https://www.strawpoll.me/12382602

>apple committing gpl violations when they use BSD code
>not putting mediatek or any other chink hardware vendor

it makes sense that the face of communist power in the tech scene has to be a disgusting ogre who doesn't wash himself
still not seeing that GNU/iPad? where's my free hardware? i want to make free and open software, someone needs to give me the hardware to do it thanks

>>59038265
arduino is "free as in speech"

>>59038293
what the h*ck??? thats NOT ok
i should just be able to steal hardware from someone else who earned it.

>>59038309
why? that doesn't seem fair

>>59038349
it isn't, communism isn't fair

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>>59038165
The only good commie is a dead commie.

>>59038363
but you were talking about stealing hardware, not communism

>>59038456
Communism /is/ stealing

>>59038411
This is bullshit - you're oversimplifying a complex situation to the point of no longer adding anything useful to the discussion.

>>59038489
Property /is/ theft

>>59038513
Nah, the lack of property rights leads to theft.

>>59038513
You /are/ retarded

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>>59038363
>communism isn't fair because it isn't fair for the people who exploit labour, y'know they take risk and that's worth infinite profit duh so because it isn't fair for the bourgies then it's not fair for me!

>>59038411
this image is an oversimplification of the nature of capitalism; it is not merely a network of free associations, rather it is the coercion of labour-power by the systemic need to work in order to avoid a poor life or in some cases destitution and death

>>59038513
>>59038498
you guys get it

>>59038513
Nigger you're gonna make me bring out the hippity hoppity

>>59038524
>>59038528
read Proudhon

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>>59038531
No it isn't and communism never worked, still doesn't and never will. You should get a job and stop being an autistic kid.

>>59038550
Read Smith.

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>>59038531
Stop posting!

Fuck yeah!

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>>59038532

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>>59038568
read Marx

>>59038561
>communism never worked
not an argument, Communism is by definition stateless, moneyless and without classes

>and stop being an autistic kid.
adhom

>>59038572
not an argument

>>59038623
Read Paul (Either one)

>>59038623
>it can work guise, we just need to try again
No. Communism is neat in theory but a disaster in practice.

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>>59038572
Kys famicon

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>>59038641
if I had a penny for every time I heard someone say this, I'd invest in stocks and shares and become a capitalist haha

stop parroting nonsense that you do not understand

>>59038640
genuinely interest, to whom are you referring to?

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>>59038621
VIOLATING THE NAP SHOOT TO KILL

>>59038561
Gabitalism never worked either.

Capitalism produced moeshit anime. Capitalism is bad.

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>>59038623
Yes it is an argument. Every single implementation of you shitty failed ideoligy resultet in a miserable failure and people starving to death.
>not my specific version of communism
This is not an argument.

>>59038674
Two of the greatest men to come out of Kentucky. Ron and Rand Paul, father and son, champions of freedom.

Oh, and quit spouting a kike's economical ideals.

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>not a single successful communist state ever recorded by history yet autists will still argue that it's gon work

>>59038703
No, it didn't. Read Marx and you'll see that it wasn't actually communism.

>>59038713
>kike's economical ideals
The irony

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>>59038623
every attempt at real-world communism has ended up in huge amounts of murdered civilians

>>59038713
Marx was only Jewish in theory.

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>>59038735
Read who?

>>59038735
>Marx's specific, infallable version of communism would totally work
What is Tragedy of the Commons

>>59038687
Actually works, see real world.

>>59038735
>not muh specific version of communism
Not an argument. Your shit system is not viable, deal with it.

>>59038741
>>59038750
The Bolshevik Jew was the origin behind overthrowing the Czar and taking slow militant and economic control over Russia.

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>>59038703
>not my specific version of communism
I never said this; one attempt at a formulation of an idea does not invalidate others anyway, learn logic

>not real socialism
when you show me the workers owning the MoP then I will be happy to admit 'real Socialism'

>Every single implementation of you shitty failed ideoligy resultet in a miserable failure and people starving to death.
as for the last part, Capitalism does exactly the same, but at a much larger scale each year on year

>>59038716
>not a single successful capitalist state even recorded by history yet autists will still argue it's gon work
t. feudal lord

>>59038745
funny that, Capitalism has too by its very nature; Communism does not have this by its very nature

>>59038761
something irrelevant

>>59038761
>What is Tragedy of the Commons
a THEORY
Are you americans really this stupid?

>>59038761
Something which capitalism doesn't prevent either.

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>>59038703

>>59038745
what about catalonia or the paris commune

>>59038778
>a THEORY
with examples including the USSR and the Peoples' Republic of China.

>>59038769
>real world
>actually works
Choose one.

>>59038771
Lenin didn't even KNOW he was Jewish.

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>>59038775
>point out the tens millions of civilian deaths caused directly by communism in the 20th century
>BUT CAPITALISM DOES IT ALSO IN THEORY SO IT'S OKAY
commies show their true colors. they don't care about the victims of their ideology, but I think that was known to everyone already.

>>59038789
That's not what ``fully automated" means.

>>59038775
Here. I'll cut you a damned good bargain here. We abolish all regulations regarding money (The only thing holding either of the two extreme economic ideals back) and see which one lasts longer. You in your mud-hut commune or me in my mansion.

>>59038531
I wonder how your average AnCap retard would react if you told them Friedman advocated for a UBI. Their brains would probably explode from the sheer cognitive dissonance.

>>59038827
>tfw you fell for the positive vs negative rights meme

>>59038794
No, they're not.

>>59038834
How about we abolish ALL regulations entirely? Since that's what the ancap retards are calling for anyway. Let's see how long you get to keep your mansion in that case.

>>59038769
>Actually works, see real world.
Yeah, "works". DRM, non-free software, millions of wageslaves, jewish companies and banks that will do anything to take your jewgold and kill competition, your gov that ignores the environment, freedoms and rights of her people and helps giant corps instead.

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>>59038827
I have little to no respect for previous 'Communist' states just as I have no respect for NK, do not try to paint me as a defender of these states, the people they killed etc. because I accept that it happened, I do not deny these atrocities

>>59038834
>We abolish all regulations regarding money (The only thing holding either of the two extreme economic ideals back)
this is false; socialism has nothing to do with money, redistributing money, or rich vs poor. it has nothing to do with monetary wealth whatsoever

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>>59038775
>a formulation of an idea
Which has been implemented. Multiple times.
Which failed each and every time.
Each and every time the failure was blamed on either outside forces or because "it was not my specific version of communism".
This is how pathetic communists are. Learn logic yourself, retard. Also get a job you lazy NEET faggot, you're not getting my money.

>workers owning the MoP
Will never happen, one of the reasons is no controll and workers are incompetent for many tasks.

>Capitalism does exactly the same
No it doesn't. See real world.

>>59038846
Both had Communist revolutions (Bolshevik / CCP) and ended up having to form a government to keep from starving because humans will naturally take the path of least resistance.

>>59038857
>capitalism is somehow to blame for all problem in this world
Nice try. Not my problem you are a wageslave for a jewish company and can't afford non-free software and have to drink polluted water.

>>59038874
>problems in capitalist countries aren't caused by capitalism!
>problems in communist countries are caused by communism!
your cognitive dissonance is showing :^)

>>59038827
>famine
I can find some too
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_%28Ireland%29
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Famine_%281740%E2%80%9341%29
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943

>>59038857
If your Kike overlord is screwing you over in business, it's a violation of the NAP. Blast his ass to the next millenia.
If your Kike overlord is screwing you over by way of Bolshevik communism, it's a violation of the NAP. Blast his ass to the next millenia.

>>59038861
>Will never happen, one of the reasons is no controll and workers are incompetent for many tasks.

Worker co-ops exist, you fucking retard. Mondragon is the 7th largest corporation in Spain and is a co-op.

>>59038919
That's illegal under capitalism you retard.

>>59038931
It's illegal under government, you retard.
>Authoritarianism/Libertarianism is the same as Capitalism/Communism meme

>>59038937
So then capitalism is violating the NAP just as much as communism does.

>>59038947
Cronyism is violating the NAP as much as communism does. A trade rip-off you got jewed into is coercion, and thus a violation of the NAP.

>>59038874
>Not my problem you are a wageslave for a jewish company
I am not, but I know that it's not your problem and that you probably would not give a fuck about it. After all capitalists tend to not give a shit about the problems that do not affect them.

>and can't afford non-free
It's about freedom you dumb fuck, not money.

>>59038828
What does it mean then?

>>59038892
This isn't a capitalist problem. IF you wasn't a retarded double digit IQ tool or a lazy NEET you wouldn't be forced to live in a third world shit hole.

