Who was right?

u'or mother

Both were right from a certain point of view.

Both and neither.

>>82606709
Both, depending on how you look at it.

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Tony.

>>82606791
You mispelled Cap, Anon.

>>82606709
>Avengers shit
Tony
>Bucky shit
Cap
>Starks shit
Tony

Cap was 100% right about everything.

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*cough*

If you seriously don't think Cap is completely right but Tony has a few good points you need to leave.

Should heroes be checked, probably. But after TWS, it's pretty clear to see how things can get fucked easily

Did people see the movie?

The movie literally shows Cap being right, and Tony joins his side before it's over.

I went in thinking Cap was right.
But the Russos (or Chris Evans?) even said that Tony was probably right in the end. How could supers operate independently and have no checks and balances?

And especially how could they cause so much destruction after chasing down a known villain.

Cap was wrong but for the right reasons.
Tony was right but for the wrong reasons.

>>82606820
But if they're not checked then they can't be heroes.

>>82606709
Tony.

>>82606849
But what if they NEED to go somewhere quickly to stop something, but the UN decides they can't?

What if the world ends because of red tape?

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CIA would've settled the dispute easily

>>82606874
But what if they WANT to go somewhere quickly to stop something and their Quinjet gets blown to pieces because the country they went to doesn't like people operating outside the law?

>>82606709
Cap.

The United States basically controls the UN. In TWS, the United States created three floating fortresses that could snipe anyone in the world based on perceived threat to the United States and the only problem with this was that it was about to be turned against the US itself.

This is what governments in the MCU are capable of. Fuck them.At worst, the Avengers will be used. At best, they'll be restricted by so much red tape as to make them useless.

Comic Tony is right, MCU Steve is right.

>Tony thinks everyone needs to get checked after his mistake with Ultron
>even when the whole purpose behind Ultron was due to a vision of an imminent threat that will threaten the world and even the universe
>even when Thor backed him up in proving that the threat is real

I understand how he came to his way of thinking in CW through his history of experiences, but he's not looking into the future as much as Capt is.

>Cap worries about hypothetical situation in which Avengers aren't allowed to intervene when they are needed or used as muscle
>no such situation takes place in the movie

Tony/Vision were clearly right about the supervision stuff.

>>82607019
>It doesn't show up in the few days the movie takes place

>That means it'll never happen!

Poor logic.

>>82606709
Cap, the UN are puppets to higher european countries like Germany, UK, and those are puppets to America meaning its really AMERICA TELLING THE AVENGERS WHAT TO DO, and we all know America goes completely psycho when it has absolute power in its hands.

>protagonist wins in the end
>antagonist is punished

I'm gonna say the writers probably think Cap's in the right.

>>82607019
You literally just said it's a hypothetical situation

>>82606709
Cap is right, Tony is left.

You'll learn this one day, Woolie.

>>82606874
Then they go anyway. What, you think that they'll just sit around with their thumbs up their butts because some politicians said so? That was a stupid fucking argument. Cap went on and on about how he wouldn't surrender his right to choose, but they never would have REALLY taken it from him. He broke the law when it suited him throughout the entire movie, how would signing and then disobeying the accords be any different?

>>82607144
>What, you think that they'll just sit around with their thumbs up their butts because some politicians said so?

YES!

THAT IS THE WHOLE FUCKING POINT OF THIS WHOLE THING

>but they never would have REALLY taken it from him.

Proof?

>>82606709
Cap

The UN is far too stupid and politicized to get anything done. Having to wait for the security council to give permission would have resulted in a nuked Manhattan, a destroyed East Coast, an Abomination, and the Earth being wiped clean of life.

Tony had a point about them leaping into action too quick and making people nervous. They could have done something more than saying "Fuck off" about the accords. It was a PR move, but nobody was playing ball. Hell, you'd think somebody would have at least ran it by someone in the intelligence community before publicly pursuing Crossbones.

The problem is that nobody in the world should have control over a troop of demigods and Hawkeye.

>>82607116
MCU Cap is IRL Murrika
>We're gonna free the shit out of you and if someone dies it's not our fault. AMERICA FUCK YEAH!
except MCU America sucks so he's more like AVENGERS FUCK YEAH!

The concept of registration is right. You want to enforce the law? There are certain requirements that come before we let people do that. You have super human abilities? That needs to be recorded just for something as simple as your medical record so we know you don't explode when surgery is done. In most of the western world you need a license for fucking everything, even owning a dog.

The way it was done here (and in the comic) was wrong and very obviously set up to be so with no room for an actual discussion on how given.

>>82607144
>Then they go anyway. What, you think that they'll just sit around with their thumbs up their butts because some politicians said so
That's the fucking point Cap is trying to make. They shouldn't care and go anyway, but these accords would make them criminals

>>82607159
The U.N has too much power its like a tyranny in disguise like the EU which is really a way for Germany to control the european economy.

>>82607130
deuteragonist

>>82607212
>concept of registration is right
Which is funny considering in comics SHIELD had all the info about pretty much everyone, super or not.

>>82606709

Tony, Cap was acting like an stupid retarded asshole while creating even MORE collateral damage just to save ONE guy.

>>82607264
Pretty much every super hero has gathered private information as well.

>>82607155
>Proof?
He broke the law throughout the entire movie, dipshit. Obviously he doesn't let the law get in the way of what he thinks is right. Even Tony broke the law to help Cap when he learned what was at stake and Black Widow helped Cap escape. But whatever anon, the Avengers have obviously proven themselves to be a bunch of pussies who kowtow to the bureaucracy. Signing that piece of paper to appease the people in power would have just been the end of everything. They would be forced to just sit by and watch the world burn because a bunch of super powered individuals just can't beat a piece of paper.

>>82606820
>But after TWS, it's pretty clear to see how things can get fucked easily

So that means that the walking weapons of mass destruction should not be checked at all, because ''things can get fucked up'' so lets not even try!

Tony was a 100% right.

The avengers are basically terrorists at this point.

>>82607250
Cap obviously doesn't care about being a criminal.

>>82606709
Tony was right, but Cap's fears are immediately proven true, so it's a wash.

>>82606823
>Tony joins his side before it's over.

To stop Captain from keep destroying everything around him!

Cap was. The bureaucrats who sought to leash the Avengers are the same cocksuckers who opted to nuke New York without giving the conventional military a chance to repel the Chitauri invasion

>>82606820
>But after TWS, it's pretty clear to see how things can get fucked easily
Things can go wrong every way. The question is do we just hope that the super heroes stay doing the right thing (not forgetting they can barely agree on stuff themselves), or use the system that while not perfect is what we use to run everything else

You wouldn't say lets not have a proper police force that is regulated cause sometimes there is corruption.

>>82607416
>You wouldn't say lets not have a proper police force that is regulated cause sometimes there is corruption.

But that's what happened after Winter Soldier.

The problems in this movie are caused by the Avengers doing missions that would be better suited for SHIELD.

>>82607338
>but they never would have REALLY taken it from him.

That is a big fucking assumption, though.

I need proof from you that this would actually have happened if Cap had signed the Accords.

I'd rather trust superheroes than any governments.
See the Internet in some countries? See how fucked up it is in some countries even in some supposed democracies.
The superheroes interest are far more useful for citizens than government's interest.
I'm not against government, but most likely they will not act in your interest otherwise you'd have 0 crimes, 0 drugs, no food scandal, electric cars everywhere, etc.

>>82607372
>Tony was right, but Cap's fears are immediately proven true, so it's a wash.
The problem is that Tony wanted the Avengers to have oversight, but the oversight they are organising sucked.

It doesn't matter how good your intentions are if you have bad people assigned to the job. The Accords was fine as a concept but it is clear no one in-universe really bothered to make sure it worked.

>>82607502
>I need proof from you that this would actually have happened if Cap had signed the Accords.
He broke the law to save Bucky and stop Zemo IN THE FUCKING MOVIE. He still chose to do what he believed to be right even though everyone was telling him no. On a fundamental level, he could still CHOOSE to break the accords to go where he's needed. He was just too fucking stubborn to play nice.

