Software development Job hunting thread

>>59345058
no.

>>>/biz/

>>59345058
Bait or retard? Not sure. You should have simply been up front. I don't think he took that as "wow free thinker huh" he just thought you were autistic. Anyway, also in the software job hunt. I'm thinking about writing a Craigslist crawler bot, but does that sound too uninteresting to bother with? What's something that grabs attention?

>>59345131
Something a normie would use.

Better than yours, and I'm not looking for work.

>Probably couldn't implement either one
Not well desu

>>59345058
>implement muh stupid sort
Did this shit really happen???

NO ONE has the various sort algorithms memorized because it would be stupid to memorize them. You will NEVER have to sort your own shit in corporate production code. Fuck, even C has qsort and bsearch, and I guarantee you they are better optimized than anything your interviewer could write.

Anything higher level, including C++, gives you many additional options.

Now if he had the definition of bubblesort printed out and ready to hand to you, that's different. It's a coding test above FizzBuzz.

But if he expected you to know that shit off hand, he's a fucking retard, and I hate interviewers like him even when I'm not the interviewee.

>hurr durr lets ask this stupid trivia question and see if he knows it

>>59345058
How are you supposed to know which bullshit algorithms and whatever else you need to learn to be viewed employable? There's too much; take project Euler's problems, for example: few people can solve all of them without prior research, and many require a math background.

Better than me I suppose.

I can't do algorithm or data structure implementations. No matter how many times I read through them, do them and try to memorize them, they just fly away from my head for some reason.

Also went to a code interview prep meetup and also had no clue how to approach their algorithm problems.

Any sources online that could help me get into the algorithm mindset better?

>>59345244
And while I'm bitching...

Whiteboards.

FUCK whiteboards. Put a God damn computer in the room with an IDE so the candidate has an environment and you can watch them work out problems. IMHO part of picking the right person means giving them a problem that is tough and observing them prototype, debug, learn.

>>59345251
This. I would let an interviewee Google search as long as he didn't copy/paste code. Watching him work would tell me more than "hurr durr shitsort."

Awesome, you demonstrated that you cannot follow basic instructions and are unwilling to do what your employer asks of you. Maybe next time you will understand this relationship and not show yourself so poorly.

>>59345058
>Ask anon to do a task
>"Why do you want me to do this? This is stupid."
>I know it's stupid but just do it. I have my reasons.
>"I'm going to ignore what you asked me and do something else instead"
0/10, can not follow basic instructions.

>>59345244
Most sorting algorithms just ilustrate some simple idea. If you understand the idea, you'll have no problem reconstructing the algorithm.

Bubble sort: invariant. First x elements in an array are sorted, increase x from 1 to n.

Merge sort: divide and conquer. Sort left half, sort right half, merge.

I think this is something that people who whine about algorithm memorization fail to understand: nobody is really memorizing all the different algorithms and their details. You only have to know several problem solving patterns and everything else just falls into place.

This may not apply to obscure and complicated algorithms, but it will get you through most of the sorting, graph, dynamic programming problems that you may encounter.

Signed a contract earlier in the week for a new job starting at the start of next month. With the condition that my security clearance and drug tests come back OK.

Got a pretty sizeable raise and top tier benefits package.

>>59345244
>It's a coding test above FizzBuzz

def easysort(lst):
    return sorted(lst.split())

>>59345716
>>59345538
>>59345451
>>59345310
>>59345244
>>59345058
Anybody know how to
1) write/draw a simple algorithm for recombining strings of numbers in random and other ways
and
2) code it in C/C++ etc

I have a simple thing I need help with. I will pay you 100 bucks for it.

>>59345978
Do your own fucking homework.

>>59345978

Sure. Mail me if you are serious, we will discuss safe payment platform for that.

>>59345538
>security clearance
I hope you hide all your traces about visiting 4chan

>>59345058
>unable to do Bubblesort

WTF, I literally learnt this shit in high school because it's so easy.

>thinking you're smarter than your boss
>not following their orders to the letter
Enjoy being fired

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>turning 32 this August
>no degree, no job for 7 years
>I've been making excuses for myself all this time
>decide to turn it around

>started learning to code last week
>wrote time clock software in Python with a keypad hooked up to a Raspberry Pi
>put 60 hours in this week and still going strong

can I still make it?

>>59348494
So is mergesort. Especially in pseudo code.

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>interview three days ago at huge IT firm
>get asked what I did in the last 5-6 months since I graduated
>"I was looking for a fitting job"
>what'd you do in the meantime?
>the usual, have fun with my hobbies, work on my own ideas, etc...
>get asked over and over AND OVER again where my time went
>can't admit my family's health took a huge dump because I don't want them to think I'm looking for pity
>took care of grandma with a stroke, couldn't take a shit on her own, almost burned the damn house down a couple times
>mother had a thyroid operation, I had to take mini fast food restaurant business work over for a while
>father lost most of his sight in an accident, had to drive him for 6 hours every couple of days to operations
>imouto moved into city, enrolled into same college as I so I dedicated the rest of my free time to mentor her
>get yelled at by the psychologist in the interview room with "I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY YOU'RE TRYING TO LIE TO US"

still feeling bad, man
no way am I getting any chances there...

>>59345257
take a deck of cards and read the pseudo code of the algorithms and do that to sort your deck by hand. if this shit doesn't help you might actually be retarded.

you could literally come up with a bubblesort alogrithm from scratch after thinking somewhat hard for three minutes. that's why it's called naive.

>>59348870
>tfw can't just say I sat around playing video games but am now able to deliver on production work as per these examples
fucking wagecucks jesus christ
>when HR is dumber than you and it shows

>>59345058
>20 years C++ coding
>have no fucking idea what the fuck bubble sort or merge sort is
>just use whatever in std that appears to be optimized for the current sorting problem
90% of all the coding most of you ever will do is trivial and a low paid Pajeet could do it (well not really but almost). However you didn't get the job because you could not follow instructions.

>>59348751
Absolutely. Compete a personal project or two, put them on GitHub. Then contribute a feature out two to a couple of popular open source projects. Put that on your resume. Learn the basics of webdev. Find a startup that's desperate for devs. Don't ask for a lot of money (maybe like $50k), work your ass of for a year or two. Then you'll be in a good enough place to find other jobs at higher pay.

>>59349457
>Absolutely. Compete a personal project or two, put them on GitHub. Then contribute a feature out two to a couple of popular open source projects. Put that on your resume. Learn the basics of webdev. Find a startup that's desperate for devs. Don't ask for a lot of money (maybe like $50k), work your ass of for a year or two. Then you'll be in a good enough place to find other jobs at higher pay.
Are you being sincere? I'm afraid that having done literally nothing with my life for seven years is going to destroy my chances right out of the gate. I'd say I'm vaguely competent already just based on what I've learned so far... at least in the sense that I can script basic web stuff with Python (which is fun as well, btw)... but I'm like a manchild who woke up one day and realized the error of my ways.

Every time I ask around about this, people say, "Oh, yeah... about that..." and sort of imply that I have no chance whatsoever.

>>59349484

explaining a 7 year gap on your resume is going to be a bitch but I would just be honest and say you were having personal problems during that time but are better now and can demonstrate your ability to code

there is a big demand for programmers right now and if you work in the industry for awhile you will meet some weird fuckers who have odd pasts

programmers are notorious for being partially nuts

>>59349596
>explaining a 7 year gap on your resume is going to be a bitch but I would just be honest and say you were having personal problems during that time but are better now and can demonstrate your ability to code
How can I do this without coming across like a hopeless mess? For what it's worth, I'm well put together and I can be friendly and mostly normal. I'm just extremely nervous about the prospect of explaining this gap. Like you said, it's going to be a bitch no matter what...

>>59348751
how did you get to your current skill level anon?

what learning resources did you use? :)

>>59349681
>How can I do this without coming across like a hopeless mess?

