What is your opinion about her? I personally think she already

After her Williams and Rucka left she literally had no point

She is jewish ugh.

>>83833653
I can't state my opinion about her without being assaulted by all her fanboys here so I would not say anything about this horrible pandering character that only exists to leech on the popoularity of a pre-existing franchise.

>>83833653
I'd like her better if she has the old haircut and without pale skin

She's a lesbian.

That's really all there is to her.

>>83833653
I agree with you OP

Her ongoing was okay for the first half and is one of those books that get carried by the art.

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>>83833653
She's very boring. Like a female Batman or something.
They really need to play up the lesbian angle like /co/'s version of Batwoman does.

>>83833653
Horrible misunderused, its like they don't know exactly what to do with her even with her success.

Maybe since Rucka ia back at DC, he can salvage what was done to her while he was away. I heard after Rucka left, Williams was a good at writing her character, but lacked action so I avoided it. Kate will probably get back with Maggie before Renee, but either is fine to me.

love the character design, thought JHW3's contributions were amazing
other than that, meh

>>83833905
>pedophilia is okay because she's a girl, loooool

>Batwoman and Montoya mini where they end up happy as a couple, abandoning cape activities
>Steph as Gotham's Batgirl and Cass travelling the world doing stuff for Bruce in a Inc kind of way
>Babs back to being Oracle and coordinating the Batcave instead of the shitty Snyder OC

This would be the perfect status quo for the female batfamily

>>83834127
the perfect status quo would be for all of them to bead or retired, same for their fans

>>83833653
can't wait until the outrage machine circles around to have her sleep with a man and enjoy it

>>83834127
That's sounds awful

>>83833653
She's hot af

>>83834127
Wasn't Steph and Cass both doing exactly that in Morrison's Batman Inc? I know Steph was.

>>83834157
Sjws can't process conflict.

>>83834157
Wait what? Why would outrage have her not be a lesbian?

>>83833653
I thinks she's awesome and I think she's worthy of the cowl......but I haven't read the newer stories which I am told are completely batshit....pun intended...

>>83834177
Yes and DC should have let that stay. Inc was the natural progression for each of the characters.

>>83833653

>Small, but incredibly obnoxious and devoted fanbase
>Blatant rip-off of Batman
>Lesbianism is her most defining trait
>Is condescending without having earned the right to be
>Stole the Bat-symbol, yet apparently claims its hers

I hate how they're incorporating her into the Batfamily. I'd be perfectly fine with lesbian Bruce as long as she was removed from the main continuity or at least operated in her own seperate bubble.

>>83833729
So....don't like any Batman characters then? lol

>>83834236
Oh it was intended, you could've used more suitable words.

>>83834279
Because you know how being lesbian is Batmans only defining trait....what a complete ripoff!

>>83833653

Love her.

>>83834279
>Stole the Bat-symbol, yet apparently claims its hers
Batman's not real and his symbol means nothing. They gave his symbol to a fucking dog once

Why do people say being a lesbian is her only defining trait? Army brat, worked with her father to train to be Batwoman by various special ops, a strange connection to her twin sister who was kidnapped by terrorists, part of a supernatural prophecy, punches ghosts, wasn't she in a relationship with the new The Question .....

>>83833653
Elegy and World's Finest are fantastic. Most of her stuff is worth reading for JHW's art alone. I'm probably alone on this but I don't think the later half of her New 52 stuff is that bad. It's just mediocre.

>>83834416
Because it's the only thing anybody cares about among all those traits you listed.

>>83834456
Well, that's their fault, isn't it?

>>83834279
And now she is training Tim, Cass and Steph because being a lesbian at West Point makes you the best at everything

>>83834354
>it's okay when DC does it!

Of course

>>83834416
I feel like the news hype cycle when she debuted in 52 made her stick in the crowd as just "the lesbian Batwoman"

>>83834594
Have you even read the books?

>>83834594
It's their corporate property. Tim Drake is no less wortht of the Bat symbol than Orpheus because it's their characters and there's no inherent value to the Bat symbol beyond product.

If you don't like the character cool but don't say shit like "didn't earn" as if that means anything

>>83834529
Casuals who don't read the comics they discuss? Yeah.

