/mkg/ - Mechanical Keyboard General

first for best girl asuka

File: IMG_1731.jpg (2MB, 3264x2448px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 3264x2448px

this plank will hopefully soon my my planck

Any good wireless keyboards out there with minimal input lag? I'm going to be PC game on my couch and dont want to deal with all the wires.

File: MD-25068_20160920102044_c32ac3c3a38827f1.jpg (148KB, 1023x682px) Image search: [Google]

148KB, 1023x682px

For the anon looking at the KBP V80 in the last thread, they showed up on Massdrop just this morning so if your shipping costs are low enough this could be a nice deal.

I know people were giving you shit about the ABS keycaps but you can just replace them later if you decide you don't like them.

Poorfag here, i'm split between these two keyboards, any advice in which is better?

https://amzn.com/B01K9CNIWK

https://amzn.com/B01DBJTZU2

File: large_1686_zab2_3.jpg (380KB, 1200x800px) Image search: [Google]

380KB, 1200x800px

Is the Ducky One a solid choice for a first mechanical keyboard?

File: 20161108_112942.jpg (4MB, 4032x3024px) Image search: [Google]

4MB, 4032x3024px

I got this Rosewill keyboard last week for 20 bucks new. It's fantastic. Has red keys.

File: IMAG0058.jpg (2MB, 4160x2340px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 4160x2340px

Bought the motospeed ck104, so far so good, it's my first try too and I'm happy with it. Planning to get the ducky shine 5 next time

File: mkey.png (17KB, 562x131px) Image search: [Google]

17KB, 562x131px

did i do the right thing @.@

File: IMG_1881.jpg (2MB, 3264x2448px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 3264x2448px

>>57441678
>anything with mx browns
meh
>ducky flipper
meh

>>57441744
after using blues for over 4 years im pretty much done with it; brown has a very slight tactile feel and is quieter . it was either browns or clears; i chose brown because i tried them before

File: IMG_20150908_151735950.jpg (2MB, 3264x1836px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 3264x1836px

Cherry mx blue with 0-rings

>>57441750
you made the wrong choice for sure

>>57441145
I know a few people here have bought the Tomoko but I don't recall them saying anything about it. Build quality is probably about the same.

>>57441153
Very solid. You can get them with stock PBT caps and a bunch of different switches, and the prices are hard to beat.

>>57441945
I've used a Razer BlackWidow for 8 years, but I don't like it much for writing. It's fine for games and coding, but not very fluid for writing longer things like stories. Are there any switches you guys think are better for writing?

>>57441076
Please help.

>>57441987
pen and paper

>>57442089
It's a bitch to get that scanned to a computer, though.

Im going to a recycling center to hunt for old electronics.

Is there anything I can say or ask for to better my chances of picking up a good board?

>>57442138
Bucklan sporngs

>>57438897
Considering V80 on MD.

Y/N

>>57442423
Fucking do it

File: Capture.png (205KB, 860x274px) Image search: [Google]

205KB, 860x274px

>>57442482
Done. So I can say goodbye to getting aftermarket keycaps now, yeah?

>>57442545
For Matias switches? Maybe. You actually do have a few options but they're way, way harder to find. The good news is, Alps-style switches are getting somewhat more popular, so there's increased demand for designers to make compatible caps. Keep an eye on the group buy scene.

>>57441076
>>57442060
Pls

File: lightcycle_dsa_ansi_01.png (274KB, 960x540px) Image search: [Google]

274KB, 960x540px

>>57442545
Nope. You can still get some after market keycaps.
Pic related is dropping soon for a second time over at geekhack. There have also been other sets as well.
Alps are not as common as cherry mounts, but you aren't completely out of luck

>>57441076
>Any good wireless keyboards out there with minimal input lag?
No such thing. Varmilo makes some wireless mechs but you're not gonna be using them to play competitive CounterStrike. You're asking for a unicorn, anon.

>>57442656
Input lag depends on many factors, not just the keyboard. Now there are a few options like the Filco Manila Air and the Filco Convertible. There is also the Anne pro with RGB lighting. If you want you can also buy a traditional keyboard then get a Bluetooth converter (if you do choose to go that rout be careful as some converters don't support full size keyboards)

>>57441750
I'm at the same point. Ordered some of the Gateron Browns off a recent Massdrop. Should arrive middle of December. Christmas comes Early!

Is there any keyboards without arrow keys, home, end, but still with Numpad?

>>57443056
Cooler Master makes such a thing, but I forget the name.

File: keychatter_2015-04-07_19-06-58.jpg (647KB, 2400x1714px) Image search: [Google]

647KB, 2400x1714px

>>57443056
you mean like this?

>>57443272
exactly

>>57443318
that specific keyboard is the Lightsaver V1. There is also a V2 that has more options

>>57441750
i use poker 3 with browns, if you find it comfortable then don't listen to the tro/g/lodytes telling you otherwise

>>57441987
>for writing
This is why Topre makes keyboards

Are there any lighter switches than the 35g gateron clears?

>>57443579
No, why on earth would anyone want switches that are light enough to be actuated by just resting your fingers on them?

>>57443638
I don't rest my fingers on the keys and have weak fingers so 35g feels heavy. Is there any way to make it feel lighter by using lube or something?

File: dc-comics-the-joker-purple-coat-version-sixth-scale-suicide-squad-902795-07.jpg (349KB, 692x1000px) Image search: [Google]

349KB, 692x1000px

>Used to have a Logitech G30 (v1 then v2)
>Buy shitty G.Skill mechanical 'gaymer' keyboard (browns) when it first came out a few months back.
>Still keep hitting capslock key.
mfw I fell for the mechanical keyboard meme.

>>57443701
how do you even function in society if 35g feels heavy? like can you even lift a carton of milk?
lube would help yes, but not so much because gaterons are already lubed a little

File: P1070036.jpg (2MB, 2272x1704px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 2272x1704px

>>57443638
>by just resting your fingers on them?
how fat are you anon?

>>57443701
that's a first, most rubber domes are around 80g of force, heck apple keyboards have around 65g and are one of the lighter membranes out there. If you really want you can buy custom springs that require less then 35g and swap them out, problem is I don't know anyone who mass produces springs that light.