State the truth in the most simple and direct manner possible.

What is the truth? how would you explain the gap to a friend?

Go with that, it's too much of a gap for anyone to ignore who would be hiring you and it's too big a gap to fudge and lie about. Be short direct and truthful so there is no need for many followup questions to a fuzzy or half true answer

you are going to have to go on a lot of interviews to find someone to take a chance on you but it is doable

>>59349731
I started with MIT's into to compsci with python on edx, it's free

>>59345058
If you can't implement bubble sort after being told what it is then your developer skills are more lacking than you think they are. It's literally just sorting pairs of elements in n2.

>>59349731
Resources, well koding with Kali of course

>>59349794
I was a spoiled (man)child and I aspired to play video games and nothing else. I had some money in the bank so I chose not to work. I did take classes off and on and I'm sort of close to an associates degree. I'm not really sure how to sell this to an employer though, I would immediately think someone saying the above is a waste of time. Sux. I am an idiot.

>>59349795
alright anon, not looking to learn python just curious how you did. awesome

>>59349817
good one bro xD

>>59349484
Yes, I was being sincere. Naturally, the gap isn't a good thing. Firstly, what were you although doing? Gaming? Did you have any jobs?

However, if you're really into programming and can prove some ability, people will look past the time gap (especially if they're desperate for help). In trade, you're going to take a lower salary then you would have if you just changed careers. That's okay though, in a couple years if you actually work hard, you can get enough experience to move elsewhere and get a solid salary.

The thing that a lot of people don't get is that software is still about human interaction. If you can come in to the interview and know you're stuff and seem like the type of person that I can grab a beer with, I'd hire you despite your lack of experience.

I don't know if I agree with the other person saying you should chalk up your gap in time to personal problems. I worry it would make you appear unstable. Instead, I'd suggest saying "I was late to discover my love of programming" and hopefully have a story to tell if what you were doing in the meantime. If you truly weren't doing anything, then you will need to have an answer that you're comfortable saying and owning (don't get shy when they ask, say it as matter of factly as possible) that doesn't make you seem unstable. Maybe just "I was focusing on personal growth" or something vague like that. It's a tough situation, but you can spin it many may change up the lack of experience in a resume to just buy including unrelated work. When I hire for a software developer, I don't give a shit about your work at Pizza Hut.

>>59349890
>Firstly, what were you although doing? Gaming? Did you have any jobs?

Graduated high school, took classes part time while working shitty job, became depressed, started taking 1-2 classes per semester while playing video games, became more depressed, stopped going to school. Last job was Burger King in 2011, last class was in 2012. 3.95 GPA at shitty no-name college with about 80 credits.

I was depressed because I was childish and lacked perspective and I had a hard time with some minor curveballs in life, family issues, etc. it was stupid but I didn't realize that at the time.

>>59349939
you successfully infiltrated and took over OPs thread you 30+ neet loser

if you could achieve this then you can achieve your dreams

//grats, keep on truckin

>>59349827

Mention the classes and the fact you taught yourself programming, you may need to get a part time coding job with a small business or do some consulting work to get yourself back in the game, it's much easier to find a job when you are working than when you are not

Look on craigslist for part time IT general work and start doing that, go to thumbtack.com or a similar site and start bidding on small jobs in your area.

In a few months you can have on your resume "I work as a contractor doing X" with previous gap in your resume vs. "I have not worked for 7 years and this will be the first time anyone has taken a chance on me or I have been able to do work in that time"

>>59349827
Okay, this is workable. "I wasn't sure what career I wanted to go into so I took my time and focused on hobbies and personal growth while taking classes. Once I find programming, I knew it was the right career for me and have become hooked. I've been working on a few personal projects and some open source contributions that I can show you..."

So, that's like a vague wishy washy acknowledgement of the gap and then steering the conversation elsewhere. Something like that would probably work for you 70% of the time. The cure is that you need enough skills to compensate for that gap.

>>59350012
That sounds like solid advice, thanks.

>>59348751
>32
>No degree
>no job in 7 years

You're irredeemable. Just give up now.
http://anewdomain.net/dont-hire-anyone-30-ageism-silicon-valley/

>>59349890
>. Maybe just "I was focusing on personal growth" or something vague like that

don't do that, the follow up question is "exactly what were you doing to focus on growth for 7 years" and if the answer is "nothing" he's fucked

it's also a lie and HR people will see right through vague shit like that for such a huge gap.

and "being late to discover programming" does not explain being NEET from 25 to 32 HR is going to want to know what was going on during that time and only the truth will do

>>59345131
You should make a Tinder/Grindr-like app that specializes in Trans men and their admirers.

Call it "Transtation" and have your app icon and logo be a sexy train.

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>retard can't do what's asked

>>59350012
Yeah, this is a good call. Contacting gigs are low risk for small companies. Once he has a few under his belt, it will really help full time gigs look past the gap in time. Also three or four 1 month contacts can really take up a lot of space on a resume, which is good for him.

>>59350053
I'm actually 27, NEET from 22 til now. I claimed I was 32 to help speed the discussion along. (I have a degree in 4chan memeology.)

I doubt that changes anything, but FWIW, there it is.

>>59350085
Kek, but also workable idea. Trannies are constantly complaining about having no dating a

>>59350101
>I'm actually 27, NEET from 22 til now. I claimed I was 32 to help speed the discussion along. (I have a degree in 4chan memeology.)
>I doubt that changes anything, but FWIW, there it is.

start working on being truthful anon

half truths and bullshit is not the answer to get yourself employed in this situation

>>59350053
It's not a lie, it's just super vague. You're right that he'll need something in your back pocket if they ask for follow-up. I just don't think he should volunteer a blemish on his past unless it's last resort. First try avoiding/glossing over it. With that said, I've never interviewed with HR, only development teams. He's not going to get into the type of company with an HR department any time soon, and that's probably for the better as small start-up environments will likely provide a wider range of tasks and will be more willing to look past his experience gap.

>>59350146
I didn't expect to get any responses and just wanted to shitpost to cheer myself up anon

t-thanks

>>59350151
>It's not a lie, it's just super vague.

explain how it's not a lie when he was sitting around playing video games the whole time, how is that "focusing on personal growth?"

Anyone is going to question pretty intently about a 7 year employment gap, especially since it sounds like he's basically never had a real job in his life and he's 27. It would have been better if he were 32 and had solid work experience/schooling from 18-25 to show. As it is he basically graduated high school dropped out of college and did nothing and that's his life story.

I agree he will do better at a start up or something but he is really going to have to show some skills in the interview

that's why I think doing odd jobs for awhile (fixing random printers and shit people post on thumbtack) will allow him to say he is currently in the workforce and the gap in employment (which is not really a gap, it's "never before employed at 27") is in the past and he is currently a productive member of society

>>59350101
I didn't start programming until I was 25. I started with the Django tutorial. I'm now 32, make six figures, and an the tech lead of a team of 5 devs. I don't know bubble sort off the top of my head and wouldn't want a job that would ask that type of question. Just continually research development techniques and work on being a good communicator and you'll go far.

>>59345451
>Most sorting algorithms just ilustrate some simple idea. If you understand the idea, you'll have no problem reconstructing the algorithm.

I remember being exposed to the common sorting algorithms in college in the late 90's. I've never had to think about most of them since that time. The only two things that are still in my mind are:
* Quicksort
* Performing a binary search of a sorted array or tree.

And the only reason those are there is because I've had to roll my own of each a couple times. 20 years. A *couple* of times.

Bubblesort? I was a brand new programmer and looked at Bubblesort and thought "this is shit." At which point my mind flagged it for deletion from my memory the moment the assignment that involved it was done.

My interview question would be "write a random sort" for shits and giggles.