>>83834416

...none of those are character traits besides being a brat

>>83834607
Apparently! lol

She has a has a whole story, and none of it is " She was Batmans sidekick so now she's Mini Batman now"

>>83833729
>People will yell at you.
But not on your facebook. Say what you want, dipshit.

>>83834701You want me to type out her personality? lol If you actually read it and now just looked at pictures on 4chan you'd know

>>83834108
>teenagers
>pedophilia
Get a load of this faggot.

>>83834213
It gives views to anything that feeds it.

>>83834157
Nigga what? Who?

>>83834668

Seriously? That's the angle you're taking? "Corporate property?" The point is IN-UNIVERSE the Batsymbol belongs to capes who work with Batman. She slapped it in her chest and then makes a point to crow about how its her identity and hers alone.

>>83834940
>She slapped it in her chest and then makes a point to crow about how its her identity and hers alone.
When will this meme die

>>83834787

Lmao I love how every katefag's first defense is claiming I havent read any Batwoman. I read Elegy and aside from the art its not half as good as the characterfags claim. Its good, dont get me wrong, but the point remains is she's still a rip-off who doesn't possess any kind of unique, interesting characteristics besides being a lesbian.

>>83833826
>>83834279
>>83834456
>>83835064
Why are fags so hung up on her being a lesbian?It's not like she has any more relationship drama than any other capeshit characters.

>>83833905
>They really need to play up the lesbian angle
No, faggotry, feminism and man hate already infests and ruins comics enough

>>83835168
>lesbian
>feminism and man-hate
God, you're pathetic.

I liked that part when she was fighting the thing in the mirror and she just pulled out a gun and shot the mirror to pieces. I think Wonder Woman was there by that point? It's been a while but I didn't dislike reading most of it.

I actually like the idea of someone focused on the more paranormal/supernatural stuff that happens in Gotham, sort of like a Justice League Dark to the regular Batman.

I've never really gotten into any of the Batfamily characters, but I think the fact that she's pretty divorced from the rest of them outside of sharing their geography most of the time helped in that regard.

Batwoman fans sure get triggered when you point out she is a female version of a previous character.

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>>83835116
That is basically all the wikipedia article about her talks about.

>>83835277
>Batman fans sure get triggered when you point out there is a lesbian version of him
Fixed

>>83835334
Why is Kate painted but Bette isn't?

>>83833653
But she was terrible in 52.

>>83835337

>case in point

Lmao you people really are retarded

>>83835391
Being gay is bad for your skin

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>>83835337
Lesbians are so last century.

>>83835391
It's another of her quirky traits!!!

>>83835499
Fuck off.

>>83835453
Nobody cares about she being female Batman. Nobody but you.

>>83833653
>I personally think she already peaked during 52 and her Elegy arc,
I agree. I love Elegy, but I tried getting into her New 52 series and just got bored.

>>83835535
You guys clearly do considering how defensive you get when someone points it out

I'm much more upset about them ruining John Constantine.

I love fuckups.
She's genuinely terrible at working with people and maintaining any sort of relationship, has a chip on her shoulder, and is largely incapable of moving past her problems even though she's aware of them.
Even her motivations for being Batwoman are pretty misguided and seem like an outlet for her frustrations.
She's a poor man's Kate Spencer Manhunter, but there's nothing too wrong with that.

Never cared for them making her Bruce's cousin, and I feel like Tynion has no grasp of the character.
Hopefully Rucka gets back on her before too long.

>>83835391
She isn't.
That's just Kate's face.

>>83835245
You should check out Gotham By Midnight.

She was great under Rucka, but there was absolutely no reason for her continued existence after he left. Blackman and Williams were not up to the writing task, even if Williams was a fantastic artist and did great breakdowns.

>>83833729
Read 52. Then you'd know that she definitely had a point instead of crying "PANDERING" like an idiot.

>>83835245

>I actually like the idea of someone focused on the more paranormal/supernatural stuff that happens in Gotham, sort of like a Justice League Dark to the regular Batman

Yeah because fuck Ragman right? I'm so glad we have a progressive Batman ripoff instead.

>>83835623
>lmao she looks like a vampire because wouldn't that be cool since she is batwoman? xD

that's the great writing behind this character

>>83835623
>She isn't.
>That's just Kate's face.
She clearly is. Kate's skin is painted meanwhile Bette is cel-shaded.

>>83835582
How do you know you're not arguing with the same guy on every thread?