>>57443752
How weak are you that 35grams of force is too heavy to actuate the switches?

>>57442992
>>57443430
I was originally going to buy the v60 cause I thought it looked so nice + the stock case gave it a nice square look, but I heard some bad things about it so I went with the pok3r; can't beat reliability

File: photo_2016-11-08_21-45-24.jpg (157KB, 1280x960px) Image search: [Google]

157KB, 1280x960px

>>57443790
>that 35grams of force is too heavy to actuate the switches?
I dunno where you're getting that from, I use my Shine 4 with mx clears at work.

I'm just wondering how heavy your fingers are if resting your fingers on 35g switches is a problem for you.

>not using 150g springs

File: Gateway-ANYKEY-Keyboard.jpg (129KB, 750x307px) Image search: [Google]

129KB, 750x307px

threadly reminder that the best keyboard in the world uses rubber dome.

File: P1060756.jpg (2MB, 2272x1704px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 2272x1704px

>>57443886
The statement is correct, but you posted the wrong keyboard.

Here, let me help you with that.

>>57443886
>best keyboard
>Bigass enter
pick one

>>57443840
I thought you were >>57443701
I have no issues with actuating the switches by resting my fingers on them

>>57443886
you know there is a mechanical version of that same exact layout

>>57443903
you should feel up one of these big ass enter-keys with your pinky sometime before passing judgement.

>>57443905
>you know there is a mechanical version of that same exact layout
no, there isn't.

File: P1060764.jpg (2MB, 2272x1704px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 2272x1704px

>>57443936
How's it different from the ANSI enter key?

Sure, you're wasting some space where \ could be, but unless you hate yourself, you're going to be hitting it on the home row, where it's the closest to your pinky.

The bigass enter is like the retarded brother of ISO enter (which has terminal cancer).

>>57443936
>no, there isn't.
yeah there is, you have two as a matter of fact:
Northgate Omnikey and Focus Programmable Keyboard. Both of them use alps switches

>>57443970
>The bigass enter is like the retarded brother of ISO enter (which has terminal cancer).
nice

File: photo_2016-11-08_22-01-32.jpg (44KB, 640x640px) Image search: [Google]

44KB, 640x640px

>>57443986
no seriously, who thought it'd be a good idea to make you move your pinky as far from the home-row as possible.

They should've just removed it altogether in favor of some special snowflake character that ceased to be in use multiple centuries ago and have people use the enter key on the numpad instead.

>>57444029
yea i agree dude i fucking constantly missclick that shit when im on my school laptop.

>>57443970
I like big enter keys because it reminds me of my childhood.

>>57443977
Omnikey only has 4-way arrow keys. Focus doesn't have macro support, as well as some other differences. most models have 4-way arrow keys. FK-5001is a cool model though, I chose this one over it because of macro support.

>>57443977
another difference I should ass is the remapping ability of the gateway anykey gives you access to the entire keyboard other than the four program-related keys.

File: 20161108_220826.jpg (3MB, 4032x3024px) Image search: [Google]

3MB, 4032x3024px

>>57444081
I usually just switch the keyboard layout to US-ANSI if I have to use an ISO keyboard for a longer period of time.

Thank goodness Thinkpad keyboards are easily replaced.

>>57444148
yea i would do the same if i wasn't swedish and actually have to type in that shit language a lot when im at school :/

File: WP_20161108_13_17_21_Pro[1].jpg (442KB, 1600x900px) Image search: [Google]

442KB, 1600x900px

>>57444148
spotted worst plugsuit in the corner of your image. no wonder you hate big enter keys, it's a matter of taste impairment.

File: photo_2016-11-08_22-24-43.jpg (171KB, 1280x960px) Image search: [Google]

171KB, 1280x960px

>>57444202
I dunno about Swedish, but I just do Umlaute with " + a/u/o. Though it's probable that the meme letters of my local language don't get used half as often as your meme letters.

>>57444233
Eh, I'm not a fan of hers either, but I'm not going to turn down a second hand figurine for less than 1K yen.

File: WP_20161108_13_35_05_Pro[1].jpg (538KB, 1600x900px) Image search: [Google]

538KB, 1600x900px

>>57444304
I can't blame you for that, though I actually think I wouldn't accept a mari figure for free, I kind of hate her and 2.0 in general it'd just be clutter.

these were <2k yen brand new in some kind of two pack, friend picked them up for me on a trip. prices like that made me wish I had them pick up some more stuff for me while they were over there.

File: P1070037.jpg (135KB, 960x1280px) Image search: [Google]

135KB, 960x1280px

>>57444464
Noice.

Yeah, I didn't really get the point of Marii in there, she felt like a character that just got slapped in for no particular reason.

Second hand (second hand meaning that they're in absolutely mint condition) manga are cheap as shit too. Just make sure to not waste as much money as I did on those crane games if you ever get the pleasure to go.

>>57444521
I heard second hand in general is dirt over there, cultural norm that used stuff is garbage or something. I wonder what kind of tech is sitting around hobbyist shops in the outskirts.

File: is this you.png (6KB, 296x174px) Image search: [Google]

6KB, 296x174px

>>57444640

>>57444613
>I heard second hand in general is dirt over there
Dirt cheap maybe. All the second-hand stuff I've picked up has been in perfect condition.

>>57444721
my sides.

I bought the CM Storm Quickfire Rapid-i a couple of years ago, now the LEDs are starting to die.

File: scissor-switch-apple-keyboard.png (374KB, 640x340px) Image search: [Google]

374KB, 640x340px

Why you guys are so obsessed with this mechanical shit when scissor-switch keyboards (laptops/apple style) are much better and faster to type on?

>>57441076
Filco minila or convertible2.

File: P1070038.jpg (2MB, 2272x1704px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 2272x1704px

>>57444949
That's some weak bait right there.

>>57441287
Great brand! my first as well (browns)

>>57445278
Is it really any better? I mean look at those giant keys, man.. it probably takes ages to move your fingers around.

>>57445461
Pretty sure the keys are of equal size.
>>57444949
They are comfier but I would buy a chiclet keyboard if I wanted one for gaming only.