>>59038920
>Worker co-ops exist, you fucking retard. Mondragon is the 7th largest corporation in Spain and is a co-op.
>a single company evidence for successful communism
>7th largest in spain
>spain
>literally irrelevant company
Wow it's nothing. Does your company have a hirarchy? Does your company exist within a state? Yes? Guess it's not real communism according to your definition.

>>59038966
>It's about freedom you dumb fuck
You have no right to use property of another person for free, absolutely no right at all, you dumb fuck leech.

>>59038983
No human interaction required?

>>59038989
Exactly

>>59038994
That is near-impossible to accomplish in it's true form.
KIND OF LIKE COMMUNISM.
REALLY FIRES UP THOSE NEURONS.

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>>59038165
why the heck are /pol/ retards suddenly finding interest in coming to /g/?


lets try and deter them

anime anime anime anime anime anime anime anime anime anime anime free software free software free software free software free software computers computers computers computers computers computers

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>>59038861
>Each and every time the failure was blamed on either outside forces
read up on left-communism, I don't have time to defend failed states

>one of the reasons is no controll and workers are incompetent for many tasks.
did you know that managers are workers, too? so are engineers, architects, programmers etc.
also, why do you assume that someone who extracts profit is somehow more qualified to do a certain task competently?

>No it doesn't. See real world.
"nobody has ever died due to not having enough resources to get by under capitalism, nor has anyone been overworked to death nor have people died because of failing to find work nor have people died because they have been unable to secure sustenance due to being laid off"
wow

>>59038874
>capitalism is somehow to blame for all problem in this world
it's to blame for the problems caused by poverty, destitution and death resulting in lack of being able to find work or inability to work or overwork, furthermore the misery of those who work hard and are paid little

>>59038919
the NAP is a poorly thought out concept, read any serious literature about it

>>59038937
you don't like government? why support a system which inherently sets up two classes, one with dominion over the other? this form of coercion and force to work is in fact a violation of your precious NAP

ancap isn't anarchistic

>>59038965
>cronyism
there is no mechanism that prevents government-less captialism from turning into government capitalism, furthermore capitalism inherently carries exploitation with it, which is just one step removed from having a government to prop up capitalist interests

>>59038985
>IF you wasn't a retarded double digit IQ tool or a lazy NEET
ah, it's the "people who are intelligent and work hard are always rewarded" meme, haven't seen that in a while

>Does your company have a hirarchy? Does your company exist within a state?
co-ops aren't intended to be communism, rather a fairer way of organising labour

>>59038985
>Wow it's nothing. Does your company have a hirarchy? Does your company exist within a state? Yes? Guess it's not real communism according to your definition.

You literally tried to argue that worker's being in charge of the MoP will never happen, and I proved your idiotic statement wrong. I didn't mention a word about communism. Your goalpost shifting is amusing though.

>>59039005
Honestly at this point sending this to /pol/ is like throwing a chunk of meat to the wolves.

>>59038985
>for free
Again, you dumb fuck, free software is not about money.
What on earth are you doing on /g/

>property of another person
These are bits in my computer, asshat.

>absolutely no right at all
Who gives you the right to decide what people can do with bits stored in their hard drives? Faglord.

>58% say proprietary software is bad
Huh. I thought this place went to complete shit but I guess not. Now we just got to worry about gassing the other 42%.

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>>59038985
>You have no right to use property of another person for free
neither does one have the right to use the personal property of someone obtained under duress of destitution, poverty or death, so why is it OK for the capitalist to force the worker to sell labour-time?

>>59038965
If cronyism "real capitalism", then what they have in USSR, PRC and DPRK isn't "real communism" either.

And no, being an idiot doesn't mean someone violated the NAP against you. The NAP is very strict in what it defines as aggression; if you agree to it, it's not a violation.

>>59039005
I browse /pol/ and I'm watching gabdrop, LWA, and demi-chan at the moment (also rewatching cowboy bebop)

you don't have to be a no fun allowed asshole to know communism is absolutely retarded

>>59039035
It's not. The worker may happily quit, and SUSTENANCE FARM TO SUSTAIN HIMSELF AND HIS FAMILY.
>>59039053
If you were lied to, feel free to use any means necessary to get your wealth back.

>>59039061
Have you read your SICP?

>>59038983
It means the equipment is fully self maintaining at all levels. Until that point, technology only increases the productivity of humans, and does not lead to a long term decrease in employment - employment is held more or less constant and total productivity rises. Fully automated communism refers to the situation in which human labor ceases to become neccessary, at least for many fields of work. So it's not just factories without assembly line workers, but where the machines in those factories are able to repair and upgrade themselves without any human intervention.

>>59038985
Communism calls for a stateless society, not one without temporary voluntary hierarchies.

Reminder that most communists are unemployed gibsmedat libshits who don't understand economics, or Bolshevik Jewish shills.

>>59039061
No Konosuba and Maid dragon?

>>59039065
with what land? oh wait that's right it's all private property

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>>59039077
naw, I'm not there yet
>>59039101
I didn't even finish the first season of Konosuba, but maid dragon I might watch when it's done airing

>>59038985
>You have no right to use property of another person for free, absolutely no right at all, you dumb fuck leech.
You have no right to deprive others of property simply because you somehow fooled yourself into believing you ``earned" it and that means you're entitled to it.

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>>59038165

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Communism
>Fairy tale made up by some fat neet, championed by autistic faggots who have a hard on against successful people
Capitalism
>Flawed yet constantly in use & improving system

>>59039097
If full automation becomes reality, then we've truly reached the technological singularity.

>>59039118
To be fair, properly-made Russian blins are some of the best fuckin' pancakes I've ever tasted.

>>59039010
>read up on left-communism
>read up on X because i can't defend my failed ideology
Nice.

>did you know that managers are workers, too? so are engineers, architects, programmers etc.
Guess it's ok then for managers to go home with millions each year.
>also, why do you assume that someone who extracts profit is somehow more qualified to do a certain task competently?
If you mean shareholders by this. They give money to you for you to invest it into the company but expect profit in return. What's wrong with this?

>"nobody has ever died due to not having enough resources to get by under capitalism, nor has anyone been overworked to death nor have people died because of failing to find work nor have people died because they have been unable to secure sustenance due to being laid off"
People who legitimately cannot work get state aid, people who do not want to work simply deserve to die.
Qualified people who lose their job will find another, unqualified ones should not be unqualified in the first place.

>it's to blame for the problems caused by poverty, destitution and death resulting in lack of being able to find work or inability to work or overwork, furthermore the misery of those who work hard and are paid little
No. Capitalism is not to blame if beaner scum in mexico can't sustain itself or if niggers in africa are too retarded to live.
Wageslaves do not deserve the same payment than higher qualified workers, easy as that. Burgerflippers are just not worth the same as engineers.

>people who are intelligent and work hard are always rewarded
Yes, exactly this and you can't argue against it, nice to see.

>co-ops aren't intended to be communism, rather a fairer way of organising labour
So if it doesn't prove the point, why use it as "argument"?

>>59039123
>Communism
>>Fairy tale made up by some fat neet, championed by autistic faggots who have a hard on against successful people
>Capitalism
>>Flawed yet constantly in use & improving system
Seems like a comparison of Haskell/Scheme/etc against Java/C#/etc
(Java/C#/etc are all factually inferior)

>>59038775
>capitalism is evil by nature
How is something entirely based in voluntary acts of consent, evil by nature?
>>59038623
>>59038735
How then, you kike cock lickers, would communism be implemented? Without turning into a totalitarian dystopia of mass murder and starvation?

>there are actual communists on this board
Time to start the helicopters lads.

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>>59039053
>If cronyism "real capitalism"
capitalism makes no stipulation at all about government, therefore a society with a government (and 'cronies') qualifies as 'real capitalism'; read up on the capitalist mode of production

>USSR, PRC and DPRK isn't "real communism" either.
communism is by definition stateless, therefore any state calling itself communist is lying, and any state calling itself socialist in which the MoP are not owned by the workers is also lying

read up on the definitions of all these things, before you post

>>59039065
>The worker may happily quit
false, under capitalism the worker is left with no choice but to sell his labour, thus his only choice is to quit or live a life of destitution

>SUSTENANCE FARM TO SUSTAIN HIMSELF AND HIS FAMILY.
if this were successful, people would do it, and it is a very poor life to live, especially in the case where there are more than enough resources to ensure that it does not happen

>>59039053
>if you agree to it, it's not a violation.
so if you twist my arm and tell me to suck your cock, and I agree out of duress, it's not a violation? no harm has occurred?

consent is a very flimsy concept and you must first define it, sorry.

>>59039099
>gibsmedat libshits
we are against liberalism

>who don't understand economics
read Marx

>Bolshevik Jewish shills.
jooooos

>>59039112
to add to that, simply inheriting or purchasing the property is no right to it, just as purchasing a stolen item still means that the item is stolen, the possession does not become legitimate.