>>82607689
Isn't that a problem with any law? Even the most tightly worded law is at the mercy of the honesty and good will of those who enact and enforce it.

At least when a superhero goes bad, it's obvious.

>>82607712
But that's fucking wrong. Cap doesn't want to be a hypocrite. If he was okay with that, he'd have signed the Accords and then broken the law.

>all the shit in Civil Wars happens because Cap wanted revenge
>at the end he stops Tony from getting revenge because of "muh Bucky"

>>82607781
When the fuck did Cap want revenge? He was on the defensive most of the movie.

>>82607781
>Cap wanted revenge
Against who? For what?

>>82607726
>At least when a superhero goes bad, it's obvious.
Is it? Example Cap in this movie, he does arguably the right thing by saving a technically innocent man but breaks many laws and causes a lot of damage doing so

>>82607726
>Isn't that a problem with any law? Even the most tightly worded law is at the mercy of the honesty and good will of those who enact and enforce it.
>At least when a superhero goes bad, it's obvious.
The issue in-universe is that the Accords is just appeasement for the angry public. At no point did any world leaders tried to make sure Avengers can still function, they just like the political points they can score. And USA go along with it knowing that Ross would become the true leader of the Avengers, and being able to pawn any responsibility to the UN.

>>82607816
>Is it? Example Cap in this movie, he does arguably the right thing by saving a technically innocent man but breaks many laws and causes a lot of damage doing so
What is the point of obeying laws if you are going to let an innocent man die?

The laws are meant to serve justice, not the reverse. If you think it is fine to kill innocent people if it means obeying the law, then you don't have any laws at all.

>>82607803
He was chasing Rumlow because of personal vendetta.

That's why there's no War Machine and Vision in Nigeria.

>>82607911
He was chasing Rumlow because he was a former member of HYDRA and became a mercenary who obviously did not have good intentions.

Since, you know, he stole a biological weapon before being stopped.

>>82607886
So if they can justify it only to themselves then they can break any law they want?

Your idea only works under an objective morality where everyone agrees his action is right

>>82607911
Do you have a single fact to back that up?

>>82607816

And that's not going bad. Justice Lords/Injustice or Irredeemable are good examples of heroes going bad.

>>82607836
Of course the Avengers would still function, just as the personal hit squad of World Leaders.

Instead of Black Panther going out for revenge for his father, or sending in a German special ops team (despite it being Romania), he could just have his UN buddies order the Avengers to kill for him.

>>82607946
>So if they can justify it only to themselves then they can break any law they want?
Justify it to themselves?
What? The UN was wrong, Bucky was framed. Why do you want to kill an innocent man just because the UN said so? Isn't that exactly the problem with the Accords, in that the UN could tell Avenges to go murder innocent people like they ordered the German police to murder Bucky?

Since when do UNs get murder squads?

>>82607754
Nice principles. Too bad they shattered the Avengers.

And Rhodey's lower spine.

>>82608029
Oh well.

Tony has to live with being a fucking piece of shit that almost no one likes, as he deserves.

>>82608004
>could tell

The accords were about saying what the Avengers couldn't do, not what they could.

>>82606709
Tony, because the alternative was to get everyone arrested, retired, or on the run forever. At least Tony was trying to change the system from within.

>>82608063
And Cap has to live with being a criminal who split the Avengers in two because he couldn't deign to compromise.

>>82607932
>>82607950
Like I said both Vision and WM were absent in Nigeria.
If they went there as Avengers expecting Crossbones to do something sinister then they would bring their most powerful members.
They also didn't even know what was Crossbones target there so most likely Cap just learned Rumlow showed up in Lagos and he decided to act.

>>82608150
How is it compromise when his best friend gets killed for doing nothing wrong?

>>82608150
>split the Avengers in two because he couldn't deign to compromise.
Not to mention split Clint and Scott from their families, but they're also to blame for breaking the law in the first place knowing full well the consequences.

No idea what beef they had with Stark was. If anything, Stark's the reason they weren't gunned down by GSG9.

-Cap was right about the Avenger team being independent and not being a UN weapon.

-Tony was right about killing Bucky because he was a ex-american cyborg-super soldier assassin. It doesn't matter if Bucky was brainwashed or he did anything against his will, because he's still an ex-american cyborg super soldier assassin, you can't un-become or atone for that. Also cap was a huge faggot for putting "his ol' pal" Bucky before the Avengers. It's just a guy you used to be friends with, sheesh.

also you could argue that Tony agreed to the UN bullshit because pepper took his balls, and he was acting like a hormonal teenager / war veteran. and wasn't really himself.

Cap.

Tony LITERALLY couldn't follow the very rules he was fighting for.
It was how he was at the Siberian base- he disobeyed protocol

>>82608165
>How is it compromise when his best friend gets killed for doing nothing wrong?
That's the operative problem; Bucky may not have been in his right mind when he did those things, but as he said, he still did them, and he's very much still dangerous. Cap may have been right in pursuing the other 5 winter soldiers outside the law, but when it came to bucky, he was operation on complete emotion with no regard for the consequences.

>>82608165
Did you even watch the movie? Tony literally begged for a chance to take Bucky in alive. And you can't blame the government for trying to take down an enhanced brainwashed terrorist. He's innocent, but that doesn't mean he isn't a danger.

>>82608004
>Justify it to themselves?
He didn't get legal approval, therefore you are saying he only needs to justify it to himself it is the right action and he can break any law he wants

Again, are you saying it is okay for heroes to break any law they want if they believe they are right? Keeping in mind what is right or moral is not an objective fact

>>82608375
>Again, are you saying it is okay for heroes to break any law they want if they believe they are right? Keeping in mind what is right or moral is not an objective fact
There is nothing to keep in mind, the UN was demanding the execution of an innocent man without trial. If you are fine with that then clearly you don't care about accountability.

>>82608177
Don't get me wrong, I agree with you about Stark, but
>GSG9
>competently taking down anything, especially Avengers.

>>82608159
>implying Scarlett "reality is my plaything" Witch isn't their most powerful memeber

>>82608190
>-Tony was right about killing Bucky because he was a ex-american cyborg-super soldier assassin.
Actually Tony never claim he was right to kill Bucky, just as Zemo never claimed it was right for him to kill Black Panther's father. Tony want to kill Bucky because that's what he wanted at the time, your attempt to justify it is pointless because Tony didn't need defending.

>>82608476
The UN was demanding the elimination of a known enhanced terrorist. Are you really saying that Bucky should have just been left alone, or that normal soldiers should abstain from lethal force and put themselves in greater danger just to take him alive? That's asking an awful lot. Yes, Bucky is innocent, but he still did those things. He's a danger, and if he can't be contained then he should be killed.

>>82608476
So yes any hero can break the law when they believe they are justified?

Do you not see how that means it is not obvious when a super hero goes bad? One could go around break all kinds of laws, fighting the military and causing a lot of damage and it wouldn't be clear to many if they were a villain or a hero. This is especially true if they didn't have all the same information as that hero, but even if they did they may take a situation like this and say well Bucky could still be a threat so action needs to be taken. Again your point only works under objective morality where everyone sees things the same way

>>82608538
This. Even then, Tony didn't seem like he was trying to kill Bucky so much as beat the fuck out of him. He had plenty of chances to kill him, andd barely used his extensive arsenal to do anything but destroy the environment around him.

>>82607354
>The avengers are basically terrorists
Almost got me, but you tipped your hand with that one. 2/10

>>82606709
They were both right and they were both wrong. Movie was way better then the comic it was based on.

>>82608534
I think you're mixing comic SW with MCU SW.

>be streetlevel hero
>sign in cordovia accord
>some mafiaso searched my name for info then killed my family
Thanks tony

>>82608159
War Machine still works for the military and the Vision is still effectively a newborn.