>>83835669
I know you're just shitposting but her inhumanly pale skin and ridiculously red hair are what I really like about her design.

>>83835647
I did, sorry but not everyone is easily impressed by redheads like you

>>83835668
>fuck Ragman right?
Yeah, sure.

>>83835669
Makes her more immediately distinguishable from Barbara, who Kate's first design was meant for.

>>83835696
Oh duh.
It's something Williams was doing. Kate's look was how the Batwoman scenes looked.

>>83835771
>It's something Williams was doing.
Well I hadn't noticed at the time.

>>83835668
>fuck Ragman right
Always

Considering all capeshit writing is garbage anything with great art starts with 3 legs up.

t. All new Elektra fag

>>83833653
isnt she a jew?

nah bro, nuh

>>83836038
Does that mean Bruce is a jew?

>>83836091
Kinda. Jews are Matrilineal. Thing is, Bruce was raised Catholic, so Martha was some kind of lapsed Jew.

>>83835755
Then you'd know that "the only reason why she exists is pandering" is an untrue statement.

>>83835668
Who the fuck cares about Ragman?

They never really bothered to explain her family history.
Her dad was Martha's brother, and they're the wealthy and prestigious Kane family.
Only her dad is just some military guy and the money comes from her stepmom.

I know the name if a leftover from the original character and Rucka/Williams never meant for her and Bruce to be related, but editorial (and I think Morrison?) had other ideas.

Just bugs me a bit.

>>83836207
Nobody
It's a shame though. He's pretty rad.

>>83836091
Through his mother's side kinda yeah

>>83833653
Did you know that she is a lesbo?

>>83836304
That caption at the start of every issues of her ongoing did make me roll my eyes before long.

>>83836262
Yeah, I mean, I don't have a problem with him. I enjoy some of the stuff with him in it. I just don't think he renders Batwoman invalid or is particularly interesting.

I like both Batwoman and Simon Dark more, to be honest.

Who don't they give her a male kid sidekick? How many instances do we have of a female superhero having a male sidekick, or a mother-son dynamic?

>>83835064
The point doesn't remain because you made no point, just say stupid shit and say that's that, lol

>>83835168
Wow, your an insecure idiot! lol

A character is a lesbian in one of your comic books, and your crying now that comics "hate men"?

That's sad

remember when they killed the Question and replaced him with another lesbian so Kate could have a girlfriend? Fun times!

>>83835623
See? All you said "I'm lesbian Batman" . Obviously her only character trait

>>83833653

I think I'd actually have to give a shit about her long enough to form an opinion of her before I could tell you anything.

So... yeah. Don't hold your breath.

>>83836364
Admit you just want incest comics with her

>>83836478
The Question was good....it literally had nothing to do with Batwoman....everyone is really obsessing over hating the lesbian thing, aren't they...

>>83836478
52 was great and his death was good

>>83836512
>I have absolutely nothing to add

>>83836557
>>83836560
yeah, as good as female thor

>>83836091
... why the fuck do the jews do this?

>>83836574

>said Batwoman to the bat mythos

>>83836574

Yep. Welcome to /co/, motherfucker.

>>83836512
Careful not to cut yourself on those edges, kid

>>83833653
She's ok. Her comic is boring and hurts my eyes. It was better when she was fighting were-animals in the #0 issue.

>>83836585
Obvious bait

>>83834701
trauma of being kidnapped and believing her twin sister plus having a dead mother who was killed by the same organization isn't enough for you? She sure had a lot more reason to turn to crime fighting than bruce.

>>83836592
Who gives a shit about the "bat mythos"?

>>83833653
Interesting character but her series had a problem of getting really good and then horribly crashing several times.

also far to many fucking 2 page spreads

>>83833826
I don't know why people say her sexuality is pushed it really isent you could make the case for its mention in her intro bit about her traits but that whole paragraph is cringy as fuck not just the proud lesbian line.

>>83836667
Williams/Blackman didn't do anything too interesting, Andreyko was alarmingly terrible, and now she's stuck with Tynion.

Being Batwoman is suffering.

>>83836742
The fact she's a lesbian is the only thing people care about.

>>83836638
Wanting to do good and help the city is the only reason male heroes need.
But I agree, women are sleifhs so she needs way more personal reasons to give a fuck.

