So is DC Comics afraid to portray Batman in a negative light

>>92385474
I'm pretty sure the most fucked up Earth in Countdown was one where Batman went nuts.

Because you expect Batman to go rogue, Superman WAS more unexpected before they ran it into the ground.

Because evil Batman is just a less interesting Lex Luthor. There is no story you can tell with him that wouldn't be better as a Lex story.

>>92385575
What about Evil Batman v Lex?

>>92385560
>Superman WAS more unexpected before they ran it into the ground.

Well that's the thing. It's SO run into the ground at this point. I wouldn't be surprised if in the Justice League movie they fight a temporarily evil Superman.

>>92385500
No it wasn't. And in a way, that was still Batwank, since it was portrayed as pretty much a paradise, with the only real price being paid being Bruce's innocence.
>>92385560
>Superman WAS more unexpected before they ran it into the ground.
They really did. I'm so sick and tired of evil Superman by this point. I hate how some people want the DCEU to go full Injustice but that idea is so fucking terrible.

>>92385605
Lex would definitely win

>>92385500
It wasn't the most fucked up one, but it was the weakest one since the heroes had nothing to do so they all got complacent and fat.

>>92385474
Imagine a Rocky movie where Rocky doesn't need a training montage because he's stronger fthan Ivan Drago and squashes him easy at the end...except Rocky's still the guy the movie follows and Drago's not.

That is what you're asking for. An underdog antagonist.

It doesn't fucking work, it goes against the core structure of how stories are written. Batman's entire character is about him starting out as the weak one and overcoming the odds through human resourcefulness. That's a main character plotline, it's not the plotline of the guy the main character beats.

>>92385627
>with the only real price being paid being Bruce's innocence
That and the fact that Earth was ripe for an attack by outside forces, which is what ended up happening. Superman Prime and Monarch decimated every hero there because they were so out of practice.

>>92385474
Batman is already enough of an asshole in main continuity.

>>92385681
If Batman's the underdog why does he keep winning? Checkmate, Batfags.

>>92385681
Every Batman story stars an underdog protagonist. Some untrained idiot like the Joker is no match for Bruce. What are you even talking about?

File: fatanna.jpg (40KB, 502x497px) Image search: [Google]

40KB, 502x497px

>>92385650
Including good ol' Fatanna here. You know this bitch be like:

>Gnirb em lla fo eht stunod!

>>92385691
Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Well, it WAS Countdown and everything.

File: wrong.jpg (38KB, 250x250px) Image search: [Google]

38KB, 250x250px

>>92385474
>but never Batman?

>>92385735
>Some untrained idiot like the Joker is no match for Bruce.

Joker and Riddler type stories are about Bruce's brains being tested instead of his brawn, he's the underdog in those in that he starts out not knowing or understanding their way of thinking and what their plans are, and then he gradually figures it out. Detective work is the training montage.

>>92385681
So every Superman comic is bad? Got it.

>>92385474
If Batman's evil, then Superman/WW/anyone with powers would fuck him up. It would be a fucking boring story.
Like someone else mentioned, what makes the idea of Batman winning attractive is that he's the underdog, he's the one that's supposed to lose so it's more fun to see how the writer makes him win.
An underdog villain is just not a very good premise for a story, because nobody wants to see him win anyway.

>>92385474
Batman's entire character arc is being incorruptible, doing the right thing no matter what anyone thinks of him. I think The Dark Knight movie provides great insight into his character.

>>92385729
Underdogs ARE supposed to win. The point of the underdog is a feel-good story about force of will overcoming a challenge.

It's the whole reason the 2nd act exists in the classic Three Act Structure. The whole reason you create a bad situation for the hero is then you get to watch them rise to the challenge.

>>92385785
Superman's villains all being weaker than him is a meme, casual.

>>92385865
So every Superman comic where his villain is weaker than him is bad? Got it.

:^)

>>92385735

Batman is the superior to the vast majority of his rogues in terms of strength, intelligence and resources. He's not an underdog at all unless he's facing Ra's

>>92385998
Sorry I meant antagonist like the post I was replying to.

We do agree though.

The thing is, if he ends up being the corrupted one, it's STILL gonna Batwank because he'll have to be able to hold off a bunch of heroes (at least Superman, if WW ends up being Bats' cock holster with some other heroes).