File: LINGBAO-JIGUANSHI-Backlit-Computer-Gaming-Emitting-9Led-Light-Modes-Mechanical-Keyboard-Black-Blue-Switches-Metal-Panels.jpg (321KB, 1000x1000px) Image search: [Google]

321KB, 1000x1000px

Ok, lads, this is the only mechanical keyboard I can afford ($25 on sale). Is it any good or should I buy good normal keyboard instead?

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/LINGBAO-JIGUANSHI-Backlit-Computer-Game-mechanical-keyboard-black-shaft-green-axis-computer-emitting-metal-87-key/32653111593.html

>>57443272
expensive as fuck :/

>>57443272
That's a nice layout.
>>57443752
anon's a big guy
>>57443897
Is that a matt3o spacebar? How is it?

Are Gat Blacks a good first linear switch? I've only used MX Browns, Blues and Clears and I'm leaning towards clears being my favorite but I want to try linears that aren't too heavy like MX blacks.

>>57446018
Why not get a cheap POS keyboard with cherry blacks for 5 bucks. Chances are that if its old enough you would get it with vintage blacks which are slightly smoother then modern cherry

What are some options for good PBT keys that aren't super thin like the ones on massdrop and from Ducky?
Any Christmas themed keys?

>>57444721
Is my keyboard too far back?

>>57446240
IMSTO makes thick PBT sets.
http://imsto.cn/

>>57446240
Ducky and NPKC make thick PBT at 1.5mm

>>57445789
Eh, if you can't get clears, go for it

Which switches should I get to increase the perceived size of my penis by as much as possible?

>>57446791
topre

>>57446791
IBM beam spring. Good luck finding one.

File: keychatter_Realforce_87U_55G.jpg (116KB, 1000x667px) Image search: [Google]

116KB, 1000x667px

>>57446791
This one:
https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=2114

Nothing beats overpriced rubber domes (pic related)

>>57446805
That thing is so ugly but I'd love a HHKB or Realforce with MX stems so I could put thicc blanks on it. I also hate the mismatched legends on my HHKB JP.

>>57446939
why not go for topre clones? You can get some TKL ones for under 100 bucks

>>57446805
non contact switch =/= rubber dome

>>57446805
>Nothing beats overpriced rubber domes

Except for complicated Alps SKCM.
Or Gat clears
Or Mod switches
Or basically any buckling spring.

>>57446999

They are very much rubber domes. What they are not is over contact membrane.

File: FCMS.png (254KB, 500x338px) Image search: [Google]

254KB, 500x338px

>>57446999
Its a rubber dome buddy and nothing you say will change that. The actuation mechanism are different, but in topre the rubber dome is there to provide the support, weight and tactile feedback of the switch. Rubber domes are an integral part of the mechanism and just because they aren't partially responsible for the actuation that doesn't automatically mean they don't exist.

There is nothing wrong with this and this implementation is much more durable then standard membranes, not to mention they don't have a mushy feeling, but don't say they aren't rubber domes because they are.

>>57440707
bump for madvillainy.

Also what board is that?

>>57447019
>>57447058
Rubber domes are contact switches/ Meaning they make an electrical contact.
Topre do not.

File: Memami.jpg (98KB, 1334x750px) Image search: [Google]

98KB, 1334x750px

>>57447066
I recognize that space bar. That is the noppop choc mini

File: rubber.png (268KB, 1700x957px) Image search: [Google]

268KB, 1700x957px

>>57447078
No rubberdomes refer to the domes that are made of rubber.

Use google or read the wiki page:
https://deskthority.net/wiki/Rubber_dome

>>57447078

Rubber domes are a key return mechanism.

Whether or not they have a graphite contact affixed has no bearing on whether or not they are rubber domes.

Some cheap non-Topre rubberdome boards do not even have a contact on the dome itself, and instead press two separated portions of a membrane sheet together. In this case the contact is the upper sheet, not the dome.

Topres are rubber domes with an electrostatic capacitance sensing mechanism.

>>57447083
Has the spacebar been cut? or is that hair im seeing

>>57447109
No it was heat shrunk

>>57447089
>>57447099
>Rubber dome is a type of keyboard switching technology
This is not what Topre uses. Not even remotely close.

>>57447109
Looks cut to me.

File: PSG-22.jpg (131KB, 1060x988px) Image search: [Google]

131KB, 1060x988px

>>57447140
Did you read the wiki it even says it right there that topres are capacitive rubber domes and it explains how the rubber dome aids in the actuation mechanism

>>57447152
>topres are capacitive rubber domes and it explains how the rubber dome aids in the actuation mechanism
That is incorrect. It even states in your wiki that the rubber is there solely as a spring. The actuation of the switch is non contact.

>>57447140
>>57447152
>>57447168

I can understand the fear of buyer's remorse and having your expensive fashion accessory being associated with cheap rubber dome over membrane boards, but this is just getting silly.

File: Smug-182.jpg (138KB, 838x638px) Image search: [Google]

138KB, 838x638px

>>57447168
Its still aids it though and is an integral part. I've said that multiple times yet for some reason you don't seem to understand

>>57447168

Sandwiched membrane boards only have the domes there to act as springs there too, but they're still rubberdome boards.

File: SOr.jpg (14KB, 480x360px) Image search: [Google]

14KB, 480x360px

>>57447168
Mitsumi hybrid switches are still considered rubber domes though so that argument is invalid

>>57446971
Which ones? Isn't there just the RC930? You can't really go out and order that whenever...

>>57447178
>>57447183
>>57447184
>>57447187
Unlike rubber dome the Topre switches can have their actuation point and travel adjusted.

Again you're calling a non contact switch a contact switch. Pretty silly.

>>57447221

Incorporating a rubber dome doesn't imply anything about the contact mechanism.

>>57447221
TOPRE BTFO

>>57447229
>Rubber dome is a type of keyboard switching technology
From the wiki.

>>57447216
Noppoo also has theirs which some are in stock:

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Noppoo-new-108-electrostic-capacitive-pro-mechanical-keyboard-topre-clone-switches-gaming-keyboard-PBT-keycap-detachable/2039433313.html

>>57447237

Capacitive sensing to trigger a keystroke is a form of switching, poor lost anon. It doesn't have to involve an immediate electrical contact.