>>59039123
>who have a hard on against successful people
yep, those sweatshop workers really have a hard on against successful people

>Flawed yet constantly in use & improving system
captilasm is inherently flawed due to the exploitation of labour and abandon for the environment in pursuit of profit, also its internal contradictions; read Marx and David Harvey

>>59039099
not an argument :^)

go back to your domreddit or whatever other alt-right shithole you crawled out of

>>59039023
>Again, you dumb fuck, free software is not about money.
Again, you have no right to it. Deal with it, retard.

>These are bits in my computer, asshat.
There bits are the product of another person that expects a payment from you to use those bits.
Pay or fuck off you autistic retard.

>Who gives you the right to decide what people can do with bits stored in their hard drives?
A person writes a programm, licences it and wants money for it. That person decides you don't get to use the programm without payment.
Accept it or fuck off, retard.

>>59039157
>kike cock lickers
the irony

>>59039173
>Accept it or fuck off, retard.
Alternatively, you could take it into your own hands and crack the thing

>>59039035
>the capitalist to force the worker to sell labour-time
Nobody forces you to work, idiot. If you don't want to work then don't. But don't come crying if you starve to death and nobody wants to help you because you're a lazy worthless leech.

>>59039159
>If this were successful, people would do it.
What are the Amish.
>More than enough resources to ensure it does not happen
Then a supply surplus would drive prices down

>>59039176
>implying

>>59039205
>implying

>>59039157
>How is something entirely based in voluntary acts of consent, evil by nature?
That's like saying armed theft isn't ``evil by nature" because the victims ``consented" to give you money to avoid getting shot.

>>59039159
>so if you twist my arm and tell me to suck your cock, and I agree out of duress, it's not a violation? no harm has occurred?
That's what lolbertarians believe, yes.

>>59039216
>implying

>>59039123
>Flawed yet constantly in use & improving system

I'm sure Louis XVI felt the same way about feudalism.

>>59039219
>implying

>>59039218
Nah, if you twist my arm and tell me to suck your cock, I'll happily shoot you using my untwisted arm.

>>59039188
>Alternatively, you could take it into your own hands and crack the thing
Sure, but don't cry if feds knock on your door one day.
From a moral POV it's wrong, but i'm not telling you to not pirate since it's your choice and your freedom to make that decision.

>>59039230
>Implying

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>>59039159
I'm reading marx now you dumb faggot, the only thing he's done is make generalisations and straw men. Its so sad that your retarded wet dream won't come to fruition, maybe if you smoke some more weed you can pretend that you got there.

>>59039061
>i browse /pol/

then why aren't you talking about /pol/ things on /pol/?

you are on the wrong board, this is /g/, its a board about technology.

here's a link to /pol/ in case you forgot how to get there:
>>>/pol/

i hope i could help you

>>59039205
>>59039216
>>59039219
>>59039230
>>59039243
Argentina is White

>>59039173
>Again, you have no right to it. Deal with it, retard.
I do have the right to use free software actually.
Who exactly removes my moral right to do whatever I want with non-free software however?

>There bits are the product of another person
And?

>that expects a payment from you to use those bits
1: free as in freedom, not as in free beer. How can this be so hard to understand?
2: Using software is only one of the 4 freedoms.

>A person writes a programm, licences it and wants money for it
1: See above
2: And I want anime to become real, but we can't have everything, can we?

>That person decides you don't get to use the programm without payment.
I fear that he does not get to decide that, just like I do not get to decide to fuck his mother.

>Accept it or fuck off, retard.
How about the 3rd option? Do not accept it but don't fuck off.

You know how people often point out how american public schools are engineered to have students memorize things and not really learn them? There's a reason for that, and thank you to those thoughtlessly spouting communist rhetoric for pointing it out.

>>59039258
I didn't start this thread, it's still here and I can post where I want lad.

>>59039216
>>59039219
>implying implications
>>59039218
>>59039218
No, because that would violate the NAP, and even if it in magic commie land didn't, how is that different from a commie death squad forcing me to give away the fruits of my labor? How can communism force me to do that without resorting to a state?

>>59039234
If men with guns attack you for manipulating bits on your computer, they're violating the NAP. Unless you're going to claim that the insides of my computer aren't actually my property...?

>>59039283
The problem is that you're too caught up in the positive rights/negative rights mentality. It assumes all people are in an equal state. It claims that killing in self-defense is justified, but stealing in self-defense is not, even though the stealing causes only negligible harm compared to killing.

This thread stopped being about technology five posts in, go back to your containment board you retarded shits.

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>>59039144
>read up on X because i can't defend my failed ideology
left-communism specifically about not defending those states which claim to have been communist or socialist; I do not defend them, I defend anarcho-communism and social anarchism

>Guess it's ok then for managers to go home with millions each year.
only if they earned that money by their own labour, rather than by selling the labour of others and gathering profit thereby; I have no problem with that

>They give money to you for you to invest it into the company but expect profit in return.
the profit comes from exploitation of labour

>People who legitimately cannot work get state aid
weirdly enough, only as a result of campaigning enacted by socialists

>Qualified people who lose their job will find another
and still be exploited, nice

>beaner scum in mexico can't sustain itself or if niggers in africa are too retarded to live.
Sorry, but it is to blame. The only reason why they can't get access to the resources they need is because of capital accumulation by people who did not work for it

if your argument is that people who work hard should be rewarded fully, you'd be a socialist

>Burgerflippers are just not worth the same as engineers.
I never claimed they were

>So if it doesn't prove the point, why use it as "argument"?
I am another anon, sorry for the confusion. Secondly, co-ops show that management need not to be based upon exploitation

>>59039157
>How is something entirely based in voluntary acts of consent, evil by nature?
define consent, and whether it is still consensual if you have the choice of destitution and death or to accept the proposition to be exploited

>>59039247
>maybe if you smoke some more weed you can pretend that you got there.
I do not take drugs

>>59039200
>Then a supply surplus would drive prices down
prices are irrelevant, I'm talking about resources, and not resource distribution; rather, that in a moneyless system there would be no impediment to redistribution

>>59039288
I reported this pedo scum to the FBI.

>>59039234
>From a moral POV it's wrong
Only for retards

>>59039188
Using something is only one freedom.

>>59039265
>I do have the right to use free software actually.
Free software, but not non-free.

>Who exactly removes my moral right to do whatever I want with non-free software however?
No one, but don't cry if feds raid your house and you end up in jail or paying a retarded amount of money.

>And?
If that person does not want you to use his software for free, you have no right to.

>How can this be so hard to understand?
Idk.. how hard can it be to understand that you have no right to use non-free software.

>And I want anime to become real, but we can't have everything, can we?
Not an argument. You pay for his product or you fuck off. Easy as that.

>I fear that he does not get to decide that, just like I do not get to decide to fuck his mother.
>t. 12 year old kid
>>>/b/

>>59039288
If you have licensed material on your hardware it is not your property.

>>59039328
What does that have to do with pedophilia? Possession of CP is wrong because you cannot obtain it without encouraging harmful activities. But for you to apply the same argument to legally purchased SOFTWARE, you'd have to claim that "buying software" isn't buying software at all, because apparently even though I paid for it fair and square, I don't actually own it? Does that really make sense to you?

>>59039368
Technically true, but you may still physically alter the licensed material as you see fit. The only bad thing that may happen is getting caught (but that's only likely to happen if you distribute your cracked material)

>all the nontechnical bullshit in this thread

>>59039391
You're not buying the software though, you're buying a binary package to execute the software and a license that says you're allowed to.

>>59039368
And that's why it's retarded that lolbertarians and ancaps support non-free software.

>>59039414
So the software isn't actually the machine code? The machine code which I buy is something else, and "software" is some meaningless abstract concept? If I were to (legally or not) redistribute the "binary package" to someone without the "software", what would that look like?

>>59039346
>Free software, but not non-free.
Sure I do, not the legal right thanks to the jewish capitalist companies but I do have the moral right.

>No one, but don't cry if feds raid your house and you end up in jail or paying a retarded amount of money.
It will be yet another example of how capitalism disrespects my individual rights and freedoms.

>Idk.. how hard can it be to understand that you have no right to use non-free software.
I do have the moral right to use it in any case and for any reason. I have the legal right to use it after I get a licence for it that allows me to use only for very specific things and in very specific ways.

Why do you keep ignoring the rights concerning the use in ways disallowed by the EULA and modification of the software? These have nothing to do with money.

>Not an argument. You pay for his product or you fuck off. Easy as that.
Yes it is an argument. As I said above, I can just not pay it and use it anyway. Also, see above.

>>t. 12 year old kid
Still a valid argument.

Luke, go to sleep you dirty nigger.

You're ruining my #nicetime here on /g/.

