to politicians. Because they are often the only person in the world with this goal besides family and close friends it is ridiculous to view them as a threat, rather we should respect each others' individual rights.

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>>1771296
Close but no cigar

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>>1773154
>who managed to lose Russo-Polish war in 1920, thus ultimately stopping the Revolution
Are you retarded, what did Stalin have to do with that campaign?
Kamenev was glavkom (commander in chief) at the time giving all the orders and generals responsible for operation were Egorov, Budeni and Tukhachevsky.
Tukhachevsky thinking that the orders were shit (which they arguably were) and that he can blitz with the best comes up with fast radical plan and gets slaughtered while Budeni is nowhere around to help him (either because previous battles slowed him down or because he didn't like Tukhachevski as some people claimed). This pretty much fucked the rest of the war up.

Polish fuck up makes Lenin think that Kamenev is actually incompetent and not very smart at all, it also discredited Tukhachevsky and made his later plans for fast wild tank armies into a pipe dream.

Stalin's biggest contribution to that war was sitting in Egorov's camp and being inefficient together with Egorov. He was still pretty "literally who" at the time politically. And being involved into the actual relevant war theater that went to shit probably saved him some political capital.

>>1771296
>>1773692
Nations are fabricated bourgeois identities that undermine authentic culture and tradition.

Classcucks >>>/out/

>>1773768
Separated nations and languages are why we have separate cultures and traditions you colossal faggot.

>>1773530
Han Chinese is a cultural and ethnic identity, but there's enormous variation within culture and dialect of Han subgroups. Two random Chinese individuals probably cannot understand each other unless they speak a common second language like Mandarin or standard Cantonese.

>>1773779
Not that guy, but it would be the other way around, ideally. Nations should stem from cultures, traditions, and languages, not the other way around.

>>1773437
He's pol's guy

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>>1773768

Back to your containment board turboautist neckbeard

>>1773779
No you fucking retard

Nobody in Piedmont ate spaghetti until the new Italian government decided some random traditions from Sicily and Calabria would now become "Italian traditions", shared by all citizens of a state that did not exist a decade prior.

Before the enlightenment, states had essentially no national identity. This is a modern innovation, intimately tied to the ascent of liberal ideology.

>>1774149
Front left in the black is kinda qt 2bh.

>>1771260
Only if Rosa is 'our girl'.

>>1771260
No, he was just [[[someone's]]] puppet planted to destroy Russia

>>1774357
>destroy Russia
>ended up as one of the two largest superpowers in the last half of the 20th century.

You know, the "Jews are behind it all" meme really falls apart when the Jews are fighting amongst themselves.

>>1774357
>Kaiser sends Lenin to Russia to incite revolution and withdraw them from war

>THE FUCKING JEWS MUST HAVE DONE THIS

Holy shit you're retarded kid, get the fuck back to NEET daycare

>>1773779
Culture, tradition and language all predate the concept of a nation.
The nation came about in the modern period, and isn't even over a thousand years old.

>>1772582
I'm from the Balkans and I dare say that I'm more acquainted with my kind than you are.

>>1773793
>common second language like Mandarin or standard Cantonese.

>cantonese
>relevant

>>1774222

>tfw the Mezzogiorno won the culture wars

Feels good man

>>1771260
No, Mussolini is our guy

>>1773530

There are over 56 ethnicities in China. 91% of China is Han, yes, but you have to keep in mind that that still leaves 105 million (a huge amount of people) who aren't Han, and still hold onto their local customs.

In fact a huge problem for China today is trying to keep these minorities happy and in line with Han rule. For example, Beijing is incredibly worried about Uyghur Muslims and they've recently tried to force their women to stop wearing veils which has caused quite a lot of resistance.

>>1774626
Fucking wiggers

>>1773652

What is the point of this post? It backs up what I say. India and China is a good comparison as to why the CCP worked so well for China and why democracy didn't work for India.

The KMT were useless and impotent.

>>1773652
You do realize it's possible to have a democratic or republican socialism? In fact most non-tankies would say it's vital.

>>1774554
I disagree that it is less than a Millenia old. Were the Achaeans not a civilisation? Nor the Mykene? Nor the Romans, the Byzantines, the Egyptians, the proto-Syrians or the Judeans who had such a strong sense of national identity and pride?

>>1774656
Closest thing to a nation would maybe be some Jewish kingdoms, but I'm no expert on them. A nation is a political entity unified by a particular ethnic group's culture and interests. Effectively, it's about a 'national identity' and creating a state based around unfying all those with this national identity and a common language. Most kingdoms in the past were more concerned with unifying family lands, expanding for the sake of expanding or expanding to spread an idealogy. The concept of bring all of 'your people' under a single state didn't really crop up much before the early-modern nation states started popping up.

>>1774656

I think you're conflating "nation" and "civilisation" when they didn't have anything to do with each other until the 19th Century.

Nation is a highly politicised term and you should be careful applying it to earlier periods.

>>1774649

No it's not. Socialism requires the destruction of human rights and identity.

You would be wise to listen to your boy Stalin when he argues 'He who votes decides nothing. He who counts the vote decides everything.'

>>1774677

>Socialism requires [inserts political opinion]

We're trying to have a good conversation here, champion.

>>1774667
>>1774673
Ok, my apologies then. Seems I'm going to have to go back to school to learn some basic definitions. I thought a nation was pretty much synonymous with civilisation, country etc.

>>1774682

It's not like everyone has had this conversation a billion times because the socialists retardedly keep coming back after they get BTFO EVERY SINGLE TIME.