Even in ASBAR, everybody hates his guts, he's a terrible person, and Miller takes some cheap shots at the character, but since he's the most popular hero and it's HIS book, he still gets to call the shots. Every elseworld or book with him in it will be like that.

Batman and co alone sold more books through bookscan in 2015 and 2016 than the other smaller publishers, usually making up 500k+ units. Batman and co make up some of the more popular Halloween and cosplay outfits, even above the likes of Spider man.
We just have to get used to Batman being the most popular DC hero.

>>92385785

Actually look at Supermans villians. Even low tier scrubs like Parasite and Metallo are tailor made to fuck him up

>>92385843
But it's gotten to the point where everyone but Batman is the underdog

>>92385474
Closest I've ever read to an evil Batman was the elseworld where he became a vampire. By the end of that he was full on evil and offered Gordon the chance to reave the Earth clean of humanity just to quench his thirst.

File: 3619194-2840123096-HtvEp.jpg (618KB, 1280x1015px) Image search: [Google]

618KB, 1280x1015px

>>92385843
But if he wins all the time how is he an underdog? An underdog needs to get kicked down every now and again.

Batman in the 80's got his ass handed to him all the time. Batman nowadays wins every fucking fight he enters, like pic related would never happen nowadays. It's absurd yet perfect for a villain.

Imagine Millar's Nemesis (but probably less retarded) versus the DCU.

>>92385474
Originally it was because of the shock factor of DC's biggest and best hero going evil. Now it's because Batman is the biggest seller so they aren't going to do anything to smear him for the retards who say dumb shit about how they love Bruce for being a normal human who's always right.
>>92385785
...What? Supes doesn't fight normal humans. Lex doesn't count with all the bullshit he pulls with his 12th level intellect.

>>92386265
The Toyman.

>>92386531
NORMAL humans, he's a talking, animated ventriloquist puppet.

>>92385630
Hahhaaha, no.

File: Toyman.jpg (244KB, 400x600px) Image search: [Google]

244KB, 400x600px

>>92386641
>he's a talking, animated ventriloquist puppet
wut
Do you even comics bro?

>>92385617
I unironically want to see Omega Superman on a movie screen
I will forgive Snyder for everything he has done if he would give me Omega Superman

>>92386641
The fuck?

>>92386789
Only this past year, really. I tried getting into DC a while ago but then after I finished LEGION I found out flashpoint happened, said fuck DC for a decade and now I'm trying to catch up again.
I was going off the JLU toyman, didn't know he was so different.

heh I'm working on a short fan comic with the evil batman premise :) why does this thread have to come up all of a sudden before I put it on /hyw/ just check into the threads sometime so y'all can see, and you can tell me if it's edgy.

>>92386849
Maybe he only saw the Superman animated series one.

>>92385474
>tfw no comic where Batman turns out to be the true evil mastermind all along

>>92386907
way to completely ignore me saying just that >>92386861

>>92386907
But that was still a human, was he not?

>>92386083
DC in the 80's was actually generally written very well.
You're comparing a well-crafted piece of jewelry 30 years old to a piece of fresh dogshit dropped 10 minutes ago; one will always be a consistently better example then the other, for the rest of history.

>>92386083
The whole "underdog" thing is about the story's internal logic, not what character is popular or not. In a story where there are superpowered beings, a non-superpowered one will always be the underdog.

>>92386083
>Batman nowadays wins every fucking fight he enters, like pic related would never happen nowadays
You gotta thank Morrison for that. Before his run, even though Batman was the most popular character, he was still mostly grounded (as grounded as a superhero can be, of course).
The Moench/Dixon/Grant years had him constantly fucking up before eventually getting things right.
It was Morrison and his Jesus bullshit that turned him into the OTT thing he's nowadays, and he did the same for the Joker, who was mostly an opportunistic asshole before the whole "super sanity" bullshit.

>>92387149
Ironically Morrison did that just so Batman's presence would actually makes sense on the JLA, but it ruined Batman's presence OFF the JLA.

File: funny human.jpg (180KB, 400x273px) Image search: [Google]

180KB, 400x273px

>>92385749
Fuck, you got me.