>>57447249
I'm just saying what the wiki says. Not my fault your argument fall apart.

>>57447237
By that logic a BMW i3 is an electric car

>>57447255

Wiki also says Topres are rubber domes.

Checkmate.

>>57447255
How dumb are you without the rubber dome the switch wont work, that is why they are classified as a rubber dome.
Also why would topre be under rubber domes in the wiki if they aren't?

>>57447261
Please quote where.

File: IMG_20161101_160856.jpg (3MB, 4096x2304px) Image search: [Google]

3MB, 4096x2304px

>tfw I already miss my chiclet keyboard for gaming

Still, you can't beat aesthetic. Also, why the fuck does Clover do this to my pics?

>>57447266

Bottom of the page, also visible via screenshot here: >>57447089

I expect a full apology in writing before end of day.

>>57447266
>but certain rubber dome switches, such as Topre switches, use capacitive springs, and a small number of boards used a PCB.
>but certain rubber dome switches, such as Topre switches
>rubber dome switches, such as Topre switches
>rubber dome
>Topre

>>57447275
>>57447276
And thanks for proving my point that the wiki contradicts itself.

File: 800px-Topre_Short_Throw_-_Dome_Comparison.jpg (40KB, 800x362px) Image search: [Google]

40KB, 800x362px

>>57447293
you seem to think that rubber domes refers to the carbon pad at the top, but it doesn't. Rubber domes are a physical sheet of rubber that is shaped like a dome. What is so hard to understand. Look at this picture of naked topres and tell me what you see, because what I see is rubber domes.

>>57447268
What keycaps?

>>57447305
Really they're more like flat-top cones.

File: miami.jpg (144KB, 1296x745px) Image search: [Google]

144KB, 1296x745px

>>57447307
those look like knock of Miamis

>>57447305
A rubber dome is a contact switch.

>>57447314
You keep repeating this, it won't make it any more true.

File: Kbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbby.png (174KB, 416x396px) Image search: [Google]

174KB, 416x396px

>>57447314
>>57447308
you guys are trolling right?

>>57441287
I bought one in 2011 with blues, still using it.

It was my first mech. I've replaced the keycaps with some cheapo pbt set from banggood though

>>57447308
Really? They look more like your moms nipples
>flat and pearky but when you touch them its all mushy shit

>>57447335
Good analogy, my mum's nipples are pretty shit like that.

>>57447337
That must also explain why you're retarded anon.
Looks like someone wasn't fed well as a baby

>>57447318
>>57447320
>two conductive surfaces meeting/breaking isn't a form of a switch
k

>>57447539
it's all semantics, anon. what you should be arguing is the fact that there isn't actually anything wrong with rubber dome keyboards.

>>57447552
Rubber dome keyboards are trash. Topre isn't one and my preferred keyobards are the Realforce ones. I have left cherry switches.

>>57447567
rubber dome keyboards werk just like any other kind of keyboard.

>>57447567
No wonder you seem so agitated. Its okay I like topre's too since they are rubberdomes done right, but let me guess you'll start shitting on me because
i have a Type Heaven.

>>57447575
Rubber domes work like most keyboards in that the majority of keyboards use contact switches.

File: good night.png (40KB, 747x552px) Image search: [Google]

40KB, 747x552px

good night /mkg/

>>57447579
Your preferred keyboard is yours. It's subjective to a point. I still think cherry switches are great as long as they don't have costa stabilizers.

I don't get how Topre switches feel like rubber domes. Maybe people are using the cheaper ones? I haven't tried them so I don't know. I type differently compared to when I'm using a rubber dome keyboard.

>>57447601
they don't feel like rubber domes since they aren't mushy and disgusting, but they still have a rubber sheet in them

File: btfo.jpg (12KB, 191x182px) Image search: [Google]

12KB, 191x182px

>>57447139
heat shrunk with a hot knife

>>57447581
goodnite cutie

>>57440865
I don't think a piece of wood makes a good physicist m8.

>>57447241
well fuck i just ordered one of these ok bye money

>>57447567
>my preferred keyobards are the Realforce ones. I have left cherry switches.

Pics or it didn't happen.

>>57447611
I've used ordinary Fujitsu dome boards that felt nice and snappy like Topres. If you could stick those into a Type Heaven case they'd easily fool a lot of people. It comes down to the quality of the rubber domes themselves: Cheap domes feel cheap because they are cheap.
I've never been able to get into Topres myself though. The collapsing dome forces you to bottom out and they mush when they do like any dome, which I can't stand.

Are ALPS/Matias switches vulnerable to key chatter??

Does anyone want to buy my HHKB?

It's this exact model - https://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=pfu_keyboards,hhkbpro2&pid=pdkb400w

>>57449096
I'll give you $50+shipping for it.

>>57448745
If you mean physical wobbling of the keys, they are slightly wobblier than cherries. If you mean over-registering of the switch itself, it can happen. Sometimes cleaning out the switch might work, but a replacement is sometimes necessary.

>>57449104
fug

>>57448745
I believe Matias are, as both boards with Matias switches I bought ended up getting chatter after a few months.

>Australian computer stuff retailer starts stocking the new Realforce RGBs
>$350
>Even overpriced shit like a Das 4 is only $250
Why do people buy this?

File: rubber dome keyboard.jpg (3MB, 4096x3040px) Image search: [Google]

3MB, 4096x3040px

>>57449799
For the good feeling of oneness with cup rubber.

>>57449872
Am I buying a keyboard or an onahole?

Or is that saying Topre switches are onaholes for your fingers?

>>57449881
Yes.

>>57448329
clearly you've never used a topre board, or maybe you just have a really bad clone. There isn't a mushy feeling as its smooth all the way down. Also you don't need to bottom out to actuate.

>>57443056
Leopold fc980m

>>57450364
>without arrow keys

File: RSII+modelF.jpg (60KB, 690x460px) Image search: [Google]

60KB, 690x460px

>>57443056
don't listen too>>57450364
Get a RS model F instead

>>57450038
They were genuine Realforce boards, and they certainly do mush. It's not like the rubber magically disappears when you bottom out. And you will bottom out. Not because you have to for switch registration, but because the force curve on collapsing the rubber dome leaves you with no alternative.