Plus it was a stealth mission, and walking tank and robot deity don't blend in as easily as white dude, black dude and two chicks.

>>82607911
He was after Rumlow because Rumlow was going to release a dangerous biological weapon upon innocent people

>>82608579
>He had plenty of chances to kill him
He was about to blow Bucky up with a missile. The only reason he couldn't was because he lost the aiming program, just like back in IM1 with Ironmonger.

>>82607354
Tony fucked up everytime.

We need to put in check. By Ross? By the guys who shitty security literally let Zemo interrogate Bucky ending in his escape because mind control may I add. Can you trust any fucking organization?

Prison to guys who have saved the earth

You walk free after Ultron

Even with evidence, Ross to the surprise of no one is an asshole

Cap as right as Cyclops and that is Right as fuck

>>82608559
>that normal soldiers should abstain from lethal force and put themselves in greater danger just to take him alive?

Yes, that's the whole fucking point of law enforcement. It's not the UN's place to be Judge, Jury, and Executioner. It's pretty clear if the Avengers started working for the UN, they'd be the ones told to murder whoever pissed off world leaders this week.

>>82608665
On the other hand, there's no mention of the accords requiring superheroes to unmask, unlike the SRA.

>>82608767
But it is for heroes as you have said it is okay for them to break laws if they feel justified in doing so? Otherwise you whole point falls apart

>>82608673
>don't blend in as easily as white dude, black dude and two chicks
Everyone there was black so both SW and BW stood out.
Also both Cap and Falcon were wearing their suits so that's not blending either.

>>82608857
But they can cover up that shit.

You can't put a coat over War Machine and get him inconspicuous.

>>82608029
Vision shattered Tony's spine, while trying to kill Falcon

>>82607019

Did you miss the very real threat of Zemo in the film that the UN was completely oblivious to?

And this is just one guy who literally swapped places with a Doctor he looked nothing like and they let him in anyway.

Yeah no. The UN proved why they can't be in charge of the Avengers almost instantly.

>>82608915
Rhodey's spine*

>>82608838
Superheroes are reactive, not active.

>>82607019
>Avengers don't get the chance to take in Bucky, a German killing squad was just sent in to shoot first and ask questions later
>If Cap hadn't told Ross and Tony to shove their thumbs up each other's asses and intervened, Bucky would have died for a crime he didn't commit

That is exactly the kind of thing Cap was talking about

>>82607116
>liberals go completely psycho when it has too much power

ftfy

>>82608973
That doesn't change the point, being reactive still means they are making a subjective choice that here leads them to break the law. Even when presented with all the same facts a different conclusion come be reached like Bucky needs to be taken down no mater if he was brainwashed and that he could still in fact be dangerous.

Seeing as you have said it is okay for them to break the law, who is good or bad in that case is no longer clear

>>82608915
Vision was aiming for Falcon's flight pack, and the fight happened in the first place because of Cap.

>>82609076
>Even when presented with all the same facts a different conclusion come be reached like Bucky needs to be taken down no mater if he was brainwashed and that he could still in fact be dangerous.
No, you are still talking about killing someone without a trial. If you can do it once, you can do it again. And soon you can send a murder list to the Avengers every week.

>>82609076
Stopping a crime in progress isn't breaking the law.

And there's a difference between "taking down" and "shot on sight".

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>>82606709

I like how Zemos plan was to force the Avengers to choose between Cap and Iron man and of course they all went to Cap at the end, because its the side where you don't have to face consequences, were you don't have to feel any remorse, where Wanda can fuck up and thats ok, she'll do better next time, where a hunted terrorist doesn't have to stand before the law to be proven innocent or guilty, where Widow and Hawkeye can just forget about the horrible things they've done in the past, where Cap is always in command and doesn't get to pay for wrong decisions, where noone contradicts his view because he is such a nice guy, where he makes important decisions based on personal matters instead of thinking of the greater good.

Unlike Tony who has to pay for all the damage done, who gets blamed for all the shit because he is a public figure, who always thinks about possible solutions for the future but he is an asshole, so better choose the heroic side.

>>82609112
Which would have caused Falcon to plummet to the ground and become flesh paste. meaning Vision really was intending to kill him.

>>82609112
>The fall that Broke Rhodey's spine in the War Machine armor wouldn't have killed Falcon
K

>>82609151
Iron Man specifically tells Vision to take out Falcon's thrusters, not his wings, so he could glide to the ground.

>>82606709
the way i see it, Tony is a megalomaniac (a typical liberal), and Cap is freedom incarnate.

I think the answer is obvious.

>>82609129
>>82609130
But you said super heroes are allowed to break the law if they think they are doing good. Or is it now only some laws which you have made no clear distinction why apart from appealing to your own morals which aren't universal?


You realise even then that can still lead to it not be clear if they are good or bad? You keep going on about the UN but that is not the point I had a problem with, the issue is you said it is easy to tell when one goes bad and that is clearly not true

>>82609142
>Unlike Tony who has to pay for all the damage done, who gets blamed for all the shit because he is a public figure, who always thinks about possible solutions for the future but he is an asshole, so better choose the heroic side.
If that was the case Tony should be rotting in a maximum security prison for creating Ultron

>>82609179
he clearly didn't have that good an aim/certainty it would hit right but took the shot anyway

>>82609179
As powerful as the blast was it would've have shot through Falcon and he would've been dead before he hit the ground

>>82609169
He said "make him a glider" so it would have been like he lost power but still had intact wings to glide to ground with.

>>82609216
>>82609247

True. It would have hit if Falcon hadn't dodged - but if he didn't dodge enough it could have taken out his wing and he'd end up like Rhodey.

Heck, it's only a matter of time before that happens in combat.

>>82609247
It would have gone through falcon and hit warmachine anyway, falcon just dodged it. Fucking vision.

>>82609198
Again, stopping a crime in progress isn't illegal. The Avengers didn't do anything to Crossbones and co in the beginning until they started their attack.

>>82606709
t'challa

>>82609291
Are you saying Cap broke zero laws in this movie? Are you saying it is impossible to break laws while trying to stop what you think is a crime?

The fact you are unable to actually answer my main point already shows you know I am right

>>82609247
He said "turn his wings into a glider" meaning to disable them so they don't work not destroy it

>>82609300
This. Only one that realized/overheard Zemo's plans.

Also he supports girl on girl fighting, He can't be that bad,

>>82609326
Probably the only law he broke was crossing borders without passing through border control. And that's just an assumption, since it's not shown outright.

The Slovokia Accords weren't ratified by Congress, so as an American he wasn't yet bound by them.

>>82606709
Cap was right about everything except telling Tony what happened to his parents.

>"what if they send us somewhere we don't think we should go? What if we need to go somewhere and they won't let us?"
>"lmao Cap ur talkin out ur ass"
>both of those things end up happening in the movie

Cap was willing to stand down UNTIL he heard there was a shoot-on-sight order for Bucky.
Cap was going to sign the accords UNTIL he found out they were keeping Wanda captive.
Cap was ok with keeping Bucky in custody UNTIL they allowed Zemo to infiltrate his cell and steal a bunch of info on still-unstable supersoldiers.

Every step of the way Cap was willing to compromise and then was let down. And even at the airport he tried to explain the situation and Tony pulled the same "shut up im right ur wrong" shit he pulled in Age of Ultron.

>>82609343
But the blast was enough to completely disable the War Machine armor, if it would have hit it's intended target Falcon would've been fucked

>>82609407
The power source on WM (and IM) armor is what keeps them in the air.

If Falcon's power source is disabled, he can glide to the ground. WM and IM just plummet.

>>82609112
>and the fight happened in the first place because of Cap

Nope Cap tried talking to Tony before the fight and Tony wrote him off as delusional. Fight happened because Tony wouldn't listen. Vision shot Rhodey because Tony told him to take the shot. Tony's fuck up, through and through.