>>59039420
I don't, but I call myself a liberal. Fuck that -tarian shit; if you think people should be forced to pay out of their pockets for other peoples' fuck ups, you aren't a liberal.

>>59039391
>because you cannot obtain it without encouraging harmful activities
you can download it

>>59039447
Who the fuck is Luke?

Friendly reminder that non-free software should be illegal.

>>59039447
Eat my shorts, Jeremy.

>>59039470
Which in some way or another encourages its production (an inherently harmful act).

>>59039320
>implying i am ancap
Anarchy is bad. Also not an argument.

>I defend anarcho-communism and social anarchism
Anarchism? OK.. fine, how about i shoot you in the face since there's no law that tells me not to?

>if they earned that money by their own labour
Which is what managers do. Managers tend to have ridiculously long work time.

>the profit comes from exploitation of labour
No it doesn't and you are a retard for believing so. If the shareholders would not get any profit, they would not give their money to you to invest it.

>weirdly enough, only as a result of campaigning enacted by socialists
People who are legitimately not capable of working should get minimum security. Socialists in the past fought for partially good things, todays socialists are retarded leeches who want my property, which is not going to happen.

>and still be exploited
Work is not exploitation. If you feel so, then don't work for a company and find a different way to get money. Nobod forces you to work there.

>Sorry, but it is to blame.
No, it simply isn't. You are just desperately searching for excuses to blame something on capitalism.

>management need not to be based upon exploitation
Which isn't the case anyways. Work does NOT equal exploitation.

>>59039486
There is literally nothing wrong with it. It's my software. If I want to allow you to use it but prevent you from modifying it I have every damned right to.

>>59039317
>assumes equal state
So does anarcho-communism? Any stateless society requires something like this. Ancap is just the logical conclusion of anarchy.
Also, how do you steal in self defense in a stateless society? If you mean stealing for self preservation, then stealing is initiating force, which violates the NAP. Stealing is illegal now, the only thing that is different would be the destruction of welfare, which in reality is just another form of stealing.
>>59039320
>muh NAP
Consent is easy to justify with the NAP. How would anarcho-communism create collective ownership without the initiation of force?
How is exploiting me to "help" the exploited not exploitation?
>>59039420
People are going to do what they want in an ancap society, but you don't speak for me, I don't support non-free software morally.

>>59039420
>And that's why it's retarded that lolbertarians and ancaps support non-free software.
>t. retarded NEET
Get a job so you can afford nice software you pathetic leech.

>>59039498
Doubtful
Also, the same can be said for the videos all over the news of isis beheading people and destroying ancient stuff.

>>59039505
>Anarchism? OK.. fine, how about i shoot you in the face since there's no law that tells me not to?
Not them, but our actions don't occur in a vacuum - the law is just a formal codification of normal human reactions. If you wrong someone, they or those close to them are likely to seek revenge. So sure, go ahead and do it, as long as you're willing to face the consequences.

>>59039481
Who the fuck are you?

>>59039496
Up yours, Shirley.

>>59039535
AddRange(MyDick)

>>59039516
>There is literally nothing wrong with it
Restricting the freedoms of its users is wrong I would say.

>If I want to allow you to use it but prevent you from modifying it I have every damned right to.
Legally yes
Morally no
It would also make you a huge jerk and an asshole.

>>59039505
>Work is not exploitation. If you feel so, then don't work for a company and find a different way to get money. Nobod forces you to work there.
That's exactly why it's exploitation though, because you have literalaly no other option if yo want to keep eating. Sure, you can work elsewhere, but you can't just say "I don't like working so I'll stop" unless you're literally willing to die. It's like saying slavery isn't exploitation, because people would willingly work as slaves if that was the only way they could get enough food to stay alive.

>>59039320
>leftcom

Oh no wonder you're such a faggot. Don't you have some Trotsky or something to read before jacking off to your own ideological purity?

>>59039541
But do you have a tumblr account?

>>59039445
>Sure I do
No you don't. Pay for the license, then you have the right to use it.

>example of how capitalism disrespects my individual rights and freedoms
No. It will be an example of working law enforcement.

>I do have the moral right to use it in any case and for any reason
Literally the mind of a commiethief. You neither have the moral nor the legal right to use proprietary software without paying for it.

>>59039441
Ultimately it's meaningless semantics. Say you buy a music album from the store; you're not actually buying the work of music but a CD that reproduces it on your devices. A binary package executes the software but it is not actually the software. The software is always the intellectual property of the developer and you can only license from him the means to use it.

>>59039556
Wana know how I know your fat?

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>>59039123
>constantly improving

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>>59039572
Reported

>>59038835
>Friedman
Milton Friedman was not an Ancap, were did you get this idea from?

>>59039550
No it's not exploitation. If you do not want to work aka contribute you should not expect anything in return.
It is not your right to expect to be financed by the society if you reject to contribute to it.
One day when you grow up you will understand this.

>>59039588
>implying

>>59039562
>No you don't. Pay for the license, then you have the right to use it.
As I said before: "Sure I do, not the legal right thanks to the jewish capitalist companies but I do have the moral right."

>No. It will be an example of working law enforcement.
I disagree.

>Literally the mind of a commiethief. You neither have the moral nor the legal right to use proprietary software without paying for it.
1: I do have the moral right
2: Why do you insist on talking only about getting the right to use the software? Why do you never argue about the other restrictions placed by the license?

>>59039519
>Also, how do you steal in self defense in a stateless society? If you mean stealing for self preservation, then stealing is initiating force, which violates the NAP. Stealing is illegal now, the only thing that is different would be the destruction of welfare, which in reality is just another form of stealing.
Who would define the NAP in a stateless society? There isn't even such a thing as property rights in a stateless society, without a state to resolve disputes.

And self-defense rights arise from the right to self-preservation, so by your logic a human life is worth less than an apple as far as the NAP is concerned. Which is why the NAP is a retardedly oversimplified basis for forming a system of morality.

>>59039523
The software I want doesn't even exist. Free software is the only way I can get the software I want unless I want to create it completely from scratch.

>>59039578
Notice how it the inequality starts rising just as the neoliberals start to take power?

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>>59039505
>Anarchy is bad. Also not an argument.
irony

>OK.. fine, how about i shoot you in the face since there's no law that tells me not to?
so the only thing stopping you from doing bad things is punishment? what are you, a monkey in a cage being hosed for stealing bananas?

>Which is what managers do. Managers tend to have ridiculously long work time.
you claimed that they, by their own personal labour, make millions; I'd like to see you justify that, and if you can, I have no problem with it

>No it doesn't and you are a retard for believing so.
read Value, Price and Profit by Marx

>todays socialists are retarded leeches who want my property, which is not going to happen.
I didn't know you own a business and you hire people to work on it; in which case, we want your machinery (which is manned by worker labour) and land (which is worked by worker labour)

we don't want your toothbrush or computer

>Work is not exploitation
It is; the worker is being exploited just as a machine is exploited, or yarn to knit a sweater is exploited, however instead of being sold by the kilogram, the worker is sold by the hour; he sells his labour time which is exploited by the person he is selling it to

>and find a different way to get money
with what capital? also, in order to do this, I would probably have to become an exploiter myself, and this does not solve everyone else's problem of being exploited; it's not about personal liberation, rather it is class liberation.

>>59039552
I'm open to changing my view, and I may be happy to; what would be recommend? I haven't read much of Lenin, Stalin or Mao. I'm genuinely interested in your view.

>>59039194
you have the choice to die instead of working under any system. why is it better in capitalism than in socialism?

>>59039608
There's also no such thing as a stateless society. Any kind of governing body at all, even a town forum where every single member including women and children gets a vote, would count as the state.

>>59039596
Again, by your ``contributing" logic, slavery is justified, because ``you do something for me, I do something for you". That mentality leads to criminalizing human nature.

>>59039607
>As I said before
As I said before, you don't.

>I disagree.
That's because you're leech.

>Why do you never argue about the other restrictions placed by the license?
Be more specific.

>>59039634
And why would such a state choose the NAP as its sole model of morality?

>>59039620
I would suggest more Lenin and Luxemburg.

>>59039617
that's kind of the point, isn't it?

>>59039590
>Milton Friedman was not an Ancap

Never said he was. A lot of Ancaps I've encountered worship the guy though.

>>59039635
Slavery refers only to involuntary servitude. If the slave is free to end service and go off on his merry way, that's not involuntary and not slavery.

>>59039651
Because they decided that "you stay off my lawn, I stay off yours" was a pretty good way of running things. What's the question?

>>59039658
thanks famrade; polite sage

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>>59039650
nice arguments

>>59039659
Neoliberals are not capitalists. Fascists are not right-wing, they're economic centrists.

>>59039668
>Slavery refers only to involuntary servitude. If the slave is free to end service and go off on his merry way, that's not involuntary and not slavery.
Servitude isn't voluntary in any meaningful sense if it comes to "do this or you'll die".