>$50-$60
>Cherry MX Blue, Green, or red.
>Help find me a keyboard pls

>>57445278
what's this board ?

File: photo_2016-09-19_12-28-28.jpg (187KB, 1280x960px) Image search: [Google]

187KB, 1280x960px

>>57451885
TADA68

File: Pleb.jpg (129KB, 1281x452px) Image search: [Google]

129KB, 1281x452px

Trying to figure out my first mech. Want a green and black look because that's my favorite color scheme but I don't want fucking Razor shit.

This is what I've got so far. Am I plebbing out?

I havent posted here in ages, cba to take any pictures and its too dark anyway just wanted to say about the last kb I bought (plum 84 electrostatic) is really good. Feels great, sounds great, even if I'm a guy that think LEDS are pleb and I only have 1 other kb with leds even the leds look good and very chill behind the milky keycaps. Just really cute keyboard over all for anyone looking for a light switch with a very minmax layout IMO (without being autistic). also while the pbt keycaps are laser etched they havent showed any sign of fading after several months.

File: UpkSalx.jpg (2MB, 4032x3024px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 4032x3024px

>>57443897
You honestly think your shitty hhkb is the best keyboard in the world?

Hilarious

Beamspring END GAME incoming

File: P1060367.jpg (2MB, 4592x3448px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 4592x3448px

>>57452350
>You honestly think your shitty hhkb is the best keyboard in the world?
Let's answer this question by deconstructing the conversation I had with anon.

See this post
>>57443886
>threadly reminder that the best keyboard in the world uses rubber dome.

And then my post as a response to that
>>57443897
>The statement is correct, but you posted the wrong keyboard.
>Here, let me help you with that

As you can see, I corrected him by telling him that the keyboard he posted is not the best keyboard in the world.
And then I told him I'd help him with that and posted an image of my HHKB.

As you can tell from the context, I was referring to the picture I posted when I wrote
>let me help you with that
Since the only keyboard in the picture I posted is my HHKB, you can tell that I was indirectly referring to my HHKB as the best keyboard in the world.

So, to answer your question, I do indeed think that my HHKB is the best keyboard in the world.
I'm glad I could help you out of your confusion.

>>57452486
i like you. youre a cool dude.

>>57452486
Nice job on wasting your time by writing all that. You clearly don't know shit :)

File: 20161109_215255.jpg (4MB, 4032x3024px) Image search: [Google]

4MB, 4032x3024px

>>57452521
Thank you.

Though I have to admit, I do actually prefer my TADA68

>>57452531
Whatever amount of time it takes, if I can help a friend understand the complexity of contextual cues, it is not wasted time.

>>57452569
Your HHKB is still inferior to any IBM though, but a solid 9/10 for effort.

File: P1070022.jpg (3MB, 2272x1704px) Image search: [Google]

3MB, 2272x1704px

>>57452663
>Your HHKB is still inferior to any IBM though
I'm going to say no, and you will reply.

No.

>>57452794
No :)

File: DSC_9967[1].jpg (1MB, 1800x1200px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 1800x1200px

now i have everything except the actual keyset

massdrop just needs to ship that then i can figure out what i want to put it on

>>57452663
i'm conflicted but the HHKB's size on my desk means it wins right now

File: 1401792747274.jpg (55KB, 250x350px) Image search: [Google]

55KB, 250x350px

wat do?

I just bought this cheapo mech keyboard of amazon (VicTop 87) which has SwitchMaster Blues for £27, to replace my rubberdome Corsair K30.

I don't know if I like the change. I bottom out heavy since come from a rubberdome kb and the shock on the fingers and sound when typing is a little uncomfortable, although I am getting used to it.

Will O-rings solve this problem? I was thinking of getting these cheap chink 40-a ones for £2. The keycaps are thin abs, would PBT helps too?

If not should I go back to rubberdomes since I can't afford topre for now? I was thinking maybe the HHKB Lite2 which is £60.

Or should I give another switch type a try.

>>57444817
what keyset is that?

>>57453203
If the sound is bothering you can lube the switches and buy some o-rings/dental bands. If the switches are too light you can buy some heavier springs and replace them:
https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_list&c=339

>>57453410
looks like DSA granite

http://pimpmykeyboard.com/dsa-granite-keyset/

>>57453203
>HHKB Lite2
that is just another rubber dome keyboard anon. The pro uses topres

File: stryker_red2_whiteBG.png (419KB, 1000x563px) Image search: [Google]

419KB, 1000x563px

What is the biggest meme in the mechanical keyboard industry, and why is it speed switches?

>>57453574
yes

>>57452486
I love my JIS HHKB but there aren't blank legends. I am considering buying another Topre board because it's so smooth. I have to know what all of the hype around the 55g Realforce is.
>>57453574
What's the point of MX Reds now? I'd love a variable activation distance Topre so if MX Speeds inspired that I like them.

>>57454280
Then why not go for analog mechanical switches

>>57454301
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_6Qhb0_Q_I
Looks pretty cool but I enjoy oneness with rubber cup.

File: keyboard.jpg (48KB, 1044x261px) Image search: [Google]

48KB, 1044x261px

Could someone tell me the name of this thing I saw on Linus Tech Tips? Or is it some custom job? I know nothing about keyboards

>>57454751
Keycaps are some DSA set from MD. Dont remember what they're called but i know i've seen them on MD at some point

>>57454751
https://www.massdrop.com/buy/galaxy-keycaps-set

>>57440707
>http://pastebin.com/33S1gVkG
I clicked on this link using a virtual sandbox shoveler and independent "froggy" cyberserum care package. As expected, this is a bad virus, probably the worst I've seen since my work as a freelance nexus merc working on blackhat ops out of Tottori.

I just had to reformat my harddrive, reset the diplomatic algorithm on my CPU, defragment my secondary echo transverser, repopulate my standard paramorph contractor with null terrahertz slipstarts. and reconfigure my wireless modem transponder setup with a Bayesian inference telemetry packager.

Needless to say, do NOT click on this link! You've been warned.

>>57454859
this is some top quality pasta

>>57454859
is this a new pasta

>>57454871
Yes.

>>57454870
It can be.