>>82609394
But why didn't Cap keep trying to tell Tony? Especially in the scene where the teams are all lined up? Seemed like the perfect time to step between them and say "look there are Winter Soldiers times five about to be activated, let's put this on hold and go do that first."

>>82609464
Rhodey ordered the shot.

>>82609445
The power source on WM is also buikt into the suit and under thick armored glass. If it can penetrate that it can kill unarmored Falcon.

>>82609142
>this is the assbackwards logic of a starkfag
>ABLOO BLOO BLOO WHY AREN'T WE SHOVING THE FACT WANDA ACCIDENTALLY GOT PEOPLE KILL IN HER FACE AT ALL TIMES
>ITS NOT LIKE THE BOMB GOING OFF ON THE GROUND WOULD OF KILLED A WHOLE LOT MORE PEOPLE OR ANYTHING
>DON'T FORGET TO NOT LET ANYONE KNOW I CREATED ULTRON AND NEARLY CAUSED GLOBAL EXTINCTION

>>82609506
Only if it hits Falcon's body, which it wouldn't if he didn't dodge.

>>82609497
>why didn't Cap just stand there and keep talking while Iron Man punches his face

Gee I dunno anon.

No matter how you slice it Cap was more willing to talk than Tony was. If we're assigning blame for the fight happening Tony takes more of it regardless of how far from perfect Cap was.

I agree with Cap ideologically, but I agreed with Stark when he snapped at Bucky, because I know in the same situation with the same equipment I and anybody else would have reacted in the same way.

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>>82606709
/pol/.

>>82609198
>But you said super heroes are allowed to break the law if they think they are doing good.
The UN is breaking their own laws about due process. It seems you have absolutely no problem with UN not obeying its own laws so we are done here.

on being accountable
Steve
the attempted murder
Tony

>>82609565
No anon. Cap just stops. Like, he tries, what once at the airport scene? If he REALLY did not want to fight keep trying. It's the only part of the movie where it was a bit jarring. Put some of that effort you used to save Bucky and use it to tell Team IM. Don't just keep assuming he won't listen.

But for real, that was a weak point in the film for me. Of course you have to have the "character A tells character B theres another threat but character B doesn't listen" but it seemed really weak at that point.

>>82607019
No. The worst part is about people who say that Avengers need to have 'checks and balances in-universe' are stupid, because even if they all signed the Accords they could all go against it, and who is going to do anything about it? The Accords are stoopid beaucratic nonce-sense.

>>82609553
The beam looked pretty damn powerful. I don't know how you can guarantee it wouldn't punch through his pack and hit him at the base of the neck or something.

>>82609643
>Don't just keep assuming he won't listen.
He literally explained everything and Tony was all like "nah fuck you"

>>82609643
>Don't just keep assuming he won't listen.

This was no assumption. Iron Man didn't listen. Whybis it all on Cap to keep trying to talk over and over when Tony won't even listen for a second?

>>82607019
>no such situation takes place in the movie

Uh, the whole fucking Siberia thing you dumb shit. Watch with your eyes open next time.

>>82609648
The way he was angled and where he holds his head while flying, Vision's beam would of blown right through the back of his head and killed him.

>>82606709
I haven't been here for a week or so now. How did /co/ or the US receive CW?

>>82607212
>In most of the western world you need a license for fucking everything, even owning a dog.
And that's a good thing, you Nazi?

>>82606709
Neither and both. They balanced it well.

>>82606820
I like what Cap said about the accords just passing the blame. It's a Tony thing to do, considering what happened.

>>82609771

Looks like the US liked it a lot, but not as much as the foreigners? I dunno, before it came out here it seemed a lot of people were saying it's the best MCU movie and now almost no one is.

Tony was right about the accords.

Steve was right about Bucky.

>>82609669
He literally did not, iirc. Cap started, Tony interrupted, Cap delivers the "you split the Avngers line", then Underroos shows up. Cap had more opportunities to telly Tony, but didn't. Why not tell him then, or at the team line up moneyshot scene? I guess it's weird to me that Cap, of all people wouldn't keep trying to prevent the fight.

>>82609704
Because Cap tried once before the fight. And that's not enough. Bucky said that the Winter Soldier Force Five could take out a country in a night; that sounds like something you try to convey to other teammates constantly, even they don't listen to you the first time.

I seriously can't believe that Tony and Rhodey think that people like Ross and the UN should have any more control over the strongest military powers on Earth. Conceptually Tony's point of view is better, but he's not looking at how the MCU governments have worked out over the years.

On the flip side, I think Cap and Tony were projecting themselves into their views of other people. Cap has more faith in others however misplaced while Tony sees more of his own mistakes as possibilities in the others.

I wish Clint had more lines to talk about the issues. It seemed like he was getting at how laws can change to suit people's goals when he was going the futurist.

>>82607689
>The Accords was fine as a concept but it is clear no one in-universe really bothered to make sure it worked.

>tfw this is too real

>>82607836
>the Accords is just appeasement for the angry public.
People often forget this

Personally I'm still baffled that Tony's not behind fucking bars over Ultron.

I mean, Wanda shot a bomb into the air (where it killed people) from the ground (where it would've killed people anyway) and suddenly she's public enemy #1.

Tony creates an AI that nearly causes global extinction and he's still giving speeches to MIT.

>>82609839
>Tony interrupted,

Post should have ended there. You keep trying to blame Cap even though he's trying a hell of a lot harder than Tony is to be reasonable. Keep in mind, this isn't the first time Tony outright refuses to consider what Cap says. This happened in both Avengers movies.

Past behavior indicates Tony won't even try to listen. Cap attempts to reason with him anyway. Tony doesn't listen, big surprise.

>>82609815

Steve was lucky about Bucky is more like it

>>82607781
Cap saved Tony from killing an innocent man.

>>82609913

Wanda should be in jail for what she did in AoU. The MCU isn't particularly well written or balanced to be honest

>>82607946
Everyone agrees murder is wrong so that's pretty convenient. That's probably why Cap doesn't break the law to arrest weed dealers or something. It would be too controversial. Being anti-murder is pretty universal though.

>>82608877
>You can't put a coat over War Machine and get him inconspicuous.
Laughed at the image. Thanks.

Cap was right,
>Muh NYC
Literally an alien invasion. Without the Avengers, millions more die, or worse.
>Muh DC
Hydra tried to use Stark Technology to overthrow the US government and kill millions of lives.
>Muh Sokovia
An AI Stark created went bonkers and started its genocidal path of human extinction. Avengers literally saved 95+% of the world's population
>Muh Lagos
Avengers stop an international terrorist and mercenary from stealing a horrible biological weapon and unleashing it on human population centers. Under pressure Scarlet Witch is responsible for the death of upwards of 20 civilians, rather than tens of civilians and Steve Rogers.

Cap would do it again and again and again

>>82608593
She beat the fuck out of Vision who is really her only competition for the title.

>>82606820
A good point that was briefly brought up for Tony's side was the fact that they believed they would be restricted eventually regardless of the accords. The benefit of going with the accords was showing that they were willing to cooperate and would give them more pull than if they were forced into it later.

>>82606709
They were both retarded for not trying to meet half way

Cap: so what if we kill a shit ton of people? lel muh justice was servd

Tony: He killed muh parents while under the control of someone else I'll just kill him that will make it all ok

>>82609809
>a lot of people were saying it's the best MCU movie and now almost no one is.
Really? I'm surprised. It's gotten a lot of hate threads now? This thread seems discussing it pretty well.

>>82610043
But even that is proven wrong when he gives Ross the info on Zemo and Ross just doesn't care

>>82610059
>not thinking it's the best MCU movie = hate

wew lad

>>82609921
I have a legitimate question pertaining to this; Cap is the kind of person that never gives up. We see this in his pursuit of Bucky, a man who looked like he didn't want to be found. He wanted to lay low, be alone, etc, but Cap didn't give up on him. But he did give up on trying to tell Tony about the WS program. Why? Bucky was shown to be resistant in the past and in this movie he initially tried to get away from everyone, but Cap came back. Why didn't Cap put as much effort into telling Tony, who resisted him too?