>>59350048
>"ageism"
>"don't hire anyone over 30"
>not a lawsuit + potential DOJ investigation waiting to happen

If you can prove you have been discriminated against due to age then sue for cash and prizes.

>>59350356
>If you can prove you have been discriminated against due to age then sue for cash and prizes.

The Age Discrimination in Employment Act says that it's illegal for an employer to discriminate against you because of your age, but that only applies if you're age 40 or older

>>59350369
>implying a court wouldn't interpret it otherwise
An employer would have to be batshit insane to consider age when hiring. At least for any company with more than 50 people. You may think you're getting away with it, but this is the age of data mining. If an attorney or the DOJ even imagines that you're discriminating for any reason, they can find the evidence.

It's the equivalent of being a guy and fucking a girl with a history of 3 rape claims against other men plus 4 divorces and 5 kids by different daddies.

>>59345244
This.

you're a software dev, one of the most self employable skillsets in the world

and you want to be someones slave

Asking someone to sort something isn't even a programming test.
If you knew they had no previous exposure to sorting algorithms it would be an intelligence test.
And if you assumed they had exposure it would be a memory and syntax test.

So essentially it's a fucking pointless question.

>>59345058
i would put Win32 API as a strict requirement to filter out "smart but lazy", "self-taught" "prize-winning" "hackers"
on you're familiar with Win32, you can pick up virtually any larger API

>>59350048
>economy is doing kinda shit
>hire some new kid out of college who has no experience
>through work culture force them to work 10+ hour days
>they'll suck it up because they have no life and are lucky to have any job
>they gain some experience
>probably even a gf at some point
>suddenly they have life and enough experience that they don't have to take your bs
>they leave memevalley for some comfy tech job somewhere that is vastly cheaper
Silicon valley being full of young white and Asian males is probably more because they're willing to work there. Everyone older and women just wouldn't be ready to put up with the shit that is your average memevalley tech job.

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>Be in university
>Write ballin' master thesis about databases and shiiieeeeet
>Thesis gets published
>Start getting calls from companies about my thesis
>Get hired while still doing PhD
>Get promoted right after finishing PhD

I'm not even black, brown or female. Guess I got lucky!

>>59350922
>got shit done and got rewarded for it
>lucky

I didn't know times got so bad nowadays

>>59351358
They don't think it be like it is, but it do.

>>59345058
>self taught programmer
>here's a list of my previous projects and employers as well as their contact info
basically ends here
never had anyone ask for algorithms and shit, just long talks regarding pay and working hours

>>59351890
Indeed. I'd walk out if the place I'm interviewing for wants me to solve some kind of college tier problem during the interview. The same with spending a day or two with the "team" to see if you work well and fit into the "culture". Just a waste of my time since they are obviously looking for a person that just graduated or the special hipster snowflake that will code everything in D or some other dead language and then leave the company after 6 months for the next Google.

>>59345978
Use an AES-256 library faggot.

>>59349890
>>59350053
>>59350101
>>59350225
>>59350225
>>59350151
>>59350221
Thanks

>>59350315
>>59345451
>>59345244
You'd be right. Nobody worth a damn interviews for shit like that.
They'll use a different problem.
When I interviewed for IBM, one of the questions was "You have a range of a thousand numbers and one of them is missing--figure out which one."
So I just gave him the answers in increasing computational complexity, since he was looking for something specific. First answer, add all of the numbers up and subtract by the Gaussian summation of the range. O(n).
Second answer, lookup table. Get an array of bools the size of the range, set to true if the number exists. False is the one missing once you go through it again. O(n) time, O(n) space.
Third answer, dumbest possible way I could think of, you do a linear search for every single number in the range and break on failure. O(n^2).

This thread reminds me of my job search after graduating last summer
>Live in Finland just after some massive layoffs at Nokia, both the Microsoft owned phone division that was pretty much shut down and the networks division that just bought one of their main competitors and forced to sign a deal with the French government which stipulated that all redundancy layoffs were to happen in Finland
>Shitloads of experienced programmers with families, mortgages, etc. not picky about what kind of jobs they're ready to work
>If a job had an experience range, you should forget about it if you weren't close to the top or beyond it
>To top things off most interviews are screened by "HR specialists" who are really just glorified secretaries who can't look beyond years of experience on your CV
>Utterly useless when it comes to any kind of feedback beyond "Sorry, you were a good candidate but we went with someone who has more experience than you"
>Do well in all the interviews with the actual company, but they pretty always end up hiring someone more experienced than me
>One exception to this was a software QA role where everyone was given a task to solve and they went trough your solution during the interview
>Told that my solution was the by far most efficient one and all round best during the interview
>Get the email telling me I've been rejected a couple of weeks later, with the motivation that they we're looking for more of a "coder", i.e someone they can lowball in terms of wages as I could tell when they asked about what kind of wage I was looking for that they were going to low ball me
>Practically nobody ever gets back to you when they say they will and it's not to test if you'll get back to them because if you contact them to ask about the recruitment they'll tell you they're busy with loads of applications (see the point about the layoffs)

>>59345244
It does because you can't fire at will in most states.

>>59352328
>Did eventually get a job in December, but it came with both benefits and caveats
>Right now the company essentially has a reputation not unlike Exxon after the Valdez disaster and is going trough litigation for misleading investors and environmental destruction
>Had the main part of the business essentially nationalized, so they're right now building new businesses
>One of these businesses is a bankrupt tech company with a marketable product ready for sale that failed mostly due to poor marketing
>Said product however uses a lot of bespoke hardware, meaning that each unit is very expensive to make (we can now build a whole system at the cost of the main board) and manufacturing takes a long time
>Brought on to re-engineer and improve the product such that it can be made much cheaper trough bought in parts
>Had some minor experience working with FPGAs at university, now get to expand that knowledge rather greatly and learn VHDL (something I planned on doing on my own time at some point)
>Literally got to spend the last month self-teaching myself how to work with Xilinx FPGAs, learning VHDL and how to use linux in embedded applications

>>59350221
>Anyone is going to question pretty intently about a 7 year employment gap, especially since it sounds like he's basically never had a real job in his life and he's 27. It would have been better if he were 32 and had solid work experience/schooling from 18-25 to show. As it is he basically graduated high school dropped out of college and did nothing and that's his life story.
So tl;dr try to find contract work? Is that doable for someone with a shitty resume? I assume they'll just look at a portfolio, right?

>>59352458
Long gaps in work experience always get called out. The only thing that could save you is involvement in open source projects to show you've kept current.

>>59349827
If you had money in the bank, then that's a solid enough reason right there.

>I had money in the bank
>I took classes part time, bouncing around trying to figure out what I wanted to do with my life
>Once I found programming, I realized that this is what I want to do when I grow up.

Taking a year or five off when you've got money in the bank isn't terribly uncommon for programmers.

Having no clear career vision until recently isn't a deal breaker. A lot of us bounced around between career paths before discovering computers. I think something about programming draws that type of personality in.

Not every employer will get it, but enough will. Some will want to see more experience, and it might be a bit of a slog to get it, but once you do, you'll be fine as long as you have a good attitude and keep your skills sharp.

Also, if I could tell myself one thing back when I was in your shoes, it would be to apply for jobs before you're ready to. Every job interview I failed taught me a crapton more than I could have learned otherwise.

>>59349299
>>when HR is dumber than you and it shows
I worked for global big company for 7 years and they had my name in reverse in their database and couldn't find any details about me.

Glassdoor review is coming up soon.

>>59352480
>The only thing that could save you is involvement in open source projects to show you've kept current.
and that will help with contract work? What if the contract job I'm applying for is e.g. Android dev and I have an Android app published (not just a shitty pajeet fart app, but something practical, CRUD etc.)? Am I still SOL or is that the right path?

>>59352493
Not wrong. It's a well told story. Especially if your interviewer is older. A lot of older guys in software went to college with undeclared majors or went to school for something related to mechanical, electrical, chemical, etc. engineering.