>>57454870
>>57454871
>>57454876
I'd just like to interject for moment. What you're refering to as pasta, is in fact, copy/pasta, or as I've recently taken to calling it, copy plus pasta. pasta is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning copy system made useful by the copy corelibs, shell utilities and vital system components comprising a full OS as defined by POSIX.

Many computer users run a modified version of the copy system every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of copy which is widely used today is often called pasta, and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the copy system, developed by the copy Project.

There really is a pasta, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. pasta is the kernel: the program in the system that allocates the machine's resources to the other programs that you run. The kernel is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete operating system. pasta is normally used in combination with the copy operating system: the whole system is basically copy with pasta added, or copy/pasta. All the so-called pasta distributions are really distributions of copy/pasta!

whats the cheapest ansi tenkeyless keyboard? idc if its not mechanical

File: Pleb2.png (63KB, 1272x444px) Image search: [Google]

63KB, 1272x444px

>>57451903

Pls help me

>>57454957
just get it all black man..

>>57454983

Where's the fun in that?

>>57454751
>>57454853

Thanks. Would be cool to have if it weren't for the Star Trek themed text on them, bummer

>>57455011
You could try your luck and put up a WTB ad for a blank set.

>>57455011
>Would be cool if the Star Trek themed set were not Star Trek themed

>>57451494
find a keyboard with gaterons; you won't find a cherry board for that price unless you get a rosewill on sale or something

>>57455039
The color scheme can be cool independently of the rest of the design or where it's from, friend

File: midnight__66688.1441467434.1280.1280.jpg (247KB, 1280x640px) Image search: [Google]

247KB, 1280x640px

>>57454957
Looks too razery for me. You should consider DCS midnight, but it's probably not the color your looking for.

>>57455088
The color scheme is clearly LCARS. What else would you expect?
And I'm not your friend, buddy.

>>57455160
Sorry, I don't watch Star Wars, amigo.

>>57455150
>Looks too razery for me

Yeah that's kinda the problem I have. My favorite color has been co-opted by a faggot gaymer brand. Despite that I am pretty set on the color, just want to avoid the Razer look as best as I can.

>>57453064
>missed out on carbon
>none of the recent GMK groupbuys have ergodox addons
Suffering. At least it seems like the yuri GMK set will have an ergodox addon eventually.

15$ Chink keysets from aliexpress just came in. Plastic feels nice and the print seems better than the default keycaps of my victsing/tomoko.

File: 20161110_103217.jpg (2MB, 5312x2988px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 5312x2988px

>>57457404
Forgot pic.

File: wooting-one-800x420.jpg (45KB, 800x420px) Image search: [Google]

45KB, 800x420px

Just preordered this.
Is this a meme? Am I gonna regret it?

Yo are unicomp ever making an ssk?

>>57457509
Looking at the kickstarter page it sounds like a $200 solution to a problem already solved by a $30 wired Xbox controller or a $180 Razer mechanical keypad with thumbstick.

whats the easiest to clean cherry mx red keyboard?

>>57457558
I got it mostly for the placebo .03ms debouncing.
Also I hate Gateron fags and am hoping to one-up them, since optical switch sounds like it should be smoother.

>>57457637
Corsair keyboards, or any other keyboards with similar design.

Someone noticed my style of only using my index fingers to type (i still get 100-120wpm so whatever) and pointed out that i'm gonna get arthritis by the time im 30 if i don't do something. I was thinking maybe instead I could swap from rubber dome to light actuation mechanical with O-rings to cushion my fingers and reduce strain instead. What would be the switch of choice here?

>>57457663
First of all getting arthritis is bullshit, but if you insist,

Topre if you have the money, MX reds with o-rings if not.

Get the o-rings in 40A soft rubber.

Also, I've never tried them before, but it would make sense if those thick 2.5mm o-rings should provide more cushioning than the standard 1.5mm ones.

>>57457663
Gateron Clears have the lightest actuation force of all Cherry-style switches at 35g.

Topre boards can get rubber domes with 35g actuation force too but they'll cost you an arm and a leg.

>>57457710
you don't think there's any risk of wearing my fingers out by only using 2 to do so much typing? I figure i'm putting them through 3-4 years worth of wear and tear for every year i use them compared to most people that type a similar amount.

>>57457725
Just don't bend your fingers/wrists in any weird way and you should be fine.

By your logic, every data entry worker, programmer, or anyone else who types for a living should have arthritis by now.

>>57457743
if i do this for 40 years, that's effectively over a hundred years worth of index finger presses compared to most people, but you're probably right and i'm just turning nothing into a big deal.

I've tried a lot of demo models in stores with MX blues, browns, reds, blacks, those weird Razer switches that are just mushier browns, a couple more obscure things that I couldn't immediately identify, and I don't like any of them nearly as much as I like my Model M.

I want a Model M with quieter, less stiff springs. Maybe 55-65g actuation instead of 80g.

File: 20161110_130822.jpg (2MB, 5312x2988px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 5312x2988px

Done

File: slider-1983-1.jpg (1MB, 2048x1152px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 2048x1152px

>>57458209
Awful colour scheme tbqh. Only acceptable schemes are alphas one colour and modifiers another or wave schemes like 1976 and 1983.

>>57458298
Yes I'll probably add more grey caps, probably numbers. But this caps are much harder to pull out and I need my extractor but it's at home.

>>57457724
Isn't that 35g rating for the bottom out force?

File: 34_4b4e4eb638f2b87a8e76acd08c09141f_1450827566.jpg (119KB, 800x468px) Image search: [Google]

119KB, 800x468px

I use the quickfire tk with mx browns and love it but I can't seem to find any keycaps for it.

Am I retarded or am I forever stuck with stock keycaps?

>Budget
$150 AUD
>Location (continent at least)
Australia
>Preferred switch type
Cherry MX Blue
>Layout
ANSI
>Form factor
TKL
>Backlight
No
>Previous/current keyboards
Logitech G15

>>57458615
Despite the lack of a .au at the end, yes this is an Aussie vendor with AUD prices.
https://mechkb.com/products/mechanical-keyboards/kb-paradise-v80-tenkeyless-dual-led-mechanical-keyboard
https://mechkb.com/products/mechanical-keyboards/cooler-master-quickfire-rapid-i-tenkeyless-mechanical-keyboard

>>57458641
thank you friend

File: Ajazz-Geek-AK33-Backlignt-Edition-Mechanical-Keyboard-Blue-Switch-Gaming-Keyboards-for-Tablet-Desktop-Hot-Original.jpg (75KB, 800x800px) Image search: [Google]

75KB, 800x800px

What's your opinon on Ajazz Geek AK33?