Reminder that saying Cap cares more about Bucky is a viable and acceptable answer. I think that gives him more depth, though it's kinda obvious he does.

>>82610059
I think post movie hype, I'd rank it below TWS. Something about this movie irks me, I just haven't decided what.

>>82610102
My bad. I just had BvS thread flashbacks

>>82610123
>Something about this movie irks me, I just haven't decided what.
Maybe because it's not a black and white cape movie?

I'll just feel like an idiot parroting what Jay Mike and Rich said on RLM so I'm just going to say they fucking nailed their view on the conflict in this film.

Holding the Heroes accountable for collateral damage is fucking stupid and even if they were being regulated there would still be collateral damage, and most of the drama surrounding bucky could be resolved if people would sit and talk for like 5 minutes instead of just fighting.

>>82610102

This. Winter Soldier, Iron Man and GoTG are all better films. Civil War is still a good film but it's nothing ground breaking

>>82606709
Cap was right.

>>82610123
>He wanted to lay low, be alone, etc, but Cap didn't give up on him. But he did give up on trying to tell Tony about the WS program. Why? Bucky was shown to be resistant in the past and in this movie he initially tried to get away from everyone, but Cap came back. Why didn't Cap put as much effort into telling Tony, who resisted him too?

Probably because underneath Bucky's intentionally-distant demeanor Cap knows his best friend is under there.

Under Tony's ego and self-absorption, deep down, is there a guy who is willing to hear his comrades out? I don't think Cap has ever seen any evidence that there is.

>Half the avengers are fugitives now
>Covered a murder
>Protected the murderer
>Didn't even want to talk stuff out

Who knows OP?

>>82610206

>Didn't read the accords
>Thought Bucky bombed the UN at first
>Still beat the shit out of cops that were just doing their job

I wonder what Steve would have done if Bucky was the one to bomb the UN

>>82610243
He would turn Bucky and Himself in, asking for leinency on Falcon.

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>>82608710
No he wasn't, he was trying to close the silo door.

If he wanted to kill Bucky, he could have just used the laser to do it instead of just using it to slow down Cap.

It's weird, because Stark seems to alternate between trying to brutally subdue Bucky and outright blowing his head off. He was so unhinged at that point, I'm not even sure Stark knew what he wanted to do with Bucky.

>>82610243
>just doing their job
>shoot to kill orders
>throwing grenades in the window without identifying themselves as police or giving Bucky a chance to surrender
>just doing their job

>>82610275

Yeah, sure he would. Cap is better than you anon. Your laws mean nothing to him

>>82608578
But he didn't break single fucking law.
Mindcontrol removes agency. Is a gun to blame for being used in murder you fucktard?

>>82610185
>Under Tony's ego and self-absorption, deep down, is there a guy who is willing to hear his comrades out? I don't think Cap has ever seen any evidence that there is.
I'm pretty sure Starks too worried about the only family he knows becoming kill-on-sight fugitives to care to much about the winter soldiers at that moment

>>82610185
>Under Tony's ego and self-absorption, deep down, is there a guy who is willing to hear his comrades out?
Yeah, there is, but like you said, Cap wasn't the one to see it, or at least didn't see it enough. I mean we've seen Tony humble down before, but I guess Cap hasn't seen that side of him.

>>82610155
>Maybe because it's not a black and white cape movie?
No, no, there's something else, like little charm? I think it feels more like a bridge than any other Marvel movie. Probably because of BP and Spider-Man, and the fact that it'll lead into IW. Also I think the whole best friends fighting thing wasn't too big a conflict for Cap and Tony. There weren't the closest of friends, after all.

>>82610300
They do that because they THINK he's a terrorist, of course they won't give him a chance. But then again Cap attacked cops and that's clearly against the law.

>>82610300

He's a well known super terrorist a shoot to kill order is warranted

>>82610314
Our laws, when unjust mean nothing to him. Cap, even when a tiny manlet has always had a strong, and accurate moral compass

>>82610325
>kill-on-sight fugitives

The fact that this is even a consideration shows how fucked up Ross is.

>>82610357

Keep in mind that Cap didn't know Buck wasn't the terrorist at that point. All he has is Buckys word

>>82610367
Theyd just say he tried to reach for a weapon and they took no risks. You know, the Bin Laden story

>>82606709
Cap of course

Goverment control is always bad in fiction

Also muh friendship and mind control

It's his name on the title

>>82610360
>>82610357

Loki and Strucker were both taken alive.

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>>82606717
Well from my point of view the Jedi are evil.

>>82610367
>All he has is Buckys word.
We can say the same about the cops. What if Bucky was lying then?

>>82610364

Nothing about taking out Bucky was unjust

>>82610385
Cap DID know they were going to kill him. Even if he was the terrorist you don't execute suspects in cold blood.

>>82610385
How did bucky teleport from Berlin to Bucharest?
It was a setup.

>>82610430
American Law, and UN rules states otherwise

>>82610441

He wouldn't have handed him over. The point is that Cap doesn't trust the government so who would he hand him over to? He would have had no other choice but to go on the run with him

>>82610430
How about sending the avengers to aprehend the fugitive super soldier non lethaly for questioning and detainment instead of sending normal soldiers as a KILL SQUAD who are more likely to actually get killed

>>82610425
>What if Bucky was lying then?

Then they were still executing a suspect in cold blood, they failed to identify themselves as police, and AMD AND AND they opened up by throwing grenades in the window. For a movie where the avengers get blamed for carelessness that takes the cake. What if Bucky WAS a terrorist and he had hostages? Oops, the cops killed them all. Sorry about that.

>>82610477
>How about sending the avengers to aprehend the fugitive super soldier non lethaly

I agree. The Avengers should have been sent. You know who stopped them from doing that? Cap.

>>82606709

Both.

Registration isn't an inherently bad thing; if a guy can blow shit up with the power of his mind, then that should probably be noted in a file somewhere. Those kind of people need to have accountability.

But you can't make those people fight for you, either. More than that, most government bodies are so corrupt or mired in red tape and bureaucracy to be entirely ineffectual.

It's like communism; a perfect idea on paper, but complete bullshit in practice.

>>82610470
He handed him over to War Machine. Obviously he had no problem taking Bucky into custody.

>>82610520
>You know who stopped them from doing that? Cap.

Literally how

>>82610537

Because they were completely surrounded not by choice

>>82610507
So, according to you
>What if Bucky was brainwashed and killed Stark's parents and other people while in said state? Oops, sorry about that.

>>82610441
Looking at the governments of the MCU, Not only was Cap right, Tony was literally as wrong as can possibly be. Not only are the governments inherently corrupt and restricting, there's always the constant threat that fucking Hydra is giving you the Intel and green lights.

>>82610557

He said he was the only one who could bring Bucky in alive which we know is untrue and went after him without his team

>>82610572
War Machine was the first person sent who didn't try to kill them. They were surrounded by cops and still fought their way out.

>>82610607

Yeah then they were surrounded, as in a big circle, by war machine, Black Panther and all the cops. It wasn't by choice

>>82610598
None of the other Avengers even tried to go. The choice was always Cap or the death squad

>>82610596

Zola was right. If Cap can't trust democracy anymore then Hydra won

>>82610578
Same would apply. He can't be held accountable for actions he had no control over.
It's not like being inebriated and running someone over, it's closer to being forced to do something under duress

>>82610659

Cap is their leader

>>82610642
>>82610598


You guys need to compare notes. Did Cap go because he thought only he could bring Bucky in alive, or because he didn't want Bucky brought in at all?

>>82606709
Neither of them were right.