>>59352493
>Also, if I could tell myself one thing back when I was in your shoes, it would be to apply for jobs before you're ready to. Every job interview I failed taught me a crapton more than I could have learned otherwise.
>>59352516

You guys think I really stand a chance just being honest? I lived on savings while bouncing around in classes from literally 22-27, and only had shitty burger jobs from 18-22? I don't know if I can tone my 'tism down enough to make that sound even remotely good. It sounds terrible in my head.

>>59345340
It does however say that he's willing to go outside the rules and go better then he is asked to, not everything can be so black and white

>>59352515
That's something we'd expect with an already good or strong resume.

Working on solo projects aren't always impressive, especially crud apps. Since you did it yourself we don't know if you learned the proper design paradigms you would've in a group.

>Did you use an ORM
>How did you pick your database?
>Did you use RESTful interfaces?
>If you wrote a client in angular or react, how hard would it be?
...etc

>>59352557
Thanks. So from your perspective, what is the best and most practical route for me at the moment?

>>59345058
>How's your job hunt goin?
Poorly. The demand is high at the job market right now and HR writes up the the positions with additional arbitrary criteria that discourage potential candidates that would be just good enough otherwise. I don't need a stellar student or people with real experience, really just more meat for the grinder of the drudge tasks.
Got one promising girl recently, but seeing reactions the office had when she was over for the interview... well, I'll rather be one person short than at full numbers with 90% of the team distracted from work.

>>59352549
Absolutely. We had 3 candidates fresh out of college. One of them worked as a server and a chef for about 5 years until going back to college to do software. If it weren't for the fact we were told only to hire 1 person, he would've gotten a job.

He had the right personality, he was willing to learn, didn't lie about what he didn't know, be had deal dealt with difficult teams and lead them,and had a portfolio of work that showed he knew enough. We have him stellar points on personally because of his work as a chef and server too.

Career switches aren't high on our radar of things to care about.

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>>59352450
Tieto?

>>59352602
Start committing to a decently known open source project. Aim for something related to databases and controller layer logic. Be knowledgeable at js stuff.

>>59352636
Talvivaara

>>59352612
>fresh out of college
>career switches
Just in case you missed my above posts, I'm just a NEET who has done some burger flipping and table bussing. Are you implying that I should try to spin this somehow from this perspective that you're describing? A software job would be my first 'real' job that doesn't involve asking if someone wants fries with their order or shooting the shit with customers while restocking shelves.

>>59352612
Crazy amount of typos in that. Sorry. Cellphone toilet posting.

>>59352656
Do you have a degree?

File: shieeeeeeeeeeet.gif (2MB, 256x193px) Image search: [Google]

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>>59352647

>>59352674
No, I have nothing other than a pile of worthless credits (with a good GPA, although I understand that that's meaningless). I could maybe finish an associate's degree in two semesters, because while I have plenty of credits, I still need a lot of classes to finish any given software program.

>>59352707
Get an internship and finish your degree. If you go in with just a degree you'll get a jr. position. If you go in with a degree, 1+ year work experience, and a good recommendation, you'll get a sr. position. The pay difference is usually around 2x's.

With no degree, you don't make it pass talent scout.

>>59352707
>I could maybe finish an associate's degree in two semesters
If that's the case I would suggest graduating.

>>59352696
On the bright side at least it's for a separate entity about to be spun off as a separate company (which is why I didn't realise it was Talvivaara before I looked up the address when I was going in for my in-person interview) that I can put on my resume even thou my contract is with them any my paycheck comes from their coffers.

>>59352740
>>59352739
Oh yeah. To add. An associates is the same as having no degree.

>>59352503
>they had my name in reverse in their database and couldn't find any details about me

Haha how does that even happen in the first place?

>>59352756
>Oh yeah. To add. An associates is the same as having no degree.
...so I should not bother (which is what I thought in the first place). I can't afford to finish a bachelor's degree right now.

I've asked before and people suggested building a decent portfolio and taking any random codemonkey-tier position that would have me. I'm willing to relocate, too, so I'm assuming that this gives me a bit more leverage when it comes to getting my foot in the door. Is this the wrong way to go?

>>59352756
That's not true. You can get government programming work with an associates degree, I see the job listings for it.

>>59352314
you forgot to thank me for this mate >>59349979

>>59352792
>That's not true. You can get government programming work with an associates degree, I see the job listings for it.
your name has to be tyrone for that tho

>>59352789
portfolio is better for start ups and small businesses.
internships and experience better for established employers. (although portfolio becomes relevant again if you are applying to be a lead or project manager type role)

>>59352786
Common with foreign names. Hell for some people I can't tell if they're supposed to be man or woman.

>>59352840
>portfolio is better for start ups and small businesses.
Makes sense if I'm taking a one-off low-paid position, right?

>>59352836
Not really. Its just random jobs with states and municipalites. Automating office work, light data crunching for various government departments, working for schools, etc.

>>59352328
You're doing something wrong if you can't find a programming job in Finland. Im literally bombarded with job posts

>>59352862
How's Finland overall?
Is rapefugee cuckoldry as bad as /pol/ would make us believe?
And can foreigner survive there speaking just English (and some Slav gibberish)?

>>59352549
Being honest is really your best shot. Your story sounds shitty to you now, but once you get a couple years of software experience under your belt, you'll realize how reasonable it is.

The only reason it doesn't sound good yet is because you have yet to prove that you're ready to be a grown up now. Getting that chance will be hard, but once you get it, prove yourself, and the story will make sense.

I should know. It's basically my story. Except I was mooching off my parents' money and consistently failing/withdrawing from classes. Never got any certs or degree.

A couple absolute madmen with startups decided to use me for cheap contract labor. Then I did an internship for a year. After a year of that, I decided to start applying for real jobs, eventually got offered one, and then the company I was interning at beat the shit out of that offer with their own offer.

Hell, there's not even a gap on my resume anymore because I don't list my shitty burger jobs or my 6 years of college with nothing to show. I don't hide it, but most people just don't really seem to care.

>>59352458
>So tl;dr try to find contract work? Is that doable for someone with a shitty resume? I assume they'll just look at a portfolio, right?

I have seen jobs on craigslist that were "We are replacing all the desktops in our office and we need to hire a helper for a month at $10 to help the team carry the towers in and out of the building"

do shit like that, it's work and they will hire nearly anyone. Go to thumbtack.com and bid on jobs, the jobs are often "My printer used to work now it does not, help" shit like that, you do it for $30 and do one a day and at least you can say "I am a contractor, I fix tech related problems for clients in the area" then list some of the jobs you have done such as desktop support etc.. you could even build up a few references from small businesses if you do a good job

this will help immensely get your foot in the door for a real job vs. coming from basically never having worked before

>>59352964
>Is rapefugee cuckoldry as bad as /pol/ would make us believe?
If you're this fucking retarded you should stay out. We have two beggers in my 200k city.

>>59345251
Very relevant HN https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13739329

Notice the top comment: YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO REASON THROUGH PROBLEMS WITH THINKING. Even if you've never seen BubbleSort before, you should be able to recall what it does and reason through it in front of an interviewer. It's in every intro to CompSci class.

OP also fucked up because BubbleSort is very useful in programming games, working with small datasets in linked lists, or when bounded by network/IO speed. Games often bubble sort world objects by depth. There is a small performance gain to be had by drawing closer objects first, so that you can depth-cull expensive pixels behind them. Game engines can run several iterations of bubble sort, but stop before sorting the set completely, since the z-buffer will ensure correctness.

Don Knuth writes an entire chapter about BubbleSort and how you can optimize it by hand for certain things. That's what OP should have done, implemented it then optimized it to impress his interviewers instead of repeating a foolish mantra that "bubblesort is bad". It proves he is a cookie cutter developer just cut and pasting information and not able to solve problems or do analysis by himself.