>>1774688
No problem, it doesn't help that the word nation is actually quite old, I think I've seen it used in medieval texts.

>>1774696
>deny something
>HAHAHA BTFO FAGGOT END OF DISCUSSION

>>1774715

m8, you're the one that denies that socialism is incompatible with basic human rights and decency.

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>>1771260
No

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NO HE IS NOT

I WANT /leftypol/ TO LEAVE

WHEN WE SAY /pol/ ISN'T WELCOMED HERE WE MEAN ANY KIND OF /pol/

FUCKING COMMIES GET OFF MY BOARD GO BACK TO CRIPPLECHAN REEEEEEEEEEE

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>>1774241
Of course she is!

>>1774357
But communists turned Russia into the second most powerful civilization of all time.

>>1773779
Nation states didn't exist until the 17th century you mongoloid

>>1774800
>nations can't exist without nation states
Are you literally retarded?

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Just a reminder, one part of the Russian Empire, Finland, managed to escape Bolshevism.

It became the best country in the world.

>>1771333
I can't wait until the fascist revolution happens and we can get rid of people like you.

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>>1774811

>>1774818
>implying fascism is monarchist
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0psF0cnLHE

I can't wait until the fascist revolution happens and we can get rid of reactionaries like you.

>>1774800
Yes, it was a lexical mistake on my part. I wasn't talking about nations it seems, but rather civilisations. Though, I hold to the opinion that some kind of national identity can form without a centralised state.

>>1774749
/leftypol/ is just part of this board's fabric

there are always like 10 commie threads at any given time

>>1774810
The nation is defined by the nation state.

When France was still a kingdom, do you really think some Basque speaker in Gascony would have thought of himself as a Frenchman?

>>1774826
A ruling class above the rest of society is almost entirely inherent in fascism. Not very different from a monarchy.

>>1774818
>fascist revolution
>ever happening

The ONLY way fascists can succeed is by playing the race card, but designer babies will soon turn race into a non-issue

>>1774877
it wasn't like this 6 months ago

>>1774885
Fascism is quasi-demographic because a fascist state purportedly serves the interests of the nation at large, rather than just the interests of the monarch and aristocracy.

>>1774883
The Basque people are still a distinct nation even without being a nation-state.

Same with Catalonia, Quebec, etc.

You're probably mixing nationality with citizenship.

>>1774885
So democracies are monarchists too? also >>1774893

>>1774890
Isn't this board 5 months old?

>>1775076
nope, it was here since last Halloween, a month more perhaps.

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>>1771260

>muh vanguard party

>>1775107
How else do you turn a riot into a revolution?

>>1774902
If you asked Franco, there was no Catalan or Basque nation.

Spain is unusual because its history of political disunity prevented regional identities from being quashed.

>>1775143
Create a workable system that represents the "will of the people" and cannot defy it, which communism is supposed to be in the first place. It is telling that even before the revolution has been won the "vanguard party" is already a tyrannical entity.

>>1771283
wasn't his idea

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>>1771260
Who else would it be? Giuseppe Garibaldi?

>>1775463
How can you establish this before the revolution has succeeded?

>>1774629
The US funded KMT would have almost certainly been pro-capitalist and more open, it would have acted more like post-Mao CCP from the onset. Mao-era CCP was repressive and drastically slowed Chinese growth for ~20 years.

>The KMT were useless and impotent.
I doubt KMT veterans who fought the Japs were useless and impotent. The KMT was militarily weaker for reasons outside their control.

>>1774649
Socialism requires a lot of commitment from everyone, unemployed workers need to accept being moved around and retrained, workers need to accept it if a more efficient machine replaces them, managers need to care more about results than appearances. It is too much for something like democracy, even if someone has the best intentions the system disconnects them from reality and they won't strive like capitalist businesses. It always ends up looking like Venezuela.

The solution to this (and the gross violation of individual rights) is to base the system on consent and set up worker's cooperatives within a capitalist system, kind of like Mondragon Corporation.

When you have to work hard, work smart, live beneath your means, invest your saved capital in your place of work instead of higher yield investments and make rules that essentially mean this capital is shared with newer/poorer employees, you will see the kind of commitment it takes and will be deeply connected with the business and communal living. You're not going to spend that kind of money unless the system works so you will push the socialist experiment as far as it can before you face problems then you will hold back commitment and work on finding a realistic solution. If you develop a workable system your cooperative will expand and others will follow in your example.

Importantly you have to do all this yourself and with others who willingly join you otherwise you jinx it.

>>1771260
yeah, pretty much

>>1774727
Why is socialism incompatible with human rights? You have yet to explain that.

>>1775823
>muh growth

>>1773411
peace came after world war 2, nearly 40 years without a protracted war
bread came almost immidiately, there has been no famine in russia since the holodomer
land... eh

>>1771260
Communist are retards because they even don't clone the Red halfgod.

>>1774749
Isn't leftypol just a part of /his/ now?

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>>1776124
>implying he's not coming back

>>1776176
/leftypol/ is not fucking welcome

>>1774877
Fuck you and your shitty vocal minority

Friendly reminder that >20% of this board is commie or socialist

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>>1773692

>>1774811
*Managed to be freed with the assistance of Lenin (AKA our guy)

t. Finn

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>>1771260
Da

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>>1776226
Since when?

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>>1771260
no
>shitposting misogynist NEET who passed laws restricting the rights of women
napoleon is undisputedly our eternal guy

>>1772408

>Stalin transformed a heavily outdated rural "Empire" into a nuclear space-faring superpower.

>Implying the Tsar wouldn't have done it faster