>>83836742
>>83836759
The fact she's a lesbian is the only thing people know about cause shitposters don't read comics
ftfy

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>>83836771
nigga WHAT!?!? How could you possibly justify saying some off the wall shit like that?

>>83836785
Sure they do.

It's just pathetically easy to troll certain people.
No matter how obvious or repetitive the bait, someone always takes it.

>>83836771
its always /pol/ evertime i get into an argument its always /pol/ waving its dick around yelling NOTICE ME. i'm done with this shit thread fuck every single one of you goodnight.

>>83836874
But why? Why can't people just have civil discourse?

>>83836835
if you actually read comics you would know that while that's the catalyst Bruce, Dick and others keep doing became heroes and do what they do because they want to help the city and the people in it

>>83836928
Dick has dead parents too. Bruce has dead parents, Barry has a dead mom, Peter Parker has a dead uncle and there are a million other superheroes with dead family and they all became superheroes nonetheless. So what the fuck are you even on? (Rhetorical question)
Fuck off.

>>83836590
You always know who your mother is.

>>83834416
To be fair, the only writer to accurately convey the military influence on her character was Rucka.

King would probably write a great Batwoman.

>>83836742

Didn't she beat Livewire by being lesbian or some shit?

And then make out with her on the hood of a car?

>>83834279
>blatant rip-off of Batman
That's kinda the point m8, she's was inspired by the fucker but doesn't want or need his approval because she's a grown woman and not some bat-tenny bopper.

>>83836590
The Egyptians apparently did it too. The royal blood was passed through the mom not dad. So Pharoh would fuck his sister. King Tut died at 19 due to generations of Incest.

>>83750060

>>83770980

>>83799173

>>83827925

>>83837139
1. She one with an insulated Batsuit
2. That was Batgirl
3. That was a goddamn edit made on /co/
Jesus fucking Christ.

>>83837139
You're thinking of an edit of an early Stephanie Brown Batgirl issue.

>>83834456
>because Lesbians trigger me because I"m a huge fag
FTFY.

>>83834594
What did DC do again? Gave a character a symbol? Bats as crime fighting motif is not copyrighted by Bruce.

>>83835334
>I get all my comic information for Wikipedia
Why am I not surprised?

>>83835668
Ragman goes where he needs to, to the disenfranchised and oppressed.
>also implying that Batwoman and Ragman can't work together

shouldn't be a bat character, or in dc for that matter

and image book about a former military lesbian vigilante who fights supernatural enemies would work so much better on it's own

>>83837190
welcome to /co/ where we force ourselves into conversations about shit we know nothing about.

>>83836262
Yeah this bothered me too, trying to make it seems she's less privileged but there ain't wrong with being a rich brat who decided to serve.

>>83837196

Ah. That's a shame, I like Livewire.

>>83837351
>shouldn't be a bat character, or in dc for that matter
Why?
>mage book would work so much better on it's own
Why?

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>>83837351
Sounds like a Vertigo book.

>>83836742
If anything her sexuality isn't brought into focus nearly enough. Let her be queer and proud, make her a playboy lesbian.

>>83837432
That's what I've been saying!

>>83837422
Vertigo is DC, like a lot of vertigo stuff happened in the DC universe.

>>83837432
You just want /co/'s Batwoman to be canon.

Which I understand and respect.

>>83837417
everything shit that hasn't happened to the character has been due to DC editorial

her best story is almost completely removed from the rest of the DC universe

if she didn't need the bat emblem on her chest to sell her stories, she'd be better off without it

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>>83837471
hurrrrr durrrrrr

>>83837496
Makes sense.

>>83837463
It's one thing I think Karc andreyko got right was that queerness, y"knowatI'msayin? She wasn't just Daddy's little army action figure anymore.

>>83837496
>her best story is almost completely removed from the rest of the DC universe

that's literally true for every superhero in the DC universe, Batumblr is not special in that

>>83837643
>Batumblr
Jesus christ.

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>>83837643
Scraping the bottom of the barrel now.

>>83837643
I don't disagree with you
I actually think most characters would be better off in their own universe

>>83837696
>The Minx by Peter Milligan
That was a weird one. Then again you can say that for about most of Milligan's books.

>>83837729
Nah fuck that, it's all about dat Pluralism son. Everyone has an adventure and all their adventures matter and sometime they bump into each other.

>>83837741
>Enigma
>Literally turn the main character gay to fit him into the comic book story.
I ought to storytime that someday.