>>92387097
Unfortunately most Batman stories that show him fighting superheros made these days rarely if ever show him struggling particularly hard to do it.
He usually just pulls some mystical bullshit plan out of his ass that he had all along and instantly wins; there's no underdog-ness in most stories at all.

Then again we can't expect modern comics authors to ever tell good stories or understand proper story structure, can we?
Holding them to the status of actually good writers is perhaps a bit unfair.

>>92385474
>Why is it, then whenever we get an Elseworld story about superheroes going rogue, it's usually Superman and Wonder Woman, but never Batman?

...he's already a villain, OP. He's a billionaire control freak who dresses in a gimp suit to beat up the poor, the mentally disturbed, and the disfigured.

He's already the villain. If he were a fat 70 year old with a shitty wig driving up and down 5th avenue on a golf cart with the Russian ambassador shooting cops, it'd be too on the nose and the kind of chumps that have traditionally supported his titles, which have often supported the rest of the company, would abandon DC and then they'd go bust.

So they keep it subtle.

>>92387332
t. Ennis

>>92387291
You're giving them too much credit even then.
Nearly all of his modern plans inevitably involve punching someone, using some kind of thing that magically makes them more punchable to him.
It's not even older Batman where his contingencies seemed intelligent because they specifically AVOIDED a physical confrontation on his part because that player into the strengths of superhuman foes he can't beat in a straight fight.

>>92387332
>gimp suit
You fetish shaming Batman?

>>92387226
You mean all those years in charge of different Batman titles were just so he would make sense in the JLA?
I'd say it's Morrison being a writer with a lot of shitty ideas and editorial immunity.

>>92387391
>Nearly all of his modern plans inevitably involve punching someone, using some kind of thing that magically makes them more punchable to him.
This honestly. Bruce's "preptime" is just him going
>I was only pretending to be retarded! Behold my McGuffin!
And then he wins because it's Batman so no one has to actually try to create an intelligent plan.

>>92387226
>Moench
Way underrated writer, by the way.

>>92387097
But even within the story's internal logic Batman is not an underdog.
In fact the whole "Batman is vulnerable because he doesn't have superpowers" has always been bullshit considering that his ability to always pull life saving gadgets out of his ass is practically a superpower

I was reading Ditko ASM last night, and Spidey actually does some BNE & investigating and gathering clues.
Does Batman do any of that?

>>92387711
He used to, nowadays writers fall back on the ol' Batman '66 method. Batman puts some shit into his computer and it tells him who did shit.

>>92387711
Maybe he did at some point but nowadays no.
For a character who's supposedly "The World's Greatest Detective" he really does jack shit of actually being a detective.
Most of the time his deduction skills boil down to "happens to stumble on a lucky clue" or "owns gadgets that solve everything for him".

>>92387065
he was a force of nature.

File: nkt.jpg (126KB, 627x850px) Image search: [Google]

126KB, 627x850px

>>92385474
The thing about Batman, to me, is that why do people like him so much? What makes him so appealing rather than Superman?

Well, I think the truth is rather sad and unfortunate. People, I think, like Batman on a subconscious level because he operates almost exactly like a villain would. In fact, if he WERE a villain, he'd probably operate much in the same way he does now, but would, you know, kill instead. He'd still have a secret lair, he'd still have sidekicks (henchmen), and he'd have it all be secret as he hides behind the mask of poor orphaned Bruce Wayne, Prince of Gotham. Hell, if we consider his ability to raise an army from The Dark Knight Returns (where he creates the Sons of Batman from the Mutants), then he wouldn't even NEED to do everything on his own...but he would. He'd raise hell. In fact, he'd probably be a better villain than hero, because he'd be actively trying to dismantle the system rather than preserve it as well as others in danger. Think about it: Batman exploring Gotham City Police Department one night. Who's gonna stop him? Commissioner Gordon? He could tear Gotham apart, and it's rather terrifying.

And when you think about how much he could easily fuck up the city he protects, you start to see why he's a formidable foe in general. He is DANGEROUS. He's unpredictable if he has no restrictions other than his training. He could get away with just about anything. He has the skills, he has the money, and he has the mind, body, training, skills, education...it's all right at his fucking fingertips.

But who'd stop him? Who'd let him get away with this?