>>59352792
>>59352756
>>59352966
>>59352979
Okay, trying to reconcile all of these things, what is my absolute best option right now?
>continue learning to code, completely devoting my primal autism to it
>get what seems to me to be yet another burger job but this time fixing printers (?) and such and use my downtime for coding
?

For whatever reason I'm good at focusing and sticking with learning new skills on my own, which is partly why I got into programming in the first place.

>>59352328
>>59352450
We've literally been constantly hiring devs, testers, devops, and anyone else that has anything to do with tech for the last 3 years. Like anyone with any experience, or even without experience that wants a job has gotten one. And this is in one of the cities that had quite a big Nokia/MS presence. And based on what I've heard from others they have the same experience.

Like >>59352862 said if you can't find a tech job in Finland you're doing something wrong.

>>59352964
As long as you're not in Helsinki it's a great country. Well at least if you don't mind the massive taxes.

>>59353102
Forgot to mention, I have a few grand in the bank still so I won't starve for a few more months probably, but after that I'm SOL and I have about a year at most to find something. So I can either sperg out and spend the next e.g. 3 months giving it my best shot and learning some serious software dev, or I can get a potentially worthless job and kinda tough it out. Which is why I'm leaning toward the software job thing—I don't really want to make $8/hour now but not be able to afford rent when the time comes.

>>59352756
>Oh yeah. To add. An associates is the same as having no degree.

basically true

>>59352862
I'm bombarded by programming offers from recruiters in Canada too but they all pay bullshit so I never answer.

This means I have to chase that sweet USD waterfall and jump through the whiteboard hoops in order to get a (remote) job. My last interview consisted of this:

"Show us how you would implement X"
"Ok, can we optimize this?"
"Ok, can we still optimize this some more?"

>>59353132
Where's your company located?

>>59353132
Well, it that's the choice between 5k a month at 50% tax and 500 a month at 33% tax (as I have now) I think I can cope.

>>59352862
If by posts you mean ads for job postings then I get those to all the time. However to actually get hired right now when you're just out of university with little to show for in terms of real world experience is another ball game. I got about a year and a month's worth of paid job experience during my master's studies, but it turns out that's not enough for jobs titled "junior" as got plenty of rejection emails telling me they hired someone more experienced. For my current job, which is for the most part C++ development, I ended up competing against people in their upper 40s.

The only exception right now seems to be in webdev stuff, which I obviously didn't do all that much of in my Comp. Eng program. Specially the demand for people experienced in Javascript and JS-based frameworks like Node.js, AngularJS and jQuery seems to be pretty great.

>>59352964
Seeing how we're denying about 3/4 of all asylum applications I'd say /pol/ is being it's usual Trump-tier delusional self.

>>59348751
please kill ur self :(

>>59353102
>Okay, trying to reconcile all of these things, what is my absolute best option right now?
>>continue learning to code, completely devoting my primal autism to it

I would not do this, you have spent too much time NEET and out of society, you need to get out there and fix some computers, it gives you a reason to get up and go somewhere every day and talk to business owners and clients and build social skills needed in the work place, it will build your confidence to go walk into someplace for a real interview if you have been getting up to go to work every day for several months

cocoon mode autism self learning is not going to help you with that and you could spend months learning or working on shit that is not directly transferable to real world work because you are self teaching from scratch

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>>59353271
>I would not do this, you have spent too much time NEET and out of society, you need to get out there and fix some computers, it gives you a reason to get up and go somewhere every day and talk to business owners and clients and build social skills needed in the work place, it will build your confidence to go walk into someplace for a real interview if you have been getting up to go to work every day for several months
>
>cocoon mode autism self learning is not going to help you with that and you could spend months learning or working on shit that is not directly transferable to real world work because you are self teaching from scratch
FWIW I am not socially retarded and I get up at six AM every day to go to the gym. I don't really need yet another McJob or whatever to build confidence if that's what you're getting at. If you imagine that wageslave vs. NEET meme, I think I'm about as close as anyone without a trust fund can get IRL.

What I'm saying is that I'm not trying to avoid the real world by doing the autsitic studying thing, I'm just legitimately trying to take the shortest path to a real job that will ensure that I'm not homeless in about a year. But if you still think I'm wrong, I will take your advice to heart.

>>59353199
Oulu

>>59353230
Yeah I don't mind the taxes that much. Obviously smaller taxes would always be nicer but since I'm single without any kids I'm still living pretty comfily.

>>59353132
Maybe you're living in a city where there aren't all that many developers to begin with, but here in Helsinki recruiters are always complaining that there's just so many people applying to every job.

The fact that you've basically hired everyone who's applied means you clearly haven't even gotten that many applications to begin with.

>>59353271
Forget about employers, what he should do is write his own projects and build shit. Eventually somebody will come along and either pay him to develop his own software (happened to me, wrote a kernel mod and recruited through the Debian mailing list) or he will at least have something to show for himself and can apply for the myriad of shitty Django/Python remote jobs out there (edx.org hires remote programmers to maintain their pile of django, so does udacity)

>>59353374
>Forget about employers, what he should do is write his own projects and build shit. Eventually somebody will come along and either pay him to develop his own software (happened to me, wrote a kernel mod and recruited through the Debian mailing list) or he will at least have something to show for himself and can apply for the myriad of shitty Django/Python remote jobs out there (edx.org hires remote programmers to maintain their pile of django, so does udacity)
This is what I had in mind honestly.
(I am >>59353336)

I'm just trying to take care of business in the shortest period of time. I think I'm making good progress so far but it's hard to gauge on my own. It's all so uncertain until I can actually get that first real job.

>>59353336
>What I'm saying is that I'm not trying to avoid the real world by doing the autsitic studying thing, I'm just legitimately trying to take the shortest path to a real job that will ensure that I'm not homeless in about a year. But if you still think I'm wrong, I will take your advice to heart.

Get certified in something if you are going to do that, it will give you a specific goal to study for MCSE or Magento or anything really.

But being able to say you currently work vs. have not worked since you were 22 at mcdonalds would open some doors even if you do it part time

Hell I have a degree and a good IT job and they still call me when the fucking printer breaks, don't think you are above fixing random shit

That's what a lot of IT is

>>59353372
Well it's not everyone that's applied but we've had constant flow of new employees for the last few years.

And some of our summer boys/girls literally have no experience before coming in. And if they prove to be good they get to continue after the summer as part time when school allows.

>>59353337
>since I'm single without any kids I'm still living pretty comfily.
Isn't that the very reason why you're paying high taxes? People with kids usually have tax deductions or some such pardon.

>>59349015
How would you figure what a "bubble" is when sorting?

>>59353336
If you want a job
weworkremotely.com
jobspresso.co
hnhiring.me (monthly hiring thread on hacker news)

You can also just learn Wordpress, and make $30/hr USD literally everywhere which isn't bad if you live in nowhere so not NYC or San Francisco where cost of living is extreme.

I started in QA, then read Vol 4A, The Art of Computer Programming so I learned how to generate all testing cases using combinatorial algorithms. I scripted this and uploaded it to a public git, somebody found it and hired me as a developer.

>>59353457
>weworkremotely.com
>jobspresso.co
>hnhiring.me
Are these legitimate avenues for a person like me who would have nothing but a portfolio? I looked into upwork this week while I've been learning Python and it seemed like complete nonsense—nothing but Indians who charge $2/hour and employers who want to pay $1/hour.

>>59353374
>Forget about employers, what he should do is write his own projects and build shit. Eventually somebody will come along and either pay him to develop his own software

depends on the person, one person you can lock in a room and he can learn to develop a kernel mod by himself, another person can take classes for years and fail a fizzbuzz quiz at the interview

To me he would be rolling the dice on if he can learn enough to impress a coding interviewer with his skills in 3-6 months alone with no real direction and 7 years of NEET to explain away

>>59353427
So you don't really know how many people who have actually applied to your open positions, but because you've been recruiting people you're assuming that people don't have any problems getting hired?