>>82610707

Well I'm paraphrasing but Cap does say "I'm the only one who can bring Buck in without getting killed" or something like that. Does Cap hate Vision? He doesn't seem to implement him all that much

>>82609988
>Muh NYC
Alien invasion caused by one of Avengers members' brother.
>Muh DC
>Hydra tried to use Stark Technology
Nice blaming others skills you have there, Fury.
>Muh Lagos
>rather than tens of civilians and Steve Rogers
Nobody would care about bunch of nigerians. But instead SW killed wakadians. Also Rogers was the reason Crossbones decided to blow himself in the first place.

>>82610689
And yet half the team doesn't follow him in this film. And the ones who did, would be considered criminals for it, nust like Falcon was. There was no option to bring all the Avengers in, sanctioned by the accords, to take down Bucky.

>>82610681
While I agree with that and the fact that Steve had good reasons to doubt the government, I really can't justify how he had the right to meddle with such a conflict.

>>82610002
And then War Machine fucked her up with simple sound wave gun.

>>82610743
Ok so the other guy is completely wrong and Cap did intend to surrender as soon as they weren't fighting for their lives.

>>82610783
They went in grenades first trying to kill Bucky, that's why

>>82610789

/co/ really needs to stop treating these fights as DBZ power levels. Wanda may be the most powerful person in the world but an average chuckle fuck sniper could still blow her head off

Lets say Bucky was allowed trial, and the best attorney Stark can buy. How could they prove he was under mind control during any of his killings? They don't have the red book with his trigger commands.

Also. It's clear that Bucky didn't commit the bombing. He has vivid memories of his mind controlled murders, yet was shocked to learn of his most wanted status for the bombing.

So we should be asking, as viewers, who bombed the UN? Zemo?

>>82610596
Technically, any Hydra influence over the political spectrum was demolished when the entirety of SHIELDs information was leaked to the Internet, since all the hydra-loyal politicians and officials were exposed

>>82610790

Well the whole thing doesn't make much sense because if Cap went after Buck at all he's still breaking the law so if he were to hand him in he would also have to hand over himself.

>>82610878
>Lets say Bucky was allowed trial, and the best attorney Stark can buy. How could they prove he was under mind control during any of his killings? They don't have the red book with his trigger commands.

Hydra files leaked to the internet?

>So we should be asking, as viewers, who bombed the UN? Zemo?

The movie spells out that it was Zemo

>>82610885
True, but if hundreds of Chinese spies in high places of the US power structure were outed tomorrow, how long would it take to trust the government again?

>>82610885
>all the hydra-loyal politicians and officials were exposed

not according to Agents of SHIT

>>82610878
They told you it was Zemo, pay attention next time.

They found prosthetics in his apartment that looked like Bucky.

>>82610878
Zemo

They mentioned prosthetics and a wig

>>82610936
>TV
>canon

>>82610913
>Hydra files leaked to the internet?
This. It's how Zemo got his hands on the trigger words.

Was that Kree blood they used to make those other Winter Soldiers?

>>82610967

>Black widow leaked Hydra files all over the internet

I still don't see why this was a good idea

>>82610967
No, pretty sure he got the trigger words from the red book.

But how would they explain Bucky's longevity without cryo-sleep? Would a court buy that he did everything willingly, and was willingly put in cryo between jobs for 90 years and simply schose to do absolutely nothing ever outside of murdering and cryo?

I don't think it's possible to pinpoint who was 'right', but I believe that Tony had the best strategy. His plan was:

>FOR GODS SAKE ROGERS, SIGN THIS SHIT SO WE WON'T BECOME INTERNATIONAL CRIMINALS! WE CAN DEAL WITH THIS SHIT LATER!

He had no intention of following the accords by the letter and hinted that we would twist and turn it around to get what he/they wanted.

>>82610901
>he's still breaking the law

Who cares? He's breaking the law to save someone's life

>>82611024

I don't think the government would send the Avengers to carry out assassinations anyway. Cap singing that paper wouldn't really mean anything

>>82609612
Are we EVER going to see him again?

>>82611022
He's saying that the leaked files led to the red book

>>82611024
>FOR GODS SAKE ROGERS, JUST LET THEM MURDER YOUR FRIEND NOW AND WE CAN DEAL WITH THIS SHIT LATER!

>>82611048

We know why Cap did it but all I'm saying is he made himself a fugitive so bringing in Bucky also means handing himself over

>>82611071
Right but would they use the leaked files to go confiscate the red book to use as evidence in court? Hard to say without knowing exactly what was in the files.

>>82611072
Stark's condition was that they bring Bucky and Cap in alive (though to be fair, I guess Steve didn't know that.)

When Black "Literally Government" Panther jumps to the anti Government side, you know there's something to Cap's side. And it's not just the glorious gay enhanced human orgies either.

>>82611079
I think he's fine with that

>>82611024
I'd like to point out that Cap said something like the Accords could enable the super heroes to pass the blame to the UN or any governing body giving them the stop and go signal, and that's such a Tony thing to do given his current circumstance.

>>82610783
He knew Bucky was innocent and that he was going to be executed on sight.
Even after evidence that proved Bucky was innocent came up, they still wanted him executed

>>82611123
>Stark's condition was that they bring Bucky and Cap in alive

Why did the grenade parade show up then?

>>82611123
Cap almost said yes until he knew Wanda was being held. He knew Tony would react that way and could react way worse than that.

>>82611140

Then he's short sighted. If he was also taken in he would be in no place to help Bucky later on

>>82611165
>He knew Bucky was innocent

Not at first

>>82611193
And if Bucky was killed he definitely wouldn't get help. What's your point?

>>82606709

Steve was right in the sense not to trust the accords, but Tony was justified in trying to do what he felt was right to prevent further mistakes.

Then again Cap wanted to save Bucky and had his own personal agenda because of that, and Iron-Man was guilt tripped because of his own agenda.

In a sense they were both right but both wrong. At the start of the movie they both looked like 2 heroes doing the right thing. At the end they both looked like 2 heros doing the wrong thing. I didn't come away siding with one of them. Tony wanted to kill Bucky for killing his parents which made him snap emotionally. Steve hid a precious secret from him and Bucky of course murdered Tony's parents. They both were in the wrong and right and thats the great dynamic.

Honestly i'm just glad we can actually have these conversations. This movie could've easily been 'Make Cap look flawless, make tony look like a asshole' like the comics.

>>82611216
Still doesn't change >>82610507

>>82611220

That the Avengers are all incompetent

>>82611172
Because that was before Stark was given 36 hours to bring them in and they weren't the Avengers.

>Shield, fucking Shield is destroyed by Hydra in WS.

>B-but this is the UN! No way that shit could happen again.

No Tony is so fucking wrong I now believe he just stoled the Iron Man armor and everyone of his inventions, no one that smart could be that utterly fucking stupid.

>>82611253
So it does nothing to change the fact that they were going to kill him in his apartment and Steve's choices were either become a fugitive, or let him be killed.

>>82611072
They never said in the accords they would murder Bucky. That was on the local police force.

>>82611300
>I now believe he just stoled the Iron Man armor and everyone of his inventions, no one that smart could be that utterly fucking stupid.

kek

>>82611327
The fucking GSG9 are not police.

Why was this movie so pointless? Nothing was accomplished by the end. Just back to square one. Bravo Marvel.

>>82611350
They are a kind of police force.

>>82611380
They're a military force.

>>82611319
And then Stark gave him another option and he instead chose to risk everyone's lives and have his comrades become fugitives from the law, separating a number of them from their families.

>>82611384
Police forces can be military, Anon.

Grenzschutzgruppe 9 der Bundespolizei (Border Protection Group 9 of the Federal Police)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSG_9

Inb4, wikipedia is shit.

>>82611427
Cap's hand was forced that time.

>>82611300
He is pro Accords because he can shift the blame.

>I-I didn't really kill your kid, it was the government who told us to go there

>>82611427
By that point he had info on the other Winter Soldiers and was on his way to stop them. Stark had an option to not be fugitives by letting Zemo get away.