Well, one person: Alfred. The only fucking problem is that GOD DAMN ALFRED is too fucking based to let that shit happen. He'd turn Bruce in. He'd do the right thing. But...if Batman had an EVIL Alfred? You best run the fuck away. But really, all he'd need is a loyal companion like Alfred, but evil. Someone like Mercy for Lex Luthor.

In conclusion, no evil Alfred = no evil Bats

>>92385474
>he hasn't read World's Finest: Superman vs. Batman
Where do you think the panel of Batman slapping Robin is from?

Plus, all canon portrayals of Batman are negative now. They hate the guy and think that "flaws" make someone a good character. Muh mental disorders muh can't control benis :DDDD

I hate it.

File: LordBatman.png (90KB, 333x250px) Image search: [Google]

90KB, 333x250px

We need more Justice Lords Batman.

>The problem with democracy is, it doesn't keep you very safe.

It has other virtues though, you seem to have forgotten them.

>I didn't forget, I just chose peace and security instead.

YOU GRABBED POWER!

>And with that power, no 8 year old boy will ever lose his parents, because of some punk with a gun.

I love that our Batman gave up because of that line.

>>92387444
He's probably talking about Morrison's JLA run, which is where that take on Batman started. He just carried it over to the solo titles when he got there.

>>92387980
Even there he still was the first Justice Lord to turn against the others though.

>>92385681
Lol Ba Man stopped being an underdog a long time ago

>>92387711
There was a bit in King's run where he pulled out Matches Malone to get some info on Gotham & Gotham Girl.
Ironically, adaptations like the Arkham games & The Telltale Series probably feature more detective work.

>>92387684
Say what you will about Hush, but it was rather refreshing to see Batman receive a life-threatening injury from something as simple as a fall.

>>92388060
Yeah, I know. My point was that it was way more than just that, beacuse it lasted for years and several different titles, and instead of fixing shit up Morrison only made it worse and worse.

File: Owlman_Co2E_004.png (150KB, 640x360px) Image search: [Google]

150KB, 640x360px

best version of an evil batman

>>92385474

>So is DC Comics afraid to portray Batman in a negative light or something?

He was portrayed in a very negative light in the story your image is related to.

I think Batman has become cancer to DC. Probably one of the reason why DC is losing the battle to Marvel on the big screen.

>>92387920
People like Batman because he has a catchy name, cool suit, cool gadgets, cool villains and it's easier to identify with and admire because of his lack of superpowers. It's as simple as that.

>>92388257
Batman is what's keeping DC alfoat, both in comics and in the movies.

>>92388257
>>>>>>>>/tv/
Comics thread, anon

>>92388319
That's pretty much my point. He is the only thing because DC doesn't have faith in other character. Look at what they did to Superman.

File: the_shadow_2.gif (31KB, 300x321px) Image search: [Google]

31KB, 300x321px

>>92387920
>is that why do people like him so much?
That's one of the main reasons why. Batman's relation to villanous characters like Dracula or the Phantom of the Opera makes people inevitably more fascinated with him than a more clear cut hero like Superman. People are fascinated with dark characters and Batman capitalizes on that.

In fact, the character that Batman ripped his entire shtick from, The Shadow, was described by his creator as a "benign Dracula". He had most of the things Batman had (secret identities, money, secret lair, gadgets), as well as other things like an army of agents across the world, multiple secret identities which were a mystery even to the reader and psychic superpowers. And he didn't have Batman's No-Kill rule, he was dropping criminals like flies and brutally too (there's one pulp where he forces a man at gunpoint to drink poison, and a radio episode where he tricks a man into blowing his brains out). And even then, there were characters who were even more brutal, like The Spider.

Batman is essentially a toned down version of the pulp vigilantes that preceded him (which helped to make him more commercially appealing).

>>92388488
You mean helped him survive through the CCA years.

File: The Shadow knows!.jpg (66KB, 1280x700px) Image search: [Google]

66KB, 1280x700px

>>92388488
The Shadow knows! How different was movie Shadow from the other versions?

>>92388791
Ironically wasn't Batman on the verge of cancellation which is why they created Robin? It's only recently that Batman has usurped Superman as DC's premier hero.

>>92385474
Honestly I don't think that his origin really works with evil.
Also there was that time he became a vampire I guess?

>>92389667
Sure it does. Just, instead of turning on the criminal element that killed his parents, he turns on the police force that failed to protect them.