Seriously, when was the last time you tried getting hired with little in terms of real world experience? Because we've I've asked around among people with roughly the same amount of experience I hear the same story over and over again. I've even run into cases where coders have had to take on jobs as IT helpdesk staff.

>>59353336
Honestly if you just want to get any real job and tech isn't a requirement getting into some trade is a good option.

>>59353442
I'm not even sure if they can claim deductions here but parents are literally paid monthly for having kids so that's pretty much the same. However kids a really fucking expensive and some small government subsidies aren't going to help that much.

>>59353501
Upwork
Toptal
ect

Those are all 'contractor' sites. The sites I posted are just job boards they aren't whoring yourself for the lowest dollar competing with pakistanis but Toptal isn't too bad for starting out, since you can advertise yourself as a jr dev and they may pair you with somebody intermediate if your price is right (like $25/hr or lower).

>>59353415
>. I think I'm making good progress so far but it's hard to gauge on my own. It's all so uncertain until I can actually get that first real job.

for your first "real" job in programming (say a job that makes over 35k with some benefits) you will be competing against people with college degrees in computing and relevant work histories without gaps in their resumes

you might have to take jobs you don't consider "real" before you beat someone out for a "real" job

>>59353510
>depends on the person, one person you can lock in a room and he can learn to develop a kernel mod by himself, another person can take classes for years and fail a fizzbuzz quiz at the interview
>To me he would be rolling the dice on if he can learn enough to impress a coding interviewer with his skills in 3-6 months alone with no real direction and 7 years of NEET to explain away
I understand where you're coming from. I essentially just want to know if it's possible whatsoever. I guess what I'm getting at is that while I am a NEET, I'm not just a fat neckbeard in my mom's basement. I have a regular routine, I'm possibly intelligent (then again I am here on /g/, so maybe not), I'm of sound mind, I can feign normalcy and talk to other normies in social situations, etc.

Basically, as long as I know it's possible that this could work out as long as I produce actual results, I am going to dedicate my autismal mental stamina to learning software dev. But if you really think that's not gonna happen regardless of my capabilities, I'll take that into consideration.

>>59353558
>you might have to take jobs you don't consider "real" before you beat someone out for a "real" job
Any examples? When I say "real" I just mean something that isn't flipping burgers for $8/hour, and is preferably relevant to software dev in some way. I don't feel that I'm above the things you and others mention above, but if I can get my foot in the door and get paid $20k to code and maybe do other things around an office at a startup, I'd take that in a heartbeat over maybe a respectable IT job which pays more money (assuming I could even get the latter which I doubt).

>>59353141
Depends where you live. I am in the NYC area and I can't get diddly for jobs despite graduating from a good Uni with honors. Your knowledge won't get you anywhere in my market, its all about that prior work experience.

>>59353536
I work in web development and as you said already that's in demand right now.

>>59353600
>Depends where you live. I am in the NYC area and I can't get diddly for jobs despite graduating from a good Uni with honors. Your knowledge won't get you anywhere in my market, its all about that prior work experience.
willing and able to move almost anywhere within the lower 48 US states as long as the job will pay enough to cover rent in the area after the first month or so

How do i into job in nyc, have node/react (and a bunch of other frameworks, no degree) experience but ive only gotten 1 phone call so far, where should i be applying, i apply to 5 jobs~ per week, have decent projects

>>59353577
I can't tell you how possible it is to learn to become a good developer in that time because I've been programming since high school, but I can tell you that I got a well paying job with no degree or real prior experience at age 30 after being NEET ever since college
>>59353625
go to meetups, people are always whoring themselves out, both employers and people looking to be hired

>>59353620
which is a good attitude to have but how do you think that is gonna work through the interview process ? When they ask you to meet up in person and you can't cause you are halfway across the country the local people who have good interviews are going to get your spot before they worry about working with you.

>>59353597
weworkremotely has a bunch of remote customer service jobs just answering emails or support tickets. Apply to those first, then while you work there you can get into development inside that company. They pay way more than min wage many are SF bay area places paying $70k/USD year for tier 1 support.

I know for example Github pays $70k a year to answer support tickets. Go on stackexchange and start being helpful for git questions, then apply there. Read the 'hacker's guide to git' or 'git from the bottom up'.

>>59353672
>I can't tell you how possible it is to learn to become a good developer in that time because I've been programming since high school, but I can tell you that I got a well paying job with no degree or real prior experience at age 30 after being NEET ever since college
Damn, are you willing to share any other details?

>>59353677
I figure it opens up the possibility for a few extra opportunities, I don't have high expectations.

>>59353597
>Any examples?

internships

Jobs such as working as an assistant to a web developer which might include getting paid $12 per hour to go around to the local businesses whose sites he manages and getting text or taking photos of products/whatever for the website.

stuff like that that is not really programming and won't pay that well

like >>59353536 said, I too have seen people with degrees in MIS or IT have to take jobs on a helpdesk or some other bullshit because it's all the could find

For every tale of "i just coded some shit in my basement and put it on git and someone called me and offered me a $50,000/year job with no experience or degree" there is 5 stories of people with degrees taking lower positions or worse

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2304096/Graduate-physics-PhD-31-fell-death-block-flats-taking-job-centre-qualified-for.html

>>59353707
>internships
I assumed these are only really available to college students, am I wrong?

>>59353577
>Basically, as long as I know it's possible that this could work out as long as I produce actual results, I am going to dedicate my autismal mental stamina to learning software dev. But if you really think that's not gonna happen regardless of my capabilities, I'll take that into consideration.

you would be rolling the dice, maybe you can pull it off, maybe not, if not in 6 months you are going to be forced to start looking for any job and get stuck working retail again

it's impossible to say

>>59353697
>weworkremotely has a bunch of remote customer service jobs just answering emails or support tickets. Apply to those first
Thanks, I'll definitely look into it, although a lot of remote positions seem sort of dubious to me.

>>59353743
>you would be rolling the dice, maybe you can pull it off, maybe not, if not in 6 months you are going to be forced to start looking for any job and get stuck working retail again
Well yeah, I got that far on my own heh

>>59353730
yes. the vast majority are. although not all are so its worth checking.

>>59353730
>I assumed these are only really available to college students, am I wrong?

i thought you had been taking classes

>>59353795
>i thought you had been taking classes
years ago

>>59353777
>yes. the vast majority are
figured

quality digits btw

>>59353707
>For every tale of "i just coded some shit in my basement and put it on git and someone called me and offered me a $50,000/year job with no experience or degree" there is 5 stories of people with degrees taking lower positions or worse

this

>>59353672
>no degree or real prior experience at age 30 after being NEET ever since college
how'd you overcome the gap / unemployment on your resume?

>>59353704
>>59353857

> Damn, are you willing to share any other details?
i can share my tips for success
- actually know how to do software development and be good at it
- have a nice portfolio of projects
- do some of those race to the bottom contracting jobs on freelancer sites first so you have something to point at
- find a way to go to where the jobs are if they're not near you
- pick a smaller company with no or minimal HR/"process" that would screen you outright, this goes without saying
- don't be an autist
companies are looking for people who can solve their problems and help them make money first and foremost and if they're publicly hiring that means they go through legions of drooling idiots who are dumber and less capable than you are even if you're not qualified at all.
once you've seen the hiring process from the inside it becomes much less scary.

>>59353879
Thanks, I really appreciate the advice.

>>59353619
Good for you then because that's right now the one thing that's hot right now and Nokia was not doing much of it, so you don't have to compete with ex-Nokia staff.

You're literally not in the same worker pool as ex Nokia devs. I'm so heavily in it that when I got hired, the two other people who got hired at the same time were both former Nokia Siemens Networks developers.