>Because they decided that "you stay off my lawn, I stay off yours" was a pretty good way of running things. What's the question?
Why did they decide that? And how did they convince the majority of society to accept it?

>>59039675
Oh and protip to save yourself a lot of time and pain. Don't bother arguing with /pol/acks and ancaps on the internet unless they come into your territory. You could spend that time doing actually valuable things like reading theory or watching paint dry.

>>59039608
The NAP is easy to define, it's in the name, the Non Aggression Principle, or the Non Initiation of Force, of course there is more nuance to it than that, but that is the gist of it. There is such a thing as property rights, because the concept of property is inherent to humanity and has existed as long as humans have, and property right disputes are solved with the NAP and the will to defend property, which has existed as long as people have.
>>59039634
Wrong, and you are wrong because states are not voluntary, where as a "covenant" or town forum, as you called it, would be completely voluntary.
>>59039686
>why did the decide that
>how did they convice the majority of society to accept it
Because the NAP is literally common sense.

>>59039620
>told him i'm not ancap
>keeps posting shitty ancap memes
Why are commies always this autistic?

>so the only thing stopping you from doing bad things is punishment? what are you, a monkey in a cage being hosed for stealing bananas?
Not an argument. It was to showcase why and how anarchism is always a bad option. People will just go out to kill others and have fun.

>by their own personal labour
Yes. Managing a company, especially those huge international ones is extremely difficult. You essentially cannot make a bad decision because if you do you endanger the entire company.

>read Value, Price and Profit by Marx
>read X because i have no argument
Typical commie rhetoric.

>I didn't know you own a business and you hire people to work on it; in which case, we want your machinery (which is manned by worker labour) and land (which is worked by worker labour)
Which you won't get because it's my property. Also it was me in the first place who made it possible for the workers to get their job.

>It is; the worker is being exploited just as a machine is exploited
No he is not. The worker gets paid by the hour.

>with what capital?
The ony you saved up during your lifetime. Otherwise go into the woods and live as a hermit, nobody forces you to do anything.

>>59039635
Wrong. Slaves have no human right and don't get paid, they only get the very basics they need to survive until they are not productive anymore.

>>59039741
>Because the NAP is literally common sense.
Then why do so many people disagree with it?

>>59039677
>complains about arguments
>posts anime reaction gif as response

>>59039760
What is the quantitative minimum an employer must provide to their employees for it to not be slavery?

>>59039686
But it never comes to "do this or you'll die", does it? There will always be some rich bitch who feels sorry for displaced servants and will give them temporary lodging until they find work elsewhere.
Also why does it matter how an ancap society decides that's how they want to run things? They decided they wanted to if they exist, or if they don't exist it's because they didn't.

>>59039741
Does it really count as voluntary when if you sit out a town forum and don't express your opinion the other guys are free to vote to bulldoze your house? That's a violation of the NAP, but so is taxation.

>>59039789
Stupid question also workers are people with rights and freedom, therefore not slaves.

>>59039791
>But it never comes to "do this or you'll die", does it? There will always be some rich bitch who feels sorry for displaced servants and will give them temporary lodging until they find work elsewhere.
Really? So nobody has died of starvation or exposure, or lack of medical care, in a capitalist society?

>>59039620
That pic is retarded.
>reading Marx on economics
Oh you mean the guy that never worked a day in his life and LITERALLY lived off the exploitation of the working class? The guy that raped his servant that he never paid, who was basically his slave?
>>59039771
Why do people get computer viruses? People disagree with it because they are retarded, most of our ethics as a society can be boiled down the NAP.
>>59039791
>does it count as voluntary
If the covenant contract states that can happen, then it is voluntary, otherwise no. If I were to join a covenant I would read the fine print to make sure I knew exactly what I was getting into, which is what people do today anyways.

>>59039822
What rights and freedoms do they have? How can they exercise those rights without jeopardizing their own life?

>>59039830
Naturally they have, because not everyone is aware of said resources. In order for a proper capitalist society to function, there needs to be a populace of intelligent, informed individuals or it collapses or gets voted into a welfare state.

>>59039843
>most of our ethics as a society can be boiled down the NAP.
Except for things like copyright and immigration law.

Capitalism is what puts food on my table.

I'm ok with capitalism.

>>59039746
>Why are commies always this autistic?
i just like posting them, people might find them funny, chill out; I almost never use images as arguments unless they contain substantial theses

>People will just go out to kill others and have fun.
(((proofs)))

>Typical commie rhetoric.
I cannot condense the explanation of the capitalist mode of production nor do I have the time to; I am not good at explaining well, either.. it's not a long read.

>Which you won't get because it's my property
what right do you have to it, if you use it to exploit people? also, it was made by people who were exploited in the past and is currently manned by exploited labour

>Also it was me in the first place who made it possible for the workers to get their job.
so what? they should be grateful because you are exploiting them?

>The worker gets paid by the hour.
I already covered this. The machine you pay for at once, while the worker, just like maintenance or repeated supply purchase, is a running cost
really the worker is merely something you pay for, but you pay for labour-time by the hour rather than sugar by the kilo; this isn't anything particularly communistic or hard to understand, it's simply fact

>Otherwise go into the woods and live as a hermit, nobody forces you to do anything.
this is not a just choice, especially when the resources exist to provide for everyone; you haven't backed up why those who haven't worked much at all should get the fruits of the labour of others

>>59039791
>But it never comes to "do this or you'll die", does it?
are you serious?

>There will always be some rich bitch who feels sorry for displaced servants and will give them temporary lodging until they find work elsewhere.
relying upon charity cannot be relied upon at all, and it is at best a temporary solution to an inherent problem; you clearly recognise that there is a problem yet you refuse to address the root cause of it

>>59039843
>That pic is retarded.
I know but I found it funny

>>59039870
So...what you're saying is...is that...capitalism...works great in theory?

>>59038835
>Friedman advocated for a UBI
Where are the proofs?

>>59039853
Human rights, worker rights, personal right, everything a slave does not have since a slave is property.
They can exercise their rights perfectly fine without jeopardizing their own life.
Your argument is completely invalid.

>>59039908
Most rights depend on money. If you feel your rights are violated, then you can't do anything about it without hiring a lawyer. Which would mean you won't be able to afford food that month.

>>59039877
You don't rely on charity, you use it as a temporary safety net to jump from one field to another, figuratively and literally. If you don't produce anything of value, you aren't of value, is the doctrine of most societies and not just the capitalist ones.

>>59039898
Of course. I'm sure most of these well-debated systems work in theory, but their flaws will come to light in practice. Like how every instance of communism has turned totalitarian.

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>muh gorillion deaths under Stalin/Mao

>>59039859
What the fuck is it with commies and shit memes?
>>59039872
Hence the word most, but as for immigration, immigration is a direct threat to an ancap society as it not only propagates the welfare state, it also allows commies, socialists, democrats and the trash of the third world to come and destabilize society. These people are also very, very likely to violate the NAP, and if they were there to begin with, would need to be physically removed, so to speak.
>>59039898
This is not an argument.

>>59039900
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtpgkX588nM

A negative income tax is almost exactly the same concept as a UBI.

>>59039873
>i'm okay with something so long as i'm being exploited less than others
nice

>>59039870
>Naturally they have, because not everyone is aware of said resources.
being aware of resources doesn't mean shit when they've already been claimed and the person is forcing you to work or to die

>>59039908
>a slave is property.
a worker's labour-time is also property, and without labour a man cannot live (unless by charity or inheritance)
furthermore, these rights are not nearly sufficient, as labour is still being exploited, and worker's rights during the course of an employment finish when they leave employment, meaning that they are still forced to work or live a poor life

>>59039943
>If you don't produce anything of value, you aren't of value
do you only count the capitalist mode production here?

>is the doctrine of most societies and not just the capitalist ones
No, it's not. Learn to differentiate exchange value and use value. Capitalism only maximises for exchange value, which is non-ideal.

>>59039971
>democrats
>democracy is bad

>>59039997
>democrats are democratic
The rest of the post falls in line.

>>59039877
>(((proofs)))
Africa, Mexiko, Venezuela, some parts of asia, whole middle east.

>what right do you have to it, if you use it to exploit people?
I do not exploit people, i give them opportunity. Work is NOT exploitation.

>so what? they should be grateful because you are exploiting them?
I do not exploit people, i give them opportunity. Work is NOT exploitation.

>I already covered this
Not an argument. You bullshitted your rethoric but made not a single point. I do not exploit people since i pay them for their efforts.

>this is not a just choice, especially when the resources exist to provide for everyone
Being those resources gifted is not a human right. Either produce them on your own or buy them if you can't do it on your own.