>>92389730
The police force that would needed a fortune teller to stop that event?
It was a mugging, not a hostage situation in a bank.

>>92388473
Look at what happened every time DC tried to push Superman to the front again?
It's not that DC doesn't have any faith on the character, it's that most people like Batman better.
Same happens with Marvel and Spider-Man. Not even the MCU managed to steal his place as the top character, and that has nothing to do with Marvel's lack of faith in other characters.

>>92385474
Well, he was rogue in BvS.

>>92389860
Have they actually? Doesn't fucking look like they actually tried.

File: shadow vs voodoo master.jpg (841KB, 1280x1900px) Image search: [Google]

841KB, 1280x1900px

>>92389194
Not much. The movie Shadow took traits from the pulps and the radio show and just combined them together.
He has more in common with the radio version, hence why Margo Lane, the Lamont Cranston identity, and the psychic abilities were so prominent, but there are elements from the pulps like Roy Tam, Shiwan Khan and the Tibet stuff. In fact most of the plot from the movie is lifted from The Golden Master pulp (which is the one that introduced Shiwan Khan into the Shadow mythos).
The sequel was supposedly going to incorporate The Voodoo Master but unfortunately the movie tanked so it never happened.

>>92390003
Yes, they've made movies, animated shows, TV shows and even tried putting people like Morrison and the best selling team of Scott Snyder and Jim Lee in front of his comics and none of it worked.

>>92389860
>Look at what happened every time DC tried to push Superman to the front again?
Which was? No doubt people prefer Batman now, but I think that has a lot to do with the fact that Batman is the only one getting cartoons, video games, or animated movies these days.

>>92390116
>e best selling team of Scott Snyder and Jim Lee in front of his comics and none of it worked.
Are you sure about that? I'm pretty sure Snyder's Superman was in the Top Ten. Also his Doomsday animated movie is still the most profitable animated movie I think. Really though they should give him a cartoon series. They won't give anyone besides Batman a cartoon series these days.

>>92390237
Yes, but when they left, Superman still sold like shit because people don't care about Superman. When Snyder left Batman, Batman still topped the lists because people care about the character.
It's as simple as that.

>>92390422
>When Snyder left Batman, Batman still topped the lists because people care about the character.
You mean right before the relaunch?
>It's as simple as that.
Under King the book fell under 100k. Before the New 52 reboot Batman sold 40k and GL was at the top of the list. Look where those two are now. You need to get your head checked, do you think the Flash's newfound popularity came out of fucking nowhere?

>>92390618
Sure, man. It's all a conspiracy from DC because they only want Batman to work for whatever reason.
Whatever helps you sleep at night.

>>92390047
I'm pretty mad it didn't get a sequel because it feels like "what if Nolan's Batman were good." Not to mention all the unmade video games! It would have been so cool! Not sure if a sequel would have been as good though.

>>92390989
The Shadow is not a good film, the pacing is jumpy, the action sparse, and none of the characters are really developed.

>>92390989
The Shadow movie is not terrible, it certainly deserved better, but it's not really a great movie either. And certainly not what the character needed for a revival.
I seriously wish it hadn't come out at the same week as Lion King and it was directed by Sam Raimi.
Honestly if you want a Shadow film that does justice to the character you should watch Darkman.

>>92391311
>>92391533
You gotta be kidding me. It was a 9/10 movie definitely. There were a few questionable decisions and definitely needed one or two more action sequences in the middle, but overall it was great. I loved that final fight and the ending scene in the asylum. There were some really good moments and the visuals were top-notch.

>>92385474
Why are you insisting in this shit? It's OK you hate batman but stop talking about him.

For. Fucks sake red rain exists already, you are an obsessed autist.

>>92391533
I feel that on some level a Shadow movie should be comparable to a mafia film.

>>92391870
Anonetty getting worked by anti-Batmanetty smark
Anonlet BTFO

>>92390116
When, when,when??? Cartoons? Superman hasn't had a solo cartoon since the fucking 90's. Video games? Spits shit and now it's even worse thanks to the likes of injustice. Movies??! One movie, one movie and it wasn't that good either then he couldn't even have his own sequel because we had to shove Batbitch in there.