Found one on Aliexpress for 40$

>>57458881
really shit layout.
you wont find aftermarket caps for it

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01E57PUNA/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_4?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A3DP4U0YSMI802

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01872MCIA/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_8?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A3DP4U0YSMI802

Are these keyboards worth it at all? I am used to full sized keyboards, so I don't know how easy of a transition it would be for me. I would also miss my numpad.

I wish I could get a G610 but it's 100!

File: IMG_20161110_104408.jpg (2MB, 3264x2448px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 3264x2448px

>>57440707
Cooler Master master keys pro L is hands down the best cherry mx mech for your money right now anyone feel free to prove me wrong it is absolutely perfect
Disregard my disgusting mousepad

>>57451494
https://slickdeals.net/f/9244027-rosewill-apollo-mechanical-keyboard-w-cherry-mx-brown-switches-for-29-99-ar-or-rosewill-mechanical-keyboard-w-cherry-mx-black-switches-for-24-99-ar-free-shipping-newegg-com?src=SiteSearchV2_SearchBarV2Algo1

>>57460229
Are the keycaps doubleshot?

Ducky makes RGB mechs for pretty much the same price with doubleshot keycaps.

>>57460495
I couldn't find it on their site, but I pulled a key and it looks like two layers?

>>57460593
They're laser-etched.

https://www.keychatter.com/2016/03/14/review-cooler-master-masterkeys-pro-l-s/#unboxing

>>57460612
yeah nevermind i just found it too lol. Mine will eventually be switched to pbt keycaps so i'm not overly concerned about it.

How do O-rings do with blues ?

Is it worth ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXxDb_F1tCY is he our guy?

>>57455206
If you want to avoid the look, then just go with as little structure as possible with which keys you color. Randomly select which keys are green and which are black.

>>57457949
Why not get capacitive buckling springs which are quieter and lighter. Currently only modelfkeyboards.com sells them on their new production kishsaver

>>57458531
GMK sells some keycaps that will fit, but you might have to get some addons. Check out the currently running GB on geekhack and massdrop.

>>57459717
Why not wait until black friday / cyber monday?

Any one has comments or thoughts on Gateron Red Switches? poorfag here, its 25 bucks for a full keyboard, or I could get a Dell AT101W.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Keyboards-Mice-Input-Devices/Ducky-Channel-Black-Cherry-Switch-Mechanical-Keyboard/B01HA9YCZC

why is this so cheap? A key on my current keyboard has stopped working and I'd rather be 'azy and rep'ace the entire thing. Current'y using a tk' corsair keyboard

>Budget
I'd prefer to not spend over $120

>Location (continent at least)
Trumpland

>Preferred switch type
I've only tried Cherry Reds and Browns in person and preferred Red, it'll mostly be used for gaming. Blues sound nice too.

>Layout
ANSI since I'll want to get keycaps to replace my REAG keys

>Form factor
100%, and with media controls if possible. Haven't really seen many mechanical keyboards with dedicated media controls but I can live with having to press FN or something

>Backlight
Don't mind one way or the other

>Previous/current keyboards
Just some membranes so nothing noteworthy

>>57454280
>I have to know what all of the hype around the 55g Realforce is
Can't game with it. I have RF 30g, 45g Type-S and the 55g RF. Probably nothing but fatigue coming from 45g. Depends on the person I guess.

>>57461375
Is it gonna be on sale?

https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_list&c=359

Anyone use this keyboard before? I've never owned a mechanical keyboard and Iwas looking into a fullsize Brown switch board to break into the scene. For $60, this looks like a solid way to get in on the cheap.

>Budget
Under 100$
>Location (continent at least)
US
>Preferred switch type
Cherry MX Brown
>Layout
ANSI
>Form factor
TKL
>Backlight
RGB preferably , but not a deal breaker.

Can I get keycaps for my daskeyboard?

I just bought a new G710+ after my three year old one broke a switch.

Generally speaking is it advisable to buy a keyboard from Aliexpress?

I know it's all chink shit and a lot of it is gaymer shit but I'm a Canadian in need of a cheap clicky 104-key mech and the Motospeed CK104 might be my best option.

Can the board quality make a difference in switch feel? My quickfire tk's brown switches feel terrible and I just got a switch tester and the browns on that feel a lot better.

>>57464250
If the board is complete shit and flexes badly yes. That's not to mean you need a stainless steel board, however.

sup mkg, kinda new here, I have a friend currently in Japan willing to go shopping for me, so far I asked him to get me an hhkb pro2, what else should should I ask for?

>>57464422
he's in kyoto if that important whatsoever

>>57464250
>>57464260
As a followup, I'm looking into getting a Leopold FC660M, do you think the browns will feel better on that? The feedback on this quickfire keyboard just feels way too harsh.

>>57457555
Unicomp will never make anything smaller than full size. They'd have to invest in tooling first, and they won't do that without overwhelming demand.

>>57464717
Meanwhile some nobody is making a new production run of model f's.

>>57463179
>Under 100$
>Cherry MX Brown
That's gonna be hard to find, dude. Are you sure you won't accept one of the clone brands? Gateron is widely regarded as making superior switches.

>>57464742
Right, because that guy was excited to take a risk.

The people at Unicomp are not risk takers. Literally the whole point of the company is upholding a tradition. They're conservative in the classic sense of the word. If they hadn't been able to get the existing equipment for dirt cheap, they never would have gone into business at all.

File: kb.jpg (59KB, 1280x720px) Image search: [Google]

59KB, 1280x720px

So after using this board for a few weeks, I've decided it's not my endgame, and my journey continues to other boards.
Anyway, anyone here interested in buying a B.face X2 with 67g zealios?

>>57464888
what didn't you like about it?