>you haven't backed up why those who haven't worked much at all should get the fruits of the labour of others
Who do you mean, the shareholders? I already told you. Shareholders give you their trust and money so you can take that money and invest it into your company, for example buy a new machine to create more goods and more profit. They, of course, expect a fair share of that profit in return, otherwise they would never give their money to you and you'd not be able to buy a new machine and created new jobs.
It's only logical.

>>59039971
If we really were a society based on the NAP, we wouldn't need to worry about ``welfare state" since it would be specifically forbidden by our constitution. And ``physically removing" people because you THINK they might violate the NAP in the future is, itself, a violation of the NAP.

>>59039937
>then you can't do anything about it without hiring a lawyer
Wrong. You can read up those laws on your own or get a laywer supplied by the state.

this is the entire problem with the economics profession. Because they can jury rig the numbers with their financial tools and the say their deductions are scientific and un-refutable on the grounds of data. This is exactly the kind of thing that cased the GFC.

>>59038165
capitalism is good
proprietary sucks but nobody is fucking forcing anyone to share shit, this isn't a fucking gulag, you can choose to install whatever you want on your computer
and I'm a Linux user, I run some proprietary software (OH NO THROW THE BOURGEOISESIE INTO THE GNULAG)
fucking gnumales

>>59040046
If representing yourself in court, or relying on a public defender, were as good as having a paid lawyer, then no one would get paid lawyers. It's simple logic.

>>59039997
>a worker's labour-time is also property
No it's not. Your employer can't simply sell you to another company unless you accept it.
>without labour a man cannot live
Then learn how to survive innawoods if you do not want to work.
>labour is still being exploited
No it's not. You are being paid for your work.

>>59040048
The GFC was caused by letting ourselves get into a corporation where we were afraid to impose penalty on certain corporations.

>>59040078
Never said not implied they are of the same quality, but it still does not prove any of your points.
It's simple logic.

>>59038165
http://www.strawpoll.me/12383588

>>59039953
I'll bite
Most of those deaths happen in war-torn countries where most people live in areas where the government has no control. Those aren't deaths caused by capitalism, those are deaths caused by anarchy.
Furthermore, nearly all international humanitarian aid comes from capitalist countries. In 2014, China, the world's largest communist power and the country with the highest GDP in the world, gave out $4.5 million in aid, and received $54 million. Meanwhile the US, the world's largest capitalist power, gave out $4.7 billion in aid.

>>59039997
>democracy is bad
Yes it is. Tyranny of the majority, and the rulers in a democracy are not held accountable to their actions in a way that matters. Not to mention that democracy always seems to devolve into socialism.
>>59040042
>physical removal violates the NAP
No it doesn't, being raped by Mohammed violates the NAP, getting taxed by Vlad The Dictator violates the NAP, getting shot by Che "I Love Murdering Children" Guevara for not giving up the fruits of my labor is a violation of the NAP, and these things are not probability, they are a certainty as evidenced by history.

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>>59038165

>>59040021
>Africa, Mexiko, Venezuela, some parts of asia, whole middle east.
this is not anarchy

>I do not exploit people, i give them opportunity.
the opportunity to work for you, or starve? some opportunity that is..
work is exploitation, read up on it

>I do not exploit people since i pay them for their efforts.
My god. Paying people means that you don't exploit them? Did it occur to you that the quantity you pay also matters? Where does your profit come from? Why do you take home money despite doing little or no work for it?

>Either produce them on your own
with what capital?

>or buy them if you can't do it on your own.
with what money? the one that fell out of the sky? furthermore, this still fails to account for those with little or no capital at all, and many parts of society require coordinated labour of multiple people that cannot be done on an individual or small level

>>59040087
>Your employer can't simply sell you to another company unless you accept it.
he can sell your labour-time, which is the point I was making

>Then learn how to survive innawoods if you do not want to work.
I do want to work, but I don't want it to be exploited, nor do I want others to be exploited. My liberation depends on theirs.

>You are being paid for your work.
Payment does not mean you aren't being exploited, is this really so hard to understand?

Read up to and including Chapter X.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1865/value-price-profit/ch02.htm#c8

https://www.marxists.org/subject/japan/sakisaka/exploitation.htm

https://socialistworker.org/2011/09/28/what-do-we-mean-exploitation

https://balafria.wordpress.com/2008/07/18/what-is-exploitation/

>>59040168
>Not to mention that democracy always seems to devolve into socialism.
literally what
how do you draw that conclusion? what evidence do you have for it?

>for not giving up the fruits of my labor is a violation of the NAP
and being forced to give up the fruits of my labour to survive is violating NAP

>>59038165
>proprietary bad
Freetards at dictating again.
Check muh freedom of choice

>>59040099
It means that if you actually want to have a chance of winning, you better pay for a lawyer.

>>59040168
>No it doesn't, being raped by Mohammed violates the NAP, getting taxed by Vlad The Dictator violates the NAP, getting shot by Che "I Love Murdering Children" Guevara for not giving up the fruits of my labor is a violation of the NAP, and these things are not probability, they are a certainty as evidenced by history.
So in other words, someone can shoot you and it's okay, as long as their paranoid delusions said you were going to rape them?

>>59040232
Try to learn English you worthless slime.

>>59040151
>China, the world's largest communist power

lmao, China isn't communist by any stretch of the imagination, no matter how much they profess otherwise. It's capitalism with some central planning thrown in. Only 3% of the companies are state owned.

>>59040255
Nah, english is boring.
Also, even americans can't speak it properly, so why bother?

>>59040202
I worded that poorly, I should have said that Democracy goes from something like Classical Liberalism (early USA) to incorporating many aspects of Socialism (Current USA to an extent, but mainly Europe). It works like that because eventually you let in too many commies, socialists and lefties, who demand these things, and then Tyranny of the Majority happens. You need to control what comes in your nation in order to preserve it or its values.

>being forced to justify my existence to the universe by making something of my life is a violation of the NAP
Literally what? I don't think you understand the NAP. You can starve to death on your own if you want, no one is forcing you to do that. In fact if you want to starve to death, please don't do it on my lawn.
>>59040239
No, I'm saying that importing potential rapists is bad, and casting out potential rapists preserves the NAP. Look at Europe and tell me immigration has improved society with a straight face. Importing revolutionaries who's only goal is to topple down everything you hold dear, who's only goal is to eventually genocide anyone who is not their class, is bad, and removing these people is not.

>>59040316
>and casting out potential rapists preserves the NAP.
Not if they haven't actually committed rape. The ones casting them out are initiating force, so it's a violation of the NAP.

>>59040202
>this is not anarchy
If you think so i kindly invite you to go to africa for a day.

>the opportunity to work for you, or starve?
I do not force them to work, they can do whatever they want. Again.. there are other options than to work in a factory to earn enough money to live.
Or simply go innawoods, nobody has a gun to your chest.

>work is exploitation, read up on it
>p-please read my propaganda and believe me
Work is NOT exploitation and your retarded bullshit ideology written by a retarded NEET is trash.

>Paying people means that you don't exploit them? Did it occur to you that the quantity you pay also matters?
Yes and yes. They are being paid enough for a normal life.

>Where does your profit come from?
From my company, meaning from the work of my workers and me.

>Why do you take home money despite doing little or no work for it?
This is not an argument at all and absolutely retarded. Leading a company on your own means to have the most work to do.

>with what capital?
They money you saved up of course. Or buy a cheap chink swiss army knife for $5 and go innawoods.

>this still fails to account for those with little or no capital at all
Then get a job or learn something you can do on your own and become a freelancer.

>he can sell your labour-time
No he can't unless you specifically agree to work for another company.

>Payment does not mean you aren't being exploited, is this really so hard to understand?
Is it really so hard to understand that workers get their fair share of the profit aka their payment? They are not being exploited. It's not that hard to understand.

>more commie propaganda
No thanks. I suggest you take a course in economy 101 instead.

>>59040151
>those are deaths caused by anarchy.
learn what anarchy is (hint: it's not smashing windows and behaving like a monkey)

>nearly all international humanitarian aid comes from capitalist countries
a killer giving his victims aid does not make the killing go away; the action remains

China is not a communist or even socialist country, nor even a state-capitalist one. It's like saying NK is 'democratic' because it's in the name.

>>59040316
>You need to control what comes in your nation in order to preserve it or its values.
I can't see why the values ought to be preserved, that's assuming that the values are good because they are traditional, which is a logical fallacy, which if you extend means that you ought to be preserving feudalism, slavery and early human anarchy at the moment

Though I disagree with you on your view of democracy (but your analysis of certain problems is good), what would you have instead? I am also looking for a better and fairer method of governance.

>>59040239
>It means that if you actually want to have a chance of winning, you better pay for a lawyer.
Or you read it yourself, unless you're not intelligent enough.