Mind you, even there you do have to have at least a decent amount of experience. Almost got hired at one job with my pretty limited experience in Django and at least got to send in an application for another by learning basic Node.js.

The latter is a pretty REEE inducing story:
>Recruitment company is looking for people to fill multiple positions at a client company and I end up interviewing with them
>They end up recommending me for a Node.js position because I've done a bit of JS
>End up learning basic Node.js to do a programming assignment they send me
>Send it in when I'm done with it
>Instructions said to send the project as a .zip file
>They contact me 3 weeks later to ask if I can send them a dropbox link because my solution, which contains a single .js file, a couple of .html forms and a couple of those javascript form files (can't be arsed to look up what they're actually called), gets stuck in their spam filter
>Send them a dropbox link the same day
>They call me up a month later to say they're sorry that the recruitment process has taken so long, but it's still ongoing and I'm still in it
>Tell them that I already took up a job offer from another company so they don't need to consider me anymore

Question for those that work remotely and charge hourly

Do you charge the time you spend thinking about the best way to solve a problem?

Often I will spend half the time thinking, then coding, and I don't know if I should charge for that.

So I am NEET out of college with a bachelors in CS. I fucked up and didn't do an internship and I have no related work experience. For job posting that mention work experience as a requirement should I still apply or will I just get autofiltered out ? Some postings I see 1-2 year requirements and I wonder if I could still maybe make it. The longer stuff like 4 years plus I would say no and I am not trying to apply for.

>>59353537
>Honestly if you just want to get any real job and tech isn't a requirement getting into some trade is a good option.
Can you make any specific recommendations? I suppose I'm not unwilling to look into a trade, just far less interested in that than I am in programming, but as far as I'm concerned they seem pretty similar at the end of the day.

>>59353539
>Those are all 'contractor' sites. The sites I posted are just job boards they aren't whoring yourself for the lowest dollar competing with pakistanis but Toptal isn't too bad for starting out, since you can advertise yourself as a jr dev and they may pair you with somebody intermediate if your price is right (like $25/hr or lower).
Thanks, I'll check them out. I've never heard of Toptal before now.

>>59353962

still apply, it can't hurt and there may be a shortage of people with real CS degrees in your area

File: 1445138568554.png (91KB, 600x578px) Image search: [Google]

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Question to other finns:

Are internships a big thing in Finland? Do you need to get an internship in your first 3 years of studying if you want to be employable later on?

>>59353999
Well it hurts me because the application process is pretty time intensive and I am really tired of getting auto emailed rejection form responses that telling me nothing. It really kills morale and probably leads to worse application on jobs I could actually make the cut for.

>>59353919
The bigger the company the longer the recruitment process. Mine took like 2 months between doing the interview and actually signing contract.

File: Screen Shot 2017-03-11 at 4.39.42 PM.png (682KB, 941x618px) Image search: [Google]

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>>59353879
>>59353795
>>59353777
>>59353743
>>59353707
>>59353697
For whatever it's worth, I've put about 120 hours into it so far and I've covered a bunch of stuff.
>basic operators, loops, etc.
>classes, inheritance
>searching/sorting
>trees
>a little bit of big O notation
>json, started looking into restful API design
mostly with Python

I also have some basic projects done:
- a "complete"—not shippable but all of the functions are there—mobile 4chan client, the only thing I haven't implemented yet is ffmpeg for webm support because I don't know how to do that yet
- some Python bots which use the Twitter API to take commands from tweets and download files using DCC

I'm just feeling sort of uncertain as to whether I should bother to continue or not.

>pic unrelated

>>59354183
I should note that I'm really fucking good at Apple inherits from Fruit btw

>>59354183
You are doing the reverse of what you should be doing. You should look up jobs that you would actually take and then build yourself up to meet those requirements. Trying to build yourself up and then go fishing for jobs is nothing but pure luck and will probably just lead to disappointment. Like don't worry about the theoretical job or theoretical employer, worry about the real job offers.

>>59354254
>You are doing the reverse of what you should be doing. You should look up jobs that you would actually take and then build yourself up to meet those requirements. Trying to build yourself up and then go fishing for jobs is nothing but pure luck and will probably just lead to disappointment. Like don't worry about the theoretical job or theoretical employer, worry about the real job offers.
Okay, thanks

>>59354102
That doesn't just apply to big companies. I interviewed at a company that was only a couple of dozen employees and the interviewer was the co-founder of the company. Still took me about two months from the first interview until I got rejected after the second interview and programming assignment.

I don't mind long recruitment processes, but when it takes a month just to get rejected by the recruitment company and don't even get an interview with the actual company it just makes you angry when it happens over and over again.

That example I wrote was a company called Student Work recruiting for FCG, a company that was at the time supposedly looking so hard to recruit a lot of new workers that they had to organise their own job fair.

>>59353919
Literally over half of our current staff is ex-Nokia. Used to be even more a like 2 years ago.

I've got like 4 years of total experience.

>>59353969
A lot of them are similar at the end of the day. But stuff like electricians and plumbers are doing pretty good. Especially if you're in the US where everyone is fed the you need to go to college to be anything bs. I know a few tradesmen here in Finland and they're doing pretty good for themselves even when we actually don't have the same level of everyone needs college and trades are taken as an actual option. It's obviously more physical job than sitting in an office but you might wanna take a look into them.

>>59354029
If you can you should. It helps in getting your foot into a company. And if you're at all competent you'll probably have a job after graduating. If you insist on not getting one it's not the end of the world but your job hunting will be harder.

>>59354029
If by internships you mean the murrican type where you get paid next to nothing, they're not a thing because they're illegal. Some companies do have summer jobs for students that they use to recruit talent, but companies generally tend to look for people to work full time with proper pay from the get-go.

However, don't come here if you're not doing webdev. C/C++ and hardware is pretty much packed with ex Nokia employees looking for jobs after thousands of people with those skills have been let go in the last 18 months.

>>59354347
>Literally over half of our current staff is ex-Nokia. Used to be even more a like 2 years ago.

That doesn't really detract from the fact most of those people obviously didn't do webdev stuff while they were at Nokia. They essentially had to start almost from zero in terms of webdev stuff meaning that they had a much more even playing field against other people applying for the same webdev jobs.

>I've got like 4 years of total experience.

So you've obvious never had to compete with mass layoffs of experienced staff in what you're trying to get employed in...

>>59354511
have you?

>>59350922
>excel at my field
>so lucky i got a job
For a genius u sure r an idiot, baka

So when jobs ask for 5 year experience in least say react, or other sht wht exactly r u expected to do, im getting job offers for experience roles but i want to know whats expected b4 i bullsh t my way into a job

>>59351890
>never had anyone ask for algorithms and shit,
Just curious what kind of places have you worked? Not 'tech companies'?

>>59354412
There's tons of C/C++ jobs, esp now in webdev because of webassembly. If you know C/C++ you can easily get into security industry too, Accuvant(Optis) or NCC Group will hire anybody who knows C and has some curiosity (or experience, read the Web Application Hacker's Handbook and find some bugs) as a jr consultant to learn haxxoring and appsec.

IBM also hires these developers for bytecode analysis and other shit. You will never not have a job if you know C or C++.

For anybody who wants webdev bullshit see the Front End Handbook https://www.gitbook.com/book/frontendmasters/front-end-handbook-2017/details

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>amazon will send either an offer or a rejection on monday

>>59356180
warehouse?

>>59345244
>coding bootcamp grads

>>59356333
AWS, kindle, or marketplace

>>59357755
You'll quit before your probation is up, guaranteed. You're literally better off being rejected.

>>59357821
>You're literally better off being rejected.
How do you figure? The signing/stock/relocation bonuses are all paid back prorated, so even spending just a few months before getting PIP'd would still be profitable.