File: The-Shadow-1994.jpg (89KB, 580x887px) Image search: [Google]

89KB, 580x887px

>>92391720
As someone who absolutely adores The Shadow, I simply cannot agree. Trust me, I wanted this movie to be a masterpiece so badly when I heard of it. And it had everything to be one too. The score is phenomenal, some of Jerry Goldsmith's best work. The casting is great. Hell, I don't think it's a bad movie at all. But it is undeniably too flawed, and not what the character deserved.
It suffers from a very weak and flimsy script and also having the wrong tone. It's obviously trying to go for a campy comic book tone, and while this works better for characters like Batman, it's not quite the right fit for The Shadow. And in doing so, it didn't give audiences much of a reason to care about The Shadow since he just came across as another silly masked vigilante with a secret identity, rather than the allmighty dark master of secrets that pulp readers and radio listeners felt so attracted to. It was a movie that had too much style and no substance (and it didn't make that style into substance).
And that's honestly the biggest reason why the movie failed: it didn't gave many people a reason to be excited about The Shadow.

Again I reitirate this: it's not a bad movie. I enjoy it a lot. But it falls just short of greatness, a 6/10 at best, and that is not what the character needed or deserved.
It didn't deserve to flop but it's disheartening that it did. And it came out at the time comic book movies where in decline and it had to compete with Lion King.
I honestly believe that if the movie had come out just a little bit earlier, maybe before Batman 89, and it had a different director and tone, it would have revitalized public interest in The Shadow and we could be living in a different age of comic book movies right now, possibly even a resurgence of pulps (since The Rocketeer also came out around this time).

>>92385474
>War Games
>OMAC Project
>Tower of Babel

I'm not seeing your point.

>>92392748
>>War Games
He wasn't evil here. It was mostly a huge fuckup between him and Steph.
>>OMAC Project
Again, a fuckup, and he actively tries to stop the real bad guys.
>>Tower of Babel
Another fuckup where he tries to stop the bad guys.

Mind you, I'm not trying to excuse Batman here, it's just that's how the story itself presents these particular instances: as fuckups. Batman is somewhat at fault but it's never presented in an evil way, unlike something like Injustice where Superman is objectively the bad guy because he had murdered some of his comrades willingly.

>>92385750
Alright then, genuinely curious, name me some "Batman goes evil and takes over the world" stories. No, stories where ALL DC characters get reversed moralities don't count, just Batman.

If you want the Shadow characters to be "more developed" then go pick up a pulp if you can, or go listen to the radio serial.

>>92392676
I think you're wrong on a few points, like the lightheartedness being a better fit for Batman, but hey, perspective. You're sure right about everything else. Hollywood always screws up things now anyway. Look at Stallone's Dredd. It's like we're living in denial that there's a big name studio that's become Asylum Films and we don't want to admit it.
>still bitter about John Carter

The Shadow tried for a period piece, but was upstaged at every turn. Indiana Jones out-period'd it. Batman out-night'd it. It didn't have the feel of relentless unstoppable doom being the hero. Hell, Darkman out stunt-worked it a little. But it was great. It was entertaining, it was action, it did the unexpected, and it did the expected well. The actors were great, but then I'm a sucker for Tim Curry's ability to turn any scene in to some sort of shenanigans. So yeah, The Shadow, great movie.

>>92385785
Yeah
Also the Reeves Superman movies are the worst superhero movies of all time
Mainly because of that point

>>92385474
What batman never beat tortured or killed people before lol actually read comics u yard at lest read the Frank miller shit or shit before 1950s while captain American and superman were content with just slaping the odd jap batman would just kill them batman is a vigilante he is a criminal that kills other criminals

>>92392676
Rocketeer was 1991.

While ostensibly a superhero film, The Phantom nailed the kind of light-hearted pulp adventure that they tried to force on The Shadow and did it with very little camp.

>>92392922
Together all of them present a recurring negligence on the part of Batman. OMAC Project/Infinite Crisis in particular makes him look very bad, as he intentionally covers his tracks to obscure his involvement with Brother Eye until the end.

>>92385797
Nah, a story about an underdog villain protagonist that takes over the world against impossible odds sounds pretty good to me. The only reason you say it wouldn't work is because you're hell bent on defending DC and/or lack imagination.

>>92393095
Ow the edge.