>>83837797
Maybe if they did that like invincible where people show up but their continuity isn't being piled on top of everything. Shared universes are fucking cancer.

>>83837604
On a somewhat related note; I always hated the direction they took with Bette, what with the whole coma thing and Jacob treating her exactly like Kate. Just always felt forced and disrespectful.
>also Hawkfire is a shit name.

>>83837839
>Shared universes are fucking fun
FTFY

i don't know much besides her being a lesbian i would rather read cass or Stephanie

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> Mfw JHWIII puts super HQ pics of his covers/art on his website

What one should I have made into a poster?

>>83837969
Top row, far left
2nd row, second from the left
Or 3rd row far right.

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Sure why not Only 122 pages crossover

>>83837196
Literally the only thing they know about the comics

>>83834279
Blatant ripoff of Batman.....


You guys think this is Marvel's Batwoman or something? Is Batgirl a ripoff of Batman too? lol

Kate Kane is bae.

Can't waifu her because she's gay and all but she's one of my favorite members of the Bat-family for sure.

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>>83837779

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>>83837793

So how do you guys feel about her being related to Bruce wayne?

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>>83834302

>>83838501
> Proud of you kid
Thanks Dad I'll pay you back by making sure you family line dies with you

>>83837432
She had a phase where she was a playboy

She's probably at her weakest in the bad blood film where its set to recently for her to have been kicked out of the military because lesbian so she just gets kicked out because reasons.

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>>83838568

>>83834279
>Lesbianism is her most defining trait
No it's not

>>83833653
I first 'met' her in 52 and really liked this idea of angry red headed bat lady who is more tied to legitimate occult crimes compared to her psychologically inclined male counterpart. I loved the bitterhot chemistry between her and Renee, and how they both came from the GPD

Then it turns out barely any writers work those angles or even know what to do with her, which was disappointing since the occult is a niche none of the rest of the batfamily focus on either.

>>83838466
it amuses me that it makes Batman jewish

>>83839432
another thing, the bat theme obviously gives a certain vampire motif to that side of the senpai, and Kate makes a perfect Camilla to Bruce's Dracula, triply so since she's a lesbian

>>83839648
this is a great page

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The end

thanks for the storytime

>>83840003
You welcome anon

>>83840245
there are no bad characters, only bad writers

>>83833653

She's been a consistently good character but yeah Elegy was definitely her best story

Hey, Ruckas back now, he should have another shot at her

>>83840305
>Bad writers
Every time I see that I automatically think "Fuck you Bendis!!"

Rucka/JHWIII run was one of the best Bat runs of the last 10 years IMO.

Williams 3 solo was also great. Once he got cucked out of the title by DC, it went to shit.

Probably the character with the most unused potential in the DCU imo.

>>83840862
Agreed anon.

>>83833653
Irrelevant character used to maintain copyrights.

>>83836920
They can, they just don't want to.

>>83833965
I think the trickiest part. She's running around with a bat on her chest, but there's no clear idea on what her relationship with batman should be.

>>83833965
>her success
>sold so bad the book had to be cancelled

Top fucking kek

>>83842225
It sold well until they kicked Williams and Blackman off of it, then the sales cratered.

>>83842297
that's typical of meme characters, they sell well at first and then fall apart because the novelty is gone

just like many new comics at marvel

>>83840862
>Probably the character with the most unused potential in the DCU imo.
Nah, there are others just as bad or even worse so far as unused potential go.

Like Zatanna, Dr. Fate, Lady Shiva, Cassandra Cain, Captain Marvel at this moment...

Kate is pretty up there though, don't get me wrong.

>Bruce had close family
>still raised by the butler
Making them cousins kinda fucks up Bruce's backstory.

>>83835116
Hard to waifu a lesbian. Even if she's imaginary.

We all can agree that her being able to beat Bruce is bullshit right?

Not because "hur dur women are always inferior to men", but because Batman is like a billion times better trained and more experienced.

>>83845370
normally I play devil's advocate on stuff like this but yeah, unless she manages to stick him with poison or something she just doesn't have the training to beat Bruce

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Why does it seem that there are not straight female superheroes anymore?

Also to be pretty honest, lesbian romance doesn't just appeal to a lot of guys. The porn maybe. Maybe to some 'straight' women because some of them are closet bis. Actual romance is hard enough to push on guys but something which males cannot emotionally partake in is such a hard sale.