>>59040350
the "this isnt real anarchy" argument is a joke, anarchy is simply without a government, ancommunism and ancapism are both different forms of anarchism

>>59040374
Intelligence is not knowledge. Someone with 180 IQ who goes to law school will make a better lawyer than someone with 180 IQ who doesn't. Even someone with 140 IQ who goes to law school would probably do better.

Also, your whole reasoning seems to be "if you have 90 IQ and are poor you don't deserve to have rights".

>>59040350
>Work is NOT exploitation and your retarded bullshit ideology written by a retarded NEET is trash.

"I haven't actually evaluated the argument to see whether or not it's garbage, but I'm going to pretend like I know it is anyway, because uh, commies suck and shit"

Mt. Stupid in action.

why can't you artists just agree on a middle ground? Essentially an egalitarian meritocracy.

>>59040350
I don't think communists get the fact that in an anarcho capitalist society it would be cut up into very small communities that do their own thing, it's a decentralized thing with only one rule, the NAP. They can have their communism as long as it's voluntary and doesn't result to violence, same goes with mutualism, capitalism and really anything, with anarcho communism there is no choice, you are forced into communism whether you like it or not

>>59040422
Because we have not yet resolved a fundamental disagreement on whether positive rights and external factors exist.

>>59040381
>anarchy is simply without a government
>africa
>working government
Kek.

>>59040399
>Also, your whole reasoning seems to be "if you have 90 IQ and are poor you don't deserve to have rights".
Nice straw man. Everyone deserves and DOES HAVE the same rights. It's your retarded rethoric of muh workers are slaves.
Get a job and stop crying, NEET.

>>59040406
>"I haven't actually evaluated the argument to see whether or not it's garbage, but I'm going to pretend like I know it is anyway, because uh, commies suck and shit"
>t. autistic commiefag with no argument
But yeah.. that retarded NEET fag who never worked a single day in his entire life and leeched off his rich friend who had a rich factory owner as daddy sure knows about economy or anything at all.

Commies are truly mentall retarded.

>>59040336
Truly non-harmful members of society wouldn't be cast out, only the ones who present a problem, like criminals and revolutionary. If we physically removed all the gangsters, degenerates and illegal aliens in Chicago, LA, Detroit, etc, crime would go down, society would be improved, and the NAP would be violated less. The physical removal would most likely be done before the libertarian society is established.

>>59040428
Again, in such a decentralized society, how would you enforce the NAP? It basically comes down to "and hope everything ends up working out", and maybe usually it does, but what if some odd situation happened where 90% of people decided to kill the other 10%? Who would come to the rescue of the 10% and say "hey, you can't do that"?

>>59040452
Roaming death squads normally.

>>59040448
>Nice straw man. Everyone deserves and DOES HAVE the same rights. It's your retarded rethoric of muh workers are slaves.
>Get a job and stop crying, NEET.
But you're saying it's okay if being poor and low IQ means you can't actually exercise your rights. Having a right, but not the ability to exercise it, makes the right meaningless.

>>59040350
>If you think so i kindly invite you to go to africa for a day.
read anarchist authors and learn what anarchy is, or hell just read the wikipedia (or any encyclopedia) page on it

>Work is NOT exploitation and your retarded bullshit ideology written by a retarded NEET is trash.

argument.isLacking() // hint: returns true

>Leading a company on your own means to have the most work to do.
how do you quantify this labour? management I can understand, but what exactly are you doing that means you get the money that others produce? what work is it? if it's just management, is that all you're being paid for? if so, you are a worker, not a capitalist

>learn something you can do on your own and become a freelancer.
this cannot work for everyone, and my struggle is not personal but on the class level

>Is it really so hard to understand that workers get their fair share of the profit aka their payment?
Yes, because they are not being paid fair share. Clearly for example sweatshop workers are not being paid fair share. Why do you think you are any different? Because the laws are a little stricter? Because you have a pool table at work? Because your boss calls you by your first name, and you wear a nice t-shirt?

Profit originates in the exploitation of workers. It's detailed in what I linked.

>>59040422
>Essentially an egalitarian meritocracy.
That would be great, if people got what they deserved, and Capitalism does not allow that, because the boss has to make a profit, which he does not deserve. Capitalism also suffers from its own internal contradictions and damage to the environment.

>>59040428
>with anarcho communism there is no choice, you are forced into communism whether you like it or not
proofs, they are required

>>59040381
>anarchy is simply without a government
patently false

>adhom means I don't have to argue with your points! nah nah!

>>59040422
>egalitarian meritocracy
Basically America. We could have it if the uninformed majority didn't keep voting in neolibs who pretend to care about them.

>>59040448
>But yeah.. that retarded NEET fag who never worked a single day in his entire life and leeched off his rich friend who had a rich factory owner as daddy sure knows about economy or anything at all.

This is some impressively retarded thinking. Let me break it down for you: you don't have to participate in a system to understand how it functions. That's the whole point of historical analysis. Nobody alive has lived through the French Revolution but we can still piece together the causes and processes involved in it.

I'd also advise against bragging about your own ignorance in the future. It just makes you look like a fucking moron, nothing more.

>>59040470
>he still tries to use the straw man
Pathetic. I never implied not said this. In fact, it's the opposite. Everyone has the same rights and opportunities to excercise them.
You won't get the world best lawyer, sure, but you get one if you need one. Same rights.

Equality != equity

>>59040449
>criminals
Which presumably includes illegal immigrants, even those who have never initiated force against anyone. Which means deporting them would entail violating the NAP.

The rest of your post is basically saying the ends justify the means, which is pretty much the polar opposite of the NAP.

And what if, after your libertarian society is established, you do allow immigrants and temporary migrant workers to stay in the country, and some migrants stay too long? Unless they actually commit violent crimes, using force to make them go away would violate the NAP.

>>59040463
And what would stop the 90% from majority from having even more death squads? Who would control these death squads anyway?

>>59040506
>Equality != equity
Funny how you've hauled out this old rusty strawman, after falsely accusing me of using a strawman argument. The quality of your lawyer most definitely does play a part in how the court case will turn out, which means if you're poor and stupid, you're much less likely to win a case, even if your rights actually were violated. Which means, a rich and smart person might have 1.4, and a poor and stupid person would have 0.8, in terms of how "strong" their rights are in terms of actually being able to exercise them, but you say that is okay.

>>59040474
>and learn what anarchy is
Already told you to go to africa and enjoy anarchism, or do you not like that idea?

>argument.isLacking() // hint: returns true
Literally not an argument and neither is the diarrhea written by the NEET loser you praise so much.

>how do you quantify this labour? management I can understand, but what exactly are you doing that means you get the money that others produce? what work is it?
I manage my company. I make the decisions, i calculate, i plan, i do the business. All this is something a normal worker just is not capable of.

>this cannot work for everyone
If you are not capable of evolving yourself maybe you should just get a simple job with your simple abilities and simple mind.

>they are not being paid fair share
Yes they are, simple factory workers do not deserve $20/h which would also be economically not sustainable.

>sweatshop workers
Some bangladeshi, turks and chinks? Not my country, not my problem. Working condition in china do suck major ass, but that's the problem of the chinese.

>Profit originates in the exploitation of workers
No it DOES NOT. Workers get their fair share.

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For fuck sake, learn the difference between capitalism and CORPORATISM!

Fucking morons!

>>59040502
Is that why the ideology fomed by a useless NEET loser has so miserably failed each and everytime is was tried?
Guess his understanding wasn't so great afterall if his ideology never was successful and still isn't.
Maybe you'll see what retarded bullshit this is when you grow up.

>>59040577
This is not a straw man. It's you being ignorant. Equality means the same rights for everyone, that's it, which is the case.
Both parties will get a defender if they can't afford one. Sure the lawyer plays a role, but you will not magically win a case by buying a lawyer.

>>59040653
>inspired a revolution that transformed a country from a backwater shithole to a global superpower that put the first man in space in less than 50 years

You have a very interesting definition of failure.

>>59040474
Holy shit guys, we need a helicopter stat!
>Karl Marx is not a hypocrite and a NEET
Yes he is, and that is why no one takes him, or anyone who calls themselves Marxist, seriously anymore.
>profit originates in the exploitation of workers, in the pages i linked
Yeah, pages on websites like marxists.org socialistworker.org, can't possibly be biased now can it?
>anarcho communism no choice
How do you enforce collective ownership, voluntarily, when humans are greedy, and the concept of property is deeply ingrained in our psychology? You would need to FORCE it upon them.
>la la la adhom adhom
Well that is argument ad fallacy. Before, communism was tried, you could make the argument that Marx's character didn't matter, but since Marxism has been attempted, and it has failed EVERY SINGLE TIME, people can and will point to his character as justification for dismissing his retarded theories which he had no intention of validating with evidence and facts. I'm pretty sure Marx never even stepped in a factory in his life, and ordinary socialist workers hated him. Does that not tell you something?
>>59040543
>ILLEGAL immigrants
>not criminals
It's in the name lad.
>ends justify the means, which is not the NAP
Everything is not black and white unfortunately, and we cannot live 100% on principle, and unfortunately in order to establish a libertarian society, we would to violate the NAP just a little bit.
>migrants staying to long
If they support themselves, and don't violate the NAP, I don't see the issue, and in a libertarian society, if they didn't they would most likely starve. If someone wanted to give charity to migrant parasites on his own property it would be a violation of the NAP to tell him he can't. It would only start to be my problem when they move from his property to mine or someone else's.
>>59040640
This
>>59040692
So USSR is Marxism now?