>>92393131
Just because Batman's prone to fucking up doesn't mean he's evil. It's not the same.

>>92393143
Name one thing about any of those movies that was decent

>>92393173
To quote FindLaw:

...when someone acts in a careless way and causes an injury to another person, under the legal principle of "negligence" the careless person will be legally liable for any resulting harm.

The question is, at what point does incompetence become malevolence?

>>92385843
Underdogs are supposed to have a theoretical disadvantage.

But everything we're shown about Batman suggests that he's at an extreme advantage over his opponents mentally and has near infinite resources to become superior physically.

Just because he's not naturally stronger than his opponents doesn't mean his wealth and technology aren't counted as an advantage.

Batman is the overdog in nearly every encounter he gets into, at least depending on the writer

>>92388220
You god damn right anon

>>92393235
The acting, especially Reeve, Brando and Stamp
The effects
The writing, especially before Clark goes to Metropolis
THE FUCKING MUSIC

File: IMG_0906.jpg (449KB, 900x600px) Image search: [Google]

449KB, 900x600px

>>92393330
Going on from this, Tony Stark has all the nuance and depth and flaws that ought to naturally come from Batman's characterization but never do because that might make him less likable

Batman is western cartoons' Kirito at this point

>>92393131
And The Shadow came out in 1994, yes. Similar time period.

>>92393038
>the lightheartedness being a better fit for Batman
Well it is. Campy shenanigans and sillyness is a part of Batman. Batman is associated more with being a dark character now, but the character stayed as a campy superhero for a pretty long period of time. It was only thanks to comics like The Dark Knight Returns and Killing Joke, and the Tim Burton movies, that Batman actually became a dark figure of his own. Batman was created as a clowned-up copy of The Shadow, and after Robin and more supervillains were introduced, he became a campy Superman in bat clothing, and then he developed his own dark identity that we are familiar with.

>Hell, Darkman out stunt-worked it a little
I'd argue Darkman is slightly more faithful to the essence of The Shadow than the actual Shadow movie was, and it's not surprising considering Raimi made Darkman because he lost the rights to The Shadow but decided to make the movie he wanted to do anyway with more freedom to change things.

>>92385474
You know whats worse than batman never being the badguy?

He always wins and can never be faulted at for anything he does

holy shit, he lets harley walk free in injustice and batfags are like "hurr harley is harmless on her own but anyway, superman is totally wrong in this he shouldnt have killed joker durrrrr"

>>92393428
>>92392676
>>92391533
The Shadow is a very underated movie, as you said; it came in 1994 when Lion King appeared and it still holds to date as Disney´s best animated film.

Back then, there still was not the tech to do a proper Shadow movie so they went with what they had, and today we have the tech but sadly it is over used to the point even the first Jurassic Park keeps up to date despite being a year older than Lion King.

>>92385630
So Batman>Superman, Batman<Lex Luthor, but Superman>Lex Luthor? What's wrong here?

>>92393381
I'll give you the music but the rest is bullshit

>>92393404
Tony Stark is basically what you get when Batman isn't your top franchise. Even then you still see some of the same issues with Tony.

>>92393428
The problem was that The Shadow was Universal trying to have it's own superhero franchise to compete with Batman.

Why? Because even DC writers are Batfags.
Batman is easily the worst hero these days, since he's pretty much been turned into some misunderstood Gary Stu.

The moment they decided to remove his limitations as a human, was the moment Bats lost his purpose. He's just some meme character these days, that keeps going on due to massive popularity, since kids like dark shit these days.

>>92393614
Nothing, it's rock-paper-scissors

>>92393644
'kay, keep being an edgy contrarian shit, I guess.

>>92388220
I loved him.

Owlman is the hero of anti-cape.

>>92393142
I don't completely disagree with you. It might sound good to you, could be good in the hands of a good writer (anything could, actually) but it's not an easy sell, and this is comics we're talking about.
You could've made your point without trying to make this into some sort of company bullshit, you know.

>>92386083

Have you been reading DC comics in the last years? Batman most of the times is shown to be dumb, wrong or weak. Even in his own ongoings. Go check Detective Comics for example. Is nothing but Batman being told he's wrong or getting his ass handed to him.

>>92393404

Dude, Batman's filled with character flaws. It's easier to find flaws and redeeming traits.