File: 2016-11-10_17-40-36.png (289KB, 1767x562px) Image search: [Google]

289KB, 1767x562px

Should I pull the trigger? Or is there a place to find these cheaper?

File: ZEALIOS.jpg (195KB, 1553x1035px) Image search: [Google]

195KB, 1553x1035px

>>57464911
Something about it being relatively lightweight and the case being acrylic plastic. Made me miss the steel plate mount and alu case from my pok3r that felt like it'd last me a decade or three. Also, realizing that while I like the customizable underglow, I'd actually prefer backlit keys instead. This thing came with a set of LEDs actually, but I don't have the equipment/space/effort to solder them in.
Switches are pure sex though, and would love to have them in my next board if I could. Maybe even heavier ones, since my piano fingers don't seem to mind.

>>57464969
You can find that board for cheaper elsewhere. This is a good site:
https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=1495

>>57464981
>Out of Stock
and it has been for weeks I checked that frequently.

File: 20161102_181201.jpg (3MB, 4128x2322px) Image search: [Google]

3MB, 4128x2322px

GANSS reporting in

>>57464992
>weeks
Some people spend 20 years hunting down their endgame keyboards.

File: lites.jpg (314KB, 1717x1145px) Image search: [Google]

314KB, 1717x1145px

>>57464992
Ah whoops, didn't notice that.
Hmm, then ebay's a fine option, sure. I've ordered keysets from widebasket before. They're reliable.

>>57465002
I'm not going to wait a whole year to save less than $30

File: chrome_2016-11-11_01-48-35.png (39KB, 733x284px) Image search: [Google]

39KB, 733x284px

>>57465025
Yeah just checked that I did order from widebasket before.
Keyset arrived like a week ahead of schedule, that was nice.

>>57463179
Logitech G610

hey /g/,

Ducky One backlit or non-nacklit?

pro: often being in low light
contra: durability?

>>57465308
just learn how to touch type instead. i shouldnt take that long

>>57465332
photoshop, c4d and solidworks, I'll ALWAYS have to look at the kb

>>57465308
I used to not like backlit keyboards. I prefer them them now. Touch typing is really only good for typing. Over the past 10 years I've pretty much been 1 handed typing mostly and it's tough for me to go back to traditional typing.

Are their any backlit PBT keys that don't look/feel like shit?

>>57465417
>feel like shit
senpai what mean?

>>57464756
I like the feel of Browns. Never tried Gaterons.
I could go up to 120$ if under 100$ aint feasible.

>>57465542
The backlit ones I've seen have weird textures or are very thin and have light bleeding through them.

>>57465556
gaterons are more tactile and much smoother
also more wobbly though

>>57447109
yes.

thats a plum 84, it uses a non standrad layout with Chinese 35g topre clones that have cherry MX stems.

>>57465556
Gateron browns are similar to Cherry browns (because, you know, they're clones) but less expensive. Hence the suggestion.

>>57441678
>browns
sorry but no senpai

File: #.jpg (227KB, 1200x808px) Image search: [Google]

227KB, 1200x808px

Just bought this ducky one in all white with PBT caps, how did I do?

>>57466231
Not a fan of the aesthetic but Its better than all the other faggots that use old as fuck keyboards because "it still works great!" or because they cant let go of their nostalgia

>>57466231

Does it come in black?

>Budget
$40-$60
>Location
U.S of Trump
>Preferred switch type
Cherry MX Red clones (Mostly Gaterons), or Alps Switches
>Layout
ANSI or US ISO, don't care
>Form Factor
60-100%
>Backlight
doesn't really need backlight, but if good price, I'll take it

>>57466262
It doesn't come in all black, but I'm starting to regret not getting this colorway

https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=1685

>>57466304

That just might be my ideal keyboard.

File: dont_judge_me_g.png (82KB, 525x813px) Image search: [Google]

82KB, 525x813px

>>57440707
what have I done

>>57466347
The one in white or in black?

>>57466367

Black.

>>57466385
fuck

>>57466390

The white looks good, I just like the contrast of the black.

>>57466366
did i fuck up here

>>57466262
>>57466304
It does

past bump limit, new thread when?

File: 20161010_104439.jpg (4MB, 4781x2690px) Image search: [Google]

4MB, 4781x2690px

>>57445789
I have that keyboard, recently upgraded to a corsair k70rgb (browns). The keyboard was definitely a step up from my old scissor switch razer keyboard

File: 1452563817253181.jpg (104KB, 700x469px) Image search: [Google]

104KB, 700x469px

Looking at this thing.

A little gamer-y for my tastes but it's not some massive abomination of weird angled plastic and excessive macros.

Most importantly it has blue switch (Outemu) and it's within budget, much more than any alternative.

Should I pull the trigger or wait for Black Friday?

File: 20161111_093850.jpg (1MB, 2974x2973px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 2974x2973px

>>57458209
>>57457417
Finished both. Now waiting for the miniusb connectors to make the cable detachable.

Hey, I'm looking for the dirt cheapest blue or black (heavy blues without loud click) keyboard.

I don't care if it's a ripoff, as long as it's not total garbage.

>Read the byers template
>Read the "Where to buy" thing
>Still know nothing...

Pls help.

>>57469081
If you want "heavy blues without loud click", I think you're looking for something like Cherry clears or tactile greys. Blacks are linear, blues are tactile.

>>57469146
oh yes, I actually meant the grey ones.
Sorry, my fault.

>>57468294
I am considering this exact keyboard as well.
btw this is the link
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Metal-104-Keys-RGB-Blue-Switch-Gaming-Wired-Mechanical-Keyboard-LED-Colorful-Backlit-with-Tactile-Anti/32586795021.html

Worth?

File: cmmpl-rgb.png (376KB, 748x379px) Image search: [Google]

376KB, 748x379px

>>57468294
>>57469741
you get what you pay for. expect dem first LEDs to malfunction soon.

mechanical RGB LED for under 60$? maybe for your 14yo son for his LAN sessions with snacks all over the palce.

if you want something satisfiing and solid, look upwards.

I have seen the "Cooler Master Masterkeys Pro L" for under 115$ a few days ago. This is not top quality I know, but should be far better than this and seems to be what you want. And then you spend only 65 bucks more and may be happy much longer.