>>59357960
It's because of the attitude with regard to employee and work management at amazon in every software-related part except for their research division.

>>59345451

Thanks anon, I feel enlightened after reading your post.

>>59358018
Can you go into specifics?

>>59358018
>>59360035
They're not set up to retain talent. The model is churn & burn, then send engineers to greener pastures.

Check out the NYT hit piece from a year ago or so.
For some, it's worth it because the amazon brand on a resume will invite nonstop poaching from every other tech company in the world

>>59360035
>Young tech workers looking to advance their careers enjoy working at Amazon in the same way that people looking to get ripped enjoy going to prison. Unless you land yourself one of the few cushy gigs in the joint (or you're a masochist), you're probably not really going to enjoy your time there, but put in your 2-5 years and you gonna end up YOKED

>>59357960
There is literally no reason to work at Amazon when Microsoft is across the bridge, pays better, and doesn't drive you like a slave.

>>59360153
kek, thanks

I've been employed in the software engineering industry for a couple years now and have been writing software of my own for a few years before that, but fuck I still hate whiteboard interviews. 9 times out of 10, the questions asked are 5000% irrelevant to what I actually do on a day to day basis, so even if I knew this shit at one point it's faded. This is doubly true for companies like Google and Facebook where your job is usually to be the lord of that one button tucked away in a menu on a page that gets looked at twice a year.

>>59345058
>I am hiring a new dev for this company
>This company has deadlines, has teams, has goals, has needs, has budgets
>Do I hire the guy who listen to instructions?
>Do I hire the guy who does not listen to instructions?
>Hmm....

>>59361259
>This is doubly true for companies like Google and Facebook where your job is usually to be the lord of that one button tucked away in a menu on a page that gets looked at twice a year.
say what now

>>59361397
I work at Google. This is what it's like.

>This is doubly true for companies like Google and Facebook where your job is usually to be the lord of that one button tucked away in a menu on a page that gets looked at twice a year.
That doesn't actually happen.

>>59361429
what does it mean though? being lord of a button?
does it meaning owning the feature you implemented? isn't that kind of a good thing since these companies don't seem to be the type that have huge employee turnovers.

>>59361397
This anon >>59361429 isn't me, but I've interviewed at both Facebook and Google and have worked under people who used to work there.

What I was saying is that your work as an engineer is typically pretty dry, boring stuff with extremely limited potential for impact, e.g. you're in charge of a nuance of a fraction of a feature. As an example, one of the guys I interviewed at Facebook was the head engineer in charge of a single menu within Facebook Messenger. That's all he did.

The pay and perks are great. It's the perfect job if you're in your 30s, are planning to buy a house, and have a kid on the way, but anybody who doesn't need such a degree of stability is going to be bored to tears by unfulfilling work and negligible impact on the company.

Compare this to your typical small software startup with anywhere between 5 and 100 employees, where a single engineer can own anywhere between 20% and 100% of a project and you're almost always learning something.

>>59361622
>Compare this to your typical small software startup with anywhere between 5 and 100 employees, where a single engineer can own anywhere between 20% and 100% of a project and you're almost always learning something.
Damn

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>>59348870
Wow, good luck dude. Don't worry about the shrink. Most of the people who go into the fields are crazy anyway.

reading threads like these make me sad and hopeless

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>>59352610
>Got one promising girl recently, but seeing reactions the office had when she was over for the interview... well, I'll rather be one person short than at full numbers with 90% of the team distracted from work.
That's pretty fucking sexist. Are you an ugly girl?

>>59362179
Oh no.. she has a broken tooth :( The state of dental care in Japan is truly deplorable.

>>59356044
well the closest thing to a tech company I worked at was a VPN company.
Helped develop some security software for a bank too.
Other than that I mostly work with companies that want to expand into 'the cloud', so I usually develop server software for taxi companies, restaurant companies, hotels etc.

self taught. never got an interview. gave up.

>>59360279
Well, microsoft treats its employees real bad and don't actually pay that well. They don't slavedrive, but they don't give you the resources you need to do your job either. They pay 50% with golden handcuffs and 50% with actual salary, and salary alone isn't too good. So if you want to stay at MS for 5 years, don't want to be challenged and usually expect not being able to do your work 20-30% of the time you "work" there, it's a much better choice, sure.

>>59361622
Plus, if you join the right startup, you'll make more money than you could possibly have gotten working for years at the large company, on top of which you're guaranteed to have a much higher-paying job if you do join that large company later. I really think startups are the way to go until you're too old for them.

>not implementing intelligent design sort
Get out heathen

>>59363810
What do you do now? Do you have a github?

>>59364194
>working at a start-up
Or you might end up not getting your salary when they fold and will live on a low salary as the company don't have any money.
Sure you might learn a lot and get a better job afterwords, but then you need to find the right startup. Lots of them are shit and you will just lose money working for them, or even better lose all your own money trying to make one yourself.

>>59365606
>Or you might end up not getting your salary when they fold and will live on a low salary as the company don't have any money.
They can't just not pay you, nigga

>>59365606
You don't use your own money when making your own startup, retard. You get VC funding and give yourself 10% as a salary. You start with a low salary but within 4 years you're making millions if you're not incompetent (it's very easy to "trick" VCtards into funding you).

As for startups, they will pay you anyway. If they don't you'll sue them and make even more money than what they owe you. You run the risk of the startup going under, but typically salary is comparable to big companies. The difference is you gamble on the benefits (via options) whereas you get the equivalent of a flat bonus in big companies.

>>59365638
Sue how much you want, when they declare bankruptcy you are not getting any money

>>59366082
that's literally not how it works, retard.

>>59365606
This is a total non-issue if you're not a total idiot when selecting a startup to work for, at least in the SF bay area (and likely Portland, Seattle, and Austin). There's shitloads of job openings, so as long as you've got some level of demonstrable capability and are familiar with languages + frameworks companies actually use (nobody gives a shit about your expert-level knowledge of D), you've got a huge selection to choose from.

>>59352964
but sweden is the one with the immigrant problem
you're far to dumb to wipe your own ass let alone remember something

>>59366498
then how does it work?

>>59367976
The bankruptcy file is denied for misconduct and the individual must pay out of pocket in the normal ways. The only way you don't get paid is if they have no family and commit suicide.

>>59366498
That's exactly how it works for real.

>>59345058
Bubblesort and mergesort are in the introductory computer science courses. You get one strike for not knowing basic stuff, a second strike for not admitting that you don't know it, and a third strike for not following instructions.

>>59367031
>nobody gives a shit about your expert-level knowledge of D
Sad. I like D but dont know enough to be an expert. I would like to learn more about it, but I know that it would be a big waste of time and it would be a better use of my time to learn more about something else.

>>59369397
#truth

>>59352979
It doesn't even have to be related to tech in any way. The importance of a work history is to show that you have a work ethic.

>>59370356
>It doesn't even have to be related to tech in any way. The importance of a work history is to show that you have a work ethic.
But contract work is fine, right? If I'm employed while applying will that help with the fuckhuge gap, or will they still look at that and be suspicious?

>>59353457
>You can also just learn Wordpress, and make $30/hr USD literally everywhere which isn't bad if you live in nowhere
Could this work on all the freelancing type of sites? Im a 28 yo NEET in a shitty east euro country and my only skills are basics of C/C++ and HTML/CSS. I just want to learn something that will enable me to start having any type of income in the shortest period of time, i dont even care if its interesting to me or not i just need dem shekels

>>59370777
seconding this and appreciating your numerals also

All i got is my high school diploma. Didn't even finish my first uni semester. I'm just learning python too.

>>59361448
It does

>>59370771
Yes, as long as it's verifiable. If they're questioning you on your employment history, they're just looking for an excuse to not hire you.

>>59371463
>If they're questioning you on your employment history, they're just looking for an excuse to not hire you.
Noted, thanks