>“We weren’t interested in enforcing a point of view that might limit a conversation walking out of the theater,” co-director Joe Russo told io9. “We always felt from the beginning that the most compelling story we could tell is if at the end of the film, when you walked out, you were arguing with your friends and family about who was right. It was important to us to honor both points of view.”

...

>“We wanted [audiences to choose a side, but we didn’t want anyone to be right or wrong,” said co-writer Christopher Markus. “The appeal of it is no one is clearly on the side of righteousness. There’s a good argument to be made [with Iron Man] and there’s a good argument to be made [with Captain America].”

http://io9.gizmodo.com/civil-wars-writers-and-directors-explain-why-you-should-1775317717

>>82611427
At that point, they thought there were bigger threats, which kind of justified leaving their families.

Tony is wrong about the Accords
Cap is wrong about Bucky

>>82611549
>when you walked out, you were arguing with your friends and family about who was right.
Probably one of the things I liked in this movie. It might not be TWS, but it had this.

>>82611474
By what?

>>82611573
>Cap is wrong about Bucky

In what way? Bucky was mind controlled for years so he didn't deserve to be killed over that, and he wasn't even the UN bomber so all the people gunning for him were going after the wrong guy.

>>82611612
Turn himself and Bucky in peacefully, and let Zemo get away, or become further fugitives and try to stop Zemos plan to "topple an empire"

>>82611230
>to prevent further mistakes.

I don't believe it was ever about preventing shit. IMO Tony was trying to save face, regroup and think a better course of action for the Avengers.

I agree: these conversations are great.

>>82611612
See >>82611551 >>82611511

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>>82610524
>communism
>perfect on paper

>>>/out/

Both sides have valid arguments.

A group as powerful as The Avengers should definitely be regulated and they should operate with respect to the laws of wherever their missions take them. However, following the orders of a political based group has fundamental problems. Corruption is a huge potential issue, especially in a setting where Hydra exists. Furthermore, there's the problem of different political agendas influencing how The Avengers are ordered. There are instances in the UN where one government's goals resulted in other governments agreeing to laws and regulations their own countries don't really benefit from. Not to mention, several members in the UN are places that lack freedom and democracy, which goes against some of the core values of The Avengers. Of course one of the biggest problems is one Cap brings up, that The Avengers could be ordered to not aid in certain catastrophes due to political reasons. Also, how long does the approval process take? Is Cap going to let innocent people die because the UN committee still needs time to review all the facts of a super attack?

It's also a little silly when nearly every situation Ross mentioned had far reduced collateral damage thanks to The Avengers. It's ultimately unavoidable, and they're damn good at reducing it. If anything, Tony should be solely held accountable for the Ultron business. Maybe Wanda too for setting off Banner in Africa. That's it.

Iron Man has literally never been right about anything

>>82610524
>>82611687

Communism is not something you should try to apply to real life. It's unfeaseble, but the ideals are necessary so we won't go back to the industrial revolution era work policies.

If only one of the Avengers was a near endlessly rich man who could bankroll repair efforts for any Avengers conflict zone.

>>82611676
He knew that if he could blame the government for collateral damage old black women would spend their time protesting outside Congress instead of personally hassling him.

Like some other anon said, government control was never going to reduce collateral damage. The first thing the guys going after Bucky do in the movie is start throwing grenades at him.

The Avengers get blamed when a grenade used bybtheir enemies kills civilians. And yet no one bats an eye when the cops throw grenades into a room without checking to see who's in it. So much for accountability.

>>82606709
Neither of them. That's the point.

>>82611644
The problem was that he could still be mind controlled with the right trigger phrases, butbit never occurred to Cap that this could be used to create havoc again.

>>82611777
That doesn't mean he deserves to die

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>>82611738
The ideals aren't necessary at all, actually. Do you know anything about communism?

Go read up on it; I've actually read Das Kapital and the Communist Manifesto, and it's a ludicrous idea.

The ideals all hinge on this idea: human nature is completely based on the means of production and class separates you and I more than anything else.

This is fundamentally incorrect.

>>82611777
So the solution to that is just to kill him? Not, I dunno, have a rule where no one is allowed in the room alone with him or something?

>>82606709
They were both dumb assholes.

The Accords were retarded, so Cap had a point there, but Ironman had a point that not signing on would just lead to something worse (like arresting the Avengers)

I guess technically then I agree with Tony? Cap was right in the moment but in the long term Tony was more logical. The problems with the Accords could eventually be fixed, but outright antagonizing and refusing to compromise with the countries of the world for the sake of "muh Bucky" only made things worse

>Black widow feels guilty about mih red ledger
>Bucky's past is dragged back out when the bad guy uses a literal red ledger to control him

How deep does the pottery go?

>>82611795
Stark wanted to prevent that. Cap made it more likely to happen.

>>82611923
If Cap did nothing he would have been killed at the beginning. How are you not following this? Stark didn't do shit to prevent the death squad from being called in.

>>82611876

At the beginning of the movie they were both right in their own ways.

At the end they were both wrong in their own ways.

I fucking love how perfect the dynamic of this movie is. Russos actually pulled it off.

>>82611230
>Honestly i'm just glad we can actually have these conversations
This, actually.

>>82611876
>but outright antagonizing and refusing to compromise

That's not what happened. 3 different times Cap is given no choice but to rebel. Tony was the one who refused compromise.

This is all fun, but I think we can all agree that that shot of Cap vs Iron Man was a damn good, cover worthy moneyshot.

Moore, superheroes were a mistake

>>82611960
Except go in their place at the airport so the Avengers wouldn't be forced to fight and hurt regular soldiers, perhaps even lose one or two of their own to snipers?

Stark was trying to prevent the goon squad from being called in specifically because he knew they were trigger happy morons that wouldn't bother with arresting them and someone on either side would get seriously injured or killed.

>>82611923
Dude gets captured. Dude escapes,capture, assaults dozens of people, steals a helicopter. All of this after evading capture, causing a good deal of damage. After supposedly bombing the UN. After being a Hydra Pawn for decades.

He was getting the death penalty

>>82612011
I acknowledge that it looked good but I didn't feel that "hype" like the others here. I just thought "and there's the moneyshot"

>>82612063
I think the use of slomo ruined it, just a bit

What I want to know is, how in the fuck did Spiderman lose to Captain America (haven't watched the film yet)? He should be loads faster and stronger.

>>82612102
Lack of experience.

>>82612102
Cap's a smarter fighter at this point.

>>82611815
Communism is bad because it's based around everyone having the same resources and materials in the name of equality, rather than everyone having the same opportunities in the name of equality. Furhermore, capitalism, for all its flaws, is an economic model rather than a style of government, so in a democratic society we can change it to better serve the people if that's what the people desire. Communism places so much power in the government at the cost of personal freedom and the pursuit of happiness.

>>82612130
So how did Cap outsmart him, then?

>>82612049
And by the time the airport happened there was already a bigger threat Cap was trying to go after and Tony wouldn't let him. That wasn't about keeping Bucky out of custody, it was about not being hamstrung on the way to carry out a time-critical mission.

>>82612005
Please tell me when he was "give no choice"

Saving Bucky wasn't something he was forced to do, it was in-character, but not the logical choice. Bucky made his own bed my not turning himself in. If anything Cap should have incapacitated Bucky and brought him in so he could prove his innocence, not helped him escape and assaulting officers.

>>82611058
Hugo Weaving hated doing the makeup so I doubt it.

>>82611876
>arresting the Avengers
There would be no arresting the Avengers as Avengers would be those that signed up.
The rest just wouldn't be heroing anymore.

>>82612247
Fuck Hugo. Replace him.

>>82612202
>Bucky made his own bed my not turning himself in

So do you lick boots all the time, or just on the weekends?

>>82612277
You're right, he looked way less guilty hiding out from the authorities. If he believed he was innocent he should have come forward to prove it.

>>82612202
Three fucking times.