>>59040640
>when bad things happen it's not real capitalism!

>>59040709
>It's in the name lad.
I never said they weren't criminals though, merely that their crime did not involve force. So by deporting them, you are initiating aggression against them, and thus violating the NAP.

>>59040713
Not an argument.

>/g/ - Technology

>>59040577
If you're a smart poor person, they'll just settle out of court (Pay you off) so what's it matter in the end?
Allot of legal issues come from abusing the system of being able to bleed the person out with constant lawsuits that aren't intended to work.

>>59040575
"Capitalists" are the people, what you're thinking is "the ones who managed to get to the top of the leader board."
Nobody is going to stop you from ordering custom PCBs

Are we going to have to call the /pol/ocks to get this shit off of /g/?

>>59040692
>ignores what a miserable failure the USSR and it's satelite states were
>ignores how poor the people were and that they starved
>ignored the crimes commited by the USSR
>ignores how poor the ex-commie states are today
Very interesting definition of failure indeed.

>russia
>global superpower
TOPKEK.

>>59040725
They are breaking the contract of the voluntary society, violating the NAP.

>>59040709
>So USSR is Marxism now?

It was absolutely inspired by him, definitely. Lenin read a lot of Marx's work. The way they tried to reorganize production didn't pan out though. The basic way things were set up were still too similar to capitalism.

>>59040755
>inspired by marxism
>is marxism
You said it yourself, it's not Marxism. Of course it was inspired by him, and that's why people point the the USSR as an example of communism failing.

>>59038531
That pic isn't a good reply though, just because some people who were against X were retarded doesn't mean X isn't retarded too.
What's the name of that fallacy?

Someone even took the time to put it through gimp. Is leftypol this starved for arguments?

Was this dumb "muh capitalists" talk ripped directly from the text books in 1984 or were they based on some of the stupid things people said back then?

>>59040751
When did they agree to that contract?

>>59040783
Marxism is a way of thinking, not some plan that outlines how you should do things. Marx wrote very little about socialism and communism.

>>59039971
Just how many of you here are not immigrants or the descendants of immigrants?
Oh, right...

>>59040842
And this way of thinking has manifested itself through many failed states, and more recently, the destruction of western culture through Cultural Marxism.
>>59040840
They agreed when they decided to become part of the voluntary society. Unless you were talking about before it was established, which is more complicated then that.
>>59040918
And? I don't see an argument. They immigrated legally, and the ones that didn't were deported. The ones that were deemed a threat to society were not let in either. I really don't see where you are going with this.

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>be a fat neet with nothing to live for
>draw a cartoon with the monopoly man as everything i hate
>champion an erotic fantasy novel written by another fat neet
>wish to suckle at the teet of other peoples hard work, just like my relationship with my parents

>>59040972
>cultural marxism

That has nothing to do with Marx. Marx didn't care about culture. Please stop parroting things you have no understanding of.

>>59040918
How many of us are descendants from immigrants who came here BEFORE it was awesome? oh right.
Nobody wanted to come here until we already had it all set up and running, all the reward with none of the work.
Country's are built by the PEOPLE, they don't just spring up out of the sand *badum tis*

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what do we have here?

>>59041064
Yes it does, Cultural Marxism is Marxism applied to culture. Marxism being a way of thinking, created by Karl Marx. Don't be this naive.

>>59040972
>They agreed when they decided to become part of the voluntary society. Unless you were talking about before it was established, which is more complicated then that.
What about children, infants? At what point are they considered to have agreed to this contract? At birth? The moment they become legal adults? (and if this society is purely voluntary, who is going to decide when someone becomes a legal adult?).

>>59041289
MLSKMG isn't the same thing as Marxism.

>>59041325
Applying Marxism to culture makes about as much sense as applying psychoanalysis to astrophysics.

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>>59038735

>>59041374
That's completely irrelevant. That's what people do with his ideas. See >>59041375.
>>59041344
That's quite complicated. It would be decided by the family (or the contract, if that's agreed) what being an adult means. Children and Infants can't take care of themselves, so they cannot agree to this contract until they reach that point.

>>59041325
Cultural Marxism is the idea that culture and identity are the primary things that shape society. Marx believed that society and culture are shaped by material conditions. The two things are not the same. It's like saying Creationist Darwinism.

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>>59041450

>>59038165
>>59038513
>>59038531
>>59038623
>something was tried several times
>millions of people dead as a result
>retarded kids want to try it again
>equally retarded leftist professors encourage these kids
>"Hurr punch Nazis!"
>"Muh 6 million Joos!"
>"Blease sweep hundreds of millions of deaths from starvation, genocide, and proxy wars under da rug bcuz muh gommunizm never hurted nobudy"
>"ecks dee"

Basically Nazis under a different flag. Go back to /pol/.

>>59041497
Not an argument :^)

>>59041523
See >>59039953

>>59041450
Wrong, Cultural Marxism is defined as the application of Marxist ideology to social sciences, and culture, and that is what I mean by it. Of course they are not the same, but that doesn't matter. It's the same shit colored lens of retardation, just pointed at something else.
>>59041551
>implying capitalism is directly responsible for those things
Kek. More than likely feudal nigger warlords in Africa are responsible for those things. In the first world, over-regulated capitalism, and to an extent overpopulation (which communism doesn't solve) is responsible for people being unable to work.

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>>59039953

>>59041593
Communism wasn't ``directly responsible" for the famines either.

>>59041595
So killing 100 million people a year is somehow better than killing that same number of people over several decades?

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>>59041611

>>59038165
>comparing tangible goods to works of information on a medium that is geared around duplication and transformation of information
goods are given value by the human effort required to produce them, its only logical that the value of works of information should plummet when placed on the internet.

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>>59041624
its like you think non of those are features of communism

>>59041643
Russian Civil War casualties were MUCH closer to 1% of the population than to 50%.

>>59041593
If it doesn't analyze class relations and how society is shaped by material conditions, then it isn't Marxist, period.

>>59041681
>Whenever Communism has been tried, it's killed X many people
>Whenever Capitalism has been tried, it's killed more than X people
>Therefore Capitalism is better

>>59041551
You can't deflect it. Communism is open to abuse, with Russia, China, and North Korea being all the evidence I need. You're a leftist Nazi. You're ok with a system of government that is responsible for more deaths in the 20th century than any other. You have no idea how good you have it, you spoiled little shit piece.

>>59039035
>comparing one of the most celibrated authors of the 20th century to a low grade neoliberal
piss poor comparison m8, even neoliberals arent too fond of ayn rand compared to other neoliberal writers

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Communists are subhuman. Prove me wrong.

>>59041611
Wrong, see the Holodomor.
>>59041686
>no true scotsman
Call it what you want, it doesn't change the fact that Cultural Marxism is at the very least, heavily inspired from Marx's work.
>>59041700
There is no way that statistic is accurately reflective of capitalism.
NO one liked living in the USSR or any other commie shithole, except for the elite who established themselves as dictators. How you people rationalize that is beyond me. It's completely hypocritical. At least capitalism never promised equity.

>>59041715
>implying capitalism isn't open to abuse

kill everyone in this thread

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>>59041700
except you are using the Internet, a computer and you drive a car

all brought to you buy evil capitalism

>>59041735
Provide a coherent definition of "human" that does not include Communists.

>>59041742
>implying replacing a system of elites who answer to the market with a system of elites who answer to themselves is better
Jesus Christ you are delusional.

>>59039061
>not watching Kuzu no Honkai
You are missing the true AOTS.

>>59041754
The Internet was not created by a market economy, are you retarded? And computers and cars are produced under Communism too.

>>59041738
It's not a no true scotsman if it doesn't actually have anything to do with the thing it's supposedly "inspired" by. Cultural Marxism is "inspired" by Marx in the same way homeopathic crystals are "inspired" by quantum mechanics.

>>59041735
Communists and rednecks should be shot in sight

>>59041772
Capitalism has a tendency to turn into exactly what you describe though. But you're probably one of those retards who thinks monopolies can't exist in an unregulated market, because *MAGIC SMOKE*.