>pic: heres a coconut

>>83837092
>King would probably write a great Batwoman.

Kind of wish he was writing 'Tec rather than the main Batbook desu.

Dunno who they'd have on Batman in that case though, other than Tynion.

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The only good Batwoman was in the Timmverse.

>>83844252
Only for newfags who do not wish to be the little girl.

>>83845953
The one who's a superspy and murders people is pretty decent. The part where she kills Talia, in the Batcave, right in front of Bruce, and all he can do is have a mental breakdown while she casually leaves was pretty hilarious. Though they got rid of her ever having been Batwoman with the New 52.

>>83833653
Batcharacter like Batcharacter. I do like her costume and paleness, though.

>>83846163
is this really thing? I always assumed it was a moot meme.

>>83846193
You'll never know because you don't lurk.

>>83846176
>The part where she kills Talia, in the Batcave, right in front of Bruce, and all he can do is have a mental breakdown while she casually leaves was pretty hilarious.

Who wrote this shit? Why they make female super heroines into edgy shit?

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Steve Orlando leading the new Batman family crossover, Night of The Monster Man, it'll cross over Batman,Nightwing & Detective Comics

>>83846236
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/batman-and-allies-to-fight-giant-kaiju-creatures/1100-6440994/

>>83846251
>>83846215

>>83846214
If you'd ever actually read comics before you'd probably know.

>>83846214
I don't know man. Females are alien enough to the male nerd population. Why are they written so inaccessible and un-rootable and all around un-relatable? No wonder nerds just devolve into waifufagging. And make Batcharacter into a female lesbian bull-dyke military brat. The character is just so...

>>83846236
Wasn't Night of the Monster Man a mina-séries where Batman encounters Hugo Strange for the first time? He also fight mutated humans for the first time.

>>83846282
>female lesbian bull-dyke military brat
Nice buzzwords, you sure do read comics

I do agree female characters are often badly written, but I think Batwoman isn't an example of that in her best runs, where she's quite human and relatable. Which you would know if you picked up a comic once in a while.

>>83845562
>Why does it seem that there are not straight female superheroes anymore?
The only reason I can think of is that you're keeping your eyes closed.

Seriously. Lesbian superheroines are tiny portion of the overall pie.

>>83846214
Grant Morrison. Katherine/Katrina/Luka Kane/Webb/Netz is about as much of a superhero as James Bond is at best, which is why she was the villain for most of Grayson.

>>83833653
Not a fan.

>>83833653
She's a lesbian and as such literally useless.

>>83834108
nigger this board has plenty of ss and gay pedo shit, that's tame as fuck

>>83846431
To add to this, the only way Batwoman is "SJW" and pandering is if you're literally unable to stand gay people in stories.

She's a soldier. She's a vigilante. She fights monsters. She searches for her sister. She has fights with her dad. She has to deal with a corrupt agency blackmailing her.

Literally the only difference her gender and sexual orientation have is that it gets her kicked out of the army and dictates who she romances. That's it. That's like a textbook case of how to write a minority character right.

>>83847555
Whether you or me or anyone else is able to handle gays or not is irrelevant to her being SJW or not.

What makes her sjw if she was/is_being written for diversity points or out of genuine inspiration.

>>83847590
That's retarded.

"Genuine inspiration" would mean that a gay character can't be put in a book unless their gayness has an actual point and is their defining characteristic. That's the precise fucking opposite of how to handle minority characters. That's how you get Marvel's Thor and Mockinbird.

>>83833653
Anyone know who drew this? It looks like it might be Lee Bermejo but I can't find any info on it.

>>83847850
Why would that be genuine inspiration? Genuine inspiration is when you make something based on how you dreamed of it. Like, I assume most cape-readers think from time to time what characters they'd make if they could make someone. And as they either a)imagine more than one character or b)put their imaginations together with established ones and have them interact in their mind, some of them could end up having romantic interactions and some of them could have gay romantic interactions. That's genuine.

An aspiring new writer could make the same process. That'd be genuine inspiration.

The opposite would be thinking that you want to put a gay character because they're hip/rare/progressive/whatever and then you make a character around that.

It's a question of whether you flesh out a fantasy or pick a set of desired traits and try to make an amalgamation.