1. He hears about the hit squad sent after Bucky. He specifically tells Widow he wants to bring him in alive. Not help him escape, but bring him in alive. He fights against the assassination squad, and Panther who were trying to kill him. He doesn't try fighting or running away from War Machine because obviously War Machine wasn't about to execute anyone.

2. He picks up a pen, ready to sign the accords until Stark tells him Wanda is already being held captive. He was willing to compromise until he realized "compromise" is just Ross's way of saying "fuck you"

3. After Zemo successfully infiltrates the jail and everything, Cap decides to go after him to try to stop him from getting the other Winter Soldiers. Iron Man shows up to stop him and he tries to explain but Iron Man won't listen. Is he supposed to just let Zemo get away, or what?

>>82612357
Just like Snowden lol

>>82610281
Stark SMASH!!!!!!!

File: barris.png (134KB, 2537x3753px) Image search: [Google]

134KB, 2537x3753px

>>82610423
And you have a right to your opinion.
I agree with you

>>82606849
the checking comes AFTER
not before
that's the problem with the accords.

File: 1454619678934.jpg (90KB, 960x640px)

90KB, 960x640px

>>82612160
No, communism is bad because it is fundamentally wrong.

There are far more important things that divide us than class.

Anyone starting to burn out on superhero team up movies specifically?

>>82606709

Iron Man, because as he pointed out, there was no debate to be had. The countries of the world had already ordered them to comply. It was either comply and try to make the best of it, or essentially become revolutionaries rather than accept any oversight. Cap's solution was just to attempt to punch out the world.

Am I the only one who remembered Iron Man's motivation during the airport fight? "You can either come with me, or the JSOC team's not gonna be as nice". Not those exact words, but that's the gist of what he said.

>>82611172
>Why did the grenade parade show up then?

They were flashbangs. Bucky was being apprehended by the police, not soldiers.

>>82612360
>1.
>bring him in alive
By talking to him? He was just standing there waiting for kommando to show up.
>2.
He has already broke the law and Tony was offering him a chance to walk out free.
>3.
He could turn Bucky in and let Tony's Avengers deal with Zemo. They would still find the dead guy and Bucky's face/wig.

>>82609142
Finally, someone with a clear mind.

>>82612504
Honestly, this movie just wanted me to see the characters of the world interact more. Obviously the big plan is Infinity War. But they could so many places from here. US Agent, Cyborg War Machine, Thunderbolts.

>>82612554

>By talking to him? He was just standing there waiting for kommando to show up.

Is it a problem that he tried using his words on a non-hostile target for a minute rather than instantly start fighting?


>He has already broke the law and Tony was offering him a chance to walk out free.

A chance that inbolved Wanda being held priaoner. Obviously he wasn't ok with that.
>let Tony's Avengers deal with Zemo.

Tony already said he didn't believe him. Tony's team wasn't about to investigate shit. He gave them no choice.

>>82612554
>1
He was talking Bucky down when kommando booted the door in.
>2
What law could he have possibly broken in saving a life, and bringing Bucky in quiet, and who would convict captain america for that offense?

but also, you're asking a WW2 hero to sign away his freedom to act to a group of people already removing that group of people's freedom.
>3
Bucky was the navigator, Tony also refused to listen, after which actual solid evidence is discovered but Ross still wants Bucky's head.

>>82612682
>>82612801
You seriously think Cap is retarded enough to think Bucky would turn himself in? The only way was to subdue him before /k/ barged in.

Also would you believe Cap?
>Bucky dindu nufin and some evil psychiatrist is trying to revive a squad of Hydra supersoldiers.
>I'm totally not bullshiting you so my friend doesn't go to jail.

>>82612801
you're asking a WW2 hero to sign away his freedom to act
There was no freedom to act. Either you sign in and you do shit you're told or you do nothing. There can be no Avengers outside of accords.

>>82606709
Tony is objectively in the right.

>>82606809
Can someone explain this to me, or tell me what x men comics to read to understand the mutant revolution?

>>82612381
lmao that guy got fucked

>>82612901
> You seriously think Cap is retarded enough to think Bucky would turn himself in?

What makes you so sure Bucky wouldn't? If talking didn't work Cap still had the option to subdue him by force later. No reason he has to start with force. You're supposed to start at the lowest level of force necessary and escalate as needed. So yeah, starting out talking while realizing you might have to forcibly subdue later makes sense. No going in guns and grenades blazing from the start. You can always escalate a situation but it's really fucking hard to de-escalate. This is basic shit.

>Also would you believe Cap?

Remember 2 years ago Cap was declared a fugitive and it turned out he was being framed by the biggest conspiracy in history? Yeah I'd give him the benefit of the doubt.

> There can be no Avengers outside of accords.

There were Avengers for two movies with no accords. This is objectively wrong.

>>82613083
>This is objectively wrong.
You can't be this stupid.
With accords the only places Avengers could operate would be some 3rd world shitholes not even Hydra is interested in.
If they tried going to any of those 117 countries that signed in they would be treated as terrorists.

Not to mention they wouldn't get money from Tony anymore.

>>82613083
>No reason he had to start with force
>Grenades in
>Breach
>Fire
>no reason he has to start with force

>>82612939
Registration/accountability makes the most sense absolutely. But trusting and executing the will of the UN and those that signed the accords?
Especially after Caps experiences with Hydra/SHIELD his steadfast opposition makes a lot of sense, then add in the Bucky/Zemo plot and his actions are totally believable.

>>82613181
I was talking about him and Bucky. Obviously when the guys with grenades showed up he didn't have an opportunity to talk to them, and he didn't.

When it was him and Bucky though, talking and then maybe using force later was viable.

>>82613175
They have stealth jets that no one could track; they would certainly have a chance.

>>82613275
>They have stealth jets that no one could track; they would certainly have a chance.

That would make them more like some kind of suicide squad than Avengers.

>>82613343
Ok...maybe that's better than not being allowed to go after actual threats.

Case in point, Siberia. They got in and out of there with no problem. If they waited on Ross's go-ahead they never would have gone.

In a perfect world? Registration, and regulation are great ideas! But the MCU (and our world) are far from perfect. Remember, this is a world where a super Illuminati infiltrated every facet of the most powerful government of the world and planned to have complete global control of the world on their terms. The governments of the MCU are big enough. There's no need to make them even BIGGER

And when you get to the nitty and the gritty, For every life lost in conflicts involving the avengers before this, there were millions(if not more) lives saved.

>>82613414
They wouldn't be able to operate so easily without money.
Besides after few missions inside UN Tony's Avengers would be sent to fuck their shit up.

>>82613491
Sadly, the Avengers don't have an endlessly rich member within its ranks

It would've been way more creative if the government made their own superhuman squad of heroes

>>82613528
They have Tony as Avengers are those that signed up accords.
I don't think Cap can count on Pym for cash support.

>>82613491
>They wouldn't be able to operate so easily without money.

And it would be even harder to operate with Ross as your boss.


>Besides after few missions inside UN Tony's Avengers would be sent to fuck their shit up.

Not even Tony can track the jets. As long as they don't stay in one place too long they can get away.

>>82606709
Disney

>>82613596
>Hank, we need mo-
>NO
>Fine, but this is a great way to stick it to stark
>WHATEVER YOU NEED, YOU GOT IT

>>82613638
>not funding the Avengers by selling stolen smoothie machines on the black market

>>82613638
Well maybe it wasn't the best argument.

Still you're making Cap invading free countries because of "muh freedom".

>>82613676
>not funding the Avengers by making damn good smoothies and waffles

>>82613676
>Selling the smoothie machines
>Not just keeping them for the smoothies

>>82613722
>>82613715
>Civil War II is just a battle of which Avengers can make better smoothies and waffles

>>82613703

Well the people who would have given him authority to do so were going to keep his teammate hostage.

Also how far do you need the state's cock rammed down your throat to truly care about an imaginary line on the ground?